Communications & Tech Discussion Thread #2

[Daley]

What's your view on KaiOS Daley?

Meh. Smartphone lite with a D-pad, T9 and a dialpad, basically. That's what all of them try to do now with 4G/VoLTE "feature phone" handsets, instead of just being a phone. Battery life suffers, plenty of distractions, terrible interface. Apparently nobody actually wants phones anymore, except a tiny subset of the elderly and a handful of cranky rebels.

[robartsd]

Hoping that someone can help me. I have 2 old Verizon flip / slide phones without removable SIM cards. I had them on page plus wireless plans where I could get 100 mins for $10 that didn't expire for 3 months. It gave my kids cell service for the year for about $40. As the kids are young and prone to losing phones, the minutes expired and the phone numbers were relinquished and now page plus only sells NEW service for LTE phones. They would still support the phones had the minutes not lapsed :-/

I am not interested in buying phones that allow my kids to use data or play games, these were pure burner phones. I also don't want to get locked into paying monthly for minutes that we won't use. Are there any remaining options for Verizon MVNOs?

I was using this plan for my own cell service. I purchased a Moto E4 recently to replace my (hated) Samsung Intensity (a family member's old phone that I adopted when my 2006 flip phone's battery was no longer suitable for my minimal needs). Technically I'm still using this plan, but I chose the Moto E4 because it is compatible with 4G LTE on Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint (plus has a removable battery), so I can take it to whatever carrier I want. I was surprised that Page Plus reset my balance expiration to 3 months after LTE activation. LTE pay as you go on Page Plus provides more minutes that CDMA phones ($0.06/min instead of $0.10/min).

Another forum member suggested Tello (Sprint network) - their pay as you go plan is cheaper and balance doesn't expire as long as there is some usage each month - I could probably get down to $20/year with them; but, I'd also be tempted to go spendypants and purchase Tello's 100 minute/unlimited text/500 MB plan for $6/month and actually use some mobile data (other than occasionally tethering to DW's phone on a T-Mobile unlimited plan).

Motorola did recently roll out the last security update they plan to provide for this phone (about 2 years after original 2017 release). Android Version is 7.1.1.

[alsoknownasDean]

What's your view on KaiOS Daley?

Meh. Smartphone lite with a D-pad, T9 and a dialpad, basically. That's what all of them try to do now with 4G/VoLTE "feature phone" handsets, instead of just being a phone. Battery life suffers, plenty of distractions, terrible interface. Apparently nobody actually wants phones anymore, except a tiny subset of the elderly and a handful of cranky rebels.

Fair enough. I've seen a few basic phones, but most of them are 2G only or 2G/3G only. We're still a few years off closing the 3G networks here though, we've only recently shut down our 2G networks.

I assume that the more 'traditional' feature phone operating systems aren't set up with VoLTE support. I've even seen feature phones running Android. I wonder if there's VoLTE support in S40 (if it's still used anywhere)?

It's a bit unfortunate. Since the ASP of dumbphones is so low, people not being prepared to design 'traditional' dumb phones with VoLTE access, so they end up getting whatever cut-down smartphone operating system that works. That or they're 2G only, because only customers in developing markets still buy those phones...right?

If all of the US networks are closing their 3G networks, then surely that's going to cause issues for people from overseas who travel to the US. I know my phone supports very few of the LTE bands used in the US, but having UMTS 850 means it'd work fine on AT&T for 3G. Am I expected to buy a new phone to travel to the US?

What a mess.

[Daley]

What a mess.

Yup.

The thing to remember is that the original production GSM spec through to 3G UMTS all had a voice first model as a bridge to the PSTN, which meant that the DAC and bridge between the wireless network to the phone was simple. 4G LTE is a pure IPv6 data network - or data only. Remember: it's VoLTE - voice service bolted onto LTE, and they were still ironing out the kinks after the networks deployed. You remember how difficult it was for most everyone to implement GAN/UMA/VoWiFi (especially on Android and iOS) on their phones despite the spec being released with 3G over a decade ago, and many networks supporting it with BBOS, S60 and WP7+, and couldn't get it quite right until after they released VoLTE capable handsets? It was because you're dealing with a purely VoIP telephone connection on a mobile device to connect to the PSTN through the packet network/internet.

Want to know why old feature phone operating systems can't handle VoLTE and battery life is so awful? There you go. You can't just slap a silicon chip in there and keep using the same software. It's why all VoLTE capable feature phones are smartphone lite operating systems.

[alsoknownasDean]

What a mess.

Want to know why old feature phone operating systems can't handle VoLTE and battery life is so awful? There you go. You can't just slap a silicon chip in there and keep using the same software. It's why all VoLTE capable feature phones are smartphone lite operating systems.

Got ya.

