Author Topic: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment  (Read 20171 times)

jnw

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My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.  (Zillow says my home is worth $123k now but I don't believe it.. tax assesor put a value of $97k recently, so I am goign with 100k.)

Think about all that rent money I'll be saving for the remainder of my life after the home is paid off in 2.5 years.. if I am lucky will be about another 25 years or so based on the life spans of my relatives.

Then my heir(s) can live in the home mortage free, or sell the home for whatever for a good amount of money. I figure the home will appreciate at least around the average inflation.

In the past 8.5 years the biggest repair was the evaporator core of the a/c unit went out and that cost $1200 to repair.   The next most expensive repair was $120 for a replacement computer for the furnace.  I'm going to be replaicng the a/c condenser next which will probably be $2500 or so.  The gas furnace I think will last forever.. my guy always seems to fix it pretty easily.. the $120 computer.. I think $100 to replace the valve on the furnace.  He fixed the slipping furnace fan himself for free by bending things here and there.

We have a nice large yard with privacy fence for our dog. We have few different bbq grills/pits.  Also have a large garden along with a compost pile.  A spacious two car garage with individual garage doors which we keep our cars in ...  all things I missed while renting.  Oh no more neighbors banging walls or cockroach infestions from neighbors.  We also have a custom made 200 square foot shed which came with the house.. very well made almost looks like a little house but has shed doors and has no insulation or electricity.  Also, no more hunting for parking spaces, like we had to do at the apartment complex when it got crowded.. literally our cars were sometimes parked 100 yards away.

Seems like it was well worth it.  And I didnt pay much more eaqch month than I did paying rent.   Minimum mortgage paytment along with property tax and homeowner's insurance is now $541 .. about how much I paid to rent a 1 bedroom apartment.  So think about all the money I would have thrown away in rent over the past 8.5 years, with nothing to show for it.

I did get a brand spanking new $8000 roof on the house about 1 month before I moved in, which the seller paid for.  Timberline HD architectural shingles. (He was gonan install three tab shingles but I paid $2k or so more for the architectural shingles.)  Also a brand new $1200 gas water heater.   All part of the mortage deal for $78k.

I guess apartments make sense if the people live in them wanted to move into a home that cost $250-350k.  I live in Oklahoma and homes can be quite cheap here in areas.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 01:19:40 AM by JenniferW »

Paper Chaser

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2022, 06:04:16 AM »
I am a homeowner. I enjoy owning my home. To play Devil's advocate here:

https://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/05/29/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/

A lot of the advantages that you listed have little to do with financials and investment, and more to do with lifestyle, convenience and features you might not have otherwise.

Mr. Green

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2022, 06:44:06 AM »
I have owned a townhouse in Maryland since 2005. For whatever reason, that area has not seen the huge appreciation gains other metros had seen prior to last spring. We bought near the pre-"Great Recession" peak and it took until 2015-2016 for our home to recover to the value we paid for it, and that was after we spent $15,000 finishing the basement and adding a bathroom down there. The home has appreciated 20% in the last 18 months like every other place (or more in plenty of areas) in the US. Depreciation is real though. Homes get dated and it reduces their value, compared to newer homes, regardless of whether all homes in the area are appreciating.

It's certainly hard to argue for renting in many areas right now as rental rates have risen even more than home prices, but perhaps not that terribly much more. Rents around here are up 25% in the last year.

If I consider all the money we've outlayed on that townhouse of ours over the years, compared to what we would have earned from the market had we invested excess funds beyond renting, I'm almost certain we have lost money. Call that the opportunity cost of having fewer neighbors, more flexibility in what we did to the space, and more headaches with maintenance and improvements.

If one owned a house in one of the cities that has seen insane appreciation over that same time then that's great, but I'm just tossing this out there as an example that it isn't all roses in all locations.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 06:45:58 AM by Mr. Green »

BeanCounter

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2022, 07:13:33 AM »
The answer is like many things in life....it depends.
It's dependent on what part of the country your in and the current economy.

JL Collins wrote that blog post after the housing market crashed and then, in a lot of areas, it did make more sense to rent. But now that we're seeing a big increase on rent it may not.

Here in the midwest it has always made more sense to own than to rent. We own a 3,000 square foot home that has appreciated $100k (conservatively) since we bought it. We have a mortgage on it at 2.75% for 15 years that we pay $1,800 per month on (includes taxes and insurance plus slight extra on premium). Rent for a place half the size would be at least $1,800. There is currently a house for rent in my neighborhood for $2,875.
We budget $3,000 a year for maintenance. Some years we spend nothing. Some years we've spend $10k + on upgrading or replacing something.
Even with maintenance costs I'm quite sure we'll come out ahead in the long run owning vs renting.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2022, 07:30:19 AM »
Experience wildly varies based on location. We're in the bay area, and have owned homes in several HCOL areas, and they've always done well & we've profited from them. They have been better financial decisions than renting, but that's not always the case, as others have pointed out. Property taxes in our area are also crazy high.

FINate

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2022, 08:43:34 AM »
Most of your reasons for owning have nothing to do with investing. Nothing wrong with that, but important to separate out the issues if we're going to have a discussion about investments. The relevant details are as follows:

My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.  (Zillow says my home is worth $123k now but I don't believe it.. tax assesor put a value of $97k recently, so I am goign with 100k.)

You bought for $78k and 11.5 years later it's worth $100k. That's an annualized return rate of 2.18%, or maybe just barely keeping up with inflation. Granted, you didn't put down $78k and instead got a mortgage and benefited from the leverage, but then you also will have paid $25k in interest.

If instead of buying, you put the $15,600 down payment (assuming %20 of purchase value) in the total stock market, after 15 years it would be worth $65000. Add the $25,000 in interest you would have saved and you'd have around $100k again (more if you invested the savings along the way). No HVAC repairs, no insurance, no property taxes... just liquid equities in your brokerage account.

This is why a home is generally not a very good investment.

Now you have to live somewhere, and the lifestyle considerations do matter, so in many cases it makes sense to own instead of rent. But this decision is highly contextual and YMMV, which is why the things like the NYT Rent vs. Own Calculator exist.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 08:45:29 AM by FINate »

thesis

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2022, 09:14:23 AM »
A mortgage and maintenance tend to stifle cash flow, and as such, it's sometimes referred to as a bad investment compared to, say, an investment property, which is technically (ideally) earning money. Whether you see it this way depends on how you treat the difference between cash flow and appreciation. In general, houses cost money to own, but whether appreciation recoups and surpasses the cost depends on many external factors. Houses go up...in general.

I'm also learning that income plays a huge role in this. If one has a low income and a very large portion of it is spent maintaining a house, this makes the person "house-poor" and unable to diversify or acquire any other investments, which can be really dangerous if they experience a layoff. At higher income levels, people often don't have to care, and can very easily diversify.

In my experience, many people have so much faith in the high returns of a house that they often pump tens of thousands of dollars into making their house a "home," oblivious to how this affects their overall return.

