Author Topic: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook  (Read 1816 times)

LightStache

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U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« on: April 02, 2022, 02:10:34 PM »
I'm not a frequent Seeking Alpha reader, but this article popped up in my news feed and it pretty much lays out how I've felt about the real estate market over the past year:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4498666-us-housing-is-a-dead-man-walking


Wondering if you all agree/disagree with the numerous points made? Also do you think attempting to time the real estate market is the same as trying to time the stock/bond markets?

Villanelle

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2022, 04:26:12 PM »
I do think that attempting to time the market is attempting to time the market, whatever market that might be.

That said, I'm in the process of selling a fairly long-term rental, so maybe I'm a dirty market timer.  I'd say our main motivations are just not wanting to deal with landlording anymore, and also our last chance to not pay cap gains.  (We have a military exemption which turns the 2/5 allowance into 2/15, and if we renewed for another year, we'd be past that.)  But the fact that the market is crazy probably also influenced our decision.  I don't know that the Top Is In, but I do know that we will make quite a nice profit, and that's more than enough to make me comfortable selling.  If it goes up another 20% in the next year (or whatever), I don't think I'll kick myself because I'm not attempting to sell at the top.

SwordGuy

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM »
Timing the market if you're going to use that property as a rental property is fairly straightforward to do.

If the property will make the necessary profit at the purchase and renovation cost and reasonably expected rent, you buy it.  Otherwise, you don't.

I have zero idea how to time the market for speculating on rising sale prices.

Jon Bon

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2022, 07:21:07 AM »
Well that website is behind a paywall, but generally I don't trust those websites. I feel they just hire 2 people to write opposite views of the same subject.

That being said, I for sure thought RE was going to go back to normal for years, lets say the 1% rule normal at least. But now I am not so sure.

First is the price of building a home, have you been to Lowes lately or tried to hire a contractor? The price of inputs is off the charts. I think we have had a poor attitude about kids getting into the trades for too long, now we have shortages.
Secondly is government intervention. They have an incentive to keep prices steady. So between QE and interest rates

I just don't see how prices are going to go down anytime soon. At worst they keep up with inflation. I think the conversation is going to move to where people want to move. I think the major cities might be topped out, with enough people moving to Boise/Park City/Gulf Shores etc to start to make a difference. Sure prices in small towns with closed manufacturing might go down, but as for anywhere with growth I think you will continue to see substantial gains.

But again I am just some guy on the internet......

chemistk

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2022, 08:33:20 AM »
There's some good data in there but the thesis is misguided.

One of the arguments the author is using to support the data is that the housing market is particularly bullish, suggesting that a 'top' of sorts is here. His assertation is that the 'real' stock of housing units per capita (adjusted) has remained relatively unchanged and is just as healthy as it was before Covid. He suggests that there's ultimately a shortage of sellers, more or less because current homeowners may not have much incentive to move with WFH being an acceptable form or work and coupled with the unwillingness to lose on a 2-3% mortgage rate.

He also argues that shrinking household sizes (millennials having fewer kids), decreasing immigration, and rising sqft/occupant signals that there's enough houses but people aren't adjusting to the size they need yet.

Ultimately he thinks that we're in for a correction, with mortgage rates rising and a projection of new home construction to beginning to decrease, the glut of wanting to buy right now to not miss out on the market is going to exhaust the supply of capable buyers and prices will begin to fall again.

Unfortunately I can't say that he's completely correct about all of that, one of the factors he's choosing to turn a blind eye towards is the falling real wage. He takes a passing swipe at it, calling it out as ridiculous, but not factoring it in as a piece in the puzzle that's going to keep younger folks out of the market for a longer time.

Another one is the institutional investor - again he's trying to diminish the impact it's currently having on the market but I don't think he's willing to look at the longer term impacts of investors' ability to buy homes en masse. As people are edged out of the market with rising rates and falling buying power, it's the investors with deep pockets who will probably be the first winners - being able to scoop up homes at a discount and turn them into rentals before younger homebuyers can put all the pieces together.

