Author Topic: If you haven't been watching mortgage rates, it may be worth considering a refi  (Read 2202 times)

JLee

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

Papa bear

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

What bank and state? I値l be looking around.


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JLee

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

What bank and state? I値l be looking around.


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I went through Garden State Home Loans in New Jersey. They have exceptionally low fees and have been a pleasure to work with thus far.

CarolinaGirl

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They are crazy low in NC too!  3% for 15 yr and 3.5% for 30 yr. 

CorpRaider

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They are crazy low in NC too!  3% for 15 yr and 3.5% for 30 yr.

Where did you see that quote (if you don't mind sharing)?  I've been watching them on Zillow.

Slow&Steady

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I was looking into doing a refi on my primary home last week but got side tracked, thanks for the reminder!

Another Reader

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

That's a good rate, especially for a refinance.  What did you pay in points and fees?

thd7t

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

That's a good rate, especially for a refinance.  What did you pay in points and fees?
I would like to know this too.

sammybiker

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Also would like to know this, please & thank you!

Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

That's a good rate, especially for a refinance.  What did you pay in points and fees?
I would like to know this too.

JLee

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Just an FYI for everyone...I locked 3.5% (30yr conventional) yesterday (float down from a 3.811% lock in early April) and rates are down slightly more today, so you may be able to beat that.  I never expected to beat the 3.75% I had in 2013, but here we are!

That's a good rate, especially for a refinance.  What did you pay in points and fees?
I would like to know this too.

$300 from my previous 3.811%, plus another ~$1300 to extend my 30 day rate lock another 30 days due to delayed closing (though that's separate from this rate, as I would've paid that regardless of the rate adjustment). 

I can post the total fees when I have the final numbers, but it wasn't a whole lot...couple grand all in.

BicycleB

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On roughly what amount of principal?

(Thanks for keeping us informed!)

JLee

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On roughly what amount of principal?

(Thanks for keeping us informed!)

$418k, 5% down.  I qualified for HomePossible which got me a ~0.25% drop.

Another Reader

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I'm confused.  Is this purchase money or a refinance?  Purchase money is usually cheaper.

JLee

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I'm confused.  Is this purchase money or a refinance?  Purchase money is usually cheaper.

Mine is purchase - I two coworkers who were quoted 3.7-3.8% for a refi today (neither qualify for HomePossible).  Given how many people are north of 4%, it seems relevant.

talltexan

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Indeed, I am considering refinancing (if I don't purchase), and I am even considering a 5/1 ARM.

ChpBstrd

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Everyone,
Where do you shop for refinancing? Local banks? Websites? Large national banks?

I filled out a web form a couple years ago from one of the better advertised online lenders to get a refinancing estimate and have been bombarded with spam and robocalls ever since.

The local bank where I originally got my mortgage quoted me about $5k to refinance a $124k loan, so I知 skeptical how anyone is getting below market rates for below market prices. Yet I知 open minded.

Another Reader

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Everyone,
Where do you shop for refinancing? Local banks? Websites? Large national banks?

I filled out a web form a couple years ago from one of the better advertised online lenders to get a refinancing estimate and have been bombarded with spam and robocalls ever since.

The local bank where I originally got my mortgage quoted me about $5k to refinance a $124k loan, so I知 skeptical how anyone is getting below market rates for below market prices. Yet I知 open minded.

Stay away from the on-line lead aggregators.  Call your real estate agent and ask if they can refer you to an experienced broker that will shop your loan to the cheapest lenders and has low fees.  Once you find a good broker, stick with them and send them other business.  I have used one guy on multiple new loans and refis.  Undercuts the competition every time.

v8rx7guy

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I'm close to pulling the trigger for a refi on my personal residence.  15yr, 3.25%, 0 points

ChpBstrd

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Everyone,
Where do you shop for refinancing? Local banks? Websites? Large national banks?

I filled out a web form a couple years ago from one of the better advertised online lenders to get a refinancing estimate and have been bombarded with spam and robocalls ever since.

The local bank where I originally got my mortgage quoted me about $5k to refinance a $124k loan, so I知 skeptical how anyone is getting below market rates for below market prices. Yet I知 open minded.

Stay away from the on-line lead aggregators.  Call your real estate agent and ask if they can refer you to an experienced broker that will shop your loan to the cheapest lenders and has low fees.  Once you find a good broker, stick with them and send them other business.  I have used one guy on multiple new loans and refis.  Undercuts the competition every time.
Interesting. Is there a reason such brokers are only known to real estate agents? Do they advertise?

