Author Topic: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?  (Read 12097 times)

TFrugal

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Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« on: May 03, 2016, 10:27:47 AM »
Hello all,

Looking to make a small investment in a programmable thermostat for obvious reasons.  After a bit of research, I am still blown away by the number of options.  I will likely be purchasing off Amazon where I see models from $25 to $250 and up.  Which one does the MMM community support?

A few (potentially) relevant facts:

--Live in a northern state, so pipe freezing is a real possibility
--The Mrs. works part-time and the days change weekly, so there is no consistent 5 day work week schedule for us

Lastly, from the research I did do, some complained that models that had a range of 1 degree constantly turned their furnace on and off all day which is definitely not a good thing.  Also, is a wifi model a must?

Thanks!

Jack

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 10:35:20 AM »
A ~$25 7-day thermostat would be fine. IMO, Wi-Fi is a must-avoid, as I would consider it to be a security risk.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 10:37:24 AM by Jack »

Daley

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 10:47:57 AM »
Networked home automation is oversold, a serious security risk, and unnecessary IMHO.

I'm currently partial to the LuxPro PSPU721T.

Good price ($75), optional outdoor temperature sensor, adjustable temperature swing and cycle rate, seven day programming, hold temperature override, vacation mode, dual-stage heating support, energy watch (kilowatt) meter, filter reminder... all the useful bells and whistles. You can get by with a cheaper, simpler programmable thermostat, but if you use dual-source heating with a heatpump and want to maximize efficiency or want to adjust temperature swing to reduce or limit running frequency, this is your thermostat. Smart enough to optimize, dumb enough to not pose a security risk.

TFrugal

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 10:55:49 AM »
A ~$25 7-day thermostat would be fine. IMO, Wi-Fi is a must-avoid, as I would consider it to be a security risk.

Can you expand on what the risk is and how it is different from using a regular password-encrypted home wifi network?  I typically use a VPN while doing any financial transactions, as well.

Jack

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 11:19:41 AM »
A ~$25 7-day thermostat would be fine. IMO, Wi-Fi is a must-avoid, as I would consider it to be a security risk.

Can you expand on what the risk is and how it is different from using a regular password-encrypted home wifi network?  I typically use a VPN while doing any financial transactions, as well.

Typical residential Wi-fi thermostats (Nest, etc.) aren't designed to be merely controlled over your LAN. Instead, they're designed to punch through your firewall and be controlled over the Internet, via the manufacturer's website. That has several implications:
  • Even in normal operation you lose your privacy because the manufacturer knows the thermostat's schedule (which implies that the manufacturer knows when you're home or not).
  • If the manufacturer got hacked, the database could fall into the hands of burglars (obviously the hacker and burglar aren't likely to be the same person, but that sort of information, similar to credit card numbers and passwords, gets bought and sold between criminals all the time.)
  • If you and/or the manufacturer don't keep the device's security flaws patched (and it's a damn thermostat, so let's be honest, those flaws won't get patched), a hacker could use the thermostat itself to bypass your router's firewall and get in to your LAN. This applies to both the cloud service connection (host layers, over the internet) and the Wi-Fi itself (media layers, via wardriving).
There's also the issue that a plain old low-tech thermostat is guaranteed to work until it physically wears out, but newfangled "Internet of things" bullshit can be bricked by the manufacturer with little notice and no recourse.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 11:28:45 AM by Jack »

Jack

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 11:28:18 AM »
Incidentally, I'm no luddite -- I have no problem with "smart home" tech in general, and I'd love to install it in my house. However, the only acceptable systems would be ones entirely under my control, not the manufacturer's. Things that meet that requirement are very uncommon in the residential/consumer market (both because such a system would be less idiot-proof and because these days, every goddamned company wants to suck up all your data so they can sell it to marketers). This might be a reasonable option, but I haven't looked in to it -- and even if it's good, it's most likely expensive enough to make it anti-mustachian compared to a $25 thermostat anyway.

AdiposeFinn

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 09:22:07 PM »
Networked home automation is oversold, a serious security risk, and unnecessary IMHO.

Agree 100% and don't forget they are expensive too. Everyone seems to think that the Nest thermostat is a magic device that will save them money. It will only save money if it is turns the HVAC off more than it was off previously. It is just silly.

Cyaphas

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2016, 03:47:20 AM »
Networked home automation is oversold, a serious security risk, and unnecessary IMHO.

Agree 100% and don't forget they are expensive too. Everyone seems to think that the Nest thermostat is a magic device that will save them money. It will only save money if it is turns the HVAC off more than it was off previously. It is just silly.

I think it was somewhere on this board someone mentioned they really liked the motion detection feature on the Nest installed in one of their vacation rentals/homes. They could remotely see when the tenants had arrived and when they'd left. Not technically surveillance but still handy. It also saved them a significant amount of power account of the off when no motion detected or off after X time. They never had to visit the unit to make adjustments.

Spork

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Re: Can you recommend a programmable thermostat?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2016, 06:41:30 AM »
A ~$25 7-day thermostat would be fine. IMO, Wi-Fi is a must-avoid, as I would consider it to be a security risk.

Can you expand on what the risk is and how it is different from using a regular password-encrypted home wifi network?  I typically use a VPN while doing any financial transactions, as well.

Typical residential Wi-fi thermostats (Nest, etc.) aren't designed to be merely controlled over your LAN. Instead, they're designed to punch through your firewall and be controlled over the Internet, via the manufacturer's website. That has several implications:
  • Even in normal operation you lose your privacy because the manufacturer knows the thermostat's schedule (which implies that the manufacturer knows when you're home or not).
  • If the manufacturer got hacked, the database could fall into the hands of burglars (obviously the hacker and burglar aren't likely to be the same person, but that sort of information, similar to credit card numbers and passwords, gets bought and sold between criminals all the time.)
  • If you and/or the manufacturer don't keep the device's security flaws patched (and it's a damn thermostat, so let's be honest, those flaws won't get patched), a hacker could use the thermostat itself to bypass your router's firewall and get in to your LAN. This applies to both the cloud service connection (host layers, over the internet) and the Wi-Fi itself (media layers, via wardriving).
There's also the issue that a plain old low-tech thermostat is guaranteed to work until it physically wears out, but newfangled "Internet of things" bullshit can be bricked by the manufacturer with little notice and no recourse.

Just to add one thing to Jack's list... (It was implied, but let's make it explicit.)

Most of these types of devices create a back door into your home network via some sort of reverse shell.  In other words, it is extremely likely the manufacturer can log into a device on your network to do debugging/maintenance.  To make it worse: they don't generally make a system with individual keys for every device.  They make a system where they can log into ANY of a device -- usually from a central trusted location.

This means
* You have to trust every person that works there.  This isn't all that hard.  They're likely just doing their job
* You have to trust that their security is such that they will never be used as a pivot point and made into an attack vector.  This one is a little harder to trust.

Once someone is sitting on a device inside your network, it's pretty likely they can get pretty decent access to your personal data.

The bottom line is: If you do want to buy into home automation, you probably need to seriously think your home networking.  The old idea of a simple, single zoned firewall with a flat network behind it is seriously outdated.  You are going to need either multiple firewalls or less "consumer grade" firewalls -- that handle multiple zones and rules between zones.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!