So..... I guess we are done here?

[Metalcat]

Why can't the lesbians stay married?

I think it's more that women drive divorce rates. Divorce rates rose when women had more financial capacity and independence to leave marriages, that's when the rates started sky rocketing.

So it would seem that women are more likely to leave marriages than men in general.

I know this has been what I've seen in the couples I've known who divorced.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

The divorce rate is high. Is it really any higher for early retirees?

It is a common refrain that retirement is a major life event and requires preparation and adjustment for both the retiree and spouse.  I can see arguments for and against early retirement being worse.  Unfortunately, it is hard to untangle FIRE from SAHP, many times a male stay at home parent claims the FIRE mantle (while the spouse continues to work) and, because this is a fairly mainstream lifestyle, there is no significant impact on the marriage.   

The latest data released in 2021 from the U.S. Census Bureau found that while the overall divorce rate in America currently hovers at around 34 percent, the percentage of adults who divorce between the ages of 55 and 64 is statistically highest, at 43 percent.

[Dicey]

...Gay people make up less than 10% of the US population, and only one in ten gay people marries (compared to more than 50% of straight people)...

Citation please?

[Herbert Derp]

The divorce rate is high. Is it really any higher for early retirees?

Nobody knows.  How early is "early"?  How high is "high"?  The rate in the US has been falling for years and is at the lowest in decades.

I suspect that the divorce rate for early retirees isn't all that different from the normal divorce rate. Unfortunately, divorce rates are such that given any population, we are bound to see many divorced people. So I guess my point is that divorces in the FIRE community shouldn't been seen as some sort of damning thing that condemns the movement, rather it is something to be expected and taken for granted.

...Gay people make up less than 10% of the US population, and only one in ten gay people marries (compared to more than 50% of straight people)...

Citation please?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/329975/one-lgbt-americans-married-sex-spouse.aspx

According to Gallup's research:

About one in 10 LGBT adults in the U.S. (9.6%) are married to a same-sex spouse, with a slightly smaller proportion (7.1%) living with a same-sex domestic partner. Half of LGBT adults have never been married, while 11.4% are married to an opposite-sex spouse and 9.5% are either divorced or separated.

Overall, less than 1% of U.S. adults are married to a same-sex spouse. The greatest percentage of Americans, 47.7%, are married to an opposite-sex spouse.

The proportion of LGBT people who are "Single/Never married" (50.5%) is more than double that of straight people (22.9%). Also, it seems more gay people are married to an opposite sex spouse (11.4%) than to a same sex spouse (9.6%). How bizarre.

[Vashy]

The divorce rate is high. Is it really any higher for early retirees?

Nobody knows.  How early is "early"?  How high is "high"?  The rate in the US has been falling for years and is at the lowest in decades.

I suspect that the divorce rate for early retirees isn't all that different from the normal divorce rate. Unfortunately, divorce rates are such that given any population, we are bound to see many divorced people. So I guess my point is that divorces in the FIRE community shouldn't been seen as some sort of damning thing that condemns the movement, rather it is something to be expected and taken for granted.

...Gay people make up less than 10% of the US population, and only one in ten gay people marries (compared to more than 50% of straight people)...

Citation please?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/329975/one-lgbt-americans-married-sex-spouse.aspx

According to Gallup's research:

About one in 10 LGBT adults in the U.S. (9.6%) are married to a same-sex spouse, with a slightly smaller proportion (7.1%) living with a same-sex domestic partner. Half of LGBT adults have never been married, while 11.4% are married to an opposite-sex spouse and 9.5% are either divorced or separated.

Overall, less than 1% of U.S. adults are married to a same-sex spouse. The greatest percentage of Americans, 47.7%, are married to an opposite-sex spouse.

The proportion of LGBT people who are "Single/Never married" (50.5%) is more than double that of straight people (22.9%). Also, it seems more gay people are married to an opposite sex spouse (11.4%) than to a same sex spouse (9.6%). How bizarre.

Only bizarre if you count bisexuals as "gay".

[Herbert Derp]

Only bizarre if you count bisexuals as "gay".

Ah, now it makes sense. I didn't realize those statistics included bisexuals in heterosexual marriages. Gallup explains it further down in their article.

Notably, same-sex marriages are largely confined to gay, lesbian or transgender adults. Only 1.0% of bisexual adults -- who comprise the largest segment of the LGBT population -- report being married to a same-sex spouse. Meanwhile, 17.2% of bisexual adults are married to a spouse of the opposite sex, which explains why LGBT adults overall are somewhat more likely to be married to an opposite-sex spouse than to someone of the same gender.

[Dicey]

...Gay people make up less than 10% of the US population, and only one in ten gay people marries (compared to more than 50% of straight people)...

