Author Topic: Calculating net worth?  (Read 9579 times)

albireo13

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Calculating net worth?
« on: April 02, 2016, 05:53:24 AM »
How do you calculate your net worth? 
Do you include pensions or is it just accounts, investments, and real estate?

Thx,
Rob

overwhelmed

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 06:07:20 AM »

I am also curious about the pension question.
I have a small pension so I know the amount per year but don't know how I would include it with the other accounts etc.

dandypandys

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 06:11:54 AM »
Yes all accounts and debts, not sure about the pension part, but do  use my real estate, zillow can give its worth though not reliable,  some don't- it is personal pref.
I use Mint and Personal Capital to keep track of all it for me, so handy.

neo von retorch

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 07:50:51 AM »
It depends on the purpose of your calculation.

* To track your progress, include all debts and assets (to your preference)
* To calculate financial independence, only include invested assets i.e. anything that will provide income for you in retirement

iris lily

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 08:02:59 AM »
I calculate the amount of my estate, should I drop dead tomorrow. Pensions don't count because they are tied to me beng alive.

I make a sub category for income generating assets, or at least assets that SHOULD generate income..
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 08:06:13 AM by iris lily »

overwhelmed

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 08:35:29 AM »
It depends on the purpose of your calculation.

* To track your progress, include all debts and assets (to your preference)
* To calculate financial independence, only include invested assets i.e. anything that will provide income for you in retirement

Don't mean to hijack but how might you incorporate a pension in one's financial independence? A pension would provide income in retirement but I don't include it in my numbers because it is a specific amount available after I reach 55, not growing like a 401k or other accounts I can continue to build.


Bracken_Joy

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 08:40:24 AM »
I've had Mint fail hard on the NW front- it's usually $5k off from manual calculations at least, and I do NOT have a very high NW, haha. I use this website: https://www.networthshare.com/  Nice visuals as well, for you data nerds. =)

MrDelane

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2016, 08:58:56 AM »
How do you calculate your net worth? 
Do you include pensions or is it just accounts, investments, and real estate?

Thx,
Rob

I do not include pensions for two reasons:

1) We will not receive any pensions until we are 55+, so as of now they are not part of our income, they are only potential income.

2)  Even if we DID receive it right now, I would view it as income, which in a given year might sway my networth but would not automatically be a added to it.  What I mean is that a pension, to me, would be income just like my salary is now.  How much of it I save is up to me.  The amount I save would be part of my networth.

In the same way that you would count the equity you have in real estate but not the future rental income that might come from it, I wouldn't count future pension income as part of my networth.
Nor do I count the remainder of my salary for the year.

Now if you are simply trying to calculate how much money you need to save for retirement, then you may want to take your pension into account, but it still wouldn't be part of your net worth.

As Iris Lily mentioned above, net worth is usually seen as "the amount of my estate, should I drop dead tomorrow."
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:00:31 AM by MrDelane »

neo von retorch

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 09:00:30 AM »
overwhelmed: To be fair, I don't count on SSN, and I don't have a pension, so I can't really comment on that, other than, if you're certain you'll get it, it will definitely affect how much you really need invested for it to last. But it's more complicated. If I was using a spreadsheet and going year by year, I'd start including the pension when I turned 55. But, back to the original question, I would not include a pension in "net worth."

Spork

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 09:27:53 AM »
My opinion is this:

Net worth = Assets - Liabilities 

It should be that simple. 

Assets being anything that is an asset: bank accounts, investment accounts, IRAs, etc.  I go down as far as "cars" because they are still a reasonable size asset (albeit depreciating) and I want to account for the purchase over the life of the car.

Liabilities being loans, credit cards, etc.

Pensions are more difficult.  Normally (as far as I know) they're not terribly guaranteed.  They can dry up and blow away.  (Mine did.)  And the balance seems always unknown.  (I never got any sort of balance statement).  They are nebulous enough that if I were going to account for them, I would just account for them as future income, but not as a present day value calculation.  In other words, I might include it in firecalc/cfiresim ... but I wouldn't hold it in my balance sheet.   I do the same with SS.  I think I have underestimated my SS payment (to be conservative) and included it in firecalc/cfiresim... But I do not try to compute a present day value.

stephQ

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 10:41:11 AM »
My opinion is this:

Net worth = Assets - Liabilities 

It should be that simple. 

Assets being anything that is an asset: bank accounts, investment accounts, IRAs, etc.  I go down as far as "cars" because they are still a reasonable size asset (albeit depreciating) and I want to account for the purchase over the life of the car.

Liabilities being loans, credit cards, etc.

This is basically how I calculate our NW too. Don't have any pensions and do not include social security, so I cannot comment on that. It never occurred to include our car as a part of our NW, but may consider adding it in.

