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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Reader Recommendations => Topic started by: mrpercentage on September 06, 2015, 06:33:11 PM

Title: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 06, 2015, 06:33:11 PM
I won't go to church anymore but it comes to my living room. Love watching Joel. Don't care if it makes me a dork. Love Joel. Highly recommended
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: forummm on September 07, 2015, 06:35:11 AM
Seems like he belongs in this thread:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/'prosperity-gospel'/
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Gumbo1978 on September 08, 2015, 07:57:44 AM
Osteen's net worth is $40 million and he and his wife share a 17k square foot house.  He absolutely preaches the prosperity gospel which completely contradicts the actual gospel.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 08, 2015, 06:09:23 PM
Never once had him ask me for money or tell me to charge a seed on a credit card. Joel is bigger than that. I have read the bible cover to cover 5 times. He preaches encouragement and redemption, forgiveness not condemnation, self improvement not judgement of others, and faith not self pity. I think Joel is pretty close to the mark. That said, nobody is perfect
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on September 08, 2015, 07:48:21 PM
I think Joel Osteen is clearly a fraud who exploits people of faith.  Other Christians generally think he's a heretic, because the focus of his religion is always himself (and that yours should be you) rather than about God.

Anybody who amasses a net worth north of $50 billion (and counting) by claiming to preach Jesus's message is so far removed from the Bible that there is no redemption available to them.  He's a camel trying to pass through the eye of a needle.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 08, 2015, 08:21:11 PM
I would make that claim against 99% on TV Sol but not Joel. He is the only reason I hear any message at all. Tired of churches who obviously follow their elders beliefs because they write the biggest checks. Most churches sell out or excel at judging others and love to point out how their interpretation of interpreted documents from thousands of years ago is absolutely correct. I also like the Pope. I'm probably a heretic but the only stones I will cast are at those who threw first.

Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on September 08, 2015, 08:41:40 PM
Evangelists. Blech. They all make my skin crawl.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sirdoug007 on September 08, 2015, 09:20:28 PM
Is it still a church if Jesus is never mentioned?  Osteen preaches a church of Joel Osteen more than a church of Christ.


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Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 09, 2015, 09:09:00 AM
Okay. You don't have to watch him but the thing that is clear from every comment is that none of you have. Except Miles, he has a good excuse. I feel the same way about 99% of the churches Miles
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 09, 2015, 09:15:49 AM
I think Joel Osteen is clearly a fraud who exploits people of faith.   
Anybody who amasses a net worth north of $50 billion (and counting) by claiming to preach Jesus's message is so far removed from the Bible that there is no redemption available to them.  He's a camel trying to pass through the eye of a needle.

exactly this.  so much for a vow of poverty, but they probably don't do that in his "religion".  The only way I would take him seriously is if he gave all that he has to various charities and lived a modest life the way Jesus teaches. Otherwise, good luck with that needle, Joel
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 09, 2015, 09:19:02 AM
oh and I HAVE watched him, I would not comment in that way without experiencing him for myself. If you can explain why having extreme wealth is ok while espousing the teachings of Christ, I would love to hear that
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: HipGnosis on September 09, 2015, 11:44:46 AM
oh and I HAVE watched him, I would not comment in that way without experiencing him for myself. If you can explain why having extreme wealth is ok while espousing the teachings of Christ, I would love to hear that
Have you ever seen pictures of the Apostolic Palace where the Pope lives and says mass?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on September 09, 2015, 11:48:36 AM
oh and I HAVE watched him, I would not comment in that way without experiencing him for myself. If you can explain why having extreme wealth is ok while espousing the teachings of Christ, I would love to hear that
Have you ever seen pictures of the Apostolic Palace where the Pope lives and says mass?

Technically, the Pope owns almost nothing.  All that wealth belongs to the church he temporarily leads.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: MandalayVA on September 09, 2015, 12:17:27 PM

Have you ever seen pictures of the Apostolic Palace where the Pope lives and says mass?
[/quote]

The current pope doesn't live in the Apostolic Palace, but in a two-room apartment.  The papal car is a Ford Focus.  He's actually kind of ... mustachian.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sirdoug007 on September 09, 2015, 12:23:12 PM
Okay. You don't have to watch him but the thing that is clear from every comment is that none of you have. Except Miles, he has a good excuse. I feel the same way about 99% of the churches Miles

Do you dispute that he almost never mentions Jesus much less the crucifixion and resurrection?

Here is one datapoint: http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/07/18/joel-osteen-likes-god-he-just-doesnt-like-jesus-a-twitter-survey-of-joelosteen/

"Just for kicks I did a quick survey of all Joel Osteen tweets in the last year. I can’t go further back, so we’ll stick with going back to July 8, 2013, which is a little more than a year ago. Out of Joel Osteens 806 tweets, not including any of his replies to other people, he mentions “God” 334 time.

Want to guess how many times he mentioned “Jesus”?

Once.

One time.

I figured that number seemed a little, so I exchanged the word “Jesus” for “Christ”? And know how many times Christ was mentioned?

Twice.

Two times."
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Cougar on September 09, 2015, 01:08:32 PM
I won't go to church anymore but it comes to my living room. Love watching Joel. Don't care if it makes me a dork. Love Joel. Highly recommended


the possters are right here that joel is a prosperity preacher. its all going to be good, things are going to be better tomorrow, etc.

not that there is anything wrong with that, but thats not all the bible is about. there's real suffering and sacrafice for many who swayed even a little from the path.

joel's okay but could not hold a candle to his father, john osteen; imo; a real traditional preacher; but then i like john hagee; so i go for traditionalists.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 09, 2015, 01:21:05 PM
beat me to it! Are you really comparing Osteen to the Pope???  this is the first pope that I find trying to make any headway, I don't agree with him 100% and that's ok, he has done good work so far.  The Pope has made tons of negative references regarding wealth, here's one article:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/

did same search on Osteen, this came up second:

http://www.wnd.com/2014/12/enquirer-joel-osteen-caught-in-financial-scandal/

why he won't apologize for his wealth:  Osteen also told Morgan that he doesn't feel "guilty" about his personal fortune, noting his belief that it signifies "God's blessings on my life. And for me to apologize for God's – how God has blessed you, it's almost an insult to our God".

What? You are blessed by God if you are enormously wealthy? A Christian leader saying what he says? That is disgusting and not at all Christ-like. How do you think Jesus would live among us today? Would he live in a 10 million dollar home with a net worth of 40 million?  And say he must be blessed by God to have all that and to apologize for it would be an insult to God?  My Jesus sure as shit would NOT be doing that, he would put that money to good use to help others and he probably would live in some inner city tear-down house. How can Osteen not see that God does not bless people with wealth, humans accumulate that all on their own. How can he have so much, yet share so little?

 "Osteen says he gives millions of dollars away each year to charity, he just doesn't make it public. And he visits and prays regularly for patients of a nearby Houston medical center."  I find it suspicious that a man so public about his wealth is virtually silent about how much and to whom he gives. And I don't think he does not disclose this information because he is humble and wishes to give anonymously.  He refused to answer Give.org's questions so that his "charity" could be listed as one that meets Give.org's standards.  Give.org gathers charity info and let's the public know details about an organization to make sure they are donating to a true charity. Why, if your Osteen and could get many of your followers to donate large amounts to a charity, would you not disclose info so it can be verified it is on the up and up? Osteen is not on their list, hmmm, sounds a little fishy.

The second part of his charity work is visiting and praying for one Houston Hospital. He's freaking Joel Osteen, he wants to be recognized for his goodness yet refuses any disclosure on his charity and the other charitable work he does is what any leader of a Christian Church would do, visit the sick in hospitals.  He goes to and prays for ONE. My priest visits 4 hospitals and visits people at home, I can call him in the middle of the night for a dying patient and he will come and give Sacrament of the Sick immediately.  My priest is trying to run two churches in two different towns, he is old and tired but if he is needed, he comes. Osteen visits one hospital. He can barely do any less than that.  He should be embarrassed just by this, but never mind, he's busy practicing fitting through the eye of that needle carrying as much money as possible..... 

I don't know about you, but I am 100% certain that Jesus would not resemble Osteen.  And neither does the Pope. Amen.


Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 09, 2015, 01:24:28 PM
 
[/quote]

Do you dispute that he almost never mentions Jesus much less the crucifixion and resurrection?

Here is one datapoint: http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/07/18/joel-osteen-likes-god-he-just-doesnt-like-jesus-a-twitter-survey-of-joelosteen/

"Just for kicks I did a quick survey of all Joel Osteen tweets in the last year. I can’t go further back, so we’ll stick with going back to July 8, 2013, which is a little more than a year ago. Out of Joel Osteens 806 tweets, not including any of his replies to other people, he mentions “God” 334 time.

Want to guess how many times he mentioned “Jesus”?

Once.

One time.

I figured that number seemed a little, so I exchanged the word “Jesus” for “Christ”? And know how many times Christ was mentioned?

Twice.

Two times."
[/quote]

I wish I had seen this before writing my novella of a post. This sums it all up
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 09, 2015, 05:37:04 PM
Wow  lol.

First I never said Joel was Jesus or the Pope.

Second I don't know how any mustachian could knock a guy for amassing wealth. If you had millions you might not live the the same as a hundred thousandnaire

I think there is a huge difference between Joel and the likes of the entire Trinty Broadcasting Channel.

