Author Topic: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes  (Read 2069 times)

webguy

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A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« on: December 13, 2017, 10:56:52 PM »
Hi! I’m kinda new to this sub forum but I browse occasionally for tax info. Thanks to all of you tax masters for the great information!  I have a quick question. I’d ask my CPA but he’s really unresponsive (I need to find a new one!) so thought I’d ask you fine people instead:

I run my own small business and pay quarterly estimated state and federal taxes. I heard that the state and property tax deduction might be going away in 2018. I’m planning to pay our 2017 4th quarter state taxes before Dec 31 so we can deduct it this year, but can I also prepay any of our 2018 state estimated taxes now in 2017 so that I can deduct them?

Also, if I have a mortgage and property taxes are paid from escrow/rolled into the mortgage payment then is it still possible to prepay them?

If it helps; I’m in MN, USA, business is an LLC filing as an s-Corp, MAGI will probably be around $850-900k. Property taxes around $8k/year.

Thanks so much for any help or insight you can provide!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 11:06:18 PM by webguy »

jpdx

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 11:56:12 PM »
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 12:05:10 AM by jpdx »

Undecided

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 08:27:14 AM »
The latest is that the House/Senate conference bill is going to allow up to $10,000 of combined SALT and property tax deductions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/us/politics/tax-bill-republicans-deal.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Isn’t that a “so what?” for normally-situated taxpayers? It’s the fact of the limitation, substantially below the level of the standard deduction, that will keep people from itemizing. If anything, it’s more galling to have them all acknowledged as justifiable types of deductions, but set up so they can’t be used. The whole concept seems backwards, to me, with itemised deductions being recognised for generations as appropriate for forced costs beyond the “standard” ones.

As somewhat of an aside, I live in an area that has one of the highest concentrations of telecommuters (over 15% of the workforce). It is also in a state with one of the highest income tax rates. The immediate area is the most vibrant, and the economically healthiest, portion of our congressional district. People choose to live here despite the high tax burden, but I’m really surprised that our Republican representative doesn’t seem more concerned about the fact that elimination of the SALT deduction will negatively affect the district in the relative comparison to a neighbouring state when telecommuters think about where to live.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 12:04:17 PM by Undecided »

Sibley

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 12:11:58 PM »
Webguy, I think the answer to your question depends on if you'll likely hit the maximum on the SALT deduction going forward.

I haven't done a ton (really any) research into the details of the tax bill, but considering it just passed House and Senate and is being sent to Trump's desk, I guess it's time for me to dig in.

Babybalrog

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 03:32:01 PM »
I was reading earlier today that the Congress put a provision in the bill to not let prepaid taxes to be deductible this year. Probably to counteract what we've all been thinking.

I'm a red panda

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 03:36:06 PM »
I was reading earlier today that the Congress put a provision in the bill to not let prepaid taxes to be deductible this year. Probably to counteract what we've all been thinking.

I thought that was for income taxes.

salmp01

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 08:19:46 PM »
I live in MN and my property taxes are escrowed.  I pre-payed my property taxes.  I'm thinking that my mortgage company will refund the escrow amount but I haven't contacted them yet.  I live in Hennepin county and contacted them about pre-paying.  They said I could pay up the amount of my estimated 2018 taxes so I sent them a check. 

Katzilla

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2017, 07:54:39 AM »
You can prepay and deduct 2018 property taxes, but not SALT. For Hennepin County in MN, where I live, the 2018 property tax payment must be RECEIVED by Dec 29 (not postmarked).

webguy

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 01:29:39 PM »
Thanks for the advice guys.  I pre-paid our 2018 property taxes this week!

lampstache

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 08:52:12 AM »
If you're still looking for a new CPA, check out Pitzl & Pitzl at this link:   http://pitzlcpa.com/about-pitzl-pitzl-pa/our-team/dan-pitzl-cpa/

My broker and a few realtors on the team use him for tax purposes. Good luck!

