The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Mr. Green on July 20, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
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I know there are a lot of engineers here and I think this issue might be more prevalent in "thinkers" than the general population. Maybe someone has some helpful advice I haven't heard yet.
I'm generally a happy person but when I have moments of deep reflection I can't help but feel like there is something eating away at my core, like a dark undercurrent because I'm no longer focused on anything that is meaningful to me. I have these bouts where I become fixated on that and it just really jacks up my day.
I have a hard time believing that it's anxiety because I don't really have much to be anxious right now, though I am still on anti-anxiety medication from issues I had earlier this year. However these feelings of wanting to focus on something meaningful have been rattling around up there for years. There are times when I pursue activities that are physically exerting because it's the only thing that seems to shut my brain down, put me in "machine mode."
Finding something meaningful to focus my energy on would be nice but I would really love to figure out how to change my thinking instead. I'd love to be able to be happy just existing, in a healthy body. I think maybe I just ruminate too much and I don't really know how to turn it off.
Have any other FIRE'ees had this problem?
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Posting to follow. I'm in one more year syndrome and starting to realize that it's one thing to say "when I'm retired I'm gonna do this and that and the other and won't it be great" and actually dealing with the vacuum left behind when the job is gone, is quite another.
My thought is to create a schedule for everyday that gets followed..more or less.. But I'm not sure that really gets you to be "happy just existing". Maybe it's a crutch to get you there, i.e. a way of transitioning to the new state of mind.
Best of luck!
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Have you tried meditation?
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As a fellow engineer, I can say that I am truly happy when I am building something. Find a project that you can sink your teeth into. It need not even be in your field. I am redoing my master bath, the design and selection is giving me a lot of satisfaction.
I think you are a software engineer. Can you build something that can be of help the FIRE community? I would love a project like this if there are any good suggestions.
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Have you tried meditation?
+1 to this. I'm not yet FIREd, but I very much experience the "I think maybe I just ruminate too much and I don't really know how to turn it off" feeling you described.
I'm still really new to meditation and find it difficult, but even meager attempts have been helpful to me. Check your library for guided meditation CDs and audio books.
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I'd love to be able to be happy just existing, in a healthy body.
I don't think that's how humans work. Solving interesting problems is important for our happiness. I'd imagine this is probably more true for engineers than the rest of the population.
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Have you tried meditation?
I haven't. I think I'll check out my local library tomorrow for some books on meditation. An ex-coworker of mine mentioned Yin Yoga to me once. It's a style of yoga that's supposed to be more like meditation with a focus on breathing a holding poses for a longer period of time. Your question jarred my memory. Turns out there's a yoga studio in my town and they have a Yin Yoga class this Sunday. I might just give that a try as well.
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I have a hard time believing that it's anxiety because I don't really have much to be anxious right now, though I am still on anti-anxiety medication from issues I had earlier this year.
All I can say to this is that some days I feel like I have been anxious my whole life. As a kid. As an adult. When things were hellish and when life was great. Sometimes I know what I am anxious about and other times it is just amorphous free-floating anxiety.
I do not know if you are anxious or not, but there does not have to be a reason to be anxious.
Which sucks.
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I found, like many others, it takes about 6 months for your paradigm to shift. You have find meaning in "who you are", rather than "what you do". Trust me when I say it is more satisfying that way.
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I found, like many others, it takes about 6 months for your paradigm to shift. You have find meaning in "who you are", rather than "what you do". Trust me when I say it is more satisfying that way.
I understand what you mean and it makes sense. I suppose this is part of the problem. Leaving work for me was like being reborn. Despite what I've read about the transition I didn't expect things to be so extreme.
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Have you tried meditation?
+1
I would suggest you checkout headspace app/website to learn
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I find the best way to turn your brain off is intense physical activity and social interactions. Surround yourself with people who favor those activities to kickstart things as motivation. Your blood will flow in other parts of your body and brain and I bet it will be a nice change of pace. It's hard though if you're addicted to satisfying your sense of purpose through a small set of activities.
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Ptf
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Went to psychologist recently about this very thing. She highly recommended practising mindfulness, which is learning to focus on the present, and what your senses are perceiving at any moment in time. Meditation is the training tool to learn how to do that.
Lots of resources online, including pretty much every second article on zenhabits.net.
Her specific recommendations were:
- Look for Jon Kabat Zinn's "Body Scan" meditation on youtube.
- Look for the book, "Full Catastrophe Living" by the same guy.
I haven't followed the program like I should, but the little bits I've done and have made a huge difference. Highly recommend.
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Have you tried meditation?
+1
I would suggest you checkout headspace app/website to learn
+2
Headspace is a great way to get started.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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10% happier app/book helps
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IMO, (this always works for me) read a book, maybe any book
Latest book I enjoyed is "The Rosie Project"
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Another vote for meditation. I'm anxious and OCD by nature, and it's changed my life. It's not the kind of thing that will work overnight, so you need to stick with it, but you'll gradually find that you're able to just acknowledge those thoughts and then let them go, instead of actively engaging them and running around in mental circles. It will be hard when you start, but that's normal.
Think of it as mental and emotional badassity. To use a financial analogy, your 'stache will increase and decrease in the short term, but will trend up over time. One day three/five/ten years from now, your SO/parents/friends/somebody will say, You know, you're a hell of a lot more relaxed in [Situation A] than you used to be. What did you do?
Anyway, get a book or app or something and start today. Totally worth it.
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Have you tried meditation?
I haven't. I think I'll check out my local library tomorrow for some books on meditation. An ex-coworker of mine mentioned Yin Yoga to me once. It's a style of yoga that's supposed to be more like meditation with a focus on breathing a holding poses for a longer period of time. Your question jarred my memory. Turns out there's a yoga studio in my town and they have a Yin Yoga class this Sunday. I might just give that a try as well.
I'm a huge fan of Yin Yoga over just regular meditation (though both are great) if you can. The added physical stress multiplies the peaceful effect from my experience. Afterwords, your mind feels calm, your energy is contained, and your muscles worked.
However, I've never been a fan of going to yoga studios. I find it hard to let my mind go when I'm surrounded by so many people. But that's personal preference obviously. What's worked for me is to plop down alone in a room with a laptop or something, and queue up a youtube video on Yin Yoga (and other flavors). Added bonus: it's free!
The first time I tried it, I was feeling in a rut like you. I was frankly amazed at the feeling of pure serenity I felt for the rest of the day. It far exceeded my expectations.
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IMO, (this always works for me) read a book, maybe any book
Latest book I enjoyed is "The Rosie Project"
I read quite a few books recently. I can burn through a book in a day or so. I love to read but after too much it becomes negative for me because it begins to feel like something I'm doing just to pass the time, like I can't find anything better to do. Not sure if that makes any sense.
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Have you tried meditation?
I haven't. I think I'll check out my local library tomorrow for some books on meditation. An ex-coworker of mine mentioned Yin Yoga to me once. It's a style of yoga that's supposed to be more like meditation with a focus on breathing a holding poses for a longer period of time. Your question jarred my memory. Turns out there's a yoga studio in my town and they have a Yin Yoga class this Sunday. I might just give that a try as well.
I'm a huge fan of Yin Yoga over just regular meditation (though both are great) if you can. The added physical stress multiplies the peaceful effect from my experience. Afterwords, your mind feels calm, your energy is contained, and your muscles worked.
However, I've never been a fan of going to yoga studios. I find it hard to let my mind go when I'm surrounded by so many people. But that's personal preference obviously. What's worked for me is to plop down alone in a room with a laptop or something, and queue up a youtube video on Yin Yoga (and other flavors). Added bonus: it's free!
The first time I tried it, I was feeling in a rut like you. I was frankly amazed at the feeling of pure serenity I felt for the rest of the day. It far exceeded my expectations.
I watched a Yin Yoga video on YouTube yesterday. I was surprised at how familiar I was with most of the movements from various stretches after CrossFit workouts I used to do. I definitely thought it seemed simple enough that I could do it at home versus paying $20 for the class in my town. The studio does offer a first month of unlimited classes of various types of yoga for $40. That would probably be worth it.
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I'd love to be able to be happy just existing, in a healthy body.
I don't think that's how humans work. Solving interesting problems is important for our happiness. I'd imagine this is probably more true for engineers than the rest of the population.
I love meditation and agree with above posters about that to turn off anxious thoughts, but also agree with this response. Humans need challenge. Train for a physical feat, build something, do meaningful work for your community. Most people still need goals and purpose whether you are being paid for work or not. Overcoming challenges builds self-esteem and purpose. All of human history was about overcoming challenges, so the idea that we can be happy just existing doesn't seem quite right to me...
