Author Topic: Credit card churning, how to continue?  (Read 12450 times)

Catica

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Credit card churning, how to continue?
« on: June 08, 2019, 04:45:21 AM »
Hi,

I'm curious how people can constantly do cc churning.  I've done a bunch of cards, have excellent credit but now I keep being denied with an explanation that I've opened too many accounts.  How is it possible for anyone to keep on churning?

kpd905

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2019, 07:12:03 AM »
How many have you opened, and in what time frame?  And which cards are you getting denied for?

Chase has a 5/24 rule, which means they will deny you if you have opened more than 5 cards in the last 24 months.  I think Barclays has a 6/24 rule for the Arrival+ card.

Frugalicious

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2019, 07:12:16 AM »
Business cards that don’t show on your credit report. 


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Papa bear

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2019, 07:21:46 AM »
Business cards that don’t show on your credit report. 


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Where do you find business cards that don’t pull your personal credit?  I’ve been told I’m personally liable up until the business has annual revenue > 10million. So basically it’s a “business card” that is actual my own card. 




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Frugalicious

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2019, 07:34:01 AM »
Yes, business cards do pull your personal credit, but if they issue a card, some banks do not report the card on your credit report.  So you are able to get more cards with the only impact to your credit being the inquiry.  This method is helpful for getting back under 5/24.   American Express, Bank of America, Citibank, and Wells Fargo do not report business cards on credit reports as long as there is nothing negative (missed payments, etc) to report.


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Papa bear

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2019, 08:23:38 AM »
Yes, business cards do pull your personal credit, but if they issue a card, some banks do not report the card on your credit report.  So you are able to get more cards with the only impact to your credit being the inquiry.  This method is helpful for getting back under 5/24.   American Express, Bank of America, Citibank, and Wells Fargo do not report business cards on credit reports as long as there is nothing negative (missed payments, etc) to report.


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Ahh thank you for the clarification. That’s something I need to look in to more.


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Morning Glory

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2019, 11:51:51 AM »
If you have a spouse/partner, you could take turns opening cards with them and pool your spending.

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2019, 02:52:05 PM »
There are lots of good tricks out there.  The general method I use is to find likely sources of detailed information and then read.  A lot.  The gems are hidden in plain sight.  You just have to dig through a lot of dirt.

One source of information that I think is good is /r/churning.  I've been churning for over 12 years so I haven't read much there, but I've heard it referenced several times and have glanced over it and think it probably is a good place to read up on it.

My guess is that you're going at it too hard and too fast.  If you want to churn for a long period of time, you need to treat it like a marathon and not a sprint.  Personally, I sit down about once a year, collect all of the good offers available then, and apply for them all at once.  I then use the next several months to do the spending and collect the bonuses.  I then put it away for nine months or so and do it all over again.

This year, I was approved for ten new credit cards and am mostly done collecting bonuses and rewards worth $8,165 to me.  Last year I was approved for eight new credit cards and collected bonuses and rewards worth $5,530 to me.

exterous

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2019, 06:58:00 AM »
Another tip I would recommend is to track your card approval dates and closure dates. It's been very useful as banks have started adding in restrictions about X number of applications over the past Y years. If I hadn't been tracking them that would have made churning much harder

Car Jack

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2019, 07:14:14 AM »
Stay away from Chase, Cap One, Amex and Citi.  Everyone else is open season and you likely will be approved.  BBVA, US Bank, Wells, Bank of America.......  Look at Doctor of Credit for their recommendations.  Ignore Credit Karma's recommended cards.....I've been rejected from every one they say I'm about guaranteed to be approved for. 

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 07:34:27 AM »
I've been denied by Chase and Capital One and Barclays.  Chase told me that I've opened too many credits cards recently and Capital One never gave me any explanations.  I don't remember Barclays reason. 

bacchi

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 10:06:35 AM »
Recent Data points-

Me:
US Bank denied a business card. That's a first.
Cap One denied a $500 Savor card at 12/24. Bummer.
Citi card.
Citi business card.
BoA denied at 11/24. The recon rep actually listed all of my recent accounts in the past 24 months. "Reapply in a year," I was told.
BoA website recommended a business card shortly after. Applied and received with a hard pull on personal report.

