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General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 10:39:56 AM

Title: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 10:39:56 AM
Update: for VPP and leasing pricing (as low as $17/month net in Georgia, see http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/nissan-leaf-almost-paying-me-to-drive-it/msg372047/#msg372047 )

Update 2: I bought a 2nd Leaf and we're now an EV-only household http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/nissan-leaf-almost-paying-me-to-drive-it/msg412192/#msg412192

I stumbled upon this deal by accident. I'd always wanted an electric car, but never wanted to spend the money for one. But my wife wanted to upgrade her 2000 Oldsmobile (it ran well but had some issues and guzzled gas). So I started looking into a replacement. I had no idea, but there are huge tax credits for buying a new (not used) electric vehicle. The federal one is up to $7.5k. Even Georgia (where I live) has a $5k tax credit--I was shocked. Georgia!? So I was getting very interested. Then I saw Nissan's incentives for the model year end--$3.5k rebate and 0% for 6 years. I crunched numbers for total cost of ownership for her current car, the Leaf, a new gas Fit, and a used Fit. Fit was the choice for getting a gas car for various reasons--also MMM recommended. For various reasons (mostly the tax credits) the Leaf is the best deal among the EVs. But I was shocked at how the numbers came out--the Leaf was the cheapest (see below). So we  thought about it for a week and then bought one. Of course I did my research and negotiated and got exactly what I wanted--one of the last 3 or so 2014 Leaf S with upgraded charging package in the entire Atlanta metro area. I paid below invoice, including everything (charge package, floor mats, etc). What did it run me?
$29,500 (including everything except state fees)
-$7,500 (federal)
-$5,000 (state)
-$3,500 (Nissan)
=$13.5k
I financed the 26k plus state fees (GA taxes you upfront when you acquire a vehicle and then there's no annual tax) at 0% for 6 years.

I get the $12.5k in Jan/Feb when I file my taxes. But since I financed this part of the purchase price, Nissan is lending me the money at 0% so I can invest it until the payments catch up to it over 3 years.

There's also a full warranty, including a 5 year warranty on the battery capacity (if it drops below 70% range they replace it).

There's also a special Georgia Power rate plan for electric vehicles where it's 1.3 cents per kWh (plus fuel charges, taxes, fees, etc which total another few cents per kWh) if you charge it between 11pm-7am (when it's in my garage anyway), and the Leaf has a built in charging timer so it will charge when you tell it to (just plug it in when you get home and it will charge itself during super off peak hours).

So I'm expecting to pay about $100 per year for energy (Edit: my electricity bill actually went down from last year because of the switch to EV rate plan, even with charging the car), have about $0 estimated for depreciation after 5 years (after tax credits and rebate), not have to pay for emissions testing, almost no maintenance is required (no oil changes, etc), and I get to have a brand new electric car.

The only downsides are that it has about 70-100 miles of range depending on how you drive (but we have an efficient gas car if we need to go somewhere far, and we've driven the Leaf all week without having to charge it yet), that it's unclear what the depreciation will look like (but I plan to drive it for 15 years anyway), and there isn't a 10+ year track record of Leafs yet to know what the reliability will be like when it gets really old. There are options for taking the Leaf on trips (fast charge stations take it to 80% charged in <30 minutes) but it's obviously more hassle (stopping every hour for 30 minutes) and much less available (there's an app to show you where the stations are) than gas stations. I bet that in the next 3-10 years there will be a lot of after market conversions that would let you add another 100 miles of range if you can pay $5-10k for the batteries.

My average annual numbers at the 5 year period for our usage (we don't drive much) for comprehensive and collision insurance (required for financing), energy, maintenance, emissions, taxes (upfront at acquisition), depreciation, and opportunity cost of the money:
Leaf: $800
2000 Oldsmobile: $1400 (assuming it lasts 5 years)
Used Fit: $2250
New Fit: $3050

And the electric car is a great hedge against the rising price of gasoline. I expect it only to go up--perhaps dramatically.

The free plug that came with the Leaf will charge about 40 miles in 8 hours (super off peak hours) or I can get a $600 240v charging station that plugs into a 240v outlet (which I can install myself for $40 or pay an electrician maybe $200 to put in) that will fill the entire ~100 mile range in 5 hours.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: hexdexorex on July 03, 2014, 10:52:27 AM
Yea GA incentives are great. I wish CA increased theirs to 5k as well....

In West Virginia its 7500 (because the coal companies want ppl to own electric cars)....ironic
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Bourbon on July 03, 2014, 11:12:16 AM
Made me look too.  Unfortunately no incentives in Ky other than the reduced electric rates.  I did see some 2013 models still out there new.  I wonder when they mark those down drastically?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Doomspark on July 03, 2014, 11:32:19 AM
Nice going!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 11:35:45 AM
It will be interesting to see the used Leaf market in 1-3 years when all the leases are up. People are leasing Leafs like crazy here (similar incentives are available that make the final cost something like $0 to $200 per month for the lease, including everything--and the energy savings could be $200/month). If people choose not to purchase at the end, there could be a lot of cars still under battery and powertrain warranty on the market.

I chose to buy because the deal was better (under my numbers) and I know I want to keep it for the long haul. It's been fun to have. My wife hates to drive, but she actually fights me a bit on who gets to drive it--even when we carpool.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tomsang on July 03, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
Thanks for the post. You made me look. Not sure on the accuracy of this list, but it was handy

http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

Washington State has no sales tax and as an added kicker electric cars are exempt from annual emissions testing...  I am glad that was written into law.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: kendallf on July 03, 2014, 11:41:50 AM
You prompted me to go and look at Florida's incentives again.  Not much -- HOV lane exemption, woo!

We have two Prii that I bought used (wife and daughter) currently, and I plan to keep ours and drive it into the ground.  I'll be looking for plug in conversion parts in a few years when the prices come down.  Currently ~$10k for a 40-100mi range add on battery pack, which has basically negative ROI without tax incentives.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 11:48:56 AM
You prompted me to go and look at Florida's incentives again.  Not much -- HOV lane exemption, woo!


GA has the HOV lane exemption too. But not many HOV lanes (none of the places we normally drive) and it's $35/year for the special license plate and you have to get a free peach pass (still some hassle) so I'm not planning to do it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 11:52:43 AM
Made me look too.  Unfortunately no incentives in Ky other than the reduced electric rates.  I did see some 2013 models still out there new.  I wonder when they mark those down drastically?

The 2013 models if they are new still qualify for the tax credits. And last month Nissan was offering $3500 rebate and 0% financing on them as well, plus an additional $1k in rebate to the dealer (which you can negotiate to have dropped from your purchase price). It looks like they haven't started that deal again (yet) for this month.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 03, 2014, 12:04:43 PM
Yea GA incentives are great. I wish CA increased theirs to 5k as well....


Even $2.5k is nice. Under my scenario that would still be cheaper than a gas powered vehicle.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: enigmaT120 on July 03, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Nice deal.  Oregon only has 1500 and is threatening to tax electric cars higher as their drivers don't pay gas tax.  My commut is 100 miles rt if I drive so a Leaf wouldn't do it but I like them.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Another Reader on July 03, 2014, 11:06:34 PM
My area has numerous Leafs, Volts and even Teslas.  You see a lot of Leafs doing the school drop offs and grocery runs.  Not so much on the freeways, although they all seem to have the highly prized carpool lane sticker.  My guess is they are the new mode of transportation for forward thinking SAHP's.

There was a cheap lease deal advertised on these a few weeks back.  My guess is the tax credit goes to the lessor and subsidizes the lease to some extent.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: gimp on July 03, 2014, 11:13:31 PM
Your guess would be right, AR, just like companies like Solar City who pay to get solar panels on your roof, take the tax break, and sell you energy at lower costs than utilities would. Win-win-win, wins all around. Maybe not what was intended, but it gets the job done, so nobody complains.

AR, you're bay area, right? I feel like there are more Teslas around me than leafs and volts combined. Largely due to the fact that leafs and volts are ugly, relatively expensive, have crap range, and drive like cheap cars (because they are, apart from the battery).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Another Reader on July 03, 2014, 11:34:14 PM
My subdivision has around 330 homes.  There are at least 3 Leafs and two Volts within a couple of blocks.  No Teslas in my part of the neighborhood yet.  However, I see them all the time between my house and the freeway.  I think there are at least ten that are garaged nearby, based on license plates and colors.  I'm in the hills in the South Bay, and there are a couple of nearby neighborhoods with a high concentration of tech wealth.

The guy behind me drives a souped up early 70's GM product with all the racing stickers.  He's probably had it for decades, so his cost of ownership is also low....
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: TomTX on July 04, 2014, 07:15:43 AM
Tempting, but my commute is too short to really pay off, as long as the '95 Saturn still passes emissions. Would be nice to have AC again though.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: hexdexorex on July 04, 2014, 09:07:52 AM
To defend the volt it has pretty much the highest customer satisfaction level. Also after all the breaks its as cheap as the prius and a much better car (unless you go long rangers regularly).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: jeastith on July 05, 2014, 07:47:59 AM
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 06, 2014, 11:29:07 AM
There was a cheap lease deal advertised on these a few weeks back.  My guess is the tax credit goes to the lessor and subsidizes the lease to some extent.

Yes, Nissan is offering $7.5k to $9.7k in incentives towards a lease--essentially giving you the federal tax credit.

Looks like the $3500 Nissan cash plus 0% financing is available for the 2015 Leafs now.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: socaso on July 06, 2014, 05:10:03 PM
That's amazing! Another big incentive for me would be having a car that was fueled and ready to go every morning so I don't have to do the gas station time juggling maneuver that I have to do once a week. I'm sure I'm the only one who lets this slide until the last minute.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 16, 2014, 12:01:38 PM
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 16, 2014, 12:07:53 PM
I saw a Spark EV on the road this week. It looks like another great EV option. It's just slightly cheaper than the Leaf, but doesn't have the same manufacturer cash back and financing options.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 16, 2014, 12:15:23 PM
Nissan recently announced that replacement batteries (which will presumably have their most advanced technology available when you get them) are $5500. I expect that will drop as batteries continue to get cheaper and lighter. Probably in 8-10 when I want a replacement battery, I could opt to double my range at the same time for about $5-6k total.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jack on July 16, 2014, 12:28:03 PM
This makes me give serious consideration to doing the same thing, especially since I'm also in Atlanta and should hopefully be able to get the same deal. The thing that worries me though, is that my commute is an antimustachian 30 miles each way (all freeway--from near downtown out toward Gwinnett) and I'm not sure if a Leaf could make it without charging at work.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on July 16, 2014, 12:50:46 PM
Tempting, but my commute is too short to really pay off, as long as the '95 Saturn still passes emissions. Would be nice to have AC again though.

+1

Driving my 2002 SC-2 3-door until the wheels fall off....same A/C issue though
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: strider3700 on July 16, 2014, 03:34:09 PM
I spent a bit of time on the canadian nissan site.  wow canadian prices suck compared to what you got.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: libertarian4321 on July 16, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
We are thinking of buying either an electric or an ELIO in the next couple of years as a commuter (2nd) vehicle.

If we go electric, I'll need to get my wife to focus on the Leaf or Volt and stop obsessing over the Tesla (which is what, about double the cost of either?).

Though with the number of new models coming out, there might be something far better by 2016.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: okashira on July 16, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
If the battery is only $5500, why didn't they just make $7500 so it could actually have more then 110 miles range?

Am I the only one who thinks it's not a coincidence that all electric cars, except tesla's have almost the exact same size battery pack, 20kwh? ;-)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: JamesAt15 on July 16, 2014, 07:29:51 PM
Though with the number of new models coming out, there might be something far better by 2016.

If you're referring to the Tesla Model III, it will be "unveiled in 2016 before actually going on sale in 2017."

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/16/tesla-3-series-fighter-named-model-iii-3-musk/

So the other manufacturers have a bit of time. I think it's good to know that the new Tesla models are coming, even in a few years. It will encourage the other car companies to release and improve their own models to try to gain market share in the meantime, and be competitive when the Model III releases.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: rxmurphy on July 18, 2014, 05:40:05 AM
Tempting, but my commute is too short to really pay off, as long as the '95 Saturn still passes emissions. Would be nice to have AC again though.

+1

Driving my 2002 SC-2 3-door until the wheels fall off....same A/C issue though
Didn't your car come with 4-40 AC?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ingrownstudentloans on July 18, 2014, 07:24:38 AM
Tempting, but my commute is too short to really pay off, as long as the '95 Saturn still passes emissions. Would be nice to have AC again though.

+1

Driving my 2002 SC-2 3-door until the wheels fall off....same A/C issue though
Didn't your car come with 4-40 AC?

SC stands for sports coupe...it came with 2-55 AC :)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Doomspark on July 18, 2014, 09:06:32 AM
I'm really happy with my Volt.  I like that it has the 40-50 mile battery range (which covers my work commute), but also has the gas option that makes it useful for road trips.

Because we're currently renting, I have not installed a charging station.  When we buy a place of our own, that will be one of the first things I do.  I plug it into a standard 110 outlet every night.

IIRC, there's a Federal tax credit for putting in the charging station.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Gin1984 on July 18, 2014, 11:16:21 AM
I spent a bit of time on the canadian nissan site.  wow canadian prices suck compared to what you got.
So buy in the USA and drive it home. :)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ivyhedge on July 18, 2014, 11:40:33 AM
Because we're currently renting, I have not installed a charging station.  When we buy a place of our own, that will be one of the first things I do.  I plug it into a standard 110 outlet every night.


How do you handle electricity charges (so to speak)? Our condo complex has no provision for charging anything (very strange considering its age and demographic), and I don't think they'd take kindly to me dragging around an extension cord. ;)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Doomspark on July 18, 2014, 12:09:30 PM
How do you handle electricity charges (so to speak)? Our condo complex has no provision for charging anything (very strange considering its age and demographic), and I don't think they'd take kindly to me dragging around an extension cord. ;)

We have a shed adjacent to the carport that has an electrical outlet inside. The shed's got a hole in the side of it (no idea how it got there - it predates us), and I've snaked a heavy-duty extension cord from the outlet, out the hole, and over to where I park.  When I go to work in the morning, I unplug the charger and put it in my car, and then drop the extension cord back down the hole.  When I get home at night, I unlock the shed and feed the cord back out again.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 18, 2014, 12:43:43 PM
What does the payment work too? If you don't mind.

Also, which Nissan dealership. I'm also metro-Atlanta based. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Nords on July 20, 2014, 12:06:16 AM
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).
Do you happen to have a link to the charging station itself? 

I have a choice of installing a few more panels (and a bigger inverter) on our existing array, but if I can buy a stand-alone EV charging station for that price then I can skip the inverter upgrade.

Do you really mean 7.2KW/7200 watts?  Because around here, that's big enough to power a four-bedroom home with air conditioning & all-electric appliances.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: greenmimama on July 21, 2014, 10:24:14 AM
I checke don MI, they have 0 incentives, too bad, I would consider this for sure, sounds like the best new car deal ever!!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DollarBill on July 22, 2014, 05:33:32 PM
Quote
$29,500 (including everything except state fees)
-$7,500 (federal)
-$5,000 (state)
-$3,500 (Nissan)
=$13.5k
Wonder if you can sell it after you file and turn a profit? Does the tax code say you have to keep it for a certain amount of years?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jack on July 22, 2014, 05:46:58 PM
Quote
$29,500 (including everything except state fees)
-$7,500 (federal)
-$5,000 (state)
-$3,500 (Nissan)
=$13.5k
Wonder if you can sell it after you file and turn a profit? Does the tax code say you have to keep it for a certain amount of years?

I would expect that the tax credit depresses the resale value by the amount of the credit. Why would you pay more for a used one than you could buying it new?

I guess maybe you could try to do arbitrage between a state with a tax credit and one without....
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DollarBill on July 22, 2014, 10:12:35 PM
Quote
$29,500 (including everything except state fees)
-$7,500 (federal)
-$5,000 (state)
-$3,500 (Nissan)
=$13.5k
Wonder if you can sell it after you file and turn a profit? Does the tax code say you have to keep it for a certain amount of years?

I would expect that the tax credit depresses the resale value by the amount of the credit. Why would you pay more for a used one than you could buying it new?

I guess maybe you could try to do arbitrage between a state with a tax credit and one without....
I remember about two years back I calculated the tax difference for buying a Chevy Volt. The tax system benefits the higher earner. On my income I would only reap about $1500-2000 but my Mom at a higher income would get the full $7500. I wonder how many people buy one without doing the tax math or find out later they don't get the full amount.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 12:58:18 PM
This makes me give serious consideration to doing the same thing, especially since I'm also in Atlanta and should hopefully be able to get the same deal. The thing that worries me though, is that my commute is an antimustachian 30 miles each way (all freeway--from near downtown out toward Gwinnett) and I'm not sure if a Leaf could make it without charging at work.

I definitely can get over 60 miles on the freeway, even with A/C. And if you were worried about the distance, maybe you could trickle charge (using the charging station that plugs into any standard household outlet) while at work. It adds about 5 miles per hour of charging time. The battery will lose range over time though, and in the winter I hear that range decreases a little more because the battery is cold (the range increases in the summer).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:08:23 PM
If the battery is only $5500, why didn't they just make $7500 so it could actually have more then 110 miles range?

Am I the only one who thinks it's not a coincidence that all electric cars, except tesla's have almost the exact same size battery pack, 20kwh? ;-)

A lot of educated guessing:

My guess is that they are limited by the current model cycle's configuration. The model cycle is 6 years, and they are generally sticking with the same size body but each year the battery technology gets better. Originally (2011 I think) the battery was 300 pounds heavier and had 10% less capacity (and was certainly more expensive). The technology advances have decreased the price about 8-10% per year. So they designed the body to hold the battery pack they expected to have, and now they would have to redesign things to put in a larger sized one that is now cheaper and less heavy. They have been surveying Leaf owners to see if we'd pay $5k more for double the range. So my guess is that with the next model cycle (I think starting in 2016 with 2017 model years) they will probably have 50% or 100% larger ranges and probably even cost about the same as the current models do. But by then the federal (and likely Georgia) tax credits will probably be gone.

I expect that I'll be able to retrofit mine to add more capacity if I want to. There are some aftermarket options available now. But I only charge mine once or twice a week anyway, so I don't need the range.

And Nissan may come out with a new battery pack that fits the 2014 Leaf that has more capacity when the range on mine has declined (and the capacity warranty has expired). By this time, in 2020 or beyond, batteries should be much cheaper.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:11:17 PM

IIRC, there's a Federal tax credit for putting in the charging station.

The one for private individuals expired Dec 31st and hasn't been renewed as of now.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:14:12 PM
What does the payment work too? If you don't mind.

Also, which Nissan dealership. I'm also metro-Atlanta based. Thanks.

I think it is $384 for 6 years. That includes financing everything including the GA taxes, etc, and the $3500 from Nissan is already accounted for. I'll get $12,500 more when I file in early 2015 (almost 3 years of payments).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:16:52 PM

Also, which Nissan dealership. I'm also metro-Atlanta based. Thanks.

AutoNation Thornton Road in Lithia Springs

I recommend using the Internet departments of a bunch of dealers and asking what the out-the-door price is on the model you're interested in. I got a much better deal that way, and saved myself a lot of time, then going to a dealer and negotiating.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:26:50 PM
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).
Do you happen to have a link to the charging station itself? 

I have a choice of installing a few more panels (and a bigger inverter) on our existing array, but if I can buy a stand-alone EV charging station for that price then I can skip the inverter upgrade.

Do you really mean 7.2KW/7200 watts?  Because around here, that's big enough to power a four-bedroom home with air conditioning & all-electric appliances.

Yes, it's a 240V, 30A station. It adds up to 30 miles per hour of charging. About 4.5 hours to fill it from empty (charging slows down when the battery gets close to full).

http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-3/

I put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet, a 50A breaker, used 6 gauge wire, and added an electric range plug to the station. You can pay $55 extra and they'll add the plug for you, but it's much shorter than the one I added, and I also have the flexibility to hard wire it if I want to.

My service disconnect is 150A, and even if I had both A/Cs running and was charging the car and running the dryer and normal other usage, that's still enough juice. But I try to only charge it at night to take advantage of the super off peak electric rate. Which is also nice to have because my A/Cs and outdoor lighting running at night are using extra cheap power.

As far as charging it from DC, you'd have to figure out something to make that work. It's designed to use AC, except for the DC fast charging option. If you look on the mynissanleaf.com forum you can probably find someone who's using that kind of a setup and writing about it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:33:09 PM
Quote
$29,500 (including everything except state fees)
-$7,500 (federal)
-$5,000 (state)
-$3,500 (Nissan)
=$13.5k
Wonder if you can sell it after you file and turn a profit? Does the tax code say you have to keep it for a certain amount of years?

I would expect that the tax credit depresses the resale value by the amount of the credit. Why would you pay more for a used one than you could buying it new?