Joel writes books and stuff. It's not like all of his money is from passing a bag around or continually telling people to tithe. I Have never heard of read him telling people to give him money, so I fail to see any victims here. I think a positive view point is much better than the fire and brimstone judge thy neighbor and your gay cousin is going to hell stuff. I will never step into a church for those reasons. Might go to a Catholic Church. They know what not to say for the most part.
Never read the chapter that says what must be discussed in church or the manner in which it should be. I do see Joel mention Christ every show. But he is not for everyone I guess
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: forummm on September 09, 2015, 06:58:59 PM
but then i like john hagee; so i go for traditionalists.

This John Hagee?
https://carm.org/john-hagee-denies-jesus-claimed-to-be-the-messiah
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/04/23/22152/hagee-katrina-mccain/
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/john-hagee-winds-debunking-his-own-blood-moons-theory
http://www.blog.joelx.com/pastor-john-hagee-cornerstone-church-ministry-heresy-divorce-dirty-deeds/910/
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/51141-john-hagee-the-antichrist-is-here
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: pbkmaine on September 09, 2015, 08:07:45 PM
I don't know anything about Joel Osteen or John Hagee, but I did spend two years studying the Bible intensively. It's true that Jesus never said he was God.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 09, 2015, 08:14:15 PM
I might have opened a can here. Hopefully no one is really offended.

My intention was just that if you don't like going to church and like to feel good Sunday morning then Joel Osteen is a good option. Still highly recommended.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: pbkmaine on September 09, 2015, 08:15:31 PM
Oh, don't worry about it. We have lots of opinions here and love expressing them.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Gumbo1978 on September 10, 2015, 06:29:15 AM
I might have opened a can here. Hopefully no one is really offended.

My intention was just that if you don't like going to church and like to feel good Sunday morning then Joel Osteen is a good option. Still highly recommended.

No worries.  I agree with your 2nd point, I just wouldn't consider his teachings biblical.  Jesus would have never approved of one of his disciples/teachers living in a $10.5 million dollar mansion with all the poverty/suffering in the world.  Doesn't sound like Joel gets a lot of his sermons from Jesus's teachings (how could he?) so this sounds like more of a feel good Sunday get together.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 10, 2015, 08:56:16 AM
I don't think God requires people to be poor. The poor you will have always. I think he just doesn't want someone using their fortune as leverage in a nefarious manner against the less fortunate.

If you want to examine beliefs do you believe ultimate authority comes from appolostolic succession being taught and passed down in direct succession from Peter to the current Pope, or do you believe in the Lutheran declaration of solo scriptum?

We could go further and decide if the bible the Catholic Church handed the Protestants was an accurate representation before Protestants removed several books and after Constantine edited what he wanted to. Is that book accurate and meaningful in the English language 2000 years in the future?

Exactly where does the Holy Spirit come in and by what he to be restrained in proclaiming his message. Or hers. Was Jesus a glutton for accepting the perfume that Judas thought should have fed the poor. Was it wrong for Jesus to have his feet washed and dried with the hair of a beautiful female?

Do Muslims have claim that they come from the same God through Haggar before Sarah chased her away? You must have more knowledge than I because Joel passes my test. I like him a lot
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on September 10, 2015, 10:31:09 AM
Joel passes my test. I like him a lot

I don't dispute that he is charismatic and entertaining and likable.  He's just also a fraud.

That's okay, though.  Houdini was a fraud too, yet people flocked to him despite knowing it.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 10, 2015, 12:20:31 PM
 
[/quote]

I don't dispute that he is charismatic and entertaining and likable.  He's just also a fraud.

That's okay, though.  Houdini was a fraud too, yet people flocked to him despite knowing it.
[/quote]

Joseph Smith, too, and broadly, he was a magician first. If you have charisma and direct it towards religion, great things can happen (to you- wealth beyond compare) and to the people who attend your services.  I'm just saying perhaps it's a good idea to scratch below the surface to make sure the person you follow is what you believe him to be
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sirdoug007 on September 11, 2015, 12:12:21 PM
My intention was just that if you don't like going to church and like to feel good Sunday morning then Joel Osteen is a good option. Still highly recommended.

If you just want to feel good on a Sunday morning I would recommend the Sunday morning Gospel set from New Orleans radio station WWOZ.  All their sets are done by volunteer DJs who live in New Orleans and they are amazing!

I think it is 8-10am central.  Great stuff!  You can live stream them from their website anywhere in the world  wwoz.org (http://wwoz.org)  (or on http://tunein.com/radio/WWOZ-907-s23833/ (http://tunein.com/radio/WWOZ-907-s23833/))
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: forummm on September 11, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
My intention was just that if you don't like going to church and like to feel good Sunday morning then Joel Osteen is a good option. Still highly recommended.

If you just want to feel good on a Sunday morning I would recommend the Sunday morning Gospel set from New Orleans radio station WWOZ.  All their sets are done by volunteer DJs who live in New Orleans and they are amazing!

I think it is 8-10am central.  Great stuff!  You can live stream them from their website anywhere in the world  wwoz.org (http://wwoz.org)  (or on http://tunein.com/radio/WWOZ-907-s23833/ (http://tunein.com/radio/WWOZ-907-s23833/))

When I like to feel good on a Sunday morning I avoid anything religious :)
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 11, 2015, 10:31:58 PM

[/quote]

When I like to feel good on a Sunday morning I avoid anything religious :)
[/quote]

+1
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: kite on September 14, 2015, 07:09:42 AM
For the OP, it's wonderful for someone homebound to get their religious fix on TV, and there's no shortage of options.  But there is lots to be said for communion, and the coming together with others on the journey. (People could do yoga alone, too, but get plenty of benefit from doing it in a group and/or under the eye of a teacher.)  We specifically chose to buy a home where we could walk to our church.  In older communities, people built churches close to where they live so they could do exactly that, so it's not as if we had an especially original idea.   Our church has piano & trumpet player at the sunrise service and I'm amazed every single week by it.  I don't have words to even express how awesome it is, but for me it's lightyears better to catch Beethoven's Ode to Joy, performed live in a venue specifically designed for acoustics than to spend Sunday sleeping in or get it via the TV.

Within a congregation, there is (in my opinion) a need for personal interaction between congregants and the one whose job it is to minister to their needs.  My beef with any TV preacher or head of a mega church is that he/she doesn't know you, and you are entitled to, and better served by, a minister, deacon, rabbi or priest who does.


Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: kendallf on September 14, 2015, 08:21:28 AM
For the OP, it's wonderful for someone homebound to get their religious fix on TV, and there's no shortage of options.  But there is lots to be said for communion, and the coming together with others on the journey. (People could do yoga alone, too, but get plenty of benefit from doing it in a group and/or under the eye of a teacher.)  We specifically chose to buy a home where we could walk to our church.  In older communities, people built churches close to where they live so they could do exactly that, so it's not as if we had an especially original idea.   Our church has piano & trumpet player at the sunrise service and I'm amazed every single week by it.  I don't have words to even express how awesome it is, but for me it's lightyears better to catch Beethoven's Ode to Joy, performed live in a venue specifically designed for acoustics than to spend Sunday sleeping in or get it via the TV.

Within a congregation, there is (in my opinion) a need for personal interaction between congregants and the one whose job it is to minister to their needs.  My beef with any TV preacher or head of a mega church is that he/she doesn't know you, and you are entitled to, and better served by, a minister, deacon, rabbi or priest who does.

Great post.  I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church, but I am not a believer.  The only thing I miss about churches is the social interaction and sense of community that the better ones can foster.  I would love a secular alternative that would do these things.  Various charity, sports, and hobby groups fill part of this niche, but not completely.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: LiseE on September 14, 2015, 10:04:37 AM
I listen to Joel on Sirius radio on the drive to and from work.  I also attend my protestant church regularly and am active in our church family.  I listen to Joel as a positive thinker with a Christian foundation.  When I get to work I have a positive attitude and feel good about life and work.  Nothing wrong with that.

I also don't think he shouldn't have to apologize for his wealth/success which largely comes from his books.  He hasn't taken an oath of poverty has he?  Should I have to apologize for living above the poverty line?  Have I been fortunate and blessed?  Damn right and I'm grateful for it everyday.

Also, while he may not mention Jesus as often as God, aren't they one and the same? Trinity?

Those who think he's a fraud have listened to him.  Non believers I've spoken to also think Billy Graham is a fraud (i.e. any evangelist on TV = slimy fraud) when clearly this is not the case.

As a Christian we have eyes and ears of discernment .. we actually have a heightened awareness for those who preach falsely.  Joel is the real deal.  A little heavy on the prosperity message but it's a positive message and listeners should take it as such.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: kite on September 14, 2015, 07:18:16 PM
For the OP, it's wonderful for someone homebound to get their religious fix on TV, and there's no shortage of options.  But there is lots to be said for communion, and the coming together with others on the journey. (People could do yoga alone, too, but get plenty of benefit from doing it in a group and/or under the eye of a teacher.)  We specifically chose to buy a home where we could walk to our church.  In older communities, people built churches close to where they live so they could do exactly that, so it's not as if we had an especially original idea.   Our church has piano & trumpet player at the sunrise service and I'm amazed every single week by it.  I don't have words to even express how awesome it is, but for me it's lightyears better to catch Beethoven's Ode to Joy, performed live in a venue specifically designed for acoustics than to spend Sunday sleeping in or get it via the TV.

