Communications & Tech Discussion Thread #2

[Daley]

What's your view on KaiOS Daley?

Meh. Smartphone lite with a D-pad, T9 and a dialpad, basically. That's what all of them try to do now with 4G/VoLTE "feature phone" handsets, instead of just being a phone. Battery life suffers, plenty of distractions, terrible interface. Apparently nobody actually wants phones anymore, except a tiny subset of the elderly and a handful of cranky rebels.

[robartsd]

Hoping that someone can help me. I have 2 old Verizon flip / slide phones without removable SIM cards. I had them on page plus wireless plans where I could get 100 mins for $10 that didn't expire for 3 months. It gave my kids cell service for the year for about $40. As the kids are young and prone to losing phones, the minutes expired and the phone numbers were relinquished and now page plus only sells NEW service for LTE phones. They would still support the phones had the minutes not lapsed :-/

I am not interested in buying phones that allow my kids to use data or play games, these were pure burner phones. I also don't want to get locked into paying monthly for minutes that we won't use. Are there any remaining options for Verizon MVNOs?

I was using this plan for my own cell service. I purchased a Moto E4 recently to replace my (hated) Samsung Intensity (a family member's old phone that I adopted when my 2006 flip phone's battery was no longer suitable for my minimal needs). Technically I'm still using this plan, but I chose the Moto E4 because it is compatible with 4G LTE on Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint (plus has a removable battery), so I can take it to whatever carrier I want. I was surprised that Page Plus reset my balance expiration to 3 months after LTE activation. LTE pay as you go on Page Plus provides more minutes that CDMA phones ($0.06/min instead of $0.10/min).

Another forum member suggested Tello (Sprint network) - their pay as you go plan is cheaper and balance doesn't expire as long as there is some usage each month - I could probably get down to $20/year with them; but, I'd also be tempted to go spendypants and purchase Tello's 100 minute/unlimited text/500 MB plan for $6/month and actually use some mobile data (other than occasionally tethering to DW's phone on a T-Mobile unlimited plan).

Motorola did recently roll out the last security update they plan to provide for this phone (about 2 years after original 2017 release). Android Version is 7.1.1.

[alsoknownasDean]

What's your view on KaiOS Daley?

Meh. Smartphone lite with a D-pad, T9 and a dialpad, basically. That's what all of them try to do now with 4G/VoLTE "feature phone" handsets, instead of just being a phone. Battery life suffers, plenty of distractions, terrible interface. Apparently nobody actually wants phones anymore, except a tiny subset of the elderly and a handful of cranky rebels.

Fair enough. I've seen a few basic phones, but most of them are 2G only or 2G/3G only. We're still a few years off closing the 3G networks here though, we've only recently shut down our 2G networks.

I assume that the more 'traditional' feature phone operating systems aren't set up with VoLTE support. I've even seen feature phones running Android. I wonder if there's VoLTE support in S40 (if it's still used anywhere)?

It's a bit unfortunate. Since the ASP of dumbphones is so low, people not being prepared to design 'traditional' dumb phones with VoLTE access, so they end up getting whatever cut-down smartphone operating system that works. That or they're 2G only, because only customers in developing markets still buy those phones...right?

If all of the US networks are closing their 3G networks, then surely that's going to cause issues for people from overseas who travel to the US. I know my phone supports very few of the LTE bands used in the US, but having UMTS 850 means it'd work fine on AT&T for 3G. Am I expected to buy a new phone to travel to the US?

What a mess.

[Daley]

What a mess.

Yup.

The thing to remember is that the original production GSM spec through to 3G UMTS all had a voice first model as a bridge to the PSTN, which meant that the DAC and bridge between the wireless network to the phone was simple. 4G LTE is a pure IPv6 data network - or data only. Remember: it's VoLTE - voice service bolted onto LTE, and they were still ironing out the kinks after the networks deployed. You remember how difficult it was for most everyone to implement GAN/UMA/VoWiFi (especially on Android and iOS) on their phones despite the spec being released with 3G over a decade ago, and many networks supporting it with BBOS, S60 and WP7+, and couldn't get it quite right until after they released VoLTE capable handsets? It was because you're dealing with a purely VoIP telephone connection on a mobile device to connect to the PSTN through the packet network/internet.

Want to know why old feature phone operating systems can't handle VoLTE and battery life is so awful? There you go. You can't just slap a silicon chip in there and keep using the same software. It's why all VoLTE capable feature phones are smartphone lite operating systems.

[alsoknownasDean]

What a mess.

Want to know why old feature phone operating systems can't handle VoLTE and battery life is so awful? There you go. You can't just slap a silicon chip in there and keep using the same software. It's why all VoLTE capable feature phones are smartphone lite operating systems.

Got ya.

Yeah I get that VoLTE is all data only. I guess nobody saw the point in adding 4G support to the feature phone operating systems of the day when 4G was being rolled out, and by the time people wanted feature phones with VoLTE, the operating systems previously used for feature phones were obsolete? I remember that my old Nokia E51 was able to run a VoIP client, and isn't VoLTE just VoIP over LTE? Admittedly S60 on the E51 was probably closer to what KaiOS is today than a 'dumb phone' :)

The issue I have is just the lack of standardisation of 4G bands around the world. In the 2G days if you had a quadband phone you'd probably get service with most GSM carriers around the world. With 3G, maybe 850/900/1900/2100 and that split 1700/2100 thing T-Mobile US uses, and again you'd be fine on most GSM carriers (maybe with something else for Japan). With 4G/LTE...it's a bit trickier. Hopefully this is fixed with 5G (hah!).

[robartsd]

Fair enough. I've seen a few basic phones, but most of them are 2G only or 2G/3G only. We're still a few years off closing the 3G networks here though, we've only recently shut down our 2G networks.