As a rule of thumb, I don't go around saying it's a bad investment, as I don't think this is necessarily true, but I am something of an evangelist for people understanding that there are many factors that go into how much a house costs and whether it's truly beneficial from a financial perspective.

Fishindude

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2022, 09:34:10 AM »
We've been in the same old farm house for 30+ years.   In that time frame we have pretty much replaced everything and probably spent more than what it would have cost to have built a new home from scratch.
The saving grace was that it was quite cheap when first purchased, and everything has been done pay as you go, so the mortgage never got any bigger.   All of the money thrown into this place would have fared far better in mutual funds.

Having said the above, I wouldn't change anything because it is where we want to live.

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2022, 11:40:29 AM »
When I get this home finally paid off within the next 3 years, it's going to give me a huge sense of accomplishment.  Even though it's a cheap home.  I just enjoy the thought of only having to pay $90 per month property tax for the rest of my life to keep this place.  It's comforts me.  (I also will pay $967 per year for homeowner's insurance to protect against fire/tornado/etc..)   I don't think I'll ever move, really happy here.

I also like that my heir will get the home without the bank forcing a sell to pay off mortgage.  The bank told me in the past that they won't let my heir take over the loan payments.   So that's why I am paying it off so fast.  So my heir has a home to live in the rest of his life without worry of shelter.

nereo

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2022, 04:52:54 PM »


I also like that my heir will get the home without the bank forcing a sell to pay off mortgage.  The bank told me in the past that they won't let my heir take over the loan payments.   So that's why I am paying it off so fast.  So my heir has a home to live in the rest of his life without worry of shelter.

Your debts, including your mortgage, are paid by your estate upon your death. This is done by your executor.  So long as your assets exceed your debts, you need not worry about about your home passing to your heir(s), regardless of whether the is a lien on the property or owned outright. 

While it only impacts a very few, inherited real estate is counted in estate taxes.

iris lily

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2022, 05:49:56 PM »
Because I am old, I am finally figuring out some  stuff about  my fellow humans.

I know at least two people who look at their abode as a serious “investment.” And here is why:

1) it gives them a tax write off
2) it is a source of $ when they pull out some* equity to buy dumb shit
3) 35 years residing in flyover country has not shown them that they are not in their native HCOL East Coast city where real estate over 30 years DOES escalate in price rapidly and dramatically

Yes, they cannot math. But that’s not the main issue. The very biggest issue is that these persons are unable to see wads of liquid Benjamins without spending it on dumb shit.

So even when they take out second and third mortgages (which these two people pay judiciously because they consider themselves responsible with money) they are not liquidating their entire equity in their house. Because the bank won’t let them! Hahah.

So for them, The house acts as a container for some of their assets and are locked away from them spending that asset.

This is sad but true.

Kind of reminds me of why I now see how term life insurance is good, or at least understandable, for some people. It is because they are unable to simply save. They do not have that discipline or value.They need a bill to pay each month. And then, term life insurance has the added advantage of the policyholder being able to leave money to their children and it’s not clawed back by Medicare for the nursing home cost. Because people like this always have nursing home costs funded by the taxpayers if they spend their final days in a nursing home.

iris lily

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2022, 05:54:00 PM »
But that said, we have never had a mortgage and I like life that way.

SeattleCPA

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2022, 07:13:55 PM »
The blogger I mention in this post is not Jim. But the post does explain why his way of thinking really is not financial. I know. It purports to be. But you need to do the math. And sometimes the math shows home ownership makes a ton of sense.

https://evergreensmallbusiness.com/are-houses-investments/


Morning Glory

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 07:27:54 PM »
Most of your reasons for owning have nothing to do with investing. Nothing wrong with that, but important to separate out the issues if we're going to have a discussion about investments. The relevant details are as follows:

My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.  (Zillow says my home is worth $123k now but I don't believe it.. tax assesor put a value of $97k recently, so I am goign with 100k.)

You bought for $78k and 11.5 years later it's worth $100k. That's an annualized return rate of 2.18%, or maybe just barely keeping up with inflation. Granted, you didn't put down $78k and instead got a mortgage and benefited from the leverage, but then you also will have paid $25k in interest.

If instead of buying, you put the $15,600 down payment (assuming %20 of purchase value) in the total stock market, after 15 years it would be worth $65000. Add the $25,000 in interest you would have saved and you'd have around $100k again (more if you invested the savings along the way). No HVAC repairs, no insurance, no property taxes... just liquid equities in your brokerage account.

This is why a home is generally not a very good investment.

Now you have to live somewhere, and the lifestyle considerations do matter, so in many cases it makes sense to own instead of rent. But this decision is highly contextual and YMMV, which is why the things like the NYT Rent vs. Own Calculator exist.

You are forgetting the tax free "dividend" the house pays in the form of imputed rent value. Say it would cost 10k.per year to rent a similar house, then you are getting a more than 10% return on your 78k because you can live in the house instead of paying rent. Even if you discount this by 50% to cover your interest, taxes, and maintenance  you are beating most safe investments.  This is in addition to any appreciation that may or may not occur. 


Morning Glory

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2022, 07:40:24 PM »
A mortgage and maintenance tend to stifle cash flow, and as such, it's sometimes referred to as a bad investment compared to, say, an investment property, which is technically (ideally) earning money. Whether you see it this way depends on how you treat the difference between cash flow and appreciation. In general, houses cost money to own, but whether appreciation recoups and surpasses the cost depends on many external factors. Houses go up...in general.

I'm also learning that income plays a huge role in this. If one has a low income and a very large portion of it is spent maintaining a house, this makes the person "house-poor" and unable to diversify or acquire any other investments, which can be really dangerous if they experience a layoff. At higher income levels, people often don't have to care, and can very easily diversify.

In my experience, many people have so much faith in the high returns of a house that they often pump tens of thousands of dollars into making their house a "home," oblivious to how this affects their overall return.

As a rule of thumb, I don't go around saying it's a bad investment, as I don't think this is necessarily true, but I am something of an evangelist for people understanding that there are many factors that go into how much a house costs and whether it's truly beneficial from a financial perspective.

Ok.but if you don't own a home you have to pay rent, which is often higher than the mortgage and maintenance.  Even if the house doesn't appreciate at all, it is cheaper to buy than rent in many areas, otherwise 1% rule rentals wouldn't exist.

I agree that it is dumb to pour a bunch of money into "updates" and expect to get it all back when you sell the house. That's just consumer spending. 

FINate

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2022, 08:14:39 PM »
Most of your reasons for owning have nothing to do with investing. Nothing wrong with that, but important to separate out the issues if we're going to have a discussion about investments. The relevant details are as follows:

My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.  (Zillow says my home is worth $123k now but I don't believe it.. tax assesor put a value of $97k recently, so I am goign with 100k.)

You bought for $78k and 11.5 years later it's worth $100k. That's an annualized return rate of 2.18%, or maybe just barely keeping up with inflation. Granted, you didn't put down $78k and instead got a mortgage and benefited from the leverage, but then you also will have paid $25k in interest.

