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General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 12:06:02 PM

Title: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 12:06:02 PM
I've FIRE'd in my mid twenties and found some interesting hacks to cover practically all of my expenses. This allows my portfolio to grow without ever being drawn down.

First, this will only work if you have children. The United States government does not care about childless people. I have two daughters and plan to have as many children as possible.

Here's the breakdown:

1. Eearned Income Tax Credit

The earned income tax credit is totally refundable. I have an agreement with a family member who runs a business to have a "job" without actually ever working. I've calculated the sweet spot to be right above $13,000 per year. Any lower than that and it doesn't work. I pay the 12.5% FICA taxes very happily because my tax return will be much much greater.

Side note: The FICA taxes aren't a total waste either. The less you pay into social security, the better of an investment it is. By FIRE'ing at such a young age, I would miss out on Social Security. With this method I will secure the 10 year work credit minimum to qualify for Social Security.

2. Child Tax Credit

The Child Tax Credit is refundable up to $1400 per child. Without any earned income you can't get this either. It goes hand in hand with the EITC.

3. SNAP/Food Stamps

The Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program does not look at assets in 34 states. They only look at income. Being very low income at $13,000 per year, we qualify for the maximum SNAP benefit. At around $600 per month, we eat like kings.

4. Medicaid

Medicaid also only looks at income, not assets. We are all healthy and don't use it, but it's nice to have.

-----------------------

Isn't it wonderful? The tax return I get is enough to pay my mortgage and utilities. SNAP covers food. We do live very frugally. We don't own a car and walk and bike to everything we need to do.

You can debate the ethics of taking advantage of these programs. I believe I have a moral obligation to do everything I can to build wealth for my kids. The U.S. tax system does require a little bit of gaming compared to Candada for example, but it is totally doable. Let me know what you think...
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 30, 2020, 12:23:22 PM
One argument you can make is that you're getting your tax money back.

Regarding the EITC, people who conspicuously fall into the sweet spot often end up under an IRS examination/audit. It might be revealed that you cannot get it because of your interest or dividend income. You should look that up.

If you fuck up the IRS issue when (not if) it comes, by perhaps just missing it in the mail one time, and ignoring it another, you can: (A) owe the money, plus penalty and interest, and (B) be banned from being able to receive it in the future.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bbqbonelesswing on December 30, 2020, 12:28:28 PM
Let me know what you think...

I think you should be ashamed of yourself for being such a leech on society.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 12:38:36 PM
One argument you can make is that you're getting your tax money back.

Regarding the EITC, people who conspicuously fall into the sweet spot often end up under an IRS examination/audit. It might be revealed that you cannot get it because of your interest or dividend income. You should look that up.

If you fuck up the IRS issue when (not if) it comes, by perhaps just missing it in the mail one time, and ignoring it another, you can: (A) owe the money, plus penalty and interest, and (B) be banned from being able to receive it in the future.

Yes you are right Chris. I have my invesments set up so that I don't go over $3500 in dividends, which would disqualify me. Another option is to slowly convert everything into an IRA so that the dividends don't count. That's another advantage to having a little W2 income, being able to fund an IRA.

I don't fear an audit because I'm doing everything by the book.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Spiffy on December 30, 2020, 03:18:15 PM
I think you are not actually do this, but if you are, then you are a jerk.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: NotJen on December 30, 2020, 03:39:49 PM
I don't fear an audit because I'm doing everything by the book.

How can this be true if you have a fake job?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 03:49:38 PM
I don't fear an audit because I'm doing everything by the book.

How can this be true if you have a fake job?

It's not a "fake" job. It's legally a very real job, I just don't actually do any work. I am on the company payroll and pay all of the normal payroll taxes. There is no difference between me and the other employees. The government doesn't care if you are actually doing any real "work". In fact if someone were to report this the IRS/government would have no problem with it. They are very happy if people/busineses want to manufacture "jobs" and willingly pay into Social Security.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 04:03:45 PM
I don't fear an audit because I'm doing everything by the book.

How can this be true if you have a fake job?

It's not a "fake" job. It's legally a very real job, I just don't actually do any work. I am on the company payroll and pay all of the normal payroll taxes. There is no difference between me and the other employees. The government doesn't care if you are actually doing any real "work". In fact if someone were to report this the IRS/government would have no problem with it. They are very happy if people/busineses want to manufacture "jobs" and willingly pay into Social Security.

The IRS does indeed have a problem with it.  So much so that it is routinely listed on the Dirty Dozen list.

Quote
Don’t make up income or create forms
Some people falsely increase the income they report to the IRS. This scam involves inflating or including income on a tax return that was never earned, either as wages or self-employment income, usually to maximize refundable tax credits, such as the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

Like falsely claiming an expense or deduction, claiming income that was never earned is also illegal. Taxpayers can face a large bill to repay the erroneous refunds, along with penalties and interest. In addition, their future eligibility to claim the EITC may also be affected. They could even face criminal prosecution.

Remember, taxpayers are ultimately responsible for the accuracy of their tax return even if they pay someone else to prepare it.
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/schemes-involving-falsifying-income-creating-bogus-documents-make-irs-dirty-dozen-list-for-2019
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 30, 2020, 04:07:50 PM
Why does the family member pay you $13,000 to do next to nothing? Is this a parent giving you an early inheritance? Or do you funnel your "wages" back to them?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Wile - Again, the IRS article you linked has nothing to do with what I am doing. I have a legal job and report exactly what is shown on mw W2.

Why does the family member pay you $13,000 to do next to nothing? Is this a parent giving you an early inheritance? Or do you funnel your "wages" back to them?

I pay them back the $13,000 plus the 12.5% SS tax.
It's all perfectly legal. We're talking about such a small amount of money. Gift tax exclusion for 2020 is $15,000. So I give the money back and it's considered a gift.

Even if you aren't in a position to have a manufactured job, you will still likely qualify for both SNAP and Medicaid. It's one of the many benefits to frugal mustachian living.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 30, 2020, 04:30:54 PM
You may be interested to read:

https://www.carltonfields.com/insights/publications/2015/doctrinal-tools-the-irs-will-use-to-challenge-clai

Search for "Sham transaction doctrine"
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 04:31:10 PM
Wile - Again, the IRS article you linked has nothing to do with what I am doing. I have a legal job and report exactly what is shown on mw W2.

Why does the family member pay you $13,000 to do next to nothing? Is this a parent giving you an early inheritance? Or do you funnel your "wages" back to them?

I pay them back the $13,000 plus the 12.5% SS tax.
It's all perfectly legal. We're talking about such a small amount of money. Gift tax exclusion for 2020 is $15,000. So I give the money back and it's considered a gift.

Even if you aren't in a position to have a manufactured job, you will still likely qualify for both SNAP and Medicaid. It's one of the many benefits to frugal mustachian living.

Have you actually done any research on this, or do you just feel like you know the answer?

Maybe take a look at the actual language of the code section that provides for the EITC and then tell me how exactly you qualify?

Scratch that, I will save you the trouble.  You do not.  The earned income tax credit is only available if you have "earned income."  Earned income includes "wages, salaries, tips, and other employee compensation" plus earnings from self employment.  You may think you have wages, but you do not.  You have a gift.  Wages includes only "remuneration for services performed by an employee for his employer."  Since you have stated clearly that you do not do any actual work, you do not have wages that qualify for the EITC.  You have committed tax fraud.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 04:38:36 PM
Scratch that, I will save you the trouble.  You do not.  The earned income tax credit is only available if you have "earned income."  Earned income includes "wages, salaries, tips, and other employee compensation" plus earnings from self employment.  You may think you have wages, but you do not.  You have a gift.  Wages includes only "remuneration for services performed by an employee for his employer."  Since you have stated clearly that you do not do any actual work, you do not have wages that qualify for the EITC.  You have committed tax fraud.