Only AT&T has already shut down 2G, but all major US carriers have announced 2G sunset dates. Verizon will be the first to shut down 3G. If you really want a non-LTE feature phone and have decent T-Mobile coverage, that might be a reasonable choice.

AT&T - 2G shut down 12/31/2016, 3G to shut down 12/31/2021 (can no longer add non-LTE phones to network)
Sprint - 2G to shut down 12/31/2021, 3G to shut down 12/31/2022 (currently still require CDMA capable phones to join network)
T-Mobile - 2G to shut down 12/31/2020, no 3G shut down announced
Verizon - 2G and 3G to shut down 12/31/2019 (can no longer add non-LTE phones to network)

[Daley]

T-Mobile - 2G to shut down 12/31/2020, no 3G shut down announced

Bit of a misnomer, honestly, given that T-Mobile already shut down their entire 1900MHz 3G network to re-farm to 4G LTE in favor of pushing everyone to band 12 VoLTE for phone service, excuse the pockets where they didn't have 700MHz spectrum holdings. Once their 2G network gets shut down, no 850/1900 3G handset is going to work on T-Mobile's network save for the majority of Oklahoma, Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska, West Virginia, North Carolina, Mississippi, Vermont, Maine and parts of other states like Illinois, Missouri, Oregon and Texas. No telling how long that'll last once they integrate Sprint's spectrum holdings and equipment into their network.

[alsoknownasDean]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have larger batteries than flagships?

I've been looking to replace my HTC, and was considering both new midrange units and refurbished flagships, but the new midrange units might have 4000mAh batteries (or larger), but the flagships retailing at more than double the price new have batteries that are maybe 3000mAh (and of course refurbished/used would have less capacity still).

There's a whole lot of value from sub A$500 devices, especially from the Chinese OEMs or refurbs. I couldn't justify paying $1000+ these days.

I'm also thinking about getting my grandmother a new phone (she's using an old Huawei smartphone I used to own and it's a bit of a pain to use). There's a throwaway Google account on it, but I think in the long run I'd probably either set up another Google account for the next phone, or just skip it altogether. I've noticed that Samsung have their own appstore preinstalled on their phones, and the Samsung A20 seems like good value. I wonder if it's any good? It's that, or purchase a refurbished iPhone 7 (she's got an iPad so iOS isn't such a bad option).

[dang1]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have l..

I always have a battery case on my Galaxies, past and present; adds a comfortable heft to these too thin phones. Combo totals often exceed 5k mAhs. Once carried an S7 with a 7.5k zerolemon.

Refurb flagships have plenty of oomph left for great price off Ebay. My primary daily driver is an S9+, sub 400 bucks months ago, does great on avg 100/gb mo data use. Figure a refurb S8 would have no trouble keeping up with an new A20 for around the same price.

[alsoknownasDean]

Why is it that midrange smartphones seem to often have l..

I always have a battery case on my Galaxies, past and present; adds a comfortable heft to these too thin phones. Combo totals often exceed 5k mAhs. Once carried an S7 with a 7.5k zerolemon.

Refurb flagships have plenty of oomph left for great price off Ebay. My primary daily driver is an S9+, sub 400 bucks months ago, does great on avg 100/gb mo data use. Figure a refurb S8 would have no trouble keeping up with an new A20 for around the same price.

Yeah there's some good value there, especially from some less common brands, although an S9 was about $A400 refurbished, plus whatever a battery replacement costs a few months down the track. Battery cases are a good idea, I had a cheap one on my old iPhone 5 back in the day.

Are brands like Oppo available in the US? There are some impressive handsets for the money from Chinese OEM's.

Either midrange phones or previous gen flagships represent great value, buying the latest and greatest is expensive.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Daley]

It's been a long while, but this seems relevant and worth posting for the sake of awareness.

Context.

It's been no secret that I've had contentious feelings towards America Movil and Tracfone Wireless over the past decade. However, since the great T-Mobile/Sprint merger and Sprint's prepaid division divestment to Dish (who now owns Boost and Ting) with the intention of "creating a new fourth national wireless carrier" (as US Cellular gives a "what about us" death stare) with the remaining bits of Sprint's network that hasn't already been cannibalized for T-Mobile shut down in less than a year - Verizon now has its eyes on purchasing Tracfone Wireless (and all its subsidiary brands) for $6.9 billion USD.

The MVNO industry is in rough shape these days. For all the beef I had with Slim on the terms of service policies and lousy customer support and sketchy Lifeline dealings, Tracfone's presence was still the 800lb gorilla in the room pushing lower wholesale pricing for everyone in the industry with around 21 million subscribers between the three MNOs, and they're one of the largest Lifeline providers in the country, in a country of over 340 million subscriber lines. (The second largest MVNO is Consumer Cellular at only 4 million.) Of those 21 million subscribers, only 13 million are on Verizon's network. Verizon has also historically balked at providing Lifeline services, had some of the highest cost mobile price plans and wholesale pricing, and has deliberately let their copper phone network deteriorate for years despite hundreds of thousands of people in their network area having no alternative.

There's talk of possible regulatory divesting the AT&T and T-Mo MVNO customers on Tracfone to approve the merger, but Verizon has also made it clear that they'll want to try and convert as many Tracfone customers over to their network with the buyout.

This isn't great, folks.

Remember, there is no regulatory requirement for network operators to provide any sort of third party access to their networks, let alone at any reasonable rate in this country. The MVNO industry literally exists solely based on a promise by the big three (at this point) to do so, and we all know how good AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon are at keeping their promises when record profits are on the line.

