Nissan Leaf--almost paying me to drive it

[TheDude]

I hate this thread every time I see it just gets me all worked up again. I really want a leaf its just seems like such a big investment. I think I would be more likely to pull the trigger if the the sales tax/registration didn't cost $2500. Here in Colorado we have pretty could incentives (about 5100) so I could get the cost down but we dont get any incentives like the cheap electricity. Forummm are they scaling back on that benefit too?

[forummm]

I hate this thread every time I see it just gets me all worked up again. I really want a leaf its just seems like such a big investment. I think I would be more likely to pull the trigger if the the sales tax/registration didn't cost $2500. Here in Colorado we have pretty could incentives (about 5100) so I could get the cost down but we dont get any incentives like the cheap electricity. Forummm are they scaling back on that benefit too?

Colorado is a great place to buy a Leaf. You'd get a slightly better deal than I did. For me, it was cheaper to buy a brand new Leaf, all costs considered, than to keep my 5-year old Corolla. And since I was able to invest all the sales proceeds for my old car and pocket the tax returns while slowly paying off a 0% interest loan, I'm coming out even further ahead. I've made probably over $5k just on investing the money for the 2 cars.

My utility still has great electric vehicle rate plans. Does yours not have any time of use rate?

[Longwaytogo]

Ok, so I'm super dense and I apologize if these are dumb questions or already been answered-

1.Is the leaf available for the maximum $7,500 credit. Looks like 2500 per car + more for the battery size? Looks like/I assume it meets the full amount?

2. We are a single income family right now, so we don't pay anywhere near $7,500 in fed taxes right now. Can this be phased over multiple years?

3. Same question for MD state tax credit ? (looks like 3K)

4. I don't see the $3500 credit and/or 0% on Nissan website? They still have that or was that a 2014 thing.

Thanks! These look sweet but we are in a debt emergency so it really would have to "pay me to drive it". My wife's commute is only 13 miles so we don't use a ton of gas. But a lot of our weekend socialization stuff is 40-50 mile round trips.

[forummm]

Ok, so I'm super dense and I apologize if these are dumb questions or already been answered-

1.Is the leaf available for the maximum $7,500 credit. Looks like 2500 per car + more for the battery size? Looks like/I assume it meets the full amount?

2. We are a single income family right now, so we don't pay anywhere near $7,500 in fed taxes right now. Can this be phased over multiple years?

3. Same question for MD state tax credit ? (looks like 3K)

4. I don't see the $3500 credit and/or 0% on Nissan website? They still have that or was that a 2014 thing.

Thanks! These look sweet but we are in a debt emergency so it really would have to "pay me to drive it". My wife's commute is only 13 miles so we don't use a ton of gas. But a lot of our weekend socialization stuff is 40-50 mile round trips.

1) Yes, the full $7500 federal, plus whatever your state adds on top of that.
2) No, the federal credit is for one tax year only. If you lease you can take advantage of the credit through Nissan. Nissan gets the credit and discounts the lease price about that much. For example on an S you can get $8750. But you don't get the $3500 rebate on top of that because that's for purchasing only. If you buy at the end of the lease, your purchase price should be a lot lower due to the credit. You would need to shop around (as mentioned in earlier posts) to get the best deal.
3) I have no idea about Maryland. Especially for a lease if you go that route.
4) They've had the same offer every month for a year or so. A few months the financing was only for up to 3 years. http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2015/car-incentives.html

[Longwaytogo]

Ok, thanks for reply!

So looks like we only paid about $2500 in fed taxes so that would be leaving 5K on table, though this year we will probably be $1000-$1200 more with a little higher income.

We did pay $3566 to MD (WTF are state taxes often higher than feds? I guess the 2K child tax credit made it that way) so we could get the whole $3K state credit.

Depending on how much our trade in was worth I'm guessing the payment to be in the $400 range. We would maybe only save $100-$150 on gas (especially at the $2.50 we have been paying; though I'm sure it will go up at some point). And as others have mentioned our insurance would go way up since we currently only pay liability and would need collision/comp with the loan.

Still intriguing, but looks like it will not work for us at this time. Thanks forummm; looks like it's really working out for you guys!