If it was a gift it wouldn't be paid through the company payroll and have Social Security, Medicare and other taxes withheld. Business owners give jobs to their family members ALL OF THE TIME.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 04:43:41 PM
Scratch that, I will save you the trouble.  You do not.  The earned income tax credit is only available if you have "earned income."  Earned income includes "wages, salaries, tips, and other employee compensation" plus earnings from self employment.  You may think you have wages, but you do not.  You have a gift.  Wages includes only "remuneration for services performed by an employee for his employer."  Since you have stated clearly that you do not do any actual work, you do not have wages that qualify for the EITC.  You have committed tax fraud.

If it was a gift it wouldn't be paid through the company payroll and have Social Security, Medicare and other taxes withheld. Business owners give jobs to their family members ALL OF THE TIME.

I know you like to think you know tax law, but you do not.  Please stop.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 30, 2020, 04:45:17 PM
Dude this is absolutely not legal.

Employing family members to take advantage of nice tax code provisions isn't exactly a revolutionary idea. Landlords employ their kids to mow the lawns and paint a fence. Highly paid white collar professionals employ their spouses to provide administrative for their business. Store owners employ their flailing nephews to pad their resume and make them get out of bed in the morning. The list goes on.

But you need at least a modicum of appearance of an arm's length transaction.

You've stated multiple times that there is no such thing in your arrangement.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 04:55:36 PM
You guys are completely missing the point. I am the "Office Manager", work from home and receive a very reasonable salary of $13,000 per year. No different than any other kid with a nice cushy job from their relatives.

Stop derailing the thread with your armchair accounting/tax lawyering.

My family's business employs a full time accountant and I assure you we are doing everything by the book.

I made this thread to show interested people how they can make a few thousand a year by having a small amount of W2 income and having kids. Even if you're not interested in that, the thread should be focused on applying for SNAP and Medicaid.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Glenstache on December 30, 2020, 05:48:02 PM
Wile - Again, the IRS article you linked has nothing to do with what I am doing. I have a legal job and report exactly what is shown on mw W2.

Why does the family member pay you $13,000 to do next to nothing? Is this a parent giving you an early inheritance? Or do you funnel your "wages" back to them?

I pay them back the $13,000 plus the 12.5% SS tax.
It's all perfectly legal. We're talking about such a small amount of money. Gift tax exclusion for 2020 is $15,000. So I give the money back and it's considered a gift.

Even if you aren't in a position to have a manufactured job, you will still likely qualify for both SNAP and Medicaid. It's one of the many benefits to frugal mustachian living.
Do you pay back the family or the business? If the former, this is absolutely tax evasion, and you are effectively a ghost employee. If the second, how does the business report that remittance as income?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 05:48:31 PM
You guys are completely missing the point. I am the "Office Manager", work from home and receive a very reasonable salary of $13,000 per year. No different than any other kid with a nice cushy job from their relatives.

Stop derailing the thread with your armchair accounting/tax lawyering.

My family's business employs a full time accountant and I assure you we are doing everything by the book.

I made this thread to show interested people how they can make a few thousand a year by having a small amount of W2 income and having kids. Even if you're not interested in that, the thread should be focused on applying for SNAP and Medicaid.

I am not missing the point.  I am sorry if my armchair accounting/tax lawyering offends you, but I don't take kindly to activity like this.  You cannot claim to be making a reasonable salary and in the same breath state:

I have an agreement with a family member who runs a business to have a "job" without actually ever working


It's legally a very real job, I just don't actually do any work.

I pay them back the $13,000 plus the 12.5% SS tax.

Since I am not going to get through to you, I will simply wish you good luck.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sid Hoffman on December 30, 2020, 05:50:52 PM
It's not a "fake" job. It's legally a very real job, I just don't actually do any work.

So you're a political consultant? That's probably my favorite fake job that's a real job. People who are politically connected get paid for their influence while never actually doing anything. Same for all the CEOs that are paid to sit on the board of directors for a bunch of companies just to call into a conference call once a year and pretend to listen in while doing something else. Sweet gig if you can get it!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 05:58:18 PM
Do you pay back the family or the business? If the former, this is absolutely tax evasion, and you are effectively a ghost employee. If the second, how does the business report that remittance as income?

Well in that case I am a ghost employee. Whatever that even means. I have been doing this for years and have never been audited. Even if I was audited, everything is done by the book. There is nothing wrong with working for a family business and gifting each other money. Let's just say I conceded all of your points? Let's move on and get back to the point of the thread.

The point of this thread is to discuss how you can profit about $7,000 per year off the EITC and CTC, as well as a lot more off SNAP and Medicaid.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Glenstache on December 30, 2020, 06:04:06 PM
Do you pay back the family or the business? If the former, this is absolutely tax evasion, and you are effectively a ghost employee. If the second, how does the business report that remittance as income?

Well in that case I am a ghost employee. Whatever that even means. I have been doing this for years and have never been audited. Even if I was audited, everything is done by the book. There is nothing wrong with working for a family business and gifting each other money. Let's just say I conceded all of your points? Let's move on and get back to the point of the thread.

The point of this thread is to discuss how you can profit about $7,000 per year off the EITC and CTC, as well as a lot more off SNAP and Medicaid.
You may think that is what the point of this thread is. However, those reading it have identified this as a fraudulent scheme that steals 1) from the family business through outright fraud, and 2) from the government by using the fake job to apply for benefits. "Profit" is not the term for that.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 30, 2020, 06:16:35 PM
Fellas, let me tell you about my little hobby garden. I grow vegetables year round and eat very healthily. As a bonus, the gardening tools make it easy to trap and kill any neighborhood cat that trespasses on my property. I then use their meat to make a delicious stew.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 06:18:07 PM
You may think that is what the point of this thread is. However, those reading it have identified this as a fraudulent scheme that steals 1) from the family business through outright fraud, and 2) from the government by using the fake job to apply for benefits. "Profit" is not the term for that.

It's not a fraudulent scheme. It's jumping through the hoops that U.S. tax law requires. You guys are arguing for the spirit of the tax law, I am following tax law to the letter.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 30, 2020, 06:28:36 PM
Fellas, let me tell you about my little hobby garden. I grow vegetables year round and eat very healthily. As a bonus, the gardening tools make it easy to trap and kill any neighborhood cat that trespasses on my property. I then use their meat to make a delicious stew.

Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Glenstache on December 30, 2020, 06:30:43 PM
You may think that is what the point of this thread is. However, those reading it have identified this as a fraudulent scheme that steals 1) from the family business through outright fraud, and 2) from the government by using the fake job to apply for benefits. "Profit" is not the term for that.

It's not a fraudulent scheme. It's jumping through the hoops that U.S. tax law requires. You guys are arguing for the spirit of the tax law, I am following tax law to the letter.
Good luck, and good luck to the family members using you as a ghost employee.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bacchi on December 30, 2020, 06:47:37 PM
Troll.

Typical conservative post to make people think that welfare cheats are everywhere stealing our tax money and driving Caddies. The giveaway is the "Isn't it wonderful?" line, inviting sensible people -- especially liberals, who generally support benefits to the impoverished -- to condemn the troll's activities.

Reeeee!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Dicey on December 30, 2020, 07:46:04 PM
You registered today, just so you could extol your virtuosity?

And then you had the temerity to say:

Stop derailing the thread with your armchair accounting/tax lawyering.
As you may or may not know, we take our profanity very seriously here, therefore, I'm just going to say, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 08:11:45 PM
You may think that is what the point of this thread is. However, those reading it have identified this as a fraudulent scheme that steals 1) from the family business through outright fraud, and 2) from the government by using the fake job to apply for benefits. "Profit" is not the term for that.

