What would you do: tenant with dangerous dog

[charis]

You would only be liable for not reporting if the police would have investigated your report and decided to take action? Are you 100% on that, because it doesn't sound logical.

Not quite.  I can't be liable for not reporting because reporting does not inevitably lead to the dog being put down.  If I report then the police make that decision and the liability, if any, passes to the police.  I would only be liable for not reporting if it would inevitably mean that the dog would be put down with no one else making an intervening choice.

Right, but you don't know what the police investigation might reveal. The whole point of reporting is that it may protect someone from a dangerous dog. If the dog previously bit someone else and it was reported, unbeknownst to you, then your report is the second and it could lead to a different result than you can predict without that information.  The idea that your liability is based on a certain result that may or may not occur makes no sense.

[former player]

You would only be liable for not reporting if the police would have investigated your report and decided to take action? Are you 100% on that, because it doesn't sound logical.

Not quite.  I can't be liable for not reporting because reporting does not inevitably lead to the dog being put down.  If I report then the police make that decision and the liability, if any, passes to the police.  I would only be liable for not reporting if it would inevitably mean that the dog would be put down with no one else making an intervening choice.

Right, but you don't know what the police investigation might reveal. The whole point of reporting is that it may protect someone from a dangerous dog. If the dog previously bit someone else and it was reported, unbeknownst to you, then your report is the second and it could lead to a different result than you can predict without that information.  The idea that your liability is based on a certain result that may or may not occur makes no sense.

The dog has been next door for three years, this is a small community and I would have heard if there had been other incidents.

I'm a qualified lawyer in my jurisdiction.  In this jurisdiction I could have liability for allowing the dog to stay on my property beyond what's legally required of me (and I'm getting rid of it as quickly as I legally can and making sure everyone is warned about it before going on the property) but I can have no liability for not reporting it to the police.

[Adventine]

Another thing to consider: how are you going to handle the potential fallout if the dog attacks someone else and the local news and/or social media picks up the story?

[charis]

You would only be liable for not reporting if the police would have investigated your report and decided to take action? Are you 100% on that, because it doesn't sound logical.

Not quite.  I can't be liable for not reporting because reporting does not inevitably lead to the dog being put down.  If I report then the police make that decision and the liability, if any, passes to the police.  I would only be liable for not reporting if it would inevitably mean that the dog would be put down with no one else making an intervening choice.

Right, but you don't know what the police investigation might reveal. The whole point of reporting is that it may protect someone from a dangerous dog. If the dog previously bit someone else and it was reported, unbeknownst to you, then your report is the second and it could lead to a different result than you can predict without that information.  The idea that your liability is based on a certain result that may or may not occur makes no sense.

The dog has been next door for three years, this is a small community and I would have heard if there had been other incidents.

I'm a qualified lawyer in my jurisdiction.  In this jurisdiction I could have liability for allowing the dog to stay on my property beyond what's legally required of me (and I'm getting rid of it as quickly as I legally can and making sure everyone is warned about it before going on the property) but I can have no liability for not reporting it to the police.

I guess my question was more rhetorical. You personally might have heard about something happening in your community (though you don't know what you don't know), but that doesn't change the issue of why reporting is important. There are lots of reasons why the average person doesn't have even information to predict the result of a police investigation (people travel with their dogs, move, adopt from foster families (where bites occurred in my situation)). It's simply not possible to predict liability on something that is likely to occur. I'm not faulting your legal knowledge, just the premise to begin with.

[former player]

You would only be liable for not reporting if the police would have investigated your report and decided to take action? Are you 100% on that, because it doesn't sound logical.

Not quite.  I can't be liable for not reporting because reporting does not inevitably lead to the dog being put down.  If I report then the police make that decision and the liability, if any, passes to the police.  I would only be liable for not reporting if it would inevitably mean that the dog would be put down with no one else making an intervening choice.

Right, but you don't know what the police investigation might reveal. The whole point of reporting is that it may protect someone from a dangerous dog. If the dog previously bit someone else and it was reported, unbeknownst to you, then your report is the second and it could lead to a different result than you can predict without that information.  The idea that your liability is based on a certain result that may or may not occur makes no sense.

The dog has been next door for three years, this is a small community and I would have heard if there had been other incidents.

I'm a qualified lawyer in my jurisdiction.  In this jurisdiction I could have liability for allowing the dog to stay on my property beyond what's legally required of me (and I'm getting rid of it as quickly as I legally can and making sure everyone is warned about it before going on the property) but I can have no liability for not reporting it to the police.

