Author Topic: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?  (Read 15427 times)

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2018, 04:30:54 PM »
just like you can build wealth and eat out our buying monster trucks you can build wealth while doing anything as long as youre saving something it doesnt mean that should be promoted.

Sorry, but the false equivalence between eating out/buying trucks (subtracting from your net wealth) and paying down mortgage (adding to your net wealth -- but likely more slowly than index investing) is just ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous when you look at the math both would be better habits for you than paying down your mortgage.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2018, 05:45:55 PM »
just like you can build wealth and eat out our buying monster trucks you can build wealth while doing anything as long as youre saving something it doesnt mean that should be promoted.

Sorry, but the false equivalence between eating out/buying trucks (subtracting from your net wealth) and paying down mortgage (adding to your net wealth -- but likely more slowly than index investing) is just ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous when you look at the math both would be better habits for you than paying down your mortgage.

Only if you contort the numbers to make an apples-to-oranges comparison.  All else equal, are you better off spending an extra $5,000 a year eating out or paying $5,000 extra toward your mortgage?

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2018, 05:54:36 PM »
just like you can build wealth and eat out our buying monster trucks you can build wealth while doing anything as long as youre saving something it doesnt mean that should be promoted.

Sorry, but the false equivalence between eating out/buying trucks (subtracting from your net wealth) and paying down mortgage (adding to your net wealth -- but likely more slowly than index investing) is just ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous when you look at the math both would be better habits for you than paying down your mortgage.

Only if you contort the numbers to make an apples-to-oranges comparison.  All else equal, are you better off spending an extra $5,000 a year eating out or paying $5,000 extra toward your mortgage?

You're better off investing 5000.

Or putting 2500 in investments and spending 2500 eating out.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #153 on: September 27, 2018, 07:12:48 PM »
All else equal, are you better off spending an extra $5,000 a year eating out or paying $5,000 extra toward your mortgage?

You're better off investing 5000.

Yeah, that is likely over the long term.

Quote
Or putting 2500 in investments and spending 2500 eating out.

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #154 on: September 27, 2018, 07:20:22 PM »
All else equal, are you better off spending an extra $5,000 a year eating out or paying $5,000 extra toward your mortgage?

You're better off investing 5000.

Yeah, that is likely over the long term.

Quote
Or putting 2500 in investments and spending 2500 eating out.

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

Mathmatically this is still Superior to putting 5k into a mortgage. Oh my gosh I can't believe it. 10% return on 2500 annually is better than 4% on 5k no way. Only by almost double after 30 years.

Sorry math is hard.

http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #155 on: September 27, 2018, 07:35:20 PM »
Mathmatically this is still Superior to putting 5k into a mortgage. Oh my gosh I can't believe it. 10% return on 2500 annually is better than 4% on 5k no way. Only by almost double after 30 years.

Thanks for answering the question.  I noticed you chose a 30 year timeline and assumed 10% return, ignoring sequence of returns.  So are you also cool with a 10% SWR?  :D

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #156 on: September 27, 2018, 07:47:17 PM »
Mathmatically this is still Superior to putting 5k into a mortgage. Oh my gosh I can't believe it. 10% return on 2500 annually is better than 4% on 5k no way. Only by almost double after 30 years.

Thanks for answering the question.  I noticed you chose a 30 year timeline and assumed 10% return, ignoring sequence of returns.  So are you also cool with a 10% SWR?  :D

There is inflation. I could have applied 1% to the 4% mortgage bc it doesn't index to inflation and used 7% if you don't expect those returns you're going to need a really low withdrawal rate. And if you're betting to win on sorr with paying down a mortgage first you're trying to find a needle in a haystack.

And your paydown over the last 5-7 years has already missed out on the haystack so you've lost the needle.

Again maths hard
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:49:42 PM by boarder42 »

One

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #157 on: September 27, 2018, 07:55:40 PM »
Man, this guy keeps hijacking threads and pissing on our cheerios.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #158 on: September 27, 2018, 07:58:23 PM »
Man, this guy keeps hijacking threads and pissing on our cheerios.

Who buys Cheerios. Those are an expensive form of calories. Lots of knock off brands if you like to eat cereal in the shape of letters.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #159 on: September 27, 2018, 08:11:05 PM »
There is inflation. I could have applied 1% to the 4% mortgage bc it doesn't index to inflation and used 7% if you don't expect those returns you're going to need a really low withdrawal rate. And if you're betting to win on sorr with paying down a mortgage first you're trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Using 10% with no consideration of SORR over 30 years is not realistic IMO.  As for long-term market returns, your guess is as good as mine, and both are worthless.

The snark about "math is hard" is unnecessary.  I think we all understand compounding.  I'm also well aware of historical stock market performance over longer timelines.  It's one of the reasons why we chose our payoff over a relatively short timeline (10 years).

Radagast

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #160 on: September 27, 2018, 08:16:46 PM »
Mathmatically this is still Superior to putting 5k into a mortgage. Oh my gosh I can't believe it. 10% return on 2500 annually is better than 4% on 5k no way. Only by almost double after 30 years.