I guess maybe you could try to do arbitrage between a state with a tax credit and one without....
I remember about two years back I calculated the tax difference for buying a Chevy Volt. The tax system benefits the higher earner. On my income I would only reap about $1500-2000 but my Mom at a higher income would get the full $7500. I wonder how many people buy one without doing the tax math or find out later they don't get the full amount.

Yes, exactly. If I sold it now, especially in another state that doesn't have the tax credit, I could probably turn a profit. Edmunds says the used value of mine is something in the mid $20k I think, and I only have $13.5k in it. I don't know how long the IRS makes you keep it. But I have heard people doing it for 90 days and selling it and getting the credits.

But the used Leaf market is definitely depressed by the tax credits. Why would someone pay more for a used one than to get their own brand new one? The only reasons I can think of are 1) ignorance, and 2) they don't have enough income tax liability to make full use of the tax credits.

Due to the tax credits, the Leaf is one of the fastest depreciating vehicles right now. But that will change when the tax credits run out. They phase out at 200k cars sold by that manufacturer, and Nissan's probably going to hit that mark in 2 more years.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2014, 01:49:06 PM
How do you handle electricity charges (so to speak)? Our condo complex has no provision for charging anything (very strange considering its age and demographic), and I don't think they'd take kindly to me dragging around an extension cord. ;)

We have a shed adjacent to the carport that has an electrical outlet inside. The shed's got a hole in the side of it (no idea how it got there - it predates us), and I've snaked a heavy-duty extension cord from the outlet, out the hole, and over to where I park.  When I go to work in the morning, I unplug the charger and put it in my car, and then drop the extension cord back down the hole.  When I get home at night, I unlock the shed and feed the cord back out again.

I think it would be better to not use an extension cord, and if you did have to use one, get the shortest possible cord that does the job (remembering that the cable from the charging equipment is another 20+ ft). But if you are going to use the 120V, 12A charging equipment that comes with the car, it might be just fine if you have the appropriate heavy duty extension cord. I have an electric lawn mower that also pulls 120V, 12A and I have a 12-gauge, 100-foot extension cord that I use it with. It's a cord rated for that load (15A--you want it at least 15A for a 12A continuous load), so it was about $70. And DEFINITELY get one rated for the job. You don't want to stress the on-board charger or start a fire. And make sure that no one else will be using that circuit that the cord is plugged into so you don't trip the breaker (and wind up with a partially charged battery).

I would check mynissanleaf.com and see what other owners are reporting about using extension cords. But best to not use one if you can do without it. My guess is that Nissan says not to use an extension cord.

Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Doomspark on July 24, 2014, 02:31:20 PM
How do you handle electricity charges (so to speak)? Our condo complex has no provision for charging anything (very strange considering its age and demographic), and I don't think they'd take kindly to me dragging around an extension cord. ;)

We have a shed adjacent to the carport that has an electrical outlet inside. The shed's got a hole in the side of it (no idea how it got there - it predates us), and I've snaked a heavy-duty extension cord from the outlet, out the hole, and over to where I park.  When I go to work in the morning, I unplug the charger and put it in my car, and then drop the extension cord back down the hole.  When I get home at night, I unlock the shed and feed the cord back out again.

I think it would be better to not use an extension cord, and if you did have to use one, get the shortest possible cord that does the job (remembering that the cable from the charging equipment is another 20+ ft). But if you are going to use the 120V, 12A charging equipment that comes with the car, it might be just fine if you have the appropriate heavy duty extension cord. I have an electric lawn mower that also pulls 120V, 12A and I have a 12-gauge, 100-foot extension cord that I use it with. It's a cord rated for that load (15A--you want it at least 15A for a 12A continuous load), so it was about $70. And DEFINITELY get one rated for the job. You don't want to stress the on-board charger or start a fire. And make sure that no one else will be using that circuit that the cord is plugged into so you don't trip the breaker (and wind up with a partially charged battery).

I would check mynissanleaf.com and see what other owners are reporting about using extension cords. But best to not use one if you can do without it. My guess is that Nissan says not to use an extension cord.

I hear you on this.  I use an extension cord that's rated for 15 amps for exactly the reasons you stated.

I have to use a cord because the charger for my Volt (it's NOT a Leaf) won't fit through the aforementioned hole in the shed.  I rent, so enlarging the hole (and getting dunned by my landlord) is not an option.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 25, 2014, 06:54:14 AM
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).
Do you happen to have a link to the charging station itself? 

I have a choice of installing a few more panels (and a bigger inverter) on our existing array, but if I can buy a stand-alone EV charging station for that price then I can skip the inverter upgrade.

Do you really mean 7.2KW/7200 watts?  Because around here, that's big enough to power a four-bedroom home with air conditioning & all-electric appliances.

I would also think that it would be more profitable to sell your solar energy back to the grid during the day (when demand and electricity prices are high) and pull from the grid at night (when demand and electricity prices are low). Assuming you're grid connected.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 25, 2014, 07:24:23 AM
Update: I spent $50 on parts and installed a 7.2kW EV charging station ($590) myself. It didn't take much knowledge or skill to do the electrical work to code. And there are a ton of videos online with electricians showing you how to do it. Since I did it myself I saved about $1400, and I added a plug to the charging station so that I can take it on the road with me and plug it in where 240v outlets are available (for dryers, RVs, etc). I could have gotten by with the charging station that comes with the car and plugs into a standard 120v household outlet, but the new one allows up to 5 times faster charging (about 25-30 miles of added range per hour of charging).

It turns out that having the faster charging station also saves energy too. Since it charges more quickly, there's less overhead from the car's charging activity (fans, inverters, etc). Versus the trickle charge (standard household outlet) I save about 4-5 kWh ($0.30 to $1 for typical US electric rates) charging from 20% to 100%. Some of the decreased energy use is probably from decreased loss from inversion--it's already 240V so there's less loss to step it up to 400V (what the battery uses) than starting from 120V.

Another bonus that I am noticing is that my electric bill should actually be about the same after getting the car vs before getting it. The key is that I changed to the electric vehicle rate plan (super cheap at night), which also lets nighttime electric use in the house (fridge, A/C, lights) be super cheap at night. And I now use thermostat programming to shut off my A/C during the high peak hours so I avoid those rates almost entirely. I was on a standard plan (flat rate per kWh no matter when you use it). So it might actually be free to drive it (we also don't put a ton of miles in--maybe 10k/year).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tomsang on August 01, 2014, 11:46:46 AM
Just leased a Leaf- I was considering purchasing one, but we are stuck paying the Alternative Minimum Tax for our federal taxes I am in a state that doesn't have an income tax, but did save the sales tax.  The $7,500 would be stuck as a carry forward until we retire.  For the lease the $7,500 is considered a down payment so we get a benefit on the payment 

The other area that I heard from many people relates to the fact that the cars will depreciate very quickly as the EV world is in its infancy and new models have significant improvements vs. gas where the improvements are minimally incremental.  The salespeople believe that as all of the people come off their leases and the new cars have significantly better ranges and efficiencies that the 2014/2015 models will be hard to move.  I am using my Leaf as a commuter car.  Leased a 2015 at $0 down, $290/month for 24 months.  23 payments.  I was using an SUV for a 20 mile each way commuter(I say in shame), so the monthly payment is less than my fuel bill yet I have no oil changes, no maintenance, no depreciation, and we now have another family car as we have four kids coming into driving ages. 

So a major take away is to look at your AMT calculations (federal form 6251 and state form) to determine if you have any room for the credit.  If not the Lease may be a good deal.  $190/month if you want a 36 monthly lease.  Zero down, 35 months.  You can buy the car at the residual which was about $15k for the 24 month lease or $13k for the 36 month lease.     
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 02, 2014, 12:46:36 PM
Just leased a Leaf- I was considering purchasing one, but we are stuck paying the Alternative Minimum Tax for our federal taxes I am in a state that doesn't have an income tax, but did save the sales tax.  The $7,500 would be stuck as a carry forward until we retire.  For the lease the $7,500 is considered a down payment so we get a benefit on the payment

Good point for those who bump into the AMT. It also applies to those who don't have enough taxable income to take full advantage of the tax credit themselves.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 02, 2014, 01:13:36 PM
The other area that I heard from many people relates to the fact that the cars will depreciate very quickly as the EV world is in its infancy and new models have significant improvements vs. gas where the improvements are minimally incremental.  The salespeople believe that as all of the people come off their leases and the new cars have significantly better ranges and efficiencies that the 2014/2015 models will be hard to move.

The unpredictability of the depreciation was the biggest source of hesitation for me before I bought. Here's the way I thought about it. First, I don't plan to ever sell it, so resale value isn't as important to me as longevity of the vehicle and cost over the duration. But life is unpredictable, so I still considered if I needed or chose to sell it at some point.

The average new car depreciates 63% in the first 5 years (source: Edmunds). So on a $32k Leaf that's an expected value at 5 years of about $12k. My net purchase cost is $13.5k, so it's pretty close right there.

The tax credits further distort the resale value until they expire or are cancelled, since the competition is against a new car minus tax credits. They will expire for different manufacturers at a different rate. Nissan's will almost certainly expire first (they're already about 1/3 of the way to the 200k sales mark where the federal credits are phased out). It's hard to predict how long it will take other manufacturers to hit their expiration point. I think EVs are really taking off, but the other manufacturers are a bit slow to ramp up. I see 2 or 3 Leafs in the parking lot every time I go to Home Depot. I see Leafs every day driving to and from work. I was in a lane in traffic with 3 Leafs on Thursday. Perhaps they will expire for Nissan in the next 2 years. And other manufacturers in the next 5+? Hard to predict.

And the technology is another uncertainty. I think that the average person doesn't need more than the 100 mile range that I get. But the availability of relatively inexpensive 150 or 200 mile range vehicles (that's the outer limit of what could be put into a $30k vehicle in the next 5 years) is limited by both the cost of the batteries (which is coming down about 8-9% per year) and the size and weight of the batteries (which are also improving over time). They are complicated engineering problems and will take time to improve more than incrementally. So perhaps the availability of a 150-mile range vehicle depresses the 5-year resale value of the 2014 version by 2/3 the cost to add the equivalent amount of batteries to the 2014 version to extend its range. I'm guessing 2/3 the cost since not everyone would need/want the extra range (I don't come close to needing it anywhere I go). That would probably be $2-4k (assuming technology has advanced enough to even allow the affordable 150-mile version).

That would make a 5 year-old Leaf (still under battery and EV powertrain warranty) with almost no maintenance expense and $10/month energy costs be worth about $7-9k. So perhaps a $4-6k depreciation hit (after credits), but with $6-8k in energy and maintenance savings (vs ICE with moderate mustachian mileage). But I also don't have any money of my own in the deal until after about 3-4 years of payments (due to the tax credits--which I can invest), so the opportunity cost of funds is low or even negative. So I still see myself coming out ahead on the deal after 5 years if I sold it then.

By comparison, if I'd purchased an average ICE at $20k (no tax credits), it would probably be worth about $7.5k (by the Edmunds stat). A much bigger depreciation hit of $12.5k plus the extra $6-8k in gas and maintenance vs electric (more if a heavy driver), and the significant opportunity cost of the funds. I think the Leaf is a huge win. Honestly, it's pretty close to making sense even without tax credits. Not quite, due to the limited range and uncertainties. But those factors will get better with time.

By comparison with leasing, if I could do a 5 year lease (to compare apples to apples) that cost probably $12k in payments over 5 years (a guess), I would be out $7k (after state tax credit) and have to give the car back vs being out $13.5k and getting to keep the $7-9k car. This is obviously a much closer call. I was thinking about whether I should trade in my ICE and get a 2nd Leaf and leasing that one (going to one car around the time I might quit working).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 02, 2014, 01:14:33 PM
I am using my Leaf as a commuter car.  Leased a 2015 at $0 down, $290/month for 24 months.  23 payments.  I was using an SUV for a 20 mile each way commuter(I say in shame), so the monthly payment is less than my fuel bill yet I have no oil changes, no maintenance, no depreciation, and we now have another family car as we have four kids coming into driving ages. 

Congrats on the savings! It's exciting to do something that's better for the environment, more fun, and saves you money. In Georgia, I'm told by other lessees that the $5k state tax credit can be claimed based on the lease payments as well, so even though you're paying ~$7k in payments over 2 years, the full $5k credit is available in year one.

So a major take away is to look at your AMT calculations (federal form 6251 and state form) to determine if you have any room for the credit.  If not the Lease may be a good deal.  $190/month if you want a 36 monthly lease.  Zero down, 35 months.  You can buy the car at the residual which was about $15k for the 24 month lease or $13k for the 36 month lease.     

If you're planning to buy, buying up front should be a much better deal for anyone who can take advantage of the tax credits, especially if your state has one. Nissan has $3500 cash back and 0% interest on top of that too for purchasers. My net cost of $13.5k is better/close to your residual cost, and I didn't have to make ~$7k in payments on top of that.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DarinC on August 02, 2014, 02:06:09 PM
That's a crazy good price. Once my earnings increase (or my wife and I file jointly), I was thinking about getiing an i-MiEV, but $13500+ttl for a Leaf is pretty tempting too. That's only ~$1000 more than an i. Still, if I can talk the Mitsubishi dealer down given how low the Leaf is, maybe I can grab one for ~$12000+ttl.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 04, 2014, 10:34:23 AM
That's a crazy good price. Once my earnings increase (or my wife and I file jointly), I was thinking about getiing an i-MiEV, but $13500+ttl for a Leaf is pretty tempting too. That's only ~$1000 more than an i. Still, if I can talk the Mitsubishi dealer down given how low the Leaf is, maybe I can grab one for ~$12000+ttl.

$13.5k includes the federal and Georgia tax credits along with $3.5k cash back from Nissan. I looked into the iMiev, but they didn't have any in Georgia that I could find. Same with the Spark EV or Fit EV.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: hexdexorex on August 09, 2014, 09:47:39 AM
Buy another and ship it to me in CA. Leafs out here are not discounted (at least right now)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: AccidentalMiser on August 10, 2014, 02:28:31 PM
I remember about two years back I calculated the tax difference for buying a Chevy Volt. The tax system benefits the higher earner. On my income I would only reap about $1500-2000 but my Mom at a higher income would get the full $7500. I wonder how many people buy one without doing the tax math or find out later they don't get the full amount.

I did this in 2007 with the purchase of a Honda Civic Hybrid.  Single income, lots of kids (and attendant tax credits), no tax credit for me!

My, how things change in 7 years!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Gin1984 on August 10, 2014, 03:36:26 PM
For anyone who owns an electric car and likes to travel, you may also want to check universities.  Many, including my undergrad and grad, have free charging stations (and ironically free parking, unlike every other bloody spot). 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 11, 2014, 08:04:02 AM
For anyone who owns an electric car and likes to travel, you may also want to check universities.  Many, including my undergrad and grad, have free charging stations (and ironically free parking, unlike every other bloody spot).

I haven't tried this, but I'm told that Nissan dealers let Leaf owners charge there for free. I looked at a map of dealers and thought it might be possible to go on a long road trip just stopping at dealerships.

There are apps like PlugShare and ChargePoint you can download that point you to available charging stations or outlets (including 240V outlets that charge much faster). And the charging station map is actually built into the SL and SV versions of the Leaf (I bought the base model S so I don't have that). The apps tell you if there is any fee to use the station and whether it's currently occupied. I haven't actually tried to use the services anywhere on the road since I always charge at home. You can also find charging stations through websites like https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point

It turns out that a lot of Walgreens have stations near my house. I saw a blog where people drove across country a couple years ago and even trickle charged overnight by running the cord through their hotel window. If you have a 240V charging station (like the one I bought), I'm told that RV parks tend to have the outlets you can plug into and charge pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: kudy on August 11, 2014, 08:14:20 PM
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tomsang on August 12, 2014, 08:33:03 AM
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.

If you are looking to buy or lease a new car. The best way that I have found is to figure out exactly what model, options, colors, charging package, floor mats, etc. Do a test drive with a a dealer but flat out refuse to negotiate a price. Walk out. Even if you are curious. Why waste time stuck in their trap. Escape. The price that they give you will be thousands off so why bother.

Go home. Call up 10-15 or so dealers and ask for their fleet manager/internet sales manager's email addresses. Most likely you will be transferred to talk with them. Refuse to discuss what you want. Tell them that you will email them all the details later in the day so there is no misunderstanding.

A few days before the end of the month. Send out your email spelling out exactly what you want. From research include MSRP and invoice for the car and model that you are looking at. I recommend using a SPAM email for this. You should tell them that you plan on buying on the last day of the month, that you don't need a test drive, that you want financing or don't want financing, that you don't have a trade in, that you are buying from whoever is the cheapest.

If you are buying new. You are buying a commodity. They have nothing else to offer except the lowest price. If they call or email with good questions then answer them. If they want to negotiate, just politely tell them that you don't like to negotiate and that you are going to buy from the cheapest provider of your exact model. Some will refuse to play the game, but others will.

I went from the person that I test drove telling me that $32k was the internet price and an amazing price to finding the exact same vehicle for $28,500 - $11k in federal and Nissan rebates. Once you have what you feel is the best price. Schedule an appointment to pick up the car. That you only have 30 minutes.

All the paperwork should be ready and you should be able to drive out in less than an hour. I have helped friends purchase cars where they brought a cashier's check and were out in 15 minutes.

No stress, no hassle. From the emails from the dealers they are stressing to win the sale.


If you are going to lease specify 0 down, ask for the cost per mile over the 12,000, number of payments and ask about the residual values. Again ensuring that it is apples to apples.  If anyone comes up different ask them what happened. If you learn something, let everyone know what in your ask has changed.

I actually called the Nissan dealer that was 6 miles away and asked them if they could match or beat the lowest. They said they couldn't. I ended up leasing from a place that was 12 miles away.

If you have a trade in you can inquire about that. This way you are comparing two very specific transactions. You know what you are getting for each.

Good luck. I am confident that you will get the $3,500 plus more if you use email as a tool. Total time to buy a car was less than 3 hours including test drive, finding email addresses, filling out paperwork, etc. stress was close to zero.

Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 12, 2014, 09:52:04 AM
I echo tomsang's advice. What I did was to just email exactly what I wanted and ask for their "out the door" price on it. Some dealers just put me on their mailing list. Some just kept calling. Some responded with "when can you come in?". I ignored those. The dealers that responded with a price, I followed up with. I made sure I knew exactly what was in the price. Every single dealer included the $3500 cash back from Nissan for financing in the price they quoted me. And some quoted me the VPP pricing, without asking whether I had VPP eligibility (I don't). Dealers just want to get you in the door and start negotiating with you so they can take advantage of you. Don't waste your time going to dealerships until you have the deal worked out already. Let them compete against each other. And the place I bought mine was maybe the 10th closest Nissan dealer, but they had the best price. Don't play their games.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 12, 2014, 10:09:32 AM
Dang, based on this post I researched possibilities for myself here in Colorado, but it's not as good.

First, the dealer is telling me to choose between 0% financing and the 3500 credit, I can't have both.

2nd, the list price is 32500 for the S trim package, guess they don't need to mark down in my market?

There is a $6000 state credit, but the deal is probably not low enough for me to go for it.

That dealer is trying to screw you. That happened to me too. If you agreed to that deal, they would either pocket the $3500 themselves or pocket the interest you'd be paying on the loan. The dealer I went to played dumb and pretended they didn't know about the $3500 and 0% financing for 6 years offer. But I held firm and they relented. I had to ask about it repeatedly.

I forget exactly what MSRP was on mine, but that's just a made up number anyway. I paid a few hundred dollars below invoice, even including the dealer fee (i.e. "profit fee"). And on invoice, the dealer is still making money (they get about 3% of the invoice price from the manufacturer after making the sale, and sometimes get additional bonuses on top of that). So I think MSRP was something like $31k for mine and I paid something like $28k, and then subtracted the $3500 and then added tax and registration. And then I'll get the tax credits early next year. And I financed for 6 years at 0%.

The first tactic they used once I showed up was to say "oh, that was the VPP price" and I never said I was VPP or even mentioned the program--nor did they mention that it was VPP in the email. The second tactic was to try to steal my trade-in by offering even less than CarMax did (and CarMax offers $1k below wholesale value). So I just rejected the offer and sold it separately. The third tactic was to pretend that I couldn't get the 0% financing (they offered me 5% and I have 800+ credit--my credit union pre-approved me for 1.5%). In the end, I got a solid deal and they still made money off me.

Also, don't pay for any extras like nitrogen or splash guards or any of that stuff. It if's valuable to you, include it in your email upfront--i.e. "What's your best out-the-door price for  a 2015 S with charging package, floor mats, and cargo mat?" That way each dealer is competing based on what you want only. In my case my car came with splash guards and some door protection stuff, but I didn't pay a penny for it because they were competing based on my ask and not their silly "upgrades".
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Nords on August 12, 2014, 10:58:17 AM
These last four posts make me wonder why people prefer dealers to buying used on Craigslist.  Frankly the dealers' behavior seems far worse than the Craigslist flakes, and Craigslist offers a lot more "market ignorance" to exploit.

