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General Discussion => Share Your Badassity => Topic started by: Bakari on November 23, 2013, 11:23:40 AM

Title: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 23, 2013, 11:23:40 AM
Sounds like so much cliched scam, right?

I just started a 5th part time job (in addition to my handyman business, the bikeshop, the Coast Guard, and maintenance manager for my building).  I do as much or as little as I feel like, whenever I feel like, from my own bedroom.

Not everyone would want to do it though...
The one catch is your clients pretty much expect you to take your clothes off...

Yup.  I started doing paid webcam chatting.  Turns out thats a real thing, and you can make actual money from it.  There's no standards,  or interview; if you apply, and you're over 18, you get approved. 

As a guy, of course I mostly (but not exclusively) get gay guys.  As a straight guy, that is definitely a little weird, but on the other hand, these guys are so sweet!  I've never had an actual lover be so enthusiastically complimentary.  Definitely an ego boost. 
For the most part you are just casually chatting, anyone can join, its free for them.  And you stay clothed and do nothing explicit.  Only if someone decides to start the clock are you allowed to get into anything rated above 'R'.  Then it pays a dollar per minute, per client.  If 4 people are watching you at once, you're making $240 an hour! 

I've been bringing the computer to my gym, and webcasting my workouts.  Helps build the fan base, and at the same time it is extremely motivating in terms of getting me to workout harder and longer than I otherwise would.  Once I got over the creepiness, it is actually a lot of fun.  And I actually get paid real money for it.  It's crazy.  Then on top of that, I get a commission for anyone who signs up through me, so when I tell my friends, and they ask how I got into it, there's an affiliate link I can send them.  Now I just need to work on convincing them to do it with me, because there's much more income potential for couples than single guys.  That sounds like a reasonable excuse reason, doesn't it?
:P
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Jamesqf on November 23, 2013, 11:59:56 AM
Yeah, but the problem is that if I tried to do it, they'd pay me money to stop :-)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: cbr shadow on November 23, 2013, 12:21:29 PM
ha! I'd like to know how you got into this.  Also, does this only pay when "the clock starts" where you get $1 per minute, or is there a smaller amount of pay earlier?
Also for the rated R stuff, what's expected?  For the amount of time you put in, how much do you average per hour?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: footenote on November 23, 2013, 12:44:18 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that if I tried to do it, they'd pay me money to stop :-)
My thought exactly. : /
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: ShortInSeattle on November 23, 2013, 02:05:20 PM
I guess I'm stuck on the disconnect between you only get paid when it goes above an "R" rating but you don't do anything explicit.

Is this just a dirty-talk thing?  Nothing wrong with that IMO, I'm just curious what it actually involves.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: pka222 on November 23, 2013, 02:28:14 PM
Bakari-  you rock. What a awesome gig, if you're not modest that is.  One question- are you not worried that
 your image will start to show up on www.gaywebhost.com?
Have you made 240 an hour yet?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 23, 2013, 05:57:58 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that if I tried to do it, they'd pay me money to stop :-)

maybe, but people have the most random interests and fetishes.

ha! I'd like to know how you got into this.
ad on Craigslist


 
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Also, does this only pay when "the clock starts" where you get $1 per minute, or is there a smaller amount of pay earlier?
pay is zero if no one goes into "private" chat with you.  Until then you're just online in a public chat room (except they can all see your video image, and you can't see theirs)

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Also for the rated R stuff, what's expected?
in the public/free chat, there is no nudity allowed.  Beyond that, whatever you do or say is totally up to you.
in the private/paid chat, you are pretty much expected to strip at a minimum, and maybe... more.  Depends what the customer wants and what you are comfortable with.

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  For the amount of time you put in, how much do you average per hour?
don't really know, I just barely started.  I've probably put in 3-4 hours and made about $35, however there was a lot of technical stuff and paperwork and learning how it works, and then talking to people to develop a fan base.  And then much of the remaining time I was literally doing exactly what I would have been doing anyway, so it doesn't really count as "time put in"

I guess I'm stuck on the disconnect between you only get paid when it goes above an "R" rating but you don't do anything explicit.

Is this just a dirty-talk thing?  Nothing wrong with that IMO, I'm just curious what it actually involves.

You don't do anything explicit until they start paying you. 

Bakari-  you rock. What a awesome gig, if you're not modest that is.
in real life I am actually very modest.  This is like acting.  I get into my flamboyant role.  Its easier when its totally anonymous.

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One question- are you not worried that
 your image will start to show up on www.gaywebhost.com?
meh.  There are so many tens of thousands of people who have done or are doing something similar, I feel like the chances are slim.  Besides, in order for anyone who finds it to call me out for being on a porn site, they have to admit they were browsing said site.  I never plan to run for president, nor even apply to a traditional job ever again (if I can help it), so I doubt there is much way it can come back to haunt me.  Besides, I use a screen name.  Its just a funny coincidence that I happen to look exactly like _____ ______ but I swear, that's not me!
;)

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Have you made 240 an hour yet?

Alas, not yet.  But I just barely started (I've done it twice so far).  10 people have marked me as a "favorite".  Give it a little time...
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Rural on November 23, 2013, 06:05:40 PM
There's another poster on here doing something similar; the lady in South Korea. I can't remember her screen name. But she's talked about it before, and she seems to like it too. Not for me, but more power to those of you who can do well with it.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: nikki on November 23, 2013, 09:20:10 PM
There's another poster on here doing something similar; the lady in South Korea. I can't remember her screen name. But she's talked about it before, and she seems to like it too. Not for me, but more power to those of you who can do well with it.

It's me. :)

Which website are you using, Bakari? I like Chaturbate, but it sounds like you're using another site because you don't get paid unless you go private. Chaturbate has a tip-based system too so that anyone can just throw tokens at you for being cute and/or charming.

EDIT: I've gotten money while doing all sorts of things on cam I'd normally be doing, like cooking dinner, cleaning my apartment, and even reading books. I'm not at the point where I could do workouts on cam and make money--I'd probably scare everyone away and look ghastly.

EDIT EDIT: I cammed with my boyfriend a few times, and I'm not sure I earned more money with a partner than I do alone. It was fun, though. We didn't actually have sex on cam--just erm. well. All the rest. **suddenly feeling very shy about certain words in MMM forums**
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Argyle on November 23, 2013, 11:52:15 PM
I personally would be very wary about the fact that anyone can take those pictures of you, doing "whatever," and post them anywhere.  And you know how things proliferate and live forever on the internet.  If you can't foresee any situation in which that would be a problem, then no worries. 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Self-employed-swami on November 24, 2013, 04:04:27 AM
I guess I'm pretty sheltered, so I have a dumb question…

When you are chatting, are you actually talking to them?  Do they type to you, or can you hear them?

And kudos for being able to
1) be confident enough to do this, and
2) tell us about it here. 

I'm way to squeamish to even consider doing something like this, even if I could guarantee that no one I knew would ever see it.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 24, 2013, 09:44:22 AM
There's another poster on here doing something similar; the lady in South Korea. I can't remember her screen name. But she's talked about it before, and she seems to like it too. Not for me, but more power to those of you who can do well with it.

It's me. :)

Which website are you using, Bakari? I like Chaturbate, but it sounds like you're using another site because you don't get paid unless you go private. Chaturbate has a tip-based system too so that anyone can just throw tokens at you for being cute and/or charming.

Streammate, which includes I-camz, 429cams, Camcrush, Epic cams, and a bunch of other subsites.
They also have a tip based system in addition to private chat.  I almost signed up for chaturbate, but they rejected the first ID scan I sent, and streamate accepted it, so I just went with what took less work.

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EDIT EDIT: I cammed with my boyfriend a few times, and I'm not sure I earned more money with a partner than I do alone. It was fun, though. We didn't actually have sex on cam--just erm. well. All the rest. **suddenly feeling very shy about certain words in MMM forums**
I think in order to see the difference you'd have to log-on as a couple regularly and build a couple fan-base.  And have sex on cam.  Also, you probably wouldn't see as big a difference as I would, as straight males are the biggest user base.

I personally would be very wary about the fact that anyone can take those pictures of you, doing "whatever," and post them anywhere.  And you know how things proliferate and live forever on the internet.  If you can't foresee any situation in which that would be a problem, then no worries. 

Not that this paranoia doesn't occur to me, it just seems unrealistic.
1) there are literally millions of xxx photos on the internet.  maybe 10s or 100s of millions.  The chances anyone recognizes me are very slim.
2) if someone was motivated to damage your reputation specifically, a good photoshopper could turn any photo of you inappropriate anyway
3) even if someone did find a picture of me on the internet, what exactly would be the negative consequences?  Its not like I'm claiming to be "pure" or "innocent".  If I was a priest, sure, or a politician in a red state. 

I guess I'm pretty sheltered, so I have a dumb question…

When you are chatting, are you actually talking to them?  Do they type to you, or can you hear them?

They type to me, I can type back or just answer.  The model/employee (me) can choose whether they can hear audio, (you can mute the mike) but you get listed higher in search results if you leave it on (because customers like it better).
Plus that way you don't have to stay at the keyboard, you can just respond to their messages verbally.
And that's not such a dumb question to me, I wouldn't have known the answer 4 days ago

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And kudos for being able to
1) be confident enough to do this, and
2) tell us about it here. 
1) kind of works both ways.  I've been thinking about it for years and just built up the nerve.  Its like when people say "I wish I was fit enough to bike to work" - you get the ability to do it by doing it
2) ha!  I tell you here because I don't know any of yall, and you don't know me!  I'm not telling me many people in the real world (aside from those few who might be into trying it themselves)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: nikki on November 24, 2013, 09:02:04 PM

Streammate, which includes I-camz, 429cams, Camcrush, Epic cams, and a bunch of other subsites.
They also have a tip based system in addition to private chat.  I almost signed up for chaturbate, but they rejected the first ID scan I sent, and streamate accepted it, so I just went with what took less work.


Gotcha. If Streammate ever becomes a butt, give Chaturbate a try again (and ahem... how about using my affiliate code? shameless :p )! It has crazy high traffic compared to other sites I've worked on.

Not that this paranoia doesn't occur to me, it just seems unrealistic.
1) there are literally millions of xxx photos on the internet.  maybe 10s or 100s of millions.  The chances anyone recognizes me are very slim.
2) if someone was motivated to damage your reputation specifically, a good photoshopper could turn any photo of you inappropriate anyway
3) even if someone did find a picture of me on the internet, what exactly would be the negative consequences?  Its not like I'm claiming to be "pure" or "innocent".  If I was a priest, sure, or a politician in a red state. 

In response to 1) a former coworker has indeed found me online before. His response? "I had to wait a long time, but I finally get to see you naked." ....yikes!


Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Osprey on November 25, 2013, 02:58:06 AM
This seems like a very sensible way to make the $$. It also cuts down on exploitation - as I understand it you can stop/switch off whenever you want? And there's no immediate physical threat.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Cromacster on November 25, 2013, 06:31:53 AM
Intersting stuff.  I know MMM would never post this under his jobs that can make 50k without a degree, but I wondered when I would see this come up in the forums.  I know there are some people that make a killing on this (400+ a day)

Good luck to your new venture Bakari!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Sebastian on November 25, 2013, 07:11:15 AM
I've tried this before. It's pretty damn awkward to anyone out there interested in doing this.

