Author Topic: The opportunity cost of financial independence  (Read 10058 times)

Nords

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The opportunity cost of financial independence
« on: June 06, 2016, 09:41:21 AM »
I haven't hung out with Harry Sit since FinCon12, but back then he made a very perceptive comment which stopped me in my tracks and changed my opinion.  It led me directly to selling the blog.  Ever since then I've tremendously enjoyed reading his thoughts on the practical aspects (and hassles) of reaching financial independence.

His latest perceptive comment compares the opportunity cost of financial independence to the opportunity cost of continuing to work.  Both are essentially opposite sides of the same debate, but when you label early retirement as an opportunity cost ("not realizing your full human capital") then some commenters feel that you've joined the Internet Retirement Police.

He gives more examples in this post:
http://thefinancebuff.com/opportunity-cost-enough-concept.html
He's not trying to persuade his readers of one viewpoint or the other-- he's just helping people reframe the debate.

I'll attest that once you reach financial independence, the opportunity cost of continuing to work is worse ("more expensive") than the opportunity cost of not realizing all the potential of your human capital.  Somewhere in the first five years of ER we went from "We think we have enough" to "Yeah, that's more than we need". 

After 14 years of ER we've reached the phase of "Way more than enough and approaching the burden of stewardship".  (This is what happens when FIRE calculators give you a >80% success rate.)  Today I still pick up pennies off the sidewalk (frugal habits die hard) yet I can't imagine trading my creativity & labor solely for more money.  Maybe that's because I've never found a career that I love more than money, but it's probably because I value my time more highly than more money.

Miss Prim

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2016, 10:11:07 AM »
Interesting post Nords.  I have been retired for a year now and sometimes feel like I should go back to work at least on a reserve basis because there are not enough people who do my job anymore (medical laboratory work, last 8 years in microbiology).  And then I think, but I don't need the money and it would interfere with travelling!  I think about doing medical mission work, but I don't really want to go to an area where dengue fever and other diseases are prevalent because I don't want to get sick!  I'm really torn right now because I kind of miss my field of work. 

First world problems I know, but still a dilemma! 

Did you sell your military blog?  Is it because it was getting to be a lot of work, or were you just wanting to do other things with your time?

                                                                                      Miss Prim

Mr. Green

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2016, 01:39:22 PM »
A comment I made on his blog post as a response to another commenter. I thought it was an interesting consideration so I've included it here. Nords, I thought your last two paragraphs were a nice validation of the notion that, so frequently, following the 25x expenses mantra already has its own ability to "spend up if necessary" built into it. As someone who earns a very high income I keenly feel the opportunity cost of giving up the job for early retirement. I think my future self will say it was worth it though.

"It must be noted that 25x expenses already includes a standard deviation in it because it’s historically based on worst case scenario. The majority of the time, someone calling it quits with 25x expenses is able to spend more over the coming years because the portfolio has grown as a rate that outpaces your expenditures. I think many people have difficulty trusting this, which is is why they plan to save more. This, in effect, isn’t just doubling up on the safety margin. It’s SQUARING it because now the doubled up portfolio will outpace one’s expenses in the majority of scenarios where one withdraws 4% of the initial portfolio value, leading to an even larger runaway portfolio balance over time. Saving beyond 25x then represents one of three things, either a belief that the future will be worse than anything in the past, a lack of understanding that someone spending 4% is most likely inevitably able to spend more, or being so risk intolerant of not being able to flex higher with future expenses that, even though it would occur in only the worst case scenarios, it is too great an opportunity cost to stop working. Perhaps there’s a middle ground where the fear of 4% not being enough, and the math that it is, and the realization that the effect of overshooting is squared, not doubled, might allow someone to trim how far they want to overshoot."

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 02:32:29 PM »

Maybe that's because I've never found a career that I love more than money, but it's probably because I value my time more highly than more money.


I guess no-one pays amateur surfers well enough for you to sign on Nords :) 

I wish there were more 'working' situations where people could have the best of both worlds and craft their work and income as they prefer.  I do view pretty much everyone's lifestyle as having some component of work.  If you are cleaning your house or cooking, then you are not paying a maid or going to a restaurant, so in a way you are doing 'paid' work. 