Thanks for answering the question.  I noticed you chose a 30 year timeline and assumed 10% return, ignoring sequence of returns.  So are you also cool with a 10% SWR?  :D
There are some DQYDJ calculators for these things.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/
It looks like 30 year S&P500 returns have been as low as 3.635% annualized based on monthly prices, with no inflation adjustment. Bottom 10th percentile was 6.376%. Based on that you might think "wow paying down my mortgage is a genius risk reducing move!"

But DQYDJ also makes another calculator.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-dividend-reinvestment-and-periodic-investment-calculator/
Good luck finding a 30-year interval where monthly periodic investments have returned less than 7% (monthly contributions increased to match inflation).* I thought that 1920-1950 would be about the worst period, but periodic investing still gave a return of 7.36% annualized after subtracting inflation. Then I thought 1950-1980 was probably terrible, but no, the XIRR was still 7.10%. Periodic investing really takes away the swings in outcomes, and is very close to certain to beat mortgage paydown and with less risk to boot.

The lesson is that paying down your mortgage with regular additional monthly payments is a low-return and risky move, guaranteed. But if you pay it off as a lump sum just before you retire, than you are reducing sequence of returns risk, which is OK in my book and perfectly justifiable, but will still not usually beat keeping the mortgage.

* There are a few, predictably ending in the 1970's. Looks like 6.28% in September '44-'74 was the worst... but that is after subtracting inflation.

edit: got inflation wrong
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:28:00 PM by Radagast »

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #161 on: September 27, 2018, 08:33:19 PM »
There are some DQYDJ calculators for these things.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/
<snip>
Good luck finding a 30-year interval where monthly periodic investments have returned less than 7%

Yeah, those are great calculators and I use them all the time.  You might have missed it above, but in my case the mortgage payoff is 10 years.  Using that calculator for 10 year periods, there is (or has historically been) a less compelling case to be made for investing vs paydown.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #162 on: September 27, 2018, 08:35:38 PM »
There is inflation. I could have applied 1% to the 4% mortgage bc it doesn't index to inflation and used 7% if you don't expect those returns you're going to need a really low withdrawal rate. And if you're betting to win on sorr with paying down a mortgage first you're trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Using 10% with no consideration of SORR over 30 years is not realistic IMO.  As for long-term market returns, your guess is as good as mine, and both are worthless.

The snark about "math is hard" is unnecessary.  I think we all understand compounding.  I'm also well aware of historical stock market performance over longer timelines.  It's one of the reasons why we chose our payoff over a relatively short timeline (10 years).

The time frame you pay it off is irrelevant. And to be clear I give two fucks what you do it's the other people's lives your negativity effecting promoting this bull shit. Bc clearly you don't know the math.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #163 on: September 27, 2018, 08:38:30 PM »
There are some DQYDJ calculators for these things.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/
<snip>
Good luck finding a 30-year interval where monthly periodic investments have returned less than 7%

Yeah, those are great calculators and I use them all the time.  You might have missed it above, but in my case the mortgage payoff is 10 years.  Using that calculator for 10 year periods, there is (or has historically been) a less compelling case to be made for investing vs paydown.

Haha you're really trying to time the markets with this shitty suboptimal method. I can only assume the current market highs have something to do with this decision. Man. Every day another pig flies. But yours already flew and you missed the ride paying down your mortgage. Keep making up tiny slivers of hope.

Radagast

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #164 on: September 27, 2018, 08:48:11 PM »
There are some DQYDJ calculators for these things.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/
<snip>
Good luck finding a 30-year interval where monthly periodic investments have returned less than 7%

Yeah, those are great calculators and I use them all the time.  You might have missed it above, but in my case the mortgage payoff is 10 years.  Using that calculator for 10 year periods, there is (or has historically been) a less compelling case to be made for investing vs paydown.
Right, but even over 10 years you are looking at something like a 90% chance of lower returns vs periodic investing. That might be justifiable if it eliminated the worst outcomes, but actually it increases risk. You will lose your house if you stop making payments regardless of what you paid into it already, while the investor will always have a big pile of assets around to make payments, as the long story earlier illustrates. So... I'm not seeing the attraction in early pay off and especially not of regular extra payments. All at once at retirement, yes.

Note: using the presumed worst September 1964-74 10-year period for contributions, an investor who had invested $1,000 per month for ten years adjusted for inflation still had $71,099.28. The June 1922-1932 periodic investor had $73,785.26. So there is a lot less risk here if the investor lost their job 12 months before paying off the house. However, these are the two worst periods. Periodic investing usually ends with a lot more money in addition to having less risk.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:56:22 PM by Radagast »

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #165 on: September 27, 2018, 08:58:51 PM »
To put it another way. When is the most optimal time to buy a new truck. Well that's at the end of the season when they are trying to get rid of...... No fuck no there is never an optimal time to buy a new truck. Same shit applies to trying to be optimal about your mortgage paydown window. Could you get lucky and hit a Ford truck plant fire in a bottle and sell your raptor for more than you paid yes. But is it likely. Hell no. Then why bet on it.

msanne

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #166 on: September 27, 2018, 09:06:59 PM »
It took us 10 years.  We did one major project each year,  windows, new floors , deck, that kind of thing.