[CowboyAndIndian]

First of all, thanks forummm. Great information.

I was wondering what I could get it for. Since my wife works in a company which is part of the VPP, I also get that.
This is what I think I will get (numbers for MSRP, Invoice, VPP etc from Nissan VPP site)

MSRP                  $29,010
Dealer Invoice   $27,486
VPP Discount   $1,000
Fed Tax Credit         $7,500
NJ Tax Credit           $4,000
Nissan Cash             $3,500
(No NJ Sales tax on EV)

Total Cost $11,486  $15486


Wow! Good, but not great.

Edit: Really bummed that the NJ credit is not available. ( As per the Nissan site ,but still shows up on the other one).

[CowboyAndIndian]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

[MrStash2000]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

The quick charge is an option that is pretty much on ALL 2015s. It is the charging port that is found at most public charging stations.

I traded in my very unmustashian 2011 Mustashian Convertable for a 2015 Leaf. No regrets. I love the car.

[forummm]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.

[CowboyAndIndian]

The quick charge is an option that is pretty much on ALL 2015s. It is the charging port that is found at most public charging stations.

I traded in my very unmustashian 2011 Mustashian Convertable for a 2015 Leaf. No regrets. I love the car.

Thanks clarkevii.

I am now jonesing for a Leaf ;-)

[CowboyAndIndian]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.

Thanks forummm, I need to explore the lease options.

[gaja]

Interesting to see that the EV insentives in the US are so good. Here we get:

-Excemption from the normal (very high) car sale taxes
-Free toll road passes
-Free ferries
-A decent charging infrastructure, many places offer free charging (http://ladestasjoner.no/ [remove all ticks from the boxes, click on the blue ^ on the right side below the map, and then click on the middle symbol to see the map])
-Free parking
-Lower road tax

In some areas, almost 1/4 of the sale of new cars are EVs now. This means that "normal" people are also driving electric, not just the environmentalists and enthusiasts. And the problems are less than what we expected. Very few have experienced running out of power. Winters are not a big problem. Speed chargers solve most of the range issue. No grids have collapsed yet.

After a car accident, I exchanged the (now totalled) leaf for an e-NV200. I like it, but it is a van. The big plus is the 6.6kW charger.

[forummm]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

Yes, I got the S model with the charging package (QC + 6.6kw). With those options I was at $13k, but GA has a $5k tax credit. I do not qualify for VPP. VPP can make a lease deal really attractive. You might look into that too. You could just buy at the end of the lease period. Sometimes you can negotiate up to $5k off the residual price. Your VPP quote looked pretty good too.

Thanks forummm, I need to explore the lease options.

Rereading my last post, I should clarify: As your lease is about to expire, you could then negotiate to purchase for below your residual price on the contract. So you can use VPP to get a good deal up front (and NMAC also provides over $8k off the purchase price since you can't get the federal tax credit for a lease). And then see if you can negotiate that good price even lower in a couple years when your lease is running out. I've seen other people say that NMAC would cut $4k or $5k off the residual price as their lease was expiring. I don't know if that's because they overpaid upfront, or what.

[ender]

This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.

[MrStash2000]

This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.

Ideal commute for a leaf is 50 miles or LESS. This car only works in certain circumstances. If it works for you I recommend it.

[forummm]

This thread has me intrigued, but seeing as Iowa has no incentives... doesn't seem like the math will ever work out vs my 30mpg $3.5k value daily driver :)

I do drive about 70 miles a day roundtrip to work (though I have nowhere to put a charging station in my apartment. ha) so it'd be about perfect to not pay much in gas. But alas.

Ideal commute for a leaf is 50 miles or LESS. This car only works in certain circumstances. If it works for you I recommend it.

50 miles is pretty conservative. But if you blast the heater and drive fast, and the battery is 5 years old, it could be the right number. If you can charge at work you can up that figure. I get about 100-110 miles per charge consistently in the summer. But I drive efficiently and don't use the A/C. A friend has a 90 mile RT commute and drives 85 on the freeway. He can charge at work though.

[MrStash2000]

50 miles is conservative but I do not know where the OPs climate. Check out the mynissanleaf forums. They have LOTS of charts on range based off of speed and weather. The Leaf is a BOSS vehicle.... But do your homework. If it works for you go for it.