It's not a fraudulent scheme. It's jumping through the hoops that U.S. tax law requires. You guys are arguing for the spirit of the tax law, I am following tax law to the letter.

No, you are not. I told you exactly what the tax law says.  I can provide citations to the code if you like, but I suspect they will mean very little to you. 
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Weisass on December 30, 2020, 08:20:30 PM
Fellas, let me tell you about my little hobby garden. I grow vegetables year round and eat very healthily. As a bonus, the gardening tools make it easy to trap and kill any neighborhood cat that trespasses on my property. I then use their meat to make a delicious stew.

Lol
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Weisass on December 30, 2020, 08:23:22 PM
Let me know what you think...

To be fair to the folks here, you *did* ask them to tell you what they think...
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 08:26:04 PM
As you may or may not know, we take our profanity very seriously here, therefore, I'm just going to say, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

You're a 62 year old boomer, I'm a 26 year old retired Gen Z. Do you actually have anything intelligent to say about my post? The programs I have listed are a right to all Americans and should be included in all of our FIRE calculations.

No, you are not. I told you exactly what the tax law says.  I can provide citations to the code if you like, but I suspect they will mean very little to you. 

Again Wile.. You linked to an IRS page with details about who qualifies for the EITC. I meet all of the requirements to qualify for it.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bacchi on December 30, 2020, 08:29:04 PM
The programs I have listed are a right to all Americans and should be included in all of our FIRE calculations.

You need to work on your delivery. It's too...pleading.

Lay it out slower and let people come to it.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on December 30, 2020, 09:49:21 PM
As you may or may not know, we take our profanity very seriously here, therefore, I'm just going to say, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

You're a 62 year old boomer, I'm a 26 year old retired Gen Z. Do you actually have anything intelligent to say about my post? The programs I have listed are a right to all Americans and should be included in all of our FIRE calculations.

No, you are not. I told you exactly what the tax law says.  I can provide citations to the code if you like, but I suspect they will mean very little to you. 

Again Wile.. You linked to an IRS page with details about who qualifies for the EITC. I meet all of the requirements to qualify for it.

I wasn’t referring to the article.  I was referring to my statement of what the law says.  But clearly this is not getting through to you.  Feel free to read Sections 32(c)(2) & 3401(a) for yourself.  I’m done here, unless you actually want to learn something.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 30, 2020, 09:54:41 PM
You registered today, just so you could extol your virtuosity?

And then you had the temerity to say:

Stop derailing the thread with your armchair accounting/tax lawyering.
As you may or may not know, we take our profanity very seriously here, therefore, I'm just going to say, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

Hey, Dicey, that was very polite for this thread.  I'll sponsor you to Canada any time.  ;-) 
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 30, 2020, 09:55:45 PM
Step 1: transfer your house to a business
Step 2: the business applies to section 8 as a landlord
Step 3: you apply to section 8 as a tenant
Step 4: the government pays you to live in your own house

Easy $1,000/month. Just following the letter of the law. Literally can't go tits up.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: marty998 on December 30, 2020, 09:58:23 PM
As you may or may not know, we take our profanity very seriously here, therefore, I'm just going to say, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."

You're a 62 year old boomer, I'm a 26 year old retired Gen Z. Do you actually have anything intelligent to say about my post? The programs I have listed are a right to all Americans and should be included in all of our FIRE calculations.

No, you're a leech who is defrauding the taxpayer. I'll bet the family member is also defrauding the taxpayer by claiming expense deductions for the "wages" paid which you hand back as cash under the table.

That much is crystal clear.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 10:09:56 PM
Step 1: transfer your house to a business
Step 2: the business applies to section 8 as a landlord
Step 3: you apply to section 8 as a tenant
Step 4: the government pays you to live in your own house

Easy $1,000/month. Just following the letter of the law. Literally can't go tits up.


LMAO. You jest Paul, but I've actually been researching something in a similar vein. There's something called a Housing Choice Voucher that can be used to pay your own mortgage: it's an alternative to Section 8 housing vouchers. It's not universal throughout the country though so I didn't list it. Another option I've been looking at is income based housing. I would only pay 30% of my W2 income to rent a place.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bacchi on December 30, 2020, 10:30:54 PM
Step 1: transfer your house to a business
Step 2: the business applies to section 8 as a landlord
Step 3: you apply to section 8 as a tenant
Step 4: the government pays you to live in your own house

Easy $1,000/month. Just following the letter of the law. Literally can't go tits up.


LMAO. You jest Paul, but I've actually been researching something in a similar vein. There's something called a Housing Choice Voucher that can be used to pay your own mortgage: it's an alternative to Section 8 housing vouchers. It's not universal throughout the country though so I didn't list it. Another option I've been looking at is income based housing. I would only pay 30% of my W2 income to rent a place.

Again, you're trying too hard. Make it seem more natural instead of constantly pushing your agenda.

You'll get there.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 30, 2020, 11:20:54 PM
You may be interested to read:

https://www.carltonfields.com/insights/publications/2015/doctrinal-tools-the-irs-will-use-to-challenge-clai

Search for "Sham transaction doctrine"

OP, you skipped over me.  I feel left out.

(@bacchi, thanks for the tips.)
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 30, 2020, 11:48:36 PM
OP, you skipped over me.  I feel left out.

The link you posted has no relevance to this thread. You and others are throwing out obscure legal theories that the IRS could argue in court. It's completely irrelevant to individual tax filers.

The fact is hundreds of millions of Americans claim the EITC and CTC. Tens of millions are on SNAP and Medicaid. These are effectively a UBI and MUST be included in calculations for FIRE.

For arguments sake, lets say I DIDN'T give the $13,000 back. Let's just say it was a cushy job from a family member. Well, that $13,000 would turn into around $20,000 with the tax refund.

Do you see the point I'm making??? This thread has been derailed by midwits that fail to see the broader picture.

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 30, 2020, 11:57:13 PM
OP, you skipped over me.  I feel left out.

The link you posted has no relevance to this thread. You and others are throwing out obscure legal theories that the IRS could argue in court. It's completely irrelevant to individual tax filers.

Al Capone might beg to take umbrage at your words, Gen Z.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 12:21:35 AM
OP, you skipped over me.  I feel left out.

The link you posted has no relevance to this thread. You and others are throwing out obscure legal theories that the IRS could argue in court. It's completely irrelevant to individual tax filers.

The fact is hundreds of millions of Americans claim the EITC and CTC. Tens of millions are on SNAP and Medicaid. These are effectively a UBI and MUST be included in calculations for FIRE.

For arguments sake, lets say I DIDN'T give the $13,000 back. Let's just say it was a cushy job from a family member. Well, that $13,000 would turn into around $20,000 with the tax refund.

Do you see the point I'm making??? This thread has been derailed by midwits that fail to see the broader picture.

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.

Thanks, now I feel better.  Although your response was a tad predictable.  Overall I'd give it a 4.5 out of 10.

(@bacchi, I know, I know.  I'll stop now.)
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2020, 12:47:30 AM
Thanks, now I feel better.  Although your response was a tad predictable.  Overall I'd give it a 4.5 out of 10.

I think this part:

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.

...really drags the quality down. General whinging, with undertones of wheedling.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 12:50:48 AM
This thread has been flooded by childless boomers. Seethe more.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 01:22:00 AM
Thanks, now I feel better.  Although your response was a tad predictable.  Overall I'd give it a 4.5 out of 10.

I think this part:

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.

...really drags the quality down. General whinging, with undertones of wheedling.