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IMO, (this always works for me) read a book, maybe any book
Latest book I enjoyed is "The Rosie Project"
I read quite a few books recently. I can burn through a book in a day or so. I love to read but after too much it becomes negative for me because it begins to feel like something I'm doing just to pass the time, like I can't find anything better to do. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Makes sense to me, I could have written this myself. Reading can be good but IMO should be books that challenge you. Often you just read the same genres/books about the same stuff and that doesn't really expand your mind. At least some reading should be like physical exercise: slightly uncomfortable because it's demanding, but feels good afterwards. Good novels could do this (For whom the bell tolls is my best example) or non-fiction (Like «Thinking fast and slow» by Kahnemann).
Meditation, haven't tried, but prayer could also be helpful if you're of the theistic persuasion like me. Also agree with the need for physical exertion and social contact. Balance is fundamental! When I have similar feelings I try to see if I've been missing out on either of these.
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Well it took 9 months for not going to work to feel normal.
I have periods of projects for sure but I am nowhere near as intense about getting stuff done.. In fact I would say there are two or three day stretches where I really enjoy absolutely nothing.. well reading the business blogs and the MMM forums.
Before I know it the day is used up and its bed time.
It took me a while to give myself permission to do this and I can't say how I got there. But dammit I'm retired I can do ANYTHING or NOTHING.. its OK.
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Make a garden. As big as you can. Plant things and watch them grow. You will always have work to do. You will always have something to look forward to. You will always have more to learn.
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There appear to be two types of solution here - both of them work, and it depends on what you want to achieve.
On the one hand there is meditation and mindfulness. My library would have at least 50 books and audiobooks about this, including a lot of audio books that are guided practice. Since I've retired, I have borroed most of them. One day, I looked them all up, added them to my request list, and have been gradually getting them ever since. Some have been reborrowed several times. Most were not quite what I wanted. There are also numerous free apps on meditation. They have been good for me, and I feel that my brain has reset with their assistance.
On the other hand, there is the search for something to replace the satisfaction that work gave you - that turned the brain on, and lit up life. This is no bad thing, and we have all found some individual satisfaction in work that is useful continuing. With me, I first needed to articulate to myself what it was that I was looking for. I found that "What Color is Your Parachute in Retirement?" (the first book of this type that I came across) helped me to narrow down the type of stimulation that I was missing, and from there I worked out what things would give that to me. But, again, there are quite a few books in my library on retirement - although far fewer of them talk about the mind changes (most are just finance books), and quite a number of them have exercises that help you to do this. Again, I found some helped me more than others, and it was useful to go through them all to find the ones that struck a chord with me.
Another way I have used to get the stimulation I was missing was to look at my hobbies and work out exactly what parts of them gave me the outcomes that I missed from work.
Having said this, I searched for stimulation before I retired, because I felt it would be the biggest problem for me after I had retired. This meant that I had already started to do the things I had identified, and so I never had the problem.
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My DH is an engineer and has this problem.
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I've been making an effort to start keeping a diary/journal because I've had various ailments, both mental and physical, over the last year and once an issue has been resolved, I have difficulty remembering the details later and sometimes it's beneficial to have that information. I believe that my cerebral struggles are, for the most part, lesser degrees of this journal entry I wrote last night. At the moment I assume my issues stem from dealing with giving life meaning, but I'm still puzzling it out. I'm headed to the library tomorrow to check out some books on meditation.
"There continue to be many nights when I lay my head down to sleep and my exhaustion gives way to the image of dying in old age. I am terrified by the thought of dying and I can’t seem to put my finger on why. I don’t think I fear the process of dying, of no longer being alive, but the sudden entry of the thought in my mind consistently opens up this dark hole in the center of my being, some deep fear. I am so afraid that my body activates its fight or flight response. Adrenaline is produced and my exhaustion fades. My senses heighten dramatically, so much so that my wife closing a drawer in the bathroom vanity makes me jump. It feels like my heart rate increases, though I know that doesn’t actually happen. I tense up and my metabolism jumps, sometimes producing so much heat that I’ll start to sweat just lying there in bed. I inevitably have to get up and find something to distract myself to tear my mind away from the thought. Eventually I tire to the point that I fall asleep without thinking about death, usually in the early hours of the morning.
Why am I so afraid?"
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Mr. Green, I would highly suggest you continue to search for meditation resources. You have to be persistent and you will probably read many books but the peace and tranquility of mind that you are seeking does exist. The thing about meditation is you have to be extremely patient with yourself at the beginning when you mind is most active. There is a great proverb that compares your mind as a beginning meditator to a fish, just pulled out of water, flopping and struggling in the open air. You thoughts might even more exaggerated at the beginning.
The books on meditation range from super beginner to super advanced. Keep that in mind when you are looking for books. A beginner book might be good. If you get one and it seems "to basic" then look for something at your level. Headspace is a good entry point, I think.
Also, "prayer" and "meditation" are often interchangeable words. A lot of the resources on meditation and calming the mind are religious. But, I found that certain books spoke to me at different stages of the process of learning to meditate. So, you might start with some headspace and move to some buddhist, hindu, Christian books or whatever.
My point in all of the above is to have an open mind in the kind of resources that count as "meditation" and to search out the resources that work specifically for you. Also, patience. With and open mind, patience and persistence you will learn to calm your mind.
PS I also love gardening for dealing with a need for physical activity. I then listen to meditation and spiritual books while tending to my garden.
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As a fellow engineer, I can say that I am truly happy when I am building something. Find a project that you can sink your teeth into. It need not even be in your field. I am redoing my master bath, the design and selection is giving me a lot of satisfaction.
+1. As an engineer as well I too find it difficult to just shift my brain into relaxation and contentment mode if I have nothing to work/focus on. I have started building furniture as fun projects and to sell to folks. I've always got small projects going on the around the house. My kids have activities that keep me busy as well. I planted a small garden which I am enjoying and plan on expanding next year. And I have really focused on exercising more. All these things keep me plenty busy and happy.
I really truly enjoy being able to do all of these things pretty much at my own pace when otherwise I would be stressed trying to fit them all in while working full time. I don't think you truly have to shift your "brain off." Just focus more on things that you want to do and enjoy.
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I think I know what you're feeling, sorta like the never ending stream of consciousness that you can never turn off? The inability to be "in the moment?"
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Following.
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I am studying Ayurveda (traditional Indian medicine - holistic); while it is not a one size fits all modality (customized to the individual), try this for anxiety:
1. abhyanga (you can google this - banyan botanicals is a good resource) - self massage, from head to toe - use warmed, organic sesame oil - available at whole foods etc. Not the toasted sesame in asian cooking. No need to use large amounts. Use an old towel/clothes, since they may get oil on them & wash separately. Can do this each day, before shower.
2. walks in nature
3. when exercising, do not exert to the point where you have to breathe through your mouth; also try a few minutes of alternate-nostril breathing each day (google this also)
4. meditate for a few minutes each day - can do this after abhyanga, before showering; try yoga nidra (type of meditation)
5. media fast for a few days;
6. restorative yoga
Give all of this a few days/weeks - calming down the brain takes time
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Have you tried meditation?
I haven't. I think I'll check out my local library tomorrow for some books on meditation. An ex-coworker of mine mentioned Yin Yoga to me once. It's a style of yoga that's supposed to be more like meditation with a focus on breathing a holding poses for a longer period of time. Your question jarred my memory. Turns out there's a yoga studio in my town and they have a Yin Yoga class this Sunday. I might just give that a try as well.
Check out this video, The Art of Meditation, by Alan Watts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TjCZRutOKY
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Mr. Green, I would highly suggest you continue to search for meditation resources. You have to be persistent and you will probably read many books but the peace and tranquility of mind that you are seeking does exist. The thing about meditation is you have to be extremely patient with yourself at the beginning when you mind is most active. There is a great proverb that compares your mind as a beginning meditator to a fish, just pulled out of water, flopping and struggling in the open air. You thoughts might even more exaggerated at the beginning.
The books on meditation range from super beginner to super advanced. Keep that in mind when you are looking for books. A beginner book might be good. If you get one and it seems "to basic" then look for something at your level. Headspace is a good entry point, I think.
Also, "prayer" and "meditation" are often interchangeable words. A lot of the resources on meditation and calming the mind are religious. But, I found that certain books spoke to me at different stages of the process of learning to meditate. So, you might start with some headspace and move to some buddhist, hindu, Christian books or whatever.
My point in all of the above is to have an open mind in the kind of resources that count as "meditation" and to search out the resources that work specifically for you. Also, patience. With and open mind, patience and persistence you will learn to calm your mind.