If you are cool with beating your meat in front of dudes it's a pretty lucrative market that can make you some coin. However this is how it'd normally go for me..

Person starts chatting with me... we go in the "private" room I'd start getting nervous/weirded out because the dudes write some rouchy shit. Then I can't get hard.. so when they want to see the goods it's something along the lines of "...you have a small dick??" then I try explaining "wait no I'm just nervous and..." *door slams* they've left.

Damn it!

That's happened like two or three times. So just a heads up.. if you can't get "hard" in front of strangers... good luck my friends!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 25, 2013, 10:08:32 AM
I've tried this before. It's pretty damn awkward to anyone out there interested in doing this.

If you are cool with beating your meat in front of dudes it's a pretty lucrative market that can make you some coin. However this is how it'd normally go for me..

Person starts chatting with me... we go in the "private" room I'd start getting nervous/weirded out because the dudes write some rouchy shit. Then I can't get hard.. so when they want to see the goods it's something along the lines of "...you have a small dick??" then I try explaining "wait no I'm just nervous and..." *door slams* they've left.

Damn it!

That's happened like two or three times. So just a heads up.. if you can't get "hard" in front of strangers... good luck my friends!

yup
That's more or less how my first two went.  The gym thing helps, more room to back up away from camera, means they can fill in more details with imagination, and its easier to fake.  And an excuse to not see what they write (I'm 1/2 across the room), so I can fill the screen with -erhm - images I enjoy.  I also have some other tricks planned (ordered), we'll see how that goes...
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: fiveoh on November 25, 2013, 10:41:04 AM
I couldn't do this but keep us updated on how much $$$ you make, I'm really curious. 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: jrhampt on November 25, 2013, 10:48:58 AM
Interesting.  If webcamming had been more widespread when I was in my twenties, I probably would have tried this.  As it was, I did a variety of "spokesmodel" stuff and other "modeling" which involved varying degrees of undress and helped me get through college and some really lean years in my early twenties.  I think hourly pay ranged from $25 an hour or so for spokesmodel liquor promotions to over $100/hr for the rest, and this was over 10 years ago.  This seems much safer, although I was lucky enough to mostly avoid any real creeps.  It did lead to some embarassing situations when my family found a website online which linked to photos of me.  At my age, I'm still in shape but past the more lucrative years of my life of doing this, and my day job pays well over $50/hr anyway.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Kriegsspiel on November 28, 2013, 07:15:25 PM
Seth, tell 'em you're a grow-er, not a show-er.

Do you think anyone transitioned to straight up porn from this? I'd assume that most porn stars just move to Porn Valley and go to apply at a porn company, but since creating your own website seems doable nowadays, I wonder if you could be "discovered" through this? Hmmm.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: EK on November 28, 2013, 07:59:43 PM
Hmm.  This thread has got me considering this.  Mentioned it to my husband... he didn't seem super keen on it though so we'll see.  It seems easier to get started than I would have thought and it could be fun.  Plus good motivation to exercise!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: ichangedmyname on November 28, 2013, 09:40:08 PM
I wanted to this before but that was 40 lbs ago LOL
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: pom on November 29, 2013, 07:10:59 AM
A quick question, is it only gay men or are there a few women watching? Just curious.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on November 29, 2013, 07:52:12 AM
This idea doesn't sit right.

     I understand from a business perspective, your body is an asset if it can make you money, especially while doing something you are going to do already (the Gym workouts), then why not. Its the same idea as renting our your car or house when you don't need them.

     Then the big 'but' sinks in. It starts deep down in the awkward part of my body and then makes it to my brain as "But getting naked for strangers is bad?". However I can understand that this is mostly a cultural perspective and move on.

     Next the "Would you let your son or daughter do this to make money?" gets asked. I'm not talking about your high school children, I am talking about the older ones. Does the idea of them getting looked at and visually used by strangers not make you feel pity and disgust? Should you not feel the same for yourself? However maybe this is just the way I am looking at it, maybe the pity should be for the people watching, either way... I have major reservation on the benefits to society of this type of activity.

Then I start getting philosophical. I think of the Categorical Imperative by Immanuel Kant.

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. -Immanuel Kant   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

     The simplest example of this I can give is, to determine if something is 'moral' or a good thing to do, we must apply it to everyone. First example if I want to know if killing is moral or good I say "What if everyone killed?" Well that would obviously be bad so we conclude killing is bad. However if I want to know if giving to charity is good then I ask "What if everyone gave to charity?" Well that would obviously be good. Moving on.

We then must ask. "What if everyone got naked for strangers online via webcams?"

There are gaping wholes in this philosophical argument so I'll keep going.

     We should bring this back to Money, since that is the main point of these forums (Not the morality of a given job etc). I then start to think of depreciation of assets. Arguably our most valuable and important asset is our bodies. We use them everyday to earn a return. Like out cars they depreciate over time. We get older and less able to complete our tasks, we lose skills in one area while maybe gaining them in another area, our job security (the money making potential of our bodies) relies on our ability to "get the next gig" (To quote Dave Ramsey) . How we use our bodies determines how our bodies as an asset depreciate over time. Like a car that has to drive stop and go traffic everyday, if you use our bodies inefficiently then it depreciates in value quicker. Also our ability to get work changes depending on how we maintain our skills and happiness. I would then argue that while easy money can be made through the web cam, the potential impact to future marketability, and personal happiness far outweighs the benefit. The risk to the most important asset is very high. The return does not make financial sense. 

     I would like to end this very long winded post by saying, these are just my reactions. I am not trying to say your wrong, or immoral, this is not a discussion on religion. But these are the reasons that came to mind as to why I wouldn't try something like this and I would be very interested in others opinions.   
 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on November 29, 2013, 08:32:30 AM
I don't have any objection to you doing this, but it is not what I would want for my kids.  I don't want them to feel that it is okay to receive or pay money for sex. My reasons are not really well articulated but they go something like this:

1. Those images are out of your control once online.
2. You become an active part of an industry which has a fine line between consent and exploitation.  The line is too fine for me to want anything to do with it.
3. Sexual objectification and superficial relationships cause significant problems in society and interpersonal relationships.  I would not want my kids making it a job.
4. Many people would not be okay with it and it reduces your pool of prospective partners in real life who hold these values.

Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 29, 2013, 05:01:17 PM

I couldn't do this but keep us updated on how much $$$ you make, I'm really curious. 

I doubt it will be much, I don't put in the time

Seth, tell 'em you're a grow-er, not a show-er.

Do you think anyone transitioned to straight up porn from this? I'd assume that most porn stars just move to Porn Valley and go to apply at a porn company, but since creating your own website seems doable nowadays, I wonder if you could be "discovered" through this? Hmmm.

The problem Seth and I have found is not growing at the appropriate time.

Yes, people have definitely transitioned.  I just read an article that talks about how many have transitioned in the other direction.  Just like the internet is making newspapers obsolete, the porn industry is having to adapt to the two way connection of webcamming, and a lot of porn starts and production studios are trying to get on the bandwagon.


Hmm.  This thread has got me considering this.

http://www.i-camz.com/agent/model.php?agent=4494 (http://www.i-camz.com/agent/model.php?agent=4494)

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  Mentioned it to my husband... he didn't seem super keen on it though so we'll see.  It seems easier to get started than I would have thought and it could be fun.  Plus good motivation to exercise!

Ridiculously easy, and surprisingly fun.  And I am definitely working out much harder (of course, my motivation is live)

A quick question, is it only gay men or are there a few women watching? Just curious.

There are a few women.  (although for all I know, some of those could be gay guys pretending to be women so that I am more enthusiastic - some gay guys prefer watching straight men for some reason)



This idea doesn't sit right.
ah, yes, I was waiting for this.  The fun deep philosophical part.  That's why I love this forum.

   
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  I understand from a business perspective, your body is an asset if it can make you money, especially while doing something you are going to do already (the Gym workouts), then why not. Its the same idea as renting our your car or house when you don't need them.
I think of it as being the same as ANY employment.  You are renting the use of your hands and mind to your employer/clients, because they are paying you to do something that you wouldn't be doing otherwise.  If you, say, write code, you are using your body - your hands - to type for someone else, and they are paying you for it.  You are renting your body.  A masseuse or physical therapist, or even a doctor, is using their body to touch other people in a way that makes them feel better, and getting paid for it. 
I believe the only thing that separates literally any job from prostitution is moralizing against unsanctioned sex.
I'm not suggesting that this particular critique, or Totoro personally, is using the top-down rule driven "morality" of religion, but I think that ultimately this entire concept originates from attempts by religious and civil authorities to control individuals by controlling sexuality.  It stems from a complex societies need to have a system of property and power distribution across generations which requires knowledge of paternity, which, thousands of years before birth control, could only be achieved by banning all sex outside of (religious or government sanctioned) marriage.  Its been driven into the collective cultural consciousness for so many generations that now even secular humanists tend to accept the premise without question, much as a fish doesn't notice the water it's swimming in.

I won't go to much further than that, I've written about it extensively: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-oldest-profession.html (http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-oldest-profession.html)


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     Then the big 'but' sinks in. It starts deep down in the awkward part of my body and then makes it to my brain as "But getting naked for strangers is bad?". However I can understand that this is mostly a cultural perspective and move on.

     Next the "Would you let your son or daughter do this to make money?" gets asked. I'm not talking about your high school children, I am talking about the older ones.

I can't say this with absolute authority, since I don't have any, but yes.  The only reason I'd discourage my (hypothetical, future) kids under 18 is because of the legal ramifications, not for any moral ones.
My mother was always upfront and straight forward with us about sex, and I think it was really good for us.  She was honest and thorough - she told us about the emotional component, and we saw actual porn as part of (home) sex-ed.  We learned about birth control and STDs, and we learned about her personal experiences.  We were also exposed to LGBT culture, with all its subverting of gender norms and other cultural assumptions.
So I never had any of the hang-ups or prejudices so many Americans seem to around both sexuality and gender, (and unlike most of my peers, I was a virgin until I was 21 - I never learned to "properly" objectify women and chase sex)
I honestly feel that NOT exposing children to sexuality is very, very bad for them.

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Does the idea of them getting looked at and visually used by strangers not make you feel pity and disgust?
I don't think getting looked at is being "used".  Of course I've heard it before, but I Really can't wrap my head around it at all.
If, for example, a woman is sunbathing on a beach, and some guy is in a hotel above the beach with binoculars enjoying her, and she doesn't even know he is there, this doesn't affect her in any way.  How can someone be "visually used"?  That doesn't mean anything! Its not even like prostitution (or any job, for that matter), because it doesn't interfere with your life.

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Should you not feel the same for yourself? However maybe this is just the way I am looking at it, maybe the pity should be for the people watching, 
HA!  That I do have!!! Why the hell are people paying for this?  Its kind of sad and pathetic.  If you just want to get off, there is SO much porn online for free.  If you want actual human contact, you don't even get to touch a web cam model.  But I understand, its not always so easy to find a real life lover.

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either way... I have major reservation on the benefits to society of this type of activity.
The same could be said about chocolate cake, or amusement parks, or Angry Birds, or any of millions of things whose "only" benefit is causing short-term pleasure in the person buying the experience. 
On the one hand, there is no substance or meaning behind moment-to-moment pleasures.  On the other hand, life is nothing but a collection of moments, and what exactly is the purpose of building a "better" future if its one without enjoyment?
This dual-truth is why Mustashianism is not the same as asceticism.  Its not avoiding consumption for the pure sake of self-denial, its avoiding that consumption which doesn't provide much pleasure anyway.  As an economist would point out, the benefit is demonstrated by the fact that people are willing to pay for it.  We don't get to make judgements about what is beneficial for other people.