Personally, I do not view myself as working FOR money (given a continued lifetime of low spending vs. the exponential increase in net worth) but I also enjoy living a 'mostly mainstream' lifestyle and having someone give me money for what I enjoy doing anyway.  Maybe I'm weird in this community for liking the fact that I blend in with the Jones (although I don't keep up with them).  I like the neighborhood and neighbors, public schools, and the plethora of teachable moments with my kids to define our own values.  This is the world that they are going to inherit, might as well let them decide for themselves if they also want to blend in and be a part of it or if they prefer to go their own way...

Just spit-balling a bit here, hopefully this is an interesting discussion and thanks to TFB and Nords for bringing it up!

Nords

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2016, 02:48:30 PM »
Interesting post Nords.  I have been retired for a year now and sometimes feel like I should go back to work at least on a reserve basis because there are not enough people who do my job anymore (medical laboratory work, last 8 years in microbiology).  And then I think, but I don't need the money and it would interfere with travelling!  I think about doing medical mission work, but I don't really want to go to an area where dengue fever and other diseases are prevalent because I don't want to get sick!  I'm really torn right now because I kind of miss my field of work. 
I'm willing to work, but I'm definitely opposed to the hassle factors and the dissatisfiers.  I miss the military's camaraderie and the cool gear and the missions... but not enough to sign up for midwatches or weekend duty.  Writing has turned out to be exactly the type of activity that I can do without location or time constraints.  No department head meetings or mandatory training, either.

Did you sell your military blog?  Is it because it was getting to be a lot of work, or were you just wanting to do other things with your time?
I sold The-Military-Guide.com (and its revenue) to another servicemember who runs all the infrastructure (and keeps all the earnings).  The "price" he paid for the blog was a large donation to a military-friendly charity.  I was spending more and more time tweaking the blog (and building its income) yet I'd rather write.  I still write for the site and do some social media for it and I'll continue to do so indefinitely, but in a few months I'm going to slow down from weekly posts to monthly.  I'll use the rest of the time to work on eBook(s) about making good decisions with military insurance programs.  I'll continue to market my books through the site.

A comment I made on his blog post as a response to another commenter. I thought it was an interesting consideration so I've included it here. Nords, I thought your last two paragraphs were a nice validation of the notion that, so frequently, following the 25x expenses mantra already has its own ability to "spend up if necessary" built into it. As someone who earns a very high income I keenly feel the opportunity cost of giving up the job for early retirement. I think my future self will say it was worth it though.
Your math makes sense.  Trying to drive the failure rate to zero via higher earnings/longer employment just multiplies the odds of ending up with way more than necessary.

But that's the thing about financial independence-- we really haven't done the "spending up" part.  We projected a conservative retirement spending budget and then stayed well inside it.  25X already had a big variable-spending safety factor built into it.

Our expenses dropped when I retired (because we had the time to review all of our expenses once again) and we had plenty of flexibility to travel at off-peak periods or to search for bargains.  When our daughter left for college our grocery bill dropped by nearly 50%.  When she graduated from college then our travel expenses shifted from short trips to her college (or her trips home) to long, slow trips overseas. 

These days our biggest expenses are travel, groceries, and utilities.  (Our biggest travel expense this year has been... Camp Mustache.)  If last 14 years are any indicator, they'll continue to drop.


Maybe that's because I've never found a career that I love more than money, but it's probably because I value my time more highly than more money.

I guess no-one pays amateur surfers well enough for you to sign on Nords :) 
I've been competitive my whole life, and surf contests would just ruin the whole activity for me.  These days I'm extremely hypercompetitive at not being competitive.

It's more about being on the wave than it is about what I'm doing to it.  Or what it's doing to me...

steveo

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2016, 03:36:11 AM »
Interesting thread.

Fairviewite

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2016, 05:01:58 AM »
Following

frugalecon

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2016, 06:57:13 AM »
Interested in following this thread.

