Author Topic: Vitamin Supplements?  (Read 7994 times)

wildbeast

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Vitamin Supplements?
« on: October 17, 2016, 11:01:01 AM »
I keep hearing two different, and opposing, messages:

1.  We need to take vitamin supplements because our food doesn't have the nutrients it used to due to bad soil, overproduction, etc... And it's hard for most people to get the nutrients needed from diet alone.

2.  Taking vitamins is useless because they just get washed out in the urine. 

As I get older, and especially during winter time when the sun is scarce, I'm wondering if I should take some.  Wondering what you guys have to say about it. 

In particular, has anyone taken Vitamin B-12 supplements?  Have they been helpful? 

ketchup

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2016, 11:12:16 AM »
Definitely take vitamin supplements if you have a specific deficiency (you can get yourself tested if you're paranoid).  Vitamin D can make sense if you live in a dark climate, are not outside often, etc.

B12 in particular is abundant in animal products so without some outside cause for deficiency it's likely that you get plenty unless you are vegan or near-vegan.

The main nutrient I've heard affected by soil depletion and the like is magnesium.  If you test low for magnesium, that could make sense to supplement.  Or, even better, eat more magnesium-rich foods and get all kinds of other nutrients along the way.

If you don't eat fish often, fish oil can make sense, as the modern diet is swimming in omega-6.

I like to think of certain nutrient-dense foods as "supplements" and focus on eating them more often.  Fish/shellfish, brazil nuts, egg yolks, liver, dark leafy greens, kimchi, berries, etc.

robartsd

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2016, 11:29:55 AM »
DW has difficulty with B-12 deficiencies. We used to take vitamins containing the cyanocobalamin form of B-12. I never noticed any improvement from taking cyanocobalamin; however, there was a big difference when we switched to sublingual methylcobalamin tablets. We currently get our B-12 at Costco. If you suspect that you are lacking in B-12 I would recommend trying this.

FINate

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2016, 11:38:02 AM »
The vitamin and supplement industry is huge, and like every other industry their primary goal is to get you to buy their products, even if you don't need them. Also, in recent years we've learned that taking vitamins/supplements can in fact be detrimental to health in certain cases, which is not really surprising when considering that we need nutrients because they have some effect on our bodies, and no substance has only good effects at all doses (even plain water is toxic at a high dose).

That said, in some cases people do have a deficiency, but these are almost always the result of an underlying medical/genetic issue, poor diet, or diminished ability to absorb nutrients as we age. If you think you may have a vitamin deficiency, i.e. you have some underlying symptom, then go the Dr. and get a proper diagnosis and treatment, which can sometimes mean injection rather than oral supplements. Unsurprisingly, the vitamin industry pushes oral supplements (their product) over injections. If you don't have a diagnosed reason, then save your money.

Additional things to consider:
- Improve your diet. IMO people consume too much sugar/processed foods and not enough simple fresh foods: meats/veggies/legumes/dairy/grains
- Practicing good sleep hygiene (regular sleep/wake time and enough hours)
- Consume less alcohol (which can itself cause deficiencies)

tonysemail

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2016, 12:31:24 PM »
agreed with FINate on the general topic of supplementing diet. 
I have nothing to say specifically about B-12 supplement.

If you haven't read the article called The Vitamin Myth, it's a compelling story about the birth of the supplement industry.
I love this story.  It speaks to me and I don't know why =P

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/07/the-vitamin-myth-why-we-think-we-need-supplements/277947/
"On October 10, 2011, researchers from the University of Minnesota found that women who took supplemental multivitamins died at rates higher than those who didn't. Two days later, researchers from the Cleveland Clinic found that men who took vitamin E had an increased risk of prostate cancer. "It's been a tough week for vitamins," said Carrie Gann of ABC News.

These findings weren't new. Seven previous studies had already shown that vitamins increased the risk of cancer and heart disease and shortened lives. Still, in 2012, more than half of all Americans took some form of vitamin supplements. What few people realize, however, is that their fascination with vitamins can be traced back to one man. A man who was so spectacularly right that he won two Nobel Prizes and so spectacularly wrong that he was arguably the world's greatest quack."


A lot of people assume that vitamins can do NO harm, whereas medical trials have shown the opposite.
If you start with the assumption that you should take as LITTLE as you NEED, then you're heading in a good direction.


Rubyvroom

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2016, 01:24:43 PM »
Posting to follow. I've been wondering a lot about supplements myself as I scour our budget for other areas to cut unnecessary spending. My husband and I currently take a multi-vitamin and fish oil, both "food based" which tend to be more expensive. FYI we both dislike fish in our diet - just not a fan - so we would not be getting fish oil any other way.

My dog has had TTA surgeries on both knees (torn CCL ligaments) in the last year and the vet suggested we put her on fish oil to help with joint stability because she absolutely will develop arthritis as a result of the joint issues she's experienced. We also keep turmeric on hand as a natural anti-inflammatory for her. We've encountered a number of things they tried to sell to us since the surgeries that we either ignored, or tried for a short time and discontinued, including a joint-stability multi-vitamin (for the dog) and glucosamine chondroiton supplements. Dogs don't get a placebo affect so if I'm not seeing improvement from a supplement, it's easy to discontinue (especially when you're questioning why you're giving a dog a supplement to begin with).

I feel like I'm always on the verge of being swooped up into the next big supplement craze and it's hard to identify the snake oil from the useful supplements (maybe it's all snake oil).

To OP, I don't have any experience with B vitamins, other than what is in our multi-vitamin.