Also remember that when I first published the guide in these forums over nine years ago (wow), the common going rate for PAYGO MVNOs wasn't uncommon to charge 5-10¢/minute, SMS, and MB of data, and even the best going prices on sub-$35/month packages didn't provide anywhere near what they do today. Also remember what you used to get with postpaid service back then. I also warned about the potential gutting of the industry with the boutique pseudo-MVNO prepaid brand introductions by AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon. As of 2Q2020, none of the big three officially report wholesale customer numbers anymore. And outside of vague promises of roaming interoperability, VoLTE has also basically killed handset interoperability between carriers for everything but a handful of the most expensive flagships, too... and there's still a Verizon model divide even with that.

MVNO customers are a fraction of the subscribers in this country, and we only still have this option because of promises made by three behemoth corporations who've left a trail of multi-billion dollar promises strewn dead on the side of the road. Now, the only true major player exerting any leverage against the three is about to be bought out by one of them, which means that wholesale leverage disappears almost entirely for the one making the purchase, Verizon.

We need meaningful telecom reform and regulation in this country for the sake of the user, but I'm not holding my breath. In a way, this is a bit of a screed, yelling into the darkness knowing that it won't do any good. But, as MVNO customers, you should at least be aware. Ask yourself what happens when our roughly ten percent of the market might become one percent with even just one of the big three, and most of the subscribers in that ten percent are on these plans not by choice like yourselves, but out of financial necessity... like me?

May you go in peace. Be well, everyone.

[robartsd]

@Daley, thanks for the update.

I just paid my $10 ($10.58 with taxes/fees) for another 120 days of coverage on PagePlus. I really appreciate that MVNOs have provided a place to get affordable coverage for very lightly used lines (I tend to only use about $1 of my credit each month). I'd miss that.

[Daley]

I know it's not great news, but it's worth at least being aware of what's going on in the industry when you rely on mobile service through an MVNO. It's why I posted it.

@robartsd it's especially worth knowing for users like yourself who are on one of the Tracfone subsidiary companies and specifically on a Verizon MVNO (Page Plus, Total Wireless, and including some Straight Talk, Tracfone and NET10 plans). More than half of Tracfone's customers are on Verizon towers, and the pool of remaining Verizon MVNOs aren't what I'd call huge hitters. We're talking Ting (Dish), RedPocket, US Mobile, Selectel, Greatcall, Credo, Comcast and Charter as the only remaining established "major" Verizon MVNO players, and Verizon didn't even loosen up their wholesale requirements enough for most new MVNOs historically to even survive past six months before around 2015. Keep in mind, too, not even Comcast and Charter have broken six figure subscriber rates (much like everyone else on this list), Ting didn't add Verizon service until a little over a year ago, and only about half of these MVNOs are Verizon exclusive.

I'm hoping for the best here, but it's mindful to be realistic.

[tj]

I wasn't aware that Dish (or Sprint before them?) had purchased Ting.

[grantmeaname]

DISH, not Sprint. They bought Ting in August 2020, the month after they closed on Boost.

[geekette]

I know it's not great news, but it's worth at least being aware of what's going on in the industry when you rely on mobile service through an MVNO. It's why I posted it.

@robartsd it's especially worth knowing for users like yourself who are on one of the Tracfone subsidiary companies and specifically on a Verizon MVNO (Page Plus, Total Wireless, and including some Straight Talk, Tracfone and NET10 plans). More than half of Tracfone's customers are on Verizon towers, and the pool of remaining Verizon MVNOs aren't what I'd call huge hitters. We're talking Ting (Dish), RedPocket, US Mobile, Selectel, Greatcall, Credo, Comcast and Charter as the only remaining established "major" Verizon MVNO players, and Verizon didn't even loosen up their wholesale requirements enough for most new MVNOs historically to even survive past six months before around 2015. Keep in mind, too, not even Comcast and Charter have broken six figure subscriber rates (much like everyone else on this list), Ting didn't add Verizon service until a little over a year ago, and only about half of these MVNOs are Verizon exclusive.

I'm hoping for the best here, but it's mindful to be realistic.

I just re-upped on Red Pocket for a year.  Their $100/year plan quietly added unlimited text and a lot more talk (that I never use).  I hope they stick around.

[robartsd]

@robartsd it's especially worth knowing for users like yourself who are on one of the Tracfone subsidiary companies and specifically on a Verizon MVNO (Page Plus, Total Wireless, and including some Straight Talk, Tracfone and NET10 plans). More than half of Tracfone's customers are on Verizon towers, and the pool of remaining Verizon MVNOs aren't what I'd call huge hitters. We're talking Ting (Dish), RedPocket, US Mobile, Selectel, Greatcall, Credo, Comcast and Charter as the only remaining established "major" Verizon MVNO players, and Verizon didn't even loosen up their wholesale requirements enough for most new MVNOs historically to even survive past six months before around 2015. Keep in mind, too, not even Comcast and Charter have broken six figure subscriber rates (much like everyone else on this list), Ting didn't add Verizon service until a little over a year ago, and only about half of these MVNOs are Verizon exclusive.

At least last time I bought a device, I choose one that I could use on any major network (Moto G4 - downside is that it's stuck on Android 7.1.1 at security patch level July 1, 2019), so if the acquisition goes through and Verizon negatively impacts my plan, I can look at MVNOs on other networks relatively easily. The wider issue of a major decrease in total MVNO subscribers is still troubling.

[Daley]

At least last time I bought a device, I choose one that I could use on any major network (Moto G4 - downside is that it's stuck on Android 7.1.1 at security patch level July 1, 2019), so if the acquisition goes through and Verizon negatively impacts my plan, I can look at MVNOs on other networks relatively easily.

Your only option with that handset is actually going to be T-Mobile by the end of this year, given AT&T doesn't list the G4 as compatable with their VoLTE network... which is a fancy way of saying that it technically is compatible since AT&T's implementation is the generic VoLTE calling stack, but they refuse to support and let it work on the network due to IMEI device whitelists deliberately omitting cheap handsets they didn't sell.

