Author Topic: Joel Osteen  (Read 28427 times)

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2015, 07:53:20 AM »
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2015, 08:31:58 AM »
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.

how does he do this?  he must have the church listed as non-profit? so earnings are in his name?

milesdividendmd

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 09:13:54 AM »
From a tax efficiency stand point it is tough to beat being a religious charlatan.
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mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2015, 01:47:23 AM »
Joel owns the Summit, he's not renting it. And naturally he's not paying any property taxes on it. The Summit is what it was called when the Houston Rockets played there.
Lakewood is not in San Fransico (he was just there) and the other places he visits and sells out. Stadiums these days it may have been 100,000. $30 is cheaper than 10%. TV is free.

So far I have heard a lot of complaints about hair and money. Meanwhile, I look forward to watching him this Sunday for free. I would pay $30 to see him once though and let the reality of that massive of a crowd coming to hear his message sink in. I don't think the atmosphere comes through as clearly as he does.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

clarkfan1979

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2015, 02:48:05 AM »
I will occasionally watch Joel, but never give money. In-laws love him.

the_fella

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2015, 12:15:11 PM »
I just saved a bunch of money on seeding by switching to atheism!

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2015, 12:04:44 AM »
From a tax efficiency stand point it is tough to beat being a religious charlatan.

+1

Amen.  Literally.

libertarian4321

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2015, 02:27:45 AM »
Second I don't know how any mustachian could knock a guy for amassing wealth. If you had millions you might not live the the same as a hundred thousandnaire


It's one thing to amass wealth by working hard and managing your money wisely.

It's something else altogether to prey upon the weak and stupid who send their rent money to Osteen or any other "prosperity gospel" charlatan. 

Osteen tools around in (yet another) Lear jet while his victims, er, parishioners, can't afford to keep the lights turned on.

Just because he speaks softly, utters soothing platitudes, and wears a permanent pageant smile doesn't make him any less a predator than the other less polished "prosperity gospel" preachers.

I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read of Jesus, I suspect he'd VOMIT if he saw Osteen living the lavish life of an emperor, when a couple of miles from his mega-church, people are jobless, homeless, and hungry.


libertarian4321

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2015, 02:29:36 AM »


I don't dispute that he is charismatic and entertaining and likable.  He's just also a fraud.

That's okay, though.  Houdini was a fraud too, yet people flocked to him despite knowing it.
[/quote]

Joseph Smith, too, and broadly, he was a magician first. If you have charisma and direct it towards religion, great things can happen (to you- wealth beyond compare) and to the people who attend your services.  I'm just saying perhaps it's a good idea to scratch below the surface to make sure the person you follow is what you believe him to be
[/quote]

Jesus, Muhammed, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard.

All very similar characters, preying on the gullible.

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2015, 07:06:14 PM »
 
[/quote]

I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read of Jesus, I suspect he'd VOMIT if he saw Osteen living the lavish life of an emperor, when a couple of miles from his mega-church, people are jobless, homeless, and hungry.

[/quote]

agreed.

Your other post quoting me, I have no memory of what was in that box, but I know for sure, it was not anything supportive of Osteen

Agreed Hubbard, Smith- charlatans. Smith was a magician of sorts before the angel gave him the golden plates that he apparently lost, because when asked to translate them, he would stick his face in a hat with magical stones in it.  He would come up with a piece of parchment with a character and English translation, he would tell that to his helper monkey who would write it down and then magically, the character conveniently disappeared from the parchment.  That 10 million people believe this and all the rest, amazes me. That they believe they can convert anyone who is dead to their religion is sickening.  I feel like I need legal papers to protect me from conversion when dead.  Hubbard, ten times worse. 

I think Jesus, though, himself, if he existed was a man who taught peace, charity, forgiveness, etc. Or he was a composite character. I do not believe (usually) that he was the Son of God and I think the harm being done in his name is sickening, not what he taught and he would VOMIT, as you said, should he see what man has become.

ahoy

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2015, 03:10:01 AM »
I've watched Joel a few times a few years back.  From what I remember, his sermons were uplifting.  I think if he's making loads of money from his books etc, well, I guess he can buy his big old fancy house.  Obviously it would be bad if that money was from his congregation.   Supposedly he doesn't take a salary from his church.   If it was me in his position, I would hope that I would give a large percentage of it away.  who needs a 17,000 sqft house? it's just ridiculous.