While I appreciate the math of discounts and tax credits, my main interest in an EV is being able to recharge it from a net-metered photovoltaic array.  In our case we'd be adding more (used) PV panels to our existing array, so the payback on panel costs would be less than a year of gasoline savings.  The payback on the car would take a little longer at $800-$1000/year of gas savings, but there doesn't seem to be much on a Leaf that would keep it from doing 20 years.

One of our neighbors is planning to sell her home next year as "PV array and Leaf included".  It'll be interesting to see whether it's just a negotiating gimmick or whether the market will recognize the value of either.  Otherwise we'd be happy to relieve her of the Leaf and the charging package.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Bob W on August 13, 2014, 09:11:40 AM
Had to reread this post today ---  Really,  this is one of the best posts I've seen here.  Real and useful information from someone who did it!

Sadly,  I'm still too far from the city life to be able to use this strategy,  but in 2 years, when we move to the town of 100K citizens,  I will be very open to this type of strategy.

Excellent work my friend, and thank you so much for sharing!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: kudy on August 13, 2014, 09:21:15 AM
Thanks tomsang and forummm, great advice on how to respond!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: enigmaT120 on August 13, 2014, 12:58:36 PM
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Nords on August 13, 2014, 01:55:24 PM
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living.
The "problem" with an EV supplying the house would be recharging it.

It's fairly common with a hybrid like a Prius, though:
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/post--use-your-prius-car-to-power-your-house-in-an-outage
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DarinC on August 13, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Nords on August 13, 2014, 09:23:44 PM
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 14, 2014, 08:43:46 AM
I wonder if anybody yet is using a Leaf or other electric car as a battery storage for off the grid living.

One of the positive externalities of the ever-increasing sales of EVs is that batteries are getting much better, lighter, smaller, and cheaper every year. That means the cost to live off the grid is going down too. In about 5-10 years, when used EV batteries start coming onto the market in large volumes (accidents, upgrades, deterioration, etc), they should provide a cheap battery storage solution. Nissan estimates that used Leaf battery packs will be worth about $1000, but they will still have 12-15kWh of useable storage capacity.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 15, 2014, 08:55:34 AM
If you're eligible for Nissan's VPP program, the deal gets even better. You can purchase at $1000 off the invoice price. And get over $1000 off of a lease as well. VPP is available for employees of many companies, Nissan employees, military and veterans, and friends and family of people eligible for VPP. Learn more at http://www.insidenissan.com/monthly_plans.html

For those in Georgia, leasing is also an interesting option due to the state tax credit. And if you're eligible for Nissan's VPP program, the deal is insanely good. Here's a deal that people have been getting this month in Georgia. I think the deals will get a little better in the next few months--but it's hard to beat this.

VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $209 OR $240 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit, over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*209)+395+80=5411, with the tax credit: 5411-5000=411 total for 24 months (or $17/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*240)+395+80=6155, with the tax credit: 6155-5000=1155 total for 24 months (or $48/month net).

Non-VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $249 OR $289 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*249)+395+80=6451, with the tax credit: 6451-5000=1451 total for 24 months (or $60/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*289)+395+80=7411, with the tax credit: 7411-5000=2411 total for 24 months (or $100/month net).

For the 36 month lease, the monthly payment would probably drop about $40-$50, but you can only get the tax credit one time, so the average total monthly cost of the lease would rise slightly (about $12/month added to the net totals above). I fully expect the state tax credit to be dramatically cut or eliminated by April (the legislature voted to axe it this year but adjourned before the house and senate versions could be reconciled), so this lease deal likely won't be available in 2 more years. The way the GA tax credit currently works is that you'd get the full $5k when you file your taxes for that year (assuming you have $5k in GA tax liability--if not the rest is rolled over to the next year).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 15, 2014, 09:01:04 AM
Non-VPP 24 month 2015 Nissan LEAF S models for: $249 OR $289 with upgraded charging package. GA tax is included in the payment. $80 down payment, 12,000 miles a year, $395 disposition fee.
With the tax credit over 2 years it's something like:
Standard charging package--(24*249)+395+80=6451, with the tax credit: 6451-5000=1451 total for 24 months (or $60/month net).
Upgraded charging package--(24*289)+395+80=7411, with the tax credit: 7411-5000=2411 total for 24 months (or $100/month net).

Since I don't have VPP eligibility, and I expect the GA tax credit to go away soon (so I can't just keep leasing a new car every 2 years), for me and my mustachian driving habits, I think purchasing is better than leasing.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrStash2000 on September 21, 2014, 07:46:03 PM
Kuddos to the author -

I am a new mustashian. This post inspired me to me to trade in (i know) my gas-hog Mustang convertible for a Leaf straight up. I am done with paying for gas.

Thanks to this site I have cut all unnecessary things from my budget and I am maxing my 457 / Roth IRA. Saving over 50% of my income is my new priority.

 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DarinC on September 26, 2014, 10:43:10 PM
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.
Yeah, that's the crumby part. Electricity from PV panels is dirt cheap, probably something like a cent per mile, but batteries are still kind of expensive. If a Leaf battery lasts ~100k miles, then that works out to ~5c/mile, which is great since running costs are equivalent to my Honda Insight @ 65mpg in a much larger car. If I have to essentially pay for two packs over ~100k miles instead of one (~$.11/mile), then that cost advantage is pretty much wiped out.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 30, 2014, 05:27:23 PM
I've always thought it would be neat if your work allowed you to set up a PV canopy to charge your car there. One of the big hangups to going off grid is charging at home since that would occur mostly at night.
It's just a bigger battery bank, which admittedly makes an EV less cost-effective.
Yeah, that's the crumby part. Electricity from PV panels is dirt cheap, probably something like a cent per mile, but batteries are still kind of expensive. If a Leaf battery lasts ~100k miles, then that works out to ~5c/mile, which is great since running costs are equivalent to my Honda Insight @ 65mpg in a much larger car. If I have to essentially pay for two packs over ~100k miles instead of one (~$.11/mile), then that cost advantage is pretty much wiped out.

Nissan provides an 8 year/100k mi warranty on the battery for workmanship and materials. And a 5 year/60k mi warranty on capacity (it will retain at least 67% or they swap it out). So if you wanted to drive it for 100k miles, you probably don't need a replacement. If you wanted to drive for 200k miles, then you might want to replace it once. But by then, batteries should be really cheap and have much larger capacity and take up less space and be lighter. In the last 5 years or so batteries for EVs have dropped in cost about 50% and in weight by about 30%. I think replacing a Leaf battery will cost around $2-3k when I'm ready for a replacement. But that replacement could also provide much greater range. It'll be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 30, 2014, 05:37:51 PM
Big update: I bought a 2nd Leaf! And I sold the Corolla, so now we're EV transportation only. I got a 2015 Leaf S w/charging package (and floor mats and splash guards). I paid below invoice less holdback (i.e. slightly less than the dealer's cost--they'll make money through bonuses for volume and other kickbacks). Then Nissan kicked in $3500 and 0% for 3 years. After tax credits my net cost will be $13.2k.

My spreadsheets calculate that it's $1k/yr (averaged over a 5 year period) less expensive to have the Leaf than the Corolla, including depreciation, insurance, energy, maintenance, repairs, taxes, opportunity cost of funds, emissions testing, and renting an ICE for road trips (which actually may not be necessary for long given the recent charging infrastructure improvements announced).

After driving it around for a day, I notice that Nissan improved the energy efficiency a bit, so I might be able to get 120 miles of range on it. I'll have to test soon.

CarMax said my 2014 Leaf is still worth $5500 more than I paid for it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Kyrene on October 02, 2014, 11:36:19 AM
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: jedichikin on October 02, 2014, 02:36:58 PM
Could I theoretically drive to GA, and take advantage of the $5k, GA incentives (I live in Tennessee) where the only incentive is the HOV Lane access. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: cdub on October 02, 2014, 02:39:46 PM
I'm pretty sure you need to be a resident.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on October 03, 2014, 07:09:33 AM
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.

I just let the dealers bid against each other. I waited until the end of the month (when dealers and salesmen are trying to hit their numbers from the manufacturer to get the large bonuses--so they're willing to sell a car for their cost because they'll get a big bonus). So if some dealers already hit their numbers they may offer a higher price. Those that are more desperate will offer better prices. I sent 10 local dealers this email (through the contact form on their websites):

Quote
Hi,

I already own a 2014 Leaf and am ready to buy a 2015 today. If you treat me right, give me a great deal, and make this easy I'll give all 10's on the survey--and I don't need to be walked through the features after I buy (saves you time).

What's your best out-the-door price (PURCHASE not lease) for a 2015 Leaf S with charging package? Please include the $3500 NMAC rebate for financing in your offer. Please email your quote and do not call me.

I am getting quotes from other dealers, so I recommend providing your best price up front. And I will not "Come on in" until we've already finalized the deal, so please don't waste time suggesting that.

Thanks,

I had offers come in over the course of about 4 hours. I had 3 dealers offer the same price. 3 others offer prices 200-500 higher. And a few that were up to a couple grand higher. Another friend went to one of those first 3 dealers and was offered that same price I was offered (perhaps because I told her about it and she asked for it--I didn't ask for details on her process). I mentioned the survey in my email because salesmen get paid in part on the results of their customer surveys. So it's juicing the deal for them. On a sale like mine the salesman will get $150 (it's a "mini" and no commission) plus $200-$500 because it's a Leaf (they push a button and a machine tells them what their Leaf bonus is) plus bonuses for hitting his numbers. He had 1.5 days left in the month and was 2 cars away from a $4k bonus.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on October 03, 2014, 07:14:57 AM
Big update: I bought a 2nd Leaf!

Here are more details:
2015 Leaf S w/upgraded charging package, floor/cargo mats, splashguards
Invoice (incl marketing): 30465
Sale price: 28490
Dealer fee: 734
NMAC rebate: -3500
Total taxable: 25724
Financed this plus state tax (GA charges up front 6.75% and then doesn't charge annual tax for registration--just $20) at 0% for 36 mos. I'll get the $12,500 in tax credits when I file in February.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on October 03, 2014, 07:19:21 AM
My friend has a very non-Mustachian commute (90 miles RT) and is going to save the entire net price of the car in less than 5 years just from not buying gas anymore (~$3k/yr in savings for electric vs gas). He can charge at work if he needs to (90 miles RT is too far for a Leaf if you use climate control and drive on the freeway and in year 2 or later when the battery capacity drops a bit).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on October 03, 2014, 07:24:11 AM
Could I theoretically drive to GA, and take advantage of the $5k, GA incentives (I live in Tennessee) where the only incentive is the HOV Lane access. Thanks.
The GA tax credit is based on your GA taxable income. So you'd have to make enough money (over 5 years if needed) in GA to have to pay GA $5k in income taxes for you to get the full credit. I assume this is not the case for you. You may need to be a resident as well, but I don't know for sure. Here's a summary http://www.nissanusa.com/ev/media/pdf/incentives/nissan-leaf-incentive-24.pdf
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Kyrene on January 09, 2015, 03:17:13 PM
I've been keeping my eye on the Nissan Leaf for the last few months since OP started this thread. For my situation it probably makes sense to buy a used 2011/2012 Leaf since i'm in Texas and don't really make enough for the tax incentives to be worth it. (But have about 15k to buy my next car in cash.)

In my area there aren't really any privately owned Leaf vehicles available, but there are a lot coming off leases at places like Carmax. Looks like for somewhere in the 12-15k range there are many Leaf cars to choose from with between 10-50k miles.

My question is this: for those of you who have had an earlier model Leaf, how has the purchase worked out for you? Is the battery holding up well and giving you decent range? I'm trying to decide between an all electric like the Leaf, or getting a Prius.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ColorOfCash on January 10, 2015, 07:59:36 AM
My question is this: for those of you who have had an earlier model Leaf, how has the purchase worked out for you? Is the battery holding up well and giving you decent range? I'm trying to decide between an all electric like the Leaf, or getting a Prius.

Based upon the leaf forums, I would recommend the Prius for you. The older models in southern states have battery degradation issues. If you do go with the Leaf, buy a gid meter beforehand to test the battery, the dashboard doesn't give enough detail on how degraded the battery is and you can't tell if it was kept in an AC garage or in a hot parking lot boiling the battery.

I'm 1 year into my lease, only reasons I went with the lease is the degradation concern and 200 mile models from multiple manufacturers around 2017.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: GreenPen on January 17, 2015, 09:09:17 PM
I've been keeping my eye on the Nissan Leaf for the last few months since OP started this thread. For my situation it probably makes sense to buy a used 2011/2012 Leaf since i'm in Texas and don't really make enough for the tax incentives to be worth it. (But have about 15k to buy my next car in cash.)

It looks like Texas offers a $2500 rebate on plug-in electric vehicles. Although I would speculate that this rebate on new vehicles would also lower the cost of used vehicles in the area.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on March 04, 2015, 08:59:46 AM
How have you found insurance to stack up?

I bought a 3 year old Leaf SL for $13K last weekend.  I was unpleasantly surprised by the cost of insurance - $1400/year, vs. $950/year for our 2012 Honda CR-V.  At 10,000 miles/year the insurance difference almost eats all of the fuel savings.  I'm still excited to drive an electric car, just sort of miffed at the insurance industry.

As for the used vs. new decision: I am only planning to keep the car for 3 years, until the new cool things come to market.  I only replaced my old car (2005 Scion xA) because she was in the shop too often.  I test drove a 2015 Leaf S and enjoyed it, but didn't think I could stomach the 3 year depreciation ($6-8K).  I looked into a lease, but it was $295/month ($10,600 over 3 years) and a residual of $12,800.  Again, I couldn't stomach spending $10K for 3 years in a car.  I found the car I ended up buying at a Nissan dealership a certified pre-owned.  It still reads 12 bars on the battery (though I don't think that 12th bar has much in it) and has new tires (the only thing our friend's Leaf has needed replaced in the 4 years he has owned it).  If I keep the car 3 years I think depreciation will be under $6K, but only time will tell. 

On the upside, maintenance should be WAY cheaper: rotate tires every fall, rotate tires and replace cabin air filter every spring(plus dealer battery check/general car inspection), replace tires every 3 years/36,000 miles.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on March 05, 2015, 07:47:39 AM
How have you found insurance to stack up?

I bought a 3 year old Leaf SL for $13K last weekend.  I was unpleasantly surprised by the cost of insurance - $1400/year, vs. $950/year for our 2012 Honda CR-V.  At 10,000 miles/year the insurance difference almost eats all of the fuel savings.  I'm still excited to drive an electric car, just sort of miffed at the insurance industry.

As for the used vs. new decision: I am only planning to keep the car for 3 years, until the new cool things come to market.  I only replaced my old car (2005 Scion xA) because she was in the shop too often.  I test drove a 2015 Leaf S and enjoyed it, but didn't think I could stomach the 3 year depreciation ($6-8K).  I looked into a lease, but it was $295/month ($10,600 over 3 years) and a residual of $12,800.  Again, I couldn't stomach spending $10K for 3 years in a car.  I found the car I ended up buying at a Nissan dealership a certified pre-owned.  It still reads 12 bars on the battery (though I don't think that 12th bar has much in it) and has new tires (the only thing our friend's Leaf has needed replaced in the 4 years he has owned it).  If I keep the car 3 years I think depreciation will be under $6K, but only time will tell. 

On the upside, maintenance should be WAY cheaper: rotate tires every fall, rotate tires and replace cabin air filter every spring(plus dealer battery check/general car inspection), replace tires every 3 years/36,000 miles.

My insurance for a brand new Leaf was about 25% higher than for a 2010 Corolla. The Leaf had a resale value of over twice the Corolla, so that makes sense (and may even be cheaper than expected).

Yes, a brand new Leaf has quick depreciation--even a bit faster than the quick depreciation of any new car. But that depreciation is more than made up for by the tax credits. I literally could sell my car today for thousands more than I paid for it because of negotiating a good deal, getting the rebate from Nissan, and the tax credits. Leasing a new car is always expensive. The lease deal you were offered is expensive compared to many I've seen (like $100/mo more).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: DarinC on March 05, 2015, 04:15:35 PM
Yeah, the depreciation is only high because of the tax credit/various state rebates.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Bicycle_B on March 07, 2015, 08:40:03 PM
Hey Forumm,

Thanks for the update and the breakdown. Can you tell us more about your process in talking them down to below dealer cost? Did you walk in to a dealership and talk to them, just email a lot of dealerships in your area, or go another route?

I've been keeping my eye on this thread for a while, and would appreciate more info on your process to get as low a price as possible. I'm in Texas so unfortunately I only get $2500 at a state level, but the math still may work in my favor.

I just let the dealers bid against each other. I waited until the end of the month (when dealers and salesmen are trying to hit their numbers from the manufacturer to get the large bonuses--so they're willing to sell a car for their cost because they'll get a big bonus). So if some dealers already hit their numbers they may offer a higher price. Those that are more desperate will offer better prices. I sent 10 local dealers this email (through the contact form on their websites):

Quote
Hi,

I already own a 2014 Leaf and am ready to buy a 2015 today. If you treat me right, give me a great deal, and make this easy I'll give all 10's on the survey--and I don't need to be walked through the features after I buy (saves you time).

What's your best out-the-door price (PURCHASE not lease) for a 2015 Leaf S with charging package? Please include the $3500 NMAC rebate for financing in your offer. Please email your quote and do not call me.

I am getting quotes from other dealers, so I recommend providing your best price up front. And I will not "Come on in" until we've already finalized the deal, so please don't waste time suggesting that.

Thanks,

I had offers come in over the course of about 4 hours. I had 3 dealers offer the same price. 3 others offer prices 200-500 higher. And a few that were up to a couple grand higher. Another friend went to one of those first 3 dealers and was offered that same price I was offered (perhaps because I told her about it and she asked for it--I didn't ask for details on her process). I mentioned the survey in my email because salesmen get paid in part on the results of their customer surveys. So it's juicing the deal for them. On a sale like mine the salesman will get $150 (it's a "mini" and no commission) plus $200-$500 because it's a Leaf (they push a button and a machine tells them what their Leaf bonus is) plus bonuses for hitting his numbers. He had 1.5 days left in the month and was 2 cars away from a $4k bonus.

Awesome explanation.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on April 20, 2015, 09:17:03 AM
I've been thinking about this ever since the thread came out last year. My DH just drove one of these last week and really liked it.  A friend at his work purchased one. 

He currently drives an Audi, and his commute is a non-mustachian 50 miles (He does WFH one day a week). Compared to the 20 MPG and premium gas required, the Leaf at 125 MPG effective rate sounds pretty darn attractive.

I have 2 questions:

1) Has anyone used a ChargePoint station?  Since his commute is 100 miles RT, I think he'd need to charge for 2 hours at a ChargePoint each day if he were to take this car to work.  (From looking at the ChargePoint map there is a ChargePoint about 1 block from his office at an apartment complex. We'd have to see if he could charge there or if it is for residents only.)

2) If you are in the AMT for tax purposes, will this affect your ability to use the federal credits?  From what I see, it looks like the credits are included after the AMT is calculated, so I think we should still be able to benefit from this.

The one big drawback I see is that the 2015 Leaf cannot reach our FIRE/2nd house without charging on the way, and there is only one real stopping point.  If the charger at that point is busy, we'd be in a real bind. It's at the maximum range 90 miles away (and NOTHING is around close by). I think we'd need to stop for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and grocery shop to make it there.  It would be really awful to run out of power in the middle of nowhere.

I have heard the 2016 Leaf "might" have a battery that would go 125 miles.  This is the range I think we need, so I am waiting to see if that is true I think before I buy.  If 125 is the range, I think it's a good opportunity. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on April 20, 2015, 05:42:55 PM
I've been thinking about this ever since the thread came out last year. My DH just drove one of these last week and really liked it.  A friend at his work purchased one. 

He currently drives an Audi, and his commute is a non-mustachian 50 miles (He does WFH one day a week). Compared to the 20 MPG and premium gas required, the Leaf at 125 MPG effective rate sounds pretty darn attractive.

I have 2 questions:

1) Has anyone used a ChargePoint station?  Since his commute is 100 miles RT, I think he'd need to charge for 2 hours at a ChargePoint each day if he were to take this car to work.  (From looking at the ChargePoint map there is a ChargePoint about 1 block from his office at an apartment complex. We'd have to see if he could charge there or if it is for residents only.)

2) If you are in the AMT for tax purposes, will this affect your ability to use the federal credits?  From what I see, it looks like the credits are included after the AMT is calculated, so I think we should still be able to benefit from this.