If instead of buying, you put the $15,600 down payment (assuming %20 of purchase value) in the total stock market, after 15 years it would be worth $65000. Add the $25,000 in interest you would have saved and you'd have around $100k again (more if you invested the savings along the way). No HVAC repairs, no insurance, no property taxes... just liquid equities in your brokerage account.

This is why a home is generally not a very good investment.

Now you have to live somewhere, and the lifestyle considerations do matter, so in many cases it makes sense to own instead of rent. But this decision is highly contextual and YMMV, which is why the things like the NYT Rent vs. Own Calculator exist.

You are forgetting the tax free "dividend" the house pays in the form of imputed rent value. Say it would cost 10k.per year to rent a similar house, then you are getting a more than 10% return on your 78k because you can live in the house instead of paying rent. Even if you discount this by 50% to cover your interest, taxes, and maintenance  you are beating most safe investments.  This is in addition to any appreciation that may or may not occur.

No, I'm not forgetting it. That's why I wrote "you have to live somewhere" and pointed to the NYT Rent vs. Own Calculator. Sometimes it makes sense to own, sometimes it doesn't. Even when it makes sense financially it's not really an investment. And even if it doesn't make sense financially, it may still make sense from a lifestyle POV. A primary residence is a form of consumption, whereas the tendency to fetishize it as an investment leads to all kinds of wonky financial decisions. You really have to run the numbers in every situation.   

SeattleCPA

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 08:56:07 PM »
Even when it makes sense financially it's not really an investment. And even if it doesn't make sense financially, it may still make sense from a lifestyle POV. A primary residence is a form of consumption, whereas the tendency to fetishize it as an investment leads to all kinds of wonky financial decisions. You really have to run the numbers in every situation.

One can and really should calculate the IRR on a house if you want to talk about whether a house is an investment, a good investment or a bad investment. And when you do, even before the leverage effect, you regularly get a great return.

Always? No, of course not. But on average the data says you do.

The other thing, housing as an investment, per some pretty good research, does great things to your portfolio.

So if that isn't an investment? I don't know what to say.

I didn't want to beat on Jim Collins but frankly part of the problem of his anecdotal pseudo-analysis is he is not doing the math.

Finally, I don't expect people to necessarily read or digest some blog post I wrote and then link to... but if someone wants to understand the math of why a house is obviously an investment? See the earlier link.

And if someone doubts housing is a good building block  for a portfolio, they ought to consider reading this research paper: https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf

« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 09:08:46 PM by SeattleCPA »

PDXTabs

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 10:25:05 PM »
My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.

So by your own math you paid $103k over 11.5 years for something that is worth ~$100k. If that was cheaper than rent it was a good deal.

What was 11.5 years ago, August 2010? $78k into the SP-500 in August 2010 with dividends reinvested is now $405k.

PDXTabs

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 10:31:53 PM »
Ok.but if you don't own a home you have to pay rent, which is often higher than the mortgage and maintenance.  Even if the house doesn't appreciate at all, it is cheaper to buy than rent in many areas, otherwise 1% rule rentals wouldn't exist.

Yup, but it's just a math problem. In any given area it is either cheaper to rent or buy, or it is a wash. If you live in an area where it is cheaper to rent (or it is a wash) I, personally, would rent.

PDXTabs

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2022, 10:34:32 PM »
And if someone doubts housing is a good building block  for a portfolio, they ought to consider reading this research paper: https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf

But do I want to live in my portfolio? I'm not at all opposed to real estate in my portfolio, but I'd rather have it managed by someone that isn't me, without my dumb ass living in it. Or, as your link so kindly pointed out:

But the thought experiment suggests that the ideal investor would like to hold an internationally diversified portfolio of real estate holdings, even more so than equities.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 10:36:37 PM by PDXTabs »

Dicey

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2022, 01:30:48 AM »
Y'all know that JL Collins ended up buying another house a few years ago, right?

The other anti-homeowner was Jeremy at Go Curry Cracker. Guess what? He just bought a house, too. In California, no less.

Jennifer W, you do you. I live in a much higher COLA and am richer than I ever imagined because I bought real estate and kept a big, fat mortgage while I invested every spare non-mortgage penny I had into other investments.

Fun fact: I have paid more in property taxes on my house in the last ten years than you paid for a whole house, including your mortgage interest to date. My house has gone up in value $800k in that time.

There is no one size fits all "best" answer. What works for you doesn't work for everyone. Good thing there are so many options and a million ways to get to FIRE.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 07:32:24 PM by Dicey »

techwiz

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2022, 09:20:00 AM »
I believe it depends, but can understand the logic behind those who say owning a home is a bad investment.

An investment should be making you money. If your home is making money in the form of rent, or you are flipping the home making money by the increasing value I can see it as a good investment.

However, my own house which I own without a mortgage is not making me any money. The opposite in fact as I have to pay to insure, maintain, heat, taxes, etc..   so one could argue it is not good investment.  If I had that value invested in the market it would be a much better investment. 

Do not take this the wrong way owning a home is great, not having a mortgage helps me sleep better at night. Is it a bad investment? Depends what I am comparing it to and my goals.

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2022, 09:29:04 AM »
I believe it depends, but can understand the logic behind those who say owning a home is a bad investment.

An investment should be making you money. If your home is making money in the form of rent, or you are flipping the home making money by the increasing value I can see it as a good investment.

However, my own house which I own without a mortgage is not making me any money. The opposite in fact as I have to pay to insure, maintain, heat, taxes, etc..   so one could argue it is not good investment.  If I had that value invested in the market it would be a much better investment. 

Do not take this the wrong way owning a home is great, not having a mortgage helps me sleep better at night. Is it a bad investment? Depends what I am comparing it to and my goals.

I just dont' udnerstand the logic. If you invested the money isntead into the stock market, this means you'd have to rent and you'd have that monthly amount to pay.. and none of it goes to principle.  Money just thrown away. Doesn't make sense to me.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 09:31:23 AM by JenniferW »

clarkfan1979

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 09:33:22 AM »
My home is almost paid off. It's worth about $100k.  I bought it for $78,000 and by the time I pay it off I will have paid about $25k in interest.   So the appreciation of the home alone almost covers the interest I paid.   All in about 11.5 years of payments of various amounts.  (Zillow says my home is worth $123k now but I don't believe it.. tax assesor put a value of $97k recently, so I am goign with 100k.)

Think about all that rent money I'll be saving for the remainder of my life after the home is paid off in 2.5 years.. if I am lucky will be about another 25 years or so based on the life spans of my relatives.

Then my heir(s) can live in the home mortage free, or sell the home for whatever for a good amount of money. I figure the home will appreciate at least around the average inflation.

In the past 8.5 years the biggest repair was the evaporator core of the a/c unit went out and that cost $1200 to repair.   The next most expensive repair was $120 for a replacement computer for the furnace.  I'm going to be replaicng the a/c condenser next which will probably be $2500 or so.  The gas furnace I think will last forever.. my guy always seems to fix it pretty easily.. the $120 computer.. I think $100 to replace the valve on the furnace.  He fixed the slipping furnace fan himself for free by bending things here and there.