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Then I start getting philosophical. I think of the Categorical Imperative by Immanuel Kant.

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. -Immanuel Kant   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

     The simplest example of this I can give is, to determine if something is 'moral' or a good thing to do, we must apply it to everyone. First example if I want to know if killing is moral or good I say "What if everyone killed?" Well that would obviously be bad so we conclude killing is bad. However if I want to know if giving to charity is good then I ask "What if everyone gave to charity?" Well that would obviously be good. Moving on.
I disagree with Immanuel Kant (and not only on this).
It is good for one person to be a fire fighter.  It would be bad if everyone was.  It is good if one half of a couple is a masocist and the other half is a sadist.  It would be bad if both were one or the other.  It is very very good that some humans are female, but it would be bad if everyone was.

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We then must ask. "What if everyone got naked for strangers online via webcams?"
Then we would have a much healthier more well adjusted society in which nudity was a non-issue and sexuality was a much smaller one.  There would still be the complications surrounding how sex affects emotional connection (and vice versa), there would still be sexual jealousy among spouses, there would still be STDs and unwanted pregnancies (although fewer of both), and there would still occasionally be sexual harassment and assault - but these would be overwhelmingly less).  There would be much less sex crimes of all kinds (because much of them would cease to be crimes, and because there would be fewer repressed people who acted out), less fetishes, much much less rape, less sexism, less rigid gender roles - and women would be able to be much more comfortable on a hot day.
You don't have to take my word for it as a hypothetical - there is a clear anthropological correlation between how restrictive a society is with its rules around sex and how much sexism and sexual violence etc there is.   Even just within the US there is a obvious correlation between a lack of real sex-ed in schools and high rates of teen pregnancy.
Trying to force people to be asexual when its one of the two most basic imperatives of all multi-cellular life works exactly as well as it would if we tried to repress the other one (seeking out and eating food) - i.e. not at all

On the other hand, then no one could make money from webcamming, so everything is a trade-off ;P


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     We should bring this back to Money, since that is the main point of these forums (Not the morality of a given job etc). I then start to think of depreciation of assets. Arguably our most valuable and important asset is our bodies. We use them everyday to earn a return. Like out cars they depreciate over time. We get older and less able to complete our tasks, we lose skills in one area while maybe gaining them in another area, our job security (the money making potential of our bodies) relies on our ability to "get the next gig" (To quote Dave Ramsey) .
How we use our bodies determines how our bodies as an asset depreciate over time. Like a car that has to drive stop and go traffic everyday, if you use our bodies inefficiently then it depreciates in value quicker.
Sure.  But there is a major difference between the body asset and object assets.  A car that is used a lot is worth less for its age.  But a human who works out every day instead of resting in the garage of a sofa is more valuable and useful as it ages.
This applies, obviously, to physical work - if you exercise you will be stronger than if you don't.  But it also applies to the mind - ongoing cognitive challenge and learning actually makes us smarter.  And it applies to sex too.  I have no evidence to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that if men had more sex during middle age that there would be a lot less viagra sold.  Its like anything else: use it or lose it.

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Also our ability to get work changes depending on how we maintain our skills and happiness. I would then argue that while easy money can be made through the web cam, the potential impact to future marketability,
I guess it may depend heavily on your local community and your industry.
Some primary school teachers get fired for it, some win their appeals to the school board or in court.  I could see priests and pastors and politicians having problems.  What other industries would this be relevant to?  There is no reason you would have to disclose that you did it to a prospective employer, and, outside of teaching, you would almost certainly win a wrongful termination suit if someone tried to fire you for it if they happened to find out.

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and personal happiness
???

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far outweighs the benefit. The risk to the most important asset is very high. The return does not make financial sense. 

     I would like to end this very long winded post by saying, these are just my reactions. I am not trying to say your wrong, or immoral, this is not a discussion on religion. But these are the reasons that came to mind as to why I wouldn't try something like this and I would be very interested in others opinions.

I didn't take it as a personal attack, but rather as an opportunity to talk more in depth about something I actually feel pretty strongly about (our societies moralizing of sexuality).
Nothing on the MMM boards ever seems like a personal attack.  That's why I like it so much here.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on November 30, 2013, 10:00:10 PM
I don't have any objection to you doing this, but it is not what I would want for my kids.  I don't want them to feel that it is okay to receive or pay money for sex. My reasons are not really well articulated but they go something like this:

1. Those images are out of your control once online.
2. You become an active part of an industry which has a fine line between consent and exploitation.  The line is too fine for me to want anything to do with it.
3. Sexual objectification and superficial relationships cause significant problems in society and interpersonal relationships.  I would not want my kids making it a job.
4. Many people would not be okay with it and it reduces your pool of prospective partners in real life who hold these values.

1) True, but same goes for everything we write in these forums, post to facebook, pictures that are taken every time we go out in public.  I feel there's a fine line sometimes between cautious privacy keeping and paranoia

2) I think this is much much less true than most people assume.  This isn't my first time dealing with the industry from the inside, both as participant and as friend/escort.  It doesn't match the stereotypes at all.  And camming, it may be technically part of the porn "industry" in the technical sense, but it is totally removed from the traditional kind. 
There is really no possible way for the producers to get models coercively, no matter how loosely you define that term.  The model has to proactively sign up, and then they work from their own home, never actually meeting the "boss"/"producer".  Not only is it not supporting the amateur producer who may work in a questionable semi-legal grey place where most of the exploitation occurs, the whole live cam industry is undermining traditional porn and putting studios out of business.

3) Is there any actual concrete evidence for this?  The only effect the rise of internet porn has had on society which is actually supported by a long-term statistical trend that I am aware of is a massive drop in rape and sexual assault.  I think it would be challenging to support the idea that sexual objectification began with the advent of pornography.  And, again, even if it were, camming is most likely to reverse it, as 1) it is a two-way communication, and 2) its random "real" people, not supermodel types.

4) I wouldn't be interested in being partners with those people, so I'm ok with that.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 01, 2013, 01:36:32 AM
1. To characterize pornographic images of your genitalia you are selling for money in remotely the same realm as a facebook picture of my dog and allude to paranoia about what gets out there in the internet may make sense to you but does not to me.

2.  I have no first hand experience either purchasing sexual services or offering them for sale. I expect that we have different versions of sexual exploitation.  Yours makes these activities acceptable to you.  Mine does not make them acceptable to me.

3. The internet became commonly available 1999.  The incidence of reported rape has declined 88% since 1973.  The decline has been rapid and began prior to the availability of camming.  There are a number of theories about this, most prevalent being that the women's movement and resulting social changes have had an impact on the acceptability of rape and violence against women.  Another theory is that DNA evidence increased the rate of conviction and risk.  The rate of violent crime having nothing to do with sexual assault has dropped similarly. Demographics and incarceration rates are often cited as factors but a large drop definitely occurred prior to 1999.

The number of sexual abuse cases substantiated by child protective service (CPS) agencies in the US dropped a remarkable and steady 40 percent in total between 1992 and 2000: a period when child pornography was not commonly available online.

4.  Yes, I recognize that you are looking for a partner who is compatible with you.  My point was I would not want this limitation for my children as there are a whole load of people out there in the world that would not be comfortable with it - many of them women.

I suppose the bottom line is that I do believe that this is potentially destructive behaviour and could be lacking in ethical self-dignity, to quote a Buddhist concept.  For me, doing this for $35 and for fun based on an odd academic analysis as to why it should be just fine in an ideal world, combined with the taking sex for money without affection, love, concern, or comfort, could lead one blindly down a self-harming path.

Now, you can brush this all off as entrenched viewpoints of the church and state, but my view is this is anything but "easy money" for many people.   Easy money often comes with a big price.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Emilyngh on December 01, 2013, 07:47:34 AM
Thanks for being open enough to post this.   To me the topic is most interesting in that it brings in a new angle to examine what, imo, is at the heart of MMM: aligning our finances with our values.


It seems to me that many (myself included) are much more willing to examine the spending/values side of this than the earning/values.    I agree that the act of working for someone else for money is a form of prostitution.   I mean, how many people had their employer tell them that they had to do some stupid bullshit on Thanksgiving that cut into their family time?   How many felt obligated to check their work email?   People often basically sell their free will and mental energy for 40+ years.    To me, that's much more of a big deal than choosing to engage in sexual acts that are streamed online.    And yet, not only is the former not taboo, it's in many ways celebrated.


With that said, in my current life, I won't be looking into such websites.   Part of this is because I do have a dayjob I like that could be compromised, part of it is because I wouldn't want to deal with the guilt of feeling like an unfit mother (logical or not), and part of it is b/c I'm done selling myself in any similar way.    I'm done answering email at home; I'm done keeping my opinions to myself at work if I don't want to; I'm done trying to make others happy at work doing something I don't find important; I'm done being in the office unless I've made a commitment to meet someone or think it'll be productive; and so I'm not reversing this trend by selling myself in another way.    If my circumstances change enough though, my current list of acceptable activities for money could change.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 01, 2013, 08:59:17 AM
1. To characterize pornographic images of your genitalia you are selling for money in remotely the same realm as a facebook picture of my dog...
2.  I have no first hand experience either purchasing sexual services or offering them for sale. I expect that we have different versions of sexual exploitation...
3. The internet became commonly available 1999.  The incidence of reported rape has declined 88% since 1973. .....

I suppose the bottom line is that I do believe that this is potentially destructive behaviour and could be lacking in ethical self-dignity, to quote a Buddhist concept.  For me, doing this for $35 and for fun based on an odd academic analysis as to why it should be just fine in an ideal world, combined with the taking sex for money without affection, love, concern, or comfort, could lead one blindly down a self-harming path.

Now, you can brush this all off as entrenched viewpoints of the church and state, but my view is this is anything but "easy money" for many people.   Easy money often comes with a big price.

Maybe my first in-depth analysis was way too long.  I don't want to repeat stuff though.
In order for naked pictures to be qualitatively different from non-naked, there has to be assumption of some sort of special status of sex.  I would consider love far more personal and intimate, yet we have no problems with posting pictures of a wedding or a romantic dinner.  We have no problems with pictures of us eating, another biological activity.

A anarcho-communist would say ANY job you have where someone gives you money to do something is exploitation.  A libertarian would point out that any voluntary exchange between free adults is, well, voluntary, that as long as there are no tricks or secrets it isn't exploitative.

Porn didn't become accessible for the first time with the internet.  It became cheap and convenient from the privacy of home with the advent of the VCR.  Which came into popular widespread use in the early 1970s.  Correlation may not be proof of causation, but the time analysis does not contradict this theory.
Besides, my larger question was: is there any evidence to state that relationships have gotten less meaningful?

I don't understand the term "taking sex".  There is no actual physical contact with anyone.  Its not actual prostitution.  Also, I'm sure I'm understanding it wrong, but it almost sounds like you are implying that outside of the internet or sex workers, that every act of sex is in the context of a loving committed relationship.  Casual sex wasn't invented in the past few decades.  Its just that in the past it was done in secret, and or young people proposed (or accepted) marriage solely as an excuse to have access to sex.  Which doesn't strike me as encouraging the most meaningful relationships.