I guess my question was more rhetorical. You personally might have heard about something happening in your community (though you don't know what you don't know), but that doesn't change the issue of why reporting is important. There are lots of reasons why the average person doesn't have even information to predict the result of a police investigation (people travel with their dogs, move, adopt from foster families (where bites occurred in my situation)). It's simply not possible to predict liability on something that is likely to occur. I'm not faulting your legal knowledge, just the premise to begin with.

It's possible I hadn't heard, but I've lived here for 20 years, I hear a fair amount of what is going on and it's well known these people are my tenants, so I think I would have heard if the dog had bitten anyone else in the last 3 years, plus they had references from their previous landlord.

I do get that people are concerned, but the people who are responsible and liable here are the dog's owners, not me! 

[Omy]

I once got excellent references from my "tenants from hell's" former landlord. He just wanted them out of his hair and I unwittingly took them off his hands.

I knew I'd be stuck with these awful people forever if I didn't give them a good reference, so when the time came I said the only positive I could think of ("they always paid the rent") and I didn't answer any other questions.

It was great that you told your tenants you would be honest about the dog having a biting problem. Are there any laws in your jurisdiction that protect the tenant from having to leave if they can't find housing? (In my state, I can't evict or raise rent because of covid).

[former player]

I once got excellent references from my "tenants from hell's" former landlord. He just wanted them out of his hair and I unwittingly took them off his hands.

I knew I'd be stuck with these awful people forever if I didn't give them a good reference, so when the time came I said the only positive I could think of ("they always paid the rent") and I didn't answer any other questions.

It was great that you told your tenants you would be honest about the dog having a biting problem. Are there any laws in your jurisdiction that protect the tenant from having to leave if they can't find housing? (In my state, I can't evict or raise rent because of covid).

They can't stay for any reason after the form of notice I've given them.  They could stay on until I go through the courts to evict them but 1) there is no chance the courts wouldn't grant and enforce the eviction and 2) they would ruin their credit and chances of a future tenancy: usually here the only reason people stay on after being given notice to quit is that it can help to prove they're "involuntarily homeless" and eligible for public housing: this couple wouldn't be eligible for public housing on any grounds whether voluntarily homeless or not.

It doesn't help them that the notice takes effect in July and this is a very big holiday accommodation area so they'll have trouble getting even temporary accommodation at that very busy holiday time of year.  That's their problem, right now I've lost all sympathy.

[GuitarStv]

Mr. Dicey's daughter was in a neighbor's house and was bitten by their dog. She was four at the time. The bite required stitches and she still has slight scarring. She received two payments in the form of annuities: $25,000 at age 21 and $100,000 at age 25, plus medical and legal costs. The dog was not put down; it was sent to a relative immediately after the incident. So yeah, it happens.

When I was about nine I was going door to door selling something for a fundraiser for cub scouts.  I knocked on the door of a house and heard a snarl behind me, and then felt a large dog rip a pretty big chunk out of my back.  I was screaming and bleeding all over the place and someone took me to the hospital.  The chunk of missing flesh was large enough that they couldn't stitch it together, so I had a large bandage on my back for about several months while it healed up.  There's still a good sized scar on my back from it.

Our family didn't sue, and the owner put the dog down immediately.  Could have been much worse.  Dog attacks aren't to be taken lightly.

[former player]

Mr. Dicey's daughter was in a neighbor's house and was bitten by their dog. She was four at the time. The bite required stitches and she still has slight scarring. She received two payments in the form of annuities: $25,000 at age 21 and $100,000 at age 25, plus medical and legal costs. The dog was not put down; it was sent to a relative immediately after the incident. So yeah, it happens.

When I was about nine I was going door to door selling something for a fundraiser for cub scouts.  I knocked on the door of a house and heard a snarl behind me, and then felt a large dog rip a pretty big chunk out of my back.  I was screaming and bleeding all over the place and someone took me to the hospital.  The chunk of missing flesh was large enough that they couldn't stitch it together, so I had a large bandage on my back for about several months while it healed up.  There's still a good sized scar on my back from it.

Our family didn't sue, and the owner put the dog down immediately.  Could have been much worse.  Dog attacks aren't to be taken lightly.

I'm sorry that happened to you, how horrible.

If this dog had so much as broken my skin I would have reported it but he didn't bite down quite that hard or long enough - I've got a nice set of bruises but nothing worse.

