Author Topic: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf  (Read 5767 times)

Nords

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The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« on: December 15, 2018, 03:42:03 PM »
I’d like to read about your experiences with a Nissan Leaf, or any other electric vehicle besides Teslas.

If you’re a Leaf owner, what problems or surprises have you encountered?  If you were selling it (or buying another one) then what questions would you ask?

Our 2006 Prius is starting to rack up the repair bills. *  Our 2005 Prius is still running fine (for now) and we have plenty of time to buy a second car.  With cash.

Our typical drives on Oahu are well within 40 miles, and once or twice a month we might make a 60-mile round trip.  Recharging from our photovoltaic array would save us a few hundred dollars per year on gas, but I'm really attracted to the idea of not having to maintain an internal combustion engine.

I’ve looked at Teslas in the past (Oahu is big on Teslas) but I’m not mature or responsible enough to take care of one.  (I’m also not interested in rolling up to surfing beaches in a Tesla with a roof rack and a longboard on top.)  I’m going to table this option for now and take another look in a few years.

We’ve bought used cars since the 1990s and I’m comfortable with that process.  (We try to avoid dealerships but will use one if we must.)  I’ve read up on Leafs in various forums and I understand the engineering issues.  We have a OBD-II code reader & app for checking a Leaf’s health.  We’ll shop our usual used-car sources out here.

From what I’ve read so far, we’re looking at a model year 2015 or newer.  I’ve also read some concerns about the main (traction) batteries in the 2018 models.

Anything else I'm missing?


* (For you Prius owners:
- The circuit card for our dashboard display (the "combination meter") is dying.  The car can be driven without it but the lack of a speedometer would fail the annual safety inspection.
- A damper in the ventilation system keeps sticking partway, and the stepper motor complains a lot about trying to move it.
- Those two repairs require tearing apart the entire dashboard.  It's straightforward but fraught with brittle plastic parts, and service techs charge $1100 just for the labor. 
- The multi-function display is still all right but it's getting dimmer. 
- We should replace all the tires.
- The brake pads probably have a few years left.  We only drive a few thousand miles per year, and the car only has 105K on it.)
- The car's 12v battery is due for replacement.
- The car's traction (main) battery was replaced four years ago-- cell failure-- and it's doing fine.

sol

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 04:02:26 PM »
We've had our (2012) Leaf for a few years now.  No real problems to report, though.  It just works.

The range definitely drops a bit in the winter when the batteries are colder.  It's not enough of a difference to matter to us, because we don't typically charge it to 100% anyway so we always have the option of a full charge if we anticipate needing more miles.  We get about 55 miles on an 80% charge in the winter, and about 70 miles in the summer, on a six year old battery using the old battery chemistry.  Which is more than enough for us, as I rarely run it down to single digits of listed miles remaining.  edit:  we often drive more miles than that, by driving it in the morning and then charging it for a few hours and then driving it again in the afternoon.

So far, nothing has broken.  I need to rotate the tires, and other than that the only maintenance we've done in 30k miles is replacing the wiper blades once, and sometimes adding air to the tires when we wash it.

It's an easy car to drive.  It's nimble and responsive on the road, and the controls make sense to me.  All of the doodads like bluetooth and heated steering wheel still work just fine.  We charge in our garage every night.  The upholstery is easy to clean.  I love it.

Because they are mechanically simpler cars, I think it's less important to ask about all of those little surprises that sometime plague other vehicles.  No one has monkeyed with the carbs because it doesn't have any.  I can guarantee that it's never blown a head gasket and had to be remachined, because it doesn't have one.  The clutch plates can't have been abused by a teenager, because it doesn't have any.  It's more like buying a cell phone; if it looks good and performs as expected for the first two minutes, I think you're unlikely to find problems under the hood later on.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:52:20 PM by sol »

Telecaster

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 07:21:27 PM »
I bought a used Leaf (2013) in part because of Sol's experience.  It was dirt cheap.  Something like $8400 total out the door, tax, license, etc.   Prices seem to have rebounded since then, at least the last time I looked.   The scoop is that many (most?) new Leafs are leased.  When they come off their leases, the dealer just dump them.   So there seems to be a sweet spot for three year old cars. 

It is a great car.  Very smooth and quiet.   I haven't had any issues at all. 

RelaxedGal

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2018, 01:45:28 PM »
Nords, I agree with you that 2015 and newer is the way to go.  The battery chemistry was improved.

I just replaced my 2012 with a 2019.  I bought the 2012 in February 2015 (certified pre-owned, 36,000 miles) and put 36,000 miles on it.  I'm in New England near Boston, MA and my commute is 35 miles round-trip.  I think charging to 100% all winter (November through March) and discharging to "low battery warning" once or twice/month was tough on the battery.  The car lost one capacity bar/year, she was down to only 8 bars (66% of original capacity) when I traded it in.