If anyone didn't want to do this, I can understand that.  There are lots of jobs I wouldn't accept at any price.  But I find a huge difference between "this is anything but "easy money" for many people" or 'I personally wouldn't be comfortable with it" and suggesting it causes "significant problems in society" or "potentially destructive behaviour and could be lacking in ethical self-dignity".
One is a personal subjective preference, the other is moralizing.  I find an extremely fine line between the latter, and, for example, slut-shaming.

We may not live in an idealized world, but I believe that living one's life to the expectations of the ideal world is one way to help move us in that direction.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: dragoncar on December 01, 2013, 12:34:32 PM
I can't believe my cousin made $2846 working from home on her computer!  For more information, visit Bakari's workout chat room :-)

Seriously, it sounded cool until I considered the amount of unpaid effort you are putting in.  Keep us updated on the returns once you build a fan base.  You can find people looking for anything on the internet.  Maybe someone will pay me to critique their spending in an internet chat room for $1/min
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 01, 2013, 08:32:08 PM
Yes naked pornographic images of my body would be considered as private and personal and different than a photo of my dog.  I would not be alone in that view but your view of your body is yours and you would be in a minority but not alone.  I'm not changing my view or spending a lot of time on it because it doesn't register for me as a debate topic but a choice - and I'm not telling you to change yours. I'm responding to the question of whether I'd be ok with my kids doing this. You would I wouldn't - I set my reasons out.

I do not believe the VCR and VHS porn caused the drop in sexual assault and violent crime.  Porn was available long before then in mag form - easy and cheap. Internet porn is a whole different league of cheap and accessible so the correlation should be magnified accordingly - which it is not.  Sex for money has always been there - I don't want to participate in that and you do. You are reading moral judgment and I cld do the same with your statements re you think everyone should hold your views because they are better.  In reality these are choices both of our perspectives have limited influence outside our immediate circle.  I am focused on what makes people I care about happier and I tend to evaluate life choices this way.

And yes you are misunderstanding me.  Sex is what it is - so?  For my children I would not like them look at masturbating on camera to strangers for money as an easy way to make money.  I believe it to be a potentially self destructive behaviour which places life focus in a place not likely to create a path leading to long lasting happiness. 

I agree you could be different. I speak based on my observations of friends, family and, in particular, of the happiest people and couples I know.  Your views don't alter mine a bit because my experiences are different and I have had enough experience to be on ground I find firm for myself.

I have reviewed and researched similar concepts from an academic point of view and I saw the appeal of your position when I was 25.  Unfortunately, it did not stand the test of time and experience for me so I won't promote that with my kids.  Your choices might lead to a different end result. We all get to live with our values so it a good to make sure they truly fit with head and heart.

Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: grandcanyon on December 01, 2013, 08:35:37 PM
I would mostly be concerned about it coming back to haunt you when you get older. You can almost guarantee someone is recording it and putting it up on the internet. Say you're 45 - 50 and you're no longer doing this and then you have a wife and kids with a decent job and you tell the wrong person or someone finds out and then all of a sudden your kids will be harassed as having the daddy that pounded his pud in front of guys for a few bucks.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: arebelspy on December 01, 2013, 08:40:39 PM
I would mostly be concerned about it coming back to haunt you when you get older. You can almost guarantee someone is recording it and putting it up on the internet. Say you're 45 - 50 and you're no longer doing this and then you have a wife and kids with a decent job and you tell the wrong person or someone finds out and then all of a sudden your kids will be harassed as having the daddy that pounded his pud in front of guys for a few bucks.

The whole point of being FI is being able to tell anyone who cares about it to pound sand.

And random pictures that would have to be screencapped and saved from a webcam show that are 15+ years old?  I'd put the odds of that at much less than winning the lottery.

I applaud you, Bakari, and agree with basically everything you've posted in this thread.

Thanks for challenging the status quo on yet another topic.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: grandcanyon on December 01, 2013, 09:31:04 PM
It would be easy for you, I or him to tell someone to go pound sand. It could be different for the wife and kids.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: SomeYoungGuy on December 01, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Like video games, this seems to me like an exploit on the human brain.  Of course you can make money if you bypass effort and self preservation, and what will you spend your ill-gotten money on?  Maybe this is the end of money, in a generation of technology, where bandwidth makes any experience available but people become too lazy to make food and shelter and medicine...  Yeah, I'm silly for 'yelling at the kids on my lawn' today, but I can kinda understand those geezers now...
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: arebelspy on December 01, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
and what will you spend your ill-gotten money on?

Hah.  Thanks for the laugh this evening.

I personally get most of my ill-gotten money from indoctrinating children.

I'd sleep just as well if it came from flaunting my body for people willing to pay to see it.  I'd just be a lot poorer, were that the case.  ;)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Cromacster on December 02, 2013, 07:10:47 AM
I agree you could be different. I speak based on my observations of friends, family and, in particular, of the happiest people and couples I know.  Your views don't alter mine a bit because my experiences are different and I have had enough experience to be on ground I find firm for myself.

I'm not questioning your feelings about the topic.  But whenever people say something about experience from other people it piques my interest.  With this statement it makes it seem like you have intimate details about other couples sexuality.  Is this the case?

The only reason I bring this up, is because many people look down upon swinging, sexual open relationships, cam'ing, or otherwise sexual "deviant" behavior.  This "looking down-upon view" could stem from many things so we don't need to get into that, Bakari sort of touched on it with his slut shaming statement.

The reality is that many individuals, couples, your kids are involved or interested in the above stated "deviant" behaviors.  Potentially the couples that you know that are the happiest people you know are into some of those things, but are just not open about it (or maybe they are and that is why you know they are the happiest).

There is a lot that goes on behind closed doors in peoples lives that you don't know about. 

Just food for thought
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 09:07:28 AM
Like video games, this seems to me like an exploit on the human brain.  Of course you can make money if you bypass effort and self preservation, and what will you spend your ill-gotten money on?  Maybe this is the end of money, in a generation of technology, where bandwidth makes any experience available but people become too lazy to make food and shelter and medicine...  Yeah, I'm silly for 'yelling at the kids on my lawn' today, but I can kinda understand those geezers now...

It seems like you are conflating the model with the viewer.  The viewer is perhaps being too lazy to go out on real dates - although they could also be too old/ugly/disabled to find something as hot and steamy as they want, they could be in a committed partnership with someone who isn't fulfilling their needs, they could be gay in a community where being gay isn't acceptable and finding a real life partner is not just challenging but literally dangerous.
Yes, camming, porn, and plain old no-technology-needed masturbation ARE an exploit of the human brain - just like all processed and prepared food, all forms of entertainment, adoption, social media, amusement park rides... everything "artificial", or human made which causes pleasure.
We were designed to hunt large game and gather nuts, roots, fruits and vegetables on the savannahs of Africa.  Ever since we invented fire and clothing, we have been using technology to try to improve our comfort and increase happiness.
Is it a bad thing that we can create food that tastes better than anything that grows naturally?

And it really isn't the either/or you are implying.  Internet based porn makes people stop wanting real life relationships no less than masturbation (which predates humans) makes people stop wanting real life sex.  Just like a delicious dessert doesn't stop people from wanting a more balanced savory meal with protein and vitamins sometimes.

And the "end of money" comment?  I didn't get that at all.  In a wealthy consumerist society, a pretty huge percentage of financial transactions are about laziness, comfort, and pleasure, not about effort and self-preservation.
One half of the financial independence equation is not wasting money.  So none of us will be signing up to view other people's cam anytime soon.
The other half is making your money work for you - which in nearly every case means on some level or another taking advantage of the fact that other people are still willing waste money on laziness and comfort.  You can rent a house to someone because they didn't have the self-discipline to build a down payment and good credit to buy their own.  You can profit from owning an ATM because people are too lazy to find their own bank atm to avoid a $3 charge.  The stock market depends of the masses taking the easy convenient route of shopping at the big box nationwide chain store.  This doesn't spell the end of money, money depends on it.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 02, 2013, 11:14:54 AM
Yes, I do have intimate details of the sexual lives of my close friends and I do believe they have quite a lot of information about the values and examples their parents provided to them.

I may not agree that masturbating online for money is easy and fun and something my kids should be encouraged to do, but that doesn't mean I have problems talking about sex with people I'm close too.

I do have also friends who have engaged in all sorts of what you refer to as "deviant" behaviour.  Having hit our 40s now and many of us having kids, I would say that these behaviours are not as prevalent.     

My observations have lead me to conclude that easy and fun sex for money is not necessarily easy and fun in the long term and the happiest people I know are ones with strong ties to many folks and strong family bonds.  They are also the ones who invested their time and effort in maintaining contact and creating value for everyone.  They don't necessarily have a lot of money, but their focus is on love, comfort and happiness of others and it comes back to them in spades.

Now this is likely not true for everyone.  People don't all have the same motivation.  Some people, like me and all of my closest friends, are motivated by relationship rather than novel experience and we likely hang out together because we feel good together.  I would expect that it will be the same for my kids as they already exhibit this trait. 

For people for whom feelings are a primary motivator I would expect that following Bakari's path here would be a letdown and leave them feeling pretty crummy.  For people who are motivated by a combination of thinking and sensation, it might in fact be quite fun.  If you can live primarily in your head all sorts of things could be interesting experiments, subject to your well thought ethical limits.  If you live primary in your sensations you might be okay without a well thought out set of ethical limits.

The thing is, that for me, my thinking is secondary to emotions, except in work.  There are a lot of people out there who are similarly driven by emotional connection.  Separate and apart from the moral judgment of others, there is an issue of whether behaviour matches internal motivation and values.  It may take time to sort this out, it did for me.  I would dislike to have someone read Bakari's post on fun and easy money from home without some alternate perspective.

My view is that intellectual analysis only gets you so far, and you can get really off track based on an ideal vision.  Yes, there are pluses to this because it can promote needed social change, but there are negatives when ideal meets real and the ideal was based on faulty logic or missing data.  Communism is perhaps a good example of this.     
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 02, 2013, 11:50:09 AM
Ok I haven't read every word that's above. Sorry. I will try to get through it. But I just wanted to make another comment.

There are a group of people who don't see the web cam stuff as sex. And there are a group of people who see it as sexual stuff and therefore lump it in with sex.

I would be in the second group.

I see sex as serving two important roles, New Humans and building the relationship between two people. When not done with one of those two things in mind then I see it as not really being use properly and therefore its being abused. Since I lump it all together that's why I see the web cam stuff as not a good idea.

So my question/comment is should all explicit sexual stuff be lumped together (not just kissing etc)? 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 12:59:35 PM
the happiest people I know are ones with strong ties to many folks and strong family bonds.  They are also the ones who invested their time and effort in maintaining contact and creating value for everyone.  They don't necessarily have a lot of money, but their focus is on love, comfort and happiness of others and it comes back to them in spades.

Now this is likely not true for everyone.  People don't all have the same motivation.  Some people, like me and all of my closest friends, are motivated by relationship

This seems like a false dichotomy to me.
Why couldn't a person enjoy their own sexuality for the sake of in-the-moment pleasure, AND appreciate love and togetherness and community and family?
Honestly, I don't even see the connection, never mind the contrast.