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2018, 09:23:24 PM »
Again, data mining the past does not predict future stock market returns.  The data presented, while impressive, is only a model of the past and may or may not be useful for planning.  Are we relying on good returns, sure.  But they are not guranteed.  A few thoughts to consider, ....whatever you want to do is ok by me.

1)  An average of international markets should be included in the data, as US companies are now basically global.  The historic Dow or S&P skew the data towards a multi decade growing US, dominating the world economy.  The US and global economy today are nothing like the growing post war US economy being data mined.  The US had huge competitive advantages from being the only major industrial giant not massively disrupted by war.  The data is rosy, but that is the past.  The 40s - 80s US role in the world is greatly changed.  It is important to see the big picture and not be stuck in numbers blinders.

2) I am personally very optimistic about the future returns of stocks, but I really cringe when I read young enthusiastic people throw around terms like `returns are guaranteed to be better over 30 years.'  This is over stating the case and frankly using language like that in a financial services firm would get you in deep legal do do, and might be illegal in a fudicuary advisory context. Not even insurance companies with billions in assets would guarantee stock market returns.  If it was that safe, the bond and treasury markets would not exist.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:53:11 PM by PizzaSteve »

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2018, 09:30:48 PM »
Again, data mining the past does not predict future stock market returns.  The data presented, while impressive, is only a model of the past and may or may not be useful for planning.  Are we relying on good returns, sure.  But they are not guranteed.

1)  An average of international markets should be included in the data, as US companies are now basically global.  The historic Dow or S&P skew the data towards a multi decade growing US, dominating the world economy.  The US and global economy today are nothing like a growing post war US economy being data mined.  The US had huge competitive advantages from being the only major industrial giant not massively disrupted by war.

2) I am personally very optimistic about the future returns of atocks, but I relly cringe when I read young enthusiastic people, drunk on the longest bull market in history, who are also barely financially qualified to manage their own funds, much less be a financial advisor to others, start to throw around terms like `returns are guaranteed to be better over 30 years.'  This is over stating the case and frankly using language like that in a financial services firm would get you in deep legal do do, and might be illegal in a fudicuary advisory context. Not even insurance companies with billions in assets would guarantee stock market returns.  If it was that safe, the bond and treasury markets would not exist.



So given all your optimism and your so we'll put together post /s. What is your current withdrawal rate an what age did you work unitl?  Given you just retired a yearish ago you are likely still at your same withdrawal rate which last I checked was around 2 due to touting fear of the markets and something about all the bad tree investments your grandpa made followed by a patronizing example of how you're a top exec that was groomed by the best. So. Back to the original question what is this optimistic withdrawal rate you're using while constantly just arguing the opposite of whatever anyone says.

Also please don't reply to this post it's meant to stand on it's own.

solon

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2018, 09:39:17 PM »
Nerd fight!

Do you even math, bro?

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2018, 09:55:04 PM »
Right, but even over 10 years you are looking at something like a 90% chance of lower returns vs periodic investing. That might be justifiable if it eliminated the worst outcomes, but actually it increases risk. You will lose your house if you stop making payments regardless of what you paid into it already, while the investor will always have a big pile of assets around to make payments, as the long story earlier illustrates.

Everyone can agree the all-eggs-in-payoff-basket strategy 'Nervous Nick' used in that story is dumb, and I mentioned that earlier.  The situation is absurd because he has no way to mitigate his risk if he loses his job or whatever.  But if Nick starts off with a decent nest egg and has the income to put 4x more into his investments than he does toward extra mortgage payments each month, I'm not really that concerned about his risk.  I'm also not concerned that his path is likely to be less optimal than 100% investing.  Obviously.  :)

I understand your point that past returns suggest a more optimal approach would be to periodically invest and then pay off in a lump sum.  That's what we would probably have done to mitigate risk if we didn't start our 10 year payoff period with a pretty large nest egg to fall back on.  Or our income/mortgage ratio were such that we couldn't afford to both pay down and invest heavily.  Or if we were starting off 20 years away from FIRE instead of ~10.

PizzaSteve

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2018, 09:56:26 PM »
Again, data mining the past does not predict future stock market returns.  The data presented, while impressive, is only a model of the past and may or may not be useful for planning.  Are we relying on good returns, sure.  But they are not guranteed.

1)  An average of international markets should be included in the data, as US companies are now basically global.  The historic Dow or S&P skew the data towards a multi decade growing US, dominating the world economy.  The US and global economy today are nothing like a growing post war US economy being data mined.  The US had huge competitive advantages from being the only major industrial giant not massively disrupted by war.

2) I am personally very optimistic about the future returns of atocks, but I relly cringe when I read young enthusiastic people, drunk on the longest bull market in history, who are also barely financially qualified to manage their own funds, much less be a financial advisor to others, start to throw around terms like `returns are guaranteed to be better over 30 years.'  This is over stating the case and frankly using language like that in a financial services firm would get you in deep legal do do, and might be illegal in a fudicuary advisory context. Not even insurance companies with billions in assets would guarantee stock market returns.  If it was that safe, the bond and treasury markets would not exist.