I have faith that the newer battery, as well as the longer original range of the 2015, would do good things for you.

On the maintenance side, the manual said to replace the brake fluid annually which seems like a money maker for dealerships.   Like I said, I live in the snowy northeast with salty roads in winter.  at the 2 year mark or so I had the dealer do that fluid replacement.  Everything had rusted into place, and there were grooves in the brake pads/rotors.  Out the door I spent nearly $1,000 for all of the work (there was something in addition to the brakes that I  am forgetting now).  Also: my preferred smaller shop refused to touch the brakes.  Hopefully hybrids and electric cars are common enough in your area that you won't have that problem.

The death knell for my 2012 was a squeaky sound when going over speed bumps.  Loose lower ball joints.  According to a coworker that is common on Nissans?  Anyways, since both of the whole lower control arms need to be replaced the dealer estimated $1040 including an alignment.  My smaller shop quoted $900.

May none of those happen to you, but I wanted to toss those anecdotes out there.  "If you cannot be a good example, at least be a warning to others."

dandarc

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2018, 01:48:16 PM »
There's a 2011 for sale for $4400 near me. But we really don't need a 2nd car the way we're set up right now - would be a pure convenience purchase. Still, very tempting.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 02:12:25 PM »
I really like my Leaf, and would recommend.

Problems to date:
- front tires wear very fast, even when I try not to gun it and always leave in Eco mode which dampens acceleration
- bought mine new, and had the 12v battery go bad right at 2 years (car would randomly not start, but when the 12v was disconnected and then reconnected it would work, so more of a nuisance until I could take it in and they diagnosed the problem)
- this winter and last winter I have a check engine light that comes on; last winter I left it at Nissan for several days and eventually they said the main engineering department reported that there is no real problem connected to the error code it was giving, and they told me just to ignore and eventually it went away, only to reappear this winter; it's annoying because it will make it hard to sell/trade-in anywhere else, not that I plan to in the short term
- battery and range gauges are not real accurate; for the first two years, it would always show 100+ mile range after full charge, but suddenly I now see nothing above 90 miles; seemed to coincide with resets performed at the dealership; yet my battery still shows the full 12 dashes, which the internet tells me means I must still be at 85%+ battery capacity; I obviously knew the battery would degrade, but it's just annoying that it is _always_ overestimating distance and charge

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 10:53:55 PM »
Thanks, everyone, this is good info and a big help.

Our Prius has heard us talking about getting rid of it, so it's been on its best behavior.  The dashboard has worked every time we've turned it on over the last 10 days, and it passed its annual safety inspection yesterday.  At this point we'll probably shop around with a plan to buy in January or February.  Perhaps the 2016 models will also be going off lease by then.

We need 1.05 cars as an empty-nester couple, but it's convenient to have that second car if one of them breaks down.  (It's also nice to have it for the use of houseguests.)  It costs us about $850/year for registration & insurance per vehicle, and that's before burning gas.  It's getting to the point where our second car could be an Uber... but not just yet.

We're leaning toward making our other Prius (from 2005) the beach & chores car and only using a Leaf for other entertainment & errands.  The Leaf would only see about 3000 miles/year under those conditions.  The tropical climate is pretty easy on the battery range, and we only drive over the Ko'olau once or twice a month.

I've read about problems with the brake fluid, and we'll keep an eye on that.  Squeaky ball joints... well... we've been living with those for a couple years.  We're also going to use the LeafSpy app with an OBD-II reader just to make sure there's nothing weird going on in the main (traction) battery.

turketron

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 08:45:27 AM »
I came across this post on JL Collins' blog a few weeks back with some good discussion about Leafs: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2018/11/22/car-talk-an-update-on-steve-and-looking-at-leafs/

Although I expect to get (ideally) a few more years out of my current car (99 accord that I put about 2500 miles/year on) I'm now eyeing a Leaf when it dies. Even with the (comparatively) lower range of the older models, we'd then be able to use the Leaf for probably 90% of our city commuting/errands/etc, and only use our other car (2013 Forester, so still getting decent fuel efficiency) for road trips or times where we both need a car and biking isn't an option.

One other thing I came across worth mentioning- it's worth checking with your local utility company to see if they offer any deals on installation of a 240v outlet + charger.

A coworker just priced a few quotes from electricians and it was going to be upwards of $1200 for installation, plus another $500 to buy the charger itself.  In comparison, our utility company runs a program where they will come out, install the system and maintain it, and include the actual charger, for $20/month (along with the cost of electricity). There's a 5 year commitment -- after that, you are done paying, and they'll sell you the charger for $10.