It would be like saying you don't enjoy ice cream because you value the nutrition provided by a wholesome home cooked meal.
You don't have to choose.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 01:03:57 PM
I see sex as serving two important roles, New Humans and building the relationship between two people. When not done with one of those two things in mind then I see it as not really being use properly and therefore its being abused.

So then masturbation is wrong?  Experimentation and play between young adults who haven't yet experienced true love and commitment?   What if a loving committed couple decides to try a threesome?  What if someone suffered a traumatic break-up of a long term relationship, and does some casual dating for a while to help them forget and move on in life?  Is that an "abuse"?

Come to think of it, what about marital sex, if the relationship has long since been built!?
 
Food serves the primary role of keeping us from dying, and sharing a meal can also help bond groups of people.
Does this mean eating snack food alone is an abuse of food?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Richard3 on December 02, 2013, 01:50:01 PM
Ok I haven't read every word that's above. Sorry. I will try to get through it. But I just wanted to make another comment.

There are a group of people who don't see the web cam stuff as sex. And there are a group of people who see it as sexual stuff and therefore lump it in with sex.

I would be in the second group.

I see sex as serving two important roles, New Humans and building the relationship between two people. When not done with one of those two things in mind then I see it as not really being use properly and therefore its being abused. Since I lump it all together that's why I see the web cam stuff as not a good idea.

So my question/comment is should all explicit sexual stuff be lumped together (not just kissing etc)?

Well, showing off your bits on webcam (for pay or just for fun) probably isn't for you if you think it is the sex and the sex is for the limited (and rather serious) purposes you mention.

That's a personal moral judgement you are entirely entitled to make- just as I am entirely entitled to make a different judgement that "sexual stuff" is a continuum on which webcamming is a step or two less serious than standard tab A slot B stuff which is a step or two below other stuff I won't mention in case your head explodes and that the primary purpose of sexual stuff is for one or more consenting adults to all experience physical and mental pleasure.

I do think that any time you try to lump a lot of different things together you miss a lot of subtleties.


Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 02, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
I see sex as serving two important roles, New Humans and building the relationship between two people. When not done with one of those two things in mind then I see it as not really being use properly and therefore its being abused.

So then masturbation is wrong?  Experimentation and play between young adults who haven't yet experienced true love and commitment?   What if a loving committed couple decides to try a threesome?  What if someone suffered a traumatic break-up of a long term relationship, and does some casual dating for a while to help them forget and move on in life?  Is that an "abuse"?

Come to think of it, what about marital sex, if the relationship has long since been built!?
 
Food serves the primary role of keeping us from dying, and sharing a meal can also help bond groups of people.
Does this mean eating snack food alone is an abuse of food?


Masturbation is overrated.

By "building a relationship" I really mean build and maintain. So every married couples can use sex that way (pleasure fits in there too). And I never said building a relationship via sex couldn't be "Experimentation and play between young adults who haven't yet experienced true love and commitment". I never even said you needed true love or commitment.

I never specified sex's primary role. I just said it serves two important roles. I tried to use the most general ways to put them as possible.

Well, showing off your bits on webcam (for pay or just for fun) probably isn't for you if you think it is the sex and the sex is for the limited (and rather serious) purposes you mention.

That's a personal moral judgement you are entirely entitled to make- just as I am entirely entitled to make a different judgement that "sexual stuff" is a continuum on which webcamming is a step or two less serious than standard tab A slot B stuff which is a step or two below other stuff I won't mention in case your head explodes and that the primary purpose of sexual stuff is for one or more consenting adults to all experience physical and mental pleasure.

I do think that any time you try to lump a lot of different things together you miss a lot of subtleties.


Building a relationship is what we do all the time when we interact with other human. I think you might have read into that bit too much, I tried to cover all the possibilities.

And yes I have a specific way of looking at it that differs from others. Don't worry about my head, it'll be fine.

I agree that if you over generalize you lose the subtleties. So where should we draw those lines?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 02, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
the happiest people I know are ones with strong ties to many folks and strong family bonds.  They are also the ones who invested their time and effort in maintaining contact and creating value for everyone.  They don't necessarily have a lot of money, but their focus is on love, comfort and happiness of others and it comes back to them in spades.

Now this is likely not true for everyone.  People don't all have the same motivation.  Some people, like me and all of my closest friends, are motivated by relationship

This seems like a false dichotomy to me.
Why couldn't a person enjoy their own sexuality for the sake of in-the-moment pleasure, AND appreciate love and togetherness and community and family?
Honestly, I don't even see the connection, never mind the contrast.

It would be like saying you don't enjoy ice cream because you value the nutrition provided by a wholesome home cooked meal.
You don't have to choose.

I guess you could read it as a dichotomy between in the moment pleasure and love and togetherness or we could get back to the topic of web camming sex for money and the ways in which this is not easy/fun money for many.

You seem not to recognize the fact that it might impact an individual's ability to bond with people who feel like this activity crosses a boundary that they wish to see in place in their close relationships because they connect sexual contact with others as something not done for money, but for shared pleasure as part of a larger aim to create a strong relationship. 

I'm telling you there are a lot of people out there like this and if you are like this your easy money project is not easy money for them and they might not realize the impact until after they do it.

In the moment pleasure created by masturbating online for money is okay for you.  It is something I view as potentially problematic for the reasons stated already.  I have no negative feelings about solo pleasure gained through masturbation which seems to be the solo momentary pleasure vs. love community dichotomy you believe has been set up. 

There is a difference between masturbation and sex for money from strangers for me.  The same distinction is not there for you.  This doesn't mean you are wrong for yourself, or that more people might not join you in future, but it does mean that this will not be easy fun money from home with no cost for many other folks or that it will fit with family and friends and the community they are a part of. 

I would not be comfortable as part of a community of individuals actively engaged in the sex trade because I view this job as not congruent with my values.  I would also not be comfortable in a community of people focussed on status because this is not congruent with my values.  At the same time, I do believe that individuals who choose this lifestyle are entitled to and they may be quite happy with their choices.  My values can be different and I don't require theirs to be the same as mine.  I do feel an obligation to pass down information to my children which might help them lead happier lives.

There are many for whom to adopt your advice would mean the loss of some values they find important and the loss of a lifestyle that works well for the love, comfort and happiness of their family.  Even further, it will absolutely not work for their emotional well-being.  You are trying to put a round peg into your square box and using your logic to pound it in anyway if you are saying what you are doing is fine for everyone and the ethically and logically superior choice. 

I'm not telling you that you need to change your ways, I'm saying I would be concerned about my children participating and there are a lot of people who would not find it fun and easy.  The emotional price tag would be far in excess of the $38 return. For similar reasons, I don't choose to work in any environment which I don't feel matches my values, even though it pays well. I would not feel emotionally well spending my time doing that so I don't do that.

When you masturbate for others for money and publish it online you turn it into a business activity. In your head this works because you would be doing it anyway, so why not make money for it and feel the impetus to get in shape to boot.

I understand this logic, but I don't have the same emotional response as you do to it and no logical argument is going to change that for me because my values are examined and internalized and I'm happy with them.  It might change the acceptance by others who are not like you of your choices because they understand your point of view better.  It might also encourage individuals who are like-minded to join you in it.  It also might encourage people who haven't worked out their values that it is easy fun money, and they might later regret this.

My views about the exchange of money for sex and the exposure of my genitals to the internet for someone else's sexual gratification are that this is not for me.   It might be easy money for you, but it would take a toll on my mental health.  This is because it is not a neutral activity for me.  It is something that is private, personal and, when shared, is shared as part of a bond with another person and this shared value is part of the community I belong to.

I suppose why I have spent so much time on this is that I find your approach off-putting.  I feel like you are translating your views in a highly analytical way that works for you and dismissing the emotional content of the lives of others as simple regurgitation of church/state ingrained control of our psyches and our bodies.  That is not my experience or my lived reality.  We don't all fit in the mold you are presenting.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Spork on December 02, 2013, 05:25:44 PM

I think we can all see you've got balls Bakari.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: _JT on December 02, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
You're awesome, Bakari. This is the sort of thing that naturally upsets people who aren't used to it, aren't progressive, or aren't open about human sexuality, but not only are you doing it, you're here talking about it with us.

I have zero problem with anyone earning money this way, even though I myself wouldn't do it.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: meadow lark on December 02, 2013, 05:58:53 PM
I would do it.  Well, not really, but not for moral reasons.  Mostly because my wife and son would be Horrified.  And I would have to go on a diet.  And I really don't want to diet.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: prosaic on December 02, 2013, 06:41:25 PM
Where do you draw the line at employing sexual topics in a manner that produces passive or active income?

Are nude models for art classes crossing some line?
Writers of erotic romance novels?
Sex chat (no visuals) operators?
Degreed, credentialed, licensed sex therapists?

No snark in my questions -- pure curiosity. I think Bakari's bringing out some interesting discussion here.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: gdborton on December 02, 2013, 06:59:04 PM
I lost 40 lbs this year, another 20 and I might have to consider this :)

I don't see the problem morally at all.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: michaelrecycles on December 02, 2013, 08:11:07 PM
Masturbation is overrated.

Hah really? Thanks for the update.

--

Seriously, I appreciate this thread, particularly comments made with the understanding that one size does not fit all. (Or cannot fit all!)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 02, 2013, 08:45:38 PM
Masturbation is overrated.

Hah really? Thanks for the update.

--

Seriously, I appreciate this thread, particularly comments made with the understanding that one size does not fit all. (Or cannot fit all!)

It is a very fun thread. I am still interested in how much Bakari makes off of this.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Roses on December 02, 2013, 09:59:10 PM
I see no problem with it whatsoever and I'll be interested to hear updates on how it's going.  Both how you feel and how much money you make.  You are clearly very comfortable sexually ;)  This kind of thing has been around in one form or another for so long it's just human nature.  It's true what someone said that there is a lot of exploitation in the industry.  But that's no reason not to participate in the non-exploitative part of it.  In fact, I think you're doing a good thing by contributing the the healthy and harmless side of it.  there should be more of that and less of the 'barely legal' stuff out there!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 10:48:10 PM
You seem not to recognize the fact that it might impact an individual's ability to bond with people who feel like this activity crosses a boundary that they wish to see in place in their close relationships...
I'm telling you there are a lot of people out there like this and if you are like this your easy money project is not easy money for them and they might not realize the impact until after they do it.
I don't understand what I said came across as "everyone must do this"

My replies to some of what you wrote earlier were directed at the earliest comments suggesting that the entire thing was destructive to all relationships, "lacking in ethical self-dignity", that it was, (or bordering on) exploitation.
Nothing I wrote here should be construed to suggest that I believe everyone should feel comfortable doing something like this, or that it is something everyone should try.  You keep saying "it wouldn't be easy money for many", and neither I nor anyone else has ever contradicted that. 

Similarly, I know many people who don't feel comfortable with the ethics of investing in the stock market.  Its certainly a question I have wrestled with.  But when MMM or anyone here recommends a particular investment strategy, I don't read it as an insistence that I personally must follow it, and so I feel no need to interject with my own personal feelings about it. 


Quote
There are many for whom to adopt your advice would mean the loss of some values they find important and the loss of a lifestyle that works well for the love, comfort and happiness of their family. 
Even further, it will absolutely not work for their emotional well-being.
First of all, it was never advice.  It was just information.  I was sharing what I did, for the benefit of anyone who might be interested but it never occurred to them, or they didn't realize how easy it actually is to set up.