[forummm]

50 miles is conservative but I do not know where the OPs climate. Check out the mynissanleaf forums. They have LOTS of charts on range based off of speed and weather. The Leaf is a BOSS vehicle.... But do your homework. If it works for you go for it.

Yes, the mynissanleaf forum is a good resource. A lot of the people there got the original 2011, 2012, and 2013 models which had a different battery that could not stand up to the heat well and deteriorated quickly. For those batteries that did deteriorate quickly, Nissan is replacing them with their new model that is supposed to be very heat tolerant (they claim to have baked it in a 140 degree oven for a whole year to test it). So keep in mind that a lot of the complaints on that forum are because of the 1) problematic early battery, 2) the fact that car dealerships are often dishonest and were promising ranges over 100 miles without caveats, and 3) because of their very non-mustachian driving habits.

That said, I totally agree that buyers need to do their homework and that it's not right for everyone yet. And that caution is warranted for long commutes without charging as work.

[Jeremy E.]

so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...

[forummm]

so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...

Not being from Colorado, I'm not going to have all the info. But my understanding is that you can get a $6000 tax credit in that state. I would look around at the mynissanleaf forum for more info, or to ask someone who has actually gotten the credit in that state.

[tomsang]

so I looked at the following website
http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-car-benefits-by-state.php

and found the following for Colorado
Colorado offers a tax credit on low and zero emission vehicles of up to 85% of the purchase price of the vehicle in the year the vehicle was purchased.

How does this work? I'm tempted to move to Colorado for a few years...

Looks like the Colorado credit is up to $6,000.  http://electricridecolorado.com/get_set/my_home/ready-your-home/colorado-tax-credits

[Jeremy E.]

Dang... I was hoping I could move there and buy a Tesla with an 85% discount lol

[elysianfields]

Have you considered driving for Uber or Lyft?  Then someone would literally pay you to drive it.  ;-)

[forummm]

Have you considered driving for Uber or Lyft?  Then someone would literally pay you to drive it.  ;-)

I would certainly have much lower costs than someone with an ICE. But I value my time more than what I could make giving rides.

[b4u2]

Iowa does not appear to have an EV credit.

[forummm]

Iowa does not appear to have an EV credit.

There are some great deals on 2 and 3 year old Leafs coming off of leases. They still have the battery warranty in place, and the tax credits will be priced into them. They are also overly discounted IMO because of the promise of bigger batteries on the horizon. But if you have a mustachian driving routine, the current batteries fit your needs.

[b4u2]

I started riding my bicycle to work, 2 miles one way, when it's nice and I don't have other errands to run. On the other days I use my motorcycle or my vehicle (suburban). My wife has a much longer commute and uses a 1995 Camry. She drives about 30 miles per day. Just thought this would be interesting, but without an EV incentive....

[forummm]

Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)

[zephyr911]

forummm, could you please specify what options you got. I am assuming, you got the S model.

What is the quick charge port? Can't find any information on the web site.

The quick charge standard used by Nissan is called ChaDeMo. For an idea of where the stations are, go on http://www.plugshare.com/ (or download the app) and select the ChaDeMo filter.

For stations supporting the standard port, select "EV Plug (J1772)". Most public J1772 stations can push 30 amps to support the maximum 6.6kW rate for the LEAF's internal charging hardware; occasionally they will be limited at 16 amps, which cuts the speed by nearly half.

[FLBiker]

I'm a dummy.  I read this and got excited (we have a 1999 Ford Explorer Sport that won't last forever) so I googled FL electric vehicle incentives.  Then I remembered we don't have a state income tax.

Unsurprisingly, they don't offer a state-level refund. :)

[zephyr911]

Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)

My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.

I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.

[forummm]

Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)

My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.

I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.

They did have a Volt on that CarMax website and I liked it a lot. It was much more expensive than the Leaf  and I would have to pay extra for that beyond the incentives but might be worth the compromise.  Is that a plug in kind of hybrid or the kind that self charges?  There were also some other hybrids available (Honda CR-Z was the lowest priced at $16K the rest were higher) but don't know anything about those either. Would love an EV though - especially with fuel prices climbing towards the $5/gal mark again around here.

Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.

My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.

I've found daily or weekend rentals to be about $10-20/day. And weekly unlimited mileage to be $150 or so.

[iknowiyam]

Spartana, as you can probably see, we have 2 Leafs and no ICE. We haven't had a need to rent a car yet. But given our infrequency of longer distance travel, it would still be cheaper for us to own the Leafs and rent one. You with all your free time may have different usage patterns though. :)

My daily driving around town when I can't bike is pretty minimal so an electric car would be fine for that - with occasionally renting cars for longer trips. I seem to pay around $400 for a month rental all inclusive with unlimited miles (e.g. last month rented a Mazda 5 mini van for a month for $425 and could even sleep in it!) so could do that a couple of times a year. But I do like to occasionally drive more than 100 miles one-way to go up to the local mountains or down to San Diego, etc... and in that case an EV wouldn't work so have to think about how to do that if I only have an EV.

I have to road trip 1-2x/mo for business and occasionally have long days around town too, so I went with a Volt (which are also getting ridiculously cheap coming off 3-year leases). Probably the last vehicle with an ICE that I'll ever buy. I <3 electric driving.

They did have a Volt on that CarMax website and I liked it a lot. It was much more expensive than the Leaf  and I would have to pay extra for that beyond the incentives but might be worth the compromise.  Is that a plug in kind of hybrid or the kind that self charges?  There were also some other hybrids available (Honda CR-Z was the lowest priced at $16K the rest were higher) but don't know anything about those either. Would love an EV though - especially with fuel prices climbing towards the $5/gal mark again around here.

Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.

My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.

I've found daily or weekend rentals to be about $10-20/day. And weekly unlimited mileage to be $150 or so.

Just jumping in here... Volt gets 40+ on a charge and 40mpg for me, especially in the summer. I  have had it for over a year and the car has requested only 1 zero oil changes* (yes, it tells you). Great combo for going all-electric on normal work days and still being able to do long hauls. We have driven it up and down the east coast, plus smaller 4-5 hour drives.

That being said, I have not done the cost analysis. An all-electric car was out of the question at the time I purchased my (used, previously leased) Volt.

*Edit: I had the tires rotated; after talking to DH realized we have not actually had a single oil change.

[forummm]

Similarly, I get over 100 with the Leaf during the summer. The battery will degrade a bit over time, so a used one may get 15% less or something. The battery is warranted to have at least 67% of original capacity through 5 years or 60k miles.

[TheDude]

Ive been looking around at the leafs a little lately. Prices have gotten pretty good with rumors of the new Leaf. I think the lowest I have seen one after rebates is 10380 (plus 3000 in tax). Not bad but I don't have the tax liability to use the full 7500 fed benefit this year. I most like will next year. I am hoping prices stay this good. Nissan is giving a 5k incentive which is nice.

[forummm]

Ive been looking around at the leafs a little lately. Prices have gotten pretty good with rumors of the new Leaf. I think the lowest I have seen one after rebates is 10380 (plus 3000 in tax). Not bad but I don't have the tax liability to use the full 7500 fed benefit this year. I most like will next year. I am hoping prices stay this good. Nissan is giving a 5k incentive which is nice.

Wow! They've upped it to $5k! That's great. They are trying to clear out the 2105's I guess.

[Gumbo1978]

Wonder if its possible to do a backdoor Roth IRA conversion in order to increase your tax liability and take further advantage of the federal tax incentive ($7500).

I was surprised how quickly Leaf's lose their value.  Used low mileage 2013 Leaf (15k miles) lists for $11k in my area. 

[Faraday]

I was surprised how quickly Leaf's lose their value.  Used low mileage 2013 Leaf (15k miles) lists for $11k in my area.

The lower-priced used LEAFS might be missing some important features. Here's two articles that explain:
http://ecomento.com/2015/03/19/buyers-guide-used-nissan-leaf/
and my all-time fave article:
http://insideevs.com/used-nissan-leaf-buying-guide/

I won't buy a LEAF that's older than 2015 unless it's got some of the nicer features: the heat pump, LED lights and fast charging port. It's the same car in the body and mechanicals, but the electrical components and configuration changed dramatically during the past few years...

