Author Topic: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?  (Read 25615 times)

2Birds1Stone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4250
  • Age: 31
  • Location: New York
  • Peter Gibbons
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2018, 08:29:41 AM »
I'm going to choose hookers and blow over an elder care facility.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2018, 09:46:44 AM »
Without employer subsidized health care it is a difficult thing.  Even with that, for example, while my current employer does not require me to contribute out of my paycheck for healthcare premiums (a rarity nowadays, was much more common back in the 70s), my previous employer did and for a plan a non-Mustachian who does not understand how math works, they would pay about $3,000-$4,000 in their contribution for premiums (usually about $140/week for family coverage).  Or you can move to a high deductible plan, which takes the  employee portion down to about $40/week.  Yes you have a higher deductible but if you add in the premium difference in a well structured program the high deductible plan could save the typical family about $1,000/year at any claims level, so I could be totally healthy or have a heart transplant and I'd still have money with a high deductible plan.

Long term care is one thing I struggle over, so I pray for something that just takes me when I get sick, like my grandfather who was fine and then just died in his sleep of a heart attack one night.  I hate to think of the burden on my family otherwise, but I must admit I have not looked at the long term care policies to see if they make sense.  My grandmother is currently in assisted living so I understand the cost through speaking with my parents.  They are currently funding that for her through savings she had and she was the head of a corporate cafeteria as her job so no college education.  They were also immigrants from Communist bloc so they knew how to save, probably better than a lot of Mustachians, so not sure how typical this would be, but it does show that they found a way even on a meager income to save enough.   She is turning 95 this year and the facility she is at is about $8,000/month and quite run down but likely typical of most.  For many others (my wife's father is the example I'll use), they do not have enough, they work through savings and then Medicare pays for the facility but you need to deplete everything you own to get there.  And then it is a Medicare facility which is not always great and typically has a long waiting list.  They were lucky in that a bed opened up in one very near his home, so his wife could easily visit (17 year age difference so she is still able to be on her own).  He has since passed, but I think that situation is more typical, in that people do not have savings and it defaults to the social safety net.

Public school eliminates the under college costs for everyone who is not full of the belief that somehow a private education is always better.  It is better at creating pretentious snobs, but I've seen a lot of private school kids that are dumb as rocks.  The student is important.  Inner city and rural school districts certainly present a problem, but many solid suburban school districts exist around every major city.  It does usually place you in a housing situation as you describe, but this goes back to the LCOL space talked about a lot on these boards.  I was born and raised in Chicago.  Everywhere there is as you describe.  Insane property taxes ($15,000 for a typical 2,500 sq foot 4 bedroom) and high costs (I sold a house like that for about $300K back in 2005, they are higher now).  I know live in a city in Ohio and have a very similar home on a bigger piece of land that I bought for just over $200K and may less than $5,000 in property taxes, for what I would say is a better quality of life.  Much better park districts, flourishing arts and culture and everything is less expensive from groceries to homes to sales tax.  This is in one of those "good" school districts you talk about, one of the best in the state and also well rated nationwide. 

For college you can impact that as well.  Again, Ohio has the largest number of colleges of any state.  In state tuition rates cut over $20K per year off of almost any tuition bill.  Sure you might need to explain to your child the reality that virtually no employer not on Wall Street or Silicon Valley cares which school your degree is from and fight against the culture to attend some overpriced school with a lackluster placement rate and academic program and that just breed more of those pretentious snobs talked about earlier is not what they need.   Northwestern is a good example of that.

Hope that helps understand how we survive here in the land of abundance.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2018, 12:53:21 PM »
How do I handle:

health care/health insurance - ACA.
housing - Own place outright.  200K for a house, not in my area, try 460k.
education - No children, so not an issue.
elder care - Both parents are dead, not an issue.

RedmondStash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2018, 12:19:41 PM »
I am only going to touch on a couple of points here, but I would be interested in how people manage the seemingly prohibitively expensive items like health care/health insurance, housing, and parochial or private education.

...

How do people handle these types of big basic things?

A lot of it is wishful thinking and hoping that the worst doesn't come to pass.

You have to remember that a lot of us don't deal with healthcare or elder care emergency costs on a daily basis, and if we do, we're accustomed to them and have built the costs into our budgets already. This is just How It Is. You just keep working until you've got 25x annual expenses, whatever those annual expenses are.

