Author Topic: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?  (Read 22263 times)

dixonge

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #200 on: February 20, 2017, 04:24:10 AM »
One thing that tends to drive slow travel is visa limits. The vast majority of countries have a maximum stay if 90 days. Leaving the country just to reset (if allowed) is a lot more of a PITA than you might think. Gets old quick, even in Mexico with it's very lenient 180 day visa.

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arebelspy

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2017, 05:09:45 AM »
One thing that tends to drive slow travel is visa limits. The vast majority of countries have a maximum stay if 90 days. Leaving the country just to reset (if allowed) is a lot more of a PITA than you might think. Gets old quick, even in Mexico with it's very lenient 180 day visa.

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Three months sounds about 12x slower than most people go.  :)
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EndlessJourney

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2017, 05:14:14 AM »
One thing that tends to drive slow travel is visa limits. The vast majority of countries have a maximum stay if 90 days. Leaving the country just to reset (if allowed) is a lot more of a PITA than you might think. Gets old quick, even in Mexico with it's very lenient 180 day visa.

There are other types of visas besides a tourist visa.

Some countries have retirement visas or business visas. Sometimes the only requirements are minimum age and financial solvency. In Thailand, if you're 50+ and have 20K in the bank, you can apply for a 1-year retirement visa. In Russia, the 1-year Multiple Entry business visa is just more expensive than the Single Entry Tourist Visa. They don't do any rigorous checking over and above the tourist visa about the nature of your business.

Having said that, we've met a lot of ex-pats who have lived in their new country for years doing visa runs on a Tourist Visa. In Panama, we met a family of four who had to drive to the Costa Rican border every 60 or 90 days depending on whether their tourist visa or vehicle permit was expiring. They've been doing that for 15 years!

In Thailand, the visa run is a time-honoured tradition amongst ex-pats. There are whole industries dedicated to getting farangs (foreigners) out and back into the country in as little time and fuss as possible.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 05:17:13 AM by EndlessJourney »
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LAGuy

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #203 on: February 20, 2017, 07:04:24 AM »
One thing that tends to drive slow travel is visa limits. The vast majority of countries have a maximum stay if 90 days. Leaving the country just to reset (if allowed) is a lot more of a PITA than you might think. Gets old quick, even in Mexico with it's very lenient 180 day visa.

There are other types of visas besides a tourist visa.

Some countries have retirement visas or business visas. Sometimes the only requirements are minimum age and financial solvency. In Thailand, if you're 50+ and have 20K in the bank, you can apply for a 1-year retirement visa. In Russia, the 1-year Multiple Entry business visa is just more expensive than the Single Entry Tourist Visa. They don't do any rigorous checking over and above the tourist visa about the nature of your business.

Having said that, we've met a lot of ex-pats who have lived in their new country for years doing visa runs on a Tourist Visa. In Panama, we met a family of four who had to drive to the Costa Rican border every 60 or 90 days depending on whether their tourist visa or vehicle permit was expiring. They've been doing that for 15 years!

In Thailand, the visa run is a time-honoured tradition amongst ex-pats. There are whole industries dedicated to getting farangs (foreigners) out and back into the country in as little time and fuss as possible.

Even the retirement visa in Thailand is a PITA. You still have to present yourself to immigration every 90 days (though you can do so through via mail or an agent, but it's just one more cost). If you want to leave the country on a trip, you need to go down to immigration to apply for a reentry permit or they'll cancel your retirement visa. Plus the ongoing costs with yearly renewals, etc. Visa issues are no doubt one of the biggest headaches to deal with for slow travel. It's not so bad when you're starting off...you probably want to make visa runs to visit other countries anyways. But I could see where eventually you just get sick of it and want to go back home at some point. I can see myself waking up in a cold sweat thinking about my immigration issues the same way I do now wondering if my car is parked in a street sweeping zone (I don't own a car any longer). The easiest country by far is probably the Philippines where I think you can stay like 3 years on 6 month tourist visa extensions at which point a visa run to reset the clock is required. After that, some Central and South American countries (Belize, Panama, Ecuador) are specifically geared towards US retirees and you can even apply for citizenship after a time. But for all the retirement visas, I think you need to be at least 50 (35 in the Philippines) which makes it a bit of a ways off for early retirees.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #204 on: February 24, 2017, 06:20:34 PM »
I do get "travel fatigue" in some third world countries. I find it especially draining and heartbreaking in some places to see the poverty, the masses of  children begging,,homelessness, and starving dogs. Even the level of untreated physical disabilities can be astounding. While I do find it extremely humbling and it gives me a greater perspective of thevwirkd and a desire to "do more...do anything" to help, it can be emotionally draining.
Ugh. Me too. I feel the same way. Still haven't recharged from my last slow travel trip through some of these parts of the world. While it has greatly broadened my perspective on what is 'enough' to live on, I strongly feel the drain you speak of. It has lead me to focus on making my own small part of the world better in the ways I can; doesn't help many people, or even maybe those most in need, but I have decided to focus on my sphere of control.