So given all your optimism and your so we'll put together post /s. What is your current withdrawal rate an what age did you work unitl?  Given you just retired a yearish ago you are likely still at your same withdrawal rate which last I checked was around 2 due to touting fear of the markets and something about all the bad tree investments your grandpa made followed by a patronizing example of how you're a top exec that was groomed by the best. So. Back to the original question what is this optimistic withdrawal rate you're using while constantly just arguing the opposite of whatever anyone says.

Also please don't reply to this post it's meant to stand on it's own.

Im not touting fear.  Again you exaggerate to pick fights.  Did you even read what I wrote or are you just trolling again?

I am saying that data mining the past does not guarantee future returns, nothing more, nothing less.  If people used reasonable rhetoric I wouldnt even post, but saying math can predict the future without error is a false statement about stock markets and market related models of returns.  No where did I write that returns would be poor, just unknown.  They could be the best ever.

You claim to want to help people, so spread sound reasoning, not argumentative exaggerations.

PS  You were not the person using the term guaranteed, so I wasnt even referring to any of your posts, unless you have multiple accounts.  Also, you never respected my request that you not reply to my posts, so I feel no obligation to treat your request with respect. 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 10:07:46 PM by PizzaSteve »

Dicey

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2018, 10:06:28 PM »
There is inflation. I could have applied 1% to the 4% mortgage bc it doesn't index to inflation and used 7% if you don't expect those returns you're going to need a really low withdrawal rate. And if you're betting to win on sorr with paying down a mortgage first you're trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Using 10% with no consideration of SORR over 30 years is not realistic IMO.  As for long-term market returns, your guess is as good as mine, and both are worthless.

The snark about "math is hard" is unnecessary. I think we all understand compounding.  I'm also well aware of historical stock market performance over longer timelines.  It's one of the reasons why we chose our payoff over a relatively short timeline (10 years).
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2018, 10:10:00 PM »
Again, data mining the past does not predict future stock market returns.  The data presented, while impressive, is only a model of the past and may or may not be useful for planning.  Are we relying on good returns, sure.  But they are not guranteed.  A few thoughts to consider, ....whatever you want to do is ok by me.

1)  An average of international markets should be included in the data, as US companies are now basically global.  The historic Dow or S&P skew the data towards a multi decade growing US, dominating the world economy.  The US and global economy today are nothing like the growing post war US economy being data mined.  The US had huge competitive advantages from being the only major industrial giant not massively disrupted by war.  The data is rosy, but that is the past.  The 40s - 80s US role in the world is greatly changed.  It is important to see the big picture and not be stuck in numbers blinders.

2) I am personally very optimistic about the future returns of stocks, but I really cringe when I read young enthusiastic people, drunk on the longest bull market in history, who are also barely financially qualified to manage their own funds, much less be a financial advisor to others, start to throw around terms like `returns are guaranteed to be better over 30 years.'  This is over stating the case and frankly using language like that in a financial services firm would get you in deep legal do do, and might be illegal in a fudicuary advisory context. Not even insurance companies with billions in assets would guarantee stock market returns.  If it was that safe, the bond and treasury markets would not exist.
Right. Well I divide it into two phases. If the alternative to paying down the mortgage is making periodic investments, then the risk of mortgage paydown is sure to be higher and returns are highly likely to be lower. If stocks do bad and people lose their jobs, then people who have mostly but not quite paid their mortgages will fare worst. Making early mortgage payments is invariably the worst choice because 90% of a house is the worst amount to own. Trading higher risk for lower returns is the opposite of sound investing strategy. We are using historical returns to argue for return data, but no data must be mined to see that having a mortgage but no money is riskier. Paying off a mortgage can't even be considered as a candidate for a good investment decision unless you can pay the entire thing and still afford to eat next month. The risk is what kills it.

In the other phase, if your mortgage payment money is the same money you use for mandatory periodic living expenses with no other income, then things are very different. In that case you are right, and paying off the mortgage is a good alternative. A large market crash may cause a mortgage holder to lose enough money that they can't recover if they need that money to live every month. Paying off a mortgage in retirement is a lower risk for lower return strategy, which is sound advice in retirement. Let's not conflate a static investment (which everybody uses in theory, but nobody uses in practice) with the real world cases of periodic contributions and periodic withdrawals.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2018, 10:30:48 PM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2018, 11:34:18 PM »
It took us 10 years.  We did one major project each year,  windows, new floors , deck, that kind of thing.

Thanks for sharing, @msanne

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #176 on: September 28, 2018, 03:57:01 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

GuitarStv

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #177 on: September 28, 2018, 07:48:30 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #178 on: September 28, 2018, 08:50:33 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Oh, snap.

ysette9

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #179 on: September 28, 2018, 08:53:02 AM »
Every time I need to fight back an emotional response that makes me want to put extra on my mortgage I can come here and read one of these never-ending debates. It is good to remind the logical side of my brain why it is sub-optimal so it can beat the emotional side of my brain into submission once again.