For health care, spouse & I try hard to stay healthy and we pay the exorbitant premiums. I'm on COBRA right now from a previous job (that gives you access to 18 months of employer-sponsored healthcare after you leave a job, but you pay the entire cost), but after that runs out, I'm not sure what I'll do. Probably the ACA, with fingers crossed that subsidies still exist.

I have (non-Mustachian) friends who avoid seeing doctors and dentists because they can't afford to, which leads to health problems getting worse and more expensive, until there's a crisis they can't avoid. Sometimes this leads to some pretty awful outcomes.

No kids, so no kid expenses.

For housing, we were lucky to buy at a good time, and we've stayed in our "starter" home for many, many years. We'll probably own it outright by the end of next year. As rents and real estate prices increase so dramatically, I am more and more grateful that at least housing is one cost we've got well in hand. But we could easily have bought in 2008 and ended up in real trouble.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2018, 05:56:14 PM »
I have (non-Mustachian) friends who avoid seeing doctors and dentists because they can't afford to, which leads to health problems getting worse and more expensive, until there's a crisis they can't avoid. Sometimes this leads to some pretty awful outcomes.

I'm not sure about this. I live in Australia and we have a good health care system but I still avoid doctors and dentists as much as possible. My dad is a retired doctor and mum is still working as a nurse. I think that taking care of yourself is the best way to avoid a crisis. I don't think medical care is great at avoiding crises.

jeroly

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2018, 06:10:27 PM »
I have (non-Mustachian) friends who avoid seeing doctors and dentists because they can't afford to, which leads to health problems getting worse and more expensive, until there's a crisis they can't avoid. Sometimes this leads to some pretty awful outcomes.

I'm not sure about this. I live in Australia and we have a good health care system but I still avoid doctors and dentists as much as possible. My dad is a retired doctor and mum is still working as a nurse. I think that taking care of yourself is the best way to avoid a crisis. I don't think medical care is great at avoiding crises.

The preponderance of evidence supports the theory that preventative care is effective at improving people's self-perceived health level as well as improving outcomes.  That involves regular blood work, urinalysis, and physical examination (say annually or biannually depending on age).

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2018, 06:49:19 PM »
I have (non-Mustachian) friends who avoid seeing doctors and dentists because they can't afford to, which leads to health problems getting worse and more expensive, until there's a crisis they can't avoid. Sometimes this leads to some pretty awful outcomes.

I'm not sure about this. I live in Australia and we have a good health care system but I still avoid doctors and dentists as much as possible. My dad is a retired doctor and mum is still working as a nurse. I think that taking care of yourself is the best way to avoid a crisis. I don't think medical care is great at avoiding crises.

The preponderance of evidence supports the theory that preventative care is effective at improving people's self-perceived health level as well as improving outcomes.  That involves regular blood work, urinalysis, and physical examination (say annually or biannually depending on age).

I don't know if your statement is factual. I'm not having a go here but I'm honestly not sure. I've never seen that evidence. I think eating well and exercising (a healthy lifestyle) are probably the best protection against health crises. I know that one of the leading causes of death is actually health care.

http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK225187/
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 06:52:37 PM by steveo »

sherr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 33
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2018, 08:37:46 AM »
I have (non-Mustachian) friends who avoid seeing doctors and dentists because they can't afford to, which leads to health problems getting worse and more expensive, until there's a crisis they can't avoid. Sometimes this leads to some pretty awful outcomes.

I'm not sure about this. I live in Australia and we have a good health care system but I still avoid doctors and dentists as much as possible. My dad is a retired doctor and mum is still working as a nurse. I think that taking care of yourself is the best way to avoid a crisis. I don't think medical care is great at avoiding crises.

The preponderance of evidence supports the theory that preventative care is effective at improving people's self-perceived health level as well as improving outcomes.  That involves regular blood work, urinalysis, and physical examination (say annually or biannually depending on age).