Telecaster

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 10:37:05 AM »
A coworker just priced a few quotes from electricians and it was going to be upwards of $1200 for installation, plus another $500 to buy the charger itself.  In comparison, our utility company runs a program where they will come out, install the system and maintain it, and include the actual charger, for $20/month (along with the cost of electricity). There's a 5 year commitment -- after that, you are done paying, and they'll sell you the charger for $10.

That's a great deal!  However, you don't strictly need an electrician.   You have to run the wiring (in conduit) from the box to the charger.   That part is pretty DIY.  Then you have to hook the wiring to the box.   That part is DIY if you are handy, but if not an electrician can do it.   

I installed a Level II charger recently. Juicebox, FWIW.  Pretty slick, I like it a lot.   

turketron

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 11:31:16 AM »
That's a great deal!  However, you don't strictly need an electrician.   You have to run the wiring (in conduit) from the box to the charger.   That part is pretty DIY.  Then you have to hook the wiring to the box.   That part is DIY if you are handy, but if not an electrician can do it.   

I installed a Level II charger recently. Juicebox, FWIW.  Pretty slick, I like it a lot.

Right, it probably wouldn't be worth it if you could get the installation done for cheap. In this case, the coworker is decidedly not handy and apparently had some funky stuff going on with their garage and/or electrical system (she didn't go into detail) that made the estimates on the higher side. In this case, it made sense for her.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 03:29:34 PM by turketron »

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2019, 03:14:29 PM »
"Well, that escalated quickly."

Our daughter & son-in-law visited over the holidays.  The 2006 Prius drove fine for a few days but then on 30 December began misbehaving again while they were out & about.

For you Navy vets, it was fun to see two lieutenants carry out the immediate actions for “loss of remote indication” and then figure out their backups.  Of course when they returned to the garage they immediately shut down the engineroom and filed a CASREP for assistance.

So on 31 December we accelerated our search.  On 2 January we bought a 2015 Leaf S (the base model) with 13,298 miles.  It was listed on Facebook Marketplace at $15K, which in our ZIP code is a Blue Book value in the range of $11.3K-$15.6K.  I think we were one of the first people to contact the seller.

CarFax says the Leaf was shipped from Nissan to Oahu’s King Windward Nissan in mid-2014. In August 2014 they leased it to someone who then paid for shipping to Kauai (?!?) and drove it for 7900 miles through July 2018. They returned it to King at the end of the lease.  (Which meant they paid to ship it back from Kauai.)  King detailed it and eventually sold it to the second owner last October.

The only events that CarFax recorded during the lease were for annual registrations and safety checks, along with a Lihue dealer’s “electrical system checks” at 5000 miles. Nissan’s corporate database says there are no recalls or campaigns.

The seller (the second owner) has lived here for a few years with his son. He says that he’s had a change of life plans and is returning to the Mainland. He enjoyed the car and it looks like he took good care of it for two months. He commuted daily and says he recharged mostly L1 (110v). He managed to drive it nearly 5400 miles over 84 days, though, so it went an average of 65 miles/day.

Its battery has all 12 capacity bars, of course, although I couldn’t get the LeafSpy app to work with my OBDII reader for more details about the battery’s health. My iPhone connects with the code reader over Bluetooth for our Prius but not with the Leaf, so LeafSpy never picked up any data.  We’ve ordered a LeafSpy iOS compatible OBDII code reader (a LELink 2) and should have that in a week or two.

The car is pristine and the auxiliaries look good. There’s not even any red dirt under the hood. The 12v battery (factory original) is due for replacement but everything else is squeaky-clean.

After a test drive, we offered to buy it for the seller’s $15K price with a certified check. He had already closed his local bank accounts and said he’d prefer cash. We drove to our credit union and withdrew a stack of $100s.  (We also triggered a Currency Transaction Report, which was fun.)  He offered us his driver’s license for ID (we took a photo) and he signed over the title. We drove him home to the address on the car’s title.  It all seems legit.

Unless he was exploited by the dealer, this looks like a great car.  I've noticed that when I press or release the accelerator I can hear a faint "click" or a light "thunk".  I think it's a drive train shifting on a mechanical spline, or a drive chain on the shaft, or a bearing in either the motor or the axle.  It sounds more normal than symptomatic, and I'm only hearing it because the rest of the car is so quiet.

The Leaf owner's manual seems to assume that we've installed a L2 240v charging system on the garage wall, and it discourages L1 (110v) charging.  I don't know why it would... submarine batteries do better with slow charges and get nasty hot when you do a fast charge.  Maybe it's just the length of time that it takes for the car to charge on L1.