I definitely get the pull of waning to put extra on it and pay it off early. As a kid I grew up learning that it was a great love to make. I imagine the interest rates in the 80s had something to do with that influence as well.

One

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #180 on: September 28, 2018, 09:08:50 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 09:29:36 AM by One »

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #181 on: September 28, 2018, 09:31:27 AM »
There is nothing wrong with paying PMI. You're doing the math wrong to favor not paying PMI. The PMI is a percentage of the total loan so it adds only a marginal cost to the total loan rate. I'll try to go dig up the post MDM put together about this a year or 2 ago where we both arrived at the same conclusion thru different equations.

I'm curious to see your work. I'm currently paying a bit extra on my mortgage each month to get rid of PMI. By my calculations, it brings my 4.25% nominal interest rate mortgage to more than 6% actual. There's not enough of a spread between a ~6.5% mortgage and my expected returns from the stock market over the next 2 years (which is how long it will take me to get rid of PMI) to make re want to keep paying PMI any long than I have to.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #182 on: September 28, 2018, 09:34:40 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

You cant just make statements without putting anything behind them. If you expect this statement to be true you had better be planning to rely on a sub 1.75% swr. I mean seriously. WTF. Also market timing is for suckers which is what the second half of your statement is.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #183 on: September 28, 2018, 09:36:51 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Oh, snap.

Do you have dates that you paid it down over so I can calculate the huge not minor loss to your stage you incurred. I'm sure I could go over to the thread that belongs in the anitmustachian wall of shame and comedy and figure it out.

erutio

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #184 on: September 28, 2018, 09:38:58 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

Have you not read anything that's been said in this thread?

One

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #185 on: September 28, 2018, 09:42:33 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

You cant just make statements without putting anything behind them. If you expect this statement to be true you had better be planning to rely on a sub 1.75% swr. I mean seriously. WTF. Also market timing is for suckers which is what the second half of your statement is.

Nah, just real math vs fuzzy math. 4.75% vs unknown.  Also you'll notice I said after you've maxed out tax deferred.

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #186 on: September 28, 2018, 10:04:48 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Hmmm, it's not paying off the mortgage that's the problem, it's doing it in a sub-optimal manner such as not stuffing other tax-advantaged accounts first. I know you didn't do that, GS!!

GuitarStv

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #187 on: September 28, 2018, 10:06:40 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Oh, snap.

Do you have dates that you paid it down over so I can calculate the huge not minor loss to your stage you incurred. I'm sure I could go over to the thread that belongs in the anitmustachian wall of shame and comedy and figure it out.

We paid off our 390k mortgage mid way (Aug or Sep?) through our seventh year of owning the home in 2016.  We had a closed fixed rate mortgage (I honestly don't remember what it was at . . . between 4 and 5% though), and like most Canadian mortgages it matured every 5 years.  At the end of the first five years we got an open variable rate mortgage that had no penalties for early repayment (the variable mortgage was much lower than the last one - between 3-4% as I recall).  We put down 20% initially when buying the home to avoid paying PMI (1% of value of loan each year).  We maxed out our TFSAs and RRSPs every year that we had our mortgage, and excess savings was invested in non-tax sheltered ways.  We were able to take 40 grand out of our RRSPs without penalty when buying the home, and did so.  There is no tax break for carrying a mortgage in Canada (unless you count the Smith Maneuver?).  We do get an insurance break for having a paid off home, although that amounts to only a few hundred dollars a year.  We would not be invested 100% into US equity if we hadn't paid off the loan.  We do a 20 - 20 - 20 - 40 split between Canadian Equity - International Equity - US Equity - Bonds.

Calculate away.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:11:27 AM by GuitarStv »

Dicey

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #188 on: September 28, 2018, 10:11:52 AM »
There is nothing wrong with paying PMI. You're doing the math wrong to favor not paying PMI. The PMI is a percentage of the total loan so it adds only a marginal cost to the total loan rate. I'll try to go dig up the post MDM put together about this a year or 2 ago where we both arrived at the same conclusion thru different equations.

I'm curious to see your work. I'm currently paying a bit extra on my mortgage each month to get rid of PMI. By my calculations, it brings my 4.25% nominal interest rate mortgage to more than 6% actual. There's not enough of a spread between a ~6.5% mortgage and my expected returns from the stock market over the next 2 years (which is how long it will take me to get rid of PMI) to make re want to keep paying PMI any long than I have to.
PMI let you get into your house with less than 20% down. It's not cheap, but if PMI didn't exist, nobody would have given you a mortgage easily. Embrace it. Do the mustachian thing and fix it up your house so it increases in value faster. DIY, of course. Think of it as a gift (albeit not a cheap one), because it got you what you wanted. You did want to buy a house, right? Badly enough to agree to PMI? Nobody slipped it in there like a garbage fee during escrow? Eventually, it will go away and you'll be fine.

Dicey

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #189 on: September 28, 2018, 10:18:33 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Oh, snap.