I don't know if your statement is factual. I'm not having a go here but I'm honestly not sure. I've never seen that evidence. I think eating well and exercising (a healthy lifestyle) are probably the best protection against health crises. I know that one of the leading causes of death is actually health care.

http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK225187/

I'm sure there's tons of room for improvement, but you can't really take those numbers and then jump to "healthcare kills people." Of the 225k deaths / year cited in the first link:

  • 12,000 deaths per year due to unnecessary surgery
  • 7000 deaths per year due to medication errors in hospitals
  • 20,000 deaths per year due to other errors in hospitals
  • 80,000 deaths per year due to infections in hospitals
  • 106,000 deaths per year due to negative effects of drugs

Only the first one "unnecessary surgery" (Unnecessary by whose standards? Are we talking purely face-lifts or something?) can really be attributed to "death by healthcare". The others are all some variation of "there was a super sick person here already, and in the process of trying to make them better something happened and they died." By blaming all these deaths on the healthcare industry and concluding that it's better to stay away you're assuming that they wouldn't have died of whatever brought them into the hospital in the first place. Which is kind of ridiculous, people don't just go to the hospital recreationally.

Odds are that if you a) get an infection at a hospital and b) die from it, you already had some pretty incredibly serious health problems. Who knows what, maybe a compromised immune system from cancer / cancer treatment, HIV, 3rd degree burns over half your body, whatever. But if the infection is what actually kills you then that's what they'll write down, and then people write alarmist articles about how dangerous hospitals are. Which, fine, let's make them better, but "avoid hospitals at all costs" is not really the logical conclusion.

Even as a complete mistrustful cynic who doesn't want to do any research you can still be pretty confident that preventative care is a net positive from one simple fact: insurance companies pay for it completely. That means they have run the numbers internally and found that paying a little bit for preventative care will save them money in the long run by avoiding more serious problems; they wouldn't do it if there wasn't profit involved. Or you could, you know, trust the entire medical community to know what they're talking about in the field of their expertise.

sherr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 33
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2018, 09:09:33 AM »
I think eating well and exercising (a healthy lifestyle) are probably the best protection against health crises.

Just a follow-on note: I think the vast majority of doctors would agree with you. But then they'd also say that preventative care is the second best protection. It's not a one-or-the-other situation.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2018, 12:35:16 PM »
Some preventative tests make no sense once you are older. For instance your colon lining thins out as you age so it is better to quit doing colonoscopies  by 70.  If they puncture your colon you usually die from sepsis.   I was reading that pap smears are no longer recommended after 65 and mammograms are better not to have done every year because the radiation can cause the cancer.  I think you have to weigh the risks versus benefits.

jeroly

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2018, 12:44:23 PM »
Some preventative tests make no sense once you are older. For instance your colon lining thins out as you age so it is better to quit doing colonoscopies  by 70.  If they puncture your colon you usually die from sepsis.   I was reading that pap smears are no longer recommended after 65 and mammograms are better not to have done every year because the radiation can cause the cancer.  I think you have to weigh the risks versus benefits.
Making those calls is a big part of an MD or NP's job, and yes, they have to weigh the risks versus the benefits.

You the patient, on the other hand, should probably not be making those calls unless you're coming from a medical background. Googling a condition or procedure for an hour or two is not a substitute for years of education and training.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2018, 12:47:44 PM »
I am definitely making the call for myself since the doctor wants all tests done on a schedule except for paps.  She agrees with that.  At 64 I am no longer a sheep and read books written by doctors and discuss it with my friends.  We are all highly educated so not stupid people.

Mr. Green

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Age: 34
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #112 on: May 01, 2018, 12:59:31 PM »
The great thing about the internet is it allows us all to be a little bit more educated about what kinda of preventative care we think we might want to have done routinely. I'm 34 and just saw a dermatologist for the first time. I didn't have a particular reason to go but I'm not really knowledgeable on skin cancer so I wanted a general check just because I've had some serious sun burns in the past and I'd prefer not to find out down the road that I've had something for a while and it's spread or something like that. Annual blood work might catch something that would otherwise not be found until you finally got sick from whatever was causing the abnormality.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #113 on: May 01, 2018, 01:08:26 PM »
I do annual blood work and a checkup. Since skin cancer runs in my family I also see the skin doctor once a year for an entire body check.   Mr Green make sure your wife checks your back monthly because melanoma can develop where you don't see it and is deadly.  A friend of mine died at your age from it.

Car Jack

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2018, 08:39:05 AM »
This isn't completely impossible to figure out for yourself.  The biggies:

Health insurance cost:  ???

Cost to put your kids through college:  ???  I'll add that sure, you could be all soap box pantsy and in an old guy voice say "when I was in college, I worked 80 hours a day, took a double class schedule and got my PhD in 2 years".  For me, education is wicked important and I'm willing to pay for a fancy private school, so long as the kid is really putting the effort in.  I'm actually doing that now to the tune of $65k a year.  If you'd rather soap box it and have your kid work at Wal*Mart forever, go for it.