"whinging"... I love that word.  Thanks for using it.  How's your day been?  I can't keep up with your journal.  Cheers!

@SeidBereit <plonk!>
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2020, 01:37:18 AM
This thread has been flooded by childless boomers. Seethe more.

Settle down, hoss. I’m a Gen X. Now get off my lawn.

ETA: Okay, spirit of honesty, some methods of counting make me a Millennial. Cowabunga, dude!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2020, 01:39:16 AM
Thanks, now I feel better.  Although your response was a tad predictable.  Overall I'd give it a 4.5 out of 10.

I think this part:

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.

...really drags the quality down. General whinging, with undertones of wheedling.

"whinging"... I love that word.  Thanks for using it.  How's your day been?  I can't keep up with your journal.  Cheers!

@SeidBereit <plonk!>

Promoted to Commander. Moved to D.C. to become a policy wonk. Wife continues to be terrifying to self and others. All is well. Cheers!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 02:01:38 AM
Thanks, now I feel better.  Although your response was a tad predictable.  Overall I'd give it a 4.5 out of 10.

I think this part:

No one has even mentioned SNAP or Medicaid, which do not require ANY earned income to qualify for.

...really drags the quality down. General whinging, with undertones of wheedling.

"whinging"... I love that word.  Thanks for using it.  How's your day been?  I can't keep up with your journal.  Cheers!

@SeidBereit <plonk!>

Promoted to Commander. Moved to D.C. to become a policy wonk. Wife continues to be terrifying to self and others. All is well. Cheers!

Impressive.  Congratulations!

I'll add that I like the style of your journal(s).  Very chatty...like a Christmas open house party on steroids, but with wit and charm.  Mine is more like the diary of Anne Frank.  Dull and boring, with long interludes of nothingness, punctuated by fears of the Gestapo.  Periodic wistfulness about romance.  Navelgazing.

My three kids are well.  Apparently I have a Gen Y.1er and two Gen Z's.  No tax fraud on their part though.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: NotJen on December 31, 2020, 07:06:54 AM
My three kids are well.  Apparently I have a Gen Y.1er and two Gen Z's.  No tax fraud on their part though.

You should show them this thread.  They probably just don't know how wonderful it is.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 12:10:52 PM
My three kids are well.  Apparently I have a Gen Y.1er and two Gen Z's.  No tax fraud on their part though.

You should show them this thread.  They probably just don't know how wonderful it is.

That's an interesting philosophical question you bring up, @NotJen.

When raising children, do we demonstrate what to do, or what not to do?  Does it vary by situation?  One old parenting bit of advice I was told was to articulate the positive:  "Be kind" rather than "Don't hit your brother with spaghetti".  The logic was that if you said the latter, then they would obey the spaghetti hitting rule, but create the need for an additional "Don't pour milk up your sister's nostril" rule.  That is, the kid would be legalistic by nominally following one's request but find a new way around it.  And as you can imagine, there are lots of ways to torment siblings.

I think in this particular case I'm going to teach my kids how to properly and legally complete their tax returns.  They all have jobs and are working on (Gen Z) or have just finished their college (Gen Y.1) degrees.  I suppose some of their income is going to our mutual acquaintance.  While I am, in actual fact, all for taking all deductions and credits one is reasonably entitled to, going beyond a certain line - which I admit can be fuzzy in places but is rather clear in this thread IMNSHO - actually leads to a decrease in quality of life.

It's also an individual decision.  My two Gen Z's qualify for a particular financial aid break worth about $10K.  I presented it to both of them; one chose to go for it and one didn't.  I respect and support each of them.  Fortunately I've discovered that working and producing and contributing for a decade or two is actually good for the soul, and now have - through good fortune of birth as well as effort and good decisions on my part for three decades - more than enough.

Interestingly, in the case of the kid who declined the aforementioned financial aid break, they said "eh, we have enough, not worth the effort and any risk of people thinking we're skeevy".  Because in this case, although we were legitimately qualified, it could certainly appear as though we were gilding the lily.

Gilding the lily.  Lovely idiom.

Hope you have a great day!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: happychineseboy on December 31, 2020, 12:31:44 PM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: NotJen on December 31, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
I think in this particular case I'm going to teach my kids how to properly and legally complete their tax returns.  They all have jobs and are working on (Gen Z) or have just finished their college (Gen Y.1) degrees.  I suppose some of their income is going to our mutual acquaintance.  While I am, in actual fact, all for taking all deductions and credits one is reasonably entitled to, going beyond a certain line - which I admit can be fuzzy in places but is rather clear in this thread IMNSHO - actually leads to a decrease in quality of life.

My favorite "lesson" from my dad was about doing my own taxes.   I was in my first year of college when I first had taxable income.  I called him and asked him to do my taxes, since I saw him grumbling and complaining doing his own each year.  He said (paraphrased) "Dude, you just passed Calc III.  It's called a 1040-EZ for a reason.  Do your own taxes."  He agreed to check my form, but in reality, it would have been hard to screw up.  We still talk about taxes to this day, and I've even taught him a few things!

I appreciated starting out as easy as possible and learning from there - there are lots of misconceptions about taxes out there - in real life, it's rarely productive to point these out, but I try to do it online when I can.  I don't have kids to teach, but I have walked 3 BF's through doing their own taxes for the first time, so that's something.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on December 31, 2020, 01:18:55 PM
This was epic level trolling. Bravo, OP! Look how many irate responses you got. Maybe you could make yourself an award for it on Microsoft Paint.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: tj on December 31, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
You guys are completely missing the point. I am the "Office Manager", work from home and receive a very reasonable salary of $13,000 per year. No different than any other kid with a nice cushy job from their relatives.

Stop derailing the thread with your armchair accounting/tax lawyering.

My family's business employs a full time accountant and I assure you we are doing everything by the book.

I made this thread to show interested people how they can make a few thousand a year by having a small amount of W2 income and having kids. Even if you're not interested in that, the thread should be focused on applying for SNAP and Medicaid.

If you pay them back your salary, like you said you did, then you worked for free, and they are taking a sham business expense for money they are receiving back from you.  It may not prove to be fraud, but it's definitely unethical IMO.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 02:08:05 PM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school

Thanks. This thread really only has relevance to us young people. I homeschool my two daughters and we live an amazing life.


To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want, the fact is this information is extremely relevant to young people. If you're in a position to have a manufactured job, then get one and claim the EITC and CTC. If you're not in a position to do that then at least get on SNAP and Medicaid. Quit the rat race and live in harmony with your kids!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: tj on December 31, 2020, 02:14:31 PM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school

Thanks. This thread really only has relevance to us young people. I homeschool my two daughters and we live an amazing life.


To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want, the fact is this information is extremely relevant to young people. If you're in a position to have a manufactured job, then get one and claim the EITC and CTC. If you're not in a position to do that then at least get on SNAP and Medicaid. Quit the rat race and live in harmony with your kids!

This is not an age thing. And, are you really FI if you have to defraud the government in order to fund your lifestyle?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 31, 2020, 02:16:56 PM
If you acquire your kids gently used on the secondary market, the state pays you even more. Easy $500 a month on top of the all the other credits.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bacchi on December 31, 2020, 02:21:00 PM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school

Thanks. This thread really only has relevance to us young people. I homeschool my two daughters and we live an amazing life.


To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want, the fact is this information is extremely relevant to young people. If you're in a position to have a manufactured job, then get one and claim the EITC and CTC. If you're not in a position to do that then at least get on SNAP and Medicaid. Quit the rat race and live in harmony with your kids!

This is not an age thing. And, are you really FI if you have to defraud the government in order to fund your lifestyle?

The OP isn't FI. He's trolling.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 02:23:59 PM
This is not an age thing. And, are you really FI if you have to defraud the government in order to fund your lifestyle?