Another Reader

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They are out there, but you have to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is hard for the consumer to do.  The best brokers work mostly by referral.  A really good agent has a couple in their virtual Rolodex.

monarda

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I'm close to pulling the trigger for a refi on my personal residence.  15yr, 3.25%, 0 points

We're going to do a 12 year cash out refi, 3.125%, no points and practically no closing costs ($149).
Our current loan has 10 years left and is 2.99%,  practically the same rate --  in the refi we'll be getting ~40K cash out.

davisgang90

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

v8rx7guy

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

JLee

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

They get to sell a mortgage vs not selling a mortgage

v8rx7guy

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

They get to sell a mortgage vs not selling a mortgage

Sounded like they were already their mortgage lender.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

JLee

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

They get to sell a mortgage vs not selling a mortgage

Sounded like they were already their mortgage lender.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Ah, I was unaware that USAA kept mortgages.  In that case, who knows...good customer service / not wanting to lose a customer?

ChpBstrd

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

They get to sell a mortgage vs not selling a mortgage

Sounded like they were already their mortgage lender.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Ah, I was unaware that USAA kept mortgages.  In that case, who knows...good customer service / not wanting to lose a customer?

Perhaps they were paid negative points. In exchange for a higher interest rate than was prevailing at that moment in time, the originator ate the closing costs. They will make their money reselling a loan with a higher interest rate than the market, just as bonds sell above par when they have a higher interest rate than new debt.

3.68% is really low, so are we talking about a 15 year loan? It痴 a bargain in any event.

joe189man

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Everyone,
Where do you shop for refinancing? Local banks? Websites? Large national banks?

I filled out a web form a couple years ago from one of the better advertised online lenders to get a refinancing estimate and have been bombarded with spam and robocalls ever since.

The local bank where I originally got my mortgage quoted me about $5k to refinance a $124k loan, so I知 skeptical how anyone is getting below market rates for below market prices. Yet I知 open minded.

amerisave has treated us well for a refi on our last house and our current
national and low fee
easy web system

robartsd

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We bought our forever home last year when I retired from the Navy.

Rates had been going up and we locked in 4.5% buying it down a quarter point.

Got a call from our mortgage lender (USAA) offering no cost refi down to 3.68%.  Done!

Seems, suspicious?  What's in it for the mortgage lender?

They get to sell a mortgage vs not selling a mortgage

Sounded like they were already their mortgage lender.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
The mortgage industry has effectively separated loan origination, loan servicing, and capital investment into three distinct components that can all be handled by different companies for any given loan. Many loan originators also service the loans, maintaining the customer relationship; but very few actually hold the mortgage for any significant period of time. My guess is that USAA originates and services loans but sells the mortgage to investors (probably through Fannie Mae and/or Freddy Mac) retaining the loan servicing rights for a small fraction of the interest charge. From USAA's perspective, when rates drop it is in their best interest to offer their customers a refinance. A third party, not USAA, is collecting the above market rate interest and the borrower shopping a refinance elsewhere would relieve them of the servicing rights, not to mention the value of selling a new loan. USAA is not in the business of investing in mortgages, it is in the business of selling and servicing mortgages.

davisgang90

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Quote
3.68% is really low, so are we talking about a 15 year loan? It痴 a bargain in any event.

30 year.  I'm in no hurry to pay it off.

coffeefueled

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Is no closing cost meaning no costs from the lender, but you still have to pay the state/county tax and fees? We were offered 3.75 (have 4.75% currently) with $615 in closing costs, but we still have to pay around $3500 in state taxes and appraisal to refinance $518k mortgage. That's the best we've seen for a refinance on a loan our size, but I was curious what others thought about the deal...

v8rx7guy

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Is no closing cost meaning no costs from the lender, but you still have to pay the state/county tax and fees? We were offered 3.75 (have 4.75% currently) with $615 in closing costs, but we still have to pay around $3500 in state taxes and appraisal to refinance $518k mortgage. That's the best we've seen for a refinance on a loan our size, but I was curious what others thought about the deal...

I'm pretty sure the $3,500 in state taxes are just your normal property taxes.  They usually have to cash out your escrow account during a refi, so they need taxes back in after refi.  I might be wrong, but $3,500 in state sales tax does not seem right. 

No cost usually means no loan origination fees (typically 0-1.5%) and maybe no application fee from the lender, but yes you'll still have to pay for appraisal, inspection, title insurance, etc which is probably the $615.

monarda

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Our refi didn't use an appraisal. The tax assessed fair market value (a relatively low number) is what our credit union uses free of charge. That was a high enough value for us, so our closing costs were $149

Kem

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Folks, I'm currently on an FHA 30 year loan (bought in 08, refied in 12) at 3.875% fixed with 194K balance (dumbly purchased pre-literate) - the monthly cost is now low for my area and the PMI drops off in 9 months.