I have gone back and forth on what the right retirement date is. My spouse is about 4 years older than I am, and he will thus reach "typical" retirement milestones ahead of me. I had thought of hanging on for a few years after he goes, because of a discontinuity in my pension. But sharpening my pencil I have concluded that it would be clownish to do that, because it would only get us from a situation where we had way more income than we needed to one where we had way, way more income than we needed. And the opportunity cost is time spent with my best friend and life partner, who is also someone who will need help navigating his transition out of the work world. (His identity is much more tied up with his career than mine is.) That is a pretty stiff opportunity cost to pay for a few more bucks, which we will probably never even spend.

brooklynguy

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 09:17:58 AM »
The opportunity cost framework described in the article is a useful way of framing the cost-benefit analysis that should drive one's decision to retire early (or not retire early), and I agree with the author that no bright line ever exists to demark the crossover point from "not enough" to "enough," but his discussion of the concept of "enough" fails to recognize one of the underlying premises behind the idea of MMM-style early retirement:  that we humans are generally awful at predicting what makes us happy and consequently, in our consumerist society, we generally grossly overestimate our own true level of "enough."

The author seems to concede that any additional dollars beyond "enough" (whatever level that happens to be) have no additional utility (putting aside their potential use for altruistic or other selfless purposes) and the opportunity cost of forgoing those dollars is therefore exactly zero.

He goes on to say that it is impossible in any given case to precisely identify exactly how much constitutes "enough" (which I agree with), but he argues that this fuzziness renders the concept of "enough" "not that useful" (which I disagree with).  You may not be able to identify with fine precision what specific level of assets constitutes your own personal level of "enough" (where one penny less would constitute "not enough"), but you can certainly identify levels that are clearly high enough to constitute "enough" (as arebelspy has pointed out before, this is essentially a version of the sorites paradox).

He offers "$10 million at age 60" as the arbitrary level that is "by the standard of most people...probably enough."  But the standard most people use to judge "enoughness" is faulty, because most people think they need much more than they actually do in order to maximize utility.  The average person in the developed world could deflate their lifestyle to one that is substantially less expensive with no sacrifice of their own happiness or even with improvement to their own happiness (meaning that the opportunity cost of forgoing the excess dollars needed to support their previous lifestyle would be zero (again, putting aside the potential utility of those dollars for selfless purposes)).  That idea is the underlying rationale behind this website.

Nords

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2016, 10:17:21 AM »
He offers "$10 million at age 60" as the arbitrary level that is "by the standard of most people...probably enough."  But the standard most people use to judge "enoughness" is faulty, because most people think they need much more than they actually do in order to maximize utility.
Golly, if only those people could derive some sort of ratio between their annual spending and the amount of assets necessary to assure them that they have "enough"...

The average person in the developed world could deflate their lifestyle to one that is substantially less expensive with no sacrifice of their own happiness or even with improvement to their own happiness (meaning that the opportunity cost of forgoing the excess dollars needed to support their previous lifestyle would be zero (again, putting aside the potential utility of those dollars for selfless purposes)).  That idea is the underlying rationale behind this website.
This is one of the advantages of the military aspect of personal finance.  My readers have absolutely no doubt where they draw the line between frugality and deprivation, because they've already spent so much time on the other side of the line.  They clearly understand how little it takes to make them happy, and then they have the motivation & discipline to reach their goals.

Case in point:  it's been nearly 24 years since the last time I slept onboard a submarine.  Wardroom berthing is far more luxurious than anything the Army or the Marines use when they're out on a mission, but you can't roll over in a submarine berth and you definitely don't sit up.  You'd think that by now I'd have upgraded to sprawling across a bed big enough to have its own ZIP code.  Yet even today wherever I sleep I still end up within the 28"-wide strip along the edge of the mattress, and when I get up I still roll out of bed instead of sitting up. 

My spouse is perpetually amused by this behavior, but it's pretty clear that my unconscious habit (just like frugality) is unlikely to change.  It seems to be one of my definitions of "enough". 

However my conscious self is also quite happy to give up my occupation and abandon all the human capital I could've realized by continuing to sleep on submarine racks for "just one more year"...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 10:21:18 AM by Nords »

frugalecon

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 10:29:10 AM »


He goes on to say that it is impossible in any given case to precisely identify exactly how much constitutes "enough" (which I agree with), but he argues that this fuzziness renders the concept of "enough" "not that useful" (which I disagree with).  You may not be able to identify with fine precision what specific level of assets constitutes your own personal level of "enough" (where one penny less would constitute "not enough"), but you can certainly identify levels that are clearly high enough to constitute "enough" (as arebelspy has pointed out before, this is essentially a version of the sorites paradox).


I think that it is not so stark as to say that some level is "enough" and below that is "not enough." The world is not so discrete; it is more continuous. At every level of wealth the question is "what is the probability that I will be able to live the life I want to live without running out of money by the end of the road." As more dollars are added to the stash, the probability goes down, and it likely eventually gets to zero, since you reach a point at which essentially all desired spending can be covered by what are for all intents and purposes risk-free assets. (Obviously the Federal government may not make good on paying back its TIPS if there is an Extinction Level Event, but that state of the world is irrelevant for the problem at hand.) So the real question is to have some model of how the probability of failure declines as the size of the pile increases. Unfortunately, research indicates that humans are really bad at thinking about low probability events. Combined with overlooking hedonic adaptation issues, it is hard to make sensible decisions.

I have recently concluded that I can likely retire two years earlier than I was planning, but I still feel the pull to be committed to the later date, for "safety." Doesn't make much sense.

Mr. Green

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2016, 11:01:28 AM »
I think the problem most folks have is that their expectation of the enough vs. not enough argument is that it's like a light switch, where there are only two states. Life is not like that though. The future is uncertain, and there are a million different paths one's life could take. But we humans are terrible at dealing with scenarios above "either/or." There's a reason we have a two party political system and it isn't because it's the best. It's because we can't handle large multiple choice problems. Ironically, life is the biggest game of multiple choice there is and every day represents a new, almost infinite set of choices. So for retirement we simplify because it's all we can handle. I either don't have enough, or I have so much that I'm relatively certain I'm be fine. The only way someone will ever walk early when they have "just" enough, instead of "red-button-nuke" enough is if he is willing to accept that there are some paths in life where he won't have enough, and be okay with that. But by having more money, there are certainly less possibilities in my future that I won't have enough but that can become a slippery slope. All the other variables (enjoyment of job, etc, etc) just move the slider between enough and not enough to where we are willing to "flip the switch."

Basenji

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2016, 11:15:22 AM »
Brooklynguy, I like your post a lot. One thing that I note, however, that people do is forget that $ does not literally equal life/time. We get confused trying to put a $ number on living. I'm not being cute and using "life" to mean freedom or some squishy feel-good concept, I mean literal time breathing/heartbeat. Opportunity cost of leaving money unearned is not the same as opportunity cost of time remaining alive. So, the reason we are bad at predicting enough and what will make us happy is this basic disconnect. This is why the thought exoeriment, "What would you do if you knew you only had # years/months/weeks to live?" is so powerful. I try to think of opportunity cost in terms of life left and not $. How do I want to spend my remaining limited days alive? What is the time/life cost of not doing that by pursuing money? Then, with this in mind do the $ enough math. I get that some people can do both, but they would still decide based on life and not $. And of course this is difficult to do at age 25, easier at 50.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 11:19:34 AM by Basenji »

UnleashHell

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 09:18:37 AM »
Just want to say that this has been a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. I'm teetering on the brink and with cfiresim giving me anything from 80% to 90% plus several things at work pissing me right off i've very close to packing it in and quitting. My wife has been  funemployed for the last 8 months and i want to join her. this might be the time.

Right now I'm working for the following reasons.
1) some debt to pay off. this isn't too much and isn't high interest. can be dealt with very quickly
2) we've been on some pricey vacations and have another couple in the works. Of course they are pricey - my time is limited and I pay higher rates than the other suckers because of that....
3) belts and braces - anther layer of security the more I stash. oh I'm near 50 - SS isn't going anywhere - the time I have left to bridge isn't much.
4) I had a plan and that said next year. I'd hate to be wrong.....


Oh yeah - my wife is younger than me, she  can, and would, go back to some work if required. Plus we are setting up a side hustle ...
sigh. its a lot to think about.

rockstache

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 09:56:35 AM »
I think the problem most folks have is that their expectation of the enough vs. not enough argument is that it's like a light switch, where there are only two states. Life is not like that though. The future is uncertain, and there are a million different paths one's life could take. But we humans are terrible at dealing with scenarios above "either/or." There's a reason we have a two party political system and it isn't because it's the best. It's because we can't handle large multiple choice problems. Ironically, life is the biggest game of multiple choice there is and every day represents a new, almost infinite set of choices. So for retirement we simplify because it's all we can handle. I either don't have enough, or I have so much that I'm relatively certain I'm be fine. The only way someone will ever walk early when they have "just" enough, instead of "red-button-nuke" enough is if he is willing to accept that there are some paths in life where he won't have enough, and be okay with that. But by having more money, there are certainly less possibilities in my future that I won't have enough but that can become a slippery slope. All the other variables (enjoyment of job, etc, etc) just move the slider between enough and not enough to where we are willing to "flip the switch."

This is really interesting. It reminds me of the study done on willpower, and how the more we have to make choices, the more our willpower for those choices decreases. I think a lot of mustachians that I have read about here, tend to put 'unimportant' parts of life (such as what to wear), on autopilot, so that they have more time/energy/willpower, for (what they consider) the important decisions.

To someone who hasn't actually thoughtfully considered their financial possibilities, it can absolutely seem like too many choices. I have even heard people refer to finance in general as too difficult to consider. You make a good point.

Nords

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2016, 09:58:20 AM »
sigh. its a lot to think about.
To someone who hasn't actually thoughtfully considered their financial possibilities, it can absolutely seem like too many choices. I have even heard people refer to finance in general as too difficult to consider.
Ah, well, that's a different post about the "fog of work":  http://the-military-guide.com/the-fog-of-work/

You'd probably want a few more paychecks to pay off the debt and sleep better at night.  However once you stop showing up for work you'd have the flexibility & time to find ways to reduce the cost of travel. 

ender

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2016, 06:23:24 AM »
The biggest thing to me is strategically living your life such that when you are on your deathbed you have minimal regrets.

For the overwhelming majority of people, "I worked too much" will be their thought - not wishing they had worked more.

I see nothing wrong with working after FI so long as it's purposeful. Maybe that's to donate large sums to charity. There are valid reasons to do this, but accumulating more possessions should not be on the list.

You can't take a U-Haul with you when you die.

Cassie

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2016, 05:56:50 PM »
My DH and I found out after about 7 months of full retirement that we preferred to do some work. I teach an online class that I can do from anywhere there is internet. I also do a very small amount of consulting as does my DH.  WE have really been enjoying ourselves and I can't imagine having to work f.t. now. WE actually are spending more in semi-retirement because we are doing much more traveling to many of the places we have been wanting to see.  All the studies seem to indicate that by age 70 most people don't want to travel much so at 62 and 57 we are not wasting time:))  It really is a shame that more people can't work professional jobs on a p.t. basis but most are f.t.

Happy Little Chipmunk

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Re: The opportunity cost of financial independence
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2016, 10:49:24 AM »
Great post; following.

Opportunity cost was a big factor in DH 'retirement' decision. He did part time for a year, then fully retired this May. Had to forgo some splendid earnings but the benefits are so far worth it. You gotta know what you value in order to make this computation, however. And you need to take the time to reassess your goals and make adjustments.

This summer with our kiddos (16 & 12) has been fun & amazing. He's currently teaching "Daddy Camp" to them and two others. It's a week of programming, computer science/history & related activities (and lots of video games.) He's done similar things in the past, but because he had the free time, there's a much deeper curriculum and higher level of engagement.

It won't be long before the kids are fledged; having quality time with them is a priority. Teaching through example that investments, savings, mindfulness & frugality = massive amounts of choice wasn't the goal, but it is certainly a great collateral outcome. 

Thanks for the interesting discussion!