The one big drawback I see is that the 2015 Leaf cannot reach our FIRE/2nd house without charging on the way, and there is only one real stopping point.  If the charger at that point is busy, we'd be in a real bind. It's at the maximum range 90 miles away (and NOTHING is around close by). I think we'd need to stop for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and grocery shop to make it there.  It would be really awful to run out of power in the middle of nowhere.

I have heard the 2016 Leaf "might" have a battery that would go 125 miles.  This is the range I think we need, so I am waiting to see if that is true I think before I buy.  If 125 is the range, I think it's a good opportunity.

I have never used a public charging station. I have friends who are able to charge at work either with their EVSE that comes with the car (plugs into a standard household outlet) or with a 240V (like for a clothes dryer or electric range outlet) charging  station that you can purchase on your own ($300-600 for a quality one). We bought one of the 240V charging stations for our garage and I installed a 240V outlet myself in there. It's super convenient. A friend's employer added a 240V outlet at his work so he could charge there for his 90 mile RT commute. You can see if any of those options are available.

Yes, the credits are not subject to the AMT. They are deducted to whatever your total tax burden is. I would have been subject to the AMT with my $15000 in credits in one year, but I ended up getting the full amount in credits.

I would not expect to be able to go 90 miles for sure one way without charging. If you drive inefficiently, or at freeway speeds, or run climate control, or it gets really cold out, your range declines somewhat. And the battery capacity declines somewhat over the years as it ages. If you need to go that far without charging, I wouldn't do it.

The 2016 Leaf should have about the same range as a 2015. I think it's the 2017 model (which may be available late 2016 or early 2017) that will have a much larger range.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on April 20, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
Thanks forummm - more food for thought! 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: FrugalKube on April 20, 2015, 09:38:33 PM
Interesting I'll have to keep an eye on this and see what Wa State offers
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on April 21, 2015, 06:46:14 AM
Thanks forummm - more food for thought!

Many households with 2 vehicles use the Leaf for most of the in-town driving and the ICE for trips. Since we have 2 Leafs, we plan to rent a car if we go on a long trip (although it's been 8 months and we haven't had to do that yet). I don't know whether you plan to have 2 vehicles or not. And if you move to your FIRE house, you can tow the car behind your moving truck.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on April 21, 2015, 06:33:02 PM
LOL we have 3 cars.  Realistically I should get rid of my clown SUV '12 Honda Pilot for the Leaf (pre MMM and paid off - used for towing).  We have an '05 minivan that "can" tow our boat for the short distance to the docking area.  This 3rd car is for visiting relatives (used about 4 months of the year) and keeping mileage off the Pilot.  They were only offering $4K for trade in at the dealer, and DH thought we should keep it.

I can borrow DH's "nice" car for client lunches if needed, and if I did have to work at greater than range I could use the old car.  DS will be getting his permit this Summer - better to keep our '05 minivan with dents for him to learn on.  We have a cross-country road trip this Summer to California.  Once we get back is when I am thinking about doing the switch. By then there should be good incentives on the '15.

That 125 MPG is what I keep drooling over....And the "paying me to drive it" part....
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on April 22, 2015, 07:59:40 AM
LOL we have 3 cars.  Realistically I should get rid of my clown SUV '12 Honda Pilot for the Leaf (pre MMM and paid off - used for towing).  We have an '05 minivan that "can" tow our boat for the short distance to the docking area.  This 3rd car is for visiting relatives (used about 4 months of the year) and keeping mileage off the Pilot.  They were only offering $4K for trade in at the dealer, and DH thought we should keep it.

I can borrow DH's "nice" car for client lunches if needed, and if I did have to work at greater than range I could use the old car.  DS will be getting his permit this Summer - better to keep our '05 minivan with dents for him to learn on.  We have a cross-country road trip this Summer to California.  Once we get back is when I am thinking about doing the switch. By then there should be good incentives on the '15.

That 125 MPG is what I keep drooling over....And the "paying me to drive it" part....

You can often get a better price selling your used car yourself, or even taking it to some place like CarMax than going through a dealer.

Current '15 Leaf incentives are $3500 cash back and 0% financing for 6 years. I don't think they will get any better than that this year.

For someone with such a long commute, the car would pay for itself. I don't know what incentive you have in your state, but with the $5k tax credit in GA (for the next couple months anyway), I had a friend buy one with a net cost of $13k after tax credits. In gas savings alone for his also ridiculous 90 mile commute, he will save $13k in 4 years. So it is paying him to drive it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: TheDude on April 22, 2015, 08:26:54 AM
I hate this thread every time I see it just gets me all worked up again. I really want a leaf its just seems like such a big investment. I think I would be more likely to pull the trigger if the the sales tax/registration didn't cost $2500. Here in Colorado we have pretty could incentives (about 5100) so I could get the cost down but we dont get any incentives like the cheap electricity. Forummm are they scaling back on that benefit too?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on April 22, 2015, 08:07:27 PM
I hate this thread every time I see it just gets me all worked up again. I really want a leaf its just seems like such a big investment. I think I would be more likely to pull the trigger if the the sales tax/registration didn't cost $2500. Here in Colorado we have pretty could incentives (about 5100) so I could get the cost down but we dont get any incentives like the cheap electricity. Forummm are they scaling back on that benefit too?

Colorado is a great place to buy a Leaf. You'd get a slightly better deal than I did. For me, it was cheaper to buy a brand new Leaf, all costs considered, than to keep my 5-year old Corolla. And since I was able to invest all the sales proceeds for my old car and pocket the tax returns while slowly paying off a 0% interest loan, I'm coming out even further ahead. I've made probably over $5k just on investing the money for the 2 cars.

My utility still has great electric vehicle rate plans. Does yours not have any time of use rate?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 22, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
Ok, so I'm super dense and I apologize if these are dumb questions or already been answered-

1.Is the leaf available for the maximum $7,500 credit. Looks like 2500 per car + more for the battery size? Looks like/I assume it meets the full amount?

2. We are a single income family right now, so we don't pay anywhere near $7,500 in fed taxes right now. Can this be phased over multiple years?

3. Same question for MD state tax credit ? (looks like 3K)

4. I don't see the $3500 credit and/or 0% on Nissan website? They still have that or was that a 2014 thing.

Thanks! These look sweet but we are in a debt emergency so it really would have to "pay me to drive it". My wife's commute is only 13 miles so we don't use a ton of gas. But a lot of our weekend socialization stuff is 40-50 mile round trips.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on April 23, 2015, 09:28:09 AM
Ok, so I'm super dense and I apologize if these are dumb questions or already been answered-

1.Is the leaf available for the maximum $7,500 credit. Looks like 2500 per car + more for the battery size? Looks like/I assume it meets the full amount?

2. We are a single income family right now, so we don't pay anywhere near $7,500 in fed taxes right now. Can this be phased over multiple years?

3. Same question for MD state tax credit ? (looks like 3K)

4. I don't see the $3500 credit and/or 0% on Nissan website? They still have that or was that a 2014 thing.

Thanks! These look sweet but we are in a debt emergency so it really would have to "pay me to drive it". My wife's commute is only 13 miles so we don't use a ton of gas. But a lot of our weekend socialization stuff is 40-50 mile round trips.

1) Yes, the full $7500 federal, plus whatever your state adds on top of that.
2) No, the federal credit is for one tax year only. If you lease you can take advantage of the credit through Nissan. Nissan gets the credit and discounts the lease price about that much. For example on an S you can get $8750. But you don't get the $3500 rebate on top of that because that's for purchasing only. If you buy at the end of the lease, your purchase price should be a lot lower due to the credit. You would need to shop around (as mentioned in earlier posts) to get the best deal.
3) I have no idea about Maryland. Especially for a lease if you go that route.
4) They've had the same offer every month for a year or so. A few months the financing was only for up to 3 years. http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2015/car-incentives.html
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Longwaytogo on April 23, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
Ok, thanks for reply!

So looks like we only paid about $2500 in fed taxes so that would be leaving 5K on table, though this year we will probably be $1000-$1200 more with a little higher income.

We did pay $3566 to MD (WTF are state taxes often higher than feds? I guess the 2K child tax credit made it that way) so we could get the whole $3K state credit.

Depending on how much our trade in was worth I'm guessing the payment to be in the $400 range. We would maybe only save $100-$150 on gas (especially at the $2.50 we have been paying; though I'm sure it will go up at some point). And as others have mentioned our insurance would go way up since we currently only pay liability and would need collision/comp with the loan.

Still intriguing, but looks like it will not work for us at this time. Thanks forummm; looks like it's really working out for you guys!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on May 01, 2015, 01:40:17 PM
First of all, thanks forummm. Great information.

I was wondering what I could get it for. Since my wife works in a company which is part of the VPP, I also get that.
This is what I think I will get (numbers for MSRP, Invoice, VPP etc from Nissan VPP site)

MSRP                  $29,010
Dealer Invoice   $27,486
VPP Discount   $1,000
Fed Tax Credit         $7,500
NJ Tax Credit           $4,000
Nissan Cash             $3,500
(No NJ Sales tax on EV)

Total Cost $11,486  $15486


Wow! Good, but not great.

Edit: Really bummed that the NJ credit is not available. ( As per the Nissan site ,but still shows up on the other one).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on May 01, 2015, 01:42:20 PM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrStash2000 on May 01, 2015, 05:21:10 PM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

The quick charge is an option that is pretty much on ALL 2015s. It is the charging port that is found at most public charging stations.

I traded in my very unmustashian 2011 Mustashian Convertable for a 2015 Leaf. No regrets. I love the car.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on May 01, 2015, 08:17:31 PM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on May 02, 2015, 03:06:11 AM
The quick charge is an option that is pretty much on ALL 2015s. It is the charging port that is found at most public charging stations.

I traded in my very unmustashian 2011 Mustashian Convertable for a 2015 Leaf. No regrets. I love the car.

Thanks clarkevii.

I am now jonesing for a Leaf ;-)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on May 02, 2015, 03:06:58 AM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.

Thanks forummm, I need to explore the lease options.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: gaja on May 02, 2015, 06:25:13 AM
Interesting to see that the EV insentives in the US are so good. Here we get:

-Excemption from the normal (very high) car sale taxes
-Free toll road passes
-Free ferries
-A decent charging infrastructure, many places offer free charging (http://ladestasjoner.no/ [remove all ticks from the boxes, click on the blue ^ on the right side below the map, and then click on the middle symbol to see the map])
-Free parking
-Lower road tax

In some areas, almost 1/4 of the sale of new cars are EVs now. This means that "normal" people are also driving electric, not just the environmentalists and enthusiasts. And the problems are less than what we expected. Very few have experienced running out of power. Winters are not a big problem. Speed chargers solve most of the range issue. No grids have collapsed yet.

After a car accident, I exchanged the (now totalled) leaf for an e-NV200. I like it, but it is a van. The big plus is the 6.6kW charger.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on May 02, 2015, 10:21:37 AM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.

Thanks forummm, I need to explore the lease options.

Rereading my last post, I should clarify: As your lease is about to expire, you could then negotiate to purchase for below your residual price on the contract. So you can use VPP to get a good deal up front (and NMAC also provides over $8k off the purchase price since you can't get the federal tax credit for a lease). And then see if you can negotiate that good price even lower in a couple years when your lease is running out. I've seen other people say that NMAC would cut $4k or $5k off the residual price as their lease was expiring. I don't know if that's because they overpaid upfront, or what.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ender on May 02, 2015, 11:52:01 AM
This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrStash2000 on May 02, 2015, 12:11:35 PM
This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.

Ideal commute for a leaf is 50 miles or LESS. This car only works in certain circumstances. If it works for you I recommend it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on May 02, 2015, 06:22:10 PM
This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.

Ideal commute for a leaf is 50 miles or LESS. This car only works in certain circumstances. If it works for you I recommend it.

50 miles is pretty conservative. But if you blast the heater and drive fast, and the battery is 5 years old, it could be the right number. If you can charge at work you can up that figure. I get about 100-110 miles per charge consistently in the summer. But I drive efficiently and don't use the A/C. A friend has a 90 mile RT commute and drives 85 on the freeway. He can charge at work though.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrStash2000 on May 03, 2015, 08:14:19 AM
50 miles is conservative but I do not know where the OPs climate. Check out the mynissanleaf forums. They have LOTS of charts on range based off of speed and weather. The Leaf is a BOSS vehicle.... But do your homework. If it works for you go for it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on May 03, 2015, 12:15:11 PM
50 miles is conservative but I do not know where the OPs climate. Check out the mynissanleaf forums. They have LOTS of charts on range based off of speed and weather. The Leaf is a BOSS vehicle.... But do your homework. If it works for you go for it.

Yes, the mynissanleaf forum is a good resource. A lot of the people there got the original 2011, 2012, and 2013 models which had a different battery that could not stand up to the heat well and deteriorated quickly. For those batteries that did deteriorate quickly, Nissan is replacing them with their new model that is supposed to be very heat tolerant (they claim to have baked it in a 140 degree oven for a whole year to test it). So keep in mind that a lot of the complaints on that forum are because of the 1) problematic early battery, 2) the fact that car dealerships are often dishonest and were promising ranges over 100 miles without caveats, and 3) because of their very non-mustachian driving habits.

That said, I totally agree that buyers need to do their homework and that it's not right for everyone yet. And that caution is warranted for long commutes without charging as work.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on June 27, 2015, 11:37:15 AM
so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on June 27, 2015, 12:46:57 PM
so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...

Not being from Colorado, I'm not going to have all the info. But my understanding is that you can get a $6000 tax credit in that state. I would look around at the mynissanleaf forum for more info, or to ask someone who has actually gotten the credit in that state.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tomsang on June 29, 2015, 06:16:06 PM
so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...

Looks like the Colorado credit is up to $6,000.  http://electricridecolorado.com/get_set/my_home/ready-your-home/colorado-tax-credits
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on June 30, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
Dang... I was hoping I could move there and buy a Tesla with an 85% discount lol
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: elysianfields on July 02, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
Have you considered driving for Uber or Lyft?  Then someone would literally pay you to drive it.  ;-)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 02, 2015, 05:32:34 PM
Have you considered driving for Uber or Lyft?  Then someone would literally pay you to drive it.  ;-)

I would certainly have much lower costs than someone with an ICE. But I value my time more than what I could make giving rides.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: b4u2 on July 07, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Iowa does not appear to have an EV credit.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 07, 2015, 10:25:59 AM
Iowa does not appear to have an EV credit.

There are some great deals on 2 and 3 year old Leafs coming off of leases. They still have the battery warranty in place, and the tax credits will be priced into them. They are also overly discounted IMO because of the promise of bigger batteries on the horizon. But if you have a mustachian driving routine, the current batteries fit your needs.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: b4u2 on July 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
I started riding my bicycle to work, 2 miles one way, when it's nice and I don't have other errands to run. On the other days I use my motorcycle or my vehicle (suburban). My wife has a much longer commute and uses a 1995 Camry. She drives about 30 miles per day. Just thought this would be interesting, but without an EV incentive....
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 12:08:42 PM
Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 15, 2015, 01:55:47 PM
forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.
The quick charge standard used by Nissan is called ChaDeMo. For an idea of where the stations are, go on http://www.plugshare.com/ (or download the app) and select the ChaDeMo filter.

For stations supporting the standard port, select "EV Plug (J1772)". Most public J1772 stations can push 30 amps to support the maximum 6.6kW rate for the LEAF's internal charging hardware; occasionally they will be limited at 16 amps, which cuts the speed by nearly half.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: FLBiker on July 15, 2015, 02:02:42 PM
I'm a dummy.  I read this and got excited (we have a 1999 Ford Explorer Sport that won't last forever) so I googled FL electric vehicle incentives.  Then I remembered we don't have a state income tax.

Unsurprisingly, they don't offer a state-level refund. :)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 15, 2015, 02:13:32 PM
Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)
My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.
I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 03:17:20 PM
Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)
My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.
I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.
They did have a Volt on that CarMax website and I liked it a lot. It was much more expensive than the Leaf  and I would have to pay extra for that beyond the incentives but might be worth the compromise.  Is that a plug in kind of hybrid or the kind that self charges?  There were also some other hybrids available (Honda CR-Z was the lowest priced at $16K the rest were higher) but don't know anything about those either. Would love an EV though - especially with fuel prices climbing towards the $5/gal mark again around here.

Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.

My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.

I've found daily or weekend rentals to be about $10-20/day. And weekly unlimited mileage to be $150 or so.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: iknowiyam on July 15, 2015, 04:26:36 PM
Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)
My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.
I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.
They did have a Volt on that CarMax website and I liked it a lot. It was much more expensive than the Leaf  and I would have to pay extra for that beyond the incentives but might be worth the compromise.  Is that a plug in kind of hybrid or the kind that self charges?  There were also some other hybrids available (Honda CR-Z was the lowest priced at $16K the rest were higher) but don't know anything about those either. Would love an EV though - especially with fuel prices climbing towards the $5/gal mark again around here.

Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.

My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.

I've found daily or weekend rentals to be about $10-20/day. And weekly unlimited mileage to be $150 or so.

Just jumping in here... Volt gets 40+ on a charge and 40mpg for me, especially in the summer. I  have had it for over a year and the car has requested only 1 zero oil changes* (yes, it tells you). Great combo for going all-electric on normal work days and still being able to do long hauls. We have driven it up and down the east coast, plus smaller 4-5 hour drives.

That being said, I have not done the cost analysis. An all-electric car was out of the question at the time I purchased my (used, previously leased) Volt.

*Edit: I had the tires rotated; after talking to DH realized we have not actually had a single oil change.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 04:35:39 PM
Similarly, I get over 100 with the Leaf during the summer. The battery will degrade a bit over time, so a used one may get 15% less or something. The battery is warranted to have at least 67% of original capacity through 5 years or 60k miles.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: TheDude on July 15, 2015, 04:36:19 PM
Ive been looking around at the leafs a little lately. Prices have gotten pretty good with rumors of the new Leaf. I think the lowest I have seen one after rebates is 10380 (plus 3000 in tax). Not bad but I don't have the tax liability to use the full 7500 fed benefit this year. I most like will next year. I am hoping prices stay this good. Nissan is giving a 5k incentive which is nice.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 05:50:55 PM
Ive been looking around at the leafs a little lately. Prices have gotten pretty good with rumors of the new Leaf. I think the lowest I have seen one after rebates is 10380 (plus 3000 in tax). Not bad but I don't have the tax liability to use the full 7500 fed benefit this year. I most like will next year. I am hoping prices stay this good. Nissan is giving a 5k incentive which is nice.

Wow! They've upped it to $5k! That's great. They are trying to clear out the 2105's I guess.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Gumbo1978 on July 16, 2015, 06:16:31 AM
Wonder if its possible to do a backdoor Roth IRA conversion in order to increase your tax liability and take further advantage of the federal tax incentive ($7500).

I was surprised how quickly Leaf's lose their value.  Used low mileage 2013 Leaf (15k miles) lists for $11k in my area. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on July 16, 2015, 06:49:26 AM
I was surprised how quickly Leaf's lose their value.  Used low mileage 2013 Leaf (15k miles) lists for $11k in my area.

The lower-priced used LEAFS might be missing some important features. Here's two articles that explain:
http://ecomento.com/2015/03/19/buyers-guide-used-nissan-leaf/
and my all-time fave article:
http://insideevs.com/used-nissan-leaf-buying-guide/

I won't buy a LEAF that's older than 2015 unless it's got some of the nicer features: the heat pump, LED lights and fast charging port. It's the same car in the body and mechanicals, but the electrical components and configuration changed dramatically during the past few years...
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 16, 2015, 08:19:09 AM
Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 16, 2015, 09:36:28 AM
Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.
So if you have an AGI of around 50k after maxing 401k/IRA, you would pay less than $6,000 in federal tax, does that mean the federal tax credit will only give you back that amount?
Maybe if someone is planning on buying an electric car one year, it would make sense to do Roth that year to take better advantage of the tax credit?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 16, 2015, 10:39:00 AM
Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.
So if you have an AGI of around 50k after maxing 401k/IRA, you would pay less than $6,000 in federal tax, does that mean the federal tax credit will only give you back that amount?
Maybe if someone is planning on buying an electric car one year, it would make sense to do Roth that year to take better advantage of the tax credit?

Yes, if you were definitely going to purchase an electric car, and didn't quite have $7500 in total federal income tax liability for the year, it would make sense to prepay as much tax as possible to get you up to that level. Realizing capital gains, contributing to a Roth instead, do a traditional to Roth IRA conversion, donate less to charity in that year and more in the next, etc. Even increase your income through extra work if you can.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 17, 2015, 08:38:36 AM
Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.
The EPA figures are really pessimistic. I squeeze 45-50 out of mine on a regular basis, except in winter, virtually eliminating local burning. On my last weekend trip, I averaged 41mpg in CS mode (55+ combined with that 40mi+ headstart each way) and charged at my destination for 100% electric local driving.
Quote
My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.
Absolutely... that's the single most important statement to be made about that. The answer will vary with each driver's needs.