I see no lower percentages available in Indiana today, however wouldn't mind extending the term with a fha streamlined refi at the same rate to increase cashlfow for taxable VTI investments.

A couple of weeks ago a leading member from the SEC and from FINRA spoke at a SIFMA roundtable and dictated that the pertinent movers at the fed are strongly suggesting that a negative prime would have short term economic and political benefits that far outweigh the long term negatives.   I am not agreeing with this sentiment but....

1 - how frequently can one refi a home mortgage? "if the rates go much lower I will likely use a streamlined refi at the same rate to push out my term.
2 - what would be the impact on US home refinancing rates at a negative prime.

Thanks folks

talltexan

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As far as how frequently to refinance: it depends on your loan balance.

In HCOL's, it's not uncommon to see loan balances of $1,000,000 or more. With that balance, paying one month's payment in closing costs to decrease your annual interest by $25,000 (i.e. one quarter of a point) is a no-brainer. Based on your mortgage balance, it doesn't seem as though you're in a HCOL.

One rule of thumb is to go ahead and refinance if you make your closing costs back in 12-18 months. Knowledge of your own plans for moving, etc., might be a reason to violate that rule.

In my own case, contemplating refinancing a loan at 4.75% in 2012 made me realize that our family just needed to move, instead, which was a much more ambitious (and beneficial) project.

Kem

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Thankfully I do not live in a HCOL area.  I have been offered jobs at 2-2.5x what I currently make, however once I run the cost of living analysis for the required location our quality of life would go down, our savings rate would go down, or I would have to live separate from the family while increasing the savings rate.   The first 2 options are a no-go as we already live rather frugally and why would I want to earn more to work longer.  The final option would allow me to FI in 5 years rather than 9 at the cost of missing much of my young children's life - highly unpalatable.
 
The FHA PMI drops off in 9 months.  Excluding that and the 1% home repairs high interest savings fund ---
My monthly payment comes to 16.72% of my base gross salary or 22.4% of my base net salary.  It is significantly less when I toss in the yearly commissions.

The 12-18 month return on refinance fees is something I can get behind.  Thanks for that.

I am still curious, should the fed go negative prime, what the impact on US home mortgages will be. 

talltexan

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I'm having trouble answering the other part of the question because the word "prime" is one I've seen typically applied by commercial banks, while I'm used to the Fed setting the Fed Funds Rate (today it's 2.5%), which is what it charges those banks to lend them money. I cannot imagine them making the Fed Funds rate explicitly negative, although it may become negative in real terms if inflation should rise above 2.5%.






Kem

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Thanks for the thought cycles.

talltexan

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If there is one number in the news to watch as a proxy for what mortgage rates will do, it's the 10-year bond yield for US treasury bonds. I start every day here:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/TextView.aspx?data=yieldYear&year=2019

Chiron

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Today I locked a 5/1 jumbo ARM refi at 2.5% with no points, normal closing costs and conditioned on buying a $25k 13 month CD at the bank.  This is in TX.  It pays to shop around.  I first got the lowest no-relationship loan estimate I could find, then went to the relationship bankers to try to get them to beat it for moving assets over.

PathtoFIRE

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Today I locked a 5/1 jumbo ARM refi at 2.5% with no points, normal closing costs ... in TX.

When I first saw this thread, I looked around and didn't see anything close to our 3.5% 10/1 ARM jumbo. Still not seeing, but this is purely internet searches, and we're in Texas, so I'm curious how and where you found something like this.

Chiron

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Started at RJ with their published rate + 1/8 discount for enrolling in auto-debit. Now down to 2.625 with $1200 lender fee.  Used my loan estimate from them to match at BBVA, which then gave me an additional 1/8 discount for the CD purchase.  BBVA also gave me better terms on reserves and reappraising my property without a seasoning period (I just purchased it this year) because it's a professional loan product.  Depending on loan size and amount of transferable assets you have (including IRAs) you can work the private bank departments of other regional or national banks to try to do better.

sailinlight

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Today I locked a 5/1 jumbo ARM refi at 2.5% with no points, normal closing costs ... in TX.

When I first saw this thread, I looked around and didn't see anything close to our 3.5% 10/1 ARM jumbo. Still not seeing, but this is purely internet searches, and we're in Texas, so I'm curious how and where you found something like this.
If you have access, we locked on a cash-out refi jumbo 5/1 ARM at Navy Federal Credit Union at 2.875 with no points a few days ago.