I'm facing the same deadline and headache at the end of the year with my beloved Lumia 640 due to it being a T-Mobile model, only T-Mo broke VoLTE on W10M given their proprietary implementation, so I had to take it to AT&T after the 3G network shutdown. Even though there's a W10M VoLTE stack supported by AT&T, my phone's not on the IMEI whitelist, so I'm screwed unless AT&T indefinitely stays the execution of their 3G network next year like Verizon did this year. Otherwise, my only alternative is to jump into a Lumia 950 in an era where transferring the remaining apps, data and settings to a new device will be herculean, and updating it to LumiaWoA is still not the most battery efficient, has broken camera support, and I'd lose VoLTE voice support anyway, requiring me to use a SIP app to keep receiving phone calls. Worse, as much as I'd like to just downgrade to a flip phone or nothing when this time comes, that may not be a realistic option for either my wife or myself.

There aren't many options if I want/need a handset with a removable battery, third party modern ROM (probably /e/OS at this point), potential VoLTE support, and any potential cross-network usability. No matter what I use, there will be heavy compromise, and I'm likely going to wind up having to port my mobile number to VoIP.ms.

This whole VoLTE interoperability issue just sucks.

T-Mo uses a wholly proprietary implementation, so not many global handsets support it, and it thoroughly breaks VoLTE on third party Android ROMs.

AT&T uses VoLTE IMEI whitelists and a proprietary implementation, and excludes a lot of capable handsets because they weren't sold by them, though some of the handsets they do support won't break VoLTE on third party ROMs.

Verizon is wide open with VoLTE support, even with third party ROMs and has no whitelist, but their primary VoLTE band (13) isn't commonly supported on most GSM LTE handsets, which only leaves bands 2 and 4, which is up in the same chunk of spectrum where T-Mobile's 2G/3G voice network used to be... and you know how well that spectrum worked out for T-Mo with voice services and indoor reception. Plus, you know, the fact that Verizon wants to buy out their largest wholesale MVNO customer.

It's just a hot mess.

The wider issue of a major decrease in total MVNO subscribers is still troubling.

Yeah, it is. I suspect a lot of the shedding of numbers is linked to the economy and pandemic. The majority of users are poor, and the poor are the ones most impacted by the record unemployment and complete lack of any meaningful financial support, so they gotta cut their budget to the bone... which ironically hurts them further, because losing a phone number means losing the ability to try and get another job or unemployment benefits.

[robartsd]

At least last time I bought a device, I choose one that I could use on any major network (Moto G4 - downside is that it's stuck on Android 7.1.1 at security patch level July 1, 2019), so if the acquisition goes through and Verizon negatively impacts my plan, I can look at MVNOs on other networks relatively easily.

Your only option with that handset is actually going to be T-Mobile by the end of this year, given AT&T doesn't list the G4 as compatable with their VoLTE network... which is a fancy way of saying that it technically is compatible since AT&T's implementation is the generic VoLTE calling stack, but they refuse to support and let it work on the network due to IMEI device whitelists deliberately omitting cheap handsets they didn't sell.

As usual, you have a depth of useful knowledge in this space that I find amazing.

[Daley]

At least last time I bought a device, I choose one that I could use on any major network (Moto G4 - downside is that it's stuck on Android 7.1.1 at security patch level July 1, 2019), so if the acquisition goes through and Verizon negatively impacts my plan, I can look at MVNOs on other networks relatively easily.

Your only option with that handset is actually going to be T-Mobile by the end of this year, given AT&T doesn't list the G4 as compatable with their VoLTE network... which is a fancy way of saying that it technically is compatible since AT&T's implementation is the generic VoLTE calling stack, but they refuse to support and let it work on the network due to IMEI device whitelists deliberately omitting cheap handsets they didn't sell.

As usual, you have a depth of useful knowledge in this space that I find amazing.

It doesn't come easy.

[grantmeaname]

The wider issue of a major decrease in total MVNO subscribers is still troubling.

Yeah, it is. I suspect a lot of the shedding of numbers is linked to the economy and pandemic. The majority of users are poor, and the poor are the ones most impacted by the record unemployment and complete lack of any meaningful financial support, so they gotta cut their budget to the bone... which ironically hurts them further, because losing a phone number means losing the ability to try and get another job or unemployment benefits.

Conversely, for a lot of households the pandemic has meant little financial stress and less pressure on household spending - no restaurants, no vacations, no dry cleaning work clothes - meaning that the category is also squeezed on the top from people moving up into traditional postpaid plans for the phone offers or free streaming services.

[Daley]

The wider issue of a major decrease in total MVNO subscribers is still troubling.

Yeah, it is. I suspect a lot of the shedding of numbers is linked to the economy and pandemic. The majority of users are poor, and the poor are the ones most impacted by the record unemployment and complete lack of any meaningful financial support, so they gotta cut their budget to the bone... which ironically hurts them further, because losing a phone number means losing the ability to try and get another job or unemployment benefits.

Conversely, for a lot of households the pandemic has meant little financial stress and less pressure on household spending - no restaurants, no vacations, no dry cleaning work clothes - meaning that the category is also squeezed on the top from people moving up into traditional postpaid plans for the phone offers or free streaming services.

Yup... not as huge a boom during the pandemic for MVNOs as expected, just churn, and the squeeze from both ends probably isn't helping, and then coupled with the potential of Verizon basically converting about a quarter of the entire US MVNO market into direct prepaid with them? It's not... encouraging... longer term.

[alsoknownasDean]

We need meaningful telecom reform and regulation in this country for the sake of the user, but I'm not holding my breath. In a way, this is a bit of a screed, yelling into the darkness knowing that it won't do any good.