The EV+rental approach is totally viable for many people, and BMW actually made it an option with the non-REX version of the i3 (http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2014-bmw-i3-gas-loaner-program-to-ease-range-concerns.html). The only reason I ruled it out personally was that I valued total gas reduction above absolute cost savings, and I'm on call for disaster response when rentals might not be available due to power outages etc.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 18, 2015, 08:55:55 AM
Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 18, 2015, 11:19:08 AM
Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/
The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 18, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/
The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.
Hopefully the factory that I think Tesla is building will help with this, the Gigafactory? Megafactory? Whatever it is, it's supposed to revolutionize cheap batteries.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 18, 2015, 02:18:01 PM
Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.
Hopefully the factory that I think Tesla is building will help with this, the Gigafactory? Megafactory? Whatever it is, it's supposed to revolutionize cheap batteries.

Yes, the Gigafactory by itself is intended to produce more kWh of Li-ion batteries than the entire world does today. And Musk is planning for additional gigafactories in the future (and hopes others will build them too). Batteries are going to get much better and cheaper. They are already improving at about 8% cost and weight reduction per year now.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: hexdexorex on July 19, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
The bears works say three largest cost of lithium is the raw materials. If this is true how will scale aid cost significantly?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 19, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
Depending on which source you use, the processed raw materials cost of current battery technology is around $70/kWh. The internal costs of today's batteries is a closely guarded secret, but costs paid by large users typically range from $200-$3,000/kWh.

If you have a $100/kWh battery, you can have a 350 mile range electric economy car for about $25k once the cars are manufactured at scale.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/13/battery-costs-may-drop-100kwh/
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/energy_resources_materials/battery_technology_charges_ahead
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097446_electric-car-battery-costs-already-cheaper-than-2020-predictions-study
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: beltim on July 20, 2015, 07:54:59 PM
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 20, 2015, 08:13:54 PM
Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/
The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.
I am kind of back on the Leaf bandwagon again (looking at something like this http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11928275&AVi=2&No=0&Rp=R&D=40&zip=92683&N=4294963090+4294961839&Us=14&Q=04c6ee27-eb8c-4ace-b4fc-e9ce346291be&Ep=search:results:results page) as my incentives will cover it 100% of the cost plus the extra $2k for the EVSE. Hard to turn that down. So going to check some out tomorrow to see how they fit. Figure I can buy an inexpensive gas car for road trips if renting doesn't turn out to be practical from a private party much cheaper then from the dealers I'd have to use to get the gas or hybrid car incentives.

You don't actually need to pay $2k for the EVSE. You can buy a high quality unit for $300 that just plugs into a dryer outlet. If you don't have one of those available, you can either add one yourself (about $100 in parts) or pay an electrician to do it (maybe another $100-$300 depending on difficulty of the job). I installed my outlet myself. Note that the car you're looking at does not have the Quick Charge port (picture 36 shows there is no QC port on the left side there--just an outline where it would be if it were there). And that means the standard charger is limited to 3.6 kW (~15 miles per hour of charging time). This is just fine for charging overnight. But won't be conducive to charging quickly on the go. I've never charged anywhere besides my house, so that's not necessarily a problem. I would recommend using about $1500 of your incentives to get the S with the upgraded charging package, and then you can spend about $500 of the rest on a 6.6 kW EVSE (the QC comes with a faster standard charging too).

I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: beltim on July 20, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.

Whoops!  Yes, of course I mean 25 cents per kWh.  And yes, I know it's high, thanks to the failure of politicians to build enough capacity (see https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/09/25/national-grid-projects-percent-increase-for-winter-electricity-rates/MBl81NGxTljzr56PZCD7QK/story.html# for some information).  That's one reason solar panels are so popular here, but it's not an option for me.

It's just interesting that without solar, the cost of fuel isn't really significantly different between gas and electric here.  That's surprising to me.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 20, 2015, 08:53:34 PM
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.

Whoops!  Yes, of course I mean 25 cents per kWh.  And yes, I know it's high, thanks to the failure of politicians to build enough capacity (see https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/09/25/national-grid-projects-percent-increase-for-winter-electricity-rates/MBl81NGxTljzr56PZCD7QK/story.html# for some information).  That's one reason solar panels are so popular here, but it's not an option for me.

It's just interesting that without solar, the cost of fuel isn't really significantly different between gas and electric here.  That's surprising to me.
I would agree with forumm that Solar would be a great option if it was available, 25 cents/kwh is ridiculous. I'm pretty lucky in that I only pay 7 cents/kwh. But there are more benefits to electric cars other than saving money on gas. Electric cars are cheaper to maintain, and there is a lot less that can go wrong, really the only thing that goes out on them are the batteries, but you might be able to replace them under warranty(which varies by electric car) if they degrade under the limit by a certain time.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: beltim on July 20, 2015, 08:58:40 PM
I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.

Whoops!  Yes, of course I mean 25 cents per kWh.  And yes, I know it's high, thanks to the failure of politicians to build enough capacity (see https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/09/25/national-grid-projects-percent-increase-for-winter-electricity-rates/MBl81NGxTljzr56PZCD7QK/story.html# for some information).  That's one reason solar panels are so popular here, but it's not an option for me.

It's just interesting that without solar, the cost of fuel isn't really significantly different between gas and electric here.  That's surprising to me.
I would agree with forumm that Solar would be a great option if it was available, 25 cents/kwh is ridiculous. I'm pretty lucky in that I only pay 7 cents/kwh. But there are more benefits to electric cars other than saving money on gas. Electric cars are cheaper to maintain, and there is a lot less that can go wrong, really the only thing that goes out on them are the batteries, but you might be able to replace them under warranty(which varies by electric car) if they degrade under the limit by a certain time.

Yes, yes, I know there are other benefits.  But there's no question that for me it would be more expensive, if I even had any place to charge it!

Electric cars are great for the people they work for.  But they are far from a universal solution.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 21, 2015, 07:01:09 AM
Here in Calif gas is between $4 - $5/gal now and electricity is pretty cheap by comparison - maybe 20 cents/kWh at peak times and around 10 cents at off-peak times  - so an electric car here probably makes more sense then in some other places even without solar.

Forummm, thanks for the info about the QC port. I don't know if I'd be able to find a used Leaf with one is there is a very limited selection of them from the dealers I'd be allowed to use (have to use those dealers and can't buy from anyone else to get the incentives) but I'll keep my eye out for one with it. Most that are available are 2001 - 2013 and I'm looking at the 2013 but could go newer if available. I'm not sure but I think the extra $2K they give you for the EVSE is to both buy the plug and hire an electrician to do the work.

So the $2k isn't available to be part of the car? Oh well.

And given your desired driving, not having the QC port sounds fine. You'd be renting (or having a 2nd car) for longer trips.

An idea--what if you found a friend that had an ICE and you just borrowed it for trips when they didn't need it? That would keep your expenses low (you can still pay them for your usage) and keep another ICE off the roads. Or you could travel together. It seems like there are a lot of options for that kind of thing. Even taking the Greyhound.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on July 21, 2015, 11:55:48 AM
Forummm, thanks for the info about the QC port. I don't know if I'd be able to find a used Leaf with one is there is a very limited selection of them from the dealers I'd be allowed to use (have to use those dealers and can't buy from anyone else to get the incentives) but I'll keep my eye out for one with it. Most that are available are 2001 - 2013 and I'm looking at the 2013 but could go newer if available. I'm not sure but I think the extra $2K they give you for the EVSE is to both buy the plug and hire an electrician to do the work.

My 2 cents on the EVSE: Since the credit fully pays for it, get one.  If you were fronting the money, I don't think it would be worth it.  Here in Massachusetts a third of all electric/plug in hybrid drivers  (https://mor-ev.org/program-statistics) plan to install an EVSE when buying a new car.  I bought mine at the end of February, when daytime temps were only in the teens and I needed plenty of heat.  The pre-heat is pretty anemic on 110V, but SO LOVELY on 240V!  I have a friend-of-a-friend who is leasing his Leaf, and chose not to install the EVSE, just uses the provided cable year-round.  Getting an EVSE also means you can keep the provided cord in your trunk as a spare.  It does cut the charging time in half, which for me is from 8 hours to 4 and immaterial overnight.  If you get the higher end package on the Leaf with the 6.6 kWh charging then it drops to 2, and my husband's boss has a leaf and likes that for taking the kids to soccer/whatnot in the morning, come home for lunch and charge, out in the afternoon for swim lessons, or whatever.

I have a 2012 leaf, therefore the 3.3 kWh on-board charger, and we got the cheapest EVSE you can get, Clipper Creek LCS-20, 15 amp EV Charging Station, 22 ft cable (http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-lcs-20-level-2/).  Installation by an electrician was another $500ish, the total was under $1,000 after permits.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 21, 2015, 12:49:43 PM
Getting an EVSE also means you can keep the provided cord in your trunk as a spare.  It does cut the charging time in half, which for me is from 8 hours to 4 and immaterial overnight.  If you get the higher end package on the Leaf with the 6.6 kWh charging then it drops to 2, and my husband's boss has a leaf and likes that for taking the kids to soccer/whatnot in the morning, come home for lunch and charge, out in the afternoon for swim lessons, or whatever.

I have a 2012 leaf, therefore the 3.3 kWh on-board charger, and we got the cheapest EVSE you can get, Clipper Creek LCS-20, 15 amp EV Charging Station, 22 ft cable (http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-lcs-20-level-2/).  Installation by an electrician was another $500ish, the total was under $1,000 after permits.

Just for clarity, it takes about 4.5 hours to charge from 0% to 100% with a 6.6kW EVSE and 6.6kW upgraded Leaf. In practice, you don't run it down to 0%, so the time to fill it back up isn't as long as 4.5 hours. It adds about 30 miles of range for every 60 minutes of charging. But the last 10% of the battery goes much more slowly. The 3.6kW charging takes about 8 hours 0% to 100% (15 miles for every 60 minutes of charging). The standard household outlet charging takes about 21 hours 0% to 100% (5 miles for every 60 minutes of charging).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on July 21, 2015, 01:17:54 PM
Whoops, thank you forummm for the clarification!  My numbers were for my usual 36 mile commute, and charging to 80%.

The cheapo EVSE at 3.6 kWh would be the limiting factor to rate of charge if you get the nicer 6.6 kWh onboard charger.

At $2,000 they're willing to pay for the installation of a pretty nice one.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Matt in Akron on July 21, 2015, 01:34:06 PM
Here is the quick math on my 2013 Nissan Leaf, about 9 weeks / 3,790 mi into ownership...(please pardon my very non-mustachian 66mi r/t commute)

Old Vehicle = 2002 BMW 525i Wagon | 24.5mpg (SOLD privately for $4,500 this month, purchased in 01/2011 for $4,695)

Current Vehicle = 2013 Nissan Leaf SV | 4.83mi/kWh of measured consumption over all 3,790mi (Purchased certified-pre owned for $13,700 @ 0.0% APR)

Total Miles Traveled = 3,790.9mi (according to CarWings, the telematics system for the Leaf)

BMW Cost = 3,790.9mi / 24.5mpg = 154.7 gallons of fuel x $3/gal = $464.20 for fuel only ($0.12/mi)

Nissan Leaf Cost = 3,790.9mi / 4.83mi/kWh = 784.6 kWh electricity x $0.15/kWh = $117.69 ($0.03/mi)

So, over the course of the last 9 weeks, my savings rate is about $154/mo with the Leaf.  This assumes that all charging is done at my home at $0.15/kWh - in reality probably 15-20% of my charging is done at free public stations.  This also doesn't consider maintenance and upkeep, which was significant on the BMW even though I did most of my own work.  The Leaf is effectively maintenance free (tire rotations, annual cabin air filter, bi-annual brake fluid changes - all are DIY'able) and has a warranty for the next 7yr/100k.

After 4k miles, I love the Leaf.  It's enjoyable to drive, well equipped, and incredibly economical.  I'm excited for quick-charge infrastructure to expand into my area (NE Ohio) so we can start making some road trips in this thing!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 21, 2015, 02:52:19 PM
It's not recommended to charge Lithium batteries to 100%, 100% is probably a certain voltage that the chargers say is considered "100%" at which point it probably will no longer let you charge them. Keeping Lithium batteries in a range from 40% full to 80% full will significantly increase the life of the battery.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 21, 2015, 03:08:43 PM
Glad you're having such a good experience, Matt in Akron! I can report similar findings. I'll hopefully never buy another ICE. Electric cars are the future.

It's not recommended to charge Lithium batteries to 100%, 100% is probably a certain voltage that the chargers say is considered "100%" at which point it probably will no longer let you charge them. Keeping Lithium batteries in a range from 40% full to 80% full will significantly increase the life of the battery.

Nissan doesn't actually let you get to 100% (or 0%) of the real battery. It looks like 100% to you, but they hide some at the top and bottom of it from you just for these reasons. That said, I still personally only charge it to 100% overnight right before I use it. And then I don't charge it again until it's somewhat close to the end of the available range. My work round trip is 16 miles, so I charge it if there are less than 20ish left. Since we have 2 Leafs, we also trade off charging overnight for the cheap energy. So sometimes I'll charge it earlier if DW would need it the other night.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 21, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
If you don't care a lot about morals/ethics, and your battery is close to warranty, someone might push the limits(while not voiding the warranty), to try and bring the battery within warranty range.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: uspsfanalan on July 21, 2015, 03:38:18 PM
I too made a switch to the LEAF.

Prior car - 2005 Nissan 350Z convertible, 58,000 miles. 23.1 MPG average on premium gas. Trade value was 10,000. Assuming gas is 3.00 a gallon, it was about .13 per mile.

2013 LEAF SV, 23,000 miles. Cost 12,500 plus taxes and etc etc. Total is 13,500. The real benefit is that I have free charging at work on a 220 station and live close enough to work that I only have to charge it at home every other week.

At present gas prices my break even point is around 25,000 miles. If gas goes up to $4.00 it would be around 20k.

Ultimately, the switch wasn't fully a financial choice. I didn't really care for the Z, I thought we would take it for long road trips which didn't really happen. When we did go out of town, we tend to bring our dog, so didn't take the Z anyway. Plus I couldn't bring a bike anywhere and the top started leaking when it rained. It was time for the car to go, I'm sure someone will enjoy the car a lot more than I was.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tonysemail on July 21, 2015, 04:02:45 PM
thanks for the great info.
i'm shopping for an used leaf now, so following this thread with interest
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Matt in Akron on July 22, 2015, 07:34:21 AM
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:


Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 22, 2015, 07:59:28 AM
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!

I'm glad you researched things and got what you were looking for! For a different perspective for others, I actually differ from you a bit on all three.

I already described above why I don't think the 2013 upgrades are super important:

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.

So it doesn't matter if the battery is holding up as well, just as long as it dips below 9 bars before 5 years/60k. You can just get a free new battery under warranty. And the new batteries are improved.

We have 2 S models w/the upgraded charging package. So we get the QC ports (which we've never used) and the faster 6.6kW. The S w/charging package is cheaper than the SL or the SV. It doesn't have the navigation system, but I have a GPS and 4 phones with GPS in them so I've never needed the navigation.

If you're looking at getting a used one that only has 3.6kW charging capability, and you're only driving it around town and charging overnight at home, that's plenty fast. But it would be infeasible to use on a road trip. But even the cars with QC are very limited for road trips at this point. You aren't going cross country yet. So maybe saving a little more on the purchase price is worth trading away this flexibility--a personal decision.

If you get CPO, you're probably paying a higher sale price and the extra warranty price. The financing might be nice, and feeling safe about the warranty might be nice too. But Nissan is only selling you the warranty because they don't expect anything much to go wrong with the car. There really isn't anything to wear out or break down. Hardly any moving parts. The battery is the expensive thing, and that already has a 8/100k factory warranty (5/60k capacity warranty). And batteries are getting dramatically cheaper over time.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: uspsfanalan on July 22, 2015, 08:54:17 AM
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!

I agree about the 2013 information and battery improvements. The other two points weren't a big deal to me. I don't need a quick charge because we take my DW's Honda Fit for the road trips. As far as being certified pre-owned, I only had to pay 3,500 out of pocket in my case so it didn't make sense to finance that. I'm not interested in paying for an extended warranty, especially not financing it. For me I'd rather self insure.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on July 22, 2015, 01:15:17 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/20/2011-2012-nissan-leaf-class-action-lawsuit-settled/#slide-107938
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 22, 2015, 01:22:33 PM
Having just researched/purchased one -- my absolute "must haves" are below as a reference for you:

  • Must be 2013+.  There were some nice enhancements to the vehicle to improve real-world range (high efficiency heat pump, lighter weight, etc), and the batteries seem to be holding up better than the 2011/12s
  • Must be "SL" trim, or "SV" with the optional Quick Charge Port / LED headlights.  With EV infrastructure continuing to grow, having the quick charge port is a must have - it's optional on 2013+ SV and standard on all SL.  The SL/SV trims also get you the higher capacity 6.6kW on-board charger - which means your charging times on "Level 2" public charging stations are cut in half vs. the 3.3kW charger on 2011/12 models and 2013+ "S" trim level
  • Must be Nissan Certified Pre-Owned (CPO).  Two reasons - 1) this makes the vehicle eligible for the "CPO wrap" warranty plan, which is about $1,600 on the Leaf.  This gets you a 7yr/100k mi bumper-to-bumper warranty on the entire car, which can be financed.  2) CPO cars are eligible for NMAC financing promotions, which are usually 0.9% for up to 60mo, and sometimes as low as 0.0% APR for 60mo.

Once you're able to narrow your search to cars that meet those criteria, just look for the one that has the best combination of mileage/price.  Good luck and happy shopping!
Thanks for posting that info along with Forummms as I needed to figure out the difference between various 2013 models. The SV/SL are much more expensive then the S models and now I know why. 

But I have decided not to get a Leaf after all because I'd either have to spend several thousand $$'s a year on rentals or buy a second car for longer road trips. So, since I rarely need to drive a car around town, I will just keep my old gas guzzling smog spewing truck for now and use that for long trips and continue to ride my bike around town.  Even though it's 15 years old (I've had it for 9 years and bought it for $4000) it only has 104,000 miles on it and runs fine with lots of new things like tires, battery, fuel pump, etc... so will last me a long time and is more practical for me to camp in and bring my "toys" and gear.  Very hard for me to turn down all that basically free money in the form of incentives to buy the Leaf, but in the long run I think it will cost me more and be less useful to me. Too bad as I  think the Leafs are really a great little car. Maybe someday. Still looking into hybrids but most are too expensive even with the incentives so probably won't do that either. Guess I'll continue to keep Cali smoggy and gassy :-)!
You could look into a used plug in prius some of them are darn cheap.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on July 24, 2015, 09:11:04 AM
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tonysemail on July 24, 2015, 12:14:17 PM
I went for a test drive this week and got a price sheet for a new leaf.
the charge card promotion sounds nice, but considering my commute, I doubt I will be using it much.

A 2015 S model + QC package will cost $23.5k.
with federal and state tax credits adding up to $10k, my net cost would be $13.5k.
used leafs are selling between $9.5k-12k in my area, so I'm re-evaluating whether I should just purchase new.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 24, 2015, 01:36:39 PM
I went for a test drive this week and got a price sheet for a new leaf.
the charge card promotion sounds nice, but considering my commute, I doubt I will be using it much.

A 2015 S model + QC package will cost $23.5k.
with federal and state tax credits adding up to $10k, my net cost would be $13.5k.
used leafs are selling between $9.5k-12k in my area, so I'm re-evaluating whether I should just purchase new.

Plus 0% interest for 6 years. These are some of the reasons why I bought new. I bet you could get the price down more if you followed the method I suggest upthread. Basically, just email a bunch of dealers through their websites and ask what their best "out the door" price is for the 2015 S+QC. They will be all over the place. Take the best one.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: daverobev on July 25, 2015, 01:21:20 PM
Where are you seeing so cheap? On Nissan's site it's like $21k AFTER incentives, $30k without.

In Canada they are from $32k, less $8.5k in Ontario, plus Nissan are knocking 3.5k off the standard price. Cash purchase - for the base model - is $23k CAD.

I'm sure you could negotiate another thousand or two down, but not another 30%!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 25, 2015, 01:46:19 PM
Where are you seeing so cheap? On Nissan's site it's like $21k AFTER incentives, $30k without.

In Canada they are from $32k, less $8.5k in Ontario, plus Nissan are knocking 3.5k off the standard price. Cash purchase - for the base model - is $23k CAD.

I'm sure you could negotiate another thousand or two down, but not another 30%!

You'd have to see what's available in your area. Nissan probably does different pricing in US vs Canada. For US buyers they are offering a $5k rebate, plus 0% financing, plus the federal tax credit, plus any state credit. I believe tonysemail's quote includes the $5k rebate already.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on July 27, 2015, 04:36:24 PM
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

I havent seen any EV's stranded on the 405 or 5.  I mean no more than any other car.  That still doesnt mean it hasnt made for a miserable day for some EV owners. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 27, 2015, 05:10:34 PM
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 27, 2015, 06:51:36 PM
Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.

Yeah, I understand your situation (desired usage) is a little different. Just curious what might be available for someone. Does the CA program work for a lease? Nissan passes along the federal tax credit to the lessee.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: surething22 on July 28, 2015, 12:51:52 AM
Fascinating stuff. Just read through most of this thread and now considering a Leaf. I purchased a '13 Honda Accord Coupe and have been looking to ditch it for something a little more useful, less expensive, and better for the environment. Although with a newer car with moderately good fuel economy and income surpassing their threshold, it looks as though I wouldn't qualify for the CA plan.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 28, 2015, 08:36:27 AM
Consumer Reports recommends used Nissan Leafs.

Quote
Want a cheap, reliable car? Consider a used Nissan Leaf

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/want-cheap-reliable-car-consider-used-nissan-leaf-193000585.html
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 29, 2015, 05:42:46 PM
  Does the CA program work for a lease? Nissan passes along the federal tax credit to the lessee.
OK I just double checked and it appears they do leases for new plug in hybrids and EV - including 2015 Leafs. They are also available for Teslas, Cadillacs, BMWs, Mercedes, Lexis' - you know...poor people cars :-)! Not sure how that program works but to buy (and maybe to lease too) they give you a voucher for amount of $$ incentives you qualify for to take to the dealer. I need to decide soon as you only have 30 days once qualified to scrap your old car and get something new with the incentives. Decisions, decisions....

If interested in what vehicles you can lease you can go to www.replaceyourride.com, go replacement options, then go to advanced technology vehicles and at the bottom of the page is a link to available vehicles you can lease.

$10k off a lease? So:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$9475 NMAC credit
-$2500 CA tax credit (assuming you can get this on a lease and you have the tax liability for it or else it's refundable)
-$11k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$6k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

You could lease it for almost nothing and then buy it for almost nothing ($6k total) when the lease was up and then turn around and sell it for profit if you didn't want to keep it (but you'll love it).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on July 29, 2015, 10:23:12 PM
I'm in SoCal but if my annual income is over 90k I don't qualify for anything in the replace your ride program, correct?  I'm not sure if I'm reading the "above moderate" income eligibility correctly.

I also have a jeep Cherokee that's worth about 5 to 8k so I wouldn't really want to junk it for 1500.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: themagicman on July 30, 2015, 01:29:29 PM
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on July 30, 2015, 01:47:59 PM
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!

Cool! My co-worker got one too and loves it. It sucks that GA did away with the tax credit though. It was like the one good thing the state ever did--even if it was by accident.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: themagicman on July 30, 2015, 02:09:47 PM
I live in Georgia too and got a leaf through VPP about a year ago! I love it and I am getting paid to drive it! I have talked 3 for my neighbors and sister in law into getting one as well!

Cool! My co-worker got one too and loves it. It sucks that GA did away with the tax credit though. It was like the one good thing the state ever did--even if it was by accident.

Yeah I was hoping they kept it until June 2016 (When my lease is up, so I could get another)
Might end up making a couple more thousand on this if they subtract my lease buyout amount by 7k like they are with the older models.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: KittyCat on August 07, 2015, 04:17:31 PM
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA
Not completely scientific, but this post (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075241_how-much-range-does-your-leaf-lose-if-you-unplug-it-for-8-days) and this wiki (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery) might give you an idea about the discharge rate. I know a bit about Li+ battery care with personal electronics, but I don't know firsthand what care tips are applicable/advisable.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: KittyCat on August 07, 2015, 04:49:40 PM
Yes, Li+ batteries last longest when they are kept at a partial charge- in the past, that has been 50-75%, but advancements in Li+ battery technology may have changed that since I last read. Another maintenance tip is more frequent smaller charges is more beneficial than a single large charge- in other words, don't frequently wait until it drops to like 5% or so before charging it to 100%- though I imagine since its operation and function are crucial, I doubt that you'd want to let it drop that low too often anyway.

I brushed up on some battery tips here (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries):
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 07, 2015, 05:13:38 PM
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA

Looks like you've already seen the Nissan guidance. I've been gone for a couple weeks and didn't notice any charge depletion (which is good because I had to drive home from the airport). But if you're going to be gone for an extra long time you can leave it plugged in. Generally, it's better for the battery to let it sit about half full if it's going to be an extended time sitting unused. The 12V battery is separate and it can always be charged or jump started if it becomes depleted. It's lead acid (just like an ICE car battery) so it's not too problematic if it gets discharged (it doesn't "brick" the battery). But the 12V battery is normally charged by taking a little from the Li-ion battery. But the 12V battery doesn't get drained while it's just sitting there. If you leave it plugged in it charges from the wall.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 07, 2015, 06:22:09 PM
One more (final!) question about the Leaf - how long does the battery hold it's charge? If you let it just sit for a few weeks without being charged during that time will it lose all it's charge? Does letting it sit for a couple of months without being charged casue any harm/damage to the battery? Also, since I see that the 12V battery to use the lights. etc is solar powered, if it's parked in a garage for a certain length of time will that lose it's charge? TIA

Looks like you've already seen the Nissan guidance. I've been gone for a couple weeks and didn't notice any charge depletion (which is good because I had to drive home from the airport). But if you're going to be gone for an extra long time you can leave it plugged in. Generally, it's better for the battery to let it sit about half full if it's going to be an extended time sitting unused. The 12V battery is separate and it can always be charged or jump started if it becomes depleted. It's lead acid (just like an ICE car battery) so it's not too problematic if it gets discharged (it doesn't "brick" the battery). But the 12V battery is normally charged by taking a little from the Li-ion battery. But the 12V battery doesn't get drained while it's just sitting there. If you leave it plugged in it charges from the wall.
I'm not sure if I'd always be able to leave it plugged in if I was gone as I might end up having to put it in storage somewhere for many months if I ended up selling the house to travel full time or moved somewhere where I couldn't leave it plugged in all the time - like an condo. Can't sell it for 30 months and need to keep it registered in Calif to get the incentives so could be a problem down the road if I move or travel long term. Something to think about in my great Leaf vs. hybrid vs. ICE vs. nothing decision :-)!

I don't think you'll have a problem if you leave it for months in CA. Here are people who left theirs unplugged for months and didn't have problems:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8125

If you're going to be gone for like 6 months, it should be OK. But you could just ask a friend to plug it in for an hour one time about 3 months into your trip.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Longwaytogo on August 07, 2015, 07:08:45 PM
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.

Enjoy for those who have/get one!!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: spud1987 on August 11, 2015, 11:16:09 AM
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: spud1987 on August 11, 2015, 12:43:58 PM
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

Thanks for the link! Looks like I'm well above the income limits, but it is definitely something to consider when I'm FIRE-d.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: cerebus on August 18, 2015, 03:22:42 AM
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 18, 2015, 09:16:49 AM
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.

That's what it sounds like. I tried to clarify this upthread.

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on August 18, 2015, 09:41:02 AM
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on August 18, 2015, 10:37:03 AM
I'm thinking about going this route with a Chevy Spark. There is currently a lease deal in CA for 138/month and 0 down for 39 months. This equals about 6k over 3 years and 3 months. I think this is a better option for me over buying for a few reasons:

(1) We only plan to be in the area for 5 more years, so this lease would get us most of the way there. When we move to our FIRE destination the 80 mile range may not be sufficient (a more rural area).

(2) EVs generally have low resale value. The reason for this is because of the tax incentives (only good for new purchases) and concerns about LI battery life.

(3) The lease is a good deal and the dealer seems to be passing some of the federal credit on to the lessee

We are thinking about pairing this option with a PV system on our home. So the total cost of driving the Spark would be 138 a month including electricity. But I know that PV systems typically don't give a positive return until 5-7 years, at which point we may be out of the house.

Lots to think about. I would appreciate everyone's thoughts. Meanwhile I'll keep driving my 20 year old Nissan and hoping it doesn't break down!
Depending on where you live in Cali you may qualify for this program to get $9500 towards the purchase or lease of an EV: http://www.aqmd.gov/home/library/public-information/2015-news-archives/replaceyourridepr The lease is for new EVs but if you buy then you can get an used EV. The cost of the incentives can cover almost 100% for the cost of a used 2013 Leaf or about 90% for some other used EVs like the Spark or the Ford Focus EV. Plus they cover $2K towards a EVSE station in your house.

That link is for the SoCal but NorCal is on the program itself. There are income restrictions though so you may not qualify. I've decided not to buy a car on this program and keep my old truck for now (although I did ask for an extension so I can have some more time to look at vehicles) but I think it's a good deal for someone who has an older car they want to trade in for an EV.

So let me get this straight.... if you were in one of the income thresholds, and could trade in an older vehicle, you would qualify for the discounts of the trade-in program PLUS State PLUS Federal PLUS dealership discounts, AND get 0% financing? That could add up to over $20000 in saving on a new vehicle which is already the most cost effective way to commute. Is that correct? If so I need to give serious consideration to this.

That's what it sounds like. I tried to clarify this upthread.

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, in Calif you can write off $2500 on your state taxes if you buy a NEW Leaf. Plus get a single occupancy HOV lane sticker. Also some of the dealers in the LA metro area are giving new buyers a free 2 year charge card to use at the fast charge stations around town or at the dealer. Not sure what that's worth.
For your situation, used makes more sense
Yeah the new ones around here start in the $30K range so even with all the various incentives that's too rich for my (frugal) blood. Ditched the EV idea altogether though as it wouldn't be practical for me - or financially worthwhile even if it was basically free as I'd need a second car - but still looking at hybrids (plug in and regular ones) in case anything affordable crops up that I can use the incentives towards. Otherwise I'll keep my truck for now until it dies.

One question I had about EV though is how does it do in stop in go traffic? Especially in a hot area where you will be running the ac while stuck in traffic. I read somewhere that the mileage foes way down in those kinds of situations to something like 45 miles/charge (and that was without using the a/c if that makes a difference). Here in SoCal where traffic is a nightmare even outside of commuting times, I'd think that could be a problem.

My entire commute is stop and go (8 miles, takes 45 minutes). I get about 100 miles per charge (90 in winter, 105 in summer).

I forget what you said your incentives were under the CA program. But I think it was around $10k. So that would be:
$29k purchase price (what I paid including the dealer fee for the 2015 S w/charging package)
-$7500 federal tax credit (assuming you paid that much in tax)
-$2500 CA tax credit
-$5000 NMAC rebate
-$10k CA program (assuming new cars are eligible and the amount is correct)
=$4k for brand new electric car with full warranty and no gas to buy and almost no maintenance to do, etc.

Is that right?
The incentives for the Calif clean air thing in my income bracket are $11K for an EV or plug in hybrid  ($9500 towards a vehicle and $1500 to junk my old vehicle - you HAVE to junk your old vehicle or you can't qualify for the program) plus $2K towards the EVSE and having it installed. I wouldn't qualify for the income tax breaks as I have too low of a taxable income (i.e. pretty much in the zero tax bracket) so would have a pretty large outlay of cash to buy new even with the incentives.  Plus I'd still need to buy a second gas or hybrid car (or spend a lot on rentals over the years) whether I bought a new Leaf or a used one.  So thinking a hybrid or gas car is the way go - or just nothing and keep the truck. The incentives are lower for a regular hybrid ($6500) and high mpg gas ($4000 - $4500) plus the $1500 in all cases to junk the old truck. Any of the cars that I can choose from (from very specific dealers) can be used or new as long as they aren't over 8 years old. I'm still running the numbers and looking obsessively at everything available so you never know.

I cannot find anything about this for Northern California. I know of a very few people that might actually qualify for this, but they live in Northern CA.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on August 18, 2015, 02:06:22 PM
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I've been considering a used leaf.  I think I can literally exchange my 2007 Jeep Cherokee for a newer model/less mileage Leaf at no cost to me with the tax deductions.  I need to run the numbers but it's almost as if I can make money by doing this exchange. 

For example this is less than 10k at Carmax (notoriously higher pricing).  My Jeep is selling for around 8k on Craigslist. 

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11235340&AVi=1&No=0&Rp=R&D=50&zip=92618&sP=0-10000&ASTc=Nissan%20Leaf&Us=4&Q=d09c730d-7aa1-4356-a0c3-9bd250ad5ca7&Ep=search:results:results%20page
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: KittyCat on August 18, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
TrueCar is how I purchased my Civic. They'll also show dealers who participate through them, and they'll give you a "guarantee price" that they cannot go over, which often far lower than MSRP, usually not much higher than what the dealerships buy them for (a few hundred or so).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on August 18, 2015, 05:22:43 PM
Coupon Van - Here's the original thread someone posted about the program and it doesn't look like it includes NorCal - just central and south Cali. http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/free-cash-for-car-purchase-some-areas-of-california/msg726127/#msg726127

Thanks Spartana!  Unfortunately my peeps are North of the Golden Gate Bridge.  This sounds like a fantastic bargain for someone, but I'd think those with low incomes wouldn't qualify for the Fed/State tax credits and should totally be going for the 2-3 year old ones that are severly discounted already.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 18, 2015, 06:03:13 PM
Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I've been considering a used leaf.  I think I can literally exchange my 2007 Jeep Cherokee for a newer model/less mileage Leaf at no cost to me with the tax deductions.  I need to run the numbers but it's almost as if I can make money by doing this exchange. 

For example this is less than 10k at Carmax (notoriously higher pricing).  My Jeep is selling for around 8k on Craigslist. 

http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11235340&AVi=1&No=0&Rp=R&D=50&zip=92618&sP=0-10000&ASTc=Nissan%20Leaf&Us=4&Q=d09c730d-7aa1-4356-a0c3-9bd250ad5ca7&Ep=search:results:results%20page
Ha HA - we'll be fighting over the same Leaf! OK so I decided not to get one so you're safe.

Forummm can correct me but I think the tax incentives are only for new Leafs. So, unless you qualify for the Replace Your Ride program then you have to pay full cost for used. You might also look at the True Car site as there seem to be more realistic prices then Car Max - and give you a better "real world" cost of what your trade in would sell for than KBB.

Yes, the tax credits are for new vehicles only.

Ahhhh... this thread keeps popping up in my new replies. The leaf's look so cool and I would love one but can't take advantage of the whole tax refund and not really in a need/position for new car.
Anyone and everyone can take advantage of the full tax credit (and more) by buying a used one. It's typically priced into the used ones whether the buyer was able to take it or not (you wouldn't believe the bitching and whining on EV forums over that, but it is the consistently observed market behavior). I got my Volt one year old with 4800 miles for about 55% of the new price. LEAFs come down fast too (one more reason not to buy new). I've seen them under $10K already.

I don't think this is an argument against buying new. The real price you pay is not $29k or whatever--it's the price after all those credits are subtracted from that. In my case I actually paid $13.5k for S w/QC, and got a $28k 0% 6-year loan for that (investing the surplus). So even if my car is only worth $13.5k now, I'm still making money off it due to investing the credits. And any car depreciates, so if I could sell it for $10k after 3 years, that's about the same value drop as my old Corolla would have dropped if I'd kept it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on August 18, 2015, 11:18:22 PM
That sucks about the tax credit but it makes sense.

Are charging stations portable?  I ask becaus I'm renting and plan to move in the next 10 months which means an at home charging station would have to be moved. I don't think they are very portable. I also noticed today out apartment garage has no electric outlet. Wtf
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: CowboyAndIndian on August 19, 2015, 07:09:21 AM
For the leaf drivers, this is a nice article about the quality of the drive of the Leaf vs expensive gas based cars.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/18/why-a-nissan-leaf-or-renault-zoe-beats-a-mercedes-a180-mercedes-c180-or-bmw-320i/
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 19, 2015, 08:30:58 AM
That sucks about the tax credit but it makes sense.

Are charging stations portable?  I ask becaus I'm renting and plan to move in the next 10 months which means an at home charging station would have to be moved. I don't think they are very portable. I also noticed today out apartment garage has no electric outlet. Wtf
Not unless you have a 240v outlet (like some dryers have) in whatever new place you move to (and somewhere close enough so you can plug the charger and car into it). I think if you have that then you just plug in and that will charge you faster than a regular household outlet you can also use but takes a long long time to charge (am I right Forummm? Getting you to Walrus one question at a time :-)!)

The 120V (standard household outlet) EVSE that comes with the car is transportable. Many 240V (such as an electric range or dryer) EVSE have a plug so you can transport it. Mine has a plug and is about the size of large shoe box. There are much smaller ones that you can get as well that have plugs. There are different kinds of 240V outlets, so you can get a cheap adapter if you'll be going somewhere with a different 240V outlet. Even if you got one that was hardwired, you could add your own plug to it if you were somewhat handy just by buying a cord for an electric range and connecting the relevant wires (inside a junction box or inside the unit itself depending on the unit).

I recommend getting a portable version.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 19, 2015, 08:50:01 AM
I have 2 more questions about Leafs or EV and then I'm done...really :-)!

First, is there a way to protect your plug/cord/EVSE thingie from being stolen if you are charging at a station outside for a few hours - like at the above mentioned state park or overnight parked in front of your house but not garaged? Probably not something that would be worth stealing but I know those things are expensive.

Secondly, for people who can get the tax credits and/or other incentives, are those credits or incentives considered taxable income for that year? I know with the Replace Your Ride incentives, whatever amount you get (say the max. $9500 for an EV and an additional $2,000 for the charger) is considered taxable income for both state and fed income taxes. TIA

Yes, there is a lock switch in the car and on your keyfob that locks the EVSE into your charging port until you unlock it. I've seen some people who also add a little padlock to it and lock it to the charging port lid door via the metal bracket that hangs down.

Tax credits are not taxable income--they are just decreasing the tax you owe on the income you had. Manufacturer incentives are also not income (they are a discount on the price).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tomsang on August 19, 2015, 08:53:58 AM
I have 2 more questions about Leafs or EV and then I'm done...really :-)!

First, is there a way to protect your plug/cord/EVSE thingie from being stolen if you are charging at a station outside for a few hours - like at the above mentioned state park or overnight parked in front of your house but not garaged? Probably not something that would be worth stealing but I know those things are expensive.

Secondly, for people who can get the tax credits and/or other incentives, are those credits or incentives considered taxable income for that year? I know with the Replace Your Ride incentives, whatever amount you get (say the max. $9500 for an EV and an additional $2,000 for the charger) is considered taxable income for both state and fed income taxes. TIA

Your car locks the charger in place with a few options.  One is to release the charger when your car is fully charged.  This option is when you are using a public charger, you want others to be able to use the charger if your car is charged.  The other option is to permanently lock the charger until you unlock it with you key fob.  The third option is to leave it unlocked when you are in your garage or in a protected area.  This is just quick.  So when I use my charger in public I lock it down.  I think someone would need to destroy the charger to remove it from the car.

I am pretty sure that the federal credit is a general credit and does not get added back into income, but I would need to check on this prior to committing.  I received a lease and they just reduced the purchase price by the federal rebate.

As a side note, I actually leased my car because I was not sure if it would work as stated.  I love my car and plan on keeping it into the future.  Big fan of the Leaf if your commute is under the 80 miles round trip or if there is a charging station on the other half.   
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Poopstache on August 23, 2015, 04:56:45 PM
Very happy new owner of a 2015 Leaf S w/ QC as of Friday.

History: I had been looking at and test driving a Versa Note to replace her CR-V and decided to test drive a Leaf for the heck of it. I then came upon this thread and read waitbutwhy.com article on Tesla and it got me thinking in a new direction. For the same price or less after all incentives as a Versa we get to drive around in a Leaf instead.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 23, 2015, 07:10:27 PM
Very happy new owner of a 2015 Leaf S w/ QC as of Friday.

History: I had been looking at and test driving a Versa Note to replace her CR-V and decided to test drive a Leaf for the heck of it. I then came upon this thread and read waitbutwhy.com article on Tesla and it got me thinking in a new direction. For the same price or less after all incentives as a Versa we get to drive around in a Leaf instead.

Hey congrats! I hope you love it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on August 24, 2015, 05:58:11 AM
Hey forummm....
Can you give us an update on your own experiences with the LEAF so far? What I mean is:
- have you calculated "fuel cost" per week or per month so far?
- have you had any end-of-charge "events" with the car?
- how are the amenities and the ride quality?
- how long is your typical recharge?
- have you used any public charge points, and have they been in good condition?

(I've been trying to resist buying a LEAF, but Nissan might "get me" in 2016....)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Poopstache on August 24, 2015, 09:40:12 AM
Very happy new owner of a 2015 Leaf S w/ QC as of Friday.

History: I had been looking at and test driving a Versa Note to replace her CR-V and decided to test drive a Leaf for the heck of it. I then came upon this thread and read waitbutwhy.com article on Tesla and it got me thinking in a new direction. For the same price or less after all incentives as a Versa we get to drive around in a Leaf instead.