The Leaf has more hauling volume than our Prius-- it has a really deep well in the Leaf's entire back section because Leafs don’t carry spare tires (or jacks or lug wrenches).  I bet we could haul an entire washing machine.  I’m a little skeptical about driving it without a spare, but it has a pressurized can of "flat tire sealant" and a 12v air pump.  3 out of our 4 flat tires in the last decade have happened in our garage, though, so we can cope.

The registration & title transfer was only $10 but when the old registration expires in July then we'll have to pay $340 annually.  That's still $40 cheaper than our Prius.  In Hawaii we also get 2.5 hours of free parking at state or county spaces (but not private lots) and we get to use the HOV lane anytime we want.  We might also get an insurance break, although that might only apply to portions which we don't bother to carry (collision, theft, comprehensive). 

Driving the Leaf is an interesting learning experience.  I've driven the same Oahu roads for nearly 30 years... to the beach, to the grocery store, to Costco.  We've been driving them in a Prius for 10 of those years, and I've optimized my driving for high MPG with gentle acceleration.  I know where to let a Prius coast, where to accelerate, and where to touch the brakes.  It's all become muscle memory.

But with the Leaf in ECO mode (a good thing around here), I'm re-learning those habits.  I can use the dashboard display to feather the accelerator and manually let the Leaf coast, but the Leaf's cruise control maintains speed going downhill as well as uphill.  (No coasting downhill like the Prius.)  The Leaf decelerates (regenerates) more quickly than the Prius, so I have to get closer to intersections or turns before I take my foot off the accelerator to slow down.  (I hardly ever use the brake.)  On the other hand we never expect to really push the Leaf’s battery range (we'd use our other 2005 Prius for that) so I'm not exactly wasting the battery's health.

I really enjoy driving it, but I'm not going to get to do that very often.  It's definitely my spouse’s car.  (When our daughter & son-in-law were visiting, it somehow became our daughter’s car.)  Luckily the Leaf is plenty roomy in the back seat. 

Spouse has informed me that our Leaf is now “the clean car” and will not be subjected to seawater, sand, or surf wax.  I'm apparently never going to be allowed to load a longboard in it, so that cargo question has been rendered moot.  I’ve moved the roof rack to our 2005 Prius, which is definitely qualified to be “the beach beater”.  That car only has about 54K miles and will probably give us a few more years.

After extensive discussions, we gave away our 2006 Prius.  A local military family understands the issues with the dashboard display and the rest of the car's failing parts.  They're only on island for another year so they're happy to take the risks or to fix it on their own.  I gave them every opportunity to change their minds and say "No thanks", but their gearhead friend says there's really no downside for them.  They've already transferred the title & registration. 

I'm still figuring out how many more solar panels we'll need for our photovoltaic array.  We've only charged the Leaf's battery a couple times in the last week.  We'll get a better feel for our driving habits during the next month but I'm guessing that I'll still need at least 400 more watts.

I never expected to buy a used car this quickly.  It’s been our easiest car transaction in nearly 40 years.

sol

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 04:14:19 PM »
Congratulations, Nords.  Welcome to the club.

Just a reminder for all new members, you must now sneer contemptuously at anyone you see still driving a burner.  Dead dinosaur fuel is SO last season.

feelingroovy

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 09:18:15 PM »
Saw this thread too late to help. But we also bought a 2015 Leaf last April, to go with our 2007 Prius.

My biggest complaint is that my spouse also hogs it so I don't get to drive it much. It's fun to drive.

We intended to get a 220 charger when we bought it and our garage already has the outlet, but we've found the 110 has always been sufficient.

I think the biggest convenience that no one ever mentions is never having to stop for gas. So easy to just plug in at home.

I am just hoping the Prius lasts long enough for the newer 200+ range models to come off leases in 3-4 years. Then we can go all EV.

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 11:21:09 PM »
I am just hoping the Prius lasts long enough for the newer 200+ range models to come off leases in 3-4 years. Then we can go all EV.
That's beginning to look like our plan too. 

Tonight I did a 60-mile round trip (465 ft of elevation difference) with the A/C and the stereo blasting, and headlights on the way home.  I started with a 100% charge and the range meter's guesstimate of 90 miles.  I used 32% of the battery capacity on the way down, another 37% of the capacity on the way back up, and rolled into the garage with 25 miles left.  That's the longest drive I take on our 30x40-mile island, so I'm not going to worry about range anxiety until the battery gets a lot older and the range meter drops into the 60s.  Even then I'm pretty sure I can find an EV charging station at my destination.