YES. EITC and CTC are effectively a UBI. Just need to jump through a few hoops to get them. My investments are enough to live off regardless, so yes I am FIREd.

If you acquire your kids gently used on the secondary market, the state pays you even more. Easy $500 a month on top of the all the other credits.

Yeah, but that's cuckoldy. They wouldn't be "your" kids.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 31, 2020, 02:26:03 PM
If you acquire your kids gently used on the secondary market, the state pays you even more. Easy $500 a month on top of the all the other credits.
Yeah, but that's cuckoldy. They wouldn't be "your" kids.
They definitely would be in the eyes of the law.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: bacchi on December 31, 2020, 02:28:34 PM
If you acquire your kids gently used on the secondary market, the state pays you even more. Easy $500 a month on top of the all the other credits.

Yeah, but that's cuckoldy. They wouldn't be "your" kids.

This word is too obvious. You need to study your audience more.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Padonak on December 31, 2020, 02:54:54 PM
OP is obviously a troll but even if he wasn't, I wouldn't hate him. I would actually grab a beer with him. I mean who cares if someone jumps through all these hoops to make a few thousand dollars a year in government bennies. The real crooks are the ultra rich and also high ranking politicians who are all in one cabal anyway whose main goal is keep the rest of us as their slaves.

Here is the problem withOP's strategy though: it is humiliating. Too much bullshit for too little reward. Applying and re-applying for all these programs involves dealing with idiots who will never get a job in the private sector and probably don't add much more value to society than the OP's fictitious character does in his fake job.

OP, I don't think you are impressing anyone here. This is a forum where many participants currently sit on their asses "working from home", making well into six figures and, while slacking off on the clock, lecturing those who don't have that luxury that they should "stay home and save lives". Cause you know, why wouldn't you stay home right? Just order food on GrubHub and DoorDash and a bunch of shit on Amazon and let the slaves take care of the rest. Some are making mid six figures or even more just because they happen to work in one of the "hot" sectors. Just their bonuses and RSUs alone are much higher all the money you (or your character) will ever mooch off the Government.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: yachi on December 31, 2020, 03:04:15 PM

My investments are enough to live off regardless, so yes I am FIREd.


Seid, this thread is hilarious.  SNAP is means tested, with a net worth limit of less than 4k.  So no, you're investments are not enough to live off.  In qualifying for the EITC, "investment income" includes capital gains too, not just dividends.  The EITC is great if you can bring your AGI down by putting money into HSA accounts, IRA's and your 401(k), but it's not achievable in ER due to the investment income restrictions.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2020, 03:10:11 PM
To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want...

Again, my critique is the complaint is overblown. There’s very little seething here. Mostly just taking advantage of some homegrown entertainment. It’s COVID times, and I for one am enjoying the simple and homey entertainment!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 03:11:45 PM
Here is the problem withOP's strategy though: it is humiliating. Too much bullshit for too little reward.

Here's what I profit off my strategy:
$7,000 per year from my tax return
$7200 per year from SNAP
Medicaid covers all of our medical expenses.

At my age, this is a huge amount of money. It allows my portfolio to grow without being drawn down. Compound $14,200 over 30 years and we're talking about millions of dollars I am gaining by this strategy.


My investments are enough to live off regardless, so yes I am FIREd.

SNAP is means tested, with a net worth limit of less than 4k. 

That used to be the case. Under new rules, 34 states have adopted a policy called Broad Based Categorical Elligibility BBCE. 34 states do not look at any assets, only your income.
I'm also careful to make sure I don't get close to $3500 per year in dividends. I'm not selling my investments so I don't have any capital gains.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Padonak on December 31, 2020, 03:20:55 PM

Medicaid covers all of our medical expenses.


Also, it depends on the state but Medicaid is generally much worse than ACA and employer-sponsored plans. Good doctors don't take it.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 04:12:59 PM
To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want...

Again, my critique is the complaint is overblown. There’s very little seething here. Mostly just taking advantage of some homegrown entertainment. It’s COVID times, and I for one am enjoying the simple and homey entertainment!

With some of the best trolls it's hard to tell if they're actually trolling or actually don't get it.  The OP is actually moving up a bit in my eyes as I really can't tell which it is and I sorta want to know, you know?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on December 31, 2020, 04:19:11 PM
One way to figure it out would be for the OP to put their money where their mouth is.

The IRS used to have a "turn in a tax cheat and we'll share the money with you, you tattletale you" program.  IIRC my cut would be 20%.

I can't quite tell because the OP is a bit inconsistent - is it that what they're doing isn't wrong, or it's only wrong in some theoretical sense, or it's definitely wrong but they'll never get caught, or it's wrong but the government is foolish/unethical so that makes it OK.

But what I had thought of doing is offering to pay OP, say half of what I think I would get via the IRS Tattletale Program (No, that's not what it's called) in return for me turning them in.  If they're right and what they're doing is on the up and up, then they make thousands more dollars.  Easy money, right?  If I'm right - and I know I am if the OP is telling the truth - then I get a few thousand dollars for ratting out an Internet troll and tax cheat.  Easy money, right?

The only thing is, in my worldview the OP is happy to lie and cheat, and I've no easy way of making a business deal with them of any size with any degree of reliability.  And setting up any sort of one time escrow service is too much hassle.  Well there's that, and the fact that I've <plonk!>-ed the OP so I would be able to read their acceptance of my offer.

Well, anyway, it was an interesting mental exercise.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 04:55:27 PM
@secondcor521

If one were to report my strategy to the IRS they wouldn't even understand what this supposed fraud even is. You would have a very very very difficult time explaining it. The agent would probably think you're retarded.
You would accuse me of having a fake job with fake wages. If they even bothered to investigate it they would quickly realize that these are in fact very REAL wages. FICA taxes are being withheld!
Next you would say, "well but he gives those wages back to the business owner"....
At this point the IRS would decide that this is so petty it isn't even worth their time. Who cares what he does with his own wages once earned? It's perfectly legal to donate your wages to a business, or gift your wages to a family member.
But lets just say they agreed with you and continued to investigate. They would quickly give up because there is no proof that would hold up in court.
We're talking about such a small amount of money, $13,000 W2 income, that none of your boomer obscure tax law theories have any relevance.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: kpd905 on December 31, 2020, 05:42:13 PM
$7,000 per year from my tax return

Tax refund.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Nate79 on December 31, 2020, 06:02:51 PM
This is tax fraud and is busted all the time. Recently saw a group go to jail doing exactly this.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 06:09:52 PM
This is tax fraud and is busted all the time. Recently saw a group go to jail doing exactly this.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



Link it then. Show me a SINGLE case.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Nate79 on December 31, 2020, 06:37:07 PM
This is tax fraud and is busted all the time. Recently saw a group go to jail doing exactly this.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



Link it then. Show me a SINGLE case.
The case I am intimately aware of I know of personally but details were not published. And neither do I care to help you. You need a lawyer but based on your attitude I doubt you will so anything.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wintergreen78 on December 31, 2020, 06:40:08 PM
To you old people in the thread....Seethe and moan all you want...

Again, my critique is the complaint is overblown. There’s very little seething here. Mostly just taking advantage of some homegrown entertainment. It’s COVID times, and I for one am enjoying the simple and homey entertainment!

With some of the best trolls it's hard to tell if they're actually trolling or actually don't get it.  The OP is actually moving up a bit in my eyes as I really can't tell which it is and I sorta want to know, you know?

I’m voting for troll. But this is kind of an entertaining thread.

Who, me? This kickback scheme I just described is definitely not fraud! I haven’t been audited, so this is 100% legal. It is only illegal if you get charged with a crime!