Citation please?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/329975/one-lgbt-americans-married-sex-spouse.aspx

According to Gallup's research:

About one in 10 LGBT adults in the U.S. (9.6%) are married to a same-sex spouse, with a slightly smaller proportion (7.1%) living with a same-sex domestic partner. Half of LGBT adults have never been married, while 11.4% are married to an opposite-sex spouse and 9.5% are either divorced or separated.

Overall, less than 1% of U.S. adults are married to a same-sex spouse. The greatest percentage of Americans, 47.7%, are married to an opposite-sex spouse.

The proportion of LGBT people who are "Single/Never married" (50.5%) is more than double that of straight people (22.9%). Also, it seems more gay people are married to an opposite sex spouse (11.4%) than to a same sex spouse (9.6%). How bizarre.

From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.
.

[GilesMM]

...
From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.
.

Do we know what fraction of gays retire early?  And then divorce?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...
From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.
.

Do we know what fraction of gays retire early?  And then divorce?

3

[TreeLeaf]

...
From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.
.

Do we know what fraction of gays retire early?  And then divorce?

3

Like - 3% or 3 in 10,000 or just...3 people. ?

Maybe if we had a poll here we could extrapolate the results to the general population assuming we have enough early retired gay divorced people here to make the results statistically significant.

[iris lily]

...Gay people make up less than 10% of the US population, and only one in ten gay people marries (compared to more than 50% of straight people)...

Citation please?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/329975/one-lgbt-americans-married-sex-spouse.aspx

According to Gallup's research:

About one in 10 LGBT adults in the U.S. (9.6%) are married to a same-sex spouse, with a slightly smaller proportion (7.1%) living with a same-sex domestic partner. Half of LGBT adults have never been married, while 11.4% are married to an opposite-sex spouse and 9.5% are either divorced or separated.

Overall, less than 1% of U.S. adults are married to a same-sex spouse. The greatest percentage of Americans, 47.7%, are married to an opposite-sex spouse.

The proportion of LGBT people who are "Single/Never married" (50.5%) is more than double that of straight people (22.9%). Also, it seems more gay people are married to an opposite sex spouse (11.4%) than to a same sex spouse (9.6%). How bizarre.

From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.
.

I think it would be lovely if we could get any number of sociological data in a factual form we would all agree on.

[GilesMM]

There could be a couple more factors crushing the forum. 


One is the proliferation of journals.  The site had very few journals early on but they have nearly taken over the content.  Most people who come for early retirement content may not initially be interested in reading through journals (some of which are already hundreds or thousands of entries).  I, for one, have no interest in the journal section.


Two is an issue common on many fora and that is the tendency for a handful of users to do most of the talking.  This gets worse as the participation falls as it seems like everything other entry in many threads is from the same one or two users.  If visitors are not so keen on those few voices, they may move along.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

3

Like - 3% or 3 in 10,000 or just...3 people. ?

Maybe if we had a poll here we could extrapolate the results to the general population assuming we have enough early retired gay divorced people here to make the results statistically significant.

Haha, I had the same thought.  Weekend before last I was a "special awarding judge" for the Science and Engineering Fair of Houston.  Jr. High and High School students/teams competing in the first round of an international STEM fair.  My rubric for grading had to be updated to dock a number of students for data sets of numbers without units.  It was clear they did work and collected data but one of the primary judging categories was on presentation/communication.  Overall, I was mighty impressed at the quality of science fair projects these days.  It would have been inconceivable to me in high school to do statistical regressions, t-tests, or to 3-D print models.  Lots of real world questions being asked and legitimate problems being explored for better solutions using the scientific method.  This youngest generation gets a lot of heat from my generation and the Boomers for being kind of "soft" but the schools are clearly doing something right.

[Herbert Derp]

There could be a couple more factors crushing the forum. 


One is the proliferation of journals.  The site had very few journals early on but they have nearly taken over the content.  Most people who come for early retirement content may not initially be interested in reading through journals (some of which are already hundreds or thousands of entries).  I, for one, have no interest in the journal section.

That’s interesting. I think the journals are the best part of this forum. All the discussion about the methodology of FIRE got stale many years ago. We all know how it works and what to do and there isn’t really much left to discuss. I haven’t had any inclination to discuss the nuts and bolts of saving for FIRE for almost ten years!

I think the much more important aspect to discuss is the why. Why FIRE, and what do we do with our lives when we FIRE? This is where the journals come in. I love that we have a place where we can go on journeys of self discovery and inspire each other as a group, exploring what FIRE truly means.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...
From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.

Do we know what fraction of gays retire early?  And then divorce?

3

I think people picked up on what I was trying to get at.  First off, getting the numbers would likely be subject to significant under-reporting.  The numbers tallied would then be subject to a lot of hidden 'self reporting' inaccuracies, either from misunderstanding the question or not being asked the right question.  Then we would need a trend over time, not just a number, to begin to understand it... 