There are a lot of churches that stream their sermons online, I try to catch maybe one a week. 

milesdividendmd

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2015, 02:21:45 PM »


I'm no Christian (I'm a man of reason, not a man of faith), but from what I've read....

Just to clarify, faith & reason are not at odds with one another.  Read some St. Thomas Aquinas for more, if interested.  The idea that they don't fit together is on par with claiming left-handedness and playing baseball are incompatible.

You can have faith and make intelligent arguments, that's true.

But faith and reason are often very much in conflict.

Faith, by definition, is the belief in something in the absence of objective evidence in support of your belief, or in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Fundamentalists who believe in a 6000 year old world are an excellent example of faithful believers, and of those who display an absence of reason.
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milesdividendmd

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2015, 05:24:43 PM »
I don't disagree that the above quote is a bit dismissive, and judgemental.

One can simultaneously be a man of faith and a man of reason of course, but perhaps not about the same subject?

Faith and reason do have
An essential conflict and that is that faith by definition stands completely apart from reason.
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firewalker

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2015, 06:45:19 PM »
Can someone who is faithfully dismissive also be reasonably judgemental?

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2015, 07:14:43 PM »
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Everything is based on faith at some point.

I find it interesting that people keep circling his house. Im sure his wife wanted that house. I think he said as much at some point poking fun the way he does. Would you rule out a President of the United States because he drives a Bentley or takes a limo to work? Judging by the Donald I would say no. So then why must our spiritual leaders from whatever faith have to be poor? I don't get that.

Its like the demons come out and say in order to be righteous you have to be a loser. Not true. Im sure every king mentioned in the bible did not live poor. Joseph did not live poor. He lived in Pharaohs palace after prison. Job troubled as he was by destruction was not poor. Not even close. Yet he was clearly a favorite of God. It doesn't matter if it is literal or metaphorical. The message is the same. You don't have to be poor. Don't take advantage of the poor. Help the poor when you can. Got $500 in your pocket and a bum asks for a burger. Go buy him a burger. I understand not giving money for booze but you can buy him a burger. That is if relieving human suffering is worth 5 minutes of your time.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2015, 07:30:02 PM »

Everything is based on faith at some point.


Everything? Really?  Thank God Salk prayed and had faith in that polio vaccine, where would we be now had he not?

Alex, I'll take Science for $1000

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2015, 08:27:59 PM »
Yep. I think Socrates showed repeatedly that when questioned far enough people really don't know what they are talking about. I have found that to be mostly true. Science also said that the Earth was the center of the galaxy. It said the universe was static not expanding. It said bleeding would help cure illness. It changes its mind a lot and tells everyone else they must be eternally accountable for the things they claim. I say that even loving science and my personal saint, Carl Sagan. The man sure did appreciate Gods works even if he had a personal mission against the worlds religions.

I will take Philosophy for 500 Alex
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

sol

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2015, 10:37:48 PM »
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Yes. 

needmyfi

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2015, 07:47:51 AM »
All I know about him is that my wife was invited by a friend to come hear him speak. My wife asked me if I minded her going to see this preacher speak. I told her "no problem, I'll watch the kids." Then she says it costs $30 to attend (or something like that) and we had to put on the brakes. Why does a dude with $40million need working joes to pay for this venue so he can spread the gospel?

My guess is that when you rent a stadium so 50,000 people can come see you its not free. Just guessing.
My guess is at 30 bucks a ticket it doesn't cost 1.5 million bucks either.  I would guess that 5 bucks would easily cover the cost of the venue and pay for his über driver as well

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2015, 11:24:11 AM »
Can anyone say they lived long enough to prove that isotopes decay at the rate we say they do and do not change over time or with the expansion of the universe?

Yes.

+1

short and to the point!