I very much appreciate the fact that I had to resources to leave those areas at anytime I wished. So greatful for everything I have.
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jim555

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #205 on: February 25, 2017, 06:53:37 AM »
Based on the latest ACA proposals it looks like three years then Medicaid is gone.  For me it is just before I turn 55.  I need to sell my place and go into travel mode from 55-65, then I can come back to get Medicare.  It is something I have been pondering for a while anyway.  So summers in England and winters in Thailand?

deborah

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #206 on: February 25, 2017, 12:45:23 PM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.



pudding

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #207 on: February 25, 2017, 01:42:55 PM »
I do get "travel fatigue" in some third world countries. I find it especially draining and heartbreaking in some places to see the poverty, the masses of  children begging,,homelessness, and starving dogs. Even the level of untreated physical disabilities can be astounding. While I do find it extremely humbling and it gives me a greater perspective of thevwirkd and a desire to "do more...do anything" to help, it can be emotionally draining.

It got to me the same way too.

At first it was all a novelty and a tendency to see it as exotic and even to look down on my home country and its 'uptight' ways and laws.

Next I started to notice that some of the things seemed irritating.. like why don't the local people do something about the broken in half cast iron drain cover  on the sidewalk that anyone could fall through?  and a month later still nothing done, actually there was 'something' someone had put a tree branch in it as a 'warning'  and why leave the condiments out in the full sun and ants crawling all over them? and the towel in the restaurant restroom, why does it smell like shit.. literally.

Then it just became like that I didn't really like my own thoughts....  gangs of 9 and 10 year old kids with no clothes or maybe a pair of ancient filthy shorts on covered in dirt and sniffing glue at 2am in the street in full view of everyone.... and no one doing anything about it, not the cops not anyone...   and I'd find myself thinking the people here are retarded and get what they actually create themselves...

And then I came back to my home country and heard sjw's saying that x% of the children in my country live in child poverty... and thought to myself nahhh... sorry but they don't, you got to get out more often.

Then someone saying "well you know they don't have money there, so they smash their children's ankle's so that they can make money begging" like it's a quaint local custom that you'd better not question for fear of being called a racist.


arebelspy

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #208 on: February 25, 2017, 02:12:28 PM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

I would 100% agree, normally.

I've often argued that people who plan a FIRE budget for overseas can go there, find they don't like it, yet are "stuck" because they can't support a budget back home.  I was wary of this, and built our ER budget so we could go home, even though we like to travel.

The only tiny part where I disagree (and now am disagreeing with my past self) is the nature of why he may not be able to come back.

It either shows he didn't save enough OR it shows how * the US healthcare system is.

Here was his comment:
Quote
Based on the latest ACA proposals it looks like three years then Medicaid is gone.  For me it is just before I turn 55.  I need to sell my place and go into travel mode from 55-65, then I can come back to get Medicare.  It is something I have been pondering for a while anyway.

If he has enough right now to live in the US, pay for some healthcare, and all his other expenses, then we revert to no-ACA, and he can't afford it for a few years, but then can afford it again as medicare kicks in, well, maybe he didn't save enough, or maybe our backwards healthcare system is to blame.  =/
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Cassie

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #209 on: February 25, 2017, 02:21:06 PM »
WE were in Thailand in Nov and it was 90 with a ton of humidity.  Maybe other parts of it are cooler?  I find the countries in Central America to get depressing so would not want to live there even for a short time. They are fun to visit but the poverty is so sad. I knew a few people that did what ARS was talking about and got stuck due to LCOL and they wanted to come home.  One woman had to do a go fund me for the plane ticket and then stay with a friend when she got here and she was 70. Repealing the ACA would be a terrible injustice but the current admin does not care about the American people at all. Ugh!

dixonge

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #210 on: February 25, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.
Sure you do. It's correct for your target country.

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gerardc

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #211 on: February 25, 2017, 04:16:57 PM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. What if you want to live abroad? That's like saying "your stash is insufficient if it can't sustain you in a HCOL area". Maybe you don't want to live in a HCOL area.

arebelspy

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #212 on: February 25, 2017, 04:40:36 PM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. What if you want to live abroad? That's like saying "your stash is insufficient if it can't sustain you in a HCOL area". Maybe you don't want to live in a HCOL area.
Foreign countries are just such a different paradigm.