I'd drive the Leaf up & down H-3 to Kaneohe or Kailua, but about the only time I go to those towns involves a longboard... I'd be forced to use the beach Prius anyway.

I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the Leaf displays my iPod's info on the dashboard in a presbyopian-friendly font.  No more scrabbling for reading glasses to squint at the iPod's 1"-square display.

We're fine with recharging at 110v but I'd still like to understand the engineering issues behind the L1 vs L2 charging system debate.  I'm really tempted to stick a 240v adapter plug on the Leaf's OEM 110v charger and stick it into the 240v receptacle behind our (rarely used) electric dryer.  I'm sure that the aftermarket 240v EVSE charging systems have some convenience feature (charge timers?  time-of-day metering?) which we "can't live without", but I'm still researching that on the MyNissanLeaf forum.

HumanAfterAll

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 11:43:44 PM »
Congrats! I’ve put 60k miles on my 2013, and I love it. Battery is around 90% on LeafSpy, still 12 bars.

I’ve read the clunk is fixed by greasing the hub splines and re-torquing the axle nuts. The strong regen might be the cause.

Arguments against L1 charging beyond time are that the charger consumes 200W parasitic, so you waste some energy when charging for more hours. Also you can’t run the heater or AC from grid power to pre-condition and extend range when plugged in on L1.

sol

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 11:56:09 PM »
I'd still like to understand the engineering issues behind the L1 vs L2 charging system debate.

Please let us know what you find out.  My understanding was the Nissan was recommending the L2 chargers primarily because they make the car more appealing; it charges faster that way.  I agree it should theoretically be worse for the battery to charge faster, though.

Other possible reasons that I've seen mentioned are that 1) the L2 chargers apparently lose less power to overhead, so are more efficient than the L1 type, and 2) corporate was worried homeowners would overload their shitty knob and tube connected 110V outlets and start fires by plugging in a car charger.  That last one kind of makes sense to me, if you believe that L2 chargers are going to be newly installed to code.  Of course they want to minimize any chance of being responsible for some dummy burning his house down by plugging in to an outlet that can't deliver enough juice without overheating.

We charge with a regular old L1 wall outlet at home, and occasionally use L2 chargers when we're out and about.  We've never used an L3 charger on the chademo port, even though they can charge the car in 30 minutes, mostly because they typically cost as much per mile as just buying gasoline.  No thanks.  It turns out the convenience of gasoline-style quick refueling times aren't worth gasoline-style prices to me, even as an option.

Also you can’t run the heater or AC from grid power to pre-condition and extend range when plugged in on L1.

I can.  We plug in to our L1 at home and the preheater absolutely does work while plugged in.  We used to always pre-heat the car on winter mornings using the timer on the center screen, in order to have both a warm car and a full charge when leaving for work.  Mine's a 2012, maybe things are different on different model years.

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 11:56:53 PM »
Congrats! I’ve put 60k miles on my 2013, and I love it. Battery is around 90% on LeafSpy, still 12 bars.

I’ve read the clunk is fixed by greasing the hub splines and re-torquing the axle nuts. The strong regen might be the cause.

Arguments against L1 charging beyond time are that the charger consumes 200W parasitic, so you waste some energy when charging for more hours. Also you can’t run the heater or AC from grid power to pre-condition and extend range when plugged in on L1.
Thanks-- this is all good to know!

I know the definitions of the words in the phrase "can't run the heater or AC from grid power to pre-condition and extend range", but what's the meaning of that phrase?  (I'm ignorant in my curiosity here, not snarky or criticizing.)
 Why would I care about running the heater or AC while I'm recharging the Leaf's battery?  What am I pre-conditioning and why would it extend the range?

HumanAfterAll

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 08:13:56 AM »
If you want to heat or cool the car, it draws energy from the battery, which reduces your range.

If you heat or cool the car while it is plugged in and the battery is presumably full, you can start your trip with a full battery and a car that is the right temperature, so the demand on the battery is less and your range is longer.

Interesting Sol, I have a 2013 S with quick charge, it will run the fan but not heat on L1.

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 08:18:54 AM »
If you heat or cool the car while it is plugged in and the battery is presumably full, you can start your trip with a full battery and a car that is the right temperature, so the demand on the battery is less and your range is longer.
Ah, I get it now.  Thanks. 

I've never turned on the heat in a car on Oahu, and I only roll up the windows (to turn on the AC) when we're going faster than 25 MPH.  I'm sure that using the AC affects the battery's range, but I'll have to pay attention to whether it's more than a mile or two.