Hey congrats! I hope you love it.

Thanks for starting this thread about your experience with the Leaf. Thankfully I didn't have to haggle much on the price. The local dealer was pretty desperate to get rid of it I think. Took $2k off as soon as I said I was interested in the Leaf then another $6k off even though Nissan's site only mentioned $5k cash back. When your Federal gov, state gov, and dealer all give you money to drive the car you take the car! 0% on the loan so tax return will be invested instead of paying loan off right away.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Basenji on August 24, 2015, 09:28:09 PM
Read this whole awesome thread, looked up VA credits, meh. But will be thinking about EVs now seriously...thanks for this thread
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 25, 2015, 04:02:26 PM
Very happy new owner of a 2015 Leaf S w/ QC as of Friday.

History: I had been looking at and test driving a Versa Note to replace her CR-V and decided to test drive a Leaf for the heck of it. I then came upon this thread and read waitbutwhy.com article on Tesla and it got me thinking in a new direction. For the same price or less after all incentives as a Versa we get to drive around in a Leaf instead.

Hey congrats! I hope you love it.

Thanks for starting this thread about your experience with the Leaf. Thankfully I didn't have to haggle much on the price. The local dealer was pretty desperate to get rid of it I think. Took $2k off as soon as I said I was interested in the Leaf then another $6k off even though Nissan's site only mentioned $5k cash back. When your Federal gov, state gov, and dealer all give you money to drive the car you take the car! 0% on the loan so tax return will be invested instead of paying loan off right away.

Nice, I hope it's a great deal and you have a great time with it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 25, 2015, 04:07:19 PM
Hey forummm....
Can you give us an update on your own experiences with the LEAF so far? What I mean is:
- have you calculated "fuel cost" per week or per month so far?
- have you had any end-of-charge "events" with the car?
- how are the amenities and the ride quality?
- how long is your typical recharge?
- have you used any public charge points, and have they been in good condition?

(I've been trying to resist buying a LEAF, but Nissan might "get me" in 2016....)

We spend about $10/mo on electricity for the 2 cars combined. It's about 1 cent per mile and we don't drive a lot. We haven't come close to running out of electricity. I usually recharge about once per week. I like the backup camera and the ride is very smooth and quiet (no vibration and noise from an ICE). I have never charged anywhere except my garage, and I just do it overnight during off peak hours. I plug it in after getting home when the battery is too low to go out tomorrow, and the timer in the car starts the charging overnight. It's about 4.5 hours to fill it overnight using 6.6kW, or about 30 miles of range per hour of charging when I add a little during the day (happens some times if I want to add more but didn't plan for it to be overnight).
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on August 25, 2015, 05:48:29 PM
I checked with my apartment and they do not allow EV charging in the garage we have, but they are installing EV charging stations later this year. 

Having said that, if you leave your car plugged in, does it send you any key alert or anything when it is fully charged?   If a leaf takes 4.5 hours I'd imagine a few EV cars at my apartment and those spots are going to be in use a lot.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on August 25, 2015, 07:05:59 PM
I checked with my apartment and they do not allow EV charging in the garage we have, but they are installing EV charging stations later this year. 

Having said that, if you leave your car plugged in, does it send you any key alert or anything when it is fully charged?   If a leaf takes 4.5 hours I'd imagine a few EV cars at my apartment and those spots are going to be in use a lot.

If you get the SL or SV level it includes CarWings and an app that lets you see what the charging level is, get alerts when it's done charging, or start charging remotely. You can also turn on the climate control remotely. There is (was?) some issue where AT&T is going to be discontinuing the 2G network on 12/31/2016 that CarWings runs on, so I'm not sure what Nissan will do (has done?) to make the functionality keep working after that occurs.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tonysemail on September 04, 2015, 01:08:13 PM
checking back in here after owning my leaf for a little over a month...

one of the side effects of signing up for EV chargers is that I've been sent two advertisements in the past week.
If you are on the fence, then maybe one of these offers would feel compelling enough to tip you over :)

offer #1 is for free installation of EV chargers in apartment complexes and office buildings in california (while supplies last).
nrg evgo is trying to expand its footprint and offering free chargers + installation.
http://www.takechargeca.com/

offer #2 is for a free chargepoint EV charger with installation of solar panels from SunEdison.
SunEdison offers several financing plans including PPA option made popular by solarcity.
http://www.chargepoint.com/livesolar/index.html

Unfortunately, neither of the offers apply to my situation, but hopefully someone else here will find them useful.

As for my experience driving the new car, it has been fantastic!
I don't know if its simply consumerism and having a shiny new toy or not.
Perhaps the good feelings will wear off eventually, but I love driving my EV and I find myself annoyed whenever I have to drive the minivan.
I drove 680 miles the first month and my electricity bill went up $11.
The equivalent number of miles driven in my minivan would have cost around $100 in gas.

I've charged at public stations about once a week and most of the time it's worked out.
I'm especially happy that the library has a station which participates in the No Charge to Charge program (NCTC) since it's a built in stop in my weekly routine.

I will say that the plugshare app has some negative comments about Nissan dealerships which I've found to be true.
Sometimes the QC is out of service and not repaired for more than a week.
One local dealership blocks their L2 chargers using leafs to prevent the public from abusing the No Charge to Charge program.
I have no problems with them withholding the L2 chargers for their own use, but it's something to know.

I did not install a L2 charger at home.
I leave my leaf plugged in overnight once a week and it gets from 20% charge to 80% charge, which is what I'm aiming for.

Overall, I've recommended the leaf to friends and family.
It fits my usage pattern perfectly and has become my primary vehicle.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 04, 2015, 01:44:46 PM
checking back in here after owning my leaf for a little over a month...

one of the side effects of signing up for EV chargers is that I've been sent two advertisements in the past week.
If you are on the fence, then maybe one of these offers would feel compelling enough to tip you over :)

offer #1 is for free installation of EV chargers in apartment complexes and office buildings in california (while supplies last).
nrg evgo is trying to expand its footprint and offering free chargers + installation.
http://www.takechargeca.com/

offer #2 is for a free chargepoint EV charger with installation of solar panels from SunEdison.
SunEdison offers several financing plans including PPA option made popular by solarcity.
http://www.chargepoint.com/livesolar/index.html

Unfortunately, neither of the offers apply to my situation, but hopefully someone else here will find them useful.

As for my experience driving the new car, it has been fantastic!
I don't know if its simply consumerism and having a shiny new toy or not.
Perhaps the good feelings will wear off eventually, but I love driving my EV and I find myself annoyed whenever I have to drive the minivan.
I drove 680 miles the first month and my electricity bill went up $11.
The equivalent number of miles driven in my minivan would have cost around $100 in gas.

I've charged at public stations about once a week and most of the time it's worked out.
I'm especially happy that the library has a station which participates in the No Charge to Charge program (NCTC) since it's a built in stop in my weekly routine.

I will say that the plugshare app has some negative comments about Nissan dealerships which I've found to be true.
Sometimes the QC is out of service and not repaired for more than a week.
One local dealership blocks their L2 chargers using leafs to prevent the public from abusing the No Charge to Charge program.
I have no problems with them withholding the L2 chargers for their own use, but it's something to know.

I did not install a L2 charger at home.
I leave my leaf plugged in overnight once a week and it gets from 20% charge to 80% charge, which is what I'm aiming for.

Overall, I've recommended the leaf to friends and family.
It fits my usage pattern perfectly and has become my primary vehicle.

I'm glad you're loving it! I think you're starting to see why I think that virtually all new cars will be electric in the next decade or two as the battery prices drop and people start to see what driving electric is like--both the experience of it and the energy savings.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 05, 2015, 06:56:24 PM
My utility sent me a notice they are providing $250 rebates for level 2 (240V) charging stations that you can install in your house. The URL is georgiapower.com/ev for people buying during calendar 2015. I imagine some other utilities have similar programs as well.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on September 05, 2015, 08:13:58 PM
My utility sent me a notice they are providing $250 rebates for level 2 (240V) charging stations that you can install in your house. The URL is georgiapower.com/ev for people buying during calendar 2015. I imagine some other utilities have similar programs as well.

Dude, you are so freakin lucky. I live in EV hell compared to the resources you have available. I'm thinking I need to turn politically active and get some of this goodness for North Carolina.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 06, 2015, 12:44:28 PM
My utility sent me a notice they are providing $250 rebates for level 2 (240V) charging stations that you can install in your house. The URL is georgiapower.com/ev for people buying during calendar 2015. I imagine some other utilities have similar programs as well.

Dude, you are so freakin lucky. I live in EV hell compared to the resources you have available. I'm thinking I need to turn politically active and get some of this goodness for North Carolina.
I happened to buy my charging station in 2014, missing the power company's 2013 and 2015 rebates. Oops.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on September 06, 2015, 02:07:09 PM
My utility sent me a notice they are providing $250 rebates for level 2 (240V) charging stations that you can install in your house. The URL is georgiapower.com/ev for people buying during calendar 2015. I imagine some other utilities have similar programs as well.

Dude, you are so freakin lucky. I live in EV hell compared to the resources you have available. I'm thinking I need to turn politically active and get some of this goodness for North Carolina.
I happened to buy my charging station in 2014, missing the power company's 2013 and 2015 rebates. Oops.

Damb. Sorry to hear that. I got in on the fed's charging station rebate. It was 30% of what they cost...back then. I try not to think about the fact that a level 2 charger is cheaper now than when I bought mine. :-/

Delaying an EV purchase is one of the hardest frugal challenges I've had to do. I want one so bad I can't stand it. But I've got four other high efficiency projects ahead of the EV that require the funds I would spend on the EV, so I can't go there yet. (and when they are done, they will all produce cash flow I would need in order to buy the EV in the first place...)

I guess I should be happy: I've gotten the fuel consumption in the household down so low that swapping one of the hybrids out for an EV would not net us as much cash flow efficiency as the items ahead of it. (Even with the 0% money that Nissan offers...)

I don't mean to hijack the thread or navel gaze - I guess I'm putting that out there to see if anyone else has to sacrifice getting an EV NOW in order to get things done that are kinda higher priority.

Just keep posting your experiences into the thread - I need to keep learning from you-all's experiences so I can properly plan and execute....
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on September 06, 2015, 03:45:45 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/california-roads-bill-may-be-the-future-of-us-road-funding/
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 06, 2015, 04:22:20 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/california-roads-bill-may-be-the-future-of-us-road-funding/

I think a combination of gas taxes and road use charges makes sense. EV owners should pay for road maintenance too. The ideal would be a formula that charges your usage based on congestion (when/where you drive), mileage, road wear coefficient (essentially how heavy your vehicle is), and energy source (charge more for  gas). The vehicles that are hard on roads are big trucks. Fire engines just destroy roads (all that water weight). A little commuter car does almost no damage.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrMoneyMaxwell on September 11, 2015, 08:59:04 AM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/california-roads-bill-may-be-the-future-of-us-road-funding/

I think a combination of gas taxes and road use charges makes sense. EV owners should pay for road maintenance too. The ideal would be a formula that charges your usage based on congestion (when/where you drive), mileage, road wear coefficient (essentially how heavy your vehicle is), and energy source (charge more for  gas). The vehicles that are hard on roads are big trucks. Fire engines just destroy roads (all that water weight). A little commuter car does almost no damage.

When I was stationed in Japan the road tax for your car was based on the size of the vehicle. I had a huge diesel SUV so it was about $300/year. A few friends had smaller cars (weird named Nissan, the "What" or something, always gave me a laugh) And they would pay about $20/year.

States should definitely take the size/weight of a vehicle into consideration for road taxes.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 12, 2015, 07:56:43 AM
It's National Drive Electric Week. If you are interested in seeing EVs up close and talk to their owners you can see if there's an event in your area. I'll be at the Atlanta one today for a bit. Expect a lot of Leafs and a smaller number of Teslas and a handful of BMWs, Fords, etc.

https://driveelectricweek.org/index.php
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 12, 2015, 10:38:24 AM
It's National Drive Electric Week. If you are interested in seeing EVs up close and talk to their owners you can see if there's an event in your area. I'll be at the Atlanta one today for a bit. Expect a lot of Leafs and a smaller number of Teslas and a handful of BMWs, Fords, etc.

https://driveelectricweek.org/index.php

It was a good event. I talked with several Tesla owners. One guy has 108,000 miles on his and it's only 2 years old! He drives all over the country using their Supercharger stations.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tvan on September 12, 2015, 11:24:02 AM

It's National Drive Electric Week. If you are interested in seeing EVs up close and talk to their owners you can see if there's an event in your area. I'll be at the Atlanta one today for a bit. Expect a lot of Leafs and a smaller number of Teslas and a handful of BMWs, Fords, etc.

https://driveelectricweek.org/index.php

It was a good event. I talked with several Tesla owners. One guy has 108,000 miles on his and it's only 2 years old! He drives all over the country using their Supercharger stations.

Any idea what the range is on Teslas?  Must be pretty good.

I talked to a tow guy the other day and asked him about EV's. He said he wouldn't recommend a Leaf because he toes them more often than other EV's.

But that might just be because there are way more on the road. We didn't discuss it long.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: wordnerd on September 12, 2015, 11:25:44 AM

It's National Drive Electric Week. If you are interested in seeing EVs up close and talk to their owners you can see if there's an event in your area. I'll be at the Atlanta one today for a bit. Expect a lot of Leafs and a smaller number of Teslas and a handful of BMWs, Fords, etc.

https://driveelectricweek.org/index.php

It was a good event. I talked with several Tesla owners. One guy has 108,000 miles on his and it's only 2 years old! He drives all over the country using their Supercharger stations.

Any idea what the range is on Teslas?  Must be pretty good.

I talked to a tow guy the other day and asked him about EV's. He said he wouldn't recommend a Leaf because he toes them more often than other EV's.

But that might just be because there are way more on the road. We didn't discuss it long.

Leafs can't be jacked (battery on the bottom of the car), so you have to get towed for a flat tire. That may be what he's seeing.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 13, 2015, 06:16:03 AM

It's National Drive Electric Week. If you are interested in seeing EVs up close and talk to their owners you can see if there's an event in your area. I'll be at the Atlanta one today for a bit. Expect a lot of Leafs and a smaller number of Teslas and a handful of BMWs, Fords, etc.

https://driveelectricweek.org/index.php

It was a good event. I talked with several Tesla owners. One guy has 108,000 miles on his and it's only 2 years old! He drives all over the country using their Supercharger stations.

Any idea what the range is on Teslas?  Must be pretty good.

I talked to a tow guy the other day and asked him about EV's. He said he wouldn't recommend a Leaf because he toes them more often than other EV's.

But that might just be because there are way more on the road. We didn't discuss it long.
It depends on the battery. There's a 60 kWh and an 85 kWh version. I think the 60 is enough for about 175 miles and the 85 is enough for about 250 under normal driving. The 108,000 miles guy had the 60 kWh battery.

There are way more (like several times more) Leafs than any other EV besides Teslas. And Tesla (being a luxury car) runs their own towing service. Nissan provides free towing for Leafs, but it's contracted out. And Leafs do require towing to change their tire as Wordnerd says.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on September 16, 2015, 06:19:30 AM
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/new-2016-nissan-leaf-now-offers-best-in-class-107-mile-range-in-affordable-fun-to-drive-package

The 2016 SV and SL models will have a bigger battery (30kWh) for a 107 mile EPA range. The S will still have the same 24kWh battery.

Quote
The 2016 Nissan LEAF has a starting price of $26,700*** after the federal tax credit of $7,500 for the SV model and $29,290*** for LEAF SL after the federal tax credit. LEAF S models continue to be equipped with a 24 kWh battery with an EPA-estimated range of 84* miles. Starting price for 2016 Nissan LEAF S grade remains $21,510** after the federal tax incentive.
Note that the prices (MSRP) pre-subtract the $7500 federal credit, but not any state credits, and don't include negotiation and options. And I don't know whether the $5k cash back and 0% financing will still be available on the 2016's (or if it will be different for each model). I believe the 2016's are available in November.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: medinaj2160 on September 20, 2015, 05:49:42 PM
Anyone know if there is any incentives in South Carolina? the reason I ask is because if look at the Nissan website it says that they don't have any info at the moment.... :?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on September 20, 2015, 07:30:51 PM
Anyone know if there is any incentives in South Carolina? the reason I ask is because if look at the Nissan website it says that they don't have any info at the moment.... :?
http://www.pluginamerica.org/incentives
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrStash2000 on September 20, 2015, 07:40:16 PM
An electric car owner reviews a gasoline powered car

http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: medinaj2160 on September 20, 2015, 07:42:52 PM
Anyone know if there is any incentives in South Carolina? the reason I ask is because if look at the Nissan website it says that they don't have any info at the moment.... :?
http://www.pluginamerica.org/incentives

$1500...?

$7500 Federal
$5000 rebate
$1500 State

Now I need to find a Leaf S for 25-26k out the door :p
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: cerebus on September 21, 2015, 05:45:45 AM
An electric car owner reviews a gasoline powered car

http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/

Very cute.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on September 21, 2015, 06:31:55 AM
An electric car owner reviews a gasoline powered car

http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/

Very cute.

Haha. I love a good piece of satire, and that was great.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Jeremy E. on October 08, 2015, 06:28:34 PM
Nissan Leafs on craigslist near where I live for only $8,000! I'm thinking when my lease is up, I'll look for another 1 bedroom apartment that is cheap, is okay with a dog, and has a garage(currently I don't have a garage) then I can buy a leaf and save tons! I wonder, to avoid needing a garage, if I could hang an extension cord out my 2nd story window down to the parking lot? lol
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: gaja on October 10, 2015, 10:11:52 AM
I've been part of the team working to realize this project, and am very happy to see how it turned out. We did it to show that electric cars are an option everywhere. Cool to see that foreign websites are picking it up, but the movie is my favorite part.

My car is the big blue eNV200 (Evalia) in the back when we reach the top of the mountain.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100394_norwegian-electric-car-clubs-scenic-driving-video-surprise-hit#disqus_thread
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on October 10, 2015, 10:34:31 AM
I've been part of the team working to realize this project, and am very happy to see how it turned out. We did it to show that electric cars are an option everywhere. Cool to see that foreign websites are picking it up, but the movie is my favorite part.

My car is the big blue eNV200 (Evalia) in the back when we reach the top of the mountain.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100394_norwegian-electric-car-clubs-scenic-driving-video-surprise-hit#disqus_thread

gaja, I'm excitedly waiting for the eNV200 to make it to the US, it would be an ideal all-purpose vehicle.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: gaja on October 10, 2015, 01:52:24 PM
I've been part of the team working to realize this project, and am very happy to see how it turned out. We did it to show that electric cars are an option everywhere. Cool to see that foreign websites are picking it up, but the movie is my favorite part.

My car is the big blue eNV200 (Evalia) in the back when we reach the top of the mountain.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100394_norwegian-electric-car-clubs-scenic-driving-video-surprise-hit#disqus_thread

gaja, I'm excitedly waiting for the eNV200 to make it to the US, it would be an ideal all-purpose vehicle.
It is a great car, but the range is rather low. Would love to get the new 30kwh batteries. Other than that, it is both roomy and small. Easy to park and manouver.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on October 28, 2015, 11:20:02 AM
I got closer to "paying me to drive it" last night.  I discovered that both ChargePoint stations within a half mile of my house are still FREE.  I was under the impression that their free drum-up-business period had passed.

So now, for the low low price of two short walks each night I can top up my car for free.  Approximate value $1-2/day.

The hourly wage is low, but I could use the exercise anyway. :-)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on October 28, 2015, 12:27:10 PM
I'm sure the expected 48kWh+ for the next-gen LEAF will also go into the eNV200.

This just in... (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1043116_nissan-ids-concept-hints-at-next-gen-leaf-live-photos-video)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on October 28, 2015, 12:34:29 PM
I'm sure the expected 48kWh+ for the next-gen LEAF will also go into the eNV200.

This just in... (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1043116_nissan-ids-concept-hints-at-next-gen-leaf-live-photos-video)

Zeph, saw it mere moments before you posted. SO delicious!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: NeverLost on November 05, 2015, 01:41:54 PM
I am very newly interested in the EV world.  I just looked in my area and we have a Tesla supercharge station.  Can you charge any EVs at these or just Tesla?  How much does it normally cost to do this?   Sorry if this has been answered, I went back a couple pages but not all...
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: tonysemail on November 05, 2015, 01:53:12 PM
I am very newly interested in the EV world.  I just looked in my area and we have a Tesla supercharge station.  Can you charge any EVs at these or just Tesla?  How much does it normally cost to do this?   Sorry if this has been answered, I went back a couple pages but not all...

Tesla supercharge station won't work for nissan leaf.