Second, those people wouldn't do it!  It's that simple!! 

Quote
  You are trying to put a round peg into your square box and using your logic to pound it in anyway if you are saying what you are doing is fine for everyone and the ethically and logically superior choice. 
I never said anything of the sort!  Although, given that you read that into something I wrote, I can understand the reaction.

Quote
  It also might encourage people who haven't worked out their values that it is easy fun money, and they might later regret this.

18 years is a long time to work out at least the most basic of values.

Yes, people can potentially change fundamental things, all through out life.  Corporate lawyers and tobacco farmers may later regret their choices too.  People from all walks of life occasionally wake up and decide to be a nun or an activist or whatever.
 
Then again, there are people who look back on their life from old age and regret all the things they missed out on.

We can't know the future, not even of our own minds.

But adults get to make their own choices - even ones they might hypothetically regret someday.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 10:53:23 PM
Where do you draw the line at employing sexual topics in a manner that produces passive or active income?

Are nude models for art classes crossing some line?
Writers of erotic romance novels?
Sex chat (no visuals) operators?
Degreed, credentialed, licensed sex therapists?

No snark in my questions -- pure curiosity. I think Bakari's bringing out some interesting discussion here.

How about underwear models for the Sears catalog, or an actress who does a non-sexual topless scene (a scene in a hippy commune, for example), or even a shoe model, given that foot fetish is one of the most common ones?
Should it change the meaning for them if some viewers get a sexual thrill from viewing it, even if it wasn't the intention?


For that matter - speaking of the internet degrading real life human connection, what about the impact of web forums increasingly taking the place of real life face-to-face interactions?  Could it be that facebook and twitter are at least as much to blame for reducing the meaning in our lives?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 02, 2013, 11:19:24 PM
I see no problem with it whatsoever and I'll be interested to hear updates on how it's going.  Both how you feel and how much money you make.  You are clearly very comfortable sexually ;)

In principal maybe!
In practice, it is just as weird as you might imagine it would be (given that I, though open minded and LGBT friendly, happen to be straight, and most of the clients are male)
Incidentally, there has been exactly 0 (real) masturbation thus far.  Not that I wouldn't, it just hasn't been... um... possible.
(See post #15, by SethBahookey)

I doubt I'll make all that much.  The pool of viewers of a single male is much smaller than for a single female or couples.  And it has to fit in with my real jobs, and recreation time - its just a random side thing, not something I intend to put any real time or effort into. 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 03, 2013, 09:42:12 AM
oh, btw -
to all those with brief but positive comments

Thank you!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Richard3 on December 03, 2013, 07:57:14 PM

I think we can all see you've got balls Bakari.

Well if we pay a dollar a minute we can :)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 07, 2013, 12:24:08 PM
You seem not to recognize the fact that it might impact an individual's ability to bond with people who feel like this activity crosses a boundary that they wish to see in place in their close relationships...
I'm telling you there are a lot of people out there like this and if you are like this your easy money project is not easy money for them and they might not realize the impact until after they do it.
I don't understand what I said came across as "everyone must do this"

My replies to some of what you wrote earlier were directed at the earliest comments suggesting that the entire thing was destructive to all relationships, "lacking in ethical self-dignity", that it was, (or bordering on) exploitation....

Quote
  It also might encourage people who haven't worked out their values that it is easy fun money, and they might later regret this.

18 years is a long time to work out at least the most basic of values.

Yes, people can potentially change fundamental things, all through out life.  Corporate lawyers and tobacco farmers may later regret their choices too.  People from all walks of life occasionally wake up and decide to be a nun or an activist or whatever.
 
Then again, there are people who look back on their life from old age and regret all the things they missed out on.

We can't know the future, not even of our own minds.

But adults get to make their own choices - even ones they might hypothetically regret someday.

I never said that you stated that everyone must do it.  I also did not say these activities were always lacking in ethical self-dignity. 

I said that masturbating online for money could be potentially self-destructive and lacking in ethical self-dignity to quote a Buddhist concept.  It seems as though you interpreted this as a blanket statement that the behaviour was unethical.  The Buddhist concept of ethical self- dignity states that self-destructive behaviour may be motivated by naivety and leads to not caring about how our behavior reflects on us – and having no concern about how our behavior reflects on others, such as on those we care about.  It seems to me that this type of behaviour COULD fit this category, not that yours does or that someone else's might or might not.  Whether or not you agree with the concept of ethical self-dignity, it seems to encapsulate a possible outcome.

My response was to your statement that it is church and state controlling us in some way that creates this barrier that turns sex for money into something different than, say, painting a house for money.  Saying that those who view sex for money as different from any job are indoctrinated and operating with false logic is, in my view, judgmental and based on faulty reasoning.

If it is only church and state that are creating this moral boundary, those who have this moral boundary it follows that those who are simply indoctrinated/brainwashed and not able to form their own viewpoint.  If only they were able to free themselves of these illogical concepts they would see that sex for money really is like taking money for painting a house.

I don't happen to agree with you.  I might have at 25 because at 25 I was focussed on ideas and ideals.  At 40 I have lived enough to know that for many our emotional lives are a far more powerful driver and pure logic divorced from emotional drivers will not generally create great social policy or lead to what works to create more happiness.  Unfortunately for those with a strong facility for pure logic, life is not a math equation.

So, how do I evaluate  ideals and intellectual concepts?  My bottom line is does this work in real life to increase happiness?  When I look around I would say that your option does not work in real life for me and would not work for those I am closely associated with and care about and I don't want my children following your example.  I do not believe in my case this is because of church and state indoctrination, but, in my view, because of the need for close and intimate relationships based on shared ideas and concepts of meaning that work in real life today, and not just on paper in a theoretical utopian future.   

With your choice to engage in these activities you are narrowing the numbers of those who will view your choices as conducive to a truly close emotional relationships with them.  You don't care because you are okay with these limits, perhaps because you view those who do not think like you as unsuitable partners and friends and better to weed them out.  That is fine.  This is not to say that you should not have the freedom to pursue your ideal reality and that pushing boundaries is not valuable, but to say that those who view sex for money as not easy money and not a positive choice for them and their family are indoctrinated and somewhat illogical is not okay in my books. 

Also, imo, eighteen years is not a long time to learn what makes you happy.  I would say most people I know went through an experimental stage until their mid-twenties.  There is a reason that social change is embraced by younger generations first: they have less to lose, have not experienced consequences and often do not have the same self-imposed limits.  This can be good for social progress, but, in my experience, it also means these individuals are often more vulnerable to doing what does not make them happier.

I've noticed that some youth are particularly vulnerable to social pressure to do all sorts of things that they might later regret.  I see this in the work I do and I don't know any probation officer or social worker who would not agree.  The most vulnerable seem to be those who don't have strong emotional support systems or those who have emotional issues to work through.  I know many people who regret choices made early in life as a result of social pressure because of underlying emotional drivers - like the need to fit in and be part of a group.

So, adults get to make their own choices, but part of that is really understanding the impact these choices may have.  Everything we do has consequences.  We create promote and allow the things that happen in our life to a great degree.  Being exposed to alternate viewpoints was always helpful for me.  I would not like any person to read your "fun and easy money from the comfort of home" and get carried away with a plan to do this which they later come to regret.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: lifejoy on December 07, 2013, 01:14:23 PM

I think we can all see you've got balls Bakari.

Well if we pay a dollar a minute we can :)

Bahahhaa! that made me laugh so hard. Also, definitely tempted to be a foot fetish model...

Have you all heard the saying, "If it exists, there's a fetish of it!" <--- probably very true.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: nikki on December 07, 2013, 04:51:12 PM

I think we can all see you've got balls Bakari.

Well if we pay a dollar a minute we can :)

Bahahhaa! that made me laugh so hard. Also, definitely tempted to be a foot fetish model...

Have you all heard the saying, "If it exists, there's a fetish of it!" <--- probably very true.

I know of one model who only shows her feet. No one even knows what the rest of her body looks like.

She doesn't make much money, though. But she's on a lot, so it probably evens out to be a decent chunk. I suspect she's reading or doing other work while she wiggles her toes around for tips and prospective private sessions.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Kriegsspiel on December 07, 2013, 08:08:43 PM

I think we can all see you've got balls Bakari.

Well if we pay a dollar a minute we can :)

Bahahhaa! that made me laugh so hard. Also, definitely tempted to be a foot fetish model...

Have you all heard the saying, "If it exists, there's a fetish of it!" <--- probably very true.

Is that a corrolary to Rule 34?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: plantingourpennies on December 08, 2013, 07:45:56 PM
@Totoro; MOD EDIT: Personal attack removed. The guy is an adult, and is not hurting anybody; I won't sit by while you try to shame him in a public forum for his personal choices.

@Le0; MOD EDIT: Personal attack removed. If you disagree with someone's interpretation of Kant it would be more productive to tell us why instead of calling them names. Please refer to rules 1, 2, and 4 (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/)

@Bakari; Good on you for exploring your limits! It ain't my thing, but I'll happily defend your right to pursue it!

Best,
Mr. PoP
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 08, 2013, 11:15:51 PM
It is interesting that you perceive my comments as moral outrage.   I don't feel outraged, but I am interested in the underlying issues it raised for me.

None of my comments, if you read them, were directed at Bakari's participation in this, but rather:

1. the presentation of it as an easy and fun way to make money
2. the question that was posed as to whether you would be okay with your children doing this
3. the statement that those who believe that exchanging sex for money is different than, say typing a document for money are simply indoctrinated by church and state

I don't care if Bakari does this.  He seems to have a worked-out set of ethics around it and he is an adult.  He raises an interesting issue for me that I haven't really thought much about.  What I have thought about is that prostitution should be legalized and the internet has changed things for our children.  I agree that what consenting adults want to do is up to them, but I also think that alternate viewpoints are helpful when making choices. 

The thing is that, unlike Bakari, when asked the question, I realized I do care if my children do think this is a fun and easy way to make money.  I don't believe this is due to indoctrination by church and state but because it does not fit my own worked-out set of ethics that are grounded in what makes me and the people around me happier.  What works.  I do believe this type of activity could backfire for some for the reasons I set out.  I will love my children no matter what and help them always, but I, as a parent want them to be happy so I focus on what I know works for this.

That is the good thing about living where we do - we do get to develop our own set of ethics and live by them.  I'm not telling anyone they need to live by mine and those that are considering this will make their own decisions.  I'm also not saying that if you do this you are going to experience negative consequences.  I would because I would feel bad doing it.  You might not.   

Ethics are interesting.  I believe we are all entitled to develop our own and the law steps in to impose limits when there is perceived or actual harm caused by the behaviour, although we have seen that this has changed over time and the law has not always been just.  Drinking and driving used to be okay.  Homosexuality was not.  People who push boundaries based on well-thought ethics are to be recognized for the positive social change they bring that rectifies injustice imposed by a "moral majority". 

That said, this issue does not strike me as one grounded in a pressing need for social change based on injustice in the world.  Sexual ethics are changing and will continue to change.  I do know that I am being honest in my response and I'm entitled to my own views.

Are you trying to shut down my viewpoint for a reason? You sound morally outraged by it.  But perhaps you did not read what I wrote in total or misinterpreted something. 