But the most egregious omission is directly tied to his thesis - there's not enough sellers right now because there isn't anywhere for current homeowners to go. Folks want to capitalize on the appreciation but in order to to so, you've got to be able to move somewhere that's cheaper than what you have right now. Barring cross-country relocation, not everyone can do that and worse I think those who could have already did so in 2020/2021. While WFH is finally rooted in place, I think it's going to be a very slow climb of acceptability as most places are asking people to come in a couple days a week again.

Just because there's technically enough homes right now, doesn't mean that we don't have a shortage. It's like that car-escape puzzle game. All the pieces have to move in a different order to get out of the gridlock - and so long as the car is stuck sitting in traffic, the housing market isn't going to straighten itself out anytime soon.

clifp

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 11:45:02 PM »
There's some good data in there but the thesis is misguided.


Just because there's technically enough homes right now, doesn't mean that we don't have a shortage. It's like that car-escape puzzle game. All the pieces have to move in a different order to get out of the gridlock - and so long as the car is stuck sitting in traffic, the housing market isn't going to straighten itself out anytime soon.

I pretty much agree. He has made a good case why we shouldn't see double digit appreciation in most housing markets, but then lots of smart people made that prediction a couple of years ago for housing, three or four years ago for stocks, and even longer for bonds, and for the most part we've all be wrong.

Inflation coupled with FOMO makes a good case for rising house prices.  The inflation psychology hasn't yet entered consumers' brains. I better buy that Dishwasher, dress, and even steak today since it will more expensive tomorrow, like it did in the 70s and early 80s.   We've already seen FOMO for housing in HCOL areas, if it spreads to the heartland,than all of his models and statistic won't be as important as consumer fear.

Askel

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2022, 07:19:22 AM »
I'm speaking anecdotally here about my small town real estate market (all the hot goss on who's selling for big bucks!), but this article backed up a lot of what I see locally. Lots of people buying houses to.... buy houses. 

Tons of houses being bought up and then end up in some quasi-vacant/short term rental/vacation home/college rental status.  Lots of people with lots of money and no good place to park it. Buy overpriced stocks? Or maybe buy a cheap house in the upper midwest and maybe we can use it for our ski/mtb vacation, maybe airbnb it, or let our kid use it when they go to school up there?

Up until COVID we were still coasting on a surplus of houses from the old copper mining days. Sub $50k houses were plentiful.  Those are long gone. 

Maybe WFH is fundamentally changing things?   We still have way more houses than people, but none for sale.   



chemistk

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Re: U.S. Housing Has a Poor Mid-Term Outlook
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2022, 10:31:22 AM »
I'm speaking anecdotally here about my small town real estate market (all the hot goss on who's selling for big bucks!), but this article backed up a lot of what I see locally. Lots of people buying houses to.... buy houses. 

Tons of houses being bought up and then end up in some quasi-vacant/short term rental/vacation home/college rental status.  Lots of people with lots of money and no good place to park it. Buy overpriced stocks? Or maybe buy a cheap house in the upper midwest and maybe we can use it for our ski/mtb vacation, maybe airbnb it, or let our kid use it when they go to school up there?

Up until COVID we were still coasting on a surplus of houses from the old copper mining days. Sub $50k houses were plentiful.  Those are long gone. 

Maybe WFH is fundamentally changing things?   We still have way more houses than people, but none for sale.

An interesting thought on the subject - does the local/regional market effect the conclusions that a particular author or analyst comes to?

Unlike your situation, where I live is a place people want to be, and there's a serious shortage of homes. But it's also somewhere with much higher than average (for the area) property taxes, no fiber internet, poorer access to regional transportation than other spots in the county, and a generally older stock of homes. And yet people who live in the region or are looking to move to the region are frequently looking at this particular town. There are obvious reasons - it's culturally vibrant for a small town, is highly walkable, there are a large number of events that take place here, and the schools are great.

Further, the demand is probably fairly durable, as even prior to the pandemic housing around here was still very competitive (albeit without the huge jump in prices). There's not much more that can be built and what can be built is taking ages at best.

My parents' town is the same general story, and I will fully admit that it tints my perspective a bit on the housing market - and is probably why there are so many different opinions on the subject.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!