Within a congregation, there is (in my opinion) a need for personal interaction between congregants and the one whose job it is to minister to their needs.  My beef with any TV preacher or head of a mega church is that he/she doesn't know you, and you are entitled to, and better served by, a minister, deacon, rabbi or priest who does.

Great post.  I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church, but I am not a believer.  The only thing I miss about churches is the social interaction and sense of community that the better ones can foster.  I would love a secular alternative that would do these things.  Various charity, sports, and hobby groups fill part of this niche, but not completely.

You might like this....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97320958

I think there is more to music and singing together than our human minds have yet to grasp.  It's a constant across cultures  (religious across and secular) across socio-economic groups and ages. 

Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Rosy on September 14, 2015, 10:05:54 PM
Quote
I might have opened a can here. Hopefully no one is really offended.

My intention was just that if you don't like going to church and like to feel good Sunday morning then Joel Osteen is a good option. Still highly recommended.

He's enjoyable to listen to and I like his upbeat positive style. I find him inspiring - probably the last vestige of my extreme roman catholic upbringing:) Go figure.

I agree with the OP he makes me feel good too:)
He's charismatic and reminds me of the young priest who was supposed to teach us religion in school and danced the twist on the table for fun.

I don't take the bible literally and I had the nerve to visit the local townhall to officially declare myself a non-believer - in order to be freed from paying 10% of my salary to the roman catholic church. In case you are wondering, I lived in Germany, which has no separation of church and state - so if you say you are Christian you will find 10% deducted from your paycheck. For all my bravery that day, I thought God might strike me dead as I left the building:)
I was 22 and had just decided that misogyny has its roots in religion established by men. (As good a theory as any:) So why should I support a bunch of women haters who don't even want to acknowledge my right over my own body or "allow" a woman to use birth control. Screw you Mr. Pope the times they are a changing.

Living in a small, extremely religious (yup, we even had a real live witches tower where they once interrogated witches) I had heard one too many times that it was all Eve's fault - the original eternal sin. People seriously believed that shit - all women are evil. It may have been the day I embraced the glory of being a woman.
Took me years to shed most of that extreme roman catholic mindset.

As far as the witches tower, the last witch trial was about 100 years ago, my grandma told me all about it. Very interesting:) A few years ago I followed up on that history. It so happened that 300 years ago a regional catholic bishop burnt so many women as witches that women became scarce. Unbelievable, yet true.
It was a man from my hometown who led the rebellion together with other men who feared for their wives and finally brought a halt to this insanity.
   
Back on topic: Why the hell would Joel have to be poor to be a good Christian or a good preacher? That's utter nonsense. To me he is just another example of "if you're good at something you make a lot of money". No, I wouldn't give money to his church and I don't remember him ever asking for any. I choose my own charities.

He's built an empire - I think of him as a successful entrepreneur who just happens to deal in positive religion versus guilt or fire and brimstone.
There is none of that bigoted, hateful crap you find elsewhere. There is no glorification of being poor or holier than thou thinking.

His message is hopeful and joyful and helpful to many. I don't know what constitutes a fraud here - he delivers a message, does it well and collects good money in the process. To me he is a breath of fresh air and I couldn't care less how often he mentions Jesus. There is no law that says he has to live or act like an old time man of the cloth. There were some that were wonderful human beings who did a lot of good, but most of them that I came across were sanctimonious, righteous a holes that made me want to pummel them senseless.

So all you Joel haters out there, back off my boy:) I enjoy him every so often on late night TV, but as far as religion goes, that is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: kendallf on September 15, 2015, 08:02:23 AM
Great post.  I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church, but I am not a believer.  The only thing I miss about churches is the social interaction and sense of community that the better ones can foster.  I would love a secular alternative that would do these things.  Various charity, sports, and hobby groups fill part of this niche, but not completely.

You might like this....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97320958

I think there is more to music and singing together than our human minds have yet to grasp.  It's a constant across cultures  (religious across and secular) across socio-economic groups and ages.

I do like that; I grew up singing in choir and playing in the band.  Live performance, good or bad, gives us a way to relate to each other.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: fiveoh on September 15, 2015, 09:46:13 AM
100% agree with you OP.  I like watching him on Sunday mornings when I can.  When my kids are older I plan on seeing him in person sometime.  God blessed Solomon and lots of other kings with riches and that didn't make them "frauds".
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on September 15, 2015, 09:55:20 AM
So who blessed all of the frauds and douches with riches?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: gt7152b on September 15, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Bob W on September 15, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
Okay. You don't have to watch him but the thing that is clear from every comment is that none of you have. Except Miles, he has a good excuse. I feel the same way about 99% of the churches Miles

Do you dispute that he almost never mentions Jesus much less the crucifixion and resurrection?

Here is one datapoint: http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/07/18/joel-osteen-likes-god-he-just-doesnt-like-jesus-a-twitter-survey-of-joelosteen/

"Just for kicks I did a quick survey of all Joel Osteen tweets in the last year. I can’t go further back, so we’ll stick with going back to July 8, 2013, which is a little more than a year ago. Out of Joel Osteens 806 tweets, not including any of his replies to other people, he mentions “God” 334 time.

Want to guess how many times he mentioned “Jesus”?

Once.

One time.

I figured that number seemed a little, so I exchanged the word “Jesus” for “Christ”? And know how many times Christ was mentioned?

Twice.

Two times."

Works for me --- I was raised Catholic though so there was very little mention of the bible or Jesus.   Joel is obviously the Donald Trump of evangelicals.   (use broad strokes and let people fill in the blanks)  Seems like a classic winning strategy.   My mom loved him and I gotta admit that when I have watched him I liked him too.   
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: happyfeet on September 15, 2015, 04:08:05 PM
Joel Olsteen Justs creeps me out.

  If I want to listen to an Evangelist it would be Ann Graham Lotz or her dad, Billy.

Joel=Creepy the hair the smile the attitude yuck

Typing on this iPad mini excuse typos
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on September 16, 2015, 04:46:12 AM
Joel's a smoker. Stuck behind his convertible once in Houston, had to switch to internal air. Take from that what you will.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on September 16, 2015, 05:56:51 AM
I would bitch slap this guy if I ever saw him in person.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Bob W on September 16, 2015, 12:22:05 PM
Joel's a smoker. Stuck behind his convertible once in Houston, had to switch to internal air. Take from that what you will.

According to Joel he doesn't smoke ---"Osteen also told Morgan he does not drink or smoke, never dated a woman other than his wife, and that he votes regularly."

Seems odd if he did.  Even odder if he did in public in a convertible.  Of course I would respect him much more if he did smoke and drink and chase women.  His paradise on earth concept is kinda lame without tobacco,  booze and babes. 

One thing I never get is why people that make 5 million a year drive their own car.  That seems very weird.   You know for under 100K you can have a driver 24/7.   I realize that in his case he may want to appear common but for many celebrities it is always weird that they are caught driving drunk or even driving at all.  Don't they know they can get cabs?

I really think Joel should consider Uber. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: forummm on September 16, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
One thing I never get is why people that make 5 million a year drive their own car.  That seems very weird.   You know for under 100K you can have a driver 24/7.   
Americans feel like it's a constitutional right to drive and a lot of them like it. I guess if your driving experience isn't like being stuck in traffic for an hour twice a day (like my commute) you like it more.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 18, 2015, 07:48:14 PM
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?

My guess is that when you rent a stadium so 50,000 people can come see you its not free. Just guessing.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: gt7152b on September 23, 2015, 07:50:39 AM
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?

My guess is that when you rent a stadium so 50,000 people can come see you its not free. Just guessing.

Good guess. I'm guessing it doesn't cost $1.5M.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 23, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
OMG, people pay $30 to attend a religious event by Osteen?  And none of his followers see the problem with that and his fortunes?  You really can't call this religion, can you? He may be an uplifting, inspiring speaker but he is the opposite of Jesus, no matter how you spin that he can't help the wealth he accumulated and all that BS.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Johnez on September 24, 2015, 10:09:52 PM
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?

My guess is that when you rent a stadium so 50,000 people can come see you its not free. Just guessing.

Good guess. I'm guessing it doesn't cost $1.5M.

Wonder if it costs any rock band, who'd charge twice to ten times that much, any more to rent that stadium.

Regarding Joel Osteen, there are far worse out there, I can name quite a few-Benny Hinn being way up there.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 25, 2015, 04:28:51 AM

[/quote]

Wonder if it costs any rock band, who'd charge twice to ten times that much, any more to rent that stadium.

Regarding Joel Osteen, there are far worse out there, I can name quite a few-Benny Hinn being way up there.
[/quote]

So we compare a "religious" event by Osteen to a rock concert.  That's actually quite fitting.  Cult of personality.

Just because there are worse people than you, does not make you any better, i.e.: Pol Pot, "at least I'm not Hitler!" ok, got it
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on September 25, 2015, 07:53:20 AM
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on September 25, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.

how does he do this?  he must have the church listed as non-profit? so earnings are in his name?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on September 25, 2015, 09:13:54 AM
From a tax efficiency stand point it is tough to beat being a religious charlatan.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on September 26, 2015, 01:47:23 AM
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.
Lakewood is not in San Fransico (he was just there) and the other places he visits and sells out. Stadiums these days it may have been 100,000. $30 is cheaper than 10%. TV is free.