LiseE

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2015, 01:38:03 PM »
Quote
Its like the demons come out and say in order to be righteous you have to be a loser. Not true. Im sure every king mentioned in the bible did not live poor. Joseph did not live poor. He lived in Pharaohs palace after prison. Job troubled as he was by destruction was not poor. Not even close. Yet he was clearly a favorite of God. It doesn't matter if it is literal or metaphorical. The message is the same. You don't have to be poor. Don't take advantage of the poor. Help the poor when you can. Got $500 in your pocket and a bum asks for a burger. Go buy him a burger. I understand not giving money for booze but you can buy him a burger. That is if relieving human suffering is worth 5 minutes of your time.

+1  (well said)

.. thread on joel osteen on it's way to a third page ..

LiseE

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2015, 08:13:46 AM »
" This confident optimism actually opens up gigantic doors for us and creates unimaginable opportunities.  The reason, of course, is not actual magic, but the effect your optimism has on the people around you. People want to hire you, or to help you, or to work for you, because big thinkers are very rare and it’s exciting to be around one. The guaranteed key to a happy (and Rich) life is to have an easy time working with other people. With this confidence, you don’t have to worry about a recession, or a depression, or using gold coins as currency in a post-apocalyptic shanty town, because you’ll always be able to work with other people, build a productive community, and have some good fun with your life. As a side effect, you will accumulate much more money." - MMM in his review of The Magic of Thinking Big

This is EXACTLY the same message that Joel Osteen preaches except the 'magic' in the above quote = God for Christians. 

.. and by the way .. MMM credits this book to completely changing his life ...

Argyle

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2015, 10:35:23 AM »
I'm a little boggled that anyone would think great wealth is appropriate for a devout Christian.  A lot of people have tried to weasel around that - "Couldn't I just be a little bit rich, if I was very religious?  Wouldn't it be okay to have fancy cars and a huge house if I lead other people to Christ?  It would be okay then, right?  And the plane and the expensive things?  If I pray a lot and don't cheat on my wife, I could have a house with three elevators, six bathrooms, and $40 million in the bank, like Joel Osteen, right?"  But come on:

Luke 16:13: "You cannot be the slave of two masters. You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than to the other. You cannot serve God and money." 

Mark 10:23: "Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!'"

Matthew 19:24: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

James 5: 1-3: "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.  Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days."

I don't buy the argument, "He's gotten really good at being rich and devout, so he can get away with it."  People do love trying to make the Bible approve of what they personally want.  But the Bible seems clear to me.  If you don't believe in the Bible, well and good.  But Osteen professes to.

davidw

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2015, 02:08:36 PM »
.. thread on joel osteen on it's way to a third page ..

Because discussions of people's personal and religious beliefs on the internet are always a great idea...

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2015, 01:56:58 AM »
Quote
Because discussions of people's personal and religious beliefs on the internet are always a great idea...

yes people are brutally honest even if it is cowardly and low to hide in anonymity


Quote
I'm a little boggled that anyone would think great wealth is appropriate for a devout Christian.

Not one quote you gave says it can not be done. It says it is hard. Its hard when you have money not to put it first. It took a lot to get it.

What does the Bible say about money:
Mat 25:27 NIV: Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
Romans 13:8 NIV: Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Exodus 22:25 NIV: If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not treat it like a business deal; charge no interest. (God likes ZIRP)
Ezekiel 22:12 NIV: In you are people who accept bribes to shed blood; you take interest and make a profit from the poor. You extort unjust gain from your neighbors. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Luke 16 leading up to your quote: Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
Mat 7:6 NIV: Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Not everyone is worthy of your money. Everyone will not use it wisely. Do not collect debts, do not charge for loans, do not take advantage of the poor, and put your money where it will collect a little interest. Be a good steward of what God has given you. Do not put what he has given you first.

That is the message I see.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2015, 10:31:25 AM »

LOL
Both fall for the same logic trap.  It's called ignoring the graveyard. But Osteen, as a Christian, is flat out wrong.

+1

if he were selling something other than Christ's supposed teachings, I'd have no problem with that, amass as much wealth as you desire. He seems to be a motivational speaker, do that, leave God out of it. 