Taxes:  This can be managed by only pulling out what's absolutely needed from investments to keep your income low.  Hard to do if you have 2 kids in college at say $50k each and health insurance is $30k a year.

The rest is mouse nuts (and what most people focus on).  Eating, housing, cars......mouse nuts.  Without college costs or health insurance costs, I could easily retire right now, buy myself a Nissan GT-R and live till I'm 85, leaving millions to my wife at that point.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2018, 11:32:08 AM »
Car Jack, do you even realize that most people can't afford 65k/year for private tuition and do not live in your world?  The median salary for a family of 4 in the US is around 50k last time I checked.

GOFU

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 170
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2018, 03:59:13 PM »
Mouse nuts is pretty funny though.

gerardc

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF bay area
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #117 on: May 03, 2018, 08:06:57 PM »
Let's assume you live in a socialist country with cheap healthcare and education. How much do you need to pay for the mouse nuts then?

GOFU

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 170
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #118 on: May 03, 2018, 10:01:46 PM »
Let's assume you live in a socialist country with cheap healthcare and education. How much do you need to pay for the mouse nuts then?

It just so happens I do. The mouse nuts cost me about $800 a month, but most people do it for less.

Not sure if by "cheap" you mean low cost or low quality. Both apply here.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 06:36:11 AM by GOFU »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #119 on: May 03, 2018, 11:38:06 PM »
I think eating well and exercising (a healthy lifestyle) are probably the best protection against health crises.

Just a follow-on note: I think the vast majority of doctors would agree with you. But then they'd also say that preventative care is the second best protection. It's not a one-or-the-other situation.

I'm not sold on this premise and so I thought I would look it up.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-it-worth-getting-an-annual-physical-exam/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/a-checkup-for-the-checkup-do-you-really-need-a-yearly-physical-201510238473

Quote
. In other words, being seen by your doctor once a year won’t necessarily keep you from getting sick, or even help you live longer. And some of the components of an annual visit may actually cause harm. For example, lab tests and exams that are ordered for healthy patients (as opposed to people with symptoms or known illnesses) are statistically more likely to be “false positives” — that is, when test results suggest a problem that doesn’t exist. Even if these inaccurate findings affect only a tiny percentage of the more than 200 million adults who would undergo such exams, the monetary, practical, and emotional costs are huge.

I'm not stating that the practice of regular check-ups is definitely bad but maybe it's not that beneficial.

The only test I've taken in my entire life (44 yo) is a skin cancer test as per the one mentioned above.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2018, 11:43:06 PM »
The rest is mouse nuts (and what most people focus on).  Eating, housing, cars......mouse nuts.  Without college costs or health insurance costs, I could easily retire right now, buy myself a Nissan GT-R and live till I'm 85, leaving millions to my wife at that point.

Interesting point. I live in Australia and I'm not paying my kids college costs (it's basically a debt based system but not as bad as the US system) or worrying about health care. End of life costs though can add up significantly. My Uncle recently passed away and he had dementia. He had a lot of money but it cost a lot putting him into an old age home. I'm hopeful this doesn't happen to me but if it does I again hope that I don't have enough money and the government subsidises the cost or I have enough and the kids get screwed over.

Yabous

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2018, 04:56:19 PM »
The great thing about the internet is it allows us all to be a little bit more educated about what kinda of preventative care we think we might want to have done routinely. I'm 34 and just saw a dermatologist for the first time. I didn't have a particular reason to go but I'm not really knowledgeable on skin cancer so I wanted a general check just because I've had some serious sun burns in the past and I'd prefer not to find out down the road that I've had something for a while and it's spread or something like that. Annual blood work might catch something that would otherwise not be found until you finally got sick from whatever was causing the abnormality.