So far I have heard a lot of complaints about hair and money. Meanwhile, I look forward to watching him this Sunday for free. I would pay $30 to see him once though and let the reality of that massive of a crowd coming to hear his message sink in. I don't think the atmosphere comes through as clearly as he does.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: clarkfan1979 on September 26, 2015, 02:48:05 AM
I will occasionally watch Joel, but never give money. In-laws love him.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: the_fella on October 10, 2015, 12:15:11 PM
I just saved a bunch of money on seeding by switching to atheism!
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 11, 2015, 12:04:44 AM
From a tax efficiency stand point it is tough to beat being a religious charlatan.

+1

Amen.  Literally.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: libertarian4321 on October 11, 2015, 02:27:45 AM
Second I don't know how any mustachian could knock a guy for amassing wealth. If you had millions you might not live the the same as a hundred thousandnaire


It's one thing to amass wealth by working hard and managing your money wisely.

It's something else altogether to prey upon the weak and stupid who send their rent money to Osteen or any other "prosperity gospel" charlatan. 

Osteen tools around in (yet another) Lear jet while his victims, er, parishioners, can't afford to keep the lights turned on.

Just because he speaks softly, utters soothing platitudes, and wears a permanent pageant smile doesn't make him any less a predator than the other less polished "prosperity gospel" preachers.

I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read of Jesus, I suspect he'd VOMIT if he saw Osteen living the lavish life of an emperor, when a couple of miles from his mega-church, people are jobless, homeless, and hungry.

Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: libertarian4321 on October 11, 2015, 02:29:36 AM


I don't dispute that he is charismatic and entertaining and likable.  He's just also a fraud.

That's okay, though.  Houdini was a fraud too, yet people flocked to him despite knowing it.
[/quote]

Joseph Smith, too, and broadly, he was a magician first. If you have charisma and direct it towards religion, great things can happen (to you- wealth beyond compare) and to the people who attend your services.  I'm just saying perhaps it's a good idea to scratch below the surface to make sure the person you follow is what you believe him to be
[/quote]

Jesus, Muhammed, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard.

All very similar characters, preying on the gullible.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 11, 2015, 07:06:14 PM
 
[/quote]

I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read of Jesus, I suspect he'd VOMIT if he saw Osteen living the lavish life of an emperor, when a couple of miles from his mega-church, people are jobless, homeless, and hungry.

[/quote]

agreed.

Your other post quoting me, I have no memory of what was in that box, but I know for sure, it was not anything supportive of Osteen

Agreed Hubbard, Smith- charlatans. Smith was a magician of sorts before the angel gave him the golden plates that he apparently lost, because when asked to translate them, he would stick his face in a hat with magical stones in it.  He would come up with a piece of parchment with a character and English translation, he would tell that to his helper monkey who would write it down and then magically, the character conveniently disappeared from the parchment.  That 10 million people believe this and all the rest, amazes me. That they believe they can convert anyone who is dead to their religion is sickening.  I feel like I need legal papers to protect me from conversion when dead.  Hubbard, ten times worse. 

I think Jesus, though, himself, if he existed was a man who taught peace, charity, forgiveness, etc. Or he was a composite character. I do not believe (usually) that he was the Son of God and I think the harm being done in his name is sickening, not what he taught and he would VOMIT, as you said, should he see what man has become.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: ahoy on October 14, 2015, 03:10:01 AM
I've watched Joel a few times a few years back.  From what I remember, his sermons were uplifting.  I think if he's making loads of money from his books etc, well, I guess he can buy his big old fancy house.  Obviously it would be bad if that money was from his congregation.   Supposedly he doesn't take a salary from his church.   If it was me in his position, I would hope that I would give a large percentage of it away.  who needs a 17,000 sqft house? it's just ridiculous.

There are a lot of churches that stream their sermons online, I try to catch maybe one a week. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on October 14, 2015, 02:21:45 PM


I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read....

Just to clarify, faith & reason are not at odds with one another.  Read some St. Thomas Aquinas for more, if interested.  The idea that they don't fit together is on par with claiming left-handedness and playing baseball are incompatible.

You can have faith and make intelligent arguments, that's true.

But faith and reason are often very much in conflict.

Faith, by definition, is the belief in something in the absence of objective evidence in support of your belief, or in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Fundamentalists who believe in a 6000 year old world are an excellent example of faithful believers, and of those who display an absence of reason.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on October 14, 2015, 05:24:43 PM
I don't disagree that the above quote is a bit dismissive, and judgemental.

One can simultaneously be a man of faith and a man of reason of course, but perhaps not about the same subject?

Faith and reason do have
An essential conflict and that is that faith by definition stands completely apart from reason.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: firewalker on October 14, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
Can someone who is faithfully dismissive also be reasonably judgemental?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 18, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Everything is based on faith at some point.

I find it interesting that people keep circling his house. Im sure his wife wanted that house. I think he said as much at some point poking fun the way he does. Would you rule out a President of the United States because he drives a Bentley or takes a limo to work? Judging by the Donald I would say no. So then why must our spiritual leaders from whatever faith have to be poor? I don't get that.

Its like the demons come out and say in order to be righteous you have to be a loser. Not true. Im sure every king mentioned in the bible did not live poor. Joseph did not live poor. He lived in Pharaohs palace after prison. Job troubled as he was by destruction was not poor. Not even close. Yet he was clearly a favorite of God. It doesn't matter if it is literal or metaphorical. The message is the same. You don't have to be poor. Don't take advantage of the poor. Help the poor when you can. Got $500 in your pocket and a bum asks for a burger. Go buy him a burger. I understand not giving money for booze but you can buy him a burger. That is if relieving human suffering is worth 5 minutes of your time.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 18, 2015, 07:30:02 PM

Everything is based on faith at some point.


Everything? Really?  Thank God Salk prayed and had faith in that polio vaccine, where would we be now had he not?

Alex, I'll take Science for $1000
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 18, 2015, 08:27:59 PM
Yep. I think Socrates showed repeatedly that when questioned far enough people really don't know what they are talking about. I have found that to be mostly true. Science also said that the Earth was the center of the galaxy. It said the universe was static not expanding. It said bleeding would help cure illness. It changes its mind a lot and tells everyone else they must be eternally accountable for the things they claim. I say that even loving science and my personal saint, Carl Sagan. The man sure did appreciate Gods works even if he had a personal mission against the worlds religions.

I will take Philosophy for 500 Alex
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on October 19, 2015, 10:37:48 PM
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Yes. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: needmyfi on October 20, 2015, 07:47:51 AM
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?

My guess is that when you rent a stadium so 50,000 people can come see you its not free. Just guessing.
My guess is at 30 bucks a ticket it doesn't cost 1.5 million bucks either.  I would guess that 5 bucks would easily cover the cost of the venue and pay for his über driver as well
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 20, 2015, 11:24:11 AM
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Yes.

+1

short and to the point!
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: LiseE on October 20, 2015, 01:38:03 PM
Quote
Its like the demons come out and say in order to be righteous you have to be a loser. Not true. Im sure every king mentioned in the bible did not live poor. Joseph did not live poor. He lived in Pharaohs palace after prison. Job troubled as he was by destruction was not poor. Not even close. Yet he was clearly a favorite of God. It doesn't matter if it is literal or metaphorical. The message is the same. You don't have to be poor. Don't take advantage of the poor. Help the poor when you can. Got $500 in your pocket and a bum asks for a burger. Go buy him a burger. I understand not giving money for booze but you can buy him a burger. That is if relieving human suffering is worth 5 minutes of your time.

+1  (well said)

.. thread on joel osteen on it's way to a third page ..
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: LiseE on October 21, 2015, 08:13:46 AM
" This confident optimism actually opens up gigantic doors for us and creates unimaginable opportunities.  The reason, of course, is not actual magic, but the effect your optimism has on the people around you. People want to hire you, or to help you, or to work for you, because big thinkers are very rare and it’s exciting to be around one. The guaranteed key to a happy (and Rich) life is to have an easy time working with other people. With this confidence, you don’t have to worry about a recession, or a depression, or using gold coins as currency in a post-apocalyptic shanty town, because you’ll always be able to work with other people, build a productive community, and have some good fun with your life. As a side effect, you will accumulate much more money." - MMM in his review of The Magic of Thinking Big

This is EXACTLY the same message that Joel Osteen preaches except the 'magic' in the above quote = God for Christians. 

.. and by the way .. MMM credits this book to completely changing his life ...
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Argyle on October 21, 2015, 10:35:23 AM
I'm a little boggled that anyone would think great wealth is appropriate for a devout Christian.  A lot of people have tried to weasel around that - "Couldn't I just be a little bit rich, if I was very religious?  Wouldn't it be okay to have fancy cars and a huge house if I lead other people to Christ?  It would be okay then, right?  And the plane and the expensive things?  If I pray a lot and don't cheat on my wife, I could have a house with three elevators, six bathrooms, and $40 million in the bank, like Joel Osteen, right?"  But come on:

Luke 16:13: "You cannot be the slave of two masters. You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than to the other. You cannot serve God and money." 

Mark 10:23: "Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!'"

Matthew 19:24: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

James 5: 1-3: "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.  Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days."

I don't buy the argument, "He's gotten really good at being rich and devout, so he can get away with it."  People do love trying to make the Bible approve of what they personally want.  But the Bible seems clear to me.  If you don't believe in the Bible, well and good.  But Osteen professes to.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: davidw on October 21, 2015, 02:08:36 PM
.. thread on joel osteen on it's way to a third page ..