What reform do you think would be necessary?

Just interested as we've got a similar trend here with the rise of MNO sub-brands, the recent merger of two major telco companies and the acquisition of the largest MVNO by it's wholesale carrier. Most of the major remaining MVNOs either also offer fixed-line internet services or are part of a major retailer (supermarkets in particular).

I'm bearish on the longer-term prospects for many independent MVNOs because the margins have to be super thin when the ARPU is so low.

[Paul der Krake]

Okay I just looked at tracfone and business practices aside, is it just me or have they really dropped prices lately? I haven't checked them since maybe 2012 but I don't recall seeing plans I would actually consider buying (if it weren't for the lack of international roaming).

[Daley]

We need meaningful telecom reform and regulation in this country for the sake of the user, but I'm not holding my breath. In a way, this is a bit of a screed, yelling into the darkness knowing that it won't do any good.

What reform do you think would be necessary?

The sort of reform that will likely never happen in either of our countries, and general talk that would probably get plenty of angry letters even from this crowd. Spectrum is a finite resource. Make it a utility. Regulate it. Mandate wholesale access.

Okay I just looked at tracfone and business practices aside, is it just me or have they really dropped prices lately?

Not just them, there were some unusual wholesale price drops by both AT&T and Verizon late last year. Nearly everyone's offering 3GB plans for under $20 now. I still don't know how to synthesize that bit into the bigger picture. I don't keep up with this stuff as much as I used to.

[fuzzy math]

So uuh... looking for a late 2021 update on the Verizon MVNO thing.

Am a loyal (and unwilling to waver due to being an on call hospital employee) iPhone user, who needs to get newer than a 6S here pretty soon. Trying to figure out what my best option is going to be. Have Red Pocket right now that got a phone unlocked from an old Walmart plan black Friday deal. Ironically the other Walmart plan phone is unable to be unlocked and neither walmart nor Red Pocket can figure out what the issue is.  So that makes me a bit gun shy of ever considering doing something similar going forward. Haven't seen any great MVNO phone deals either. I do not require Verizon as a tower service or anything special for coverage.

[Daley]

So uuh... looking for a late 2021 update on the Verizon MVNO thing.

Am a loyal (and unwilling to waver due to being an on call hospital employee) iPhone user, who needs to get newer than a 6S here pretty soon. Trying to figure out what my best option is going to be. Have Red Pocket right now that got a phone unlocked from an old Walmart plan black Friday deal. Ironically the other Walmart plan phone is unable to be unlocked and neither walmart nor Red Pocket can figure out what the issue is.  So that makes me a bit gun shy of ever considering doing something similar going forward. Haven't seen any great MVNO phone deals either. I do not require Verizon as a tower service or anything special for coverage.

Buy a carrier unlocked used/refurbished handset if you're looking to save money, otherwise eat the cost of new unlocked because you only get discounts with subsidies and carrier lockdown. Swappa sells used equipment, and Backmarket and Glyde will have refurbished handsets with warranties up to a year. Given the repair lockdowns and difficulty of even replacing batteries with aftermarket in the newer handsets and feature breakage of aftermarket screens, if there's any sort of warranty, it's probably a pretty safe bet at this point. Also, I believe any newer generation than what you have of the US market handsets that's unlocked at this point is going to be compatible with the big three, so you should be able to go with AT&T, T-Mobile or Verizon.

As for MVNOs, I'm still punting people to RedPocket, given their pricing model and plan availability on all three networks, and their pricing being competitive with even the cheapest of T-Mobile plans. They're also officially on the Apple blessed carrier list now. This said, it feels weird to say it, but Verizon is the least objectionable network of the three currently... and that's despite the fact Verizon's working to buy out Tracfone and all its sub-brands, which is basically going to put more than half of the entire US MVNO market directly under Verizon's thumb, and take away the pressure of lower competitive wholesale pricing across the board.

[EchoStache]

I've got 4 lines on Total Wireless for $95/month.  I have a 5th line on Straight Talk, so total monthly is about $150

Mint Mobile is running a special $45 for 3 months or $15/month then 3 months free.

Renewal is $15/month if you prepay for 1 year.  This would put my total monthly cell to $75, saving $75/month $900/year.

Wondering what others experience is with Mint.  It uses T-Mobile's network which I've never used before.

[jamaicaspanish]

DW uses Mint mobile -- it works fine for her in our area -- $15 a month if prepaid for a year (we asked for a discount when renewing and they allowed us a $20 or so credit)
There have been no unresolvable issues

I use Red Pocket -- it works fine for us in our area (I chose the ATT version)
There have been no unresolvable issues
Pro tip -- Buy Red Pocket through their ebay store. They offer like a 30% discount over their regular store price

[geekette]

Definitely check the maps and with local friends to see if T-Mo's coverage will work for you.  It's been a few years, but I found them pretty useless outside of highly populated areas and interstate corridors.

[EchoStache]

Thanks for the tip on Redpocket on E-bay.  They definitely have lower add on fees than Mint, which adds up over 5 lines.  Also, I think its good that you can choose which network i.e. Verizon, AT&T, or T-Mobile.  I assume Verizon will have the best coverage overall?  We'll be traveling a lot for work, so the best coverage in the most areas will be very important for us.

I'm thinking Mint for my oldest two for the 6 month plan that is only $57 each.  They will be paying for their phones after this.

I'll probably do Redpocket for the three lines I'll continue to pay for.

I'll get the $84/year plan for my youngest….she doesn't need much if any data so 1GB/month should be fine.
I'll get the $180 plan for me with 3GB and the $300 plan for wife with 20GB….she uses A LOT of data in part due to extensive face time with her overseas family.