Plus, there's Matthew 19:24, "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Especially a uber-rich man mega-church leader who charges $30 to attend his show.  Meh, so we only have to deal with him on Earth.  He won't be brushing elbows with Matthew up there, IMHO.  Or who knows, he may be knocking knuckles with God.  Either way, I will be walking in the opposite direction

Argyle

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2015, 01:49:49 PM »
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.  You can say, "Well, Joel and I both have lots of money, but you see we don't love it, so that's okay.  We're just keeping it around.  We like having it, but we don't like it.  If you just read the legal fine print you'll see being filthy rich is okay under narrow circumstances which Joel and I just happen to fulfill."  But if you have more than you need to support yourself (and don't tell me that $40 million is no more than Joel Osteen needs), and you hang onto it, I'd say you love it more than you love Luke 18:22: "When Jesus heard this, He said to him, 'One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'"  It's as if the wealthy say, "Jesus didn't really mean that.  I'm taking the get-out clause."

The capacity of people to believe that the Bible approves of things like wealth, ostentious public prayers, and all manner of self-serving actions, seems limitless. 

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2015, 06:11:29 PM »
Quote
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.

Context. Your context is unclear. Pulling one line doesn't mean much. Did Solomon give all his money to the poor? Yes or No.

Did Jesus not say "The poor you will have always." Yes or No

Does it not also say that he can be trusted with little can be trusted with a lot? Yes or No

Does it not say that you should be a good steward with the masters money?

Going back to "my translation of the translated scriptures from 2000 years ago is absolutely correct", did you read that passage from the original Greek? Are you a history major to put it into context? Does it literally mean trying to shove a camel through a sewing needle eye, or does it mean camel hair through a sewing needle eye, or does it mean take a camel through a geographical area called the eye of a needle that was a difficult path? Do you know? I have heard all three. All three were certain that "their interpretation of interpreted scriptures from 2000 years ago was absolutely correct"

I suppose you want Joel to ignore this passage:
Mat 6:2 NIV: So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:40:19 PM by mrpercentage »
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2015, 06:34:30 PM »
whatever floats your boat then, if you want to be a Christian who supports a  megalomaniacal man like Osteen, who won't let his "charity" be examined by groups like Give.org, that serve to help consumers make sure they are giving to an up and up charity, have at it. If you honestly believe the New Testament, not the Old, says you should collect wealth beyond measure and what was that post, give $5 cheeseburgers to the homeless, so you and God are copacetic, go for it. If you want to be that person who has many times more than one man needs, fine.  Just don't expect a pat on the head for what a great Christian you are from others, although such a person probably does not care. And if you justify accumulating wealth as being taught by, pick your group, say the ancient Greeks, and that helps you sleep at night, then you are truly blessed. That you can sleep soundly knowing of the poverty, the starvation, lack of drinking water, the violence against women and children, etc. all throughout this world, then you are a lucky man.  But to say you are at all in Christ's image is disgusting.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:44:52 PM by FLA »

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2015, 06:48:27 PM »
I don't see what about "You cannot love both God and money" is unclear.  You can say, "Well, Joel and I both have lots of money, but you see we don't love it, so that's okay.  We're just keeping it around.  We like having it, but we don't like it.  If you just read the legal fine print you'll see being filthy rich is okay under narrow circumstances which Joel and I just happen to fulfill."  But if you have more than you need to support yourself (and don't tell me that $40 million is no more than Joel Osteen needs), and you hang onto it, I'd say you love it more than you love Luke 18:22: "When Jesus heard this, He said to him, 'One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'"  It's as if the wealthy say, "Jesus didn't really mean that.  I'm taking the get-out clause."

The capacity of people to believe that the Bible approves of things like wealth, ostentious public prayers, and all manner of self-serving actions, seems limitless.

+1 

even if you take the entire Bible out of the equation and snap your WWJD rubber bracelet a few times and concentrate really hard on what would he do? And you still hold these beliefs, good for you, but to me, you are deluded

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2015, 06:59:20 PM »
Well brother all fall short the glory of God. There are none that are righteous, no not one. I think Paul said that. I could be wrong.