SO:
Barclays denied at 5/24. SO reconed and had to answer questions regarding income but did receive card. The rejection letter crossed in the mail and it read, "You have too many recent accounts."


Bottom line: Banks, especially the big ones, are getting more strict.

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2019, 09:17:21 PM »
when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2019, 09:47:03 PM »
when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?

For Chase, it's 5/24 and it's all banks.  (Honestly I've not seen reliable reports of other banks using an X/24 rule.  They have lots of other restrictions that are reasonably well known, but not in that form.)

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2019, 05:38:46 AM »
when you guys say 12/24 does that mean that you can't have more than 12 cards opened in 24 months with any bank or that particular bank that you are applying with?

For Chase, it's 5/24 and it's all banks.  (Honestly I've not seen reliable reports of other banks using an X/24 rule.  They have lots of other restrictions that are reasonably well known, but not in that form.)
Thanks

JSMustachian

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 11:21:29 AM »
For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 12:28:26 PM »
For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?

Long, long ago, the rule of thumb was that inquiries become less important after 6 months and drop off after 2 years.  I don't know if that rule of thumb has changed lately.

MasterStache

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2019, 10:32:36 AM »
Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under  5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2019, 10:52:57 AM »
Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under  5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.

I  take the opposite tack and ignore Chase completely because of their 5/24 rule.  Yes, Chase regularly has some of the juiciest offers out there, but their 5/24 rule effectively makes people like me choose between Chase and everyone else.  On a collective basis, everyone else has better offers than Chase.  In other words AMEX+Citi+BofA+USBank+Barclays+etc. > Chase.

Rylito

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2019, 09:09:04 AM »
How do you guys get to open business accounts?  Are you all actually small business owners? 

exterous

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 06:00:30 PM »
How do you guys get to open business accounts?  Are you all actually small business owners?

We have a small side hustle that is an officially registered business.

HPstache

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2019, 06:48:01 PM »
How do you guys get to open business accounts?  Are you all actually small business owners?

You will likely need a Tax ID number... some people say you can use your SS Number though.

Morning Glory

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2019, 07:35:36 PM »
I use my SSN. In any given year I sell a few things online, and get a refund check from the gas company that I have to report as business income.

jpdx

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2019, 08:50:07 PM »
If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.

HPstache

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2019, 08:59:22 PM »
If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.

About a week I'd say.  Chase Ink

Morning Glory

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2019, 06:02:00 AM »
If I may ask a churning-related question here, how long after you are approved for a CC does it take for the card to arrive in the mail? Specifically wondering about the Chase business cards.

About a week I'd say.  Chase Ink

Mine just said my application was in review, then randomly showed up in the mail a week later. No email first to say the card was approved.

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2019, 07:59:12 AM »
Two questions sort of related.
1. I have AMEX Delta card which has $0 intro fee but it's $95 after that.  I don't use the card so I don't want to pay the fee.  What should I do with it, cancel it or does AMEX have an option of downgrading?
2. I was about to apply for B of A cash back card but I'm appalled by their citizenship question.  I have never heard of anyone asking this.  Anyone else find this strange?

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2019, 03:32:06 PM »
I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead.  I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year.  The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.

Stay away from Chase, Cap One, Amex and Citi.  Everyone else is open season and you likely will be approved.  BBVA, US Bank, Wells, Bank of America

Sorry but this is bad advise.  AMEX and Citi are probably the most churner friendly issuers currently.  Wells limits you to one bonus every 15 months (can do one biz and one personal).  BoA is only loose with their business cards, same with US Bank who will not hesitate to shut you down completely if they don't like what they see.

For those that were denied because of too many cc inquiries, how long is it recommended to wait before trying to apply for another offer?

If you are getting these from everywhere, hold off applying for anything for 3 months and you should be good to go again.

Two questions sort of related.
1. I have AMEX Delta card which has $0 intro fee but it's $95 after that.  I don't use the card so I don't want to pay the fee.  What should I do with it, cancel it or does AMEX have an option of downgrading?
2. I was about to apply for B of A cash back card but I'm appalled by their citizenship question.  I have never heard of anyone asking this.  Anyone else find this strange?