Also, paid my 2018 property taxes yesterday too!

CoffeeAndDonuts

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 11:40:06 AM »
MN S-Corp Owner here too. In fact, just moved back MN this month and so am contemplating Hennepin County prop taxes.

A few thoughts after way too much time anticipating this over the last month and doing intense calculations in the last couple days.

Prepaying income taxes - No
The op asked about paying estimated taxes for 2017, not pre-paying but since this gets confusing to those that don't do estimated taxes and it was mentioned, I'm addressing it.

It's clear you can NOT pre-pay your 2018 state income taxes and get a deduction in 2017.

Paying (MAYBE) or Overpaying (PROBABLY NOT) 2017 taxes before Dec 31
This is a complicated one.

Firstly, given the very high income of the OP, it's very reasonable to assume they are paying over $10k in state income taxes. If that's presumably the case in 2018, the moving any state income or property tax payments (more on that below) back to 2017 makes sense.

Remember that the payment date for state income taxes determines which year it's deductible within so paying Q4/2017 estimated income taxes in 2017 makes them deductible in 2017.

Another factor is tax rate arbitrage. If your tax rate is higher today than in the future, taking the deduction now is worthwhile. That's likely a factor as rates decline in 2018 but may also be driven by variable income of the company. In my case, we have a historically strong year in 2017. I hope, but wouldn't bank, on 2018 being better. So 2017, for us, is a higher income and higher rate year than 2018 is likely to be.

BUT... my income's no where near the OP's and I appear likely to trigger AMT. According to my calculations, any additional payment toward state income taxes will increase deductions for 2017 (great) but be negated by AMT (boo).

So, I'm going to pay my Q4/2017 estimated payments in 2018. That will ensure I've got at least $10k in state income taxes to deduct in 2018, even if our business has a down year.

Also, as a side note, overpaying state taxes shouldn't be excessive. Take care here if you choose to. Absent the AMT, it can recover the relative rate difference by the amount of the overpayment. IRS doesn't take kindly to massive overpayments though so this strategy, if not killed by your AMT and broader situation, may be useful but doesn't scale all that well.

Prepaying property taxes
In the meantime though, I'm going to prepay my property taxes to Hennepin County (today I think) and to our other home elsewhere. That plus not paying my Q4/2017 state taxes puts me right on the edge of AMT as best I can tell.

Meanwhile, even if it turns out not to have a tax savings, the fact that I pushed my Q4/2017 state taxes into 2018 thus surely hitting $10k on state income taxes alone means that any property tax deductions in 2018 would be lost no matter what so why not take the chance.

For those wondering about my speculation of my 2018 prop tax pre-payment being deductible or not, I'm referring to this https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irs.gov%2Fnewsroom%2Firs-advisory-prepaid-real-property-taxes-may-be-deductible-in-2017-if-assessed-and-paid-in-2017&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGqfVXnwWq7hNR0edoOb2Tbtwt6dg.

DAF - On another note
My strategy instead is to take a bunch of long-term capital gain equities instead and dump them into our Donor Advised Fund. We staged this several weeks ago so we were ready to pull the trigger. Glad we did.

Since charity is not subject to AMT, that's a more effective tax strategy for our situation right now.

Sadly, we'll forgo charity for several years after this. It's a big move for us but one that we've been committed to for a long-time to make a bigger priority.

wenchsenior

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Re: A question about pre-paying state/property taxes
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2017, 08:42:30 AM »
Right now, the IRS is apparently issuing 'guidelines' that 2018 property taxes can only be deducted  in 2017 if your county has already conducted the assessment for 2018 (or the part of 2018 that you are prepaying).

So in order to deduct, it looks like you have to 1) live in a county that will accept prepayment (mine will not); and 2) be paying taxes that have actually been assessed rather than estimated. 

So no dice for us, but some people likely will be able to swing this. 

And of course, the official IRS rules might change from the current guidelines.