Because discussions of people's personal and religious beliefs on the internet are always a great idea...
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 01:56:58 AM
Quote
Because discussions of people's personal and religious beliefs on the internet are always a great idea...

yes people are brutally honest even if it is cowardly and low to hide in anonymity


Quote
I'm a little boggled that anyone would think great wealth is appropriate for a devout Christian.

Not one quote you gave says it can not be done. It says it is hard. Its hard when you have money not to put it first. It took a lot to get it.

What does the Bible say about money:
Mat 25:27 NIV: Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
Romans 13:8 NIV: Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Exodus 22:25 NIV: If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not treat it like a business deal; charge no interest. (God likes ZIRP)
Ezekiel 22:12 NIV: In you are people who accept bribes to shed blood; you take interest and make a profit from the poor. You extort unjust gain from your neighbors. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Luke 16 leading up to your quote: Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
Mat 7:6 NIV: Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Not everyone is worthy of your money. Everyone will not use it wisely. Do not collect debts, do not charge for loans, do not take advantage of the poor, and put your money where it will collect a little interest. Be a good steward of what God has given you. Do not put what he has given you first.

That is the message I see.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 22, 2015, 10:31:25 AM

LOL
Both fall for the same logic trap.  It's called ignoring the graveyard. But Osteen, as a Christian, is flat out wrong.

+1

if he were selling something other than Christ's supposed teachings, I'd have no problem with that, amass as much wealth as you desire. He seems to be a motivational speaker, do that, leave God out of it. 

Plus, there's Matthew 19:24, "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Especially a uber-rich man mega-church leader who charges $30 to attend his show.  Meh, so we only have to deal with him on Earth.  He won't be brushing elbows with Matthew up there, IMHO.  Or who knows, he may be knocking knuckles with God.  Either way, I will be walking in the opposite direction
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Argyle on October 22, 2015, 01:49:49 PM
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.  You can say, "Well, Joel and I both have lots of money, but you see we don't love it, so that's okay.  We're just keeping it around.  We like having it, but we don't like it.  If you just read the legal fine print you'll see being filthy rich is okay under narrow circumstances which Joel and I just happen to fulfill."  But if you have more than you need to support yourself (and don't tell me that $40 million is no more than Joel Osteen needs), and you hang onto it, I'd say you love it more than you love Luke 18:22: "When Jesus heard this, He said to him, 'One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'"  It's as if the wealthy say, "Jesus didn't really mean that.  I'm taking the get-out clause."

The capacity of people to believe that the Bible approves of things like wealth, ostentious public prayers, and all manner of self-serving actions, seems limitless. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 06:11:29 PM
Quote
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.

Context. Your context is unclear. Pulling one line doesn't mean much. Did Solomon give all his money to the poor? Yes or No.

Did Jesus not say "The poor you will have always." Yes or No

Does it not also say that he can be trusted with little can be trusted with a lot? Yes or No

Does it not say that you should be a good steward with the masters money?

Going back to "my translation of the translated scriptures from 2000 years ago is absolutely correct", did you read that passage from the original Greek? Are you a history major to put it into context? Does it literally mean trying to shove a camel through a sewing needle eye, or does it mean camel hair through a sewing needle eye, or does it mean take a camel through a geographical area called the eye of a needle that was a difficult path? Do you know? I have heard all three. All three were certain that "their interpretation of interpreted scriptures from 2000 years ago was absolutely correct"

I suppose you want Joel to ignore this passage:
Mat 6:2 NIV: So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 22, 2015, 06:34:30 PM
whatever floats your boat then, if you want to be a Christian who supports a  megalomaniacal man like Osteen, who won't let his "charity" be examined by groups like Give.org, that serve to help consumers make sure they are giving to an up and up charity, have at it. If you honestly believe the New Testament, not the Old, says you should collect wealth beyond measure and what was that post, give $5 cheeseburgers to the homeless, so you and God are copacetic, go for it. If you want to be that person who has many times more than one man needs, fine.  Just don't expect a pat on the head for what a great Christian you are from others, although such a person probably does not care. And if you justify accumulating wealth as being taught by, pick your group, say the ancient Greeks, and that helps you sleep at night, then you are truly blessed. That you can sleep soundly knowing of the poverty, the starvation, lack of drinking water, the violence against women and children, etc. all throughout this world, then you are a lucky man.  But to say you are at all in Christ's image is disgusting.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 22, 2015, 06:48:27 PM
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.  You can say, "Well, Joel and I both have lots of money, but you see we don't love it, so that's okay.  We're just keeping it around.  We like having it, but we don't like it.  If you just read the legal fine print you'll see being filthy rich is okay under narrow circumstances which Joel and I just happen to fulfill."  But if you have more than you need to support yourself (and don't tell me that $40 million is no more than Joel Osteen needs), and you hang onto it, I'd say you love it more than you love Luke 18:22: "When Jesus heard this, He said to him, 'One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'"  It's as if the wealthy say, "Jesus didn't really mean that.  I'm taking the get-out clause."

The capacity of people to believe that the Bible approves of things like wealth, ostentious public prayers, and all manner of self-serving actions, seems limitless.

+1 

even if you take the entire Bible out of the equation and snap your WWJD rubber bracelet a few times and concentrate really hard on what would he do? And you still hold these beliefs, good for you, but to me, you are deluded
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 06:59:20 PM
Well brother all fall short the glory of God. There are none that are righteous, no not one. I think Paul said that. I could be wrong.

I think (Im qualifying this statement) that God judges on a sliding scale. To those given much, much is expected.

The mean in the United States is $28,000 a year. I suppose while raising kids you think they should tithe 10% and give whatever is left to the homeless. Ironically they are probably more generous on a percentage basis then most who push giving money to the poor. The average (numbers bled down from the top earners) is $44,000 a year. I guess they are rich with two kids right. They should give it all to the poor. Oh wait what about billionaires? Well Bill Gates does in fact give a ton to the poor. Most extremely wealthy people do. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe God blesses them because he knows what they will do with it. Maybe its just a human trait that says you can only have so much before you start feeling guilty.

Either way, I have never seen Joel ask for someone to tithe. I have never seen him ask for someone to charge a seed to someones credit card. Joel is not what some other televangelists are.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich. The fact that the bible has been twisted to steal people wealth is disgusting. Really disgusting because some of the best fall for that argument when they could have had years moderately helping the poor they instead threw it all away. That is sad.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 07:07:47 PM
For the doubters, Mel Gibson said it best.

https://youtu.be/27qUO8_9uT0
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Riff on October 22, 2015, 07:31:13 PM
... who charges $30 to attend his show. 

I've seen this a few times in this thread, that it costs $30 to attend his church.  I've never been there, but my wife went a couple of years ago and said that it was free.  Also, from his church's website: "There is no fee to attend our church services, and free parking is provided."  https://www.lakewoodchurch.com/Pages/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions.aspx

Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 22, 2015, 07:43:33 PM
Well brother all fall short the glory of God. There are none that are righteous, no not one. I think Paul said that. I could be wrong.

I think (Im qualifying this statement) that God judges on a sliding scale. To those given much, much is expected.

The mean in the United States is $28,000 a year. I suppose while raising kids you think they should tithe 10% and give whatever is left to the homeless. Ironically they are probably more generous on a percentage basis then most who push giving money to the poor. The average (numbers bled down from the top earners) is $44,000 a year. I guess they are rich with two kids right. They should give it all to the poor. Oh wait what about billionaires? Well Bill Gates does in fact give a ton to the poor. Most extremely wealthy people do. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe God blesses them because he knows what they will do with it. Maybe its just a human trait that says you can only have so much before you start feeling guilty.

Either way, I have never seen Joel ask for someone to tithe. I have never seen him ask for someone to charge a seed to someones credit card. Joel is not what some other televangelists are.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich. The fact that the bible has been twisted to steal people wealth is disgusting. Really disgusting because some of the best fall for that argument when they could have had years moderately helping the poor they instead threw it all away. That is sad.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich, whatever that means. However, a televangelist, preaching God's word, and profiting hugely from it in tv and book deals, whether the seats are free or cost $30, whatever.  That is not Christ-like unless you have a very different view of what Christ taught, even Christ as a man, not the Son of God. If you took Osteen out and magically dropped Christ in, do you really think Christ would live the life Osteen has chosen?

I cannot find a figure of the amout Osteen donates. So how is he doing God’s will with his proceeds from preaching his word? I think a $30 ticket price is asking quite a bit, especially when you conceal what you do for the less fortunate. Others say the seats are free.  I have no idea where the truth lies with this man. 

I respect Bill Gates and his philanthropy, what he gives is not concealed, he has done wonders with his Foundation, too many to list.  What has Osteen done?  He will not commit and I don’t think it’s because one should not brag of how they help others.  I don’t think he does it in any meaningful way or we would surely know about it. He has a "charity" that he does not want a group like Give.org to examine, that speaks volumes.  And he has said he visits the sick occasionally in a Houston hospital.  Boy, it's hard keeping up with Gates, you have to actually do stuff, donate money, donate your time to his projects.  Those Houston hospital visits just wear him out.