Nissan dealerships participate in the NCTC program which offers 2 years of free charging.
Over the past 3 months, I've used this about once a week, but it can be inconvenient.
I have 3 free stations close by - library, dealership, and walgreens.
The library charger went down and was out of commission for about a month.
The dealership was blocked by dealer cars one night.
Once I drove by and there were too many leafs waiting in line, so it wasn't worth my time.
NCTC is a nice perk, but you shouldn't count on it.

if you are paying to use a public quick charger, I believe the rate is $0.59/kwh so it should be used as a last resort.
on the other hand, the L2 chargers at work cost $0.18/kwh which is only a little higher than I would pay at home.
(I am charged a flat rate at home and don't want to switch to an EV rate which is lower after midnight.)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: NeverLost on November 05, 2015, 01:53:33 PM
One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: NeverLost on November 05, 2015, 02:01:52 PM
Thanks for the response.  Our dealer is in the next town over so that wouldn't be convenient.  I have a garage so I could charge at home, I was just wondering if I had other options in town just in case. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ReluctantMillennial on November 05, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?

I investigated an EV and have decided that the next car I buy will be an EV, and one of the reviews that helped me make that decision was this.  Here's the entry that discusses the winter conditions:

http://sam-koblenski.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-year-and-half-with-nissan-leaf-part-3.html
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on November 05, 2015, 02:13:13 PM
Thanks for the response.  Our dealer is in the next town over so that wouldn't be convenient.  I have a garage so I could charge at home, I was just wondering if I had other options in town just in case.

Hey TB: I have a garage with a charger already on the wall, a Leviton L2 charger. Trying to own an electric car without a good charger at home can make it difficult to get the best use out of one. (Although I have a buddy who has no L2 charger at home, he uses the "wall plug cord" to keep his Smart ED charged up and it works great because he only drives six miles round trip to work....)

If you want to do the research to find charge points in your town, check this out:
http://www.plugshare.com/
It even shows you the charging stations that are currently in use.

Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on November 05, 2015, 02:17:49 PM
if you are paying to use a public quick charger, I believe the rate is $0.59/kwh so it should be used as a last resort.
on the other hand, the L2 chargers at work cost $0.18/kwh which is only a little higher than I would pay at home.
That varies widely from network to network, and even station to station, just FTR.
One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?
Technique matters more than technology.
I drove my Volt to rescue DW in our last winter storm. Overconfident idiots in trucks were stuck everywhere that day.

I didn't even have good tires.... lulz

I am very newly interested in the EV world.  I just looked in my area and we have a Tesla supercharge station.  Can you charge any EVs at these or just Tesla?  How much does it normally cost to do this?   Sorry if this has been answered, I went back a couple pages but not all...
I second the PlugShare recommendation. Even Tesla Motors Roadside Assistance considers it the best source of charging location info. How do I know? I have a publicly listed station, and they sent someone to me once... ahaha

All that aside, all I can say is: most people who go electric don't go back. Life is better here.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: gaja on November 05, 2015, 05:20:47 PM
One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?

Snow is no problem in an EV. although going downhill 12 degrees slope in a Tesla roadster with race track tires on sleet, is not my favorite experience. But the leaf has a low center of gravity, and handles icy hills  very well indeed.

Almost one in five of the new cars sold in Norway now are EVs. That would not happen if they couldn't handle snow. My favorite was this guy from the north, who said that an EV was the only logical choice north of the polar circle. When the temperature dipped below -40 deg C, his EV started like normal, the diesels did not.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 06, 2015, 11:00:05 AM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $18,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

Edited to correct a mistake in the intermediate number
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on November 06, 2015, 11:06:01 AM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $28,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...
Yep - the same thing happened with the 2015 Volt, once they announced the next generation with 25% more battery range, higher mpg in range-extended mode, a whole slew of other performance upgrades, and a lower MSRP.

The primary factor there is the steady decline in lithium ion cell prices (roughly 6% annually for several years running). Range anxiety will be largely gone in 5 years, and in 10 or less, EVs will undercut the price of comparable ICE vehicles.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on November 06, 2015, 11:20:55 AM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $28,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

32,100 - 14,000 = 18,100.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 06, 2015, 11:56:17 AM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $28,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

32,100 - 14,000 = 18,100.

Final number is correct but I fatfingered the intermediate difference. Editing to correct.

Editing this to say that the dealership said that their ad was in error. Not a big surprise. As I said to the woman on the phone, I am pretty satisfied with my current car but I was prepared to take advantage if they had lost their minds.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on November 06, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $28,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

32,100 - 14,000 = 18,100.

Final number is correct but I fatfingered the intermediate difference. Editing to correct.

Editing this to say that the dealership said that their ad was in error. Not a big surprise. As I said to the woman on the phone, I am pretty satisfied with my current car but I was prepared to take advantage if they had lost their minds.

"Error". Sure. But now that we have you on the phone, let me put you in a brand new Armada XL!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 06, 2015, 01:23:12 PM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $28,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

32,100 - 14,000 = 18,100.

Final number is correct but I fatfingered the intermediate difference. Editing to correct.

Editing this to say that the dealership said that their ad was in error. Not a big surprise. As I said to the woman on the phone, I am pretty satisfied with my current car but I was prepared to take advantage if they had lost their minds.

"Error". Sure. But now that we have you on the phone, let me put you in a brand new Armada XL!

To my surprise she was very respectful of my saying I wasn't interested. Of course I was polite about their snafu too.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on November 06, 2015, 01:48:08 PM
One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?

I bought mine certified pre-owned at the end of February, in Massachusetts.  They put brand new tires on it.  The greasy snow on 30 degree days was no fun on those tires.

I have already purchased snow tires for this winter. 
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: forummm on November 06, 2015, 01:58:23 PM
To my surprise she was very respectful of my saying I wasn't interested. Of course I was polite about their snafu too.

What was the real offer supposed to be?


One more question.  How does it drive in the snow?

I bought mine certified pre-owned at the end of February, in Massachusetts.  They put brand new tires on it.  The greasy snow on 30 degree days was no fun on those tires.

I have already purchased snow tires for this winter. 

I imagine you would want snow tires. The Leaf comes with special low rolling resistance tires that improve energy efficiency. I imagine you'd want something more grippy for snow time.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 07, 2015, 04:45:14 AM
To my surprise she was very respectful of my saying I wasn't interested. Of course I was polite about their snafu too.
What was the real offer supposed to be?

Here is the graphic. According to the woman I talked to the lease somehow saved you $14,000 off MSRP. But she could offer me $5,000 in "Nissan Cash" or whatever along with what the government would give me. Federal rebate of $7500 plus Pennsylvania rebate of $2000 (only available through the end of the year) plus the $5000 = $14,500 which I suspect is what they were thinking.

(http://images.webmakerx.net/Sites/Site21402/Picture/2015/November/Rothrock-Leaf-WebBanner953x324.jpg)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: reader2580 on November 08, 2015, 09:20:08 AM
I looked at Nissan Leafs briefly because older models sell for so little on the used market.  I talked to a salesperson and he basically said with a 60 mile commute and no charging at work not to do it.  I would be right at the battery capacity and maybe over with heat or air conditioning.

A former co-worker had a Chevy Volt.  He would occasionally rent a spot at a nearby parking garage to charge his Volt.  Seemed silly to spend $6 to charge as he could make his typical commute on battery only with his charge at home.  He also has a gas engine as a backup which a Leaf does not.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on November 08, 2015, 12:27:09 PM
I succumbed to temptation yesterday and went by the local Nissan dealership in a nearby town. (Only 4 miles from where I live, I could walk there if I had to.)

I wanted to get some information on the eNV200, and yeah, maybe talk about a LEAF. The salesguy who "captured" me as I walked toward the building engaged me and was all focused on getting "my information" without really doing anything or telling me anything. We chatted for about 30 minutes and I couldn't get him to tell me anything. not about the eNV200, OR the LEAF. All he was interested in was getting me to lease a LEAF for two years.

I'm sure what happened is, it's been so long since I've bought a new car from a dealership that I'd forgotten what it was like to set foot on their property, and it was painful, very painful.

Anyway, let's just say I'm CURED of my urge to just go by the dealership. I won't buy ANY car without using the "forummm method of buying" that has been discussed in this thread.

I'm a huge EV fan, and daily I wish I owned one. But I effectively simulated what would happen if I discarded my Mustachian beliefs in search of a new EV, and it was painful!
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Goldielocks on November 08, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
I looked at Nissan Leafs briefly because older models sell for so little on the used market.  I talked to a salesperson and he basically said with a 60 mile commute and no charging at work not to do it.  I would be right at the battery capacity and maybe over with heat or air conditioning.

A former co-worker had a Chevy Volt.  He would occasionally rent a spot at a nearby parking garage to charge his Volt.  Seemed silly to spend $6 to charge as he could make his typical commute on battery only with his charge at home.  He also has a gas engine as a backup which a Leaf does not.

Hmm,  a co-worker in sacramento leased a LEAF a couple of years ago.  Apparently the incentive was free parking downtown at those charging stations (he had to move it every 4 hrs or so).  the free parking fully offset his lease costs, and he drove the car for the cost of insurance and home charging / maintenance only.

I understand that the free parking deal is going away, as more people have the cars and he has to move out of the charging spot more frequently now..  but a good deal for 2 years.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on November 17, 2015, 10:44:28 PM
Looks like a new promo now for Black Friday - the $5k NMAC cash is back to move the 2015's.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrSal on November 21, 2015, 10:56:50 AM
It seems that the announcement of the 2016 Leaf makes the 2015 ones a problem for dealers. On a hunch I checked one near me. They are offering $14,000 off MSRP on their website. If that is before updates, that means they are offering a new Leaf S for $32,100 - $14,000 = $18,100. Then, take off the $7,500 federal rebate and the $2,000 Pennsylvania rebate, and it's $8600. Makes it tempting to put in power line to my parking pad...

Edited to correct a mistake in the intermediate number

I live in PA too and thats really cheap although I don't know if it would pay to me to have an EV.

I pay 50 cents per gallon of gas and I drive a Honda 2001 Civic EX which gets me 40 mpg.

I drive about 13k miles a year, which means out of pocket on gas I pay 175 dollars per YEAR on driving it. I doubt an EV would save me any money on this...maybe only on wear and tear since there are not as many parts as in a combustible engine
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: reader2580 on November 21, 2015, 11:34:10 AM
I pay 50 cents per gallon of gas and I drive a Honda 2001 Civic EX which gets me 40 mpg.

How do you get gas for 50 cents a gallon?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrSal on November 21, 2015, 11:52:05 AM
I pay 50 cents per gallon of gas and I drive a Honda 2001 Civic EX which gets me 40 mpg.

How do you get gas for 50 cents a gallon?

One of the grocery stores near me has a gas points program for every 50 dollars you spend you get 10 points which takes 10 cents off of the price of a gallon up to a 20 gallon limit per fill.

This includes the gift cards they sell in store.

I just buy a VISA gift card for 500 USD and then use it to buy another one... then use that one to buy another and so forth. I only keep 1 card at a time instead of buying multiple cards at a time. While that would save me the hassle of going thru the payment as many times, I dont want to risk of not being able to liquidate the VISA gift cards or even worse losing them. So I only have tied up 500 dollars in that gift card which is constantly being recycled.

I got this idea once I started doing manufacture spending for Credit cards. But now even while I am not manufacture spending, I keep doing this.

Why 50 cents a gallon?

Because those VISA gift cards have a fee - from 3.95 to 4.95 dollars (so in essence for 225 points I paid 225/300*12USD / 20 gallons = 0.45 USD/gal

So when I Buy 3 gift cards for example, I have 300 points, which if I redeem 225 points it deducts from the current price of 2.25 USD a gallon with a limit of 20 gallons per fill.

Since my Honda tank only gets about 11 gallons, I use two 5 gallon gas containers to fill up the rest.

:)

Which to top it off I also got 3 free turkeys for Thanksgiving at 20 lbs each as a bonus for they holiday program :D
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: sol on November 21, 2015, 12:59:46 PM
I would love to buy a leaf, but I can't make the math work out yet.

It would be a second car, which means it is an extra cost.  Even though it would save us a bunch on gas, I would still have to insure and register it and it will still have some repair costs (tires and such).  Best case scenario, if gas goes back up to $3/gallon I might save $100/month on total operating costs, but I'd have to lay out $8-10k up front to purchase the vehicle.  That's a looooong payback period.  Solar panels were a better investment.

A better alternative for us is to buy a regular old gas sipper for half of that up front cost, and then save 1/2 as much on gas, and keep the difference invested in the markets.  I just can't see locking up $10k in an asset that makes/saves $100/month but depreciates $150/month, when I can leave that $10k invested in the market and generate $100/month while preserving 100% of the up-front capital.  Just looking at the financial reasons, it doesn't make any sense.

So I'm on hold for another three years, until my oldest kid starts driving and we'll want a second vehicle for reasons unrelated to finances.  At that point it may make more sense.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: reader2580 on November 21, 2015, 01:03:58 PM
The gas rewards program at a local grocery chain is way more restrictive.  Visa/Mastercard gift cards are excluded.  10 cents discount per gallon per $100 with a maximum of $1.50 discount in a single transaction.  Any discount over $1.50 per gallon can be used the next time.  You can buy gift cards for other stores there, but as a mustachian you aren't probably going to be spending enough to make that difference on gas prices.

There is a particular chain of gas stations that the discount works at.  I wonder if this program is why this brand of station will have every pump full and the station across the street might have 1/3 of the pumps full even if the price is less.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: MrSal on November 21, 2015, 01:10:25 PM
The gas rewards program at a local grocery chain is way more restrictive.  Visa/Mastercard gift cards are excluded.  10 cents discount per gallon per $100 with a maximum of $1.50 discount in a single transaction.  Any discount over $1.50 per gallon can be used the next time.  You can buy gift cards for other stores there, but as a mustachian you aren't probably going to be spending enough to make that difference on gas prices.

There is a particular chain of gas stations that the discount works at.  I wonder if this program is why this brand of station will have every pump full and the station across the street might have 1/3 of the pumps full even if the price is less.

My grocery store gives 10 cents off per 50$ of spending .... no limit. You can redeem the full amount of the price per gallon if you have enough points. Max fuel per transaction is capped at 20 gallons though which is more than enough.

So in essence I am paying 8-9 dollars for 20 gallons of gas.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: RelaxedGal on December 01, 2015, 01:22:38 PM
If anyone is in Northern Colorado and considering a Leaf this is a pretty sweet deal:

http://insideevs.com/2015-nissan-leaf-for-10623-special-black-friday-deal/

"Thanks to $9,007 off the LEAF’s retail price through the Group-Buy, the $7,500 tax credit and the $5,000 Colorado state tax credit, the price of the 2015 LEAF could be just $10,623!"

Assuming you live in the right place, get the base trim, and qualify for the full $7,500 federal credit.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: kudy on December 02, 2015, 09:33:54 AM
If anyone is in Northern Colorado and considering a Leaf this is a pretty sweet deal:

http://insideevs.com/2015-nissan-leaf-for-10623-special-black-friday-deal/

"Thanks to $9,007 off the LEAF’s retail price through the Group-Buy, the $7,500 tax credit and the $5,000 Colorado state tax credit, the price of the 2015 LEAF could be just $10,623!"

Assuming you live in the right place, get the base trim, and qualify for the full $7,500 federal credit.

Super great deal - would be tempting if I had more of a tax liability; neither my federal or state taxes due will be as high as the credits. I doubt there are many clever ways to *increase* my tax liability ;)
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: kudy on December 02, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
Super great deal - would be tempting if I had more of a tax liability; neither my federal or state taxes due will be as high as the credits. I doubt there are many clever ways to *increase* my tax liability ;)

Apparently the CO tax credit is refundable, but I'd still be missing out on a few thousand of the federal credit.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: spud1987 on January 04, 2016, 03:38:47 PM
Just an update: earlier in this thread I pondered whether it would be worth it to buy/lease an EV. Well, I leased a Chevy Spark EV. Details are in my journal, but it is going to be cheaper for me to drive than pretty much any other option out there (including keeping my own 20 year old car and other used compact cars). My all in cost is about $2k over 3 years plus the cost of electricity (15 cents per 5 miles).

For those of you in CA, OR, and MD (the only states where the Spark EV is sold) I would seriously consider it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: earthshine on January 19, 2016, 04:27:33 PM
Interesting! Which grocery store do you use?
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on February 02, 2016, 01:05:54 PM
Just an update: earlier in this thread I pondered whether it would be worth it to buy/lease an EV. Well, I leased a Chevy Spark EV. Details are in my journal, but it is going to be cheaper for me to drive than pretty much any other option out there (including keeping my own 20 year old car and other used compact cars). My all in cost is about $2k over 3 years plus the cost of electricity (15 cents per 5 miles).

For those of you in CA, OR, and MD (the only states where the Spark EV is sold) I would seriously consider it.
I drove one here in Bama that was bought remotely and shipped from Cali by a major EV enthusiast... that was a fun car.
I drive a Volt and I feel like the cockpit feeling is much better in the Spark EV... better wheel and control interface, just overall the way it holds you really inspires confidence and enjoyment.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: spud1987 on February 02, 2016, 06:23:13 PM
Just an update: earlier in this thread I pondered whether it would be worth it to buy/lease an EV. Well, I leased a Chevy Spark EV. Details are in my journal, but it is going to be cheaper for me to drive than pretty much any other option out there (including keeping my own 20 year old car and other used compact cars). My all in cost is about $2k over 3 years plus the cost of electricity (15 cents per 5 miles).

For those of you in CA, OR, and MD (the only states where the Spark EV is sold) I would seriously consider it.
I drove one here in Bama that was bought remotely and shipped from Cali by a major EV enthusiast... that was a fun car.
I drive a Volt and I feel like the cockpit feeling is much better in the Spark EV... better wheel and control interface, just overall the way it holds you really inspires confidence and enjoyment.

It really is a blast to drive. It's very zippy.

My wife is actually looking into getting a Chevy Bolt when they are released later this year. She drives around 100-150 miles per day for work (sales) so the range would be perfect for her. After taxes the price will be 27.5k, which is more than we were planning on spending. We'll have to think about it. The good news is that she would be able to depreciate half the cost in year one since it is a business car and her employer reimburses for miles at 50 cents.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: zephyr911 on February 05, 2016, 12:03:09 PM
My wife is actually looking into getting a Chevy Bolt when they are released later this year. She drives around 100-150 miles per day for work (sales) so the range would be perfect for her. After taxes the price will be 27.5k, which is more than we were planning on spending. We'll have to think about it. The good news is that she would be able to depreciate half the cost in year one since it is a business car and her employer reimburses for miles at 50 cents.
I'm considering that too. Depends on a lot of things. Can't wait to test drive it.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: sol on February 05, 2016, 02:18:49 PM
The 2011 Nissan leaf SV is selling for under $7k around here.  That seems like a decent price for a five year old car with under 50k miles, if you can handle the range limitations.

Newer model leafs dropping in price with better range had really killed the resale value, and then gas dropped to $2/gallon so prices started falling again.  It's by far the cheapest electric car on the market right now.  I'll buy one eventually, as a second vehicle.

update: that happened (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/buying-a-nissan-leaf/) faster than I had anticipated.  I now have a second vehicle.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: Faraday on February 09, 2016, 09:07:29 PM
The 2011 Nissan leaf S is selling for under $7k around here.  That seems like a decent price for a five year old car with under 50k miles, if you can handle the range limitations.

Newer model leafs dropping in price with better range had really killed the resale value, and then gas dropped to $2/gallon so prices started falling again.  It's by far the cheapest electric car on the market right now.  I'll buy one eventually, as a second vehicle.

Excellent, excellent. I'm hoping we'll see some aftermarket batteries for the LEAF someday to give even the older ones a nice range upgrade.
Title: Re: Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it
Post by: couponvan on April 05, 2016, 10:03:10 PM
OK - MMM mentions something about buying his next car on Craigslist.  (Leaf?)

The weird thing I saw on the Denver Craigslist for Leafs was that if the car has never gotten the CO state rebate, then it is eligible still for CO's rebate even if it is used?

http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/5480502448.html

 "WE BRING OUR LEAF'S IN FROM OTHER STATES SO YOU GET THE COLORADO TAX CREDIT!!!-------- Used electric vehicles that have never been registered in Colorado are still eligible for an EV tax credit....the state will repay you 24% of the cost of the car (up to $6,000)."  This company is importing Leafs to Colorado....and selling them high!

To me, it seems like an extra smart mustachian CO resident with extra time on their hands would go to the PNW and buy a much more affordable Leaf like Sol's for $8K...and take a smaller tax credit ($2K) to make the car only $6K.

MMM, who has a legitimate reason to DRIVE to the PNW for Camp Mustache, could do so in a rented car that would accommodate a car towing trailer.  He could then haul that cheaper car back to Longmont with him for no extra costs (since the Camp Mustache would be business expenses no matter which way he goes there).