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2019, 08:44:16 AM »
Little late to the party but welcome to the club. We too have a 2006 Prius and a 2014 Leaf (bought August 2018). The Prius is great because we go on long road trips quite often. My daughter does competitive gymnastics which requires extensive travelling. Since I no longer work a corporate job entirely too far from our house, the Leaf is great to have as I can transport the kids to all their social activities/events. I even use the Leaf for my construction/rehab side hustle gig. The last person I did some rehab work for was cracking up that I would roll up to his house with my Leaf loaded with construction materials. I was well into 2 years of routine car searching before I stumbled on this beauty that someone wanted to get rid of no matter the cost. $7800 for a 2014 Leaf with nearly 90% battery life left, yes please!!!

@sol, I never knew about that heating "trick" Although our garage stays pretty warm being mostly underground so we never have to preheat the cars, it's good to know.  I am also curious about L2 charging. Although we've never run into an issue of not having charge when we needed it. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:47:12 AM by MasterStache »

SnackDog

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2019, 04:27:10 AM »
Interesting tech but I don't get why they don't sell well and depreciate like mad.  The 2018 re-design addresses some of the issues (like those ungainly haunches) and is a huge improvement, yet 2018 Leaf sales were down 50% from 2014.  Is range the main reason people don't like these cars or is there something else I'm missing?

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2019, 10:19:57 PM »
We have a couple weeks (and a couple hundred miles) of experience now, along with a compatible OBDII reader.

Thanks again, @HumanAfterAll, it turns out that the Leaf’s faint "click" is a problem with lots of Nissan axles.  It’s barely audible, and I'm only hearing it because the rest of the car is so quiet.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=26720
I’ll see if I can find a copy of the NTB 12-055 TSB.  I’m not in any particular hurry (right?) and the car’s almost certainly out of its 3-year/36K warranty, so I could have a dealer take a look at it in 2019 or 2020.

I’ve verified (the hard way) that our Bosch OBDII code reader doesn’t connect to LeafSpy with our iOS devices.  LeafSpy came right up with the LELink2.

On the “Battery Cells” first screen, the cells all seem to be within a mV of each other.  It reported “AHr=54.69”, SOH of 88.06% after 3.5 years, and Hx of 80.21%.  It shows nine DC charges and 620 L1/L2 charges (since August 2014).  SOC on the third “Table” screen is 69.6% (same as the dashboard) and 175 GIDs (62.3%) with 13.6 Kwh remaining.

The code scan was interesting but not scary.  DTCs include “U1000 0008 BCM CAN Comm Circuit” and I found this thread:
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=25335
with this manual reference:
http://www.nicoclub.com/manuals/Leaf/2013%20LEAF/BCS.pdf

There’s also
“B29A0 2408 Charger N/CHG Port Engage Err VC-95”
and
“B29C1 2308 Charger EVSE VC-98”
with these threads:
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=25812&p=526973&hilit=B29A0+VC+95#p526973
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=26179&p=532376&hilit=B29C1+VC+98#p532376

I’m not sure what “2408” or “2308” mean but the issues seem to be possible dirt or poor insulation.  The car’s charging fine on L1 and I haven’t used an EVSE yet.
 
Best of all, LeafSpy helped me shut off the door auto-lock feature and the backup beep. 

Dicey

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2019, 10:44:03 PM »
When we visited our rentals a couple of weeks ago, we noticed the neighbors had a shiny new Leaf. Our neighbor at home has a 2017 Leaf, and it's his second one. Now I learn sol and now Nords have one too. And there are more of you. OMG, I think I'm coming down with a case of Leaf envy!

I know a lot of forumites don't frequent the blog, so in case you missed these, here's some link love.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/the-nissan-leaf-experiment/

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2019, 05:29:58 AM »
Thanks for the link.  Turns out the Leaf doesn't depreciate at all!  MMM got a brand new one in 2016 for $16,000 after discounts and tax rebates, and they are still selling used for $14-16,000 three years later. That is amazing!  One could drive the car nearly for free with zero maintenance, solar electric and zero depreciation.

sol

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2019, 09:54:58 AM »
Now I learn sol and now Nords have one too. And there are more of you. OMG, I think I'm coming down with a case of Leaf envy!

You didn't know I have a leaf?  I wrote a whole post about it, like six months before the MMM blog did.  I like to think my forum write-up was the template for the later blog posts.  I'm an inspiration, of sorts.

Turns out the Leaf doesn't depreciate at all! 

I disagree, I think the old ones depreciate dramatically every time a new version comes out with improved features and range.  I also bought a three year old leaf, but I only paid $7700 for it, not $16k.  It was cheaper because the new versions were already out, and the three year old leafs where like three year old cell phones.  Perfectly serviceable, but clearly eclipsed by the newer models.