I'm currently trying out wienerdog's FI V2 spreadsheet since I've recently moved away from using Mint. It's a pretty awesome spreadsheet if you're into tracking numbers yourself.

bobechs

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2016, 10:47:48 AM »
Here is my only opinion on the subject.

Suppose you had signed a promissory note for, say, $300,000 to be paid in 15 equal yearly installments beginning on your 60th birthday, a day that remains some years in the future at the time of making the note.  You are now on the hook to pay $20,000 p.a. in real money for a real series of real years.

Would you account for that liability in calculating your net worth? If so, how does that differ from the various rationales offered for dismissing a series of future payments to (rather than from) you in arriving at net worth?

The time value of money means that the liability the note represents must be discounted from the face amount, but it does not diminish it to anything near zero over the term of a normal adult's life.  Select a discount rate (the slightly uncertain part) and the calculation of npv is trivial.

You may be able to beat all or part of the debt by dying insolvent or going bankrupt at some point-- does that axiomatically render the note valueless?   Wouldn't that same principle render a stock portfolio valueless too?

To head off the shape-shifters who will want to discuss the consideration received for making the note as an offset to the future liability let's say the note is in payment of a gambling debt in a place where enforcement of gambling debts is legal.  No mouse hole to run down there.


 

albireo13

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2016, 10:58:06 AM »
I am 60 yo and a few years from retirement.  I can take a pension either as an annuity or as a lump sum.  I am fully vested in my pension.  Assuming I am still alive by then, would not the lump sum payout be included as an asset?

desk_jockey

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 11:06:07 AM »
Suppose you had signed a promissory note for, say, $300,000 to be paid in 15 equal yearly installments beginning on your 60th birthday, a day that remains some years in the future at the time of making the note.  You are now on the hook to pay $20,000 p.a. in real money for a real series of real years. 

If there is a cash lump sum buy-out clause that can be executed at any reasonable time, then I would count it as an asset.  If there is not, then I wouldn’t.   The difference, as iris lily already pointed out, is that SS or a typical pension is tied to you or your spouse being alive.    The funds for a future promissory note would be deducted from your assets when settling your estate.  The unpaid pension would not be. 
 
I would address it is as its own category:   I have a net worth of $X plus a pension of $Y/year beginning at age 60.   That’s the way I’ve seen most people describe it.   

EDIT:  to clarify my point to address bobech's concern below "it" in the first sentence was a pronoun referring to the pension.  It was intended to address the original question on how to evaluate the pension.   I should have put the last two sentences of the first paragraph first, as is it followed the quote, and gave an example of a immediately after the quote referencing what is clearly a liability regardless of timing. Sorry for the confusion.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:18:05 PM by desk_jockey »

bobechs

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 11:27:48 AM »
Suppose you had signed a promissory note for, say, $300,000 to be paid in 15 equal yearly installments beginning on your 60th birthday, a day that remains some years in the future at the time of making the note.  You are now on the hook to pay $20,000 p.a. in real money for a real series of real years. 

If there is a cash lump sum buy-out clause that can be executed at any reasonable time, then I would count it as an asset.  If there is not, then I wouldn’t.   The difference, as iris lily already pointed out, is that SS or a typical pension is tied to you or your spouse being alive.    The funds for a future promissory note would be deducted from your assets when settling your estate.  The unpaid pension would not be. 
 
I would address it is as its own category:   I have a net worth of $X plus a pension of $Y/year beginning at age 60.   That’s the way I’ve seen most people describe it.   

Calculating a note you have made as an asset is an interesting inversion  of accounting principles.

I can sense a path to immense wealth here... but you go first.

Go ahead and make a note to me for $10,000, please list it as an asset on your balance sheet and I'll agree to call it a liability on my part.  Just pay me $5000 (cash only please)as an accommodation,  I'll tear up the note and then we will both be ahead $5000.
Yipee!

edit: 

Look, I know that comment is snarky, but it really does matter whether you account for assets as assets and liabilities as liabilities and account for both.  Calling one the other or ignoring one category and not the other is the kind of sheer amateur accounting that seems to thrive on these boards.

You go on to say that without an early redemption clause any instrument consisting of future receipts (or payments, in the contra-case I propose) ought not be accounted for as an asset (or liability, I suppose.)  Zero coupon bonds fit exactly that description.  Would you say they have no present value?  If so, no one would buy them prior to maturity, nor know how they should be priced if they were so inclined  to buy against all reason and good sense.

You also say that receipts contingent on living to receive them are not subject to valuation in the present.  You might not live to receive them.

Bonds, debentures, notes, stock dividends, appreciation above basis, etc. are all contingent on the issuer, whether it be a sovereign government or other institution, surviving to make the anticipated payment.  That is never guaranteed.  Governments are deposed, nations crumble, banks fail, corporations leave the debt and equity holders high and dry.

Those, you might live not to receive.  Aren't contingencies like that an insurmountable obstacle to assigning a value for drawing a net worth balance in the present?

If assets and liabilities have any correspondence (and let me br clear: I am sure they do) you don't get to count some of them on one side, disregard others on the other side and call it a balance.




« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 02:58:30 PM by bobechs »

fishnfool

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2016, 08:22:56 PM »
I am 60 yo and a few years from retirement.  I can take a pension either as an annuity or as a lump sum.  I am fully vested in my pension.  Assuming I am still alive by then, would not the lump sum payout be included as an asset?
Most certainly you should count it. Mine has a cash value and I get a annual statement. Should I pass on before taking it my spouse will be the benificary of the lump sum payout.

jim555

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2016, 09:26:35 AM »
I think pensions / social security should be counted, discounted to net present value for the income stream.
This is to give a more accurate picture of your situation.
Someone who has 32 years of SS/pension clearly is in a much better position than someone who FIREs at 32 yo with say 8 years of just SS.


FrugalFan

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2016, 10:14:00 AM »
I am 60 yo and a few years from retirement.  I can take a pension either as an annuity or as a lump sum.  I am fully vested in my pension.  Assuming I am still alive by then, would not the lump sum payout be included as an asset?
Most certainly you should count it. Mine has a cash value and I get a annual statement. Should I pass on before taking it my spouse will be the benificary of the lump sum payout.

This is my situation as well and I count it. We will probably use a hybrid approach at retirement where my husband takes the pension in annual income (cost of living adjusted) and I take mine as a lump sum from which we withdraw 4% (can be passed on to our children).

charis

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2016, 10:58:23 AM »
I am 60 yo and a few years from retirement.  I can take a pension either as an annuity or as a lump sum.  I am fully vested in my pension.  Assuming I am still alive by then, would not the lump sum payout be included as an asset?
Most certainly you should count it. Mine has a cash value and I get a annual statement. Should I pass on before taking it my spouse will be the benificary of the lump sum payout.

Mine has a cash value (which I include in my NW) and my husband and children are the beneficiaries.  I could take it out an invest it, which might be better financially, but it's small and I like it as part of my retirement portfolio.

This is my situation as well and I count it. We will probably use a hybrid approach at retirement where my husband takes the pension in annual income (cost of living adjusted) and I take mine as a lump sum from which we withdraw 4% (can be passed on to our children).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 11:33:06 AM by jezebel »

grettman

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2016, 12:52:06 PM »
Regarding whether or not you should or should not include pensions or social security --

I say no.

Net worth is about assets you OWN vs. how much you OWE.  You don't own your pension and you don't own your social security.  While these accounts have ACCRUED funding and are associated to you, they aren't yours.  Not yet at least and they may never come to you.  No pension is guaranteed (even fed employees --- just takes a an act of congress to get rid of that --- true this is highly unlikely but still possible nonetheless).  If your company goes tits up, it is possible to recover some of the pension but not fully....

Keep it out of your NW calculation but certainly use it for retirement planning...


jim555

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2016, 01:54:01 PM »
You could make the argument that investments are not guaranteed, therefore we shouldn't count them? 
A future stream of income is legally owed to someone it should be counted (discounted to NPV).
Pensions have legal standing.
I am not an accountant so I don't follow accounting rules, just my opinion.

Spork

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2016, 02:24:17 PM »
You could make the argument that investments are not guaranteed, therefore we shouldn't count them? 
A future stream of income is legally owed to someone it should be counted (discounted to NPV).
Pensions have legal standing.
I am not an accountant so I don't follow accounting rules, just my opinion.

Sure... sort of.  But I could sell my stock right damn now and get the current cost. 

I can't sell my SS.  I couldn't sell my pension (when I had one... and it did go away pretty suddenly*). 

*I say my pension "went away."  That's a half truth.  The company suddenly decided it was not in their best interest to continue contributing.  Existing contributions stayed and some point many years later I was offered a lump sum settlement.  And at that point: it went into my net worth.  ;)

dandypandys

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2016, 04:03:30 PM »
ok, a newb Q- how does SS work? I pay into it every month, but have never thought about it.

ender

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2016, 05:15:07 PM »
ok, a newb Q- how does SS work? I pay into it every month, but have never thought about it.