Do you have dates that you paid it down over so I can calculate the huge not minor loss to your stage you incurred. I'm sure I could go over to the thread that belongs in the anitmustachian wall of shame and comedy and figure it out.

We paid off our 390k mortgage mid way (Aug or Sep?) through our seventh year of owning the home in 2016.  We had a closed fixed rate mortgage (I honestly don't remember what it was at . . . between 4 and 5% though), and like most Canadian mortgages it matured every 5 years.  At the end of the first five years we got an open variable rate mortgage that had no penalties for early repayment (the variable mortgage was much lower than the last one - between 3-4% as I recall).  We put down 20% initially when buying the home to avoid paying PMI (1% of value of loan each year).  We maxed out our TFSAs and RRSPs every year that we had our mortgage, and excess savings was invested in non-tax sheltered ways.  We were able to take 40 grand out of our RRSPs without penalty when buying the home, and did so.  There is no tax break for carrying a mortgage in Canada (unless you count the Smith Maneuver?).  We do get an insurance break for having a paid off home, although that amounts to only a few hundred dollars a year.  We would not be invested 100% into US equity if we hadn't paid off the loan.  We do a 20 - 20 - 20 - 40 split between Canadian Equity - International Equity - US Equity - Bonds.

Calculate away.
Dude! You're in Canada! This discussion applies to cheap, fixed-rate mortgages! Sure, it's better, but not nearly as good as the sweet, sweet deals still available to US homeowners. Cheap, fixed for thirty long years, and tax deductible to boot. It's nuts not to take advantage of it! You could even call it anti- mustachian not to. Your system would scare the hell out of me. I'd have to do a lot more math. Much harder decision for you folks in the frozen north.

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #190 on: September 28, 2018, 10:45:59 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

Have you not read anything that's been said in this thread?
I am not sure you realize that a 4.75% guaranteed return is a great rate in the current investment environment (eg 5 year CDs around 2-3%, etc.)  This person understands very well what they are doing, so why this OCD compulsion with arguing that taking a guaranteed lower return is a poor choice vs a non guaranteed hope for a better return.

I just dont get it.  Sure, if someone does not have awareness of the possible benefits of using leverage, enlighten.  But when they understand the math and chose this path why is this OCD need to yell at them?

I just dont get it.  if you look at what most think long term stock returns are likely to be, the difference is just not material vs spending and savings decisions.  Sure if you use wildly optimistic market return assumptions, it seems huge, but if you dont it isnt.

Let people enjoy their accomplishments or their thoughtfully created investment plans in peace. This obsession that one plan needs to be imposed on everyone is unhealthy IMHO.

More like a guaranteed 1.75% return and all but Guaranteed you'll work longer.

Curious what your withdrawal rate is if you don't think the market will out perform 1.75% after inflation
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:47:33 AM by boarder42 »

boarder42

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #191 on: September 28, 2018, 10:48:59 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

You cant just make statements without putting anything behind them. If you expect this statement to be true you had better be planning to rely on a sub 1.75% swr. I mean seriously. WTF. Also market timing is for suckers which is what the second half of your statement is.

Nah, just real math vs fuzzy math. 4.75% vs unknown.  Also you'll notice I said after you've maxed out tax deferred.

Curious what your plans are for income in FIRE since the market is so unknown.

GuitarStv

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #192 on: September 28, 2018, 11:01:16 AM »
I think we all understand compounding
Citation, please? I see lots of evidence to the contrary in several places on the forum.

By that I didn't mean that literally everyone everywhere understands compounding.  I was responding to the "math is hard" snark directed at me, and I was referring to myself and others participating in this conversation in this thread.

So if you truly understand it why are you sacrificing your most important savings years to pay down a low fixed rate mortgage. Just like putting money in your 401k if you don't do it now you can't magically go back in time and recover all that lost compounding.

My reasons were personal, and completely worth the minor loss in potential future earnings.  I paid off my mortgage purely to spite you man.  :P
Oh, snap.

Do you have dates that you paid it down over so I can calculate the huge not minor loss to your stage you incurred. I'm sure I could go over to the thread that belongs in the anitmustachian wall of shame and comedy and figure it out.

We paid off our 390k mortgage mid way (Aug or Sep?) through our seventh year of owning the home in 2016.  We had a closed fixed rate mortgage (I honestly don't remember what it was at . . . between 4 and 5% though), and like most Canadian mortgages it matured every 5 years.  At the end of the first five years we got an open variable rate mortgage that had no penalties for early repayment (the variable mortgage was much lower than the last one - between 3-4% as I recall).  We put down 20% initially when buying the home to avoid paying PMI (1% of value of loan each year).  We maxed out our TFSAs and RRSPs every year that we had our mortgage, and excess savings was invested in non-tax sheltered ways.  We were able to take 40 grand out of our RRSPs without penalty when buying the home, and did so.  There is no tax break for carrying a mortgage in Canada (unless you count the Smith Maneuver?).  We do get an insurance break for having a paid off home, although that amounts to only a few hundred dollars a year.  We would not be invested 100% into US equity if we hadn't paid off the loan.  We do a 20 - 20 - 20 - 40 split between Canadian Equity - International Equity - US Equity - Bonds.