I was also able to score a nearly-new car that was 80% depreciated in only 30k miles of driving because the used market was flooded with lease returns, which in turn was related to the new versions being released.  Lease holders with the option to buy decided to return them instead because of the new and improved leafs already on the market, which buried dealers with 3 year old cars they couldn't sell. 

If this trend holds, then today's $14k-$16k leafs will be worth $9k in another year or two, after the new 225 mile version is released (hopefully) in late 2019.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 09:58:44 AM by sol »

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2019, 11:43:31 AM »
2016 Leafs (Leaves?), like the one MMM bought three years ago, sell for $14-16K today, your anecdotal claim notwithstanding. The cheapest one in the entire country today is $13,000 (it was in an accident).  So, if you have a source of them for $7,700 you have a heck of a side gig opportunity to buy and sell them at a huge profit. 

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=untrackedExternal_false_0&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=c25326&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=c25326&zip=94563&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&modelChanged=true&filtersModified=true

sol

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2019, 11:59:01 AM »
2016 Leafs (Leaves?), like the one MMM bought three years ago, sell for $14-16K today, your anecdotal claim notwithstanding.

My anecdotal claim was specifically about buying a 2012 leaf in early 2016, not a 2016 leaf in early 2019.  In 2016, there were definitely a ton of 3 year old cars for sale for less than $8k.

Quote
The cheapest one in the entire country today is $13,000 (it was in an accident).

Not to be too picky here, but one website is not an exhaustive national search.  Plus you're looking at dealer sales, not private party.  Plus you're looking at asking prices, not sale prices.

Here's a 2016 for less than what you said was the "cheapest one in the country", with a clean title, list price at a dealer.  I found it local to me in about 30 seconds.  You can definitely do better by buying privately.  Or even negotiating with the dealers, if that's your thing.

Quote
So, if you have a source of them for $7,700 you have a heck of a side gig opportunity to buy and sell them at a huge profit. 

I don't have a source, I have a car.  I'm sure you're aware that if I were to offer to sell my car to a dealer, they would offer me a trade in value significantly below the price they would list the car for sale at the next day. 

But your'e sort of right, people absolutely do make a living buying and selling used cars.  If you know how to spot a deal, and are good at negotiating, it's not hard to clear $1000 a month buying and selling cars.  We've seen several posts on this forum from people who do this as a side gig, with both cars and motorcycles.  I hear red convertibles can be picked up cheap in November and sold for a premium in May.  Boats and bikes follow a similar pattern.

This is all sideshow, though.  I think the leaf is a great little car.  I'm happy with mine.  I hope Nords learns to love his, too.

SnackDog

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2019, 04:37:19 PM »

My anecdotal claim was specifically about buying a 2012 leaf in early 2016, not a 2016 leaf in early 2019.  In 2016, there were definitely a ton of 3 year old cars for sale for less than $8k.

Since my claim was about current prices, I naturally misunderstood your "disagreement" with it based on your many years old anecdote.

Quote
Not to be too picky here, but one website is not an exhaustive national search.  Plus you're looking at dealer sales, not private party.  Plus you're looking at asking prices, not sale prices.

Here's a 2016 for less than what you said was the "cheapest one in the country", with a clean title, list price at a dealer.  I found it local to me in about 30 seconds.  You can definitely do better by buying privately.  Or even negotiating with the dealers, if that's your thing.

I never claimed it was exhaustive, but if the best you can do is $49 cheaper, I don't consider that material so I guess it turned out to be exhaustive after all.  With the advent of internet sales, dealer negotiations are no longer a thing. They have to advertise and sell at the lowest possible price just to get you in the door.  It is a huge shift in new and used car sales that not everyone has realized.  I was chased out a car dealership not long ago for arguing to purchase a used vehicle at the advertised price.

Quote
I don't have a source, I have a car. 

A car which you claim to have bought at half market price and suggest is a representative of current depreciation curves.  Only no such current examples exist, only a $12,950 car.

Quote
I'm sure you're aware that if I were to offer to sell my car to a dealer, they would offer me a trade in value significantly below the price they would list the car for sale at the next day.
 
I didn't suggest that and I'm not aware of any business model buying used cars and selling them to dealers. Sell them directly to buyers.  $5-6000/per car profit.

Quote
But your'e sort of right, people absolutely do make a living buying and selling used cars.  If you know how to spot a deal, and are good at negotiating, it's not hard to clear $1000 a month buying and selling cars.  We've seen several posts on this forum from people who do this as a side gig, with both cars and motorcycles.  I hear red convertibles can be picked up cheap in November and sold for a premium in May.  Boats and bikes follow a similar pattern.
 