It is hard to argue with logic like that.

Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 31, 2020, 10:50:55 PM
If you acquire your kids gently used on the secondary market, the state pays you even more. Easy $500 a month on top of the all the other credits.

Yeah, but that's cuckoldy. They wouldn't be "your" kids.

This word is too obvious. You need to study your audience more.

Yeah, seriously, dude. If you think adopting a child is the same as [insert phrasing from whatever you're into, I guess] then you're a moron.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on December 31, 2020, 11:28:27 PM
Yeah, seriously, dude. If you think adopting a child is the same as [insert phrasing from whatever you're into, I guess] then you're a moron.

I know people who do exactly what Paul is talking about. They 'foster' kids and make quite a bit of money doing it.

It's not natural or healthy and the money they make isn't worth it. There's nothing more important than blood. I could never devote even a tiny fraction of my time to other people's children. I live for my own children.

Do as you like, but I'm going to keep making my own babies. Eventually my SNAP benefit will be over $1000 monthly.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 01, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
@secondcor521 , I’m increasingly getting— What’s the currently acceptable word? Ah, disturbed. I’m getting disturbed vibes.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on January 01, 2021, 11:48:27 AM
@secondcor521 , I’m increasingly getting— What’s the currently acceptable word? Ah, disturbed. I’m getting disturbed vibes.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to do.  Eject them?  Eject oneself?  Play some more / poke fun?

Personally I've sort of lost interest, since the intrigue of uncertainty is gone.

Cheers, Commander!  Oh, and Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on January 01, 2021, 06:03:37 PM

Do as you like................

Your permission means a lot to me. Thanks.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on January 01, 2021, 06:06:33 PM
@secondcor521 , I’m increasingly getting— What’s the currently acceptable word? Ah, disturbed. I’m getting disturbed vibes.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to do.  Eject them?  Eject oneself?  Play some more / poke fun?

Personally I've sort of lost interest, since the intrigue of uncertainty is gone.

Cheers, Commander!  Oh, and Happy New Year.

Look, he has a clear opinion and since all opinions are valid we need to respect and celebrate it. For him, the act of caring for a child (who is also your neighbor) is not a good idea. But being your children's teacher, while also being an online troll, in the place of dozens of professionally trained educators with decades of experience who fall under levels of formal oversight, is.

I hope this helps you see it more clearly form that high horse of yours.

ETA: Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 01, 2021, 06:24:10 PM
@secondcor521 , I’m increasingly getting— What’s the currently acceptable word? Ah, disturbed. I’m getting disturbed vibes.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to do.  Eject them?  Eject oneself?  Play some more / poke fun?

Personally I've sort of lost interest, since the intrigue of uncertainty is gone.

Cheers, Commander!  Oh, and Happy New Year.

Look, he has a clear opinion and since all opinions are valid we need to respect and celebrate it. For him, the act of caring for a child (who is also your neighbor) is not a good idea. But being your children's teacher, while also being an online troll, in the place of dozens of professionally trained educators with decades of experience who fall under levels of formal oversight, is.

I hope this helps you see it more clearly form that high horse of yours.

ETA: Happy New Year!

You included my post, so I’m assuming I’m also considered to have a high horse?

OP stated a preference to continue having children, in order to accumulate increasing SNAP benefits. There is no corresponding statement that the proto-children are also desired as objects of love, affection, and individuality. The lack of specific inclusion of love/affection/individuality makes the OP sound like children are being acquired for the sole benefit of SNAP.

Since all opinions are valid, then I get to respond with my opinion that states that the OP’s explicitly stated reasons for wanting more children is “disturbed as a motherfucker.”

I’m actually violently allergic to horses. I prefer the view from the for’t’galant yard.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: iris lily on January 01, 2021, 06:32:21 PM
Lots of fun, OP. Thanks for playing!

I learned:

* Boomers they be jelly-ous

* IRS laws have no relevance to those who file

* It is glorious to be young and stupid

* tj asks uncomfortable questions
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: iris lily on January 01, 2021, 06:34:06 PM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school

You younguns are hitting it out of the park today. Bless your hearts.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 01, 2021, 06:41:04 PM
But being your children's teacher, while also being an online troll, in the place of dozens of professionally trained educators with decades of experience who fall under levels of formal oversight, is.
ETA: Happy New Year!

So now you're demonizing me for homeschooling my daughters? "professionaly trained educators", lol dude. I'm not going to subject my kids to these terrible, petty cat women.

@Sailor Sam

I would continue to have kids even if it didn't increase benefits. Even if it cost me everything I had, I would rather create another child. There is not greater investment than creating a child and seeing my bloodline flourish.
It's just a nice bonus that the government is aligned with my interests and rewards me.

@iris lily
Haha, I do think a majority of the negative feedback to this thread is just boomer jealousy.

About this alleged tax fraud, no one has actually proven that this is fraud. If someone can link me to an article that shows my exact strategy being prosecuted then I will concede. I think what's happening is that some people are offended by this strategy and have a gut reaction that it MUST BE ILLEGAL. It's not illegal at all. If you don't like it, then write to your reps to have the tax code changed, but don't assume that it is illegal.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 01, 2021, 07:05:30 PM
I would continue to have kids even if it didn't increase benefits. Even if it cost me everything I had, I would rather create another child. There is not greater investment than creating a child and seeing my bloodline flourish.

Cool, cool. You’re still not actually saying you’d love the fuckers as individuals. All you’ve gotten so far is that you like the SNAP they bring in, and you find it satisfying to pass on your own bloodline. The creepy vibe continues.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 01, 2021, 07:13:56 PM
Cool, cool. You’re still not actually saying you’d love the fuckers as individuals. All you’ve gotten so far is that you like the SNAP they bring in, and you find it satisfying to pass on your own bloodline. The creepy vibe continues.

So now it's creepy to care about your bloodline? We've got some strange personalities in here. Do you even have children @Sailor Sam ?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: iris lily on January 01, 2021, 07:17:37 PM
Cool, cool. You’re still not actually saying you’d love the fuckers as individuals. All you’ve gotten so far is that you like the SNAP they bring in, and you find it satisfying to pass on your own bloodline. The creepy vibe continues.

So now it's creepy to care about your bloodline? We've got some strange personalities in here. Do you even have children @Sailor Sam ?

What is bloodline to you?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 01, 2021, 07:31:43 PM
Cool, cool. You’re still not actually saying you’d love the fuckers as individuals. All you’ve gotten so far is that you like the SNAP they bring in, and you find it satisfying to pass on your own bloodline. The creepy vibe continues.

So now it's creepy to care about your bloodline? We've got some strange personalities in here. Do you even have children @Sailor Sam ?

‘Bout as many as you have.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 01, 2021, 07:37:52 PM
What kind of half-ass FI did you achieve if you don't even have $3,500 of taxable investment income? Are you even Voyager Select?
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Glenstache on January 01, 2021, 07:40:02 PM
Just for fun:
https://dailyvoice.com/connecticut/fairfield/news/ex-connecticut-resident-sentenced-for-tax-evasion-scheme-using-ghost-employees/781537/
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 01, 2021, 07:49:34 PM
What kind of half-ass FI did you achieve if you don't even have $3,500 of taxable investment income? Are you even Voyager Select?

Plenty of mutual funds have dividends of less than 1%. FTEC only has a yield of 0.42%. With rental property investing everything is written off so there is no gain. Plenty of ways. At my age I have a decent portfolio that will grow into millions of dollars. We live on less than $15,000 per year including my mortgage. My strategy covers all of our expenses.