If you've spent significant time there, cool.

If not, I'd go try it out and/or have backup plans.
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jim555

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #213 on: February 25, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
I could start my pension at 55 which would cover the health insurance.  Don't want to take it so early, taking it at 62-65 would be much better.

deborah

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #214 on: February 25, 2017, 05:28:35 PM »
The key word was NEED - not want or anything else. If you NEED to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

If you want to go to foreign shores - by all means do so, but it is advisable to have enough so you can retire where you want to, not where you need to. As stated by others, you may need to come back.

My parents needed me to visit them very regularly form just after I retired. I may have wanted to retire to foreign shores, but that wouldn't have worked out. Families may need to be in their country of origin for the school years...

The other thing is that if your money is in your own currency, you may have problems in foreign shores. For many years, the English would retire to Spain, because it was cheap, and their retirement pensions bought mansions rather than cottages (and the life that went with it). Unfortunately for them, the Spanish currency became much better, and the pound declined in relative value. THIS COULD HAPPEN IN ANY UNDER DEVELOPED FOREIGN COUNTRY. Suddenly, they could not maintain their lifestyle. There have been a number of documentaries on this particular retirement problem. The south east Asian countries are all developing quite fast, and it could happen to you in the next 10 years if you count on their relative cheapness to get you through your FIRE lifestyle.



dixonge

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #215 on: February 25, 2017, 07:12:01 PM »
The key word was NEED - not want or anything else. If you NEED to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

If you want to go to foreign shores - by all means do so, but it is advisable to have enough so you can retire where you want to, not where you need to. As stated by others, you may need to come back.

My parents needed me to visit them very regularly form just after I retired. I may have wanted to retire to foreign shores, but that wouldn't have worked out. Families may need to be in their country of origin for the school years...

The other thing is that if your money is in your own currency, you may have problems in foreign shores. For many years, the English would retire to Spain, because it was cheap, and their retirement pensions bought mansions rather than cottages (and the life that went with it). Unfortunately for them, the Spanish currency became much better, and the pound declined in relative value. THIS COULD HAPPEN IN ANY UNDER DEVELOPED FOREIGN COUNTRY. Suddenly, they could not maintain their lifestyle. There have been a number of documentaries on this particular retirement problem. The south east Asian countries are all developing quite fast, and it could happen to you in the next 10 years if you count on their relative cheapness to get you through your FIRE lifestyle.
But I do have the correct stash *there*. And *there* could be another country, or just another state, or another region, or another city.

Also, I *need* SS and my pension to not decline or go under. And I *need* inflation to stay under 5%. Do all of these other *needs* mean that I don't have the correct stash? Or maybe all of them are just variables to be accounted for as best I can. Maybe?

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Metric Mouse

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #216 on: February 26, 2017, 07:18:38 PM »
I do get "travel fatigue" in some third world countries. I find it especially draining and heartbreaking in some places to see the poverty, the masses of  children begging,,homelessness, and starving dogs. Even the level of untreated physical disabilities can be astounding. While I do find it extremely humbling and it gives me a greater perspective of thevwirkd and a desire to "do more...do anything" to help, it can be emotionally draining.

It got to me the same way too.

At first it was all a novelty and a tendency to see it as exotic and even to look down on my home country and its 'uptight' ways and laws.

Next I started to notice that some of the things seemed irritating.. like why don't the local people do something about the broken in half cast iron drain cover  on the sidewalk that anyone could fall through?  and a month later still nothing done, actually there was 'something' someone had put a tree branch in it as a 'warning'  and why leave the condiments out in the full sun and ants crawling all over them? and the towel in the restaurant restroom, why does it smell like shit.. literally.

Then it just became like that I didn't really like my own thoughts....  gangs of 9 and 10 year old kids with no clothes or maybe a pair of ancient filthy shorts on covered in dirt and sniffing glue at 2am in the street in full view of everyone.... and no one doing anything about it, not the cops not anyone...   and I'd find myself thinking the people here are retarded and get what they actually create themselves...

And then I came back to my home country and heard sjw's saying that x% of the children in my country live in child poverty... and thought to myself nahhh... sorry but they don't, you got to get out more often.

Then someone saying "well you know they don't have money there, so they smash their children's ankle's so that they can make money begging" like it's a quaint local custom that you'd better not question for fear of being called a racist.
Ugh. Depressing, but so true.
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dougules

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #217 on: February 27, 2017, 10:28:38 AM »
If you need to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. What if you want to live abroad? That's like saying "your stash is insufficient if it can't sustain you in a HCOL area". Maybe you don't want to live in a HCOL area.
Foreign countries are just such a different paradigm.