If you can buy them for $7700 and sell for $12,950 then I suggest you buy and sell 10 every month.  After 1 or two months you can afford a Tesla.

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2019, 07:13:57 PM »
He can certainly afford one now, but that isn't the point, is It?

Sol, I haven't chased that link down yet, but it's ringing a bell. I thought it was a terrific opportunity. I remember the situation, but not the specific contributors. We were car shopping at the time, but I couldn't convince DH to go in that direction. Good for you. I'm glad the Leaf worked out so well for you.

Nords

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2019, 07:35:58 PM »
He can certainly afford one now, but that isn't the point, is It?
"Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
"

We've had the Tesla talk in our house (even the "His & Hers Teslas" talk).  Neither of us feels responsible enough (let alone mature enough) to handle one.  I'm sure they look pretty sporty with roof racks or bicycle racks, but I just don't see myself rolling up in one to the parking lot of my favorite surf break.

Heck, there are features in this Leaf that still feel over the top.  Bluetooth?!?  Maybe it's better to not have to answer a phone call in the first place.  Three XM channels?  I've been happy with the same 500 classic-rock tracks on my iPod for nearly a decade.  I don't even listen to the radio for rush-hour traffic... because I try not to go out during rush-hour traffic.

However I have this nagging old-skool feeling that Nissan might've gone a little too far in the frugal direction by omitting a spare tire from the Leaf.  I'm sure that younger drivers might feel that spare tires are so second-millennium, especially with today's rugged & durable construction and high-tech lightweight sealant repairs.  It's been a very long time (decades?) since I've had a blowout on the road, and it was almost certainly a bicycle tire.  OTOH I've had two flats in the garage (slow leaks) in the last five years, and a spare tire is a lot more convenient for a quick change & go.

Dicey

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 01:25:27 AM »
He can certainly afford one now, but that isn't the point, is It?
"Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
"

We've had the Tesla talk in our house (even the "His & Hers Teslas" talk).  Neither of us feels responsible enough (let alone mature enough) to handle one.  I'm sure they look pretty sporty with roof racks or bicycle racks, but I just don't see myself rolling up in one to the parking lot of my favorite surf break.

Heck, there are features in this Leaf that still feel over the top.  Bluetooth?!?  Maybe it's better to not have to answer a phone call in the first place.  Three XM channels?  I've been happy with the same 500 classic-rock tracks on my iPod for nearly a decade.  I don't even listen to the radio for rush-hour traffic... because I try not to go out during rush-hour traffic.

However I have this nagging old-skool feeling that Nissan might've gone a little too far in the frugal direction by omitting a spare tire from the Leaf.  I'm sure that younger drivers might feel that spare tires are so second-millennium, especially with today's rugged & durable construction and high-tech lightweight sealant repairs.  It's been a very long time (decades?) since I've had a blowout on the road, and it was almost certainly a bicycle tire.  OTOH I've had two flats in the garage (slow leaks) in the last five years, and a spare tire is a lot more convenient for a quick change & go.
1. Would it be crazy to source an extra wheel and tire and keep it in your garage? I'm willing to bet you already have a compressor.

2. Love the Janis quote.

3. My old car was a minivan. It was my company car, which I bought when they scrapped the program and kept when I hit FIRE. DH did the maintenance on it and eventually determined it was time to go. I didn't want to give it up, so I petulantly requested a Tesla. He agreed. But I have no interest in driving that much car. Nor do I wish to drive a vehicle that someone else might covet. Further, our rentals are 400 miles away and we wanted mine to be the comfortable highway cruiser. The Tesla's range wasn't quite far enough, nor was the Leaf's. We bought a two year old Something Else. I like that it hits that sweer spot of being both comfortable enough and nondescript enough to suit me. Under the radar is my happy place.

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Re: The leisurely search for a (used) Nissan Leaf
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 11:39:23 AM »
However I have this nagging old-skool feeling that Nissan might've gone a little too far in the frugal direction by omitting a spare tire from the Leaf.  I'm sure that younger drivers might feel that spare tires are so second-millennium, especially with today's rugged & durable construction and high-tech lightweight sealant repairs.  It's been a very long time (decades?) since I've had a blowout on the road, and it was almost certainly a bicycle tire.  OTOH I've had two flats in the garage (slow leaks) in the last five years, and a spare tire is a lot more convenient for a quick change & go.

Many people agree with you,
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14737&p=332781

I don't see the tire specs on there, I was just looking them up the other day.  I think it was a 2006 Altima spare, but you'll have to dig around a bit.

For my part, I figure one of the the summer tires in my basement can do in a pinch.  If I'm on the road I can call AAA for a tow if the fix-a-flat doesn't do the trick.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!