One of the issues in trying to make decisions about our individual preventive care is that the medical establishment is making decisions based on population data and we are, well, just ourselves. So I made decide that after one clean colonoscopy I will never, ever do that again based on the percentage chance, as an individual, that I will develop cancer vs all the possible errors, pain and inconvenience of testing, etc... of doing it again. That may be rational based on the individual risk vs costs (financial and otherwise) whereas the medical profession, from a population analysis, may conclude that finding the needle in the haystack that is going to cost them millions is slightly, ever so slightly cost effective to test everyone. But those costs never account for our personal costs in the process.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2018, 06:28:54 AM »
 I was thinking that this question has way to many posts.
Then I reasoned, it has so many posts, because it is unanswerable.
 Some couples are willing to live an $20k while others need $100k.
 It depends on your location, property taxes, health condition and healthcare
expenses, travel or not, eating and drinking habits, what do you want to drive,
or ride, new clothes or second hand, morning coffee at home or Starbucks,
cook at home or eat out, expensive hobbies, low cost or none, house plenty
warm and cool, live in outdated home or need modern upgrades, garden or
supermarket, high cable and cellphone bills or not, insurance costs and a
hundred other thinks to spend money on, OR not.
 So the variable has a 5 to 1 or more range, it is an unanswerable question.
 You could also ask, "how much does to cost to live while working?"
People live on $12k to $1M a year.
 I would ask the OP, what are you spending now? That's how much it costs you.
Unless, you want to change your habits, most people don't.
Rant over/
 Have a thrifty day! :-)



GOFU

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 170
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2018, 07:54:41 AM »
I was thinking that this question has way to many posts.
Then I reasoned, it has so many posts, because it is unanswerable.
 Some couples are willing to live an $20k while others need $100k.
 It depends on your location, property taxes, health condition and healthcare
expenses, travel or not, eating and drinking habits, what do you want to drive,
or ride, new clothes or second hand, morning coffee at home or Starbucks,
cook at home or eat out, expensive hobbies, low cost or none, house plenty
warm and cool, live in outdated home or need modern upgrades, garden or
supermarket, high cable and cellphone bills or not, insurance costs and a
hundred other thinks to spend money on, OR not.
 So the variable has a 5 to 1 or more range, it is an unanswerable question.
 You could also ask, "how much does to cost to live while working?"
People live on $12k to $1M a year.
 I would ask the OP, what are you spending now? That's how much it costs you.
Unless, you want to change your habits, most people don't.
Rant over/
 Have a thrifty day! :-)

The original post expressly acknowledged that individual responses and their applicability to the situations of others would vary. For the second time you chime in to say the question can't be answered, despite the fact that nearly a hundred other people have answered the question (and numerous other related questions besides). The answers have been very helpful to me and perhaps others ("PTF"!!!) in identifying significant drivers of spending and needs/opportunities for efficiency.

To those who have contributed to the substantive discussion, thank you again.

"I would ask the OP, what are you spending now? That's how much it costs you."

Wrong. I detailed my own spending numbers and categories three months ago, specifically stating these are not useful in determining future needs as I contemplate whether I should return to live in the USA after living and working elsewhere for over 10 years.   

"I was thinking that this question has way to many posts."

Way too many posts? Such non-mustachian spending of scarce pixels and precious keystrokes. Someone should tell them over at the "Top is In" thread.

marion10

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 237
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #124 on: May 08, 2018, 09:15:25 AM »
I want to clarify that Medicaid (not Medicare) pays for nursing home care in the US. Medicare pays for short terms stays for rehabilitation after a hospital stay. People think that Medicaid is just for those "welfare people ". Not realizing that many middle class families need it at the end of life.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #125 on: May 08, 2018, 10:12:51 AM »
I was thinking that this question has way to many posts.
Then I reasoned, it has so many posts, because it is unanswerable.
 Some couples are willing to live an $20k while others need $100k.
 It depends on your location, property taxes, health condition and healthcare
expenses, travel or not, eating and drinking habits, what do you want to drive,
or ride, new clothes or second hand, morning coffee at home or Starbucks,
cook at home or eat out, expensive hobbies, low cost or none, house plenty
warm and cool, live in outdated home or need modern upgrades, garden or
supermarket, high cable and cellphone bills or not, insurance costs and a
hundred other thinks to spend money on, OR not.
 So the variable has a 5 to 1 or more range, it is an unanswerable question.
 You could also ask, "how much does to cost to live while working?"
People live on $12k to $1M a year.
 I would ask the OP, what are you spending now? That's how much it costs you.
Unless, you want to change your habits, most people don't.
Rant over/
 Have a thrifty day! :-)

The original post expressly acknowledged that individual responses and their applicability to the situations of others would vary. For the second time you chime in to say the question can't be answered, despite the fact that nearly a hundred other people have answered the question (and numerous other related questions besides). The answers have been very helpful to me and perhaps others ("PTF"!!!) in identifying significant drivers of spending and needs/opportunities for efficiency.