Dropping the two lines and switching carriers will change my yearly cost from $1810 to under $600, or $47/month plus tax.

I love MMM.

[geekette]

I'll get the $84/year plan for my youngest….she doesn't need much if any data so 1GB/month should be fine.
I'll get the $180 plan for me with 3GB and the $300 plan for wife with 20GB….she uses A LOT of data in part due to extensive face time with her overseas family.

Is she using facetime on cellular?  Wifi doesn't count toward your data, of course.

[Done by Forty]

IP Daley,

I've been an Airvoice Wireless customer for years and about a month ago we got a cryptic text about 3G networks going away, so we needed to fill out a form to get a new 5G SIM card mailed out to us asap. After a few weeks the SIM arrived and the switch seemed pretty painless...except I realized after a week or so that I could no longer make or receive calls. Text & data work, oddly: just not calls.

If I reset all the network connections on the phone & typed in all the APN info...I could make one call before the problem resurfaced. I think the problem is that my phone (Pixel 2XL) isn't 5G capable? I dunno.

Anyway, after a week of trying to fix this with Airvoice & about to buy a new phone, I stumbled on a workaround: if I change back to "3G" instead of "LTE preferred" it allows me to make calls. No idea why this would change anything.

I'm concerned about losing the ability to make a call when out driving the kids somewhere, now that the 3G network on AT&T is apparently sunsetted. Any problem with just 'sending it' with the phone as-is?

[alsoknownasDean]

What's LTE coverage in your area like?

If you can activate VoLTE on your current phone it should be OK to continue making calls over LTE (why Americans don't call it 4G I have no idea).

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Done by Forty]

LTE coverage is excellent in the area: it's just that when I select that network preference, I can't call since putting the new SIM in.

Airvoice's customer service also suggested toggling on VoLTE but it doesn't appear to be an option to select from any of the settings I've searched through.

 I've googled a bit and it seems to be a bit of finger pointing: the carrier is saying the phone manufacturer has to enable it, and Google is stating the carrier has to make it available.

https://support.google.com/pixelphone/thread/118319672/how-to-enable-volte-vowifi-on-pixel-2-xl?hl=en#:~:text=Pixel%202%20has%20volte%20and,network%3E%20Enable%20the%20Volte%20option.

[Daley]

If I reset all the network connections on the phone & typed in all the APN info...I could make one call before the problem resurfaced. I think the problem is that my phone (Pixel 2XL) isn't 5G capable? I dunno.

Anyway, after a week of trying to fix this with Airvoice & about to buy a new phone, I stumbled on a workaround: if I change back to "3G" instead of "LTE preferred" it allows me to make calls. No idea why this would change anything.

As of February 22, 2022, AT&T has started to shut down their 3G network forcing people over to VoLTE only calling.

Supposedly, the Pixel 2XL is supported post LTE transition, though AT&T's confidence in any of these models working is literally pre-warned with the very large and ominous phrase on the first page, "Models listed here are not guaranteed to work on the AT&T network." As expected from such a rousing vote of confidence, the reality of the transition has been less than optimal, especially for MVNO customers.

Best thing I can recommend would be forcing the network mode to LTE only (disable any and all network access that isn't LTE in the network profile) and rebooting to see if it helps and pulls proper IMS registration. If it does, it's fixed and you're good. If not, I'd recommend switching MVNOs to a Verizon or T-Mobile based network before replacing phones given the Pixel 2XL should support VoLTE calling on those networks, and I'd make the same network restriction of LTE only either way just to make sure everything is working properly before their own legacy network shutdowns. RedPocket offers service on all three major networks, and they have equal or better plans than Airvoice on both the Verizon and T-Mobile networks. Far cheaper and more environmentally friendly to buy a new SIM card and port your number than replace a perfectly usable phone because [gestures widely] AT&T.

Edit: You can also go into the *#*#4636#*#* service menu to make sure that VoLTE is enabled in the OS, but I'd be careful poking around in those service menus too deep, you can break stuff.

The VoLTE only calling transition in this country is an absolute flaming trainwreck, and it's only going to get worse throughout the rest of the year. Frankly, I was so disappointed with the early stages of the AT&T network shutdown and the handset issues and the lack of third party ROM support and the network attacks and billing issues some AT&T MVNOs had last fall, I just abandoned using AT&T for my own MVNO usage entirely, and warn people off of switching to them unless they already have known good and proven working AT&T compatible VoLTE phone equipment already. T-Mobile is a dumpster fire of spectrum licensing here in Oklahoma, among other problems, so we switched to a Verizon MVNO where crap just works... or just works about as well as you can hope for any more in this day and age. Never thought the day would come when Verizon would be considered the least terrible network option, yet here we are.

Yay planned obsolescence!

Hope this helps.

[alsoknownasDean]

I know I had to turn VoLTE carrier check off for my VoLTE to work properly, but I'm not using a Pixel for YMMV.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[geekette]

I couldn't find a 4g flip phone for my 86 year old mother (that she could actually figure out how to use), so she ended up with a freakin' Jitterbug...  I can't say I'm happy with that, but she can afford it, and she can actually use it.  It's tough getting old!

[Daley]

I couldn't find a 4g flip phone for my 86 year old mother (that she could actually figure out how to use), so she ended up with a freakin' Jitterbug...  I can't say I'm happy with that, but she can afford it, and she can actually use it.  It's tough getting old!

Yeah, feature phones are a dying market, sadly, and the OS options for those feature phones due to VoLTE calling requirements haven't been kind to the user. Everyone in the phone industry only wants to make buttonless smartyphones anymore.

Well, if Android's all you got to work with, at least there's the BaldPhone launcher. I've talked with Uriah Mandel, he's a good egg for doing the work he has and deserves more recognition for it. The launcher honestly deserves more exposure, so more people know about it, too. The UI even has Parkinson's friendly touchscreen input controls.