PS I also love gardening for dealing with a need for physical activity. I then listen to meditation and spiritual books while tending to my garden.
The good thing is, as an engineer, I'm all about finding a solution to the problem, even if it's an unexpected or odd solution. Earlier this year when I was seeing a therapist for anxiety, she recommended Tapping, which seemed kinda hokey but I found that it helped break those attacks. Tapping actually looked similar to meditation to me in the way it forces you to focus on something specific and by speaking during the process, your body tunes out other distractions, creating a fairly peaceful effect. It didn't solve any problems but it stopped the runaway train.
I picked up a couple books on meditation and mindfulness at the library today. I also picked up a book by Chris Guillebeau called the "The Happiness of Pursuit."
I think I know what you're feeling, sorta like the never ending stream of consciousness that you can never turn off? The inability to be "in the moment?"
It's definitely a stream of consciousness type of thing but oddly enough it only ever happens at night as I'm trying to go to sleep. I have no problem being in the moment during the day. I've even had some fairly full days before where I still struggle with this "darkness" at night. It's like there's some subconscious threshold in my mind for what qualifies as a task worthy of spending my life doing and sometimes just being busy isn't enough to keep the thoughts at bay. It's certainly irrational to fear dying of old age and regretting not having spent my life on something I believe to be worthwhile when I'm only 33 and have decades to change that. I think maybe the thought starts there and then transforms into this thought that if I died right now I wouldn't have done anything truly meaningful with my life, which is another irrational thought because if I died right now it would matter any more. I understand that at the logical level but the brain is a powerful thing, not persuaded by logic at times.
This doesn't directly address your question about your fear of death, but one thing I was wondering that I am not sure anyone else has raised yet is how much meaningful/supportive social interaction you are getting? I think that is one of the hardest things about FIREing for many of us, even the introverts. I definitely notice patterns with my moods -- if I haven't had a meaningful social interaction with anyone other than immediate family members for more than a few days, I start to get into a funk. And it can become a vicious cycle, because the longer I am isolated, the more I sometimes feel like isolating myself, and the more funky I get, and the less initiative I have to see people, etc. etc. I didn't really experience this when I was working because even on the worst days, pretty much every day I had some kind of rejuvenating social interaction. But if I don't make a point of scheduling things and reaching out to others in FIRE, it is extremely easy to fall into a hole of isolation. Which is, of course, compounded by the fact lots of people don't really "get" FIRE to begin with, so the circle of people you can connect with meaningfully is already reduced.
Some things that have helped me are having a regular walk scheduled with my sister and friends, a book group, volunteering at the food bank, an academic group at my old university that I still participate in, and just being more mindful about putting meet ups with friends on my calendar. I find that 2-4 non-family social interactions a week seems to be a good rate for me-- more than that and I start feeling overscheduled, one interaction a week helps but isn't quite enough to keep me feeling my best.
Re: the anxiety attacks -- I had my first bout of them when I was 8 years old, after my grandfather (who I was very close to) died suddenly of a heart attack. I think the loss of that important social support figure + a certain inability or unwillingness to confront grief in my family (my parents had lost their first child to brain cancer before I was born) left me feeling adrift. I had insomnia and panic attacks for several months, until eventually I resolved it with an intense religious conversion experience. Your situation is very different, but I do wonder if the loss of meaning-making through employment + a reduced social support network might be combining here to manifest in this way.
I'm sorry the journey into FIRE hasn't been more pleasant/uplifting for you. I hope you are able to come through this without going back to work, but if not then don't be discouraged. Good mental health is important, and if work gives you that then there is nothing wrong with going back to work. But I do think that meditation/mindfulness and a stronger social network might help to put you in a better spot.
My FIRE situation is definitely not optimal, in that there are some avenues to try and get past my struggles that are closed to me right now. We're back and forth between two states, which has prohibited any attempts at an activity that is longer than two weeks. Gardening, a class, a part-time job, etc. All of those things are impossible at the moment though I expect we'll be somewhere permanently in another 3-4 weeks so that will open up some options I don't have right now.
I've been big on physical activity in the past, which can tire me to where I don't struggle with these thoughts at night. Unfortunately I have two challenges at the moment (knee, back) that have really been putting a damper on things. Thankfully I have a rower, and I'm going to attempt to make up for the weight lifting I can't do with non-impact exercise.
I think I definitely need a better social setting, and I'm hoping to work on that as well. I very much enjoy interacting with people, just not always the best at initiating it as an introvert.
I'm hoping the journal will help me see over time what is and isn't helping and allow me to make more informed choices about alternatives to try when things aren't working.
I guess in general there's just a whole lot of experimentation going on right now, and that can feel a lot like being lost some times. If anything, I'm probably a phenomenal example of why it's important to have some non-job identity/hobby/interests going before pulling the rip cord on the parachute. Thankfully, I feel like I've taken a lot of these hurdles pretty well and I'm really trying to work through them as best I can. I refuse to stay downtrodden because every day is another one I'll never get back.
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In Australia there are a number of walking groups supervised by the heart foundation (they advertise where and when each is and what level of walking they do). You can join a group for one walk or forever, and they are completely free. Doesn't the US have a similar scheme?
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In Australia there are a number of walking groups supervised by the heart foundation (they advertise where and when each is and what level of walking they do). You can join a group for one walk or forever, and they are completely free. Doesn't the US have a similar scheme?
I haven't heard of anything organized by official organizations. There are a couple meetup.com groups near where I live. I should probably look into those more than I have.
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I am an engineer, and I tend to think too much or over analyze things also. One thing that helps me is getting out of the house, go hiking in the park. Instead of thinking about things, I try to feel things when I hike. Feel my feet hitting the uneven ground, feel my calves tighten up when walking up hills, see the flowers, hear the birds chirping, and so forth. Just be patient with yourself. It took me like two years to decompress from my last job. Good luck
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I am same as you - I can go unaware of the dark insides until I snap at my wife on the outside. All my life I have been an NT personality type (worth looking into this if you are not familiar) and have needed to know/understand etc while others could just get on with the party.
+++ for meditation.
You may also want to try in no particular order flotation/isolation tank, a retreat with significant introspective time, buddhist readings, focus on compassion to people that irritate you. Best wishes, ap.
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BTW, Mr. Green if you start down the meditation path then I'd be interested to hear what books you read, what you think of them and what your challenges are when you are beginning. I (or we) here on this thread might be able to point you in the right direction for the next book or activity to deepen your practice. Sometimes it might feel like "oversharing" by letting people in on your mental narrative. But, if you want to share then we might be able to help.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mr. Green. I'm dealing with a similar in-ability to shut things off at times, mostly due to a reduced work schedule and loss of identify as I prepare to "move on" from a 24 year military career. My issue is that I might still hold a part time job but I'm healthy and capable of almost any work (other than doctor/lawyer etc) and I get wrapped up in thinking about "I could do that job and this job and this on here... what to do...".
I will say that there have been lots of good ideas here and I'm going to take some of them and use them (have been meditating for over a year and do lots of physical exercise already) but this response from lhamo really hit home for me:
how much meaningful/supportive social interaction you are getting?
I found that, like other stated, if I insulate myself too much, it leads to more isolation. So, I joined my local veteran's orgs and I'm active. I put things on my google calendar and I MAKE myself go to them (future activities always seem great in the abstract but as they get closer I find reasons to skip them...). I've found that just washing dishes at a friday night cooking session and interacting with my fellow retires "filled my tank" for a week after that, since I don't get a lot of face-to-face on a day in and day out basis (which I'm fine with, heavy introvert).
Also, you mention reading and how it can become a "chore". I've found the same, some times it seems like I'm reading just to "pass the day" and what's the value in that? Just read books to pass the day away to get another day closer to eternal sleep (don't believe in the afterlife here...). My cure to that, take a walk to a local coffee shop/library/park and get a cheap cup of joe or a seat where there is plenty of background noise to keep me feeling "plugged in" to humanity. I'll combine those walks with picking up a few groceries if need be or, if the mood hits me, having a few craft beers and then walking home in a glorious day buzz (I only do this sparingly). I find this increases my enjoyment of reading, I get the exercise of the walk, some human interaction and maybe a cheap cup of joe or really nice craft beer, pretty much all of my favorite "things" in life (I value wife/family more than things of course).
Lastly, have you read much from the world of stoics? I read something from that realm each day and it helps me stay grounded, stay frugal, and stay connected to my purpose while giving me the courage to not fear death. We didn't exist for billions of years before we were born and we won't exist for billions more after we are gone, that concept gives me a strange peace.
Looking forward to the continued conversation!
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It's definitely a stream of consciousness type of thing but oddly enough it only ever happens at night as I'm trying to go to sleep.
I found a good hack for this! I often have a terrible time falling asleep - no matter how exhausted I feel, some nights as soon as lie down to go to sleep my brain is like "Yay!! Let's start obsessing over every little negative thing that's ever happened to you in your entire life!" I read of this technique somewhere and found its actually pretty helpful to stop those kind of ruminatory thoughts:
Pick a random word, preferably one without a lot of repeating letters. We'll use MUSTACHE for this example. Take the first letter "M", and start thinking of every word you can that starts with that letter. Money, mate, maladaptive... just keep going. When you run out of words, go on to the second letter, "U", and start going again. I rarely make it to the second letter before I'm asleep. It gives your brain something neutral to fixate on - it's interesting enough that I can stay focused on it, but boring/unemotional enough that it doesn't get me wound up like my "normal" thoughts do.
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It's definitely a stream of consciousness type of thing but oddly enough it only ever happens at night as I'm trying to go to sleep.
I found a good hack for this! I often have a terrible time falling asleep - no matter how exhausted I feel, some nights as soon as lie down to go to sleep my brain is like "Yay!! Let's start obsessing over every little negative thing that's ever happened to you in your entire life!" I read of this technique somewhere and found its actually pretty helpful to stop those kind of ruminatory thoughts:
Pick a random word, preferably one without a lot of repeating letters. We'll use MUSTACHE for this example. Take the first letter "M", and start thinking of every word you can that starts with that letter. Money, mate, maladaptive... just keep going. When you run out of words, go on to the second letter, "U", and start going again. I rarely make it to the second letter before I'm asleep. It gives your brain something neutral to fixate on - it's interesting enough that I can stay focused on it, but boring/unemotional enough that it doesn't get me wound up like my "normal" thoughts do.
This happens to me sometimes - thanks for the tip, I'll be trying it out tonight probably :-)
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MMM recommends Raptitude.com to learn about meditation and mindfulness, and like many of MMM's recommendations, it is the real deal.
The creator of Raptitude.com, David, has an online meditation class that he gives ~2x/year, called Camp Calm. I took it and highly recommend it. I now meditate once a day for about 30 mins, something I never would have thought possible before. It has paid significant dividends to counter anxiety and promote mindfulness. I would also recommend pairing meditation with hard physical workouts for even better results. I am probably less anxious using both of these tools than I have been over the rest of my life, and I have a 18 month old and another on the way.
Check it out and good luck!
- Chops
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Another +1 for mediation. I have been using the Headspace app daily for ~6 months now and it has changed everything.
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because I'm no longer focused on anything that is meaningful to me.
You answered your own question in your post. You have to focus on something that is meaningful to you. If that was work, maybe you should go back and do a little of that.
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Lastly, have you read much from the world of stoics? I read something from that realm each day and it helps me stay grounded, stay frugal, and stay connected to my purpose while giving me the courage to not fear death. We didn't exist for billions of years before we were born and we won't exist for billions more after we are gone, that concept gives me a strange peace.
I have not read anything even approaching philosophy since college. I suppose I'm not really all that certain of what I believe with respect to the ultimate end game. I guess my thoughts about needing to do something meaningful with my life imply that I don't believe it will simply continue in some fashion that retains my identity and cognitive function after I die. I will try to look into stoicism. Picking up a lot of reading material lately!
BTW, Mr. Green if you start down the meditation path then I'd be interested to hear what books you read, what you think of them and what your challenges are when you are beginning. I (or we) here on this thread might be able to point you in the right direction for the next book or activity to deepen your practice. Sometimes it might feel like "oversharing" by letting people in on your mental narrative. But, if you want to share then we might be able to help.
I've started reading "Real Happiness: The Power of Meditation" by Sharon Salzberg. It's a 4 week guide that gets a beginner started with meditation. There were a couple others I wanted to pick up but they were checked out so I borrowed related books, like one on Fear. I downloaded the Headspace app as well. I haven't used it yet so I'm not sure if I can use Headspace while reading through this meditation book or if they won't jive well. My initial take away from my first meditation session is that I don't tend to have a ton of unconscious stream of consciousness thoughts. However, I noticed I can focus on my breathing in meditation and still have a picture stuck in my mind. When I noticed that I tried to visualize the air going through my nose so that the picture was focused on the breathing as well. It's a learning process so I imagine this will change as I progress.
You answered your own question in your post. You have to focus on something that is meaningful to you. If that was work, maybe you should go back and do a little of that.
I suppose you are correct to some extent. At the moment I have no hobbies beyond hiking and reading. While hiking is meaningful to me, it doesn't cut the mustard as something that brings meaning to my life. At the moment I don't really know what is meaningful to me beyond the obvious (wife, family, friendships). Ideally I'd like to be able to be happy in my core without feeling compelled to "work" on something.
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Uhh... I don't know about all those self-help books. I'd stay as far as possible from self-help if I were you, or fighting depression. Overthinking your depression is the last thing you want. Do long walks, exercise, social meetups, your own projects if you want challenge, etc. Self-help books will just bring you down, you don't want to have anyone "teach you" stuff, make up your own path.
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Uhh... I don't know about all those self-help books. I'd stay as far as possible from self-help if I were you, or fighting depression. Overthinking your depression is the last thing you want. Do long walks, exercise, social meetups, your own projects if you want challenge, etc. Self-help books will just bring you down, you don't want to have anyone "teach you" stuff, make up your own path.
I'd agree with this sentiment, that you have to "be careful" in trying to "think your way out of a mental funk".
I've found that I have "cycles" of depressive periods. When I get in a blue mood, I can't think my way out of it, I have to get more social interaction, change my diet up (sometimes I think the cycles are started by a lack of a key vitamin or mineral), spend lots of time with family or just ride it out. I've tried to think my way out by recognizing the funk and then deciding NOT to be in a mental funk, it didn't work.... I do think that recognizing it IS the first step, if only to learn the triggers and how to best cope.
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I have not read anything even approaching philosophy since college. I suppose I'm not really all that certain of what I believe with respect to the ultimate end game. I guess my thoughts about needing to do something meaningful with my life imply that I don't believe it will simply continue in some fashion that retains my identity and cognitive function after I die. I will try to look into stoicism. Picking up a lot of reading material lately!
Could it be that all this free time has allowed you to consider this aspect of life? The whole "what's it all about anyway" side of it? We spend so much time and energy and mental cycles on/at work, maybe now that those cycles have been freed up, we have to really think about things that we get the "luxury" of ignoring when busy with work/life/raising kids etc.
As for stoic writings, the letters of Seneca and discourse of Epictetus are great places to start.
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Have you tried podcasts? I find them to be a really good way to stay mentally stimulated while being less isolating than reading.
Tim Ferris is a big fan of the stoics, and interviews interesting "world class performers" in a variety of fields. He was a bit too dude bro-ish when he first started, but has matured a lot in the last couple of years.
If you don't find his constant interruptions and self promotion annoying, James Altucher also interviews interesting people.
Malcolm Gladwell's newish podcast Revisionist History is also very though provoking.
Others I really enjoy:
Hidden Brain
Freakonomics
Planet Money
Happier
+1 for podcasts. I find my most enjoyable day to be one where I plug in my single earbud headphones, put on some ear muffs over to block noise and then spend a day doing manual labor like mowing/cleaning the yard or building a deck.
I use a cheap cell phone with a paid for APP (so much better than the free apps with adds!) and I que up several days worth of shows from various names like those above and I get to work.
I'd also recommend hard core history by Dan Carlin and This American Life (some deep stories on there).
Also, my local library lends audiobooks online, you don't have to go into the library, as long as you have an account you can download them from their electronic library website. The beauty of it is (and I'm not advocating piracy here) is that you can delete the auto generated playlist and the item won't expire (providing they are using the overdrive software, I usually just copy the folder to another partition, then delete the overdrive playlist and add it to my "to listen to" folder) that way you can "store up" a few for those long hikes, days in the yard, or long drives.
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Don't dismiss self-help books too quickly. I have found enormous value in "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. Read and think through the basic ideas without getting hung up on it being dated in parts. The basic concepts are solid. As well as The Magic of Thinking Big by Dr. David Schwartz. Finally, Tim Ferriss is into stoicism, and his podcast is great, besides the over bro-ish nature of it at times! Good luck with this, I'm going through a little of this too right now.
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Don't dismiss self-help books too quickly. I have found enormous value in "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. Read and think through the basic ideas without getting hung up on it being dated in parts. The basic concepts are solid. As well as The Magic of Thinking Big by Dr. David Schwartz. Finally, Tim Ferriss is into stoicism, and his podcast is great, besides the over bro-ish nature of it at times! Good luck with this, I'm going through a little of this too right now.
Self-help, interesting concept. You are reading these self help books, but it's not self help, it is someone else's idea of what would be better for you. You are relying on the idea that they know what is better for you. How could I judge that when I don't even know what is better for myself?
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Re meditation - https://www.dhamma.org . I did a 10 day silent meditation retreat (it's for beginners) and it was really good for me. It is by donation only, with no suggested price. That said, I really need to meditate more.
I FIRED 7 weeks ago and it's a little rough. My anxiety has definitely gone up. A lot. Right now trying to work through it. It's frustrating - I want to be having the time of my life, but I am not. I am holding onto the idea that I will feel different in 6 months and a year.
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I have not read anything even approaching philosophy since college. I suppose I'm not really all that certain of what I believe with respect to the ultimate end game. I guess my thoughts about needing to do something meaningful with my life imply that I don't believe it will simply continue in some fashion that retains my identity and cognitive function after I die. I will try to look into stoicism. Picking up a lot of reading material lately!
Could it be that all this free time has allowed you to consider this aspect of life? The whole "what's it all about anyway" side of it? We spend so much time and energy and mental cycles on/at work, maybe now that those cycles have been freed up, we have to really think about things that we get the "luxury" of ignoring when busy with work/life/raising kids etc.
As for stoic writings, the letters of Seneca and discourse of Epictetus are great places to start.
I found that Thoreau, followed by Whitman, followed by the Bhagavad Gita had a profound impact on my philosophical outlook. Prior to these 3 I'd say my outlook was profoundly self centered and selfish. Now it's expanded to be much more benevolent and greater generosity of spirit. Whitman, in particular, was influential here.
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The book on fear that I picked up really speaks to me. It was written by Thich Nhat Hanh, a Zen master and Buddhist monk. Naturally, it's concepts pull heavily from Buddhism but the words really hit home with regard to my specific experience of a form of the fear of dying as I go to sleep at night. A passage that hit me particularly hard was "The present is free from fear," which is true. Fear is always about something that has yet to happen. And since we really can't live anywhere but in the present, we can really live without fear. I don't know anything about Buddhism but I would assume based on what I've read so far that it is very big on meditation and mindfulness. I may have to read a little more about Buddhism.
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Thich Nhat Hanh is wonderful. The best summary of classical Buddhism I know is "What the Buddha Taught," by Walpola Rahula.
I think actually you've got at least three things going on: simple boredom (you don't really have quite enough to do) -- and a psychological predisposition to anxiety (guessing from your history) -- and really running up against "what am I living for in the first place?" -- which is really the same question as "what will my death mean?" They all kind of converge on you when the lights go out.
A good meditation teacher and a group to sit with can be really valuable. There's a lot of ways to get muddled up about meditation, and a good teacher can save you a lot of time and distress. I tend to look to the old established traditions -- Japanese Zen or Tibetan -- they're simultaneously a lot more relaxed and a lot more rigorous. One of the things that will surprise you, if you're used to Western religions, is that nobody will give a damn whether you believe anything or not: no one's going to ask you to swear to anything or promise allegiance to anything.
I don't know if I'm a Buddhist any more -- I would have called myself one ten years ago. Maybe I am. But anyway, I know that learning to meditate was the biggest favor I ever did myself. It had a huge impact on my life, and totally for the good.
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Don't dismiss self-help books too quickly. I have found enormous value in "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. Read and think through the basic ideas without getting hung up on it being dated in parts. The basic concepts are solid. As well as The Magic of Thinking Big by Dr. David Schwartz. Finally, Tim Ferriss is into stoicism, and his podcast is great, besides the over bro-ish nature of it at times! Good luck with this, I'm going through a little of this too right now.
Self-help, interesting concept. You are reading these self help books, but it's not self help, it is someone else's idea of what would be better for you. You are relying on the idea that they know what is better for you. How could I judge that when I don't even know what is better for myself?
Perhaps think of these books as helpers for you to live a better, happier life. Keep an open mind about these. MMM had this to say about one of them http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/28/weekend-edition-the-magic-of-thinking-big/
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If you like the Bhuddism stuff, I suggest you read The Dhammapadda : http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrndhamma.pdf
The Dhammapadda is a collection of proverbs that you can meditate on for a looooong time. I think I've been going back to it for nearly a decade! Let me tell you this, what I understood the first time I read it was exactly what I needed. What I understood when I read it last week, it was exactly what I needed. Somehow these quotes speak to a beginner and a more advanced meditator all at the same time. It's kind of incredible, actually.
Just a thing, I'm Catholic but the Bhuddism stuff spoke to me in a way all the Catholic stuff did not. Maybe it had to do with all the cultural baggage attached to being Catholic. Anyway, I say that because getting caught in "which religion" is a side trap that is best ignored. Take the wisdom where you can get it!
Another thing to check out, although it might be a little advanced is Ram Dass. Here is a lecture that I bet speaks to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orb8cGSqS-A
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If you like the Bhuddism stuff, I suggest you read The Dhammapadda : http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrndhamma.pdf
The Dhammapadda is a collection of proverbs that you can meditate on for a looooong time. I think I've been going back to it for nearly a decade! Let me tell you this, what I understood the first time I read it was exactly what I needed. What I understood when I read it last week, it was exactly what I needed. Somehow these quotes speak to a beginner and a more advanced meditator all at the same time. It's kind of incredible, actually.
Just a thing, I'm Catholic but the Bhuddism stuff spoke to me in a way all the Catholic stuff did not. Maybe it had to do with all the cultural baggage attached to being Catholic. Anyway, I say that because getting caught in "which religion" is a side trap that is best ignored. Take the wisdom where you can get it!
Another thing to check out, although it might be a little advanced is Ram Dass. Here is a lecture that I bet speaks to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orb8cGSqS-A
I was also surprised at how strongly the words spoke to me, which I've never really felt with Christian texts (raised Christian). It felt like faith by logic, as opposed to Christian texts which to me feel more like faith by faith. As an analytical person explanations that are more based on logic strike more of a chord with me. I will definitely take the wisdom where I can get it, and if a spiritual journey occurs some time later that's okay too.
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I came across this today:
“There is a myth, sometimes widespread, that a person need only do inner work…that a man is entirely responsible for his own problems; and that to cure himself, he need only change himself…The fact is, a person is so formed by his surroundings, that his state of harmony depends entirely on his harmony with his surroundings.”
-- Christopher Alexander, The Timeless Way of Building
I have found truth in this, getting out of the house and interacting with others at least once a week keeps me in a much more positive mental place.
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Don't dismiss self-help books too quickly. I have found enormous value in "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. Read and think through the basic ideas without getting hung up on it being dated in parts. The basic concepts are solid. As well as The Magic of Thinking Big by Dr. David Schwartz. Finally, Tim Ferriss is into stoicism, and his podcast is great, besides the over bro-ish nature of it at times! Good luck with this, I'm going through a little of this too right now.
Self-help, interesting concept. You are reading these self help books, but it's not self help, it is someone else's idea of what would be better for you. You are relying on the idea that they know what is better for you. How could I judge that when I don't even know what is better for myself?
Perhaps think of these books as helpers for you to live a better, happier life. Keep an open mind about these. MMM had this to say about one of them http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/28/weekend-edition-the-magic-of-thinking-big/
I am familiar with the book and of MMM's recommendation of it. As soon as you have the idea that you want to better yourself you're simply falling into another game, as you are telling yourself that there is something to be better about, but you are the one judging that. If you knew what is better then you would be it already. If there is something wrong with you that needs bettering you are the one doing the bettering, do you see the game? It's still you, the ego. When you want to better yourself and choose some teacher, guru, MMM, book, or whatever you are still the one judging that that person knows what is better, it is a kind of trap. The reason why you want to be better is the reason why you aren't.
There is the old story of Buddha telling people that the reason for suffering is that they desire. So the people did everything the could to rid themselves of desire, but no matter what they did they couldn't. So they went back to Buddha and said they did everything they could to get rid of desire but they can't. And the Buddha said, oh but now you are desiring not to desire.
You can't get rid of desire because as soon as you try you are desiring to not desire. Just like as soon as you try to better yourself you can't because you are the one doing the bettering.
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You can't get rid of desire because as soon as you try you are desiring to not desire. Just like as soon as you try to better yourself you can't because you are the one doing the bettering.
I find meditation very helpful with this quandary.
When I first started, it was tough to quiet the mind. The more you try not to think, the more random and "out of left field" ideas pop into the stream of consciousness. I used the calm app to "learn" how to meditate and I follow it's method, to simply recognize that I'm thinking and to say to to myself "thinking" and shut it down and "push" the thought out of my mind without judging or "keeping score" or otherwise beating myself up.
I think the same can be done with desires. As someone who has tried to reduce desires for material possessions and earning more money just to have big numbers on a website (online bank account, we don't even strive for big numbers on a piece of paper anymore ((bank statement)) now it's just a game to see who can put up the largest numbers on a screenshot, just like most viggie games) I still find myself appreciating finer homes and a nicely maintained classic car etc. I don't beat myself up for appreciating those things, sometimes even desiring them, I just recognize/acknowledge the desire/thought and push it along and move on with my life. I think that process can be used for many situations.
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I hope your nights are getting calmer, Mr. Green. Mine is not a logical engineer brain, but a creative one and I see your thoughts and anxiety about 'death' as being not about the end of life, but the end of a career. Death in dreams is usually about change. I think you are struggling with a transition, that's all. Anxiety sucks, I get it too, and always at night, but this tumultuous time is also an immeasurably positive one. Yes, the 'engineer who works 80 hours a week and builds things and earns a salary' part of you has died a natural death. You didn't kill him. He can be resurrected at any time. But there's another Mr. Green emerging. I think you're in a bit of a gestation and possibly painful birthing period as you start to shape this new life. I don't want to give advice, all I can suggest is you stop overthinking it. Relax, accept that some nights you'll have anxiety and for some reason it's part of the process. You will come through to something new and it will be amazing. Have faith in yourself.
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Regarding problem solving, the ultimate goal of meditation is to solve the source of all of humanity’s problems, our most intractable problem: the problem of life and death. Humanity is stuck on solving so many other problems related to comfort, convenience, and knowledge, but if you think about it, even the greatest comfort or convenience is based on conditions that are bound to change, and the most esoteric knowledge or cool, advanced technology is just a minuscule bit of the infinite picture. And it seems that no matter how much comfort, convenience, knowledge, or technology we have, there’s still a sense of anxiety because the basic problem of life and death remains.
A good meditation teacher and a group to sit with can be really valuable. There's a lot of ways to get muddled up about meditation, and a good teacher can save you a lot of time and distress. I tend to look to the old established traditions -- Japanese Zen or Tibetan -- they're simultaneously a lot more relaxed and a lot more rigorous. One of the things that will surprise you, if you're used to Western religions, is that nobody will give a damn whether you believe anything or not: no one's going to ask you to swear to anything or promise allegiance to anything.
+1
Most people get bored with meditation because they don't sit long enough, intently enough, or with an effective enough technique to get a taste of what it’s ultimately about. It’s more than just learning to relax to feel better, though that’s certainly a benefit. But wait…there’s more! and doing enough meditation to begin to see that can be difficult and quite uncomfortable, mentally and physically. Working with a teacher and sitting for extended periods of time with a group may be necessary to advance in meditation, as the formal setting keeps you on your cushion far longer that you’d stay on it at home. At home it’s just too easy to stop when you feel bored, sleepy, or your legs start hurting!
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I think humans have to work because meaning comes from service to others and from creativity. The beauty of FI is the freedom to do exactly the work you want to do in a way that suits you according to your skills, inclinations and temperament. A wonderful, wonderful gift. Take it and use it or face the void!
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I think humans have to work because meaning comes for service to others and creativity. The beauty of FI is the freedom to do exactly the work you want to do in a way that suits you according to your skills, inclinations and temperament. A wonderful, wonderful gift. Take it and use it or face the void!
This seems true in many respects; however, as a counterpoint, note that people who work to serve others can also struggle with depression and other mental ailments. Mother Theresa, for example:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/135-43.0.html
Ten years after her death, a new book of Mother Teresa's personal letters illustrates a profound and private spiritual struggle— much of it unknown to the world that would come to embrace her as a living saint.
Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light, to be released Sept. 4, is a collection of Teresa's personal letters to her spiritual advisers. For the most part, they are letters she never intended to become public and, in fact, had asked to be destroyed.
In one letter from 1962, Teresa even mused about how her sense of spiritual desolation might impact the bid—now under way at the Vatican—to make her a saint.
"If I ever become a Saint—I will surely be one of 'darkness,'" she wrote. "I will continually be absent from Heaven—to (light) the light of those in darkness on earth."
The book will likely challenge the characterization many people had of Teresa as a simple, pious woman, said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest who wrote the best-selling My Life With the Saints.
"I think that this is a real treasure for not only believers, but even doubters and skeptics," Martin said. "I think it also makes her much more accessible to the everyday believer. It shows that even the saints struggle in their spiritual lives and that they don't have it easier than we do. They sometimes have it harder than we do."
Creative people have problems, too:
http://unisoultheory.com/index.php/2016/07/29/depression-anxiety-creativity/
We are all familiar with the stereotype of the moody teenage artist. She wears all black, feels tremendous amounts of angst, and, while very bright, struggles to find joy in a world full of tragedies. While many creative people find this stereotype to be offensive, there is growing scientific evidence that it may, in fact, have some merit. Modern research suggests that highly creative minds are at an increased risk for depression due to their insightful and highly empathetic worldview.
Nancy Andreasen, author of The Creative Brain: The Science of Genius, believes that creative minds are less likely to easily adapt when confronted with new situations. This is because they are more skeptical of the information given to them by authority figures. They would rather make up their own minds. This is not only much more difficult to do, but much more time-intensive when trying to adjust to a new environment. They are creating their own ideas rather than blindly adopting the ones put forth by society.
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Well, let's steer away from extreme service a la Mother Teresa, and extreme creativity too!
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I haven't had any problems for the last week. We've been in North Carolina staying with friends. Even though I'm home all day while my wife is working, the daily socialization with other adults and children helps. While we're here the days feel more structured because we help make dinner and other things that just help pass the time better since I'm unable to make any long term commitments for now. Back in Maryland it's just me and me wife and we don't really cool like our friends do so the days just feel emptier while my wife works. I think this problem will be self-correcting as we expect to move permanently in a couple weeks but I will continue to focus on meditation and other activities that improve my overall health.
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Ponyboy doesnt have any issues turning his brain off after work. He doesnt do much at work to begin with. Makes the day much more enjoyable not having many responsibilities.
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Any chance you have considered dropping the Rx meds, and trying CBD therapy or even MJ to see the results?
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Getting off caffeine was enormously helpful for me and my 'falling asleep' problems.
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Any chance you have considered dropping the Rx meds, and trying CBD therapy or even MJ to see the results?
I dropped the Lunesta and am completely off sleeping pills now because I thought it might be causing my back problems. I'm hesitant to go off the Wellbutrin because the last time I tapered off an SSRI I had a return of anxiety symptoms.
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Any chance you have considered dropping the Rx meds, and trying CBD therapy or even MJ to see the results?
I dropped the Lunesta and am completely off sleeping pills now because I thought it might be causing my back problems. I'm hesitant to go off the Wellbutrin because the last time I tapered off an SSRI I had a return of anxiety symptoms.
I understand your concern/s about weaning off of the SSRI's, and you have my best wishes toward you finding relief from your anxiety. If by chance someday you are not taking any SSRI's, sleep medications, etc, perhaps giving the CBD's a try may be very helpful. St John's Wort may also prove beneficial for you for anxiety and sleep issues, and perhaps Valerian root used for better sleep. I'll second the recommend to reduce or eliminate caffeine if you can, if you partake.
Lastly, Cannabis. When used properly, it can have a very profound, positive effect for sleeplessness and helping to quell anxiety. I know this may seem counter-productive, and I'm sure I'm not explaining anything you don't already know, just the same it can be very effective.
Anxiety is so insidious, and perhaps some of your back pain is directly related to this anxiety? I wish you sincere best of luck, in overcoming your challenging situation.
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...We're back and forth between two states, which has prohibited any attempts at an activity that is longer than two weeks. ...
Any chance you can change this?
That much travel can be really stressful. It can be hard to "have a life" when you're moving back and forth--even if it's to the same places.
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Went to psychologist recently about this very thing. She highly recommended practising mindfulness, which is learning to focus on the present, and what your senses are perceiving at any moment in time. Meditation is the training tool to learn how to do that.
Lots of resources online, including pretty much every second article on zenhabits.net.
Her specific recommendations were:
- Look for Jon Kabat Zinn's "Body Scan" meditation on youtube.
- Look for the book, "Full Catastrophe Living" by the same guy.
I haven't followed the program like I should, but the little bits I've done and have made a huge difference. Highly recommend.