Yeah I get that VoLTE is all data only. I guess nobody saw the point in adding 4G support to the feature phone operating systems of the day when 4G was being rolled out, and by the time people wanted feature phones with VoLTE, the operating systems previously used for feature phones were obsolete? I remember that my old Nokia E51 was able to run a VoIP client, and isn't VoLTE just VoIP over LTE? Admittedly S60 on the E51 was probably closer to what KaiOS is today than a 'dumb phone' :)

The issue I have is just the lack of standardisation of 4G bands around the world. In the 2G days if you had a quadband phone you'd probably get service with most GSM carriers around the world. With 3G, maybe 850/900/1900/2100 and that split 1700/2100 thing T-Mobile US uses, and again you'd be fine on most GSM carriers (maybe with something else for Japan). With 4G/LTE...it's a bit trickier. Hopefully this is fixed with 5G (hah!).

[robartsd]

Fair enough. I've seen a few basic phones, but most of them are 2G only or 2G/3G only. We're still a few years off closing the 3G networks here though, we've only recently shut down our 2G networks.

Only AT&T has already shut down 2G, but all major US carriers have announced 2G sunset dates. Verizon will be the first to shut down 3G. If you really want a non-LTE feature phone and have decent T-Mobile coverage, that might be a reasonable choice.

AT&T - 2G shut down 12/31/2016, 3G to shut down 12/31/2021 (can no longer add non-LTE phones to network)
Sprint - 2G to shut down 12/31/2021, 3G to shut down 12/31/2022 (currently still require CDMA capable phones to join network)
T-Mobile - 2G to shut down 12/31/2020, no 3G shut down announced
Verizon - 2G and 3G to shut down 12/31/2019 (can no longer add non-LTE phones to network)

[Daley]

T-Mobile - 2G to shut down 12/31/2020, no 3G shut down announced

Bit of a misnomer, honestly, given that T-Mobile already shut down their entire 1900MHz 3G network to re-farm to 4G LTE in favor of pushing everyone to band 12 VoLTE for phone service, excuse the pockets where they didn't have 700MHz spectrum holdings. Once their 2G network gets shut down, no 850/1900 3G handset is going to work on T-Mobile's network save for the majority of Oklahoma, Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska, West Virginia, North Carolina, Mississippi, Vermont, Maine and parts of other states like Illinois, Missouri, Oregon and Texas. No telling how long that'll last once they integrate Sprint's spectrum holdings and equipment into their network.

[alsoknownasDean]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have larger batteries than flagships?

I've been looking to replace my HTC, and was considering both new midrange units and refurbished flagships, but the new midrange units might have 4000mAh batteries (or larger), but the flagships retailing at more than double the price new have batteries that are maybe 3000mAh (and of course refurbished/used would have less capacity still).

There's a whole lot of value from sub A$500 devices, especially from the Chinese OEMs or refurbs. I couldn't justify paying $1000+ these days.

I'm also thinking about getting my grandmother a new phone (she's using an old Huawei smartphone I used to own and it's a bit of a pain to use). There's a throwaway Google account on it, but I think in the long run I'd probably either set up another Google account for the next phone, or just skip it altogether. I've noticed that Samsung have their own appstore preinstalled on their phones, and the Samsung A20 seems like good value. I wonder if it's any good? It's that, or purchase a refurbished iPhone 7 (she's got an iPad so iOS isn't such a bad option).

[dang1]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have l..

I always have a battery case on my Galaxies, past and present; adds a comfortable heft to these too thin phones. Combo totals often exceed 5k mAhs. Once carried an S7 with a 7.5k zerolemon.

Refurb flagships have plenty of oomph left for great price off Ebay. My primary daily driver is an S9+, sub 400 bucks months ago, does great on avg 100/gb mo data use. Figure a refurb S8 would have no trouble keeping up with an new A20 for around the same price.

[alsoknownasDean]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have l..

I always have a battery case on my Galaxies, past and present; adds a comfortable heft to these too thin phones. Combo totals often exceed 5k mAhs. Once carried an S7 with a 7.5k zerolemon.

Refurb flagships have plenty of oomph left for great price off Ebay. My primary daily driver is an S9+, sub 400 bucks months ago, does great on avg 100/gb mo data use. Figure a refurb S8 would have no trouble keeping up with an new A20 for around the same price.

Yeah there's some good value there, especially from some less common brands, although an S9 was about $A400 refurbished, plus whatever a battery replacement costs a few months down the track. Battery cases are a good idea, I had a cheap one on my old iPhone 5 back in the day.

Are brands like Oppo available in the US? There are some impressive handsets for the money from Chinese OEM's.

Either midrange phones or previous gen flagships represent great value, buying the latest and greatest is expensive.

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