We have a nice large yard with privacy fence for our dog. We have few different bbq grills/pits.  Also have a large garden along with a compost pile.  A spacious two car garage with individual garage doors which we keep our cars in ...  all things I missed while renting.  Oh no more neighbors banging walls or cockroach infestions from neighbors.  We also have a custom made 200 square foot shed which came with the house.. very well made almost looks like a little house but has shed doors and has no insulation or electricity.  Also, no more hunting for parking spaces, like we had to do at the apartment complex when it got crowded.. literally our cars were sometimes parked 100 yards away.

Seems like it was well worth it.  And I didnt pay much more eaqch month than I did paying rent.   Minimum mortgage paytment along with property tax and homeowner's insurance is now $541 .. about how much I paid to rent a 1 bedroom apartment.  So think about all the money I would have thrown away in rent over the past 8.5 years, with nothing to show for it.

I did get a brand spanking new $8000 roof on the house about 1 month before I moved in, which the seller paid for.  Timberline HD architectural shingles. (He was gonan install three tab shingles but I paid $2k or so more for the architectural shingles.)  Also a brand new $1200 gas water heater.   All part of the mortage deal for $78k.

I guess apartments make sense if the people live in them wanted to move into a home that cost $250-350k.  I live in Oklahoma and homes can be quite cheap here in areas.

It seems like you did a pretty good job with your house. There are many people on this forum who love real estate, myself included. However, not everyone is real estate savvy. Many people choose to buy houses out of emotional and personal preference. When they go to sell, they can sometimes lose money.

My father bought a retirement house in Florida in 2007 for 565K. He didn't buy it as an investment. He bought it as a retirement house to enjoy his golden years. It turns out that he hated it. Because of the HOA, he wasn't allowed to do his own yard work. He didn't really get along with his neighbors. He was pretty much the only retired blue collar worker in the neighborhood. He sold it for 430K in 2016. It sold again for 435K in 2020. In June 2021, it was probably worth 565K and today it probably worth 600K.

It took 14 years for the value of the house to recover from what he paid (2007-2021).

I bought my first house around the same time in 2007 for 182K and it needed about 10K worth of repairs. When I purchased it, I considered it more of an investment. Today it's worth 460K.
 

Cassie

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2022, 09:42:21 AM »
The best thing I ever did was buy a condo when I moved to Nevada 25 years ago. It kept me in the market. During that time I married and owned a house. When I divorced a year ago I downsized to another condo. If I had to pay rent I would have to move to a lower cost of living. Plus my home environment is very important and I like things fixed the way I want them.

techwiz

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2022, 09:45:55 AM »
I believe it depends, but can understand the logic behind those who say owning a home is a bad investment.

An investment should be making you money. If your home is making money in the form of rent, or you are flipping the home making money by the increasing value I can see it as a good investment.

However, my own house which I own without a mortgage is not making me any money. The opposite in fact as I have to pay to insure, maintain, heat, taxes, etc..   so one could argue it is not good investment.  If I had that value invested in the market it would be a much better investment. 

Do not take this the wrong way owning a home is great, not having a mortgage helps me sleep better at night. Is it a bad investment? Depends what I am comparing it to and my goals.

I just dont' udnerstand the logic. If you invested the money isntead into the stock market, this means you'd have to rent and you'd have that monthly amount to pay.. and none of it goes to principle.  Money just thrown away. Doesn't make sense to me.

This site https://www.tictoclife.com/buy-vs-rent/ does a really good job of explaining the logic and math behind both sides of the renting + investing vs owning.   

nereo

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2022, 09:54:26 AM »

I just dont' udnerstand the logic. If you invested the money isntead into the stock market, this means you'd have to rent and you'd have that monthly amount to pay.. and none of it goes to principle.  Money just thrown away. Doesn't make sense to me.

The “money thrown away” is one of the most repeated phrases with realtors. Like most marketing phrases it has some kernels of truth but is a big exaggeration.

There are certainly times when owning is far better than renting (see NYT Rent vs. Buy calculator linked upthread).  The converse is also certainly true. While money spent on rent is gone n’er to return, money (and time) spent on interest, taxes, insurance and upkeep are also gone.

Then there’s the pervasive belief that houses will appreciate in value, which is very often not the case. Most often people merely look at the purchase price and the sale price and ignore inflation and depreciation. If you go several decades without a remodel your home’s resale value will reflect that. If you don’t stay on top of maintenance your ‘investment’ will literally rot. Which means if you decide to consider it an investment (fine by my FWIW) you can’t consider it a passive one. It’s also an asset which can be tremendously hard to liquidate in the wrong market, and expensive to liquidate in even a hot one.

While renting comes with its own risks (namely finding new ones in a tight rental market) it doesn’t carry the same large financial risks of a home. It also doesn’t carry the near-constant labor requirements that owning a home does, nor the immobility. A renter can adjust their housing needs and tastes each time they move. Much harder and expensive to do when you own a home.

I own a home and I’ve sold homes.  Overall I’ve done ok in terms of them increasing my NW. But it’s also the asset class which has done the least for me over the years relative to what I’ve put in.
YMMV

neo von retorch

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2022, 10:05:13 AM »
I've seen both sides. Before I speak on it, let's look at what the wise Google oracle of the internet has to say.

Quote
Investing is defined as the act of committing money or capital to an endeavor with the expectation of obtaining an additional income or profit.

OK see, I have never bought a house with the expectation of income or profit!.

I bought a house in 2007 ($156k), and I rented out additional bedrooms through 2014 (when I moved out). I kept track of all my expenses in a spreadsheet, and after about 8 years... I could've rented an apartment for $700/month. And also have had money invested in equities instead of real estate, and I'd have been better off. Not to mention the stress of roommates/tenants, the time and effort that went into maintaining it, etc.)

On the other hand, I kept the house until 2020, renting all 3 bedrooms, profited about $6k / year... and when I got lucky and sold in the summer of 2020, the value had bumped up to $216k. I hadn't kept the spreadsheet up to date, but I'm pretty sure the appreciation was enough to bump me into "profit" by then. Though if I had put all the initial and ongoing extra money into VTI/VTSAX from 2007 forward, while renting for $700/month (even if you account for rent increases) surely it would have been more profitable.

I think the main reason people jump into this thread to argue is the declaration "I don't understand those who say..." when... there are readily available examples of homes being bad investments. Maybe it did not appreciate. Maybe you had too many major repairs. Maybe your locale has a healthy, affordable rental market. Maybe alternative investments are far superior. Strong declarations deserve strong rebuttals.

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2022, 10:43:43 AM »
I agree I had a lot of luck. I bought it at the right time.

clarkfan1979

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2022, 01:32:50 PM »
I agree I had a lot of luck. I bought it at the right time.

Luck is a part of it. However, based on my personal experience those who lost money in real estate made multiple poor decisions that put themselves in a very bad spot financially. They were then forced to sell at the bottom or go into foreclosure.

I've seen smart people experience bad luck with real estate, but they seem to have the brains to overcome it.

I think the risk profile of real estate is lower for people who operate from a financial position of strength and are good problem solvers.