Whether we like to admit it or not, people respond to incentives.  One great example of this is how few Norwegian couples marry.  Many live together, even had children together, but don't go to the trouble to get married.  Some of it might be cultural, but a big piece of the difference between the US and Norway is that women in the US want to be married before they have children, buy a house together, for healthcare reasons, etc.  There are a lot of legal and financial benefits and protections which incentivize this behavior, as well as the cultural aspect.  Norway, on the other hand, is egalitarian and much less litigious.  The couple enjoy the benefits of companionship, living under the same roof together, etc. but do not need the legal act of marriage to ensure their own FI, access to healthcare, support for kids, etc.

So where I was going with all this is that, it is very likely that FI also lowers the incentive to marry or remain married if you aren't happy.  A lot of unhappy couples stay together just because they can't afford to divorce.  So even knowing that the number of divorces increase for FIRE people vs. FD (financially dependent), I'm not sure the data matters. 

[Metalcat]

...
From the same article:

"These results are based on aggregated data from 2020 Gallup surveys, encompassing interviews with more than 15,000 U.S. adults"

"However, because of the growth in LGBT identification in recent years, coupled with the growth in the U.S. population more generally, the number of same-sex marriages has likely increased significantly. "

There are surveys and there are hard numbers, and there is the fact that gay humans have only been allowed to marry for a very short time. I would not bet any money on the accuracy of these numbers, much less quote them as factual.

Do we know what fraction of gays retire early?  And then divorce?

3

I think people picked up on what I was trying to get at.  First off, getting the numbers would likely be subject to significant under-reporting.  The numbers tallied would then be subject to a lot of hidden 'self reporting' inaccuracies, either from misunderstanding the question or not being asked the right question.  Then we would need a trend over time, not just a number, to begin to understand it... 

Whether we like to admit it or not, people respond to incentives.  One great example of this is how few Norwegian couples marry.  Many live together, even had children together, but don't go to the trouble to get married.  Some of it might be cultural, but a big piece of the difference between the US and Norway is that women in the US want to be married before they have children, buy a house together, for healthcare reasons, etc.  There are a lot of legal and financial benefits and protections which incentivize this behavior, as well as the cultural aspect.  Norway, on the other hand, is egalitarian and much less litigious.  The couple enjoy the benefits of companionship, living under the same roof together, etc. but do not need the legal act of marriage to ensure their own FI, access to healthcare, support for kids, etc.

So where I was going with all this is that, it is very likely that FI also lowers the incentive to marry or remain married if you aren't happy.  A lot of unhappy couples stay together just because they can't afford to divorce.  So even knowing that the number of divorces increase for FIRE people vs. FD (financially dependent), I'm not sure the data matters.

On the flip side, even just achieving FI as a couple typically requires a much higher level of communication and financial cooperation, and most couples cite financial conflicts and stress as major contributing factors to divorce.

So FIRE folks likely have more protective communication skills and less deleterious financial stresses and conflicts.

Also FIRE folks do have enormous financial incentive to stay together. A lot of staches aren't sufficient to support two separate people when cut in half.

People who are still working still have income and the option to keep working in response to a divorce. A divorced FIREe might have to go back to work, which would be a substantial consequence for a couple who so prioritized, y'know, not working.

Basically, you can look at it from a lot of different angles.

But at the end of the day, a lot of marriages aren't really built to last, and they're just waiting for the straw that will break the camel's back.

I know A LOT of couples in mediocre to bad marriages that are just ticking timebombs for divorce. So yeah, I could see retirement setting off a lot of those bombs, but for marriages that weren't going to make it anyway.

[SESW Tech]

I guess I'm confused - you haven't posted prior to this thread for 3 months.

What makes you post less?

Personally I post a lot less on MMM for a few reasons:

• I have a community of folks I discuss with elsewhere
• The forums have turned into a lamer version of bogleheads (if I want that type of advice, I'll just go there)
• There's only so many new things I can learn before just executing on them

Whats your list though?

What is the group of folks you mention in #1?

[Fru-Gal]

Been eating Tide pods for years, @GuitarStv, please check your assumptions

[Zamboni]

This has been an interesting discussion. I know arebelspy is still on here because he posts in the tradelines thread periodically when there is news to post.

I miss having more posts and replies from @Nords, but I suppose he is enjoying some tasty waves.

There are a lot fewer case studies than there were when I joined the forum. I will post one once I have some info, but those have definitely slowed done a lot, which means fewer people with really messed up finances are finding this board as a place to ask for advice. Maybe the blog has fallen to lower on the page on the search engines?

Finally, off topic, but I didn't realize the divorce rate varied so much from state to state! I find it really interesting that the divorce rate is higher in Utah than in NJ, for example.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...
Finally, off topic, but I didn't realize the divorce rate varied so much from state to state! I find it really interesting that the divorce rate is higher in Utah than in NJ, for example.

That's probably a better example of the point I was trying to make earlier.  In light of this data would I move from a higher divorce rate state to a lower one?  Of course not, so even knowing the data doesn't really matter.  If you want to be FIRE, even if that is correlated with a higher divorce rate / remaining single, I don't think you'll stop pursuing that goal...

[BlueMR2]

There are a lot fewer case studies than there were when I joined the forum. I will post one once I have some info, but those have definitely slowed done a lot, which means fewer people with really messed up finances are finding this board as a place to ask for advice. Maybe the blog has fallen to lower on the page on the search engines?

At this point it seems like there's enough history here that people can find someone in a similar situation that's already been discussed and just use those results.  Does seem like it's winding down.  Not because people are not interested or it's not important, but simply because there's not a lot left to discover and talk about.  I'm still popping in to check, but am rarely finding anything interesting anymore.

[GuitarStv]

Finally, off topic, but I didn't realize the divorce rate varied so much from state to state! I find it really interesting that the divorce rate is higher in Utah than in NJ, for example.

I thought it was curious too and was trying to think of reasons that it might split the way that it did.  Looked like the states with the highest divorce rates tended to be more conservative and religious, which is the opposite of what I'd have expected from the data.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Finally, off topic, but I didn't realize the divorce rate varied so much from state to state! I find it really interesting that the divorce rate is higher in Utah than in NJ, for example.

I thought it was curious too and was trying to think of reasons that it might split the way that it did.  Looked like the states with the highest divorce rates tended to be more conservative and religious, which is the opposite of what I'd have expected from the data.

Probably more enlightening to understand the differences in legal handling of divorce in each state.  I know people who specifically choose a state to divorce in…

[swashbucklinstache]

Finally, off topic, but I didn't realize the divorce rate varied so much from state to state! I find it really interesting that the divorce rate is higher in Utah than in NJ, for example.

I thought it was curious too and was trying to think of reasons that it might split the way that it did.  Looked like the states with the highest divorce rates tended to be more conservative and religious, which is the opposite of what I'd have expected from the data.

Probably more enlightening to understand the differences in legal handling of divorce in each state.  I know people who specifically choose a state to divorce in…

May be explained more by other factors. A quick Google says Utah average age of marriage around 24, nj around 29. Poverty levels may be a larger impact too?

[Nords]

I miss having more posts and replies from @Nords, but I suppose he is enjoying some tasty waves.

Thanks for the tag, @Zamboni!  I rotate among different forums to answer questions, especially for military families.  I’ve been doing this for over 25 years.

Believe it or not, in November 2014 (fourteen!) I stopped reading here every day and put this forum on my weekly check for keywords.  This is still my #2 favorite.

My current favorite forum (1-2 hours per day since late 2020) is Millionaire Money Mentors hosted by ESIMoney.  (This is not a pitch or an affiliate-- it’s just where my interest lies now.)  It’s the first time that I’ve ever paid to join a forum, and in a related coincidence I was shocked to confirm that there are no trolls, spammers, or haters.  There are no moderators and there’s not even an “ignore poster” feature. 

Ironically it’s the same issues that we discuss here, only $10x-$$100x.  It’s not about the money but rather the same investing questions and much more about behavioral financial psychology.  Just One More Year seems to be even stronger among these members than any other financial-independence forum I’ve seen.  In their defense (very little), some of them have been so good at creating wealth that they’ve never bothered to learn how to sustainably manage it.  It’s very much to their credit that they’ve joined the forum with questions about work/life balance, even if they have little interest in cutting back on work.

Nobody has planes or yachts, although a few are hardcore boat people.  Nobody admits to owning a Lamborghini, although there’s a perpetual thread about Teslas.  One has started their own property-management company to manage their rental properties (high-rise apartment buildings) while a couple more are doing very well in commercial properties.  Real-estate syndications are a popular topic, and ESIMoney has written about some of this on his site. 

My personal interests on “the other MMM forum” are estate planning, philanthropy, and gifting (progeny).  Last year my spouse started her Navy Reserve pension and we’re ramping up our spending for the rest of this decade to draw down our net worth.  We’re enjoying slow travel, while we still can.  We’re sharing some inheritances with our descendants now, while we’re all still around to talk about it.  The reliability of our military pensions (and impending Medicare, and later Social Security) makes us comfortable with reducing our assets. 

Mr. Hobo Millionaire and Steveark comment daily, like me.  PhysicianOnFire drops by occasionally, as well as Steve from ThinkSaveRetire, Fritz from Retirement Manifesto, Michael from FinanciallyAlert, and Monica from ThePieceOfThePie.  I’ve bonded with a lot of these people, and we’re having our first meetup in April.  It reminds me of the early days of Camp Mustache and CampFI.

Besides these two MMM forums, I spend a lot of time in military personal finance Facebook groups and subReddits.  I also check in weekly at Early-Retirement and Bogleheads to answer questions from military families.

Otherwise, life. 

My spouse and I were on slow travel for five months of 2022, about half of it visiting our toddler granddaughter.  She just turned three years old, she’s doing fine, and she’s every bit of the daughter that we’ve warned our daughter about for two decades.  Maybe even more.

They’re stationed in San Diego and our son-in-law is deployed for a few more months, which means Marge and I are staying flexible on Oahu to parachute in for grandparenting support as requested.  They’re moving to Oahu in late 2023 (if the Navy supports them with orders) or early 2024 (without the Navy’s support). 

We’ve done a lot of home improvement in the last three months, and that pace has finally slowed down a little.   

I still spend several hours a day answering questions about military personal finance, which usually distracts me from updating my decade-old edition of The Military Guide.  My last blog post was June 2022 (“20 years of FI & military retirement”) and I’m drafting my next post (“Safe Health Withdrawal Rate”) to go live in March.  Everything else goes on my Facebook feed, which is mostly grandsharenting and totally public.

And surfing:  2-3 times per week, usually with recovery days in between!   I’m 62 years old, and my two favorite breaks have plenty of guys in their 70s... with a few in their 80s.  I joke that I’ll paddle out until I can no longer remember how to paddle back in.  We’re currently in that ugly 6-8 weeks of Hawaii winter where there’s winds of 20+ knots and inches of rain.  That leads to poor surf, getting blown around, brown-water advisories, and general sniveling.  I have high hopes for March.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...

...
My current favorite forum (1-2 hours per day since late 2020) is Millionaire Money Mentors hosted by ESIMoney.  (This is not a pitch or an affiliate-- it’s just where my interest lies now.)  It’s the first time that I’ve ever paid to join a forum, and in a related coincidence I was shocked to confirm that there are no trolls, spammers, or haters.  There are no moderators and there’s not even an “ignore poster” feature. 
...

And just like that, the MMM forum lost a few more people LOL...  In fact, there's another thread that just started along similar lines - What are some additional post-FIRE forum groups?

[Nords]

...

...
My current favorite forum (1-2 hours per day since late 2020) is Millionaire Money Mentors hosted by ESIMoney.  (This is not a pitch or an affiliate-- it’s just where my interest lies now.)  It’s the first time that I’ve ever paid to join a forum, and in a related coincidence I was shocked to confirm that there are no trolls, spammers, or haters.  There are no moderators and there’s not even an “ignore poster” feature. 
...

And just like that, the MMM forum lost a few more people LOL...  In fact, there's another thread that just started along similar lines - What are some additional post-FIRE forum groups?

I have a perspective of abundance with forums, not a scarcity mentality or zero-sum mindset.

I'll chime in over there.

[Fru-Gal]

I have a perspective of abundance with forums, not a scarcity mentality or zero-sum mindset.

I'll chime in over there.

Amen!!! Also…. Quality over quantity, anyone?

That was an amazing update @Nords and like @spartana I love hearing about someone 20 years in since I am a new FIRE person only one year in (FIRE 1/2022). Also reading your perspective on the OMY syndrome among decimillionaires and the ability to accumulate wealth exceeding their ability to manage it is really interesting.

Also I don’t begrudge anyone leaving any Internet forum or social media and I totally get the motivation for parting with a rant or manifesto. I think it probably helps cement the break, and since I know struggled with quitting Twitter. Though in that case I didn’t leave a rant but at least said goodbye and some friends on there stayed in touch as a result.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...

...
My current favorite forum (1-2 hours per day since late 2020) is Millionaire Money Mentors hosted by ESIMoney.  (This is not a pitch or an affiliate-- it’s just where my interest lies now.)  It’s the first time that I’ve ever paid to join a forum, and in a related coincidence I was shocked to confirm that there are no trolls, spammers, or haters.  There are no moderators and there’s not even an “ignore poster” feature. 
...

And just like that, the MMM forum lost a few more people LOL...  In fact, there's another thread that just started along similar lines - What are some additional post-FIRE forum groups?

I have a perspective of abundance with forums, not a scarcity mentality or zero-sum mindset.

I'll chime in over there.

That would be great @Nords !  Would love to have a few of them join over here, I'm *never* going to pay $60/mo (or only $600/annually) for access to rich people's opinions LOL  Maybe if they throw in their CPA's and lawyers though...

[Extramedium]

Great to hear from Nords again, and glad to see some other options for these discussions.  I also like Early-Retirement.org, though not as much as I like it here.

[Nords]

Hey @Nords great to hear from you (as always)! It's always nice to see some of the other long term retirees chime in about what they've been doing with their lives. Soon we will have to start a club for people who have been retired more years then they worked and are still years away from traditional retirement age ;-).

Yes, a club!  I joke about collecting more pension deposits than paychecks, but 20 years went by a lot faster than I expected and lots of people are reaching new FI longevity.

That was an amazing update @Nords and like @spartana I love hearing about someone 20 years in since I am a new FIRE person only one year in (FIRE 1/2022). Also reading your perspective on the OMY syndrome among decimillionaires and the ability to accumulate wealth exceeding their ability to manage it is really interesting.

I’m working on a blog post about the emotions behind OMY syndrome.  We’ve beaten the math & logic to death, and the people who aren’t convinced by that are dealing with behavioral financial psychology.  (By definition, most of the members of that millionaires forum should be way past worrying about the money.)  I try to redirect those same emotions to persuade them that it’s better to worry about more important life issues than having (way more than) enough money. 

... I'm *never* going to pay $60/mo (or only $600/annually) for access to rich people's opinions LOL 

I’m not here to change anyone’s minds, but I’ll point out that you’re repeating my mistake of making assumptions about the value of an expense in the total absence of any experience with the activity.

ESIMoney talks about some of his lessons learned from the forum in his blog posts.  I finally decided that I could afford to experiment with the experience, and I’m glad I did.  The estate-planning advice that we’ve applied has already paid back years of forum dues, and I’ve learned even more about real-estate investing. 

Another irony of the experience is that it’s convinced my spouse and me to spend down our investments.  Our biggest assets are our military pensions (particularly the cost-of-living adjustments and the cheap health insurance) which means that we need to ramp up our gifting and our philanthropy.  We’re now confident in our plan to shed at least half of our current net worth during the rest of this decade... and then a combination of Social Security and aging will almost certainly build it back up again. 

I’ve also gained a ton of material for a book on life after FI.

Great to hear from Nords again, and glad to see some other options for these discussions.  I also like Early-Retirement.org, though not as much as I like it here.

Yes.  I’ve frequently felt that the moderation is much more reasonable here.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Great to see you, Nords, & especially looking forward to the OMY post (& eventual post-FI book!) I hope there’s a better balance available of surfing time & writing time for you next month.

To be a bit more on-topic, I’m in agreement there’s only so much you can repeat the math. There’s no reason to expect a rush of buzzy traffic from the discovery of FIRE by mainstream outlets in the teens to result in sustained increased traffic in the twenties, because most the of people who jumped on the bandwagon did so for the buzz itself - those writers have moved on to the hot new thing three times since then, along with their audiences. I’m here to see what happens when people escape material scarcity, how differently they grow, & suspect many others here are feeling out that same question.

[Exflyboy]

Hey.. My half a$$ed self has been away for a while... But I'm still here... Just been having to much fun to post..

Plus I forgot my password..;)

[Exflyboy]

@Nords Hey bud.. I will look forward to your book about spending money.

I definitely feel this is taking FIRE to the next level. As Dave Ramsey (not a huge fan) puts it.. "You have trained your saving muscle really well!".

HRH and I will be getting out of the landlord game within the next 1 to 5 years and then the future pensions will cover roughly 75% of our spending.. with after tax dividends about 100%.. Its a compounding "problem".

All the best!

[ender]

I guess I'm confused - you haven't posted prior to this thread for 3 months.

What makes you post less?

Personally I post a lot less on MMM for a few reasons:

• I have a community of folks I discuss with elsewhere
• The forums have turned into a lamer version of bogleheads (if I want that type of advice, I'll just go there)
• There's only so many new things I can learn before just executing on them

Whats your list though?

What is the group of folks you mention in #1?

I'm part of several tech communities (both Slack/Discord based) where folks discuss FIRE and the various aspects of it in a lot more meaningful capacities than I see discussed on this forum nowadays.

I also feel more comfortable being more transparent too, since what I say in direct messages or private channels is not indexed by search engines and effectively "public" forever.

[Fru-Gal]

A propos: “Please stop closing forums and moving people to Discord (kotaku.com)” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28549739

The thesis is that chat rooms/voice comms (Discord) are fundamentally different from forums, and that the archiving of fora is a feature, not a bug. As many of us have pointed out, the privacy angle is easily enforced via anon handles, sock puppet accounts for extremely sensitive topics, and some basic personal caution in terms of not providing every last detail of our lives.

The short article concludes:

While every company closing forums and moving people to Discord in 2021 might have their reasons, if this trend keeps up we’re going to look around in 2026, not be able to find a whole ton of cool and/or interesting stuff, and discover to our horror that, somehow, the internet had got even worse.