To those who have contributed to the substantive discussion, thank you again.

"I would ask the OP, what are you spending now? That's how much it costs you."

Wrong. I detailed my own spending numbers and categories three months ago, specifically stating these are not useful in determining future needs as I contemplate whether I should return to live in the USA after living and working elsewhere for over 10 years.   

"I was thinking that this question has way to many posts."

Way too many posts? Such non-mustachian spending of scarce pixels and precious keystrokes. Someone should tell them over at the "Top is In" thread.
Well there, I've been thoroughly facepunched. :-)

Shane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: Independent
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #126 on: May 08, 2018, 01:46:19 PM »
I want to clarify that Medicaid (not Medicare) pays for nursing home care in the US. Medicare pays for short terms stays for rehabilitation after a hospital stay. People think that Medicaid is just for those "welfare people ". Not realizing that many middle class families need it at the end of life.

Medicaid only pays for nursing home care if you, first, spend down your assets to the point where you are, basically, broke. If a doctor certifies that you (may) only have ~6 months to live, Medicare will pay for outpatient hospice care, which is better than a nursing home, IMHO. Nobody *has* to hand over all of his assets to the medical industry at the end of his life. Nursing home care is a choice. Just say no.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 11:31:59 AM by Shane »

FLBiker

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 864
  • Age: 42
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2018, 08:14:16 AM »
Thanks for all the info here!  We're currently in the US (couple w/ a 3 yo) spending ~50K per year.  We both work, though, so that includes preschool.  I've lived in Taiwan and China as well, which are a lot cheaper.  And we're currently thinking about relocating to Canada in ~2 years.  Reading this thread (and the impact of healthcare on early retirement) makes me even more interested in that possibility.  I'm 41, DW is 37, and we're probably 6-8 years away from FIRE, so we'll have lots of pre-medicare healthcare costs in our future if we stay in the US.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2018, 11:53:05 AM »
To qualify for hospice in home care someone must live with you full-time or they turn you down.  I just went through this with a friend.

marion10

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 237
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2018, 12:36:49 PM »
You don't always get a choice on nursing home care- you are assuming competence. My BIL moved in with my mother in law who had dementia- when it got so that she broke her hip and could no longer be cared for at home, then she went into a nursing home. I suppose there was a choice, he could have just walked out and left her to starve. But she didn't get to make the decision.

Adam Zapple

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2018, 03:09:35 PM »
You don't always get a choice on nursing home care- you are assuming competence. My BIL moved in with my mother in law who had dementia- when it got so that she broke her hip and could no longer be cared for at home, then she went into a nursing home. I suppose there was a choice, he could have just walked out and left her to starve. But she didn't get to make the decision.

I propose a law that says my family can smash me in the head with a rock or put a pillow over my face in my sleep once I get so confused I can no longer care for myself or recognize anyone I know.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2018, 06:50:26 AM »
Even the laws that allow assisted suicide still have the person be of sound mind and give consent to getting the Rx to kill them.  Then the person has to actually take the Rx themselves.

There are many situations where a medical event happens and renders the person in a nursing home.

SnackDog

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
  • Location: Latin America
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2018, 07:11:21 AM »
If you don't mind the occasional volcanic eruption you can apparently live in paradise for around $700/month.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/10/hawaiis-evacuees-on-life-by-the-volcano-people-think-were-crazy-to-live-here

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1203
  • Location: AL
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #133 on: May 10, 2018, 10:30:42 AM »
If you don't mind the occasional volcanic eruption you can apparently live in paradise for around $700/month.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/10/hawaiis-evacuees-on-life-by-the-volcano-people-think-were-crazy-to-live-here

Wow.  That is very telling.  They knew a backyard volcanic eruption was likely and still moved in anyway.  If people are going to have to bail them out then they either shouldn't be allowed to live there or should be required to have insurance or other means to take care of themselves. 

Acastus

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
  • Age: 56
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #134 on: May 15, 2018, 10:04:04 AM »
We spent just under $60k last year for family of 3. That includes a mortgage and, yes, a car payment. That feels like a normal year for us.

FIRE budget - we will keep the mortgage for now, pay off the car, add ACA health insurance. On paper we are still $60k, but I want to add a buffer and shoot for $70k safe withdrawal. Stretch goal is $80k safe withdrawal available if needed for unforeseen expense, or if we want a Europe / Denali level vacation every year. Downsize the house in a few years allows for more travel or lower budget. Full SS kicks in in 11 years, so I think a 4.5% rate is safe initially, then drop to 2.5-3% after SS.