Just for fun:
https://dailyvoice.com/connecticut/fairfield/news/ex-connecticut-resident-sentenced-for-tax-evasion-scheme-using-ghost-employees/781537/

That link describes a scam where an employer creates fake employees using I'm presuming stolen identities without consent. I am a real employee, pay all of my FICA taxes, and report all of my income on my tax return. My paychecks are deposited directly into my own bank account. What I do with my own wages after I earn them and pay taxes on them is my business. It's perfectly legal to gift my wages to a family member.
That link is nothing like what my strategy is. Try harder.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: NotJen on January 01, 2021, 08:11:09 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/99a9ae6ab91403ce19a1f88a0fdb6677/tenor.gif?itemid=17591802)
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: secondcor521 on January 01, 2021, 10:34:57 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/99a9ae6ab91403ce19a1f88a0fdb6677/tenor.gif?itemid=17591802)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upifaeK0B5U
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Chris Pascale on January 01, 2021, 10:43:23 PM
You included my post, so I’m assuming I’m also considered to have a high horse?



Due to your allergies, I will exclude you from having a high horse. If anything changes in your equine status, please let me know.

My POV (which is valid, and should be celebrated) is that all people who have horses should be kept track of.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 01, 2021, 11:52:05 PM
About this alleged tax fraud, no one has actually proven that this is fraud. If someone can link me to an article that shows my exact strategy being prosecuted then I will concede. I think what's happening is that some people are offended by this strategy and have a gut reaction that it MUST BE ILLEGAL. It's not illegal at all. If you don't like it, then write to your reps to have the tax code changed, but don't assume that it is illegal.

You seem to want to learn more.  Very well then.  I am not sure why you keep ignoring the fact that I provided you with the language of the actual tax code.  You are not an employee.  You are not receiving compensation for services.

Section 32(a)(1) provides for an earned income tax credit for a percentage of "earned income."
Section 32(c)(2) defines "earned income" to include "wages, salaries, tips, and other employee compensation"
Section 3401(a) defines wages as remuneration "for services performed by an employee for his employer"

There are numerous cases dealing with situations where people have claimed that family members are "employees" earning wages, salaries or other "compensation for services" for lots of different reasons and they have lost.  A simple Google search will unearth those for you.  Those cases make it clear that you need to look at more than whether there is an agreement and reporting of wages.  They tend to look at many factors, including right of control, risk and reward, the parties' intent, including the existence of a written employment agreement, work history, nature, extent and documentation of work performed, tax and other formalities relating to worker status, and similar factors.  Note that an agreement and tax formalities are just a few of the factors that are considered, along with "work history" and "extent and documentation of work performed."  There are also cases on the deductibility side that look to whether the compensaction is reasonable for the services performed and indeed whether there were in fact compensation for personal services actually rendered.  You have stated quite clearly that no services were performed or expected to be performed.  By returning the money, you have provided additional evidence that no work was performed.  Calling something wages and reporting something as wages does not make them wages.  You can refer to the article that secondcor521 linked or research substance over form principles if you care to learn more.

It's really a shame that you have decided to go down this road and pulled your family into it.  You really shouldn't have done that, but that is your (and their) choice.  Please stop trying to pull other people into making the same mistake.  This is indeed tax fraud.  It is illegal.  It is criminal.  Will the IRS ever find it?  Perhaps not as it is really small potatoes, but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.  You saying that it is not illegal means nothing.  You are very welcome to provide a legal analysis to prove me wrong.  I would quite enjoy that actually.

P.S. You also forgot to subtract your repayment of the employment taxes from your "math" of the benefit of your "scheme."
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 02, 2021, 12:17:23 AM
@Wile E. Coyote

You think the IRS goes around monitoring employees to see if they actually are creating value for their employer? You're really grasping at straws here with this theoretical nonsense.

Let's imagine another scenario where I don't give the $13,000 back as a gift..Let's imagine it was an early inheritance. Now your entire argument falls apart, or would you call that fraud too?

Family businesses give their relatives cushy jobs all of the time. You claim that there are "numerous cases", well link them. I'm confident these "cases" are vastly different from what I am doing and that's why you haven't linked anything.

All you have to do is link to a single article showing my exact strategy being prosecuted. If you can't do that then stop posting this theoretical garbage.

P.S. You also forgot to subtract your repayment of the employment taxes from your "math" of the benefit of your "scheme."

No, the $7,000 tax refund is what I net after subtracting the employment taxes.


I'll just say this...If your entire argument for my strategy being fraud is based on a theoretical gray area of tax law then it doesn't really matter now does it? If it has never been argued in court, then you or even the IRS can have whatever opinion you want but it doesn't matter at all. You have to link to a single case showing my exact strategy being prosecuted.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 02, 2021, 01:23:32 AM
@Wile E. Coyote

You think the IRS goes around monitoring employees to see if they actually are creating value for their employer? You're really grasping at straws here with this theoretical nonsense.

Let's imagine another scenario where I don't give the $13,000 back as a gift..Let's imagine it was an early inheritance. Now your entire argument falls apart, or would you call that fraud too?

Family businesses give their relatives cushy jobs all of the time. You claim that there are "numerous cases", well link them. I'm confident these "cases" are vastly different from what I am doing and that's why you haven't linked anything.

All you have to do is link to a single article showing my exact strategy being prosecuted. If you can't do that then stop posting this theoretical garbage.

P.S. You also forgot to subtract your repayment of the employment taxes from your "math" of the benefit of your "scheme."

No, the $7,000 tax refund is what I net after subtracting the employment taxes.


I'll just say this...If your entire argument for my strategy being fraud is based on a theoretical gray area of tax law then it doesn't really matter now does it? If it has never been argued in court, then you or even the IRS can have whatever opinion you want but it doesn't matter at all. You have to link to a single case showing my exact strategy being prosecuted.

The law is not theoretical nonsense or a gray area, it is the law.  Just because the IRS may not waste their time on it doesn't mean it's not illegal.  I suspect that there aren't any cases with your specific fact pattern because it is ridiculous.  If it ever did happen, it would never get to court as no tax attorney in their right mind would take that case.  I have provided the specific tax law, please refute that with actual legal authority or just admit that you have no idea what you are talking about.

As noted, a quick Google search will show many cases addressing whether a bonafide employer-employee relationship exists.  Here is a quote from just one of those cases that I found in seconds from the Speltz Tax Court Decision (T.C. Summary Opinion 2006-25).  It contains additional citations to numerous other cases that you are welcome to read as well.  Note also the comments about extra scrutiny in family cases.:

Quote
Whether Mr. Speltz Was an Employee Whether an employer-employee relationship exists is a factual question. See Profl. & Executive Leasing, Inc. v. Commissioner, 862 F.2d 751, 753 (9th Cir. 1988), affg. 89 T.C. 225 (1987); Air Terminal Cab, Inc. v. United States, 478 F.2d 575, 578 (8th Cir. 1973); Packard v. Commissioner, 63 T.C. 621, 629-630 (1975); see also Haeder v.Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2001-7. Courts typically apply a common law agency test to determine whether an employer-employee relationship exists. See, e.g., Nationwide Mut. Ins. Co. v. Darden, 503 U.S. 318, 323-324 (1992); Community for Creative Non-Violence v. Reid, 490 U.S. 730, 751-752 (1989); Matthews v. Commissioner, 92 T.C. 351, 360 (1989), affd. 907 F.2d 1173 (D.C. Cir. 1990). Moreover, where a family relationship is involved, close scrutiny is required to determine whether a bona fide employer-employee relationship existed and whether payments were made on account of the employer-employee relationship or on account of the family relationship. See Denman v. Commissioner, 48 T.C. 439 (1967); Haeder v. Commissioner, supra; Shelley v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1994-432; Martens v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1990-42, affd. without published opinion 934 F.2d 319 (4th Cir. 1991);Jenkins v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1988-292, affd. without published opinion 880 F.2d 414 (6th Cir. 1989); Furmanski v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 1974-47.