I think (Im qualifying this statement) that God judges on a sliding scale. To those given much, much is expected.

The mean in the United States is $28,000 a year. I suppose while raising kids you think they should tithe 10% and give whatever is left to the homeless. Ironically they are probably more generous on a percentage basis then most who push giving money to the poor. The average (numbers bled down from the top earners) is $44,000 a year. I guess they are rich with two kids right. They should give it all to the poor. Oh wait what about billionaires? Well Bill Gates does in fact give a ton to the poor. Most extremely wealthy people do. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe God blesses them because he knows what they will do with it. Maybe its just a human trait that says you can only have so much before you start feeling guilty.

Either way, I have never seen Joel ask for someone to tithe. I have never seen him ask for someone to charge a seed to someones credit card. Joel is not what some other televangelists are.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich. The fact that the bible has been twisted to steal people wealth is disgusting. Really disgusting because some of the best fall for that argument when they could have had years moderately helping the poor they instead threw it all away. That is sad.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2015, 07:07:47 PM »
For the doubters, Mel Gibson said it best.

https://youtu.be/27qUO8_9uT0
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

Riff

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2015, 07:31:13 PM »
... who charges $30 to attend his show. 

I've seen this a few times in this thread, that it costs $30 to attend his church.  I've never been there, but my wife went a couple of years ago and said that it was free.  Also, from his church's website: "There is no fee to attend our church services, and free parking is provided."  https://www.lakewoodchurch.com/Pages/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions.aspx


FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2015, 07:43:33 PM »
Well brother all fall short the glory of God. There are none that are righteous, no not one. I think Paul said that. I could be wrong.

I think (Im qualifying this statement) that God judges on a sliding scale. To those given much, much is expected.

The mean in the United States is $28,000 a year. I suppose while raising kids you think they should tithe 10% and give whatever is left to the homeless. Ironically they are probably more generous on a percentage basis then most who push giving money to the poor. The average (numbers bled down from the top earners) is $44,000 a year. I guess they are rich with two kids right. They should give it all to the poor. Oh wait what about billionaires? Well Bill Gates does in fact give a ton to the poor. Most extremely wealthy people do. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe God blesses them because he knows what they will do with it. Maybe its just a human trait that says you can only have so much before you start feeling guilty.

Either way, I have never seen Joel ask for someone to tithe. I have never seen him ask for someone to charge a seed to someones credit card. Joel is not what some other televangelists are.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich. The fact that the bible has been twisted to steal people wealth is disgusting. Really disgusting because some of the best fall for that argument when they could have had years moderately helping the poor they instead threw it all away. That is sad.

There is nothing wrong with being responsibly rich, whatever that means. However, a televangelist, preaching God's word, and profiting hugely from it in tv and book deals, whether the seats are free or cost $30, whatever.  That is not Christ-like unless you have a very different view of what Christ taught, even Christ as a man, not the Son of God. If you took Osteen out and magically dropped Christ in, do you really think Christ would live the life Osteen has chosen?

I cannot find a figure of the amout Osteen donates. So how is he doing God’s will with his proceeds from preaching his word? I think a $30 ticket price is asking quite a bit, especially when you conceal what you do for the less fortunate. Others say the seats are free.  I have no idea where the truth lies with this man. 

I respect Bill Gates and his philanthropy, what he gives is not concealed, he has done wonders with his Foundation, too many to list.  What has Osteen done?  He will not commit and I don’t think it’s because one should not brag of how they help others.  I don’t think he does it in any meaningful way or we would surely know about it. He has a "charity" that he does not want a group like Give.org to examine, that speaks volumes.  And he has said he visits the sick occasionally in a Houston hospital.  Boy, it's hard keeping up with Gates, you have to actually do stuff, donate money, donate your time to his projects.  Those Houston hospital visits just wear him out.

I have to stop talking about Osteen, so I can enjoy the rest of my evening not thinking about what constitutes a “good” Christian, and a “good” man.  As Justice Stewart said it, "I know it when I see it."