Calculate away.
Dude! You're in Canada! This discussion applies to cheap, fixed-rate mortgages! Sure, it's better, but not nearly as good as the sweet, sweet deals still available to US homeowners. Cheap, fixed for thirty long years, and tax deductible to boot. It's nuts not to take advantage of it! You could even call it anti- mustachian not to. Your system would scare the hell out of me. I'd have to do a lot more math. Much harder decision for you folks in the frozen north.

Maybe if these tips do not apply to all forum members, we could stop repeating them ad-nauseum in every thread that hints at the possibility of someone mentioning that they're going to pay off a mortgage.  It's kinda obnoxious.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #193 on: September 28, 2018, 11:02:01 AM »
There is nothing wrong with paying PMI. You're doing the math wrong to favor not paying PMI. The PMI is a percentage of the total loan so it adds only a marginal cost to the total loan rate. I'll try to go dig up the post MDM put together about this a year or 2 ago where we both arrived at the same conclusion thru different equations.

I'm curious to see your work. I'm currently paying a bit extra on my mortgage each month to get rid of PMI. By my calculations, it brings my 4.25% nominal interest rate mortgage to more than 6% actual. There's not enough of a spread between a ~6.5% mortgage and my expected returns from the stock market over the next 2 years (which is how long it will take me to get rid of PMI) to make re want to keep paying PMI any long than I have to.
PMI let you get into your house with less than 20% down. It's not cheap, but if PMI didn't exist, nobody would have given you a mortgage easily. Embrace it. Do the mustachian thing and fix it up your house so it increases in value faster. DIY, of course. Think of it as a gift (albeit not a cheap one), because it got you what you wanted. You did want to buy a house, right? Badly enough to agree to PMI? Nobody slipped it in there like a garbage fee during escrow? Eventually, it will go away and you'll be fine.

We paid 10% down, so we knew we'd be paying PMI. It was not a surprise. We have three kids and were sick of renting, so yes, we were happy to pay the PMI in exchange for finally settling down. I'd moved 10 times in 15 years before we bought this house. That shit gets old in a hurry.

I'm putting an extra $500/month towards my mortgage until the PMI disappears in early 2020. Hopefully around then we'll have a bit of hiccup in the economy that allows me to refinance for under 4% (it's gotta happen some time, right?). When that happens, I plan to get another loan for 30 years and never pay a cent extra. Worse case scenario, if rates never get below 4% again, I'll just pay the minimum once PMI disappears.

neo von retorch

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #194 on: September 28, 2018, 11:02:30 AM »
I paid extra towards my mortgage for a while!

In May 2007, I purchased a home with a 6.375% (30 year) mortgage rate. I didn't have 20% down, but I think I was able to pay something like $3k in extra closing costs to get a PMI-free mortgage.

In 2008, I made $1800 in extra payments.

In February 2009, I refinanced to 5% (15 year) with my credit union.

In 2010, I made $1500 in extra payments.

In October 2011, I refinanced again to a 3.375% (15 year) with my credit union.

In 2013, I made another $2500 in extra payments.

I started learning more about investing around this time. While I realized it would be cool to pay off my mortgage the rest of the way, it had already been reduced to about a 12 year mortgage, and the money could do me more good invested in a total stock market index fund. So I haven't paid any more extra on it. I researched refinancing this mortgage, but starting in 2014, this property was turned into a rental, and I didn't like my options as far as closing costs and interest rates, so I'm letting it ride.



In April 2016, my spouse and I purchased a home - we got a 3.75% 30 year fixed-rate mortgage. We didn't have enough to put down to avoid PMI. From May 2016 through September 2016, we paid just over $27,700 in additional payments towards the mortgage, and PMI was removed. We have not made any additional payments since then.

One

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #195 on: September 28, 2018, 11:38:26 AM »
Current fixed mortgage rates are 4.75%. If you've maxed out your tax deferred you'd be better off taking the 4.75% than a hypothetical stock market return. As the fed rates continue to go up the stock market will slow down making this an even better decisions.

Have you not read anything that's been said in this thread?
I am not sure you realize that a 4.75% guaranteed return is a great rate in the current investment environment (eg 5 year CDs around 2-3%, etc.)  This person understands very well what they are doing, so why this OCD compulsion with arguing that taking a guaranteed lower return is a poor choice vs a non guaranteed hope for a better return.

I just dont get it.  Sure, if someone does not have awareness of the possible benefits of using leverage, enlighten.  But when they understand the math and chose this path why is this OCD need to yell at them?

I just dont get it.  if you look at what most think long term stock returns are likely to be, the difference is just not material vs spending and savings decisions.  Sure if you use wildly optimistic market return assumptions, it seems huge, but if you dont it isnt.

Let people enjoy their accomplishments or their thoughtfully created investment plans in peace. This obsession that one plan needs to be imposed on everyone is unhealthy IMHO.

More like a guaranteed 1.75% return and all but Guaranteed you'll work longer.