GTH2017

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #135 on: May 15, 2018, 08:41:54 PM »
We have been FIREd for 18 months and spent $60,000 last year for two people. This also included a mortgage and although our vehicle is paid for we currently budget about $2500 a year for our next one in about 10 years. We also spent $10,000 on two months in Thailand and Bali but $2000 of that is from next years travel budget floated from savings.

Our transition to FIRE consisted of us switching from making $100,000 netting $90,000 banking $40,000 and living on $50,000 approximately. When our pensions reached a point where they more than covered our expenses I knew we were good. We do live what I consider a low consumption lifestyle. That said we have payed cash for our toys the last few years we worked and have a camper, small sailboat, two kayaks and two bicycles and motorcycle that all get used on a regular basis.

Early Social Security should kick in about 9.5 years from now and although it will be reduced due to retiring at age 50 and 51 it will still be around $20,000 more a year. Life's good. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:58:06 PM by GTH2017 »

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2018, 12:23:44 PM »
If you don't mind the occasional volcanic eruption you can apparently live in paradise for around $700/month.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/10/hawaiis-evacuees-on-life-by-the-volcano-people-think-were-crazy-to-live-here

Wow.  That is very telling.  They knew a backyard volcanic eruption was likely and still moved in anyway.  If people are going to have to bail them out then they either shouldn't be allowed to live there or should be required to have insurance or other means to take care of themselves.
This is similar to my feeling about New Orleans.  On one hand I'm sorry people got flooded out of their homes when a hurricane ran through.  On the other, really, did you think your luck could last forever?  And then you want to go back?  I believe unsustainable cities like this just need to be abandoned.   Are we going to do the same thing with Miami when global warming raises sea levels?

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8047
  • Age: 60
  • Location: NorCal
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2018, 06:59:59 AM »
To qualify for hospice in home care someone must live with you full-time or they turn you down.  I just went through this with a friend.
I'm sorry for your loss, Cassie. Different agencies have different rules, because this is absolutely not true in my area. I went through this with a friend, too.

2Birds1Stone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4250
  • Age: 31
  • Location: New York
  • Peter Gibbons
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2018, 08:23:42 AM »
We have been FIREd for 18 months and spent $60,000 last year for two people. This also included a mortgage and although our vehicle is paid for we currently budget about $2500 a year for our next one in about 10 years. We also spent $10,000 on two months in Thailand and Bali but $2000 of that is from next years travel budget floated from savings.

Our transition to FIRE consisted of us switching from making $100,000 netting $90,000 banking $40,000 and living on $50,000 approximately. When our pensions reached a point where they more than covered our expenses I knew we were good. We do live what I consider a low consumption lifestyle. That said we have payed cash for our toys the last few years we worked and have a camper, small sailboat, two kayaks and two bicycles and motorcycle that all get used on a regular basis.

Early Social Security should kick in about 9.5 years from now and although it will be reduced due to retiring at age 50 and 51 it will still be around $20,000 more a year. Life's good.

How did you spend so much in Thailand/Bali? All the ladyboys?

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2018, 01:37:10 PM »
Dicey, that is interesting. I just assumed it was a general rule as it is too dangerous to be alone.  Losing friends is hard as you know. We have lost 3 friends between 59 & 67.

GTH2017

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #140 on: May 17, 2018, 05:01:02 PM »


How did you spend so much in Thailand/Bali? All the ladyboys?
[/quote]

We actually had close to $900 left out of out $10,000 but mentally I think of the trip having cost $10,000 because that's what we budgeted. We flew Air Asia from Thailand to Bali and then back to Thailand before returning to the U.S.  We also flew within Thailand to Krabi, Chiang Mai and back to Bangok so this added some extra expense.

In regards to the lady boys we were on Khaosan Rd. and I commented to my wife "Hey that last beer girl was a dude!" to which my wife replied, "All six of them are". Good my wife was there as I was oblivious to the first five "girls" not being authentic.

2Birds1Stone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4250
  • Age: 31
  • Location: New York
  • Peter Gibbons
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #141 on: May 17, 2018, 07:31:13 PM »
Haha, that's awesome.