If you've spent significant time there, cool.

If not, I'd go try it out and/or have backup plans.

True, although I'd say you could also say the same for different regions.  My husband is from PA, and he still has occasional culture shock with how people think a little differently in AL.  Yes it's more when you cross a border, but anybody that moves even within their own country should make sure they're going to be happy in their new location or have the means to go back. 

gerardc

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #218 on: February 27, 2017, 07:13:49 PM »
And everyone who reduces expenses by trading their truck for a bicycle or filet mignon for rice & beans should make sure they have a big enough stash, in case they want to go back. Oh wait...

EndlessJourney

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #219 on: February 28, 2017, 03:28:23 AM »
And everyone who reduces expenses by trading their truck for a bicycle or filet mignon for rice & beans should make sure they have a big enough stash, in case they want to go back. Oh wait...

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jim555

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #220 on: February 28, 2017, 07:46:24 AM »
I see a lot of concern about coming back if it doesn't work out.  As long as you have some money it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  Just fly into state X and do AirBnB for a month till you can get a rental.  From there buy a car and a place, if you want.  Expensive mistake but not FIRE ending.

dougules

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #221 on: February 28, 2017, 10:51:59 AM »
I see a lot of concern about coming back if it doesn't work out.  As long as you have some money it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  Just fly into state X and do AirBnB for a month till you can get a rental.  From there buy a car and a place, if you want.  Expensive mistake but not FIRE ending.
I think the issue isn't the logistics of coming back but the income needed to live in a HCOL country or area if your FIRE income doesn't support it.

  If you can only fund a retirement plan to live in a LCOL country or area (or in a van down by the river) and end up hating it you might not be able to live at that same $$ level back in your home country without it eating into too much of your stash. If I retire with enough to live in a very low cost area of Mexico (or a van down by the river) where I have enough money to live there but not enough to live in the US - especially in a HCOL place like I do now - I wouldn't be able to remain retired if I ever wanted to come back here. Not a problem if you are OK going back to work (and are still young and healthy enough) but a big problem if you want to remain retired.

While I agree thats not enough reason to NOT retire asap if you're flexible or pretty sure you won't ever change your mind about where or how you live, I do think its a good reason to have a back up plan and income (or getting a job if needed) if you aren't sure it'll work out for you. .

+1

Location can have a lot bigger impact on your happiness than things.

Also, location isn't really something a lot of people can test out before they FIRE.  Truck for bicycle or filet mignon for rice & beans are something easy to figure out before you hit the big red eject button. 

jim555

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #222 on: February 28, 2017, 10:56:34 AM »
I am in a HCOL now.  I was planning on going to a LCOL area eventually anyway.  I see your point.  The great thing about FIREing is location is no longer that important since income is not related to a job.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #223 on: February 28, 2017, 03:17:09 PM »
Spartana, I completely agree. Also sometimes location is really important for happiness. I have moved a lot but absolutely love where we are at now. Even though where we live is not as expensive as where you live 2 of my boys live in Wichita, KS and I am always amazed at how cheap everything there is. In fact I will be flying there twice in a few months time for dental work because it is about a fourth of the cost and I need some expensive work done.  Now if we moved there with our 65k income we would be much better off financially then we are now. But we have such great friends here and I love the beauty of the area and the weather. Life is a trade-off.

LAGuy

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #224 on: February 28, 2017, 05:07:24 PM »
I think deborah's point,while perhaps a bit harshly stated, does have merit. As somebody who plans to live abroad for a significant portion of FIRE, I think the allure of living overseas is more so you can live like a baller on what's otherwise a modest sum here in the US. Secondarily the fact that you could significantly cut expenses in an emergency is also an attractive factor. What you really don't want to be doing is living poor in a 3rd world country...there is a certain argument to be made that you threw away the silver spoon you were born with here in the West. And you really do need to be able to come back to the West at some point...there's a good chance you don't want to spend your doddering years overseas. Places like Thailand are full of bitter old pensioners who can barely survive in Chang Mai.

For me, the solution has to been to target what I think a moderate FIRE income in a low cost of living area here in the US looks like. I plan to live large on that same income overseas.

dixonge

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #225 on: February 28, 2017, 05:31:13 PM »
I think deborah's point,while perhaps a bit harshly stated, does have merit. As somebody who plans to live abroad for a significant portion of FIRE, I think the allure of living overseas is more so you can live like a baller on what's otherwise a modest sum here in the US. Secondarily the fact that you could significantly cut expenses in an emergency is also an attractive factor. What you really don't want to be doing is living poor in a 3rd world country...there is a certain argument to be made that you threw away the silver spoon you were born with here in the West. And you really do need to be able to come back to the West at some point...there's a good chance you don't want to spend your doddering years overseas. Places like Thailand are full of bitter old pensioners who can barely survive in Chang Mai.