[forummm]

Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.

[Jeremy E.]

Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.

So if you have an AGI of around 50k after maxing 401k/IRA, you would pay less than $6,000 in federal tax, does that mean the federal tax credit will only give you back that amount?
Maybe if someone is planning on buying an electric car one year, it would make sense to do Roth that year to take better advantage of the tax credit?

[forummm]

Leafs "depreciate" quickly because of $7500 in the federal tax credit, $2500-$6000 in state tax credits, and $5000 cash back from Nissan. It's not that the car's price is depreciating--it's that the person never really "paid" the MSRP to begin with. I only actually paid $13,500 for my 2015 S w/QC. I could still sell it for more than that. So, unlike most new cars, it actually hasn't really depreciated yet.

It's great for used Leaf buyers that have incomes too low to get the full benefit of the tax credits.

I think the LED lights are not that important. The headlights are powered by the 12v battery (not the traction battery) so they really don't affect range in a day. And the amount of energy the non-LED headlights use is on the order of 1 percent of the traction battery pack anyway, so it's really not decreasing your range to use them.

The Quick Charge port is nice, but we've actually never used it in either of the cars yet. I decided it was worth it to get the upgrade in case we'd use it for road trips in the future. Quick charge stations will become more prevalent as the cars become more popular.

The heat pump has also not been important for us. I actually never used the heater at all in the winter. I just wore a coat and gloves (occasionally a hat too) and used the steering wheel heater and seat heater (both powered from the 12v battery and do not affect range). It was comfortable.

I would have no hesitation about getting a used Leaf without those features. Just be aware of how many bars of capacity have been lost. The warranty on capacity still applies to used cars if they lose more than 3 of the 12 bars.

So if you have an AGI of around 50k after maxing 401k/IRA, you would pay less than $6,000 in federal tax, does that mean the federal tax credit will only give you back that amount?
Maybe if someone is planning on buying an electric car one year, it would make sense to do Roth that year to take better advantage of the tax credit?

Yes, if you were definitely going to purchase an electric car, and didn't quite have $7500 in total federal income tax liability for the year, it would make sense to prepay as much tax as possible to get you up to that level. Realizing capital gains, contributing to a Roth instead, do a traditional to Roth IRA conversion, donate less to charity in that year and more in the next, etc. Even increase your income through extra work if you can.

[zephyr911]

Volt is a plug-in hybrid. So you'll still have to get oil changes and deal with normal IC engine stuff. And it gets something like 30 miles electric (vs EPA 84 miles for the Leaf), so you might buy more gas even for local travel depending on where you're going.

The EPA figures are really pessimistic. I squeeze 45-50 out of mine on a regular basis, except in winter, virtually eliminating local burning. On my last weekend trip, I averaged 41mpg in CS mode (55+ combined with that 40mi+ headstart each way) and charged at my destination for 100% electric local driving.

My guess is the difference in cost and gas and maintenance would be more than the rental car cost. But you can do the math for your own usage patterns.

Absolutely... that's the single most important statement to be made about that. The answer will vary with each driver's needs.

The EV+rental approach is totally viable for many people, and BMW actually made it an option with the non-REX version of the i3. The only reason I ruled it out personally was that I valued total gas reduction above absolute cost savings, and I'm on call for disaster response when rentals might not be available due to power outages etc.

[forummm]

Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/

[forummm]

Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/

The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.

[Jeremy E.]

Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/

The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.

Hopefully the factory that I think Tesla is building will help with this, the Gigafactory? Megafactory? Whatever it is, it's supposed to revolutionize cheap batteries.

[forummm]

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.

Hopefully the factory that I think Tesla is building will help with this, the Gigafactory? Megafactory? Whatever it is, it's supposed to revolutionize cheap batteries.

Yes, the Gigafactory by itself is intended to produce more kWh of Li-ion batteries than the entire world does today. And Musk is planning for additional gigafactories in the future (and hopes others will build them too). Batteries are going to get much better and cheaper. They are already improving at about 8% cost and weight reduction per year now.

[hexdexorex]

The bears works say three largest cost of lithium is the raw materials. If this is true how will scale aid cost significantly?