I have to stop talking about Osteen, so I can enjoy the rest of my evening not thinking about what constitutes a “good” Christian, and a “good” man.  As Justice Stewart said it, "I know it when I see it."
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 07:57:49 PM
even if you take the entire Bible out of the equation and snap your WWJD rubber bracelet a few times and concentrate really hard on what would he do? And you still hold these beliefs, good for you, but to me, you are deluded

So its not Joel you have an issue with. You don't believe and issues with those who do. Thats cool, as long as we are clear about that.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 22, 2015, 08:11:02 PM
how do you get that I don't believe in Jesus?  I was being facetious. I do not believe that men like Osteen deserve respect from the religious community, he did not even graduate from a school of Divinity.  I worked with wonderful chaplains in Hospice, all had been to divinity school, 3 from Yale, years of extra schooling to make a very modest salary easing the suffering of the dying.  Pick any one of them and they could run theological circles around Osteen. I do not believe in a man who makes preaching religion more about us, than about God.  This has been said of him many times.

I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit and God, the Holy Trinity.  I do not believe in men like Osteen claiming to be religious leaders. 

Fight with me alone, I am done for the night. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 22, 2015, 08:33:05 PM
Judge not lest ye be judged as ye have judged.

That is one of the most Christian rules I know. It is often violated. I am not perfect but I have been through the fire with the bible. I will bring up objections hard as steel. I earnestly sought God with all my heart a few years. I went into anti Christian forums and took the furnace full blast. Most in there are very knowledgable ex-Christians. They don't pull punches. (not recommended if you like peace and joy in your heart and want to keep your faith)


There is a reason Socrates was poisoned you know. Knowledge exposed is little indeed. That includes me by the way. I don't think God wants us to have all the answers. Yet I still find myself believing, just not in any know-it-all church. I want no part of that, or those who claim God needs my money.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: LiseE on October 23, 2015, 01:19:26 PM
Quote
he did not even graduate from a school of Divinity

that doesn't matter at all ... if God wants to use you he will .. I bet that those of you bashing him here haven't spent much time listening to him speak.  I for one thought he was all an act (unfortunately you cannot be a religious person on TV and not have that connotation immediately) but the more I listened the more I liked his uplifting message and optimism.  Only difference is that he gives the credit to God.  I listen to him quite a bit on my way to and from work and I can honestly say it puts me in a better mind frame to start and end my day.  I've never heard him ask for money .. never .. not once.

Lastly .. there are many people in the bible that had God's favor.  King David, King Solomon .. Lazarus was a dear friend of Jesus's and he was a wealthy man.  It's not about the money or the material things we possess .. it's about the priority we put on it ... you cannot worship/serve two masters. 

OK .. lastly (really) I would be happier about it if Joel gave away most of his money but I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on October 23, 2015, 03:16:27 PM
I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: milesdividendmd on October 23, 2015, 03:18:53 PM

I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.

Beautifully argued Sol.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 23, 2015, 04:32:10 PM
Nobody knows how much he gives away but they really want to know so they can judge him. They want to determine if he is a good Christian. I thought God was supposed to do that.

People like clear cut rules so they can say I did this and I did that. I am worthy and they are not. Where is grace in that? I thought it was by grace we are redeemed.

Would you approach someone is the grocery store and tell them their child is not worthy of them because of x. I think you might get punched in face? How is it different with God
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on October 23, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Nobody knows how much he gives away but they really want to know so they can judge him. They want to determine if he is a good Christian. I thought God was supposed to do that.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

How about we all just agree that the afterlife will sort its own problems out, and here in this life we should maybe try to address ours.  No more of this "he'll get his in the hereafter" nonsense when he can get his right here and now.  Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 23, 2015, 08:00:53 PM

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.


Excuse the edits, but I wanted to get to the meat of the argument.

How is that? Lets review

People on here have claimed that Joel does not give to the poor and insinuated that he unrightfully takes advantage of the poor. Thats a serious accusation. A major Ad Hominem indeed. Is there any proof of this? No.

Has any been presented? He doesn't share his financial statements. Hmm, what exactly does he have to gain from doing this. More criticism of hey it should be in this charity instead of that or it should be more.

Honest criticism is by its nature honest-- not false accusation without proof.

Bill Gates gives a lot to the poor but drives $100,000 porche. Is that justified? I bet Joel could give half away and still have what he has. Half is not enough, no.. show me where it says that. If you mention the passage where Jesus is referring to a specific man does that mean you should pick up your bed room mattress and walk too? Serious question.

On the Sermon of the Mount-- does he say give all your money to the poor?

When someone makes a claim that they know its supposed to be a certain way and they want to throw the bible at me-- I say bring it on. I would love to learn something new.

You mentioned the afterlife

“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.”

Psalm 146:4

“The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10

Thats a Jehova Witnes argument by the way. I am familiar with them and the Catholics, the Baptists, the Mormons, the Scientologists, and Zen Buddhists. Been to each church and temple except the Mormons. I forgot to mention that my wife comes from a jewish family, I have been to a synagog, and that my some of my German ancestry claims to be Ashkenazic Jew.

Im not sure the bible is clear on this but if it comforts you that your ancestors look over you then I say it can't be disproven either. The bible is unclear. I think it is wise to steer around areas where the bible is unclear and beware of additions of man that ask for money. Man has always found a way to make the most despicable things profitable. I realize what I just said could horrify most Christians. I am not most. I will tell you I am certain when Jesus comes down and shakes my hand. That was doubting Thomas' position and if Christ didn't find fault with it why would I? I do believe in Christ. I will not profess that I know exactly what he wants. I think Joel is wise to steer around many of these muddy waters. If God wanted them to be clear they would be.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Telecaster on October 23, 2015, 08:38:30 PM
You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on October 23, 2015, 08:43:48 PM
You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Touché
May the force be with you.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: LiseE on October 26, 2015, 02:10:38 PM
Quote
This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Not true and I only meant that God is the ultimate judge so why waste precious energy judging each other.   If there is only this life I would still live the same way I do as a Christian .. treating people as I would like to be treated and striving to make the world a better place. 

You make it sound like for those of us that believe in the after life, we are simply "earning our way" to heaven or in fear of God's judgement when we get there ... not so ... you can't earn your way to heaven.   
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 28, 2015, 05:01:16 AM
I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.

+1  especially the last 2 sentences
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: FLA on October 28, 2015, 05:05:45 AM
.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.
[/quote]

and this, Sol's on a roll
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: jinga nation on October 30, 2015, 01:25:13 PM
.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

and this, Sol's on a roll
[/quote]
When a preacher's words and actions are based on a text written by another man claiming it is the word of a supernatural power, there's no rock to stand on. If that power was supernatural, why didn't it create the paper, the ink, and transcribing its thoughts to text? Or just etch it in rock using fire/laser/lightning power?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sirdoug007 on November 06, 2015, 09:43:58 AM
Just saw this compilation of posts from a comedian trolling Osteen's facebook page as "Joel Oldsteen."  Friggin' hilarious!!

http://the-daily.buzz/preacher-facebook/
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on November 08, 2015, 07:23:42 AM
You are gonna watch Joel today. I just know it.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: windypig on November 08, 2015, 06:59:45 PM
I'd rather watch a good sci-fi movie than attend any form of religious event. More entertaining and similarly accurate.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: biocmp on December 10, 2015, 07:56:54 PM
There's a cold place in hell reserved for Joel Olsteen.

If wealth is God's blessing, is poverty God's curse?
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on December 13, 2015, 12:51:55 AM
There's a cold place in hell reserved for Joel Olsteen.

If wealth is God's blessing, is poverty God's curse?

To the first part, why is that?

To the second part is hard to say but I want to say no. I think that mostly revolves around luck, circumstances, and our priorities.
I think it is important to recognize our place. If you are poor you can not help the poor financially.

Are you struggling with finances? Watch Cinderella Man. I'll ask again. Are you struggling with finances? Has life gotten hard? Watch Interstellar. Are you valuing whats important? Watch the Family Man. Watch the Weatherman. Do the odds seem hopeless? Watch the Grey. Are you lost? Watch Signs.

There is some Hollywood ministry when you need it. I still recommend Joel for the open minded



Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: biocmp on January 21, 2016, 11:34:17 AM
I'm struggling with none of those things but your presumptions come off as condescension.  I'm in the 95+% percentile of earners for my age (according to some random web tool).  That has nothing to do with my sentiments towards Olsteen.

Further insinuating that my mind is closed because I don't like Olsteen is...poor taste.  Hopefully next you'll compare me to Hitler.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Sid Hoffman on January 21, 2016, 11:48:26 AM
When a preacher's words and actions are based on a text written by another man claiming it is the word of a supernatural power, there's no rock to stand on. If that power was supernatural, why didn't it create the paper, the ink, and transcribing its thoughts to text? Or just etch it in rock using fire/laser/lightning power?

Suppose for a moment there is a God.  Is he required to do only the things you expect of him?  If you expect that he works by etching words in stone using a cosmic laser beam, does that mean he's required to do it - because YOU wanted him to?  If God truly is operating at a higher plane than humanity, then why does humanity feel that it gets to dictate to God what he should do?  From what I've seen, the scientific method generally fails when you start off saying "OK, since I expect these certain results, I'm going to disregard anything that doesn't align with those results."  Similarly, it might be poor process to disregard a notion of God (or anything else, for that matter) simply because it doesn't align with what you wanted to find. Just something to ponder.  :)
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: sol on January 21, 2016, 01:38:10 PM
Just something to ponder.  :)

I have pondered, and upon further reflection I have decided that you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are going to start a discussion with "suppose this theory is correct" then your theory has to be testable and falsifiable. That's how science works.  You can't prove something is true by asserting it to be true and unprovable. 
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Sid Hoffman on January 21, 2016, 09:58:13 PM
I have pondered, and upon further reflection I have decided that you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are going to start a discussion with "suppose this theory is correct" then your theory has to be testable and falsifiable. That's how science works.  You can't prove something is true by asserting it to be true and unprovable.