[GuitarStv]

Mr. Dicey's daughter was in a neighbor's house and was bitten by their dog. She was four at the time. The bite required stitches and she still has slight scarring. She received two payments in the form of annuities: $25,000 at age 21 and $100,000 at age 25, plus medical and legal costs. The dog was not put down; it was sent to a relative immediately after the incident. So yeah, it happens.

When I was about nine I was going door to door selling something for a fundraiser for cub scouts.  I knocked on the door of a house and heard a snarl behind me, and then felt a large dog rip a pretty big chunk out of my back.  I was screaming and bleeding all over the place and someone took me to the hospital.  The chunk of missing flesh was large enough that they couldn't stitch it together, so I had a large bandage on my back for about several months while it healed up.  There's still a good sized scar on my back from it.

Our family didn't sue, and the owner put the dog down immediately.  Could have been much worse.  Dog attacks aren't to be taken lightly.

I'm sorry that happened to you, how horrible.

If this dog had so much as broken my skin I would have reported it but he didn't bite down quite that hard or long enough - I've got a nice set of bruises but nothing worse.

The dog didn't bite too hard then - hopefully that's a good sign for future attacks.

[BlueHouse]

I don't really know what the trainer was told, it's my suspicion that they weren't told everything because otherwise, as others have said, a responsible trainer (and this one is young but highly qualified) wouldn't have had the dog off the leash and unmuzzled in a public place where lots of dogs are exercised.  It's not knowing all the facts that is one of the things that has made me reluctant to report.  Once I report what happens is out of my control: the trainer could be prosecuted and make the local papers for it which would ruin a career they've trained for years for, and if I don't know for certain how much they were at fault I'm reluctant to do that.

It really doesn't matter even if the trainer was told that the dog had no problems, was well behaved, etc.  Professionals make assessments based on their own observations.  Not on what some customer tells them about their precious doggo.  The trainer is absolutely responsible for this and if I were the dogs owners, I would be livid that the dog wasn't protected from acting in the only way it knew how.  Yeah, the dog isn't trained yet.  Trainers exist to make dogs safe for people and people safe around dogs. 

Why does everyone want to protect the trainer?  Training a dog in a public space with no leash?  That's insane.  No professional would do that.  Or at least they shouldn't.  It's so irresponsible. 

I'm not an expert: I think the trainer was wrong and made a mistake but I don't know everything that led up to that mistake so it's hard for me to judge that they should be put in the position of potentially losing their career over it.
[/quote]
You're not in that position.  Report the facts to the authorities (including wherever this trainer got their credentials) and let the authorities decide. 

[Miss Piggy]

I do get that people are concerned, but the people who are responsible and liable here are the dog's owners, not me!

I don't know...I think maybe you're being too lenient. There's "responsible and liable" and there's "concerned for the safety of my fellow humans." A person has no idea what a dog is capable of until it's too late.

I'll just put this link here with a very, very tragic story. (Trigger warning. If you are prone to nightmares or overly empathic, don't even click the link. It's the worst dog mauling story I've ever seen.)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jacqueline-durand-dog-sitter-dog-attack/

[waltworks]

When I was growing up the dog would have immediately been shot. My experience is that if a dog attacks a human once, it'll do so again, it's just a matter of time. Zero tolerance.

-W

[Cassie]

I rescued a big dog that bit it’s owner after the owners hit him one too many times when the dog was in pain from a medical condition. I had the dog for 6 years until it died and it was the best dog I ever had. It saved me from a off leash attack by a pit bull. So obviously Walt I disagree.

[GuitarStv]

I rescued a big dog that bit it’s owner after the owners hit him one too many times when the dog was in pain from a medical condition. I had the dog for 6 years until it died and it was the best dog I ever had. It saved me from a off leash attack by a pit bull. So obviously Walt I disagree.

Context around a bite matters a lot.

A dog that is hit/attacked and in pain when it bites is quite a different animal than a dog that aggressively approaches a human and attacks without provocation.

[waltworks]

I rescued a big dog that bit it’s owner after the owners hit him one too many times when the dog was in pain from a medical condition. I had the dog for 6 years until it died and it was the best dog I ever had. It saved me from a off leash attack by a pit bull. So obviously Walt I disagree.

I said "attacks". Biting in response to surprise or pain isn't an attack, but maybe I wasn't clear enough.

-W

[TeresaB]

I think you should report it even if you know you and your dog were the first and second offense. That way there's a paper trail that already exists the next time it attacks someone.