For me, the solution has to been to target what I think a moderate FIRE income in a low cost of living area here in the US looks like. I plan to live large on that same income overseas.
Yeah, our plan involves saving 50% of pension/SS income. Eventually we will have a nest egg capable of replacing the SS, or pension, if needed. Plus we *love* expat life. The LCOL aspect is just icing.

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gerardc

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #226 on: February 28, 2017, 08:44:47 PM »
LCOL country for a few years makes a lot of sense:
- Culture fun as hell
- Live big for half the price
- Withdraw < 4% so your stash likely still grows

Then you come back in later years with more (real) money than when you started. Agreed that leaving for Mexico with $300k fully retired is kinda dumb...

jim555

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #227 on: February 28, 2017, 08:55:26 PM »
You see a lot of guys going to Thailand without a proper stasche, don't budget right, and getting stuck.  You never want to go to a place like that without proper funding.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #228 on: March 01, 2017, 07:41:43 AM »
You see a lot of guys going to Thailand without a proper stasche, don't budget right, and getting stuck.  You never want to go to a place like that without proper funding.

You see quite a bit of that in Hawaii too!
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #229 on: March 04, 2017, 07:32:47 PM »
You see a lot of guys going to Thailand without a proper stasche, don't budget right, and getting stuck.  You never want to go to a place like that without proper funding.

You see quite a bit of that in Hawaii too!
What a terrible place to be stuck... :)
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #230 on: March 04, 2017, 08:44:42 PM »
The key word was NEED - not want or anything else. If you NEED to go to foreign shores to FIRE, you actually don't have the correct stash to maintain your lifestyle.

If you want to go to foreign shores - by all means do so, but it is advisable to have enough so you can retire where you want to, not where you need to. As stated by others, you may need to come back.

My parents needed me to visit them very regularly form just after I retired. I may have wanted to retire to foreign shores, but that wouldn't have worked out. Families may need to be in their country of origin for the school years...

The other thing is that if your money is in your own currency, you may have problems in foreign shores. For many years, the English would retire to Spain, because it was cheap, and their retirement pensions bought mansions rather than cottages (and the life that went with it). Unfortunately for them, the Spanish currency became much better, and the pound declined in relative value. THIS COULD HAPPEN IN ANY UNDER DEVELOPED FOREIGN COUNTRY. Suddenly, they could not maintain their lifestyle. There have been a number of documentaries on this particular retirement problem. The south east Asian countries are all developing quite fast, and it could happen to you in the next 10 years if you count on their relative cheapness to get you through your FIRE lifestyle.

Very good points that I had not fully considered.  I agree that if you have insufficient funds to retire in your own country, you probably shouldn't consider yourself FIRE.  As you said, family issues may require you to stay home or come back.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #231 on: March 05, 2017, 08:40:43 AM »
If you don't have enough to FIRE in your own country, but your plan is to go to a LCOL country, then you should say you are FIREd if that is your plan.  Not everyone is the same.  All FIRE plans are flexible and adjustments get made as needed.  It is like saying you need enough to stay in a HCOL to say you are FIREd, that is silly.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #232 on: March 05, 2017, 11:42:14 AM »
If you don't have enough to FIRE in your own country, but your plan is to go to a LCOL country, then you should say you are FIREd if that is your plan.  Not everyone is the same.  All FIRE plans are flexible and adjustments get made as needed.  It is like saying you need enough to stay in a HCOL to say you are FIREd, that is silly.

I agree. You can absolutely FIRE to a lower COL (or country).

It's just that one planning to do so should do it cautiously; there is a much greater chance for unhappiness. Research, and trials runs as much as possible is important.

And relying on the lower budget means you have less flexibility, monetarily. If you're flexible about giving it a shot and going back (including going back to work) if it doesn't work out, cool.  No worries.

It's just something to be aware of.  :)
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #233 on: March 06, 2017, 12:58:18 AM »
If you don't have enough to FIRE in your own country, but your plan is to go to a LCOL country, then you should say you are FIREd if that is your plan.  Not everyone is the same.  All FIRE plans are flexible and adjustments get made as needed.  It is like saying you need enough to stay in a HCOL to say you are FIREd, that is silly.

I agree. You can absolutely FIRE to a lower COL (or country).

It's just that one planning to do so should do it cautiously; there is a much greater chance for unhappiness. