Transferring 401k from Prudential to Vanguard?

[FIRE me]

I FIRE'd three weeks ago. Today I got a call from Prudential that went to voice mail, saying I need to call them so them so they can “take care of my account.”

No doubt they will try to sell me an annuity, but I am not interested.

I checked my 401k account, and it does now show my status as “Terminated - Payment Deferred.”

So I am assuming that it is now ok to start the transfer process to Vanguard.

I know that this is a routine transaction, but it isn't routine to me, and my 401k is the largest part of my net worth. So I don't want any stress inducing screw ups or delays with the transfer.

What is the best way to do this? I already have a IRA with Vanguard. Should I try a roll in through the Vanguard website, or will it go quicker and smoother if I call a Vanguard CSR and get some hand holding?

[dandarc]

Just call Vanguard.  They'll know exactly what to do.

[El Marinero]

I found Vanguard to be very helpful doing a similar transaction some years ago.

Expect it to take a few days.  Try not to worry about market movements during that time.  Up or down, it's just a blip and won't make much of a difference in the long run.

[FIRE me]

Just call Vanguard.  They'll know exactly what to do.

Thanks, I will call Vanguard first thing tomorrow morning.

[FIRE me]

I found Vanguard to be very helpful doing a similar transaction some years ago.

Expect it to take a few days.  Try not to worry about market movements during that time.  Up or down, it's just a blip and won't make much of a difference in the long run.

Yes, since I am buying it is a bit of a bummer that VTSAX is at an all time high. On the good side VBTLX is down from its peak. I'm also going to invest 10 to 15% in VGHCX which is well down from its peak.

[FIRE me]

Just call Vanguard.  They'll know exactly what to do.

Thanks, I will call Vanguard first thing tomorrow morning.

Well, that was a cluster fuck.

Vanguard kept me on hold for 30 fucking minutes. Then they informed me that Prudential will not roll in to Vanguard, and I would have to ask Prudential to mail me a paper check through to US mail. Or possibly I could have the check mailed to Vanguard.

So I called Prudential and they confirmed what Vanguard told me with one exception. Unfortunately, I had neglected to get the Vanguard address to mail the check to.

The exception was that Prudential told me that they could get all the info from Vanguard by way of a three way conference call. 

At this point I'm pissed off at Prudential for refusing to do this electronically, and disappointed in Vanguard's customer service for not offering to do the conference call after I waited 30 minutes on hold.

[dandarc]

Huh.  Went very smooth for me a year or two ago when I rolled over from an old Prudential IRA to Vanguard.  Maybe it was because I had prior rolled over to a Prudential IRA, so it wasn't coming from a 401K?

[FIRE me]

Huh.  Went very smooth for me a year or two ago when I rolled over from an old Prudential IRA to Vanguard.  Maybe it was because I had prior rolled over to a Prudential IRA, so it wasn't coming from a 401K?

Could be. Anyway, glad it went good for you. Was the transfer electronic?

Maybe Prudential is getting greedier and doing what they can to discourage transfers.

[dandarc]

Huh.  Went very smooth for me a year or two ago when I rolled over from an old Prudential IRA to Vanguard.  Maybe it was because I had prior rolled over to a Prudential IRA, so it wasn't coming from a 401K?

Could be. Anyway, glad it went good for you. Was the transfer electronic?

Maybe Prudential is getting greedier and doing what they can to discourage transfers.

It had proprietary funds (don't get a Prudential IRA), so the process was liquidate - Prudential mails check to Vanguard.  Was out of market for 1 or 2 weeks, but I didn't have to do much other than call Vanguard and electronically sign what they told me to. 

American Funds was a bit more involved - they required a "Medallion Signature Guarantee" which I had never heard of before, but it turns out it is just getting your bank to witness your signature and stamp a form.  Sort of like a Notary, but they are actually guaranteeing the transaction, so tends to be your local bank that will do this for you.

[Spork]

Just call Vanguard.  They'll know exactly what to do.

Thanks, I will call Vanguard first thing tomorrow morning.

Well, that was a cluster fuck.

Vanguard kept me on hold for 30 fucking minutes. Then they informed me that Prudential will not roll in to Vanguard, and I would have to ask Prudential to mail me a paper check through to US mail. Or possibly I could have the check mailed to Vanguard.