In any event, I have little patience for rudeness, but quite a bit of admiration for Bakari's ability to respond to alternate viewpoints with well-thought out commentary.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: HappierAtHome on December 09, 2013, 02:41:52 AM
I actually thought this was a good example of well reasoned and reasonable discussion, with both totoro and bakari providing their opinions in a thoughtful and respectful manner. It's Mr PoP whose comments strike me as disrespectful, with a personal attack on totoro that seems way out of line with the conversation going on here.

I agree with bakari overall on the topic of human sexuality, but totoro's rational discussion on why s/he wouldn't want her/his kids doing it really resonated with me. Good points from both parties have pushed me to consider my stance, so thanks for the challenging ideas :-)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Elaine on December 09, 2013, 10:11:32 AM
I seriously considered this- I was just concerned that someone would record me or take my image and it would end up on sites all over the place. If there were some certain safeguard against that happening then I would do it in a second. I mean, it's not any more degrading than half the service industry jobs I've had- plus if I'm home I'm pretty much lounging in underwear either way, so...
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 09, 2013, 10:17:44 AM
I seriously considered this- I was just concerned that someone would record me or take my image and it would end up on sites all over the place. If there were some certain safeguard against that happening then I would do it in a second. I mean, it's not any more degrading than half the service industry jobs I've had- plus if I'm home I'm pretty much lounging in underwear either way, so...

From the sounds of it, it might require a little more than lounging in underwear.

But you bring up a point, Bakari said that there are some many people doing it that the worry that your image is going to be passed around like that is small, and if it does happen the internet is a very large place.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: YK-Phil on December 09, 2013, 10:29:23 AM
This is badass in more ways that one! If I add a sit-up routine in my daily workout to get rid of the only extra two pounds of fat I carry, I might consider a part time job like this!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 09, 2013, 11:02:51 AM
I'm not sure that Bakari's take on the level of anonymity associated with internet activity is correct.

I recently received an email about fellow I went to high school with.  It was a not very flattering post about him by someone he had dated.  The thing is, we've all been out of high school for more than twenty years, I haven't seen this fellow since then, and this was the SECOND time this had been forwarded to me.  He doesn't even live in Canada anymore.

Even when an image is not attached, identification is a possibility.  Not only from an IP address, but also by someone who knows you figuring it out.  I have an acquaintance who was concerned about some behaviours and discovered her boyfriend's ad on a website for sexual encounters.  There was no picture and no identifiable information except the username, which was quite like another username she knew he used.  She was able to confirm this, and she told everyone about it - including what he had been looking for which some folks found off-putting.  I am also aware of a number of divorce cases in which internet activity and images have been tendered.

In my view, the internet is not anonymous, particularly with recognizable images.  The chances of someone finding these images and forwarding them around to others is, imo, quite high.  The urge to gossip and forward titillating information, while ethically questionable, is quite powerful - whole magazines cater to this.  And you might never know it had happened.

If this bothers you then you might want to take this into account.  If it doesn't, then there really is not risk.  If you view pictures of your genitals the same way you view pictures of your face and don't mind others commenting on them, then you are likely ok here too.

More disturbing, this brings to mind the many nude phone pics and sexting that kids are sending and the fact that these images are often forwarded on.  We have had two public cases in Canada that I'm aware of where this led to bullying that led to the young women taking their lives.  In addition, the teens that forwarded the messages can now be charged with distributing child pornography.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 09, 2013, 11:29:02 AM
In the first one or two of Totoro's posts I pretty much interpreted it as moralizing too, although since she has explained it more thoroughly and it's changed how I read the first ones.  I'm glad everyone else read it as reasonable and respectful, because, honestly, I felt we were perhaps both a bit reactionary at first - certainly I felt that way.

There were particular phrases I was reacting to, (as I quoted later), but since she has made it clear the focus is on what works for her, and what she believes works those close to her, which I totally get. 
I, for example, have absolutely no problem with homosexuality in principal (obviously), but, having tried it, it simple doesn't work for me.  Practicing it would not bring me happiness.

LeO was on to something when pointing out some consider anything connected with sexuality to be "sex", and some don't.
I don't see any of this as being remotely "sex".  I would definitely not be willing to have any form of physical contact with any of my fans, not for any price.

And I don't feel any conflict between enjoying the purely physical sensations of sex sometimes, and having it be a meaningful expression of deeply felt mutual love at other times, any more than I feel a conflict between mostly eating healthy and sometimes enjoying ice cream.  Many people feel there is a conflict there, and if they choose to never engage in the former, I have no problem with that - so long as they aren't claiming it's inherently wrong.
I do believe that the claim that it is inherently wrong is bad for all of humanity.  At first I thought Totoro was making that claim, and that's why my response was long and perhaps strongly worded, but she has been pretty clear on that point since then.

I still have some reservations about the definition of ethics and on how the possibility of regret should inform our choices, but I felt we had come close enough to understanding to let it go where it was.

I actually thought this was a good example of well reasoned and reasonable discussion,

which is exactly why I have most of my online conversations, on every topic, on this forum.  It seems to defy the standard of internet making people more prone to disrespect than real life interactions for reasons which are not entire clear to me.

I seriously considered this- I was just concerned that someone would record me or take my image and it would end up on sites all over the place. If there were some certain safeguard against that happening then I would do it in a second. I mean, it's not any more degrading than half the service industry jobs I've had- plus if I'm home I'm pretty much lounging in underwear either way, so...

The only safeguard is that there are over 35 MILLION pages of porn on the interent (and that's only including the ones with the term "porn" specifically in the page, not "nude" or "live cam").  If you then consider the individual images on all of those pages, you are easily going into the hundreds of millions of total images.  So, unless you make a very serious effort to market yourself as a porn star, you are, at most, one or two in a few hundred million.

But someone here said that a coworker did randomly find her online, and made a snarky comment (she didn't say whether or not she had admitted to anyone that she was doing it at all, or whether she put honest info on her camming page making her easier to search - you have the option to claim on your profile that you are from where ever you want, to fudge your age and height and weight, and even to block all viewers from your any city, state, or country, if you are concerned your parents or boss or whatever might be watching your show)
It could happen.
Then again, you could let a partner take a naked picture of you, the two of you break up, and they post it online.  Or someone could be on a cliff filming you on a nude beach.  Meh.  I know in our culture this tends to be a bigger deal for women than men (which is a terrible double standard, and on behalf of all men, I apologize), but unless you are in a very strict religious community, people would get over it, and life would go on.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 09, 2013, 11:36:28 AM
I'm not sure that Bakari's take on the level of anonymity associated with internet activity is correct.

I recently received an email about fellow I went to high school with.  It was a not very flattering post about him by someone he had dated.  The thing is, we've all been out of high school for more than twenty years, I haven't seen this fellow since then, and this was the SECOND time this had been forwarded to me.  He doesn't even live in Canada anymore.

Even when an image is not attached, identification is a possibility.  Not only from an IP address, but also by someone who knows you figuring it out.  I have an acquaintance who was concerned about some behaviours and discovered her boyfriend's ad on a website for sexual encounters.  There was no picture and no identifiable information except the username, which was quite like another username she knew he used.  She was able to confirm this, and she told everyone about it - including what he had been looking for which some folks found off-putting.  I am also aware of a number of divorce cases in which internet activity and images have been tendered.

In my view, the internet is not anonymous, particularly with recognizable images.  The chances of someone finding these images and forwarding them around to others is, imo, quite high.  The urge to gossip and forward titillating information, while ethically questionable, is quite powerful - whole magazines cater to this.  And you might never know it had happened.

If this bothers you then you might want to take this into account.  If it doesn't, then there really is not risk.  If you view pictures of your genitals the same way you view pictures of your face and don't mind others commenting on them, then you are likely ok here too.

More disturbing, this brings to mind the many nude phone pics and sexting that kids are sending and the fact that these images are often forwarded on.  We have had two public cases in Canada that I'm aware of where this led to bullying that led to the young women taking their lives.  In addition, the teens that forwarded the messages can now be charged with distributing child pornography.

That's actually a good point, although with a caveat

There are no internet searches that can identify individuals by image alone (yet!)
This is a reason to use totally unique and distinct usernames and stage names and similar "information" if you do something you want kept anonymous.
Its not so much that "even when an image is not attached", its that if a name IS attached, identification is possible. 

That being said, it seems likely that the technology to uniquely identify a person by face with software will be perfected in the not-to-distant future, and when it does it might not take long to trickle down to google (or at least some illegal website, since privacy laws might keep google from doing it, but if it exists, people will find a way to use it)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 09, 2013, 11:45:38 AM
I'm not sure that Bakari's take on the level of anonymity associated with internet activity is correct.

I recently received an email about fellow I went to high school with.  It was a not very flattering post about him by someone he had dated.  The thing is, we've all been out of high school for more than twenty years, I haven't seen this fellow since then, and this was the SECOND time this had been forwarded to me.  He doesn't even live in Canada anymore.

Even when an image is not attached, identification is a possibility.  Not only from an IP address, but also by someone who knows you figuring it out.  I have an acquaintance who was concerned about some behaviours and discovered her boyfriend's ad on a website for sexual encounters.  There was no picture and no identifiable information except the username, which was quite like another username she knew he used.  She was able to confirm this, and she told everyone about it - including what he had been looking for which some folks found off-putting.  I am also aware of a number of divorce cases in which internet activity and images have been tendered.

In my view, the internet is not anonymous, particularly with recognizable images.  The chances of someone finding these images and forwarding them around to others is, imo, quite high.  The urge to gossip and forward titillating information, while ethically questionable, is quite powerful - whole magazines cater to this.  And you might never know it had happened.

If this bothers you then you might want to take this into account.  If it doesn't, then there really is not risk.  If you view pictures of your genitals the same way you view pictures of your face and don't mind others commenting on them, then you are likely ok here too.

More disturbing, this brings to mind the many nude phone pics and sexting that kids are sending and the fact that these images are often forwarded on.  We have had two public cases in Canada that I'm aware of where this led to bullying that led to the young women taking their lives.  In addition, the teens that forwarded the messages can now be charged with distributing child pornography.

That's actually a good point, although with a caveat

There are no internet searches that can identify individuals by image alone (yet!)
This is a reason to use totally unique and distinct usernames and stage names and similar "information" if you do something you want kept anonymous.
Its not so much that "even when an image is not attached", its that if a name IS attached, identification is possible. 

That being said, it seems likely that the technology to uniquely identify a person by face with software will be perfected in the not-to-distant future, and when it does it might not take long to trickle down to google (or at least some illegal website, since privacy laws might keep google from doing it, but if it exists, people will find a way to use it)

I was able to do this search with your profile picture. But your right that technology doesn't complete exist for the end user yet.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16068833/Capture.PNG)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: totoro on December 09, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
I don't know Bakari.  All it takes is one cam shot transmitted to a porn site and one person who can identify you and forwards this information and so on.

Given the number of porn images one person can view in their lifetime and multiply that by the relatively widespread incidence of internet porn consumption and I think the possibility of losing anonymity is not that low.  Become famous for some reason, and it shoots up astronomically.

Unless society as a whole views this activity as neutral the worry of exposure will not be negligible imo.  Not sure that will happen, but it is a possibility.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Spork on December 09, 2013, 12:21:52 PM
I might also add: facial recognition has reached the "wow, it really works now" stage. 