FINate

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2022, 07:29:24 PM »
@JenniferW I want to clarify that I don't think buying a house is necessarily unwise. It sounds very much like you, like many others on this forum, took a reasonable approach to home ownership and it paid off. This is to be applauded.

To me the question isn't really if home ownership is a "good" or "bad" investment. I just don't think it makes sense to view it as an investment in the first place.

Maybe an analogy is helpful. For many people cars are essentially (and unfortunately) a necessity. They get people to work, school, the store, etc. in areas where reliable alternatives don't exist. So they're very useful and are even used for getting to jobs. For these reasons sometimes people claim a personal vehicle purchase is an "investment" and use this to justify outlandish purchases like a $90k F350 that they'll drive 20k miles/year as a daily commuter to the office. On this forum we know this is nuts, because that truck depreciates and isn't actually earning income... it's not actually an investment, and it's a stupid way to spend money. Cars generally don't appreciate, perhaps with the exception of some rare and expensive collector cars. (But smart people don't drive these as daily commuters because it would be dumb!) Instead, the smart thing is to buy a new-used Honda Civic (or whatever economy car you can get) and take good care of it. It's not an investment, but it is the better financial decision.

The F350 is only an investment if used to generate income. Things such as hauling freight or equipment necessary for a trade or what have you. Depending on the specifics, it may or may not be a good investment.

Buying a modest house in an area where owning is less than or equal to renting is roughly equivalent to buying the economy car. It's the financially wise thing to do, even though it's not an investment. I suppose there are some rare cases where a primary residence is more like an investment, such as getting an incredibly good deal on an undervalued property with the intention of selling tax free in two years. But few people treat housing this way.

Buying a big fancy house to live in is roughly the equivalent of the F350 commuter or using the expensive collector car as a daily driver. People do it all the time because "it's an investment!" In the same way many also justify all sorts of super expensive remodels. But structures depreciate and degrade, and styles change and what's on trend today is old and dated in a few years.

A house is only an investment if you're making income on it. Like residential rental or a fancy property you're going to rent out for corporate retreats or whatever. These are investments, though whether good or bad is depends on the details.

All this to say, a good financial decision isn't necessarily an investment, and investments aren't necessarily good financial decisions. I just think it makes sense to avoid conflating these concepts.

PMJL34

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2022, 07:54:32 PM »
FInate, kudos to you for being so patient with OP. lol I would have given up.

OP, you will soon have paid off your house and you are comfortable. That's awesome and to be applauded. Yes, in your LCOL it makes/made more sense to buy than rent. However, it was a terrible "investment." Both statements are facts. Hope you can re-read what FInate has written.

Best of luck!

SeattleCPA

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2022, 09:29:25 PM »
FInate, kudos to you for being so patient with OP. lol I would have given up.

OP, you will soon have paid off your house and you are comfortable. That's awesome and to be applauded. Yes, in your LCOL it makes/made more sense to buy than rent. However, it was a terrible "investment." Both statements are facts. Hope you can re-read what FInate has written.

Best of luck!

What would be interesting would be for someone to do the math here. I mean, really do the math. Calculate the IRR. See how it compares to other real assets class returns.

Love to see the worksheet...

Also, feel pretty sure no one has done this.

clifp

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2022, 01:32:40 AM »
@JenniferW I want to clarify that I don't think buying a house is necessarily unwise. It sounds very much like you, like many others on this forum, took a reasonable approach to home ownership and it paid off. This is to be applauded.

To me the question isn't really if home ownership is a "good" or "bad" investment. I just don't think it makes sense to view it as an investment in the first place.


All this to say, a good financial decision isn't necessarily an investment, and investments aren't necessarily good financial decisions. I just think it makes sense to avoid conflating these concepts.

Maybe we are just arguing over semantics, but it is clear to me that in many cases buying a house is an investment and generally a good financial decision.

In many LCOL areas, it is possible to buy houses for less than the cost of renting. In those cases as long as you are in the house for more than a few years, it is a great investment.
Regardless of the appreciation, at the end of the 30 years you will own the house free and clear and will have paid less than rent.

The situation is more complex in HCOL place.  In those places, mortgage payments are higher than rents, and by the time you pay for taxes, insurance, maintenance extra, the cost of ownership can be $2,000+ per month more than renting.   There may be few people who are so fixated on owning a home, that'll pay thousands of dollars just to be able to pick the color of the carpet.

However, for the vast majority of people the reason they are willing to pay more to buy a home than rent it is because they expect that their equity will increase much faster than their excess mortgage payments.

We all agree couple that puts a $1,000/month into a Roth is making an investment.  The determination of is it a good or bad investment can only be known in retrospect.  $1,000/month for the last ten years in a money market has been a bad investment because inflation is much higher than money market yields, a $1,000/month in S&P has quite good, and $1,000/month in FAANG stocks has been phenomenal

A couple who 10 years ago agreed to pay $3,000/month in mortgage/taxes for a house in Silicon Valley when they could have rented the same house for $2,000 is also making an investment.
Ten years later, after refinancing they are paying less than $3,000/month, while rents are probably $4,500/month, and the house has probably nearly tripled in value. That's been a fine investment also.

Now what the next ten years look like is anyone's guess.


Paper Chaser

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2022, 05:05:10 AM »
In many LCOL areas, it is possible to buy houses for less than the cost of renting. In those cases as long as you are in the house for more than a few years, it is a great investment.
Regardless of the appreciation, at the end of the 30 years you will own the house free and clear and will have paid less than rent.

This may be true if we're only considering mortgage vs rents, but the renter doesn't have to pay to maintain the property (at least directly). Over 30 years, a homeowner would pay for at least 1 new roof, 2-3 water heaters, 2-4 sets of kitchen and laundry appliances, 1-2 HVAC systems, plus a bunch of smaller things through the years (plumbing fixes, light fixtures, flooring replacement/refinishing, paint, etc). Easily tens of thousands of dollars that a renter wouldn't have to pay. And that's just when stuff breaks. I'm not including things done to change cosmetics or improve functionality or efficiency of the property, etc. The homeowner likely also has to buy lawn care equipment, various tools, etc to care for the property for 30 years (or they pay other people to do those jobs which is even more expensive).

A proper rent payment should account for those other costs. So if a renter pays 1000/mo in rent, and then gets a mortgage where they pay 900/mo, they might feel like they're better off financially but their actual housing cost probably goes up because the maintenance and capex costs of owning a property aren't included in a mortgage payment like they would be in a rent payment. It would be interesting to try and find the average break even point, where one could determine "Over 30 years, a $1000 rent payment is equal to a $600 mortgage + maintenance/capex costs" or whatever.

I like owning my own home in a LCOL. To me, there are non-financial factors that make it worth the extra costs. But I'm not going to consider it any kind of investment, or act like it's a clear-cut, better financial decision than renting might be.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 05:07:32 AM by Paper Chaser »

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2022, 06:20:10 AM »
We bought a very nice used mower in like new condition for $100 in 2013 right after getting buying the house.   We got an electric weed trimmer for free as a gift for our new house :)  Both are still running strong.  Had to replace the battery once on the trimmer, but fortunate to find a used one as backup at flea market for $5. Been living here 102 months.. So about $1 per month for lawn care on 0.18 acres.  I figure the mower should last another 10 years.. so perhaps less than 50 cents per month after a while.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 06:21:58 AM by JenniferW »

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2022, 06:24:26 AM »
Replacement dishwashers, stove/ovens, refrigerators, washing machine, dryer are all about $50 to $200 to replace.  If patient enough shouldn't have to spend more than $100 for any of them.  We had to replace our washer and cost us $175 delivered. The first washing machine cost us $125 delivered.   The old stove and dish washer that came with the house are still running strong.

Oh by the way, having your own house most often saves you a lot of money and time at the laundromat.  Another hugely annoying thing about renting.  Can't express how much joy I had to move into a house and be able to wash the clothes here! LOL.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 06:27:42 AM by JenniferW »

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2022, 06:31:42 AM »
We do all our own electrical here and haven't spent a dime for an electrician.   This includes my guy troubleshooting furnace problem with computer, sourcing a replacement computer and installing it himself all for like $125.  It would of cost us $650 or so for an HVAC company to do the same.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 06:33:16 AM by JenniferW »

SeattleCPA

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2022, 06:32:15 AM »
@JenniferW , for what it's worth, I think houses are an investment. And should be viewed that way (if you're trying to build wealth and smartly construct your investment portfolio) because you'll make better decisions when you think that way.

After I got my MBA in finance, yikes, four decades ago, I started my career as a CPA with what was then the world's largest CPA firm. But after a couple of years, I went out on my own and basically did one thing: investment analysis of real estate. Almost entirely commercial real estate. Two or three buildings you can still spot in the Seattle skyline.

The work pretty much goes like this. You calculate the cash flows a property generates. For example, with $6 million a year of rent and $2 million a year of expenses, you get $4 million a year of cash flow.

Then, you divide the rent by the price. If the building costs $100 million and the owner gets $4 million a year of cash flow, that means you're getting 4% cash-on-cash return on your investment. Real estate folks call this the income capitalization rate. But it is basically equivalent to the dividend rate a stock or stock fund pays.

BTW if you get appreciation the property--for example, if that $100 million office tower appreciates  (inflates in value) by 2% a year, that means your overall return equals the 4% plus the 2% or 6%. That 6% is equivalent to the annual return a stock or index fund generates.

Small scale real estate investors often don't, in my experience, show this same level of financial sophistication. Most probably don't know how to do the analysis. (You'd use something like a spreadsheet.) But they should.

E.g., a small scale investor could have done with the property you live it. Rounding the numbers and guessing at the rents and expenses, someone could have bought the property for about $75K. Maybe they could have rented it to you for $6K a year, paid $3K a year in expenses, and then received a  $3K cash-on-cash return. That equates to a 4% income capitalization rate. If the property appreciated by another 4% a year, the small scale investor earned a project annual return of 8%.

The basic math of the above analysis overwhelms most people. But it's the way that sophisticated investors and big companies make capital investment decisions. Active investors (as opposed to passive investors just throwing their money into an index fund) probably look at a bunch of different investments and then try to pick the best options. And much of that decision making revolves around picking the investments that deliver the highest return.

A couple of final comments...

First, borrowing money to make an investment amplifies your returns. Basically, you want to borrow money at, say, 4% and invest in something that generates 6% or 8%. But it also complicates your investment analysis. And it massively jacks your risks. You may borrow at 4% and invest in something that earns 3%. And then you get killed financially.

Second, my hunch is you earned a very good annual return. One would need to do the math everyone keeps talking about.


FINate

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2022, 08:34:56 AM »
A couple who 10 years ago agreed to pay $3,000/month in mortgage/taxes for a house in Silicon Valley when they could have rented the same house for $2,000 is also making an investment.
Ten years later, after refinancing they are paying less than $3,000/month, while rents are probably $4,500/month, and the house has probably nearly tripled in value. That's been a fine investment also.

My point exactly. What you're describing isn't investing, but rather speculation. Go back 15 years to 2007 and people were also saying we could rent for less, but housing is going to keep going up up up, so paying more for a house is an investment! Many of those people lost everything, and the crash in speculative housing prices is what made 10 years ago such a good time to buy, either as a homeowner or as an investor (which is what I did).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 08:59:04 AM by FINate »

FINate

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2022, 08:58:41 AM »
@JenniferW , for what it's worth, I think houses are an investment. And should be viewed that way (if you're trying to build wealth and smartly construct your investment portfolio) because you'll make better decisions when you think that way.

We don't agree on treating a primary residence as an investment, but I completely agree that if one is going think of it this way they should really treat it as an investor would. Always be accounting for all costs compared to imputed rents, and make property management decisions through the same lens: Landscaping? Keep it basic and low maintenance, just enough to keep the curb appeal, nothing fancy or expensive. Same with remodels and paint and flooring. Neutral colors, low maintenance, high durability. None of the "we're going to spend $100k remodeling the kitchen because it's an investment!" nonsense. (Just to be clear, not accusing OP of this, I just see it All. The. Time.)

But the problem with all this accounting is that it's mostly not actionable. Let's say you live in an area that's cheaper to rent than own. In this situation your house really sucks as an investment property. Generally speaking, it is under-performing and you should sell and put the capital to better use elsewhere. On the other hand, let's say you live in an area that's cheaper to own than rent. In this situation you are the "renter" (e.g. the imputed rents) which means you're eating your own profits. However, you have to live somewhere so it's not like you can simply vacate the house to cash in on the rent potential, unless you're doing the geoarbitrage thing but that's an entirely different discussion. So wile you can account for a primary residence as an investment, you can't really act on it as such, because no matter how you look at it you really shouldn't live in it. Again, a home is really a type of consumption.

nereo

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2022, 09:30:34 AM »
We bought a very nice used mower in like new condition for $100 in 2013 right after getting buying the house.   We got an electric weed trimmer for free as a gift for our new house :)  Both are still running strong.  Had to replace the battery once on the trimmer, but fortunate to find a used one as backup at flea market for $5. Been living here 102 months.. So about $1 per month for lawn care on 0.18 acres.  I figure the mower should last another 10 years.. so perhaps less than 50 cents per month after a while.

Would you come over and mow and trim my similarly-sized lawn for $1 each month?  No?  Why not?

These are the sorts of rationalizations that frustrate me every time this topic comes up (and it pops up every few months without fail). Personally I believe that owning your home can be a much better financial decision than renting. I wouldn’t call my home a [good] investment for all the reasons listed about and then some, but as clifp suggested much of this might just come down to semantics.

But what I do see is lots of hand-waving and rose-glasses numbers used to tilt the discussion towards one conclusion or another. There’s lots of difficult-to-quantify benefits of owning a home, such as never having to ask the landlord for permission and the knowledge that it’s much harder for anyone to force you to move (though see non-payment of taxes, mortgage or eminent domain). But there is also undoubtedly more labor and more responsibility with owning your own home. And as the owner you carry all the financial risk. I’d argue that there are very few assets that most people own which carry as much financial risk and active management for the level of returns most people experience.