1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card.  This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year).  The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.

2. You are churning credit cards.  The objective is to make money off banks stupidity.  Churn BoA more if they offend you.

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2019, 04:57:44 AM »
I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead.  I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year.  The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards?  I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened.


1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card.  This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year).  The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.

2. You are churning credit cards.  The objective is to make money off banks stupidity.  Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this?  For what purpose? 

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2019, 06:52:13 AM »
I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead.  I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year.  The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards?  By applying.  Not trying to be an ass or anything, but it really is that straightforward.  If you know and abide by the rules each bank has regarding applications, it is as simple as applying and hoping for the best.  I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened.  Who is everyone?  If it is only 1 or 2 issuers, try another.  Yes, I have opened 43 cards in the past year or so, however, I have applied to closer to 80.


1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card.  This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year).  The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.

2. You are churning credit cards.  The objective is to make money off banks stupidity.  Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
Annual fee

What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this?  For what purpose?

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this one.  All I'm trying to say is, why are your feelings factoring into this at all?  Why get offended by a bank?  Churning is a math equation.


Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2019, 07:02:32 AM »
I certainly have not been doing this as long as many here, but churning is far from dead.  I don't have a count right now, but I believe I have opened somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 credit cards since I started around May of last year.  The amount of cash and points I have extracted is absurd.
How were you able to open so many cards?  By applying.  Not trying to be an ass or anything, but it really is that straightforward.  If you know and abide by the rules each bank has regarding applications, it is as simple as applying and hoping for the best.  I started in March 2018, I opened maybe 5 cards and everyone is denying me now for too many cards opened.  Who is everyone?  If it is only 1 or 2 issuers, try another.  Yes, I have opened 43 cards in the past year or so, however, I have applied to closer to 80.
Chase, CapitalOne, Citi (they didn't deny me but said that I don't qualify for any bonus points because I had a card with them 2 years ago), Barclays


1. With any AMEX card that you no longer want, wait for the AF to post and after it posts cancel the card.  This will ensure you cancel the card in the 13th month which will keep AMEX happy (they don't like people cancelling in the first year).  The AF will be refunded if you cancel the month it posts to your account.

2. You are churning credit cards.  The objective is to make money off banks stupidity.  Churn BoA more if they offend you.
What is AF?
Annual fee
So what happens if I close a month before rather than a month later?  What do you mean by "they don't like it"?  They don't like it and what happens?
What do you mean by "churn BoA more often if they offend you", I'm afraid to apply as I don't know how the information about citizenship is being used and by whom, why are they asking this?  For what purpose?

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with this one.  All I'm trying to say is, why are your feelings factoring into this at all?  Why get offended by a bank?  Churning is a math equation.
I'm not offended, I'm reluctant to open a card with a bank that asks me for my citizenship info.  This has nothing to do with churning. I was curious to know what others think of this bizarre question.


Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2019, 09:03:01 AM »
@Catica

Not quoting so the chain doesn't get any longer lol.

For Chase, if you have opened more than 5 personal cards in the past 24 months, you will not be approved for anything from them.  This is a hard rule that doesn't have any workarounds beyond pre-approval offers.  Don't apply to anything else from them if you have over 5 new accounts in 24 month, you will be denied 100% of the time.

CapitalOne is a bit tricky.  They are inquiry sensitive (somewhat), and if they think you will not be profitable (have a high credit score), they are less likely to approve you.  You can only get 1 card from the every 6 months - business or personal.  There are tricks that can be used to help get approved -- basically have a high utilization on a card to drop your credit score for a month and apply when your credit score drops.  I recently was able to get an approval doing this.

Citi - most of their cards families have the once in 24 month language.  There are ways around this.  Targeted mailers from them often do not contain the bonus restriction language.  AA Platinum cards being the most common.  You can get these by creating an AA account, but if AA miles aren't useful to you, this won't help you much.

Barclays is very inquiry sensitive.  People who establish an account with them and keep it for a while seem to have better luck.  I have only gotten a business card from them -- I have not been successful getting a personal one so I can't really help with this one.

AMEX - by far the easiest of all.  This is why you want to keep them happy.  They like to see spend on their cards.  They have language in their fine print saying they can take the bonus back if you close your account within the first year, and they do this regularly.  In addition to this, they are likely to blacklist you if you close an account before the first year is up making it very difficult to get approvals from them.  This is why it is critical to close in the 13th month after the annual fee posts.  It will he refunded -- they have specific language in their T&C to this effect so there is literally no reason to close it before the fee posts.

For AMEX you can get 2 credit cards in 90 days with them.  You can hold a total of 5 credit cards at a time with them.  You can have any amount of charge cards with them.  You can apply for the same card after 90 days with them.  I have probably about 15 AMEX credit and charge cards currently.

Bank of America is another odd one.  They like to see an established relationship (checking and/or savings account and/or investments with Merrill Edge).  Even with all of those they are inquiry sensitive.  I wouldn't think much of the citizenship question.  It is common when establishing bank accounts (checking/savings) to be asked about your citizenship.  Not so much for credit cards, but I guess I don't see why it matters.  My wife is a non-citizen and has checking, savings, and 2 credit card accounts with BoA currently.  It is just establishing a risk profile to determine how much, if any, credit to extend you.  A non-citizen represents a higher risk.

BoA has CC rules as well, but they generally aren't much of a factor since you will be denied for other things before you hit their limits most likely.  I believe they are -- 2 in 6 months, 3 in a year, 4 in two years maximum.  This is for personal cards only -- business cards is anything goes.  I've only been able to get 1 personal card from BoA and I am their ideal banking customer (lots of assets with Merrill Edge).

US Bank - inquiry sensitive and helps to have an established banking relationship with them.  Easier than BoA but similar.

Navy Federal Credit Union - super easy, but I'm not sure how you will get an account as a non-citizen.  Can get a new card every 90 days.

I think that sums up most of it.

dezfreeze

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2019, 10:42:50 AM »
I've been able to get around limitations by also churning for checking account bonuses.  Has allowed me to get several Suntrust, BBVA, Wells Fargo, BB&T, PNC cards I had otherwise would have been rejected for because of too many recent account openings.  They see an established account with some deposits and it seems to help with approval for the cards.  Then I can hit them for $500 bonus for checking account, and multiple credit card bonuses all at once.  Then I repeat with my wife's info.

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2019, 12:40:59 PM »
I've been able to get around limitations by also churning for checking account bonuses.  Has allowed me to get several Suntrust, BBVA, Wells Fargo, BB&T, PNC cards I had otherwise would have been rejected for because of too many recent account openings.  They see an established account with some deposits and it seems to help with approval for the cards.  Then I can hit them for $500 bonus for checking account, and multiple credit card bonuses all at once.  Then I repeat with my wife's info.

How many of those actually have worthwhile CC bonuses though?  Wells Fargo is good.  I've looked at PNC and don't recall ever seeing anything worthwhile.  SunTrust, BBVA, and BB&T I've never looked at their cards.

One other somewhat good one I left off my list that is super easy to get cards with is BMO Harris.  I believe their current bonuses are effectively $350, $250, and $200.  You can do 2 the same day and only get 1 hard pull.  I did the $350 and $250 same day as did multiple other people in my area.  I think everyone that attempted got approved, and we all have absurd numbers of inquiries and accounts.

Catica

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2019, 04:22:24 AM »
@Catica

Not quoting so the chain doesn't get any longer lol.

For Chase, if you have opened more than 5 personal cards in the past 24 months, you will not be approved for anything from them.  This is a hard rule that doesn't have any workarounds beyond pre-approval offers.  Don't apply to anything else from them if you have over 5 new accounts in 24 month, you will be denied 100% of the time.
I have 2 cards with Chase which I opened in the past year and when I applied for a 3rd one I didn't get approved.  I got a letter in the mail stating that I opened too many cards recently.  My husband was able to open 3.