This is an article I found very useful understanding SS - http://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-social-security/

wienerdog

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2016, 05:25:38 PM »
This is how they calculate your SS benefits.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

If you log onto the ssa.gov site you can get each year off your earnings and the adjustment.  Put all that in a spreadsheet once then you just have to update the earnings each year and go back and update all the adjustments.

 

MoonShadow

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2016, 05:38:19 PM »
If you wish to include your pension into your net worth, there are several methods to estimate a particular pension's worth; ranging from the complex and accurate down to the simple & rule-of-thumb accuracy.

This is a simple method that I use, because I have a survivorship rule that says that, if I die before I can claim pension benefts; my wife receives 5 years worth of payments.  Also, if I die within the first 5 years of taking pension payments, those first 5 years are promised to my wife.

Therefore; the least amount that my pension is worth to me is my monthly payout estimate, as it is presently, times 60.  (Monthly payment * 12 months * 5 years)

ender

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 06:45:02 AM »
This is how they calculate your SS benefits.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

If you log onto the ssa.gov site you can get each year off your earnings and the adjustment.  Put all that in a spreadsheet once then you just have to update the earnings each year and go back and update all the adjustments.

When I put a spreadsheet together for this I was quite surprised how much money the current formulas estimate for me and my wife in SS income in retirement. If I work until I'm 40 I will be eligible for nearly $20k/year in social security at age 67 (and my wife 1/2 of that if hers is not higher) using 2016 dollars.


Fishindude

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 09:00:19 AM »
I don't think a pension or SS should be considered in Net Worth calculations.
These are income streams

charis

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM »
I don't think a pension or SS should be considered in Net Worth calculations.
These are income streams

I include the cash value of my pension, which I can take out now if I want to, not the future income stream.

bobechs

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2016, 12:18:40 PM »
I don't think a pension or SS should be considered in Net Worth calculations.
These are income streams

Yes, you think.  But you don't think very well.

"Income streams" is not an analytical category that displaces assets and liabilities (even contingent or future) in drawing a net worth balance.

Fishindude

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2016, 12:45:52 PM »
Yes, you think.  But you don't think very well.

"Income streams" is not an analytical category that displaces assets and liabilities (even contingent or future) in drawing a net worth balance.



You're right, I must not think very well, because I don't have a clue what your sentence above is saying.  I do however appreciate your awesome use of vocabulary and the snarky attitude.

Regarding net worth, the way I see it, SS can't be counted as an asset because it is not something that is ever actually yours.  It's not something you can trade, sell, cash in, etc., so has no real "worth" on a financial statement.    Same goes for a pension, unless yours is set up where you can cash it out and take the money in a lump sum.  In this case, I would say that the lump sum amount could be counted as net worth.


aceyou

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2016, 04:18:45 PM »
I count our pensions into our net worth. 

My wife and I are have taught in public education for 10 years.  If my wife and I were to quit education completely, we could immediately withdraw our personal contributions + interest, which add up to about $100,000 for us currently.  We could access this money within a few months if we so chose to.  I include this sum as part of our net worth.  If we quit education, this is real money that we'd shove into VTSAX and use to FIRE. 

More likely though, we will teach until we get our 30 years, when we are 48 years old (since we bought years).  When that happens, we will drop the lump sum from our net worth and choose to receive two pensions.  We won't count the pension as part of our net worth then, but rather decrease our annual spending number by the amount of our combined pension income.  Because we live relatively frugally anyway, our combined pensions will likely exceed our annual spending.  Thus, I suspect that our safe withdrawal rate will be right around 0% at age 48. 

Others have posted equally good ways of looking at it in this thread, but this is the way that works best for me. 

Why Pension is different than Social Security...for me at least.  Many posters are lumping SS and Pension as the same type of beast, thus not counting the pension into net worth.  I disagree with this for those who can get a lump sum payout at any time on the pension.  It's not like I can tell the Fed "hey, I'm gonna peace out on Social Security, don't pay it to me later, just give me a lump sum right now". 

Heckler

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2016, 08:45:59 AM »
My opinion is this:

Net worth = Assets - Liabilities 

It should be that simple. 

Assets being anything that is an asset: bank accounts, investment accounts, IRAs, etc.  I go down as far as "cars" because they are still a reasonable size asset (albeit depreciating) and I want to account for the purchase over the life of the car.

Liabilities being loans, credit cards, etc.
.


That's more than your opinion.   That's the definition of net worth.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_worth


A pension is future income. 

You could create a NW statement as a balance sheet of assets minus liabilities, and then a separate plan of annual income minus spending and plan annual savings.  The pension would come in as income in your future years. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:53:59 AM by Heckler »

Heckler

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Re: Calculating net worth?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2016, 08:55:10 AM »
Basically, treat your life like a business, or at least plan it like one. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_plan

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!