Thank you for posting this. I've been reading the book off and on for the last few months and doing some of the meditations. It has been extremely illuminating and helped me to cope with some difficult situations lately.
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PTF...this is me in a nutshell.
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I would suggest taking a few quick evidence-questionnaires such as the GAD 7 and PHQ9: https://www.torbayandsouthdevon.nhs.uk/uploads/score-sheet-gad-7-anxiety-and-phq-9-depression.pdf
this would tell you if you have clinical depression or anxiety.
The only other consideration I can think of is physical fitness. This helps me a lot, and I think a lot of people. Getting a new fitness routine (like classes at the Y, or crossfit, or swimming club or something) I think could be helpful.
Cheers
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+++++1 for headspace, 10% happier or Sam Harris meditation app.
Also, check out the stoic philosophies, lots of good stuff on death.
Also, also, also, remember that you did not exist for a very long time, you will exist for a short period of time, and then you WON'T exist for a much longer time.
As others have said, we (humans) seem to crave struggle, growth, and movement. I have a quote on my "work desk" (I work a gimmick job from home) that basically says "you can say that we should strive to be content while standing still but that's bullshit, humans require action, if they don't have it, they will make it". While I strive to be content no matter when/where I am, I remember this quote and recognize that my humanity (in my opinion, the genes that are hard-wired in me and drive much/most of my behavior via sub-conscious mechanisms) requires me to continue to look for meaning (see Frankel's "Search for Meaning" for more).
Best of luck to you, I will reply to you in another form about another topic soon, now that I have some breathing room in my life.
Cheers!
Tim
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I had the same thing. To much thinking. I watched a lot of Sadhguru on YouTube and that helped with the Just Live part. I was missing things in my live where I was in a "flow". Meaning su bussy with living while doing things that I don't even have the time thinking about live because I am happy engaged and challenged.
I started designing deep strategy board games. Very mustachian hobby. You only need paper and pencils for prototypes.
I connected again with a good childhoof friend who is also on the same level intellactually. And we play strategy videogames together. And we have a huge strategic board game we continue a couple turns a week. We both love this game. And if i need to think about something I can think about what his moves going to be next week and how to react to them. I keep a physcall job as a truck driver pushing 500kg containers to activate me and interact with other people.
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Uhh... I don't know about all those self-help books. I'd stay as far as possible from self-help if I were you, or fighting depression. Overthinking your depression is the last thing you want. Do long walks, exercise, social meetups, your own projects if you want challenge, etc. Self-help books will just bring you down, you don't want to have anyone "teach you" stuff, make up your own path.
There is a lot of truth in geradc's comment. I wouldn't argue or say they are "wrong" but I would suggest that the books, along WITH meditation, moderating caffieene/drugs/alcohol, group meetups, exercise, and maybe even counseling, might be a good balance (and it sounds like you are working on these things).
The books alone, without any action, I would agree, that situation could be problematic. Often, we can't "think" our way out of the darkness/problem we are having since it was the same brain we are lugging around that "thought" it's way into the situation.
I will emphasize one of the points above and suggest tracking your daily routines/"inputs" and try to ID any of them that are problematic. Example, I've found that if I eat too late, I don't sleep well. If I don't sleep well, I have a rough day the next day, since I'm tired, I drink more coffee, the extra coffee makes me jittery and keeps me in my head more/longer, then I have a "darker" day and might eat poorly and late and then....
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I would agree with the meditation, exercise, and general overall care for your health. Funny thing for me is with formal meditation the more I try, the harder it is to obtain. It's almost as though I'm focusing too much on searching for a result rather than just being at peace with myself at that moment. I seem to do better being by myself in nature.
Have you considered doing volunteer work? Maybe you could offer free tutoring to local engineer students?
I'm my experience helping others has always been rewarding and I liked working with students. Teaching also stimulates the mind because you really have a good understanding of the material being discussed. You could just try it out by posting flyers or placing an ad on CL. Offering phone support would be a good way to try it out with little commitment on your part in case it didn't work out.
Right now my daughter and I are helping my son with pursuing a software dev career. She's helping with the technical parts and I'm helping with studying strategies as I have a background in teaching. Helping him is helping me feel good about myself and I'll bet my daughter is feeling the same way. Just a thought, good luck. :)
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My way of dealing with this is gardening and home renovations. Both are deeply addictive. We aren’t talking just put vinyl siding up or put out some petunias we are talking trying to figure out how best to detail your house and what plants are the most appropriate for you to plant in our era of invasive species and climate change. These are rabbit holes I’ve been in for two years and I love them!
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Have you tried joining some meetups? I find it that between library material, YouTube university, Netflix etc there is so much content out there to both learn/stimulate my mind and give me project ideas as well as relax my mind that it would take me many lifetimes to actually watch or learn all the stuff I am interested in. I am actually overwhelmed by all the stuff I could explore. I am usually busy with physical and social activities and of course every day living tasks.
Maybe you are experiencing this too and it’s paralyzing your thoughts or turning them to rumination? Sometimes when we have too many choices we experience anxiety. I think the key is to stay so busy with a myriad of activities and exploratory pursuits that there is no time to ruminate. Maybe try to over schedule yourself for a few months and then you will welcome the less busy times and appreciate them when they happen. There is this expectation that we have to accomplish great things, climb Mt Everest etc now that you are FIREd. Nonsense. Just take the time to appreciate this freedom you have your way by just doing projects, exploring, go to Meetups, meet people, and just plain enjoy your time and smell the flowers along the way. Then you will feel this amazing inner peace and satisfaction and be even more grateful than ever of your newfound freedom. Keep us posted Mr Green. You have arrived at your destination, it’s the journey now that counts.
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IMO, (this always works for me) read a book, maybe any book
Latest book I enjoyed is "The Rosie Project"
I read quite a few books recently. I can burn through a book in a day or so. I love to read but after too much it becomes negative for me because it begins to feel like something I'm doing just to pass the time, like I can't find anything better to do. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Are these "Purposeful" books? I mean, are they books where you are supposed to learn something, improve yourself in some way, or achieve one thing or another? If they are, I would suggest trying something else. Read literature. It does not have to be one of the snooty "great books," but consider something substantive. Garcia Marquez and Allende will show you the beauty of quirk, Jeanette Winterson will pull on emotions with great language, Shakespeare comedies will expose human foibles, Phillip Roth will hit you squarely with a side of masculinity that we often don't discuss. The list goes on. NPR publishes a curated list of the books their people enjoyed over the previous year, and the picks tend to me magnificent. Reading for pleasure is a joy a lot of adults have forgotten about, but to encounter great language and/or great stories is really transformative and a great antidote to a sense of disconnectedness.
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Are these "Purposeful" books? I mean, are they books where you are supposed to learn something, improve yourself in some way, or achieve one thing or another? If they are, I would suggest trying something else. Read literature. It does not have to be one of the snooty "great books," but consider something substantive.
That is a wonderful suggestion.
I listen to 20+ podcasts and as they continue to evolve several of them are turning into book recommendation machines. There are many folks out there following the "Tim Ferris" model [sell stuff online, start a podcast, write and sell books, attempt to influence the purchase choices of others, link everything in attempt to earn from affiliate links etc.]. Tim may not have started this (he probably didn't, he simply refined it for a new audience and put it into words that would resonate with them) but he's created an easy to follow roadmap for many. When you stand back and see the forest from the trees, and the business model/cookie cutter stamp many are following, it reduces the impact of their message when you see the "business" behind what they are doing (not judging them, simply giving my POV).
All of that out of the way, since many are following this model, they are constantly churning out books that lose quality over time since they repeat their key/core message many times, often due to the fact that they have ran out of new ideas but still crave the income stream/advances (Gretchin Rubin anyone?).
With that in mind, I think ignoring the "new stuff" and focusing on the classics (which is the suggestion of several other successful folks) is important. We can spin ourselves in circles reading everything "new" and recent, and we simply don't have that much time anyway (to read the good books AND keep up with the new stuff etc. etc. etc.) just like we don't have time to watch all the available TV, listen to all the podcasts (which become more and more like TV over time, except for a few of them like Ughhh Yeah Dude, the Comedy button, Hard-core history etc.) we don't have time to read all the new books being hawked by the industry (book industry/influencer industry/self-help industry etc.) nor should we try.
Sooooo, I think I'll start another thread where we can ID the books that are KEY to concepts and point the way where one might go to seek knowledge and understanding about a particular topic. Then, once one has read the "core" books, they might add in the "new hotness" (I've got to say, I was disappointed in atomic habits, thank goodness I waited and got it from the library rather than paying for that, I was NOT impressed but was ALMOST swayed by the marketing around that book, soooooo much hype for a re-packaging of ideas, which I get, because you might have to re-state things so the current culture will listen/get it but damn... so much hype, so little substance...).
Example:
Foundational Book Key Idea Author Alternatives?
Your money or your life Be mindful of trading life for cash Robbins/Dominguez ???
Travels with Charlie We are all alike, be fine with YOU Steinbeck ???
Any interest in this list/discussion, trying to "drill down" to the key/core books that others could reference easily?
My thinking is we keep it in this part of the forums since the concept comes up fairly regularly and we (FIRED, close to FIRE, "what it look like after FIRE") might have a slightly different view that may not add value to others.
The great thing about the boards is that if I do start a new discussion around this, the vote of the crowd will tell us if it was a good idea or not.
Ok, sorry for the long post/rant, I love books and talking about them. Going to check out Phillip Roth now!
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Are these "Purposeful" books? I mean, are they books where you are supposed to learn something, improve yourself in some way, or achieve one thing or another? If they are, I would suggest trying something else. Read literature. It does not have to be one of the snooty "great books," but consider something substantive.
That is a wonderful suggestion.
[...]
Ok, sorry for the long post/rant, I love books and talking about them. Going to check out Phillip Roth now!
Why, thank you! My favorite Roth is American Pastoral. The Human Stain is also good.
And Steinbeck! Of course! I don't think a bad Steinbeck exists!
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With that in mind, I think ignoring the "new stuff" and focusing on the classics (which is the suggestion of several other successful folks) is important. We can spin ourselves in circles reading everything "new" and recent, and we simply don't have that much time anyway (to read the good books AND keep up with the new stuff etc. etc. etc.) just like we don't have time to watch all the available TV, listen to all the podcasts (which become more and more like TV over time, except for a few of them like Ughhh Yeah Dude, the Comedy button, Hard-core history etc.) we don't have time to read all the new books being hawked by the industry (book industry/influencer industry/self-help industry etc.) nor should we try.
That is the literary equivalent of the "low information diet". I've been doing exactly that for the past several years and I must say it's quite wonderful.
As a culture, I think we push so much information to everyone all the time, which results in everyone feeling overwhelmed most/all of the time. Take a step back. Instead of watching the news, read a history book. Instead of reading whatever the latest "hot ideas" are, check out what some of the great works from the past have to say. I promise you that Kafka (or Hugo or Dostoevsky, or.....) are better writers than Tim Ferris.
Also check out The Great Courses. I know that here in Denver, the public library gives you access to a website called Kanopy that has ALL of the Great Courses (audio and video) to stream for free, just need a library card.
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That is the literary equivalent of the "low information diet". I've been doing exactly that for the past several years and I must say it's quite wonderful.
As a culture, I think we push so much information to everyone all the time, which results in everyone feeling overwhelmed most/all of the time. Take a step back. Instead of watching the news, read a history book. Instead of reading whatever the latest "hot ideas" are, check out what some of the great works from the past have to say. I promise you that Kafka (or Hugo or Dostoevsky, or.....) are better writers than Tim Ferris.
Also check out The Great Courses. I know that here in Denver, the public library gives you access to a website called Kanopy that has ALL of the Great Courses (audio and video) to stream for free, just need a library card.
Good points. I follow a low-information diet in most cases but had not thought to put the idea to use in books (they add so much more value than other forms of media... until they don't...). I have often been a sucker for good marketing around a book and I have a theory about some of the "must read" suggestions by many in the "influencer" space... anyone else notice how many of the "you must read this book" are NOT the classics and how many of them are NOT available at the local library... I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but seeing this happen time and time again (You must read THIS book, I check the library, not available in any form but ohhhhh.... look.... amazon just "happens" to have it... I know, I know, I know, print on demand world and all but is it really... scratches chin...) has me looking for ulterior motives.
Why, thank you! My favorite Roth is American Pastoral. The Human Stain is also good.
And Steinbeck! Of course! I don't think a bad Steinbeck exists!
I have not read all of Steinbeck but... damn that man can write. The clear prose the conveys so much... His "flow" may be un-surpassed. Steven King shows it in many works (you start reading and forget you are reading because the writing is done so well...) but, as has been stated, the "great books" have a much higher success rate at this than much of that being produced/hawked/marketed to us today/daily.
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That is the literary equivalent of the "low information diet". I've been doing exactly that for the past several years and I must say it's quite wonderful.
As a culture, I think we push so much information to everyone all the time, which results in everyone feeling overwhelmed most/all of the time. Take a step back. Instead of watching the news, read a history book. Instead of reading whatever the latest "hot ideas" are, check out what some of the great works from the past have to say. I promise you that Kafka (or Hugo or Dostoevsky, or.....) are better writers than Tim Ferris.
Also check out The Great Courses. I know that here in Denver, the public library gives you access to a website called Kanopy that has ALL of the Great Courses (audio and video) to stream for free, just need a library card.
Good points. I follow a low-information diet in most cases but had not thought to put the idea to use in books (they add so much more value than other forms of media... until they don't...). I have often been a sucker for good marketing around a book and I have a theory about some of the "must read" suggestions by many in the "influencer" space... anyone else notice how many of the "you must read this book" are NOT the classics and how many of them are NOT available at the local library... I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but seeing this happen time and time again (You must read THIS book, I check the library, not available in any form but ohhhhh.... look.... amazon just "happens" to have it... I know, I know, I know, print on demand world and all but is it really... scratches chin...) has me looking for ulterior motives.
I find that having a "backward looking focus" works very well in almost all areas. Books, movies, TV - for all of them you can cut through all the crap by NOT asking "What current book/movie/TV should I be reading/watching" and change it to, "Which movie/tv/book from 5 years ago is still worth checking out?" Those things have started to stand the test of time - make room for them.
Having a "what's current, what's hot" focus makes it too easy to get caught up in hype and spending your most precious resource (time) on stuff that's not really worthwhile.
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Two retirees that I know, FIL and his new GF, don't turn their mind off, but do a lot. He always has a building project. His previous was building a wood strip kayak. His current is building an electric guitar. She is more into organizing and being in committees that represent elders. They both feel that they use their brains.
But indeed, mindfulness might help you to not drive your brain into exhaustion all the time.
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My brain had slowly turned itself off in the job I retired from with a pension at 51. It was depressing. When I took my retirement job, a real challenge with a multitude of problems to solve, 7 months ago, my brain woke back up!
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This by no means is an "Engineer issue" as I was not an Engineer was a self employed business owner and sufferd/suffer through exactly the same things when I fire'd. Most of the things that help have been answered here by others. I found that long walks really clear the mind. Meditation for sure. Working out effects at least for me differently than Walking. Pick an affirmation to say over an over during walking or working out. Social interaction for sure with friends and creating or having a hobby. Like you my first or second year I was hammering away at books and it just became a time filler its wasnt enough. The more different things you fill your day with I personally feel is the key. It wasnt till the summer I started doing some side gigs and now flipping a house where i not only am having good social interaction outside of family but feel constructive that I truly feel super happy in being Fire'd.
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Since this thread was resurected I'll post an update. This issue disappeared fairly quickly over the first few months of FIRE for me. By a year in I was actually shocked at how okay I was with not accomplishing anything significant during my day. I'm now pushing 2.5 years in and this is all in the distant past for me, like another life. I think it's just part of the transition. My brain was used to having constant focus and it needed to be trained not to need that. It wasn't a problem but the process was uncomfortable because it was something new. But just like anything new in life, that is how we grow. I couldn't be happier with my post-work life at this point.
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So glad to hear it!
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I know there are a lot of engineers here and I think this issue might be more prevalent in "thinkers" than the general population. Maybe someone has some helpful advice I haven't heard yet.
I'm generally a happy person but when I have moments of deep reflection I can't help but feel like there is something eating away at my core, like a dark undercurrent because I'm no longer focused on anything that is meaningful to me. I have these bouts where I become fixated on that and it just really jacks up my day.
I have a hard time believing that it's anxiety because I don't really have much to be anxious right now, though I am still on anti-anxiety medication from issues I had earlier this year. However these feelings of wanting to focus on something meaningful have been rattling around up there for years. There are times when I pursue activities that are physically exerting because it's the only thing that seems to shut my brain down, put me in "machine mode."
Finding something meaningful to focus my energy on would be nice but I would really love to figure out how to change my thinking instead. I'd love to be able to be happy just existing, in a healthy body. I think maybe I just ruminate too much and I don't really know how to turn it off.
Have any other FIRE'ees had this problem?
I'm an inveterate daydreamer (pleasant ruminations) so I've not had the problem.