So I called Prudential and they confirmed what Vanguard told me with one exception. Unfortunately, I had neglected to get the Vanguard address to mail the check to.

The exception was that Prudential told me that they could get all the info from Vanguard by way of a three way conference call. 

At this point I'm pissed off at Prudential for refusing to do this electronically, and disappointed in Vanguard's customer service for not offering to do the conference call after I waited 30 minutes on hold.

Strange.  I've rolled 3 of them (not from Prudential, though) and every single time Vanguard started off with a 3 way call.

[Another Reader]

Vanguard lost the money rolled over from a 457 plan with Prudential for a month.  Prudential did their part by mail, no three party phone call.  They were relatively prompt about it, too.  It was in Vanguard's system somewhere, but they just could not find the transaction or get the money into the Vanguard account.  Kept telling me they had no record of receiving the money.  Horrible service from Vanguard the entire time.

The only reason I used Vanguard was to buy Wellington with this money.  I have very little use for Vanguard, its' customer service, or its' website.  You can buy equal or better index funds and ETF's from Fidelity for the same price and get much better service.

[FIRE me]

Just call Vanguard.  They'll know exactly what to do.

Thanks, I will call Vanguard first thing tomorrow morning.

Well, that was a cluster fuck.

Vanguard kept me on hold for 30 fucking minutes. Then they informed me that Prudential will not roll in to Vanguard, and I would have to ask Prudential to mail me a paper check through to US mail. Or possibly I could have the check mailed to Vanguard.

So I called Prudential and they confirmed what Vanguard told me with one exception. Unfortunately, I had neglected to get the Vanguard address to mail the check to.

The exception was that Prudential told me that they could get all the info from Vanguard by way of a three way conference call. 

At this point I'm pissed off at Prudential for refusing to do this electronically, and disappointed in Vanguard's customer service for not offering to do the conference call after I waited 30 minutes on hold.

Strange.  I've rolled 3 of them (not from Prudential, though) and every single time Vanguard started off with a 3 way call.

That's what I'm going to request when I call Vanguard back on Monday.

[FIRE me]

Vanguard lost the money rolled over from a 457 plan with Prudential for a month.  Prudential did their part by mail, no three party phone call.  They were relatively prompt about it, too.  It was in Vanguard's system somewhere, but they just could not find the transaction or get the money into the Vanguard account.  Kept telling me they had no record of receiving the money.  Horrible service from Vanguard the entire time.

The only reason I used Vanguard was to buy Wellington with this money.  I have very little use for Vanguard, its' customer service, or its' website.  You can buy equal or better index funds and ETF's from Fidelity for the same price and get much better service.

I guess until you reach the $1 Million Flagship level, you are basically small potatoes.

Still, in Vanguard's defense, the Vanguard CSR emphasized that certain information had to be on the check, and it had to mailed to the right address. Maybe your check wasn't made out to the right department, with your Vanguard account number and your SS# on the check?

[AdrianC]

The only reason I used Vanguard was to buy Wellington with this money.  I have very little use for Vanguard, its' customer service, or its' website.  You can buy equal or better index funds and ETF's from Fidelity for the same price and get much better service.

Funny how different people see things. For me Vanguard has been great. No issues on their part during two account transfers to Vanguard. Website works fine.

Fidelity though...I still have to send a check by snail-mail to fund my Fidelity solo 401k (seriously, no electronic transfer is available), and on the website they refer to it as a "Keogh". Fidelity also recently changed their online interface with Quicken and I can no longer download transactions automatically.

I'm just about ready to move my Fidelity assets to Vanguard.

[Another Reader]

Vanguard lost the money rolled over from a 457 plan with Prudential for a month.  Prudential did their part by mail, no three party phone call.  They were relatively prompt about it, too.  It was in Vanguard's system somewhere, but they just could not find the transaction or get the money into the Vanguard account.  Kept telling me they had no record of receiving the money.  Horrible service from Vanguard the entire time.

The only reason I used Vanguard was to buy Wellington with this money.  I have very little use for Vanguard, its' customer service, or its' website.  You can buy equal or better index funds and ETF's from Fidelity for the same price and get much better service.

I guess until you reach the $1 Million Flagship level, you are basically small potatoes.