Hotstreak

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2016, 03:00:15 PM »
I have taken vitamin D3 and seemed to have benefits from it.  I live a ways from the equator and spend most of my day inside, so it makes sense that my body isn't generating enough during the winter months.  It helps that it's about $0.04/day, and I only take it 150 days a year or so (total: $6.00/year).  The rest of the year the weather's nice enough that I'm outside in a short sleeved shirt most afternoons.  I only take it during the week, since I end up outside on the weekends year round.

If you're already at your Dr office ask them to order a blood test for you for the specific things (B12 and D3), it should cost $50 or less, and you should not need a follow up appointment.  The results are simple enough that you can interpret them yourself.

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2016, 03:49:52 PM »
I have taken vitamin D3 and seemed to have benefits from it.  I live a ways from the equator and spend most of my day inside, so it makes sense that my body isn't generating enough during the winter months.  It helps that it's about $0.04/day, and I only take it 150 days a year or so (total: $6.00/year).  The rest of the year the weather's nice enough that I'm outside in a short sleeved shirt most afternoons.  I only take it during the week, since I end up outside on the weekends year round.

If you're already at your Dr office ask them to order a blood test for you for the specific things (B12 and D3), it should cost $50 or less, and you should not need a follow up appointment.  The results are simple enough that you can interpret them yourself.

+1

Get a blood test if you are concerned. How can you know to supplement something if you don't have any data suggesting you are deficient in something?

Just because other people take 'Supplement X' doesn't mean you should. Your physiology is quite unique.

I'm a relatively relaxed vegan.  My blood test showed a mild vitamin D defiency, which is very common in the population during the winter months where I live, but no other issues. I've only started taking b12 recently as it's the only micro nutrient you can't get on a vegan diet (although trace amounts are found in mushrooms and other foods with soil on them, and a b12 deficiency has some pretty pretty unpleasant effects.

But most omnivores eating balanced diets (mostly plants, a little bit of other things) in the developed should be okay nutrient wise.  The bigger issue is too much protein, too much obesity!

onlykelsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2016, 04:32:04 PM »
If you suspect you're short on something and want to supplement it, I'd second the recommendation for a blood test and add a recommendation for genetic testing.  I have had an awful Vitamin D and folate deficiency every time I've been tested (and have symptoms to go along with it), but it turns out many forms of supplementation are ineffective because I have a genetic abnormality that the blood panel or symptoms alone couldn't have revealed.

I do think that for a lot of people, taking a look at every area of your life and seeing where you can improve before adding supplements or drugs is a good idea.

Anatidae V

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2016, 09:46:03 PM »
I have only taken supplements after a blood test has indicated a deficiency, in my case iron and vit D. I'm on iron + a b-complex at the moment because I'm pregnant, but normally I'm comfortable that I have enough variety in my diet that I don't need to worry about a "just in case" supplement.

Rubyvroom

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2016, 06:43:57 AM »
Sorry if this hijacks this post, but perhaps a brand question might help OP find a good vitamin B-12 supplement.

Does anyone have a brand of fish oil they recommend? We take Gardens of Life Oceans 3 Beyond Omega 3. I have no complaints other than price. At ~$20 per bottle (60ct), taking 2 pills per day for 2 adults, that's $1.34 a day or about $40 a month. Are there any other brands out there that folks recommend?

MudDuck

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2016, 08:10:25 AM »
DW has difficulty with B-12 deficiencies. We used to take vitamins containing the cyanocobalamin form of B-12. I never noticed any improvement from taking cyanocobalamin; however, there was a big difference when we switched to sublingual methylcobalamin tablets. We currently get our B-12 at Costco. If you suspect that you are lacking in B-12 I would recommend trying this.

+1

B-12 needs to be sublingual, or intramuscular injections.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 11:06:15 AM »
DW has difficulty with B-12 deficiencies. We used to take vitamins containing the cyanocobalamin form of B-12. I never noticed any improvement from taking cyanocobalamin; however, there was a big difference when we switched to sublingual methylcobalamin tablets. We currently get our B-12 at Costco. If you suspect that you are lacking in B-12 I would recommend trying this.

Thanks robartsd!  I just picked these up at Costco.  Do you remember how long it took to see any difference?


misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 04:12:40 PM »
re: Omega 3, you don't need to resort to the fishies, or fish oil capsules to get your Omega 3s.

http://plenteousveg.com/vegan-sources-omega-3/

I'm not posting this to suggest that you go vegan. Rather, because you can get adequate supplies of Omega 3 on a plant based diet, it follows that on a balanced omnivore diet you may get all the oils you need without having to supplement.

Obviously this does not apply if you have some analysis that suggests you have a identifiable deficiency. But everything else is guesswork and Big Supplement loves you handing over your money just in case.


misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2016, 08:58:23 PM »
I think most people on MMM are pretty good at seeing through the vested interests of financial advisers, active fund managers etc etc.  It would be great if they also were to apply the same scrutiny to their health and the costs of maintaining health.

I don't know your circumstances or your own health situation so I wouldn't think about second guessing the choices you've made. I'm sure you've made them for the right reasons.

However, I would disagree with the notion that 'most people would benefit from a [Omega 3] supplement'. I'd accept that kind of advice from a company in the business of selling supplements. However, I think the onus on individuals is to use their best efforts to inform themselves about their health, and their dietary needs, to research what's out there and whether it's suitable.

You can get some Omega-3's from your diet, but I still think most people would benefit from a supplement for two reasons.

1) If you want optimal health and not just avoiding an acute deficiency, you'd have to basically live off of salmon (like maybe a pound a day) or something to get optimal amounts of EPA and DHA from diet alone.

Are you suggesting that without supplementing it's not possible to have optimal health?  That seems quite a bold claim.

I would go further and even question what is meant by optimal health.  If you live a sedentary life, office bound, no exercise, and eat processed food high in sugar, sure take a supplement. But you've got deeper issues.

Meanwhile, if you eat a balanced diet high in fibre, fresh veg, fruit and a bit of meat (although, that's optional) and you spend a lot of time doing exercise - you may well find that this lifestyle is sufficient for you to feel pretty good and you may not feel any deficiency in your energy levels or health to warrant a supplement.

 

2) While many plant based sources such as flax seeds contain Omega-3's they mostly have ALA, alpha-linolenic acid. That's great, but it's a different purpose from what fish oil is for. Most people end up converting very little of it to EPA and DHA. Maybe 5% if you're lucky. Things like kelp that do contain EPA and DHA contain very little.

You don't need a fancy brand fish oil though. I've used the Kirkland brand and it has worked great for me. I'm currently experimenting with the super fancy Nordic Naturals brand and so far it seems to have comparable effects. I don't need to take as much, but it costs more per unit mass so the Kirkland is better at least on pure cost terms.

My point about the vegan sources of omega 3 is that there are plenty of sources out there. So that if you have a restrictive vegan diet you can still source enough.  If you don't have a vegan diet there are plenty more fish in the sea and the need to supplement relies on the individual.


I'm not against supplements. There are individuals with a myriad of lifestyles, deficiencies, situations, genetics that need to be supported through supplements.  But the notion that everyone needs to resort to them, and the solution is to supplement a diet, rather than building up a robust and healthy diet to form the foundations of a health diet, needs to be thought through carefully.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 11:44:18 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone!  Very interesting reading.

@AlienRobotAnthropologist - thanks for the detailed summary.  I'm glad to see that some of the supplements are working well for you.  I did see on Amazon that many people do favor the Yarrow brand and I might try it out next to see how it compares with the Costco brand.  I'm hoping it will work the same because the Costco brand is much cheaper and easier to get!  :)  I've been thinking of trying out some glucosamine because I've been having some sugar and carb cravings and it's supposed to help with that.  And I hadn't heard anything about creatine so might look into that as I do workout regularly and my joints are not what they used to be.

Question for you AlienRobotAnthropologist:  How long does it typically take for you to notice a difference when you introduce a supplement?

As far as my reason for wanting to try the B-12:  I suffer from SAD (seasonal affective disorder) aka 'the winter blues' and with the weather changes I felt myself drifting into the lethargic, want to sleep all day, blahness that is typical of SAD.  From what I've read b-12 is helpful for that and you can only get it through specific sources.  My diet has been suffering because part of the SAD means I reach way too often for sugary carbs instead of real food and I have not been getting enough b12 from my diet.  I'm also making a concerted effort to improve my diet by adding more salmon, cod, beef, shrimp, etc... but I want to supplement that with the vitamins because I want to nip the SAD in the bud.  Asap.  It's kind of hard to get out of it if you let yourself get too deep into it.  At it's worst it feels just like deep depression.

I'm also making sure to include exercise everyday and lots of fresh fruits and veggies.  But, I know my chemical makeup is compromised.  So I'm being proactive and looking at all the options available to me.

ETA:  I also do the light box therapy and most years that's enough, but I've had a rough couple of months and I fear I've been depleted and need to shore up my resources a bit.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 02:11:15 PM by M.Darcy »

robartsd

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 01:52:16 PM »
DW has difficulty with B-12 deficiencies. We used to take vitamins containing the cyanocobalamin form of B-12. I never noticed any improvement from taking cyanocobalamin; however, there was a big difference when we switched to sublingual methylcobalamin tablets. We currently get our B-12 at Costco. If you suspect that you are lacking in B-12 I would recommend trying this.

Thanks robartsd!  I just picked these up at Costco.  Do you remember how long it took to see any difference?
We had previously been supplementing with "Super B Complex". I think it provided some benefit to DW, but I never noticed a difference. When we learned about methylcobalamin vs. cyanocobalamin and difference in taking sublingual rather than swallowed, we switched (at first we were using a different brand - then found the Costco alternative). Sublingual absorption gets to your blood stream quickly - we actually felt a difference by the time the first tablet had completely dissolved under our tongues. I start to notice a decline if I miss taking it a few days in a row (I usually take one each morning). I suspect that I could cut my dose in half and not notice a difference. DW has a greater need for B-12 supplements (she takes one each morning and night) and notices a decline sooner (24-48 hours of not taking any).

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 02:14:53 PM »
DW has difficulty with B-12 deficiencies. We used to take vitamins containing the cyanocobalamin form of B-12. I never noticed any improvement from taking cyanocobalamin; however, there was a big difference when we switched to sublingual methylcobalamin tablets. We currently get our B-12 at Costco. If you suspect that you are lacking in B-12 I would recommend trying this.

Thanks robartsd!  I just picked these up at Costco.  Do you remember how long it took to see any difference?
We had previously been supplementing with "Super B Complex". I think it provided some benefit to DW, but I never noticed a difference. When we learned about methylcobalamin vs. cyanocobalamin and difference in taking sublingual rather than swallowed, we switched (at first we were using a different brand - then found the Costco alternative). Sublingual absorption gets to your blood stream quickly - we actually felt a difference by the time the first tablet had completely dissolved under our tongues. I start to notice a decline if I miss taking it a few days in a row (I usually take one each morning). I suspect that I could cut my dose in half and not notice a difference. DW has a greater need for B-12 supplements (she takes one each morning and night) and notices a decline sooner (24-48 hours of not taking any).

Thanks for the reply.  I might need to do 2 doses as well, like your wife.  I've been feeling better and generally more energetic - I was dancing around last night!  But the mornings are still tough.  I don't get an energy lift till late afternoon.  I've been doing one dose in the morning and that might not be enough.  Tonight I'm going to take another dose and see how I feel tomorrow.  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. 

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 04:09:03 PM »
Sorry to hear you're dealing with the S.A.Ds.

The black dog is always lurking around the corner for me. I tend to keep him at bay with non-stop cycling.  I've never been able to deal with him directly.  Luckily for me I've found that my solution is to keep running away from him, via exercise. Keep the mind occupied with the mediation of the pedals, which distracts me, and eventually the feel good chemicals kick in. Hope you find a process that works for you.

Some reading on B12

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vitamin-b12-the-energy-panacea/

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2016, 04:48:28 PM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

Pigeon

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2016, 05:45:10 PM »

My dog has had TTA surgeries on both knees (torn CCL ligaments) in the last year and the vet suggested we put her on fish oil to help with joint stability because she absolutely will develop arthritis as a result of the joint issues she's experienced. We also keep turmeric on hand as a natural anti-inflammatory for her. We've encountered a number of things they tried to sell to us since the surgeries that we either ignored, or tried for a short time and discontinued, including a joint-stability multi-vitamin (for the dog) and glucosamine chondroiton supplements. Dogs don't get a placebo affect so if I'm not seeing improvement from a supplement, it's easy to discontinue (especially when you're questioning why you're giving a dog a supplement to begin with).


Oddly enough, they do.  http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161017-why-animals-experience-the-placebo-effect-much-like-we-do


Rubyvroom

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Torran

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2016, 07:09:54 AM »
Interesting. A while back in British news there was a flurry of articles saying that vitamin supplements are at best useless and at worst actively harmful.

One example -

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vitamin-pills-are-a-waste-of-money-offer-no-health-benefits-and-could-be-harmful-study-9010303.html

I have an auto-immune disorder (luckily mild) and was advised to take vitamin D so I do that. Not sure if it's helping because how can you tell, really? But I have had hardly any symptoms for the past four years so hey, maybe it is. I'm going to keep taking the Vit D anyway because I'm not experiencing any downsides.

I take fish oil also.

I don't take anything else because personally I think the key is healthy diet - if you can get everything you need from your diet then that's what you should be doing. Also saves money.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2016, 08:54:06 AM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.   

Torran

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2016, 09:04:00 AM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

Sorry to hear this and I hope you find the strategies/supplements that work for you. Best of luck!

onlykelsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2016, 09:12:17 AM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

I've been struggling with something similar recently as well, although I think it may be some sort pre-partum depression/anxiety in my case.  One of my genetic tests indicated that I process folic acid at ~28% the average rate, which is terrifying given how crucial it is for babies' development/avoidance of spinal issues/etc.  Thankfully my kid has been checking out fine, but I've started taking sublingual b12 and folate in an activated form (NOT what's in normal folic acid supplements or my prenatal vitamins) and am hoping that will help soon.

I think I mentioned it above, but if you have $100 to burn, I would really check out 23andme or a similar dna testing service, and run your raw results through a bunch of analyses. 

kandj

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2016, 11:03:23 AM »
I've been taking B-12 as a Super B Complex with C for the last couple years. As a vegetarian I do not get as much as I need. I'm not completely convinced that is really helps but I figure to cover the base is enough. I have read that B-12 in a vitamin is not the same as B-12 from an amimal source but I have never been able to confirm or deny that either way. Essentially it is claimed that there are 2 forms of B-12, but I am not a nutritionist and don't know.
I do not notice any benefit for SAD but I do notice my metabolism level seems a little higher. The super complex makes urine look a little bit like mountain dew but you probably wouldn't notice that if you only took B-12, I think B-6 does that. Hopefully you figure out something that works well! I've been debating switching to a probiotic once I run out of my current supply and see if that does anything for me.

robartsd

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2016, 11:17:25 AM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 12:29:23 PM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings. 

I do suspect I have a gut bacteria imbalance due to some serious antibiotic use over the years.  I have a dairy allergy so I can't do yogurt but I did try some probiotics over the years and did not see any changes. 

The thing with carbs is that over the summer I was eating a low-carb diet and was doing great.  No cravings once I got them out of my system.  But right now the struggle is that the cravings are so strong, I can't get them out of my system. 

I'm trying to 'manage' the situation by eating lots of sweet potatoes for the carbs and limiting the non-veggie carbs to bagels.  Not ideal, but better than all-out carb-fest.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:32:24 PM by M.Darcy »

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2016, 12:38:18 PM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

I've been struggling with something similar recently as well, although I think it may be some sort pre-partum depression/anxiety in my case.  One of my genetic tests indicated that I process folic acid at ~28% the average rate, which is terrifying given how crucial it is for babies' development/avoidance of spinal issues/etc.  Thankfully my kid has been checking out fine, but I've started taking sublingual b12 and folate in an activated form (NOT what's in normal folic acid supplements or my prenatal vitamins) and am hoping that will help soon.

I think I mentioned it above, but if you have $100 to burn, I would really check out 23andme or a similar dna testing service, and run your raw results through a bunch of analyses.

The thing with serotonin is that testing is not feasible.  I don't think there's a way to test serotonin levels in the body yet, but even if that is possible, you can't test for uptake - same as B-12 - so if the system is compromised and the body can't metabolize or uptake the chemicals/nutrients then you'll still be deficient, even if your body or diet is able to produce enough of them.  I think the whole system has to be working well in order for everything to go smoothly. 

I know that my serotonin is compromised, I just don't know if adding more of it is the answer, or if there's something else going on.  Dna testing does sound interesting though. 

onlykelsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2016, 12:51:02 PM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

I've been struggling with something similar recently as well, although I think it may be some sort pre-partum depression/anxiety in my case.  One of my genetic tests indicated that I process folic acid at ~28% the average rate, which is terrifying given how crucial it is for babies' development/avoidance of spinal issues/etc.  Thankfully my kid has been checking out fine, but I've started taking sublingual b12 and folate in an activated form (NOT what's in normal folic acid supplements or my prenatal vitamins) and am hoping that will help soon.

I think I mentioned it above, but if you have $100 to burn, I would really check out 23andme or a similar dna testing service, and run your raw results through a bunch of analyses.

The thing with serotonin is that testing is not feasible.  I don't think there's a way to test serotonin levels in the body yet, but even if that is possible, you can't test for uptake - same as B-12 - so if the system is compromised and the body can't metabolize or uptake the chemicals/nutrients then you'll still be deficient, even if your body or diet is able to produce enough of them.  I think the whole system has to be working well in order for everything to go smoothly. 

I know that my serotonin is compromised, I just don't know if adding more of it is the answer, or if there's something else going on.  Dna testing does sound interesting though. 

I don't know how often this is the reason for serotonin issues, but one of the mutations I have is this: http://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/35/MTHFR-Gene-Mutation-and-Treatment-Resistant-Depression.html (also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health) and can be tested for.  I'm hoping biologically active methylfolate will either raise my folic acid levels and solve the problem, or raise them enough that other drugs that affect serotonin can actually work.

Anatidae V

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2016, 04:33:37 PM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings. 

I do suspect I have a gut bacteria imbalance due to some serious antibiotic use over the years.  I have a dairy allergy so I can't do yogurt but I did try some probiotics over the years and did not see any changes. 

The thing with carbs is that over the summer I was eating a low-carb diet and was doing great.  No cravings once I got them out of my system.  But right now the struggle is that the cravings are so strong, I can't get them out of my system. 

I'm trying to 'manage' the situation by eating lots of sweet potatoes for the carbs and limiting the non-veggie carbs to bagels.  Not ideal, but better than all-out carb-fest.
Dairy-free yoghurt is available now, some brands base theirs in coconut milk instead. You might find one you can eat.

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2016, 09:24:20 PM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

Yes, the cycling has been great for me.  It's given me a go-to quick fix if I feel melancholy approaching. If I feel a low approaching I'll tell myself to go for a ride - even though I may not particularly feel like going for a ride. But I kind of make a promise to myself to just try it.

Interior monologue is a bit like: "You feel depressed. That's okay. It will pass. As it always does. Eventually. In the meantime, rather than just lie down why don't you go for a ride to improve your fitness as when you're not depressed anymore you'll appreciate it." So then I go for the ride, not thinking it will do anything, and then afterwards I am always inevitably feeling better for it.  It took me years to figure out how to negotiate with my unmotivated self. A lot of trial and error.


misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2016, 09:44:19 PM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings. 

I do suspect I have a gut bacteria imbalance due to some serious antibiotic use over the years.  I have a dairy allergy so I can't do yogurt but I did try some probiotics over the years and did not see any changes. 

The thing with carbs is that over the summer I was eating a low-carb diet and was doing great.  No cravings once I got them out of my system.  But right now the struggle is that the cravings are so strong, I can't get them out of my system. 

I'm trying to 'manage' the situation by eating lots of sweet potatoes for the carbs and limiting the non-veggie carbs to bagels.  Not ideal, but better than all-out carb-fest.

On the carbs and the cravings, just a thought. This is based on my own experience, and a sample size of one is of questionable value, so take it with a grain of salt. Or other non-blood pressure raising spice.

- Cravings for a certain type of food aren't necessarily for that particular food, but for the sugars or nutrients/minerals they provide. 
- Food habits are formed by habit and can be changed into better habits.

I used to be a chicken pasta with cream sauce, chocolate bar and can of coke for lunch kind of guy. I got into the habit of it and I got addicted to the simple carbs and sugars these kinds of meal provided. I was working 10-12 hour days in corporate land at this stage.

Over many years I learnt to increase the amount of fresh veg, lower the amount of simple carbs. I eventually weaned myself off sugary drinks as well.  It took a long time to do so but once you stop eating these kinds of foods you stop also craving them. But it can take a long time to feel normal about it.  I'm now vegan-ish, and a few years ago this diet would have seem strange and deprived, but I'm really happy with it for now.

So your palate changes, but it does take a while to adjust. 

Regarding cravings, I've found that when I get a little lazy and eat a lot of simple carbs (pasta, bread, rice) for convenience, I slowly start developing cravings for meat.  However, rather than go out an get a hamburger or steak I ramp up the amount of leafy greens, legumes and nuts I eat and the craving goes away.  It seems that by eating so many simple carbs I end up going a bit deficient in vitamins and minerals so I start craving foods that will give me these things. Since I've been a meat eater for 35+ years I associate the desire for these nutrients with the usual source of them - meat. However, now I know I can get these nutrients from other sources I can and I do.

Relating back to you, you mention that you eat a lot of fruit and veg - but you still eat a lot of carbs.  Bagels are probably the most dense form of simple carbohydrate you can think of.  Your body converts the refined carbohydrate into sugar quickly giving you a blood sugar a bit of a spike and leaving you wanting more.  And so you crave more. This is a really common situation.

There's nothing wrong with carbs.  I eat a tonne of sugar when I'm cycling. But the amounts need to be matched to the amount of energy you're expending.

Forgive me if you've tried these techniques already, but perhaps keep the refined carbs, but reduce them down significantly. But truly overcompensate with complex carbs like leafy greens. The sweet potato is on the right track. Allow yourself to eat as much of that as you can. If you give your body as much healthy fresh veg as it wants,  as well as protein via meat or legumes etc, you may find you fill yourself up with nutrient dense fibre, and wean yourself off the craving and adjust your palate and then find yourself with more energy.

Sleep is important too.

Anyway, these thoughts came to me as I was reading your post.  Feel free to disregard but hoping that it might give you some ideas if you haven't come across them before.



Johnez

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2016, 02:39:52 AM »
Very interesting thread going here. Question-how do you guys go about testing for vitamin deficiencies? I've not been to a doctor in years, not sure where to start. Any other useful blood panels? Just turned 30, the spectre of diabetes and heart problems are starting to weigh on my mind.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2016, 10:38:05 AM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

I've been struggling with something similar recently as well, although I think it may be some sort pre-partum depression/anxiety in my case.  One of my genetic tests indicated that I process folic acid at ~28% the average rate, which is terrifying given how crucial it is for babies' development/avoidance of spinal issues/etc.  Thankfully my kid has been checking out fine, but I've started taking sublingual b12 and folate in an activated form (NOT what's in normal folic acid supplements or my prenatal vitamins) and am hoping that will help soon.

I think I mentioned it above, but if you have $100 to burn, I would really check out 23andme or a similar dna testing service, and run your raw results through a bunch of analyses.

The thing with serotonin is that testing is not feasible.  I don't think there's a way to test serotonin levels in the body yet, but even if that is possible, you can't test for uptake - same as B-12 - so if the system is compromised and the body can't metabolize or uptake the chemicals/nutrients then you'll still be deficient, even if your body or diet is able to produce enough of them.  I think the whole system has to be working well in order for everything to go smoothly. 

I know that my serotonin is compromised, I just don't know if adding more of it is the answer, or if there's something else going on.  Dna testing does sound interesting though. 

I don't know how often this is the reason for serotonin issues, but one of the mutations I have is this: http://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/35/MTHFR-Gene-Mutation-and-Treatment-Resistant-Depression.html (also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health) and can be tested for.  I'm hoping biologically active methylfolate will either raise my folic acid levels and solve the problem, or raise them enough that other drugs that affect serotonin can actually work.

Wow, this is really interesting stuff.  I'm sorry that you have to go through it though.  Have you seen any improvements since you've been treating it? 

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2016, 10:38:40 AM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings. 

I do suspect I have a gut bacteria imbalance due to some serious antibiotic use over the years.  I have a dairy allergy so I can't do yogurt but I did try some probiotics over the years and did not see any changes. 

The thing with carbs is that over the summer I was eating a low-carb diet and was doing great.  No cravings once I got them out of my system.  But right now the struggle is that the cravings are so strong, I can't get them out of my system. 

I'm trying to 'manage' the situation by eating lots of sweet potatoes for the carbs and limiting the non-veggie carbs to bagels.  Not ideal, but better than all-out carb-fest.
Dairy-free yoghurt is available now, some brands base theirs in coconut milk instead. You might find one you can eat.

Coconut yogurt sounds awesome.  I'm gonna look for it.  Thanks!

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2016, 10:41:03 AM »
And I'm very aware of this:

“There’s one thing that never helps people with depression: telling them that exercise will help.”

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/05/depression-busting-exercise-tips-for-people-too-depressed-to-exercise/

This is very true when you're in a depression!  :)  Luckily, I'm not there right now and I do exercise everyday.  But in the past couple of months I did use some of the tips from the article - working out in whatever you're wearing instead of changing into workout gear, breaking up the workout into doable sections over a couple of hours with breaks in between, etc... 

Good for you on cycling yourself to good mental health!  My joints can't take that kind of strenuous exercise anymore so I have to be careful.  I do a combo of circuit training, walking, gardening, housework, etc to stay active.  This used to be enough to keep me feeling great - fantastic energy, no carb or sugar cravings, etc.  But it's not doing the trick anymore.

I've been reading up on the B-12 and glucosamine (supposed to curb sugar cravings) as well as SAD.  The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.

Yes, the cycling has been great for me.  It's given me a go-to quick fix if I feel melancholy approaching. If I feel a low approaching I'll tell myself to go for a ride - even though I may not particularly feel like going for a ride. But I kind of make a promise to myself to just try it.

Interior monologue is a bit like: "You feel depressed. That's okay. It will pass. As it always does. Eventually. In the meantime, rather than just lie down why don't you go for a ride to improve your fitness as when you're not depressed anymore you'll appreciate it." So then I go for the ride, not thinking it will do anything, and then afterwards I am always inevitably feeling better for it.  It took me years to figure out how to negotiate with my unmotivated self. A lot of trial and error.

I'm so happy for you!  It's wonderful that you're able to take such good care of yourself.  Lately I've been telling myself this in the mornings when all I want to do is stay in bed, "Are you a child or an adult?"  It always makes me chuckle and gets me out of bed.  :)

onlykelsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2016, 10:45:44 AM »
I don't know how often this is the reason for serotonin issues, but one of the mutations I have is this: http://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/35/MTHFR-Gene-Mutation-and-Treatment-Resistant-Depression.html (also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health) and can be tested for.  I'm hoping biologically active methylfolate will either raise my folic acid levels and solve the problem, or raise them enough that other drugs that affect serotonin can actually work.

Wow, this is really interesting stuff.  I'm sorry that you have to go through it though.  Have you seen any improvements since you've been treating it?

I'm literally 8 days in to my new process (800 mg activated folic acid [should probably be higher but don't want to mess with it much during pregnancy] and 5000 mcg of methylcobalanin sublingual b12) so I'm not sure if things should be changing yet.  I've also been making a concerted effort to spend time outside in the sun between 12 and 3 for vitamin D issues, which maybe explains part of the effect. For the last few years, but especially the last few months, I have been an absolute sloth if I didn't have something scaring me out of bed (ie my boss Monday to Friday), and then cycled between sloth and extreme anxiety.  I was slightly less of a sloth/anxious mess this weekend, but I'm not convinced it was statistically significant or attributable to this.

At any rate, nothing has gotten worse, and it's a $30 experiment so far, so I'm going to keep with it for a while.  No negative side effects at all that I've seen.

ETA: One of the more valuable things I did (in addition to my 23andme) was get a targeted genetic analysis done (which my insurance didn't cover :() on my susceptability to certain types of psychiatric drugs. It's stuff that someone with a biology degree probably could have cobbled together using open source information and my raw data, but I am not a biology type, so I paid for someone else to analyze it.  In a way, it was depressing, because a lot of the standard medicines I am genetically unlikely to respond to, but it saved me lots of unnecessary playing with drugs.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 10:48:43 AM by onlykelsey »

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2016, 10:53:53 AM »
The main issue for me right now is the intense (and I mean intense) carb cravings, which is a major component of SAD.  The science does not support any findings that either of these two will address that issue.  What I might need is some more serotonin in the form of SSRI.  I'm giving that some serious thought right now.
In a MMM Forum thread about getting kids to eat healthy foods, someone suggested that gut bacteria can play a major role in the foods we crave. The specific related advice there was to get kids to eat foods with live cultures (like yogurt) to help establish more variety in the gut bacteria, leading to decreased pickiness in eating. It might be worth doing some research into this idea. I've also had a friend tell me she identified a gluten allergy in part based on carb cravings. 

I do suspect I have a gut bacteria imbalance due to some serious antibiotic use over the years.  I have a dairy allergy so I can't do yogurt but I did try some probiotics over the years and did not see any changes. 

The thing with carbs is that over the summer I was eating a low-carb diet and was doing great.  No cravings once I got them out of my system.  But right now the struggle is that the cravings are so strong, I can't get them out of my system. 

I'm trying to 'manage' the situation by eating lots of sweet potatoes for the carbs and limiting the non-veggie carbs to bagels.  Not ideal, but better than all-out carb-fest.

On the carbs and the cravings, just a thought. This is based on my own experience, and a sample size of one is of questionable value, so take it with a grain of salt. Or other non-blood pressure raising spice.

- Cravings for a certain type of food aren't necessarily for that particular food, but for the sugars or nutrients/minerals they provide. 
- Food habits are formed by habit and can be changed into better habits.

I used to be a chicken pasta with cream sauce, chocolate bar and can of coke for lunch kind of guy. I got into the habit of it and I got addicted to the simple carbs and sugars these kinds of meal provided. I was working 10-12 hour days in corporate land at this stage.

Over many years I learnt to increase the amount of fresh veg, lower the amount of simple carbs. I eventually weaned myself off sugary drinks as well.  It took a long time to do so but once you stop eating these kinds of foods you stop also craving them. But it can take a long time to feel normal about it.  I'm now vegan-ish, and a few years ago this diet would have seem strange and deprived, but I'm really happy with it for now.

So your palate changes, but it does take a while to adjust. 

Regarding cravings, I've found that when I get a little lazy and eat a lot of simple carbs (pasta, bread, rice) for convenience, I slowly start developing cravings for meat.  However, rather than go out an get a hamburger or steak I ramp up the amount of leafy greens, legumes and nuts I eat and the craving goes away.  It seems that by eating so many simple carbs I end up going a bit deficient in vitamins and minerals so I start craving foods that will give me these things. Since I've been a meat eater for 35+ years I associate the desire for these nutrients with the usual source of them - meat. However, now I know I can get these nutrients from other sources I can and I do.

Relating back to you, you mention that you eat a lot of fruit and veg - but you still eat a lot of carbs.  Bagels are probably the most dense form of simple carbohydrate you can think of.  Your body converts the refined carbohydrate into sugar quickly giving you a blood sugar a bit of a spike and leaving you wanting more.  And so you crave more. This is a really common situation.

There's nothing wrong with carbs.  I eat a tonne of sugar when I'm cycling. But the amounts need to be matched to the amount of energy you're expending.

Forgive me if you've tried these techniques already, but perhaps keep the refined carbs, but reduce them down significantly. But truly overcompensate with complex carbs like leafy greens. The sweet potato is on the right track. Allow yourself to eat as much of that as you can. If you give your body as much healthy fresh veg as it wants,  as well as protein via meat or legumes etc, you may find you fill yourself up with nutrient dense fibre, and wean yourself off the craving and adjust your palate and then find yourself with more energy.

Sleep is important too.

Anyway, these thoughts came to me as I was reading your post.  Feel free to disregard but hoping that it might give you some ideas if you haven't come across them before.

This is a really interesting theory.  In fact, I'm going to test it this week and do a journal about it.  It should be fun... all the sweet potatoes I can eat!  :)  Thank you misterhorsey!  I'm looking forward to this.

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2016, 10:59:49 AM »
I don't know how often this is the reason for serotonin issues, but one of the mutations I have is this: http://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/35/MTHFR-Gene-Mutation-and-Treatment-Resistant-Depression.html (also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-integrationist/201409/genetic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health) and can be tested for.  I'm hoping biologically active methylfolate will either raise my folic acid levels and solve the problem, or raise them enough that other drugs that affect serotonin can actually work.

Wow, this is really interesting stuff.  I'm sorry that you have to go through it though.  Have you seen any improvements since you've been treating it?

I'm literally 8 days in to my new process (800 mg activated folic acid [should probably be higher but don't want to mess with it much during pregnancy] and 5000 mcg of methylcobalanin sublingual b12) so I'm not sure if things should be changing yet.  I've also been making a concerted effort to spend time outside in the sun between 12 and 3 for vitamin D issues, which maybe explains part of the effect. For the last few years, but especially the last few months, I have been an absolute sloth if I didn't have something scaring me out of bed (ie my boss Monday to Friday), and then cycled between sloth and extreme anxiety.  I was slightly less of a sloth/anxious mess this weekend, but I'm not convinced it was statistically significant or attributable to this.

At any rate, nothing has gotten worse, and it's a $30 experiment so far, so I'm going to keep with it for a while.  No negative side effects at all that I've seen.

ETA: One of the more valuable things I did (in addition to my 23andme) was get a targeted genetic analysis done (which my insurance didn't cover :() on my susceptability to certain types of psychiatric drugs. It's stuff that someone with a biology degree probably could have cobbled together using open source information and my raw data, but I am not a biology type, so I paid for someone else to analyze it.  In a way, it was depressing, because a lot of the standard medicines I am genetically unlikely to respond to, but it saved me lots of unnecessary playing with drugs.

Congratulations on your pregnancy!  :)

I can understand wanting to be cautious.  And I so understand the getting out of bed issue.  That was so bad for me for a long time.  Actually found out I had sleep apnea and when I treated that things were much better.  I also have found that removing caffeine from my diet made a huge difference in my anxiety levels. I would never have guessed it. 

I hope you're able to find a good solution that helps you feel better and helps you enjoy your pregnancy and new baby-to-be. 

wildbeast

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2016, 11:08:15 AM »
B-12 Update:

I started to feel more happy and lively on Friday and it continued to improve over the weekend.  I don't know for sure if it's the supplements, placebo, or something else, but I'm glad to be feeling better.  I recruited my husband to try the B-12 to test that out.  He's 3 days in and has not noticed any changes but according to his research it might take a week for the body to metabolize the vitamin thru the liver. 

My carb cravings are still around, but it's starting to feel more like a habit than an intense craving that can't be ignored.  So it might be more accurate to say that my carb indulgence has continued.  Truthfully, I have not made a big effort to rein that in.  I wanted to focus on improving my mood and energy level first. 

I'm going to address the carbs separately using misterhorsey's theory.  But I do feel that my mood has improved significantly and I'm quite happy about that.  I don't feel like I have the blues anymore.  Yay!!!!!!

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2016, 04:00:04 PM »
This is a really interesting theory.  In fact, I'm going to test it this week and do a journal about it.  It should be fun... all the sweet potatoes I can eat!  :)  Thank you misterhorsey!  I'm looking forward to this.

Woops, I think my sentences ran into each other inadvertently.  I actually meant to suggest as many complex carbs as you can eat.  So all kinds of vegetables, but including sweet potatoes of course.

Any kind of vegetable is far better than a bagel - it has more fibre and a better range of nutrients.  Sweet potato, potato, pumpkin.  Mix it up.

I went from a 'salad won't fill me up, at all' to 'I'll have a salad for lunch please'. It's a shift in mindset and habit. Won't happen overnight, but can happen. Of course, your experience may be different. And the thinking behind it is yes, you can still get cravings - but it's harder when your belly is full of sweet potato, almonds and kale! 

Don't forget protein as well. Not as much as you probably think you'd need.  A tiny bit of meat. Or a cup of chickpeas/beans/lentils/tofu or tempeh, and nuts.

misterhorsey

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2016, 04:09:57 PM »
Oh, and I think a great guiding principle is to just include a vegetable in every meal.

Don't just have toast for breakfast. Cut up a tomato and stick it on top. With maybe some mushroom.

Don't just have a steak and chips for lunch. Have a big salad instead, but with strips of meat or whatever.

Pretty soon including vegies in everything becomes habitual. Meals look weird without it.  You change your shopping habits. A diet incredibly rich in a range of nutrients from vegies becomes your supplement. And go for dark coloured vegies, generally richer in the good stuff:

http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/fresh-ideas/healthy-dinners/why-are-deeply-colored-vegetables-good-for-you.htm


slow hand slow plan

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Re: Vitamin Supplements?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2016, 02:58:57 PM »
Omega 3
Coq10 has been studied more than any nutrient almost.. (Turmeric is up there too)
Then anything specific if needed/deficient

Leafy Greens (Kale , Chard etc) are high in vitamins (caratenoids, vitamin K) and minerals

Sardines!! super high in Omegas

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!