PathtoFIRE

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I've reached out to the loan officer at the nearby BBVA, told him what a "friend" recently got, we'll see how far that gets me. And my wife would be eligible for NFCU, and there's a branch near my house, so I'll start there too, thanks for the tips!

ChpBstrd

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I'm tempted to engage in a bit of market timing, considering that bond spreads have priced in a 90% chance for a rate cut in July, and a probability for a second cut later this year.

We're at about 4.00% for 30Y mortgage rates today, but I suspect we could see 3.5% by end-of-year. My current, 6 month old mortage is at 4.875%.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

Right now, with $2800 in closing costs, my breakeven would occur in year 3 and by payoff time in year 5 my net savings would be $2418 (a ROI of 86% over 5 years, or about 17% ROI per year). If I could get 3.75%, for example, breakeven would occur in 3 years and by payoff in year 5 my net savings would be $3920 (a ROI of 136% over 5 years, close to 25% ROI per year!).

Here's a badass calculator. I just wish it would also output IRR and NPV within a given timeframe.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/refinance-calculator/calculate-refinance-savings

However, my market timing idea feels a bit like looking a gift horse in the mouth. Is a 17% guaranteed return so high that I can afford to risk losing it?

Chiron

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I've reached out to the loan officer at the nearby BBVA, told him what a "friend" recently got, we'll see how far that gets me. And my wife would be eligible for NFCU, and there's a branch near my house, so I'll start there too, thanks for the tips!

I started with this published rate: https://www.raymondjames.com/mortgagerates - this is before the auto-debit discount.

It took a special request by the LO at BBVA to match it.  So they may want you to get a loan estimate first.

Chiron

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I'm tempted to engage in a bit of market timing, considering that bond spreads have priced in a 90% chance for a rate cut in July, and a probability for a second cut later this year.

We're at about 4.00% for 30Y mortgage rates today, but I suspect we could see 3.5% by end-of-year. My current, 6 month old mortage is at 4.875%.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

Right now, with $2800 in closing costs, my breakeven would occur in year 3 and by payoff time in year 5 my net savings would be $2418 (a ROI of 86% over 5 years, or about 17% ROI per year). If I could get 3.75%, for example, breakeven would occur in 3 years and by payoff in year 5 my net savings would be $3920 (a ROI of 136% over 5 years, close to 25% ROI per year!).

Here's a badass calculator. I just wish it would also output IRR and NPV within a given timeframe.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/refinance-calculator/calculate-refinance-savings

However, my market timing idea feels a bit like looking a gift horse in the mouth. Is a 17% guaranteed return so high that I can afford to risk losing it?

Do a no-cost refi now and lock in some savings at 4-4.25.  Then you keep your upside if rates go down.  Or go ARM if you believe rates will not be going up long term (I don't - our economy is addicted to cheap money) and save way more.  Don't forget many title companies give a discount for refinances within 2 years of previous policy issuance.  In TX it's 40%.

Kem

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Current loan:  fha 3.875% fixed 30 Yr refi from 2012, 195K balance.

Today began refi :  conventional 3.875% fixed 30 Yr, $600 in closing costs (talked down from $1600), $2400 back (for $1800 net), $200/m (or 13%) reduction.   

New American Funding
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 09:50:18 PM by Kem »

ChpBstrd

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I'm tempted to engage in a bit of market timing, considering that bond spreads have priced in a 90% chance for a rate cut in July, and a probability for a second cut later this year.

We're at about 4.00% for 30Y mortgage rates today, but I suspect we could see 3.5% by end-of-year. My current, 6 month old mortage is at 4.875%.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

Right now, with $2800 in closing costs, my breakeven would occur in year 3 and by payoff time in year 5 my net savings would be $2418 (a ROI of 86% over 5 years, or about 17% ROI per year). If I could get 3.75%, for example, breakeven would occur in 3 years and by payoff in year 5 my net savings would be $3920 (a ROI of 136% over 5 years, close to 25% ROI per year!).

Here's a badass calculator. I just wish it would also output IRR and NPV within a given timeframe.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/refinance-calculator/calculate-refinance-savings

However, my market timing idea feels a bit like looking a gift horse in the mouth. Is a 17% guaranteed return so high that I can afford to risk losing it?

Do a no-cost refi now and lock in some savings at 4-4.25.  Then you keep your upside if rates go down.  Or go ARM if you believe rates will not be going up long term (I don't - our economy is addicted to cheap money) and save way more.  Don't forget many title companies give a discount for refinances within 2 years of previous policy issuance.  In TX it's 40%.

You池e right @Chiron, that痴 a no-lose proposition and if rates went lower I could just do it again.

Thanks for the tip on title policies. Will look into that.