Still, in Vanguard's defense, the Vanguard CSR emphasized that certain information had to be on the check, and it had to mailed to the right address. Maybe your check wasn't made out to the right department, with your Vanguard account number and your SS# on the check?

I followed Vanguard's instructions, filled out Vanguard's forms, and sent them certified to Prudential.  The money left Prudential within a week.  After a week more, I called Vanguard.  No record.  A week later, no record. The phone calls were escalated.  All kinds of bizarre ideas about what "could have" happened.  Once the money finally appeared, it was possible to track the process.  They had received the money a few days after Prudential mailed it.  They just did not do anything with it and the customer interface folks could not see they had it.  Internal processes and tracking are really, really poor.

Trust me, having a million at Vanguard gets you very little.  Much better service at Fidelity with the same amount of money.

[FIRE me]

I plan to go with the wisdom of the crowd here at MMM and use Vanguard.

Based on your recommendation, I did poke about on the Fidelity site looking for the Fidelity equivalent of VTSAX and I did not find it. Could you post a link to it?

[RWD]

I plan to go with the wisdom of the crowd here at MMM and use Vanguard.

Based on your recommendation, I did poke about on the Fidelity site looking for the Fidelity equivalent of VTSAX and I did not find it. Could you post a link to it?

FSTVX is the equivalent, I believe.

[FIRE me]

I plan to go with the wisdom of the crowd here at MMM and use Vanguard.

Based on your recommendation, I did poke about on the Fidelity site looking for the Fidelity equivalent of VTSAX and I did not find it. Could you post a link to it?

FSTVX is the equivalent, I believe.

Thanks, RWD.

[FIRE me]

I finally got the transfer underway. But there were a few snags.

Today I called just a few minutes after 8AM, when both Vanguard and Prudential customer service opens. Vanguard's public number (the one you can see on their website before you log in, 800 962-5209) rang busy and then hung up. So I try it again, same busy signal and then a hang up.

So I tried 877 662-7447 and got through right away, and there was no time spent on hold.

I explained that I wanted a 3 way call with Prudential to roll in my 401k. The CSR said she would just put a .pdf with the required info in my message center, and I could call Prudential myself.

I again told her I would rather do a conference call, and she said they don't do that. At that point I was rather disappointed, and Fidelity was starting to look better.

But I went ahead and called Prudential. It went pretty smooth but the Prudential CSR refused to let me forward the Vanguard info .pdf file to her by email (I had the email ready to go and just needed an address), saying it had to be done by phone. Seemed to me that “by phone” is just an opportunity for introducing errors.

Prudential charges me $35 to print and mail the check. What a racket.

Now I get to start the 2 to 3 week waiting period where I get to hope that the Prudential CSR got the Vanguard address right, and put the right information on the check, and that the US Mail doesn't lose it, and that Vanguard manages to eventually properly credit my account.

WTF year is this, 2017 or 1917? All that is missing is the Pony Express and smoke signals.

Seriously, signing up for Obamacare was a piece of cake compared to this simple single transfer of money.

[Another Reader]

Like I said, Prudential did their part.  It was the poor internal systems at Vangard that were the problem.  I did not have to pay a dime for a Prudential check.  Of course, I paid for it in their high fees and lousy fund choices, but at least the back office worked properly.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

One important note for others in a similar situation:  make sure you don't get a check in the mail.  It's okay to have Vanguard receive the funds.  But any check you personally receive is a distribution, even when you say you're rolling it over.  So maybe you have a $20,000 Traditional 401(k) and they take $6,000 out for taxes & penalty, and send you a $14,000 check.  If you deposit that and nothing else, you've made a $6,000 early distribution.  The "fix" is to come up with $6,000 yourself and deposit that along with the $14,000.  Yeah it's lame and it's unfair, but that's what happens.  So avoid being the direct recipient of a 401(k) check.  If you can setup a "trustee to trustee transfer", that avoids the problem.

[FIRE me]

One important note for others in a similar situation:  make sure you don't get a check in the mail.  It's okay to have Vanguard receive the funds.  But any check you personally receive is a distribution, even when you say you're rolling it over.  So maybe you have a $20,000 Traditional 401(k) and they take $6,000 out for taxes & penalty, and send you a $14,000 check.  If you deposit that and nothing else, you've made a $6,000 early distribution.  The "fix" is to come up with $6,000 yourself and deposit that along with the $14,000.  Yeah it's lame and it's unfair, but that's what happens.  So avoid being the direct recipient of a 401(k) check.  If you can setup a "trustee to trustee transfer", that avoids the problem.