[Done by Forty]

As of February 22, 2022, AT&T has started to shut down their 3G network forcing people over to VoLTE only calling.

Supposedly, the Pixel 2XL is supported post LTE transition, though AT&T's confidence in any of these models working is literally pre-warned with the very large and ominous phrase on the first page, "Models listed here are not guaranteed to work on the AT&T network." As expected from such a rousing vote of confidence, the reality of the transition has been less than optimal, especially for MVNO customers.

Best thing I can recommend would be forcing the network mode to LTE only (disable any and all network access that isn't LTE in the network profile) and rebooting to see if it helps and pulls proper IMS registration. If it does, it's fixed and you're good. If not, I'd recommend switching MVNOs to a Verizon or T-Mobile based network before replacing phones given the Pixel 2XL should support VoLTE calling on those networks, and I'd make the same network restriction of LTE only either way just to make sure everything is working properly before their own legacy network shutdowns. RedPocket offers service on all three major networks, and they have equal or better plans than Airvoice on both the Verizon and T-Mobile networks. Far cheaper and more environmentally friendly to buy a new SIM card and port your number than replace a perfectly usable phone because [gestures widely] AT&T.

Edit: You can also go into the *#*#4636#*#* service menu to make sure that VoLTE is enabled in the OS, but I'd be careful poking around in those service menus too deep, you can break stuff.

Thanks so much for this info. I looked again in the settings and found two unfortunate bits. Looking at the *#*#4636#*#* menu, it looks like VoLTE is not provisioned on the phone (see attachment). I went into that service menu and the toggle option is greyed out for me: seems I can't turn it on from this menu.

I tried to select LTE only but I only see options for "Preferred network type:"... "LTE (recommended)" and then "3G".

The phone & data are working fine now but it seems like that first link you shared implies that maybe this functionality will be short lived and then I'll be without coverage suddenly. Is that correct?

[alsoknownasDean]

I don't know if this is an issue (maybe @Daley will know), but do carriers even provide VoLTE access to it's MVNOs? Presumably they'd have to if they're killing 3G.

I say this because two of the big three telcos here restrict VoLTE to their own direct customers only and the third only does for postpaid MVNO customers. Although 3G here remains active until at least June 2024. VoLTE and VoWiFi access are part of why I'm currently using a big three provider...I'm still paying a fair price so whatever.

What 4G bands is your device compatible with? If it's AT&T compatible, will it also have the bands for T-Mobile and Verizon? If it's as easy as popping in another carrier's SIM then great.

[zolotiyeruki]

I don't know if this is an issue (maybe @Daley will know), but do carriers even provide VoLTE access to it's MVNOs? Presumably they'd have to if they're killing 3G.

The 3G shutdown finally hit us yesterday morning. We're on Airvoice (an AT&T MVNO), and I had already purchased a Pixel 3a for DW, and it's up and running just fine--VoLTE calls, sms, data, etc.  Oddly enough, our kid's phone on RedPocket (also an AT&T MVNO still appears to have working calls-over-3G, for now.

[Daley]

Thanks so much for this info. I looked again in the settings and found two unfortunate bits. Looking at the *#*#4636#*#* menu, it looks like VoLTE is not provisioned on the phone (see attachment). I went into that service menu and the toggle option is greyed out for me: seems I can't turn it on from this menu.

I tried to select LTE only but I only see options for "Preferred network type:"... "LTE (recommended)" and then "3G".

The phone & data are working fine now but it seems like that first link you shared implies that maybe this functionality will be short lived and then I'll be without coverage suddenly. Is that correct?

Correct. If you have the 3G network set as preferred as it appears in your screenshot, it makes sense that the VoLTE option is currently grayed out. I would try setting it to at least LTE preferred, reboot, and go back into the INFO (4636) menu to see if you have the option to enable VoLTE provisioning at that point. But yes, it may be working now in 3G mode, but eventually it won't once they shut your local 3G towers down if you can't get VoLTE working... and that time is dwindling quickly.

Make sure you're fully updated and running the last Android update on the thing from December 2020, IIRC, too.

Alternately, given you're on a Pixel 2XL Taimen/G011C, and the OS is end of life and if you're sufficiently technically capable to follow instructions and futz with technology, you can get more current builds of Android through LineageOS, which will absolutely have the "LTE only" option in your network settings. Free firmware upgrade for a bit of effort with some security updates and the possibility of it actually working better with VoLTE and AT&T.

Or... just go to a Verizon or T-Mobile MVNO instead given the phone model is supposed to be supported and VoLTE capable on all three networks. If you want to update your firmware to LineageOS, however, I'd go Verizon. T-Mobile VoLTE support with third party ROMs are hit and miss given how T-Mo implements the service on their network. Besides, you're probably going to get better coverage from Verizon than T-Mo anyway. Redpocket's a very reasonably priced Verizon MVNO, and you'll find equal priced plans there to what Airvoice is currently offering.

I don't know if this is an issue (maybe @Daley will know), but do carriers even provide VoLTE access to it's MVNOs? Presumably they'd have to if they're killing 3G.

Yeah, VoLTE is now standard with all US based MVNOs given the 3G network shutdowns. What isn't consistently offered with all MVNOs is Voice over WiFi.

[Travis]

We've been living in Korea for the last three years and moving back to the US this summer. Wife and I have Korean Samsung models. How do we check for US compatibility?

[zolotiyeruki]

We've been living in Korea for the last three years and moving back to the US this summer. Wife and I have Korean Samsung models. How do we check for US compatibility?