Curious what your withdrawal rate is if you don't think the market will out perform 1.75% after inflation

Curious what you will do when the stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job, and still have a mortgage on your back. My home is paid off so I'll sleep well at night..

neo von retorch

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #196 on: September 28, 2018, 11:56:29 AM »
Curious what you will do when the stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job, and still have a mortgage on your back. My home is paid off so I'll sleep well at night..

Can you please give a specific scenario with numbers that match this scenario? Also, if you have a paid off mortgage you aren't making a choice of investing vs. paying off early, so it's not a decision point.

But let's assume that you started with a $120k 5% mortgage. Monthly payment of $644.19. You could double up with $630 of extra and pay it off in 10 years. In comparison, Joe Schmoe invests $630 each month and gets a typical average of 7% returns before inflation. At the end of ten years, you have a paid off house, and they have $107,763 and a balance on their mortgage of $97,610.

OK, we agree that's better. Because the market return exceeded the mortgage rate.

What about at 9 years? The investor has a mortgage of $100,384 and $93,423 in investments. You have a mortgage of $9,795 and no investments. You both lose your job. You have $0 to make a mortgage payment. The investor loses 98% of their investment in a completely horrible market crisis. But they still have $2000 to make their next 3 ($644) mortgage payments. Which scenario lets you sleep better at night?

One

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #197 on: September 28, 2018, 12:19:30 PM »
Curious what you will do when the stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job, and still have a mortgage on your back. My home is paid off so I'll sleep well at night..

Can you please give a specific scenario with numbers that match this scenario? Also, if you have a paid off mortgage you aren't making a choice of investing vs. paying off early, so it's not a decision point.

But let's assume that you started with a $120k 5% mortgage. Monthly payment of $644.19. You could double up with $630 of extra and pay it off in 10 years. In comparison, Joe Schmoe invests $630 each month and gets a typical average of 7% returns before inflation. At the end of ten years, you have a paid off house, and they have $107,763 and a balance on their mortgage of $97,610.

OK, we agree that's better. Because the market return exceeded the mortgage rate.

What about at 9 years? The investor has a mortgage of $100,384 and $93,423 in investments. You have a mortgage of $9,795 and no investments. You both lose your job. You have $0 to make a mortgage payment. The investor loses 98% of their investment in a completely horrible market crisis. But they still have $2000 to make their next 3 ($644) mortgage payments. Which scenario lets you sleep better at night?

Run the same scenario with a negative 7% return.

techwiz

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #198 on: September 28, 2018, 12:20:36 PM »
Curious what you will do when the stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job, and still have a mortgage on your back. My home is paid off so I'll sleep well at night..

I agree what helps you sleep at night is worth something. I too have a paid off house, but if you leave emotions out of the equation the math really points to it not being the optimum choice.

Using your above "use case" (stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job) the best option would be renting which would give you the flexibility to move to where the jobs are.  Walking away from a highly leveraged home also makes better financial sense proved by many after the 2008 financial crisis. They could go and buy a new house for less than they owed, and in a area where jobs are or lower cost of living area. 

One could argue having a paid off home allows the possibility to pull out home equity (reverse mortgage) to pay for expenses. However this would be more difficult in the times of a large stock market crash where money is tight.

   

neo von retorch

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Re: Paid-off mortgage people: How long did it take you to pay off the house?
« Reply #199 on: September 28, 2018, 12:26:36 PM »
Curious what you will do when the stock market crashes, you lose your money, your job, and still have a mortgage on your back. My home is paid off so I'll sleep well at night..

Can you please give a specific scenario with numbers that match this scenario? Also, if you have a paid off mortgage you aren't making a choice of investing vs. paying off early, so it's not a decision point.

But let's assume that you started with a $120k 5% mortgage. Monthly payment of $644.19. You could double up with $630 of extra and pay it off in 10 years. In comparison, Joe Schmoe invests $630 each month and gets a typical average of 7% returns before inflation. At the end of ten years, you have a paid off house, and they have $107,763 and a balance on their mortgage of $97,610.

OK, we agree that's better. Because the market return exceeded the mortgage rate.

What about at 9 years? The investor has a mortgage of $100,384 and $93,423 in investments. You have a mortgage of $9,795 and no investments. You both lose your job. You have $0 to make a mortgage payment. The investor loses 98% of their investment in a completely horrible market crisis. But they still have $2000 to make their next 3 ($644) mortgage payments. Which scenario lets you sleep better at night?

Run the same scenario with a negative 7% return.

So, worse than a 98% (overnight) investment loss, one where the market consistently loses 7% each year over 10 years? OK so, ignoring the lack of evidence of a 98% crash, can you point to some evidence of this nightmare 7% annual loss scenario? Wow.

Can you please run a scenario where an army of armed monkeys enter your home and stab you with broken glass five billion times? Do you sleep well in this scenario?


OK I ran the numbers, investing $630/month with a 7% negative annual return. Turns out, you still have $53,918.48 at the end of 10 years or $50,112.06 at the end of 9 years. You can safely pay off your mortgage while you find a new job. Crisis averted.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 12:31:39 PM by neo von retorch »