Well the God of the bible doesn't want to be provable, he wants to be known by faith.  Again, you're free to hate the fact that doesn't fit your idea of how it's supposed to work, but it's actually stated pretty plainly in the bible.  He intends to be just beyond the realm of proof.  Don't ask me why - that's just what the bible says, so you are correct in that the God of the bible cannot be proven.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: wenchsenior on January 23, 2016, 10:30:26 AM
When a preacher's words and actions are based on a text written by another man claiming it is the word of a supernatural power, there's no rock to stand on. If that power was supernatural, why didn't it create the paper, the ink, and transcribing its thoughts to text? Or just etch it in rock using fire/laser/lightning power?

Suppose for a moment there is a God.  Is he required to do only the things you expect of him?  If you expect that he works by etching words in stone using a cosmic laser beam, does that mean he's required to do it - because YOU wanted him to?  If God truly is operating at a higher plane than humanity, then why does humanity feel that it gets to dictate to God what he should do?  From what I've seen, the scientific method generally fails when you start off saying "OK, since I expect these certain results, I'm going to disregard anything that doesn't align with those results."  Similarly, it might be poor process to disregard a notion of God (or anything else, for that matter) simply because it doesn't align with what you wanted to find. Just something to ponder.  :)

Fuck, never mind. What Sol said.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on January 24, 2016, 08:21:07 PM
I'm struggling with none of those things but your presumptions come off as condescension.  I'm in the 95+% percentile of earners for my age (according to some random web tool).  That has nothing to do with my sentiments towards Olsteen.

Further insinuating that my mind is closed because I don't like Olsteen is...poor taste.  Hopefully next you'll compare me to Hitler.

Wrong, I see you in the Weatherman sitting on the couch in this scene. It is totally you. Hollywood knows-- they always know:

https://youtu.be/JmZI1_78lJU

Psychoanalysis: you hate Joel because you think he didn't earn it like you. You think its easy to get up in front of 50,000 people or get on TV with millions watching and talk about one of the most taboo subjects out there-- God. Thats my analysis. You didn't earn it all yourself you know. Luck, parents, the right teachers, and natural endowments that were given to you took you there. You didn't will yourself into existence and to where you are
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: biocmp on January 25, 2016, 09:24:46 AM
I'm struggling with none of those things but your presumptions come off as condescension.  I'm in the 95+% percentile of earners for my age (according to some random web tool).  That has nothing to do with my sentiments towards Olsteen.

Further insinuating that my mind is closed because I don't like Olsteen is...poor taste.  Hopefully next you'll compare me to Hitler.

Wrong, I see you in the Weatherman sitting on the couch in this scene. It is totally you. Hollywood knows-- they always know:

https://youtu.be/JmZI1_78lJU

Psychoanalysis: you hate Joel because you think he didn't earn it like you. You think its easy to get up in front of 50,000 people or get on TV with millions watching and talk about one of the most taboo subjects out there-- God. Thats my analysis. You didn't earn it all yourself you know. Luck, parents, the right teachers, and natural endowments that were given to you took you there. You didn't will yourself into existence and to where you are

You are really bad at this. I attribute a great deal of my success to my family & friends, to hard work and to luck.  I don't like Joel because I don't like sola scriptura, ahistorical analysis of this world (religion included).  Your goal of reducing disagreeing opinions to psychological faults of your detractors is, once again, condescending.

And I'm not necessarily anti-God or anti-religion. I'm anti-wolves-in-sheeps-clothing.

Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on January 26, 2016, 12:12:48 AM
I'm struggling with none of those things but your presumptions come off as condescension.  I'm in the 95+% percentile of earners for my age (according to some random web tool).  That has nothing to do with my sentiments towards Olsteen.

Further insinuating that my mind is closed because I don't like Olsteen is...poor taste.  Hopefully next you'll compare me to Hitler.

Wrong, I see you in the Weatherman sitting on the couch in this scene. It is totally you. Hollywood knows-- they always know:

https://youtu.be/JmZI1_78lJU

Psychoanalysis: you hate Joel because you think he didn't earn it like you. You think its easy to get up in front of 50,000 people or get on TV with millions watching and talk about one of the most taboo subjects out there-- God. Thats my analysis. You didn't earn it all yourself you know. Luck, parents, the right teachers, and natural endowments that were given to you took you there. You didn't will yourself into existence and to where you are

You are really bad at this. I attribute a great deal of my success to my family & friends, to hard work and to luck.  I don't like Joel because I don't like sola scriptura, ahistorical analysis of this world (religion included).  Your goal of reducing disagreeing opinions to psychological faults of your detractors is, once again, condescending.

And I'm not necessarily anti-God or anti-religion. I'm anti-wolves-in-sheeps-clothing.

So help me understand then. You don't like Joel because you know what he is without providing proof of wrong doing-- except that he is religious, and you view this as being naive, stupid, or wolfish (to take advantage of stupid people like me). Is that right? He is a wolf and I am condescending.. [does a McConahey pause, touches lip and raises finger in the air]

Reducing disagreeing opinions to psychological faults of their detractors is what people do-- they just don't say it. Thats why the religious are stupid and atheists are self righteous elitist assholes. Unless you are Gondi. You would have to be a real monster not to like Gondi, Mother Teresa, or the Dalai Lama. Those are cool because its all about perception and popularity and not stepping on any toes. I mean Christians say you have to believe in Jesus and thats just bullshit right? Now I think we are getting somewhere. Its okay to be a Christian as long as you keep your mouth shut. Mother Teressa was a doer so she is cool. Joel talks so he is a wolf. You know what? I know a secret [draws a fish in the sand]
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on January 26, 2016, 02:03:42 AM
Before I get crucified or am forced to drink a cup of Hemlock I better say its okay not to like Joel. You don't have to its your right. I read you will not like 25% of the people you meet for no reason at all. I think when we do that [I have been guilty from time to time] we should say that. I just don't like him. Big difference from saying he deserves hell. There is hate in that. A personal stake in that. That might not be reality but that is what I perceive and perception is what perception does [I like movies can you tell]
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: biocmp on January 26, 2016, 09:19:35 AM
I'm struggling with none of those things but your presumptions come off as condescension.  I'm in the 95+% percentile of earners for my age (according to some random web tool).  That has nothing to do with my sentiments towards Olsteen.

Further insinuating that my mind is closed because I don't like Olsteen is...poor taste.  Hopefully next you'll compare me to Hitler.

Wrong, I see you in the Weatherman sitting on the couch in this scene. It is totally you. Hollywood knows-- they always know:

https://youtu.be/JmZI1_78lJU

Psychoanalysis: you hate Joel because you think he didn't earn it like you. You think its easy to get up in front of 50,000 people or get on TV with millions watching and talk about one of the most taboo subjects out there-- God. Thats my analysis. You didn't earn it all yourself you know. Luck, parents, the right teachers, and natural endowments that were given to you took you there. You didn't will yourself into existence and to where you are

You are really bad at this. I attribute a great deal of my success to my family & friends, to hard work and to luck.  I don't like Joel because I don't like sola scriptura, ahistorical analysis of this world (religion included).  Your goal of reducing disagreeing opinions to psychological faults of your detractors is, once again, condescending.

And I'm not necessarily anti-God or anti-religion. I'm anti-wolves-in-sheeps-clothing.

So help me understand then. You don't like Joel because you know what he is without providing proof of wrong doing-- except that he is religious, and you view this as being naive, stupid, or wolfish (to take advantage of stupid people like me). Is that right? He is a wolf and I am condescending.. [does a McConahey pause, touches lip and raises finger in the air]

Reducing disagreeing opinions to psychological faults of their detractors is what people do-- they just don't say it. Thats why the religious are stupid and atheists are self righteous elitist assholes. Unless you are Gondi. You would have to be a real monster not to like Gondi, Mother Teresa, or the Dalai Lama. Those are cool because its all about perception and popularity and not stepping on any toes. I mean Christians say you have to believe in Jesus and thats just bullshit right? Now I think we are getting somewhere. Its okay to be a Christian as long as you keep your mouth shut. Mother Teressa was a doer so she is cool. Joel talks so he is a wolf. You know what? I know a secret [draws a fish in the sand]

You do understand what condescension means, right?  I'm outright calling Joel Olsteen a manipulative fraud, there is no subtlety or need to condescend.

I've never claimed the religious are stupid, nor atheists to be elitist assholes.  You are the one throwing around ad hominem attacks or hoping to subtly imply psychological failures on the part of your detractors. I vociferously disagree with you regarding Olsteen.  I don't necessarily think you are selfish or greedy or stupid because you like Olsteen. None of that analysis is required to have this conversation.

Further, you are not very good at e-analyzing people. You've missed me on every attempt you've made so far. First you assumed I was poor, then you assumed I was a "Self-made" arrogant elitist, now you are subtly assuming I'm an atheist (and you are wrong again).

I don't like Olsteen because he is a smiling, glad-handed salesman.  He sells a prosperity message that I find wholly inconsistent with the recorded works of Jesus' life.  To understand Jesus, it would be best to understand the history of his people, the development of the Bible, the development of his Church and keep all of that in mind when trying to elucidate the message being presented.