It’s clear that owning your home is the best solution for you. Great!  Literally everything you’ve said makes me think it was the better decision in your circumstance, though sometimes not for the reasons you’ve listed (or at least not in that particular order).  But to me, just because it was the smarter financial decision doesn’t mean it qualifies as a financial investment.  If that’s just semantics to you, so be it - but the terms and definitions matter to me.  Otherwise we just keep going around in circles when we are really just saying slightly different things.




PMJL34

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2022, 10:00:52 AM »
Well said nereo.

OP, have your roof is now 10 years old and will need replacement in 5-10 years. Even at 8k that's a lot of cash that you will soon need. How about HVAC? How about siding, plumbing, sewer drains, driveway, I could go on and on. You may have not had to do them yet, but they will be required at one point. Those are big ticket items that will for sure require more cash and skew the numbers greatly. 

On the positive side, that's awesome OP that you aren't spending 3k or whatever for a fridge or washre/dryer. Kudos!

BUT... I just don't understand SeattleCPA or Jennifer's argument at all for this particular case study of purchase price of 78k to 100k 10 years later. 2.18%/y return over the hottest market ever lol (13+%/y). It was about as bad as an investment as one could do.

For the last time these two statements can both be true:
1. It was a good decision for OP to buy the home compared to renting and for personal reasons.
2. It was a terrible "investment" because your home is still worth what you paid for.

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2022, 10:56:48 AM »
Would you come over and mow and trim my similarly-sized lawn for $1 each month?  No?  Why not?

My guy loves mowing the yard and edging it.  It's great exercise and it helps him stay fit :)  He doesn't charge me for it either :)  This is his home as well.  I'd mow the lawn myself before paying someone.   I could use more exercise :)

(I don't understand why people pay for the gym and also for someone to do the yard.  Could get free exercise mowing the yard.  I suppose there might be some good reasons.)

The time it takes to mow is probably a lot less than the time goign to the laundromat each week.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 11:21:51 AM by JenniferW »

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2022, 11:02:46 AM »
Well said nereo.

OP, have your roof is now 10 years old and will need replacement in 5-10 years. Even at 8k that's a lot of cash that you will soon need. How about HVAC? How about siding, plumbing, sewer drains, driveway, I could go on and on. You may have not had to do them yet, but they will be required at one point. Those are big ticket items that will for sure require more cash and skew the numbers greatly. 

On the positive side, that's awesome OP that you aren't spending 3k or whatever for a fridge or washre/dryer. Kudos!

BUT... I just don't understand SeattleCPA or Jennifer's argument at all for this particular case study of purchase price of 78k to 100k 10 years later. 2.18%/y return over the hottest market ever lol (13+%/y). It was about as bad as an investment as one could do.

For the last time these two statements can both be true:
1. It was a good decision for OP to buy the home compared to renting and for personal reasons.
2. It was a terrible "investment" because your home is still worth what you paid for.

My roof is 8.5 years old.  It's Timberline HD Architectural.  It looks brand new stiill. It's gonna last much longer than 20 years total.    Sewage lines were inspected , they are fine.   We drain our water heater every year, it was brand new when we moved it.  Our only big expense was replacing the evaporator coil on the furnace.. that cost $1300.    We'll have to to replace the condensor in a year or two.. it's $2500.  Should last us like 20 years.   We've done all the furnace  repairs ourself because it's relatively easy.. saved a lot.. $125 for computer.. $120 for valve.. he bent the fan back into shape himself by hand to get rid of the rattling.  I guess I've been lucky so far.   We replaced the ceramic tile in kitchen ourselves.   Our drivewya is the original concrete.. it's got a few cracks for being 50 years old (came that way) but we don't care.. it's held up well the past 50 year. It'll last us the rest of our life.  Regarding siding, it hasn't been touched in 50 years since it was built.  It's brick veneer.  No worry about painting either except for some trim which one bucket of paint can handle.

The guy who previously owned it, he's a contractor.. does home repairs and builds homes. He built the gorgeous shed out back.  The home was in excellent condition when we bought it.  Everything well painted.  I hired several inspectors to come out (very good ones) to make sure everythign was sound before I bought it.

I really can't think of anything else we had to repair, so far.  The kitchen cabinets need a paint job and we'll do that ourselves at some point.  We like the existing paint job to fully depreciate lol.   Same with the cheap carpet in the house.  In a few years after this place is paid off we'll have lots of extra money and get a proper carpet installed.  My brother hired an awesome company and his carpet it still holding up very well for 15 years.

We have excellent sewer line coverage for the house, with our homeowner's insurance.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 11:23:34 AM by JenniferW »

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2022, 11:30:48 AM »
We have a $5000 deductible on our roof with full replacement regardless of age.  So whenever it gives out it will cost us $5000.  I don't think it cost us much to add full replacement to our homeowner's insurance policy with that large of a deductible -- was like $25 a year or something.   The roof was $8000 to install in 2013.  And after it does out, it will be replaced with Timberline HD architectural shingles again which is top of the line and holds up well in this Oklahoma weather.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 11:34:06 AM by JenniferW »

SeattleCPA

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2022, 11:37:47 AM »
@JenniferW , for what it's worth, I think houses are an investment. And should be viewed that way (if you're trying to build wealth and smartly construct your investment portfolio) because you'll make better decisions when you think that way.

We don't agree on treating a primary residence as an investment, but I completely agree that if one is going think of it this way they should really treat it as an investor would. Always be accounting for all costs compared to imputed rents, and make property management decisions through the same lens: Landscaping? Keep it basic and low maintenance, just enough to keep the curb appeal, nothing fancy or expensive. Same with remodels and paint and flooring. Neutral colors, low maintenance, high durability. None of the "we're going to spend $100k remodeling the kitchen because it's an investment!" nonsense. (Just to be clear, not accusing OP of this, I just see it All. The. Time.)

But the problem with all this accounting is that it's mostly not actionable. Let's say you live in an area that's cheaper to rent than own. In this situation your house really sucks as an investment property. Generally speaking, it is under-performing and you should sell and put the capital to better use elsewhere. On the other hand, let's say you live in an area that's cheaper to own than rent. In this situation you are the "renter" (e.g. the imputed rents) which means you're eating your own profits. However, you have to live somewhere so it's not like you can simply vacate the house to cash in on the rent potential, unless you're doing the geoarbitrage thing but that's an entirely different discussion. So wile you can account for a primary residence as an investment, you can't really act on it as such, because no matter how you look at it you really shouldn't live in it. Again, a home is really a type of consumption.

The argument above, though impassioned, doesn't mesh with modern capital budgeting techniques.

One can calculate an IRR on a house. Or better yet an NPV. If someone else here doesn't know the mechanics of how to do this, fine. Not a problem. But don't say it can't be done. It can.

And then how it's actionable? Well, again, think in terms of modern capital budgeting techniques. Ration the available capital to the highest IRR or better yet highest NPV choices.