CapitalOne is a bit tricky.  They are inquiry sensitive (somewhat), and if they think you will not be profitable (have a high credit score), they are less likely to approve you.  You can only get 1 card from the every 6 months - business or personal.  There are tricks that can be used to help get approved -- basically have a high utilization on a card to drop your credit score for a month and apply when your credit score drops.  I recently was able to get an approval doing this.
I don't have a single card with CapitalOne and got rejected on the first try without any explanation.  I tried again with different card from them and the same thing happened so I have no idea what their problem is.

Citi - most of their cards families have the once in 24 month language.  There are ways around this.  Targeted mailers from them often do not contain the bonus restriction language.  AA Platinum cards being the most common.  You can get these by creating an AA account, but if AA miles aren't useful to you, this won't help you much.
I opened a card and was waiting for my bonus points and never got them.  When I called them they said I had a card with them in the last 2 years and don't qualify for the bonus

Barclays is very inquiry sensitive.  People who establish an account with them and keep it for a while seem to have better luck.  I have only gotten a business card from them -- I have not been successful getting a personal one so I can't really help with this one.
Got a rejection without explanation.  I never had Barclays card but have a savings account with them.  So, again, no clue what their issues are

AMEX - by far the easiest of all.  This is why you want to keep them happy.  They like to see spend on their cards.  They have language in their fine print saying they can take the bonus back if you close your account within the first year, and they do this regularly.  In addition to this, they are likely to blacklist you if you close an account before the first year is up making it very difficult to get approvals from them.  This is why it is critical to close in the 13th month after the annual fee posts.  It will he refunded -- they have specific language in their T&C to this effect so there is literally no reason to close it before the fee posts.
I guess I'll wait before I cancel. 


Bank of America is another odd one.  They like to see an established relationship (checking and/or savings account and/or investments with Merrill Edge).  Even with all of those they are inquiry sensitive.  I wouldn't think much of the citizenship question.  It is common when establishing bank accounts (checking/savings) to be asked about your citizenship.  Not so much for credit cards, but I guess I don't see why it matters.  My wife is a non-citizen and has checking, savings, and 2 credit card accounts with BoA currently.  It is just establishing a risk profile to determine how much, if any, credit to extend you.  A non-citizen represents a higher risk.
Maybe you don't care, but I do care a lot about who is profiling me and for what purpose. Once you respond "YES" to the citizenship question they ask if you have a dual citizenship and if so, they want to know which other countries you are a citizen of.  Why do they need to know that???????????  And if it is so common when establishing bank accounts to be asked about citizenship, why have I never been asked this by any other bank???  I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before.  So I don't think it's so common as you say.  And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008.  I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used.  I do not want to be oblivious.

US Bank - inquiry sensitive and helps to have an established banking relationship with them.  Easier than BoA but similar.
I don't think I tried US Bank

Navy Federal Credit Union - super easy, but I'm not sure how you will get an account as a non-citizen.  Can get a new card every 90 days.
Never heard of Navy Federal Credit Card Union, so I obviously haven't tried them.

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2019, 07:04:55 AM »
I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before.  So I don't think it's so common as you say.  And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008.  I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used.  I do not want to be oblivious.

I have applied for 45 new checking accounts in the past year.  Asking about citizenship is not uncommon.  Like I said before, they are establishing a risk profile.

Not sure what more I can say, just trying to give you some insight since I have a fair amount of experience doing this in the past year, but churning is far from dead.  Try and read up on the rules various banks have and perhaps you will have more success.  Good luck!

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2019, 11:12:47 AM »
Maybe you don't care, but I do care a lot about who is profiling me and for what purpose. Once you respond "YES" to the citizenship question they ask if you have a dual citizenship and if so, they want to know which other countries you are a citizen of.  Why do they need to know that???????????  And if it is so common when establishing bank accounts to be asked about citizenship, why have I never been asked this by any other bank???  I have opened many checking/savings accounts and credit cards and was never asked this question before.  So I don't think it's so common as you say.  And this is obviously fairy recent that they started asking this question because I have a checking account with B of A and was not asked this question when opening it back in 2008.  I want to know why they ask these questions and how this information is being used.  I do not want to be oblivious.