Why does Christ say this:

"For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

And this:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

If you accept Jesus but your idea of Jesus is incorrect, what have you accepted?

Further, at what point in your philosophical journey did you determine a God was needed? Why did you then determine the Judeo-Christian God was the correct one? 

Why not read the Bhagavad Gita? Or A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life? What is it about Joel Olsteen's message that is so resounding?  Why do you believe Joel is the one who will lead you closer to Christ's true message?

You don't think Gandhi, Mother Teresa or Dalai Lama stepped on toes? They've become universal icons precisely because they stepped on toes and allowed their actions to speak louder than their words.  And when you say the Dalai Lama, I presume you are referencing the 14th Dalai Lama, the one incarnate now.   

Fully-lived religion, assuming it doesn't become terroristic in nature, is an honorable thing. People attempting to live consistently within a moral framework is laudable from my view. It's the piecemeal approach to religion that I find wholly inconsonant with Christ's message or any religion.  Believing Jesus in word and believing Jesus in deed are two very distinct things and I have little interest in hearing someone parrot a bunch of scripture verses and tell me God just wants me to be happy.

Your second reply insinuating we'd be interested in giving you a death similar to Christ or Socrates is overblown. You haven't earned those so you needn't worry.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on January 26, 2016, 08:38:20 PM
I like theatrics. Im not psychic but the closer I get to the truth the more people get upset and deny it-- or else they just give you a dull or confused look-- then I know I don't know and I'm off base. I can't see your face but I assure you its a talent of mine. Why waste time on me? Why care? What do you care if someone likes Osteen and is recommending him?

People get upset when you don't agree with their version of reality. That is what I was referring to. You have a stake in it.

And again, he is a fraud with what proof? Your idea of the way a religion you don't practice should be? It is amazing how many non-christians like to judge Christians on their Christianity. They made a song about it  https://youtu.be/u1xrNaTO1bI
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: I.P. Daley on January 26, 2016, 10:53:29 PM
Edit: Retracting message for now, and sending it instead as a private message. Apologies to all.

The words were not flattering towards Mr. Osteen's gospel, however. I am not a fan of prosperity doctrine as a believer and follower of Messiah, and have little patience for things that detract so blatantly from the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on January 27, 2016, 12:11:52 AM
Okay you obviously put a lot of thought and work into that. I will respect it and leave the thread in peace with others to say what they like. They should be able to say their peace.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: elcheapo on January 27, 2016, 12:16:38 AM
I think Joel Osteen is clearly a fraud who exploits people of faith.  Other Christians generally think he's a heretic, because the focus of his religion is always himself (and that yours should be you) rather than about God.

Anybody who amasses a net worth north of $50 billion (and counting) by claiming to preach Jesus's message is so far removed from the Bible that there is no redemption available to them.  He's a camel trying to pass through the eye of a needle.

He's only worth $40,000,000 not 50 billion and your just jealous !
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on April 17, 2016, 06:53:12 PM
Great message today. Had to bump the post. You can podcast too
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: ender on April 17, 2016, 07:02:36 PM
And again, he is a fraud with what proof? Your idea of the way a religion you don't practice should be? It is amazing how many non-christians like to judge Christians on their Christianity. They made a song about it  https://youtu.be/u1xrNaTO1bI

Plenty of evangelical Christians (who actually read the Bible) judge Joel Osteen, too.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on April 18, 2016, 07:35:22 AM
And again, he is a fraud with what proof? Your idea of the way a religion you don't practice should be? It is amazing how many non-christians like to judge Christians on their Christianity. They made a song about it  https://youtu.be/u1xrNaTO1bI

Plenty of evangelical Christians (who actually read the Bible) judge Joel Osteen, too.

You know what? My family drank, smoked, and cursed a lot. My grandfather used to drink while driving on long road trips and I wouldn't be buckled up. I would be laying down in the back seat taking a nap. I have a married gay cousin that is in the armed forces. He is a great guy. I love them just the way they are. They are great people. I have an aunt who judges the gay cousin because her church is really anti gay-- she is otherwise probably the sweetest person I know. But she won't spend time with a family member (who could help her out with a lot of problems she has been having as a new widow) because he is gay. His sex life has zero impact on her. I don't get it. That's kind of why I don't go to church. Dropping an F-bomb is less of a sin than turning away blood because they are gay. You isolate a human being for their sex life that you don't see, and think that cursing and drinking is bad? Right
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on April 18, 2016, 09:43:29 AM
And again, he is a fraud with what proof? Your idea of the way a religion you don't practice should be? It is amazing how many non-christians like to judge Christians on their Christianity. They made a song about it  https://youtu.be/u1xrNaTO1bI

Plenty of evangelical Christians (who actually read the Bible) judge Joel Osteen, too.

You know what? My family drank, smoked, and cursed a lot. My grandfather used to drink while driving on long road trips and I wouldn't be buckled up. I would be laying down in the back seat taking a nap. I have a married gay cousin that is in the armed forces. He is a great guy. I love them just the way they are. They are great people. I have an aunt who judges the gay cousin because her church is really anti gay-- she is otherwise probably the sweetest person I know. But she won't spend time with a family member (who could help her out with a lot of problems she has been having as a new widow) because he is gay. His sex life has zero impact on her. I don't get it. That's kind of why I don't go to church. Dropping an F-bomb is less of a sin than turning away blood because they are gay. You isolate a human being for their sex life that you don't see, and think that cursing and drinking is bad? Right

I just watched a recording of "The Story of God with Morgan Freeman" and Joel was in it. It was great. I don't want to distract people from whats important with arguments over details. I think the message in episode 3 of The Story of God is right. I love what Morgan says at the end of the show and agree entirely.

I go to Joel not to learn rules to hold others accountable for-- I go to Joel to connect with the creator. I watch him to be the best person I can be. He helps me do it sometimes and I love him for it
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: BTDretire on May 23, 2016, 02:06:21 PM
Evangelists. Blech. They all make my skin crawl.

  Oh come on now, what about the one that was bragging about one of his followers buying him a Corvette. He went on and on to the point where he said he would even like a second one. (if anyone was a little extra cash)
 At least he's not spending his money!
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: mrpercentage on May 23, 2016, 05:55:31 PM
Well, I didn't bump it. The message from Joel this week was guarding the tongue. He said to put the sword down and be a healer. Speak words of encouragement and not to waste time trying to win arguments. Honestly it's like it was written for me personally. So there it is
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: czr on June 16, 2016, 07:16:49 AM
Well, I didn't bump it. The message from Joel this week was guarding the tongue. He said to put the sword down and be a healer. Speak words of encouragement and not to waste time trying to win arguments. Honestly it's like it was written for me personally. So there it is

Funny. Even though it has been over a month, I watched and remember that weekly episode that words can hurt and be as damaging as physical abuse. I am not religious but find his messages positive and uplifting enough to get over the nonsecular aspects of it all. I don't look for his show but every now and then I turn on the tv and he is on and I mostly like the message. It doesn't bother me that he is loaded or spends money because he probably only spends a small percentage of money he generates for good causes.

PS-What makes it more funny is Tyrion does the opposite of 'hold his tongue' so you may have been speaking about yourself or Tyrion about Joel's message this week personally for either of you.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: Dorian Gray on September 10, 2016, 09:51:01 PM
Osteen-tatious.
Title: Re: Joel Osteen
Post by: BTDretire on September 11, 2016, 07:42:28 AM
Okay. You don't have to watch him but the thing that is clear from every comment is that none of you have. Except Miles, he has a good excuse. I feel the same way about 99% of the churches Miles

Do you dispute that he almost never mentions Jesus much less the crucifixion and resurrection?

Here is one datapoint: http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/07/18/joel-osteen-likes-god-he-just-doesnt-like-jesus-a-twitter-survey-of-joelosteen/

"Just for kicks I did a quick survey of all Joel Osteen tweets in the last year. I can’t go further back, so we’ll stick with going back to July 8, 2013, which is a little more than a year ago. Out of Joel Osteens 806 tweets, not including any of his replies to other people, he mentions “God” 334 time.

Want to guess how many times he mentioned “Jesus”?

Once.

One time.

I figured that number seemed a little, so I exchanged the word “Jesus” for “Christ”? And know how many times Christ was mentioned?

Twice.

Two times."

 I'm not a religious person so, I will probably offend believers.
Maybe their are reasons he doesn't mention Jesus.

The Virgin Birth or Virginal Conception.

"When biblically-informed Christians talk about the ‘Virgin Birth’ they really mean the ‘Virginal Conception’ (Virginitas ante partum), i.e. that Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity Incarnate, had no human biological father"
 
Immaculate conception.

The Immaculate Conception is a belief about Mary’s own condition at her conception. That is, she was “immaculated” by an act of God at the time she was conceived so she would be sinless and therefore the “fitting” mother of the Son of God.

Give me a break, she had a baby without sex, and further reading says she had other children but God continued to keep her virginal. It even says after giving birth her hymen was intact.

Resurrection.

What, he was dead, but now he is a living breathing person that physically is here and walks the world?
If you want to go with a spiritual belief, just philosophy of good, OK, but to say he physically did things,
like turn water into wine, apparently at Mary's insistence, how can you logically think such things.

And probably showing my ignorance, but what do you do with contradictions between the New and old testament and within the New Testament itself.

Why don't all Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old?

Where does evolution fit into your religious beliefs?

 Oh, I like listening to Joel Osteen occasionally myself.

This might be interesting, and I may learn some religious teachings.