I think this "houses aren't investments" debate may partly be an example of what Novel prize winner Daniel Kahnemann called System 1 thinking. I feel like Im seeing a reliance on rules of thumb, popular narratives from guys like Collins... But people can do System 2 thinking. They can do good, detailed analysis by thinking of houses as investments.

Ditto for things like an education. Sure people can ignore the investment nature of college. But they shouldn't. Treat it as an investment and I am confident you get a better return on your time and treasure.

Again, really encourage folks to do the math. Please. What's the IRR? Or again better yet what's the NPV? How does that compare to what someone would get in some other investment?

Final observation for anyone who is still tracking this argument: What I plead for folks to consider here is what every sophisticated business already does. E.g., business will spend money for a factory. Do they rent? Or do they buy. To optimize, they view that choice like an investment. And that analysis looks exactly like the analysis that a homeowner can do... and that analysis allows a homeowner to make better decisions. That analysis rations capital based on metrics like an IRR (if you want to go simple) or using an NPV if you want to include risk.

P.S. About 20 years I wrote a book called the MBA's Guide to Microsoft Excel. A number of big graduate business schools picked that title up for their classes that covered the practical aspects of capital budgeting (so treating big expenditures as investments). You can get copies of the chapters from that book and then the Excel templates that came with the book from my personal website, stephenlnelson.com In case someone is interested.

jnw

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2022, 11:40:34 AM »
We did have a sewage problem.. a T connector broke under the kitchen sink.  It required plumber to cut hole in the kitchen tile to repair.  The sewage line under the sink had the wrong part, whoever repaired it before used the wrong part; so the snake kept hitting it and punched a hole in the plastic T connector.  It should of had an angled T type connector, to direct the water, lint, snake etc. from washing machine to the left instead of straight into the T.

That cost $2500 and it required replacing all the tile in the kitchen as well.   The insurance paid the $2500 plus gave us $7000 for the tile in the kitchen.  We had to pay a $1000 deducible.  But we did the tile ourselves for around $1200.  So $2200 out of our pocket.   But we used the remaining $7000 - $2200 = $4800 to be directly applied to the principle of the mortage loan.  This got rid of the $100 per month Mortgage insurance I was having to pay.   So actually we actually made out quite well.  Needless to say I probably won't ever do away with my homeowner's insurance.  I like the coverage we've had so far.. saved our butts.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 11:49:16 AM by JenniferW »

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2022, 12:45:34 PM »
Well said nereo.

OP, have your roof is now 10 years old and will need replacement in 5-10 years. Even at 8k that's a lot of cash that you will soon need. How about HVAC? How about siding, plumbing, sewer drains, driveway, I could go on and on. You may have not had to do them yet, but they will be required at one point. Those are big ticket items that will for sure require more cash and skew the numbers greatly. 

On the positive side, that's awesome OP that you aren't spending 3k or whatever for a fridge or washre/dryer. Kudos!

BUT... I just don't understand SeattleCPA or Jennifer's argument at all for this particular case study of purchase price of 78k to 100k 10 years later. 2.18%/y return over the hottest market ever lol (13+%/y). It was about as bad as an investment as one could do.

For the last time these two statements can both be true:
1. It was a good decision for OP to buy the home compared to renting and for personal reasons.
2. It was a terrible "investment" because your home is still worth what you paid for.

A renter still pays for all the maintenance , it's just spread out more evenly over time.  Landlords have to charge enough for maintenance,  vacancies,  higher property tax and insurance, stricter building codes in some areas,  the occasional tenant that damages something  or stiffs them, etc. and make a little profit for their trouble.  That's why buying is usually cheaper as long as you plan to stay in the property a few years. If this wasn't the case then nobody would be a landlord ever.

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Re: I don't understand those who say owning your own home is bad investment
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2022, 12:47:49 PM »
The argument above, though impassioned, doesn't mesh with modern capital budgeting techniques.

One can calculate an IRR on a house. Or better yet an NPV. If someone else here doesn't know the mechanics of how to do this, fine. Not a problem. But don't say it can't be done. It can.

And then how it's actionable? Well, again, think in terms of modern capital budgeting techniques. Ration the available capital to the highest IRR or better yet highest NPV choices.

I think this "houses aren't investments" debate may partly be an example of what Novel prize winner Daniel Kahnemann called System 1 thinking. I feel like Im seeing a reliance on rules of thumb, popular narratives from guys like Collins... But people can do System 2 thinking. They can do good, detailed analysis by thinking of houses as investments.

Ditto for things like an education. Sure people can ignore the investment nature of college. But they shouldn't. Treat it as an investment and I am confident you get a better return on your time and treasure.

Again, really encourage folks to do the math. Please. What's the IRR? Or again better yet what's the NPV? How does that compare to what someone would get in some other investment?

Final observation for anyone who is still tracking this argument: What I plead for folks to consider here is what every sophisticated business already does. E.g., business will spend money for a factory. Do they rent? Or do they buy. To optimize, they view that choice like an investment. And that analysis looks exactly like the analysis that a homeowner can do... and that analysis allows a homeowner to make better decisions. That analysis rations capital based on metrics like an IRR (if you want to go simple) or using an NPV if you want to include risk.

P.S. About 20 years I wrote a book called the MBA's Guide to Microsoft Excel. A number of big graduate business schools picked that title up for their classes that covered the practical aspects of capital budgeting (so treating big expenditures as investments). You can get copies of the chapters from that book and then the Excel templates that came with the book from my personal website, stephenlnelson.com In case someone is interested.

LOL. Please, tell me more about what I'm thinking ;-)

My response is impassioned primarily because I'm tired of seeing people do crazy things with housing due to conventional wisdom like "a home is an investment." This is often perpetuated by well meaning folks (mostly those who got lucky and happened to buy at the right time in areas that experienced huge price run-ups) and realtors selling a product. As a secondary concern, I don't think the home-as-investment mindset is good for society since it encourages homeowners to maximize their "investment" by advocating for housing scarcity, but that's a topic for another thread.

Imagine you're getting to know a new friend:
You: "So what do you do for a living?"
Friend: "Well, I own a restaurant."
You: "Sounds fascinating. Which restaurant, I'd like to try it out?"
Friend: "Oh, it's not like that. It's at my home."
You: "So, you sell food out of your home? Is it like a catering business or something?"
Friend: "No, I don't actually sell food. I just treat my kitchen as a business. Instead of going out, I make my own food and keep track of the costs and what I the food would theoretically cost if I did sell it."
You: "Huh? But you don't actually sell food?"
Friend: "No. But look at how much profit I made last month! Things are really looking up after I added Wagyu steak to the menu."
You:  (☉_☉)

I'm sorry, but this is what I see when I hear "my home is an investment" - I can't help it. Again, not saying it's always a bad financial decision. And certainly eating in generally saves a lot of money, which is also true of owning in certain areas. I just don't see it as an investment, never will, and nothing I'm reading here sways me in the least bit. So I give up. Treat it as an investment if you must, but please, don't do it superficially (actually run the numbers) and don't lose sight of the fact that you are using this "investment" instead of it being used to generate income.