My personal feeling here is if you can reach the "Meh, I don't care who knows." -- you're ok.  If you really want to keep it secret, the chances are it will leak someday.    Along with the rules of the internet that say "if it exists, there is porn of it" I'll add an addendum:  If you put something out there, somebody will keep a copy of it.   As long as you don't care: more power to you.  I hope you rake in the bucks.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on December 09, 2013, 12:39:03 PM
I was able to do this search with your profile picture. But your right that technology doesn't complete exist for the end user yet.


exactly.  I have hundreds of different images in dozens of contexts online, different forums, google products, facebook, my own blog, my old blog, myspace, other people's pictures of me - and all it could find was this here forum.
And you could get lots and lots about me - where I have lived, phone numbers and emails past and present, and plenty of personal stuff, with google and some time.
But unless I tell you my stage name, I will be very surprised if any of you can find the (professionally produced) amature porn I was in 6 years ago
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Le0 on December 09, 2013, 12:55:13 PM
I was able to do this search with your profile picture. But your right that technology doesn't complete exist for the end user yet.


exactly.  I have hundreds of different images in dozens of contexts online, different forums, google products, facebook, my own blog, my old blog, myspace, other people's pictures of me - and all it could find was this here forum.
And you could get lots and lots about me - where I have lived, phone numbers and emails past and present, and plenty of personal stuff, with google and some time.
But unless I tell you my stage name, I will be very surprised if any of you can find the (professionally produced) amature porn I was in 6 years ago

Someone is going to take this as a challenge. :P unless you sly dog there isn't any porn.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: .22guy on December 09, 2013, 02:33:23 PM
I don't judge people for doing what they want to do, but this definitely wouldn't be for me.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: warfreak2 on March 18, 2014, 04:36:39 PM
Sorry to bump an old thread about something irrelevant, but philosophy, and it's an interesting thread anyway.

Quote
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. -Immanuel Kant   
I disagree with Immanuel Kant (and not only on this).
It is good for one person to be a fire fighter.  It would be bad if everyone was.

Choosing to be a firefighter doesn't mean that the person lives according to the maxim "be a firefighter"; more likely, they're living according to some maxim like "do something that helps other people" or "do something you enjoy or are good at, that other people are willing to pay for", which leads themselves to being a firefighter, and does stand up to the categorical imperative.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on March 18, 2014, 05:47:09 PM
Sorry to bump an old thread about something irrelevant, but philosophy, and it's an interesting thread anyway.

Quote
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. -Immanuel Kant   
I disagree with Immanuel Kant (and not only on this).
It is good for one person to be a fire fighter.  It would be bad if everyone was.

Choosing to be a firefighter doesn't mean that the person lives according to the maxim "be a firefighter"; more likely, they're living according to some maxim like "do something that helps other people" or "do something you enjoy or are good at, that other people are willing to pay for", which leads themselves to being a firefighter, and does stand up to the categorical imperative.

The way you interpret it, I feel it would apply equally well to what I was doing back when this thread was active.

Kind of lost motivation when I started dating someone I was actually excited about.  Not that I think there is any moral or social relevance, but its just how my heart and mind work.  Similar to how I support gay rights, and I have no problem with poly folk, but I happen to be straight, and a monogamist.  The monogamist in me took the fun out of camming once I started being intimate with a real person.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: warfreak2 on March 18, 2014, 05:50:31 PM
The way you interpret it, I feel it would apply equally well to what I was doing back when this thread was active.
I agree!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: arebelspy on March 18, 2014, 05:56:54 PM
How much did you make?  And how much per hour was it?
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Cassie on March 19, 2014, 06:59:37 PM
SetBahookey, I laughed so hard out loud when I read your post about your experience in the business!   Too funny!!! I say that this type of work is not hurting anyone and if someone enjoys doing it they should.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on March 19, 2014, 08:36:16 PM
How much did you make?  And how much per hour was it?

probably about $50.
Actual "work" time, hmm... maybe 20 minutes (not counting initial set-up)? 
The vast majority of the time I was online, I was just doing my regular workouts that I would have been doing anyway, with the reasoning that I was "building a fan base" (which I was).
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: TreeTired on March 23, 2014, 08:51:14 PM
I would definitely put on some kind of a disguise if I tried this.  Sure hope my wife doesn't see me!!! 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Squirrel away on March 24, 2014, 06:24:03 AM
I don't see any problem with someone doing this although I wouldn't do it myself, too shy and would need to hit the gym pretty hard lol.

Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: The_path_less_taken on June 24, 2015, 10:53:32 AM
Quote
I think of it as being the same as ANY employment.  You are renting the use of your hands and mind to your employer/clients, because they are paying you to do something that you wouldn't be doing otherwise.  If you, say, write code, you are using your body - your hands - to type for someone else, and they are paying you for it.  You are renting your body.  A masseuse or physical therapist, or even a doctor, is using their body to touch other people in a way that makes them feel better, and getting paid for it. 
I believe the only thing that separates literally any job from prostitution is moralizing against unsanctioned sex.
I'm not suggesting that this particular critique, or Totoro personally, is using the top-down rule driven "morality" of religion, but I think that ultimately this entire concept originates from attempts by religious and civil authorities to control individuals by controlling sexuality.  It stems from a complex societies need to have a system of property and power distribution across generations which requires knowledge of paternity, which, thousands of years before birth control, could only be achieved by banning all sex outside of (religious or government sanctioned) marriage.  Its been driven into the collective cultural consciousness for so many generations that now even secular humanists tend to accept the premise without question, much as a fish doesn't notice the water it's swimming in.

I won't go to much further than that, I've written about it extensively: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-oldest-profession.html (http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-oldest-profession.html)



1+ for the above. And I applaud your bravery: this would not be something I could/would do.

But I did briefly take a phone sex job years ago (curiosity/and the ability to work from home) and I was astounded at how much of it was guys just wanting to talk to a non-judgmental woman.

Probably about 25% of the regulars just wanted to chat "So, are you going hiking with your dog today?" or "God my boss is a moron...." kinds of conversations...sometimes morphing into "When a woman says she wants to be friends, how can we still have sex?" types of questions. And some I think called back for me just because I remembered shit: "hey, didn't you say you had a job review coming up: how'd that go?"

I do agree with the people who worry about online postings never going away. Although now that my Dad has passed away...not really concerned about anyone else's opinion on that.

And while it is 'sad' that people feel that connecting with a webcam model is some sort of interaction, versus connecting with someone out in the real world, I think it's better than nothing.

That said...I often communicate better with you people than with anyone in the real world. If you piss me off, I power down the computer. If somebody is yammering away in one thread, I go to another one.

And some of you have written things that are so beautiful they have made me cry, and made me think, and made me very glad this forum exits.

(and curse the times the damn thing is down!)

Go Bakari! Your love of life is inspiring.


edited to say: for some reason my computer isn't cooperating. the top portion is a quote from Bakari, the bottom portion was my comment...no idea how to reformat it, sorry.

[Mod Note: Fixed quote tags.]
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: cbr shadow on July 08, 2015, 05:06:55 AM
I just want to say that I'm really impressed with all of your responses, Bakari.  I agree with your viewpoints, although I wouldn't be able to articulate them as well as you have.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Rosy on July 08, 2015, 10:15:38 AM
Sex is a business and love and relationships are not. That is where the distinction lies.

If you've got a nice bod and it turns you on to work out in front of the camera - and it results in easy money for you, why not? In order to be good which brings success you have to enjoy it:) Showing yourself, pleasing yourself and being proud of yourself and your sexy-worthiness.
If you have issues, whether religious, moral, ethical or with your body then don't even entertain the idea, it is not for you. End of story.

Good luck with your sidehustle, Bakari.

 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: Bakari on July 13, 2015, 09:53:24 AM

And while it is 'sad' that people feel that connecting with a webcam model is some sort of interaction, versus connecting with someone out in the real world, I think it's better than nothing.


I know of someone (pretty sure through this very thread?) who met their spouse webcamming.

Quote
That said...I often communicate better with you people than with anyone in the real world.


Was true for me too, up until I met my partner.  Who, incidentally, I was introduced to by a friend I met at... a MMM meetup! 






As it turns out, one or more current partners of someone who may or may not be typing these words right now might possibly have been not only accepting of the idea of me doing it, but willing to join me, and we (or they?) may or may not have found you make a lot more money if its a straight couple than just a solo male, and also that recording and uploading content is much less work (and usually more fun) than live chat, and these hypothetical people may have made over $1000 since I was last on these forums, just with the relatively low paying strictly self-uploaded amateuer stuff, and might be considering the jump to pro-am which pays about 50x more
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: partgypsy on July 13, 2015, 10:52:17 AM
I don't have a problem with it at all. As long as you don't care that your images may get out in the public, and whatever repercussions that entail from that (professional, personal). I think this kind of thing is becoming more accepted.

 
When I was in my 20's I had done a couple artist modeling (non-nude) on request. With a sheet, or in underwear. Those two and another (that I turned down) was asked if could do nude. I wanted to, but just too shy. In principal I don't have a problem with nudity, just couldn't do it for myself (yet alone other things Bakari mentioned!). I kind of wish I had some photos of when I was in my prime, but sei la vie.

 
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: biotechgirl on July 13, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
This was certainly interesting to find on this site! I admire your bravery for telling us about your side hustle. I just couldn't resist sharing, I'm a sugar baby. That's my side hustle and it is working out for me very well so far. I charge around $300 - $400 a date. Before you ask, NO I don't sleep with them. I'm averaging 10-12 dates a month and I could take on more if I wasn't already working at another job. This could be something else for people to look into. I don't think that Web cam modeling would be for me though.
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: okits on July 13, 2015, 07:03:09 PM
As it turns out, one or more current partners of someone who may or may not be typing these words right now might possibly have been not only accepting of the idea of me doing it, but willing to join me, and we (or they?) may or may not have found you make a lot more money if its a straight couple than just a solo male, and also that recording and uploading content is much less work (and usually more fun) than live chat, and these hypothetical people may have made over $1000 since I was last on these forums, just with the relatively low paying strictly self-uploaded amateuer stuff, and might be considering the jump to pro-am which pays about 50x more

Way to go, Bakari (err... Theoretical acquaintance of Bakari) and partner!  Getting paid, getting, well, um, filmed.  :)
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: IntoTheCrevasse on July 30, 2015, 07:51:10 AM
Reading this thread, I just had to sneak in here. In my mid-20's I worked as a stripper and it was one of the most fun and gratifying jobs I ever had. It was also shockingly tame compared to what most people THINK it is. In response to the "what if my kids did this?" question - I tell my mother everything. So when I became a dancer, I knew I had to tell her. Was she excited for me? No way! Did she want me to stop? Definitely. But she also knew that I was a grown woman. She knows that I'm smart, I'm capable, and I run my life my own way. She trusted me to be safe. Having done it myself, I would have no problems with my own children moving into sex work as long as they were of age (obviously), informed, and safe.

It definitely takes a certain personality and an openness about sexuality to do this type of work. I don't tell everyone that I meet for my own safety and also because not everyone deserves my stories, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it and don't hide it. I've had a lot of jobs (like you Bakari!) and compared to other low-level work, it was much more dignified haha! In short, I recommend it. The money's right!

I've been considering cam work for a long time! Nikki I'd love to hear more about your experiences!
Title: Re: Easy money in your spare time from the comfort of home
Post by: norcalmike on August 04, 2015, 12:05:23 AM
I'm very intrigued by this idea. I could care less who sees me online if you pay me enough. I have no kids so I'm good to go.
Sign me up!