While I know none of these cases will be your exact fact pattern (for the reason stated above) and you will try to argue that your case is different, this is the law that will be applied to your case.  It is the basic law when it comes to whether an emploment relationship exists, which your entire "scheme" requires in order for you to have "earned income" that qualifies for the EITC.

Again, I invite you to please provide specific legal authority for your position that what you are doing is not illegal.  You can't.  You will make some vague statement that what you are doing is different and make another ad hominem attack.  I really encourage you to think about this seriously, though.  You are putting yourself and your family at risk.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 02, 2021, 01:49:14 AM
Muh laws! Lmao. You don't even know the specifics of the cases you just pasted. Who the fuck are you to claim with such certainty that my strategy is fraud? Enough with this concern trolling. I have had accountants that have been in business for decades take a look at and scrutinize my strategy. They've agreed that my strategy is legal. It would be a different story if I was evading taxes, or falsely reporting fake self-employment income as some EITC frauds do...

How about this. Contact the IRS and tell them about my strategy. See what they say. I suspect it won't go very well for you.

And another thing. Just because you don't see value in my labor doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Whether you like it or not it IS earned income. Some days I go and sit at the office, therefore I earned it! If you disagree that is your OPINION. Stop trying to hide your personal opinions behind MUH LAW.

You don't even have to link to a successful prosecution of my strategy. Even just link to an IRS page detailing my strategy, I bet you can't.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 02, 2021, 02:03:32 AM
Muh laws! Lmao. You don't even know the specifics of the cases you just pasted. Who the fuck are you to claim with such certainty that my strategy is fraud? Enough with this concern trolling. I have had accountants that have been in business for decades take a look at and scrutinize my strategy. They've agreed that my strategy is legal. It would be a different story if I was evading taxes, or falsely reporting fake self-employment income as some EITC frauds do...

How about this. Contact the IRS and tell them about my strategy. See what they say. I suspect it won't go very well for you.

Hahaha!!  Those very sophisticated accountants that you pay to validate your 13,000 tax scheme!  I have defeated the IRS on tax controversies dealing with transactions in the billions of dollars. I would love to go toe to toe with them!  I would encourage you to share with this with them and would love to hear any response they may have with authority supporting their analysis. If they are worth their salt, they should have provided you with a written opinion that you could rely on to protect you from penalties. I would hope that it doesn’t start with “Muh, laws!”

I would also be happy to call the IRS.  Who’s return should I tell them to examine?

This has been great fun!  Thanks for the laughs.  Oh and by the way, even if it were perfectly legal, which it isn’t, why do it?  It doesn’t say much about your character.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on January 02, 2021, 02:09:15 AM
Muh laws! Lmao. You don't even know the specifics of the cases you just pasted. Who the fuck are you to claim with such certainty that my strategy is fraud? Enough with this concern trolling. I have had accountants that have been in business for decades take a look at and scrutinize my strategy. They've agreed that my strategy is legal. It would be a different story if I was evading taxes, or falsely reporting fake self-employment income as some EITC frauds do...

How about this. Contact the IRS and tell them about my strategy. See what they say. I suspect it won't go very well for you.

And another thing. Just because you don't see value in my labor doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Whether you like it or not it IS earned income. Some days I go and sit at the office, therefore I earned it! If you disagree that is your OPINION. Stop trying to hide your personal opinions behind MUH LAW.

You don't even have to link to a successful prosecution of my strategy. Even just link to an IRS page detailing my strategy, I bet you can't.

Oh yay, you edited!  Even more.  It wasn’t me that didn’t see value in your labor, it was you.  See your quotes above where you called it a fake job and said you did no work.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Dicey on January 02, 2021, 03:32:20 AM
Moral and legal issues aside, why would any able-bodied person want to live on so little voluntarily? Be sure to educate your children well, so they can become like Tara Westover and write a best-selling memoir about how messed up their upbringing was.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 02, 2021, 06:15:52 AM
Oh man, that was a good book. Ya allright, Dicey. You’re top shelf.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: kpd905 on January 02, 2021, 07:31:36 AM
Thanks for sharing

I plan to do something similar when I have kids

I am glad to see I am not the only one who would rather retire early to raise my kids than sit in a cube all day while they are molested in daycare or by their teachers in school

Nice straw man, @happychineseboy
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Adventine on January 02, 2021, 08:08:13 AM
Is the party over? I'm not done with my popcorn!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 02, 2021, 09:49:19 AM
Moral and legal issues aside, why would any able-bodied person want to live on so little voluntarily? Be sure to educate your children well, so they can become like Tara Westover and write a best-selling memoir about how messed up their upbringing was.

Thanks for the book recommendation - I just took it out.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: NotJen on January 02, 2021, 09:52:18 AM
Moral and legal issues aside, why would any able-bodied person want to live on so little voluntarily? Be sure to educate your children well, so they can become like Tara Westover and write a best-selling memoir about how messed up their upbringing was.

Thanks for the book recommendation - I just took it out.

Same.  I just put the audiobook on hold at my library - always looking for a good memoir to listen to.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Adventine on January 02, 2021, 09:57:05 AM
Moral and legal issues aside, why would any able-bodied person want to live on so little voluntarily? Be sure to educate your children well, so they can become like Tara Westover and write a best-selling memoir about how messed up their upbringing was.

Thanks for the book recommendation - I just took it out.

Same.  I just put the audiobook on hold at my library - always looking for a good memoir to listen to.

Funny, @Dicey 's recommedation piqued my interest too. I was lucky enough to be able to borrow it immediately from an online library. It's absorbing reading, but I had to put it down about 40% of the way in. The descriptions of abuse were too much.

I may return to the book eventually, but in small doses.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 02, 2021, 11:38:08 AM
Is the party over? I'm not done with my popcorn!

Yeah, it does appear to be over. With no comment on the actual number of existing kids, which was my particular point of doubt. Ah well, more popcorn for the next ridiculous thread!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 02, 2021, 11:49:03 AM
Moral and legal issues aside, why would any able-bodied person want to live on so little voluntarily? Be sure to educate your children well, so they can become like Tara Westover and write a best-selling memoir about how messed up their upbringing was.

$14,200 is a HUGE amount of money. I live in a beautiful 3 bed 2 bath home with a yard twice the size of all my neighbors for my kids to play in. We can walk within 2 minutes to parks, the library, groceries, banks.

With SNAP at $600 per month we have a hard time even spending all the money. I think SNAP is too generous. We eat steak and bacon everyday, even throw in the occasional lobster.

If you don't think that $14,200 is a lot of money, then you are an anti-mustachian SCHMUCK. My strategy covers all of my bills while my portfolio grows. I will be a multi multi millionaire by the time I'm as old as you.

Also, I'm not going to be told by a childless, cat lady, boomer how to educate my children.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 02, 2021, 11:59:49 AM
Oh man, $14k is just about what I pay in taxes. You’re welcome!
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: SeidBereit on January 02, 2021, 12:02:43 PM
Oh man, $14k is just about what I pay in taxes. You’re welcome!

Thank you @Sailor Sam. I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Harvesting the EITC, CTC, SNAP and Medicaid
Post by: arebelspy on January 02, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
Holy smokes, what a thread.

OP really needs to be more subtle if s/he wants to last as a troll anywhere.

Banned. Locking thread.

Thirding the recommendation for Educated. Very disturbing, Adventine, but worth it. Also I just friend requested you on GoodReads! :D

What was I doing? Oh yeah, ban hammer.

Cheers, all. Happy New Year!