AT&T has published a list here: https://www.att.com/idpassets/images/support/pdf/Devices-Working-on-ATT-Network.pdf

[dang1]

Cell Phone Bands https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Guides/cell-phone-networks-and-frequencies-explained

search https://www.phonescoop.com/
look at phone's Network Bands

[Travis]

We used Ting for several years before we moved. Is it still a good option? We will be living in Kansas for the next couple years.

My Samsung does not appear to be US compatible. AT&T and Ting both said no. Long time ago I recall there being a website where you could compare models and get really specific on features to narrow down the phone you want. Any idea what that site is? I really miss the Moto I used to have.

[Daley]

We used Ting for several years before we moved. Is it still a good option? We will be living in Kansas for the next couple years.

Ting is owned by Dish Networks now and uses Verizon primarily now and completely restructured their pricing model though they're one of the few who still offers international roaming, YMMV. The go-to MVNO I recommend these days is RedPocket as a good one size fits most, given they have a range of competitively priced monthly and annual plans on all three major networks at the same price points across the board (yes, three for all intents and purposes - Sprint no longer exists as a separate network entity from T-Mobile).

Best coverage for Kansas is going to be either AT&T or Verizon, but given AT&T's track record and operational policies lately, along with phone compatibility restrictions and general other nonsense, I'd steer you towards Verizon as the least crappy network currently for anyone starting from scratch, and given the international roaming shift to Verizon and LTE band 13 for traveling to this country and how locked down AT&T's network is now with their IMEI whitelisting, I don't blame the industry. If you do your own research for network coverage, restrict coverage to LTE only and ignore either the 3G or 5G networks, voice coverage is LTE only these days or will be soon enough.

My Samsung does not appear to be US compatible. AT&T and Ting both said no. Long time ago I recall there being a website where you could compare models and get really specific on features to narrow down the phone you want. Any idea what that site is? I really miss the Moto I used to have.

Quick cheat-sheet of what the major important LTE bands are with each carrier in this country:
https://www.phonearena.com/news/Cheat-sheet-which-4G-LTE-bands-do-AT-T-Verizon-T-Mobile-and-Sprint-use-in-the-USA_id77933

Network coverage maps (in no particular order):
https://www.cellmapper.net/
https://www.upphone.com/coverage-map/
https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Guides/Coverage

Phone finders by feature (in no particular order):
https://www.phonearena.com/phones
https://www.phonescoop.com/phones/finder.php
https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3
https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones/Phones

MVNO phone plan comparison tool:
https://www.whistleout.com/CellPhones

Unofficially, I've been recommending Whistleout as a one-stop shop for research and information anymore to replace me, though their money making and referral stuff is starting to get a wee bit aggressive.

As for phone recommendations, there's really not much difference anymore... they're mostly all homogeneous amorphous black rectangles now where the competing features are how many ports and buttons can be removed before the customer balks.

Samsung's promising longer Android OS updates than anyone else these days with some of their phones with their own silicon, but they haven't actually had any phones on the market long enough to show how far they'll make good on that promise, or how many timeline cheats and caveats they'll use to cut that time back. The biggest caveat with Samsung devices for long term usage is their proprietary VoLTE stack implementation and custom silicon, which basically kills third party ROM support for support and updates post official support... and given the ability for Android smartphones from 2016 still being viable provided they have VoLTE support and you're running an third party ROM for security updates and still keep up with most software today... worth a long term consideration look when shopping.

I personally recommend either Nokia or Motorola these days, and suggest taking over the warranty and firmware updates post official support, which means shopping with LineageOS support in mind. If you're doing Verizon, I'd recommend either the Moto G7 XT1962-1, G7 Power XT1955-5, or Z2 Force XT1789-04 as the best bang-for-buck used models with existing LineageOS support as they're old enough that official firmware updates are either finished or about finished. In theory, those should work for either AT&T or Verizon, but as you're seeing, your mileage may vary with the AT&T support anymore and whether you're willing to do third party firmware flashing.

[Travis]

Big help as always Daley, thanks. I'll do some homework this week and figure out what I need.

I personally recommend either Nokia or Motorola these days, and suggest taking over the warranty and firmware updates post official support, which means shopping with LineageOS support in mind. If you're doing Verizon, I'd recommend either the Moto G7 XT1962-1, G7 Power XT1955-5, or Z2 Force XT1789-04 as the best bang-for-buck used models with existing LineageOS support as they're old enough that official firmware updates are either finished or about finished. In theory, those should work for either AT&T or Verizon, but as you're seeing, your mileage may vary with the AT&T support anymore and whether you're willing to do third party firmware flashing.

I had a Moto G5 Plus before we came to Korea and ended up giving it to my son as a Wifi-only device after I broke the SIM slot.  The battery lasted forever and it had almost no bloatware so I got a lot of useable storage.  If the model still has some life left in it I'll get another, or whatever looks the most like it.

If Ting is using Verizon's equipment now, does that mean I need to watch out for GSM vs CDMA?

[Done by Forty]

Correct. If you have the 3G network set as preferred as it appears in your screenshot, it makes sense that the VoLTE option is currently grayed out. I would try setting it to at least LTE preferred, reboot, and go back into the INFO (4636) menu to see if you have the option to enable VoLTE provisioning at that point. But yes, it may be working now in 3G mode, but eventually it won't once they shut your local 3G towers down if you can't get VoLTE working... and that time is dwindling quickly.

Make sure you're fully updated and running the last Android update on the thing from December 2020, IIRC, too.

Unfortunately, still not able to switch VoLTE in the 4636 menu after having LTE preferred selected after a reboot.

Checked and phone has the lastest update from 2020, so no luck there.

Going to try installing new software from your link.

As far as going to another carrier, if I can't get VoLTE to work on my phone, wouldn't I run into the same problem with them? Apologies if that question is very basic: just not following that part.