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2015, 07:57:49 PM »
even if you take the entire Bible out of the equation and snap your WWJD rubber bracelet a few times and concentrate really hard on what would he do? And you still hold these beliefs, good for you, but to me, you are deluded

So its not Joel you have an issue with. You don't believe and issues with those who do. Thats cool, as long as we are clear about that.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2015, 08:11:02 PM »
how do you get that I don't believe in Jesus?  I was being facetious. I do not believe that men like Osteen deserve respect from the religious community, he did not even graduate from a school of Divinity.  I worked with wonderful chaplains in Hospice, all had been to divinity school, 3 from Yale, years of extra schooling to make a very modest salary easing the suffering of the dying.  Pick any one of them and they could run theological circles around Osteen. I do not believe in a man who makes preaching religion more about us, than about God.  This has been said of him many times.

I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit and God, the Holy Trinity.  I do not believe in men like Osteen claiming to be religious leaders. 

Fight with me alone, I am done for the night. 

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2015, 08:33:05 PM »
Judge not lest ye be judged as ye have judged.

That is one of the most Christian rules I know. It is often violated. I am not perfect but I have been through the fire with the bible. I will bring up objections hard as steel. I earnestly sought God with all my heart a few years. I went into anti Christian forums and took the furnace full blast. Most in there are very knowledgable ex-Christians. They don't pull punches. (not recommended if you like peace and joy in your heart and want to keep your faith)


There is a reason Socrates was poisoned you know. Knowledge exposed is little indeed. That includes me by the way. I don't think God wants us to have all the answers. Yet I still find myself believing, just not in any know-it-all church. I want no part of that, or those who claim God needs my money.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:36:39 PM by mrpercentage »
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

LiseE

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2015, 01:19:26 PM »
Quote
he did not even graduate from a school of Divinity

that doesn't matter at all ... if God wants to use you he will .. I bet that those of you bashing him here haven't spent much time listening to him speak.  I for one thought he was all an act (unfortunately you cannot be a religious person on TV and not have that connotation immediately) but the more I listened the more I liked his uplifting message and optimism.  Only difference is that he gives the credit to God.  I listen to him quite a bit on my way to and from work and I can honestly say it puts me in a better mind frame to start and end my day.  I've never heard him ask for money .. never .. not once.

Lastly .. there are many people in the bible that had God's favor.  King David, King Solomon .. Lazarus was a dear friend of Jesus's and he was a wealthy man.  It's not about the money or the material things we possess .. it's about the priority we put on it ... you cannot worship/serve two masters. 

OK .. lastly (really) I would be happier about it if Joel gave away most of his money but I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

sol

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2015, 03:16:27 PM »
I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 04:09:34 PM by sol »

milesdividendmd

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2015, 03:18:53 PM »

I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.

Beautifully argued Sol.
I can teach you to play the miles game in 30 days.  http://www.travelmiles101.com/travel-rewards-course-registration.  (A free course by mustachians for mustachians)

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »
Nobody knows how much he gives away but they really want to know so they can judge him. They want to determine if he is a good Christian. I thought God was supposed to do that.

People like clear cut rules so they can say I did this and I did that. I am worthy and they are not. Where is grace in that? I thought it was by grace we are redeemed.

Would you approach someone is the grocery store and tell them their child is not worthy of them because of x. I think you might get punched in face? How is it different with God
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

sol

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2015, 06:53:44 PM »
Nobody knows how much he gives away but they really want to know so they can judge him. They want to determine if he is a good Christian. I thought God was supposed to do that.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

How about we all just agree that the afterlife will sort its own problems out, and here in this life we should maybe try to address ours.  No more of this "he'll get his in the hereafter" nonsense when he can get his right here and now.  Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2015, 08:00:53 PM »

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.


Excuse the edits, but I wanted to get to the meat of the argument.

How is that? Lets review

People on here have claimed that Joel does not give to the poor and insinuated that he unrightfully takes advantage of the poor. Thats a serious accusation. A major Ad Hominem indeed. Is there any proof of this? No.

Has any been presented? He doesn't share his financial statements. Hmm, what exactly does he have to gain from doing this. More criticism of hey it should be in this charity instead of that or it should be more.