In the Hacker News comments:

Axiom 1: Knowledgeable and mature people are repulsed by windbags and vicious people.
Axiom 2: There are vastly more windbags and vicious people than there are knowledgeable and mature people.
Axiom 3: Online moderation / gatekeeping is imperfect.
Axiom 4: Successful moderation depends on a few keystone people.
Lemma 1: A community of knowledgeable, mature people will be under perpetual assault by entropy. The internet baseline of know-nothing gasbags and vicious, damaged people will be pounding on the gates of any community.
Lemma 2: Some of the horde will bypass any gatekeeping and moderation to land blows on the knowledgeable and mature people. They'll be repulsed, and some will leave the community.
Lemma 3: The keystone moderators are inevitably among the people subjected to these blows. After a serious blow or one blow too many, some will get fed up and leave, and moderation will get worse, increasing the rate of knowledgeable and mature people getting repulsed by their own community and leaving. A hole will form in the fortifications, and the barbarians will flood in, driving out everyone mature and knowledgeable.
Thereom: A knowledgeable, mature online community that is open to new users will eventually collapse into the internet baseline.
Corollary 1: If you're knowledgeable and mature and currently part of an open online community you love, you too will eventually get repulsed by it and leave. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Corollary 2: There are several knowledgeable and mature people here on Hacker News. They're here entirely because of dang. He is our keystone, weathering the assault of the barbarians for all of our sake. When he throws in the towel, we're done.

I am not certain DMs on a forum like this are archived, but haven’t searched much to find out.

[wageslave23]

I guess I'm confused - you haven't posted prior to this thread for 3 months.

What makes you post less?

Personally I post a lot less on MMM for a few reasons:

• I have a community of folks I discuss with elsewhere
• The forums have turned into a lamer version of bogleheads (if I want that type of advice, I'll just go there)
• There's only so many new things I can learn before just executing on them

Whats your list though?

This is my reason for posting less. The forum is more watered down than it used to be. And the philosophy doesn't really promote endless discussion. Don't buy shit you don't need, invest leftover money in VTI. FIRE in 10-20 yrs.  ERE mindset is a little more discussion worth. This forum is mostly sensible people talking about doing sensible things.  I also don't talk much about brushing my teeth twice a day or eating a healthy diet.

[Gone Fishing]

I don’t post much anymore.  Just stop in once in a while.  Mainly, I just don’t want to think about money any more than I have to,  I’ve got more important things to do!

[ender]

A propos: “Please stop closing forums and moving people to Discord (kotaku.com)” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28549739

The thesis is that chat rooms/voice comms (Discord) are fundamentally different from forums, and that the archiving of fora is a feature, not a bug. As many of us have pointed out, the privacy angle is easily enforced via anon handles, sock puppet accounts for extremely sensitive topics, and some basic personal caution in terms of not providing every last detail of our lives.

The short article concludes:

While every company closing forums and moving people to Discord in 2021 might have their reasons, if this trend keeps up we’re going to look around in 2026, not be able to find a whole ton of cool and/or interesting stuff, and discover to our horror that, somehow, the internet had got even worse.

In the Hacker News comments:

Axiom 1: Knowledgeable and mature people are repulsed by windbags and vicious people.
Axiom 2: There are vastly more windbags and vicious people than there are knowledgeable and mature people.
Axiom 3: Online moderation / gatekeeping is imperfect.
Axiom 4: Successful moderation depends on a few keystone people.
Lemma 1: A community of knowledgeable, mature people will be under perpetual assault by entropy. The internet baseline of know-nothing gasbags and vicious, damaged people will be pounding on the gates of any community.
Lemma 2: Some of the horde will bypass any gatekeeping and moderation to land blows on the knowledgeable and mature people. They'll be repulsed, and some will leave the community.
Lemma 3: The keystone moderators are inevitably among the people subjected to these blows. After a serious blow or one blow too many, some will get fed up and leave, and moderation will get worse, increasing the rate of knowledgeable and mature people getting repulsed by their own community and leaving. A hole will form in the fortifications, and the barbarians will flood in, driving out everyone mature and knowledgeable.
Thereom: A knowledgeable, mature online community that is open to new users will eventually collapse into the internet baseline.
Corollary 1: If you're knowledgeable and mature and currently part of an open online community you love, you too will eventually get repulsed by it and leave. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Corollary 2: There are several knowledgeable and mature people here on Hacker News. They're here entirely because of dang. He is our keystone, weathering the assault of the barbarians for all of our sake. When he throws in the towel, we're done.

I am not certain DMs on a forum like this are archived, but haven’t searched much to find out.

I agree Discord/realtime chat are fundamentally different than forums.

However, I find them objectively better for the types of things I get out of forums in almost all cases.

[Exflyboy]

I don’t post much anymore.  Just stop in once in a while.  Mainly, I just don’t want to think about money any more than I have to,  I’ve got more important things to do!