[forummm]

Depending on which source you use, the processed raw materials cost of current battery technology is around $70/kWh. The internal costs of today's batteries is a closely guarded secret, but costs paid by large users typically range from $200-$3,000/kWh.

If you have a $100/kWh battery, you can have a 350 mile range electric economy car for about $25k once the cars are manufactured at scale.

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/13/battery-costs-may-drop-100kwh/
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/energy_resources_materials/battery_technology_charges_ahead
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097446_electric-car-battery-costs-already-cheaper-than-2020-predictions-study

[beltim]

I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

[forummm]

Now if they had the super fast charging version (the 30 minute deal that some electric cars (Teslas?) have) and there were more stations available I'd be on that for sure.

The Quick Charge stations do exist for the Leaf. They fill the battery from around empty to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. You can see whether there are enough of them in your area to suit your needs. The slower 6.6kW charging (what I have in my garage) adds about 30 miles of range per hour of charging.
http://www.plugshare.com/
http://www.chargepoint.com/

The problem for me is more if I want to travel cross country. Not sure I'd get too far in a Leaf if there aren't fast charging stations every 100 miles or less :-)! But it's good to know that they ARE available if I did decide to get one for around town (but still get a second car for travelling as I go too long to make renting affordable. My sister's work has charging stations for electric car and I thought of getting it to just let her use it (she also has an old truck), but she only lives a mile from her work, can walk or bike, and is FIREing in a few months anyways.

Yeah, if you want to go on a lot of long car trips, I wouldn't use a Leaf for that. Hopefully the cars in a couple years will be flying off the shelves with the bigger batteries and an affordable price. I think most new cars sold will be electric within the next 10-15 years. Not quite there yet.

I am kind of back on the Leaf bandwagon again (looking at something like this http://www.carmax.com/enus/view-car/default.html?id=11928275&AVi=2&No=0&Rp=R&D=40&zip=92683&N=4294963090+4294961839&Us=14&Q=04c6ee27-eb8c-4ace-b4fc-e9ce346291be&Ep=search:results:results page) as my incentives will cover it 100% of the cost plus the extra $2k for the EVSE. Hard to turn that down. So going to check some out tomorrow to see how they fit. Figure I can buy an inexpensive gas car for road trips if renting doesn't turn out to be practical from a private party much cheaper then from the dealers I'd have to use to get the gas or hybrid car incentives.

You don't actually need to pay $2k for the EVSE. You can buy a high quality unit for $300 that just plugs into a dryer outlet. If you don't have one of those available, you can either add one yourself (about $100 in parts) or pay an electrician to do it (maybe another $100-$300 depending on difficulty of the job). I installed my outlet myself. Note that the car you're looking at does not have the Quick Charge port (picture 36 shows there is no QC port on the left side there--just an outline where it would be if it were there). And that means the standard charger is limited to 3.6 kW (~15 miles per hour of charging time). This is just fine for charging overnight. But won't be conducive to charging quickly on the go. I've never charged anywhere besides my house, so that's not necessarily a problem. I would recommend using about $1500 of your incentives to get the S with the upgraded charging package, and then you can spend about $500 of the rest on a 6.6 kW EVSE (the QC comes with a faster standard charging too).

I've never lived anywhere where I could charge an electric vehicle at home, so for me this is a purely academic exercise for me, but I was trying to figure out the cost per mile for a Leaf.  Sources on the internet tell me it takes about 30 kWh per 100 miles.  I pay about 25 cents per mile for electricity (mostly thanks to poor planning by politicians), so that works out to $7.50 per 100 miles or 7.5 cents per mile.

In comparison, a gallon of gas is about $2.75 here.  For a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, that's about 9.2 cents per mile.

Do those numbers sound right?

Do you mean 25 cents per kWh of electricity? That's incredibly high. You should get solar panels (if possible). You'll save a bundle. Your utility may also have a time of use rate plan that would cost much less at night, so the rate could drop. My peak rate is about 30 cents (including all fees/taxes) but 5 cents at night and 10 cents during non-peak day times. For my driving habits, it costs about 1.2 cents per mile to charge at night. So your math is about right.