Thanks for the tip. I had heard of that pitfall.

Although I think the IRS gives you a certain number of days to deposit the check into a qualified plan, it is no accident that I made certain that I will never possess the check. Trustee to trustee, just as you say.

Prudential was quite willing to mail the check to me, in fact that was the default choice.

[MisterTwoForty]

Sounds like you are making this difficult on yourself.

Have Prudential make out a check to Vanguard FBO yourself.  Have them then mail it to you.  You then fill out the Vanguard roll over paperwork and send it in with the check to Vanguard.  In a few days, the transaction will post at Vanguard.

Ive done this same thing multiple times, no conference call needed and always had the check mailed to me then I forward it.

[FIRE me]

Sounds like you are making this difficult on yourself.

Have Prudential make out a check to Vanguard FBO yourself.  Have them then mail it to you.  You then fill out the Vanguard roll over paperwork and send it in with the check to Vanguard.  In a few days, the transaction will post at Vanguard.

Ive done this same thing multiple times, no conference call needed and always had the check mailed to me then I forward it.

Glad it worked for you.

[risky4me]

Have Prudential make out a check to Vanguard FBO yourself.  Have them then mail it to you.  You then fill out the Vanguard roll over paperwork and send it in with the check to Vanguard.  In a few days, the transaction will post at Vanguard.

Ive done this same thing multiple times, no conference call needed and always had the check mailed to me then I forward it.

I did a rollover to Vanguard and it went pretty smoothly. It is nerve wracking because the money falls off the radar at the sender, and days to go by before it is all received and registered in at Vanguard. Just expect it to take a few days and you wont be as anxious when it does.........

[Livewell]

Have Prudential make out a check to Vanguard FBO yourself.  Have them then mail it to you.  You then fill out the Vanguard roll over paperwork and send it in with the check to Vanguard.  In a few days, the transaction will post at Vanguard.

Ive done this same thing multiple times, no conference call needed and always had the check mailed to me then I forward it.

I did a rollover to Vanguard and it went pretty smoothly. It is nerve wracking because the money falls off the radar at the sender, and days to go by before it is all received and registered in at Vanguard. Just expect it to take a few days and you wont be as anxious when it does.........

I've done the same.   They just don't make it easy.  Vanguard can assist, but it requires Fidelity to do something they don't really want to do.

That's why it feels more like 1917 than 2017.   :^)

Just stay at it, then don't ever think about it again!

[FIRE me]

I've done the same.   They just don't make it easy.  Vanguard can assist, but it requires Fidelity to do something they don't really want to do.

That's why it feels more like 1917 than 2017.   :^)

Just stay at it, then don't ever think about it again!

The money arrived at Vanguard today. Only three days, that was a lot faster than I was expecting. It shows as in my account but pending, so I guess one more business day before I can move it to my selected asset allocation. Which will be VTSAX 70%, VBTLX 15%, and VGHCX 15%.

[FIRE me]

Definitely liking Vanguard so far. Two days invested, and I've made $1,130.

[Exflyboy]

One consideration is to check your State laws regarding litigation protection if you are rolling a 401k into a TIRA.

Federal law protects 401ks and pensions (at least to some degree) where as IRA's come under State protection and a few states leave IRA funds wide open to lawsuits.

Here is a list I found  http://moranknobel.com/news/State_Laws_Protecting_IRAs.pdf

[FIRE me]

One consideration is to check your State laws regarding litigation protection if you are rolling a 401k into a TIRA.

Federal law protects 401ks and pensions (at least to some degree) where as IRA's come under State protection and a few states leave IRA funds wide open to lawsuits.

Here is a list I found  http://moranknobel.com/news/State_Laws_Protecting_IRAs.pdf

Interesting. From your link, it looks like most states (including mine) protect IRAs from bankruptcy creditors the same as a 401k.

Other protections, such as general lawsuit awards, seems to be lacking for an IRA. Detailed state by state information is hard to Google up.

For me, the theoretical risk of losing a lawsuit is worth it to get away from Prudential, which is a company I hope to never see again.