I think this is about the most healthy post FIRE comment I've read! I.e you've won that game, not only do you not have to play anymore, but you don't need to think about it either.. Assuming a reasonable safety margin.

[DadJokes]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

[scantee]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

My take based on observing ~10 years of this forum is that in reality most people drawn to FIRE either end up not wanting to or being too scared to actually do it. So they just keep working and end up in rich bogleheads territory. Maybe they end up with a more typical early retirement around age 55. r/financialindepedence skews younger and has always had less emphasis on the RE part than the FI part. Many of them will also likely end up as bogleheads it will just take them longer. True early retirement is still fringe and is likely to remain so, even if awareness of its possibility is much more well known.

[TreeLeaf]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

My take based on observing ~10 years of this forum is that in reality most people drawn to FIRE either end up not wanting to or being too scared to actually do it. So they just keep working and end up in rich bogleheads territory. Maybe they end up with a more typical early retirement around age 55. r/financialindepedence skews younger and has always had less emphasis on the RE part than the FI part. Many of them will also likely end up as bogleheads it will just take them longer. True early retirement is still fringe and is likely to remain so, even if awareness of its possibility is much more well known.

*slowly nods in agreement*

I mean - there are people here with more money than a high school graduate will even make on average during their entire working career who are still too scared to retire.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

My take based on observing ~10 years of this forum is that in reality most people drawn to FIRE either end up not wanting to or being too scared to actually do it. So they just keep working and end up in rich bogleheads territory. Maybe they end up with a more typical early retirement around age 55. r/financialindepedence skews younger and has always had less emphasis on the RE part than the FI part. Many of them will also likely end up as bogleheads it will just take them longer. True early retirement is still fringe and is likely to remain so, even if awareness of its possibility is much more well known.

*slowly nods in agreement*

I mean - there are people here with more money than a high school graduate will even make on average during their entire working career who are still too scared to retire.

That's why I value this particular subforum so much. I want to believe I front-loaded the misery in my life. Unless I find a job that makes me every bit as happy as the same 40 hours a week of self-determined time, I don't want to end up a Boglehead. I'd rather listen to the people who've trusted their parachute enough to jump out of the plane.

[AlanStache]

I keep meaning to scrape the forum and do some math on long term trends of posting, but I keep wanting to go do other things instead <shrug>.  I find r/fatFire to be entertaining but not really useful.  I have used discord for a few other things but never really got the hang of it for reading or getting information from, never got pulled into a "story" as the journals here have pulled me in.

Exflyboy - forgetting my password to here is sort of now something I aspire to :-)

[Dicey]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

I'm confused. You can't just avoid the political threads? Do the other sites have no political content at all?

[Exflyboy]

I thinks human nature means that we see the vibes that happens to agree with our point of view as non-political.

I have friends who actually watch FOX "News" because they are non-political...:)

[JupiterGreen]

Too much talk that isn't related to FIRE, too political, poor web site performance, lax moderation - These are my gripes with MMM.

If we didn't talk about shit not related to FIRE the forum would be dead

I only skimmed comments in here, but I believe it was established that the subreddit & Bogleheads are doing great. Both of those have pretty strict moderation.

The overly political nature of MMM forums are why I seldom visit anymore.

I'm confused. You can't just avoid the political threads? Do the other sites have no political content at all?

Yeah this comment doesn't make any logical sense. How do we talk about money even in a basic way without getting into taxes, income/savings/retirement laws (current and proposed legislation) etc. Then there is healthcare and in particular in the US the ACA. Healthcare is political (while I wish it were not, the facts are it is) especially here in the US and how do you avoid talking about healthcare since it's such a huge part of FIRE planning? There are also environmental factors to FIRE, where to buy property/live, climate change, land conservation/bike trails etc. again it's political whether we like it or not.

[srrb]

...

That's why I value this particular subforum so much. I want to believe I front-loaded the misery in my life. Unless I find a job that makes me every bit as happy as the same 40 hours a week of self-determined time, I don't want to end up a Boglehead. I'd rather listen to the people who've trusted their parachute enough to jump out of the plane.

Yeah, this!! Although I wouldn't describe it so much as misery, as "been there, done that" and now I want to do other things. It served a purpose that is no longer necessary.

[BuffaloStache]

I usually don't poke around this part of the forums since I'm still a ways off from being "Post-FIRE", but I just wanted to chime in and agree with you all. I'm not that much of an old timer, but not a newbie either (wow, it's been 6+ years already!). I go through periods of being active on the forums spread with large chunks of lurking or not even checking the forums, but I've always found it to be an awesome place to gather perspectives and learn more about frugality, life freedom, and other topics.

As others have mentioned, it's the people (most of you that have posted here already), stories, and journals that really make this place what it is. As for me, I agree with this:

...
I'd rather listen to the people who've trusted their parachute enough to jump out of the plane.