Honest criticism is by its nature honest-- not false accusation without proof.

Bill Gates gives a lot to the poor but drives $100,000 porche. Is that justified? I bet Joel could give half away and still have what he has. Half is not enough, no.. show me where it says that. If you mention the passage where Jesus is referring to a specific man does that mean you should pick up your bed room mattress and walk too? Serious question.

On the Sermon of the Mount-- does he say give all your money to the poor?

When someone makes a claim that they know its supposed to be a certain way and they want to throw the bible at me-- I say bring it on. I would love to learn something new.

You mentioned the afterlife

“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.”

Psalm 146:4

“The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10

Thats a Jehova Witnes argument by the way. I am familiar with them and the Catholics, the Baptists, the Mormons, the Scientologists, and Zen Buddhists. Been to each church and temple except the Mormons. I forgot to mention that my wife comes from a jewish family, I have been to a synagog, and that my some of my German ancestry claims to be Ashkenazic Jew.

Im not sure the bible is clear on this but if it comforts you that your ancestors look over you then I say it can't be disproven either. The bible is unclear. I think it is wise to steer around areas where the bible is unclear and beware of additions of man that ask for money. Man has always found a way to make the most despicable things profitable. I realize what I just said could horrify most Christians. I am not most. I will tell you I am certain when Jesus comes down and shakes my hand. That was doubting Thomas' position and if Christ didn't find fault with it why would I? I do believe in Christ. I will not profess that I know exactly what he wants. I think Joel is wise to steer around many of these muddy waters. If God wanted them to be clear they would be.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 08:14:30 PM by mrpercentage »
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

Telecaster

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2015, 08:38:30 PM »
You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

mrpercentage

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2015, 08:43:48 PM »
You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Touché
May the force be with you.
absolute truth... prison guard that has seen shanks does not makes 45k a year managing bullshit tech that was outsourced for what?.... cheaper tech and less taxes... probably

LiseE

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2015, 02:10:38 PM »
Quote
This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Not true and I only meant that God is the ultimate judge so why waste precious energy judging each other.   If there is only this life I would still live the same way I do as a Christian .. treating people as I would like to be treated and striving to make the world a better place. 

You make it sound like for those of us that believe in the after life, we are simply "earning our way" to heaven or in fear of God's judgement when we get there ... not so ... you can't earn your way to heaven.   

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2015, 05:01:16 AM »
I really can't waste my energy even caring about this ... Joel will have to face God and make a full account of his life .. as will I.

This seems like a classic case of religion convincing people to abandon their concerns in this life because they are preparing for the next one.

Here's an alternative theory for you.  This life is the only one you will ever get, so consider putting your energy into making the world a better place today, rather than ignoring current injustices because you're hoping for magical retribution in the afterlife.  You have the power to do good now, and a just god would reward you for that, so don't let yourself be tricked into ignoring real present evils.  Evil men use religion to convince others to stand by idle while they take advantage of the poor and helpless.

+1  especially the last 2 sentences

FLA

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2015, 05:05:45 AM »
.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.
[/quote]

and this, Sol's on a roll

jinga nation

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2015, 01:25:13 PM »
.

Did you read my above post about people using religion to avoid/discourage honest criticism?

Stop using religion as an excuse for misbehavior.

Yes, I freely admit to being judgmental of people like Osteen, who's actions are in stark contrast to his message and professed beliefs.  You don't need to believe in any ancient texts to recognize hypocrisy when it puts itself on television.

and this, Sol's on a roll
[/quote]
When a preacher's words and actions are based on a text written by another man claiming it is the word of a supernatural power, there's no rock to stand on. If that power was supernatural, why didn't it create the paper, the ink, and transcribing its thoughts to text? Or just etch it in rock using fire/laser/lightning power?
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sirdoug007

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Re: Joel Osteen
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2015, 09:43:58 AM »
Just saw this compilation of posts from a comedian trolling Osteen's facebook page as "Joel Oldsteen."  Friggin' hilarious!!

http://the-daily.buzz/preacher-facebook/