I have read a lot of blogs and watched a lot of vlogs on SE asia recently. Seems like most are able to live amazingly well on ~$1k/month. I guess if you are do short term stays all over the place it adds up. Most of those are 1+ month rentals.

Shane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: Independent
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2018, 12:26:50 AM »
Dicey, that is interesting. I just assumed it was a general rule as it is too dangerous to be alone.  Losing friends is hard as you know. We have lost 3 friends between 59 & 67.

In order to qualify for hospice care a doctor has to certify a patient is sick enough that she might die in the next six months. It's funny the state would be worried it's too "dangerous" for a hospice patient to be alone... Wonder what they're worried about? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? :)

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2018, 12:22:47 PM »
I know it's weird. One reason my mom didn't have hospice until a week before she died. She didn't want to leave her home.

Shane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: Independent
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2018, 03:53:07 PM »
Just before my grandfather died at 92, he spent about 6 months in an assisted living facility and HATED it. He, literally, tried to escape on foot, with his walker, two or three times that we know of. Once they caught him a few blocks away at a McDonalds eating a Big Mac. The other time, staff from the assisted living place caught him at a convenience store as he was about to buy some illicit snacks. Apparently, my grandfather's doctor had him on a strict low-fat diet, which he hated, and he wasn't allowed to eat nuts, because the staff were afraid he might choke. It's seems bizarre to me to worry about a 92 year old man choking on some peanuts or dying from a heart attack because he ate too much fatty food. WTF is the point of living if you can't do the things you enjoy? It just makes no sense...

secondcor521

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Boise, Idaho
  • Big cattle, no hat.
    • Age of Eon - Overwatch player videos
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2018, 04:13:58 PM »
Dicey, that is interesting. I just assumed it was a general rule as it is too dangerous to be alone.  Losing friends is hard as you know. We have lost 3 friends between 59 & 67.

In order to qualify for hospice care a doctor has to certify a patient is sick enough that she might die in the next six months. It's funny the state would be worried it's too "dangerous" for a hospice patient to be alone... Wonder what they're worried about? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? :)

I know you're not being serious, but falling, breaking a hip or arm, then dying of starvation over the course of a week because nobody visits and you can't reach the phone doesn't sound like a good way to go.

Shane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: Independent
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2018, 05:16:12 PM »
Dicey, that is interesting. I just assumed it was a general rule as it is too dangerous to be alone.  Losing friends is hard as you know. We have lost 3 friends between 59 & 67.

In order to qualify for hospice care a doctor has to certify a patient is sick enough that she might die in the next six months. It's funny the state would be worried it's too "dangerous" for a hospice patient to be alone... Wonder what they're worried about? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? :)

I know you're not being serious, but falling, breaking a hip or arm, then dying of starvation over the course of a week because nobody visits and you can't reach the phone doesn't sound like a good way to go.

Yeah, sure, but that doesn't seem like a very good reason to not allow somebody to stay in her home alone. It wouldn't be hard to attach a small cell phone or emergency alert button to a lanyard around a patient's neck, so that in an emergency she could call for help. It just seems like if a patient is expected to die within six months or less, anyway, worries about "safety" shouldn't need to be taken quite as seriously...

liberty53

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #147 on: May 26, 2018, 02:29:39 PM »
The Bureau of Labor Statistics provides very detailed consumer expenditure data for the U.S. cross-tabulated in many different ways. I used this data when I was trying to determine how reasonable my estimates of retirement expenses were.

The data may be found here:

https://www.bls.gov/cex/tables.htm#crosstab


Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4254
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2018, 02:52:14 PM »
My sister told our mom to keep her cell phone in her pocket at all times so she could call for help. She forgot to and had laid 24 hours in her waste until her sister checked on her.  Then they took her to a hospice facility where she got awful care even though it looked nice.

cap396

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Age: 46
Re: So how much does it really cost to live early retired?
« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2018, 07:02:40 PM »
The Bureau of Labor Statistics provides very detailed consumer expenditure data for the U.S. cross-tabulated in many different ways. I used this data when I was trying to determine how reasonable my estimates of retirement expenses were.

The data may be found here:

https://www.bls.gov/cex/tables.htm#crosstab

I have also found this data to be very helpful in making predictions about future expenses.  But I think it's best to look at these numbers by comparing what you are spending now compared to the numbers in the data compiled by the BLS.  For example, if you are currently spending more than the average amount stated by the BLS, then you will probably also spend more than the average in the future as well.