I'm not certain, but it may have to do with the "Know Your Customer" laws.  In the US I think these were passed into law in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

I understand the general profiling concern.  But I'm curious, what does it matter if someone knows your citizenship or dual citizenship?

MasterStache

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2019, 04:28:43 PM »
Yeah we went at it pretty heavily at first before the Chase and Barclay rules were instituted. We’ve backed off the last year or so though. We’ll be under  5/24 pretty soon. I’ve opened several business cards in that time frame. Much of what we do these days is dictated by our travel plans over the next year. Chase points will come in handy for a big trip we are planning out west next year.

I  take the opposite tack and ignore Chase completely because of their 5/24 rule.  Yes, Chase regularly has some of the juiciest offers out there, but their 5/24 rule effectively makes people like me choose between Chase and everyone else.  On a collective basis, everyone else has better offers than Chase.  In other words AMEX+Citi+BofA+USBank+Barclays+etc. > Chase.

Well Barclays has the 6/24 rule. Cap One has denied me several times. Finally landed a Spark Biz card from them. Amex has denied me on a couple cards. I have quite a few cards from US Bank and BofA already. For the trip we are taking next year I have determined that Chase cards will benefit us best. Once I get done with this round of Chase again I'll try hitting up other cards starting next year.

Lmoot

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2019, 08:37:32 PM »
I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2019, 10:27:26 PM »
I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.

Sign up bonuses trump interest free loans in just about every single situation.  You may want to take a look at it.  Also, having a high utilization on a 0% card will hamper your ability to get new cards more than (proper) churning will.

As a simple math exercise, let's say you have 100k of credit extended to you at 0% for 12 months across all your cards.  Let's say you also put it in a 3% interest bearing account -- your net is $3k.

That much cash back can be exceeded quite easily from 5 CC SUBs converted to cash -- CIP, CIU or CIC, CIP2, Cap1 Savor or Venture, NFCU Flagship Rewards (or just about any other card with a SUB really).

I suspect my assumptions for credit extended and interest received are quite high as well which pushes the benefit even further to churning.  I don't care either way, just saying that perhaps you should look into it and consider all options.

Lmoot

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2019, 04:35:15 AM »
I don't churn because I don't want to compromise my ability to qualify for cards/ high limits. Personally I try not to open cards, by taking advantage of existing cards that offer 0% purchase/BT special promotions. I have at least 5 cards that offer 0% promos once or twice per year or more. I may not get sigh up bonuses, but I get a basically free loan for 12-24 months.

Sign up bonuses trump interest free loans in just about every single situation.  You may want to take a look at it.  Also, having a high utilization on a 0% card will hamper your ability to get new cards more than (proper) churning will.

As a simple math exercise, let's say you have 100k of credit extended to you at 0% for 12 months across all your cards.  Let's say you also put it in a 3% interest bearing account -- your net is $3k.

That much cash back can be exceeded quite easily from 5 CC SUBs converted to cash -- CIP, CIU or CIC, CIP2, Cap1 Savor or Venture, NFCU Flagship Rewards (or just about any other card with a SUB really).

I suspect my assumptions for credit extended and interest received are quite high as well which pushes the benefit even further to churning.  I don't care either way, just saying that perhaps you should look into it and consider all options.

Oh I have no doubt it could earn me more. Perhaps I shouldn’t have chimed in on a churning thread; didn’t mean to go off-topic.  I guess the main reason why I haven’t done churning is that I am already at the threshold in terms of average length of credit, and it’s much easier to fix a lower score because of utilization, than because of length of credit, which only time can fix.

Also, I have found ways to indefinitely carry on 0% interest opportunities. A combination of 0% balance transfers offers, and transferring my monthly balances between multiple cards that offer free balance transfers. But I eventually run into the same issue I would probably run into regarding churning, I simply don’t earn enough to get high enough limit to qualify for any real big earnings. But thank you for the information. Perhaps one day it will be a good fit for me.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 04:37:27 AM by Lmoot »

DadJokes

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2019, 07:45:46 AM »
I have to send in proof of business name & address to Chase. There's not a single Chase Bank in my state, so I then have the option to mail or fax the information.

I expect the government to still be using mail and fax, but how is there not a way to submit this information online? I don't even know where to send a fax for free, and I'm not planning on waiting two weeks for snail mail.

secondcor521

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2019, 09:25:48 AM »
I have to send in proof of business name & address to Chase. There's not a single Chase Bank in my state, so I then have the option to mail or fax the information.

I expect the government to still be using mail and fax, but how is there not a way to submit this information online? I don't even know where to send a fax for free, and I'm not planning on waiting two weeks for snail mail.

There used to be email-to-fax programs out there that would let you send a couple of pages for free.

Toad

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2019, 11:40:44 AM »

There used to be email-to-fax programs out there that would let you send a couple of pages for free.

I use Tiny Fax for things like this.  Not free, but nearly -- charged per page sent...don't recall how much but probably $0.50 or something per page.  I think it has more to do with security than anything.  Banks see a fax as more secure perhaps.

malacca

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2019, 11:17:15 PM »
Catica

The US is getting more and more intrusive. Unless you are the POTUS - then you don't have to disclose anything!

After 9 / 11, the country changed. "Foreigners" became more suspect - even though we all are descendants of recent immigrants.

And under the current POTUS the attitude towards foreigners has shifted to the negative.

I was in the Polish suburb of Chicago last week and overheard a Polish guy complaining because he was chewed out by some MAGA fuck for speaking - get this - Spanish!

Give it ten years and things will right themselves. Foreigners are the heart of the economy and business rules the USA!


MOD NOTE: Please keep politics to the off topic subforum. Cheers!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 07:58:27 AM by arebelspy »

malacca

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2019, 06:48:52 AM »
OK, here is a summary of the my strategy for CC churning.

Chase is best but they have their 5/24 rule. But that doesn't apply to Chase business cards ** if you get them before you have 5/24 personal **

This strategy will get you the most cards in the shortest time and allow you to repeat it much sooner.

1. Get as many Chase business cards as possible. You don't need a tax number for these - just use your SS. And use your name for the business. If you have a company name they will want to verify all sorts of shit.

2. After getting all the Chase business cards you can / want, get the juicy Chase cards - 5 of them. After 5, you will have to wait 2 years. Keep the timing so once you are near meeting the spending requirements you already have a new card on the way. Most have a three month limit on spending enough to get the bonus. In general, spending is $1000 a month for 3 months.

3. Get as many other juicy personal cards as you can. Get them as fast as you can while meeting the spending requirements. There are few AA cards with NO spending requirements. The idea here is to get as many in the shortest amount of time - so you then will all be over the 24 month rule - in 24 months or less from now.

4. Only get non-Chase business cards that are not reported on your credit report for the next 2 years or so (until you have less than 5 cards within the last 24 months left on your credit report). 

5. Once you are back to under 5/24, repeat.

In my relatives case, he spends $10K a month on cards for his business. So he applied for a new card every month after he had his 5 Chase cards. In that year he had 10 or so cards and met the spending bonus requirements.

So he had several Chase business cards, 5 personal Chase cards, and 10+ other bank cards - all in less than 2 years.

He has slowed down a bit and is getting only non-Chase business cards. He has to wait 22 months from his last personal card he received and he will be at 0/24.

He is still trying to figure out how the using the mileage and hotel points works. That is another side of churning. Anyway, he hasn't spent a dime on hotels or flights since starting churning.

** Tip: when applying just put down Sole Proprietorship rather than LLC or whatnot - even if you have an LLC. They won't ask for any paperwork. **


Engineer93

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2019, 12:54:10 PM »
I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use.  I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred.  Any recommendations? 

DadJokes

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2019, 01:06:46 PM »
I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use.  I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred.  Any recommendations?

How about Chase Ink Business Preferred?

Padonak

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2019, 02:03:32 PM »
Ptf

Engineer93

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Re: Credit card churning, how to continue?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2019, 06:26:01 PM »
I've got a big purchase coming up (over $5,000) and I'm trying to figure out which card to use.  I already have the Capital One Venture and Chase Sapphire Preferred.  Any recommendations?

How about Chase Ink Business Preferred?

Doesn’t matter that I don’t own a business?  Yes I read the previous posts but just want to confirm.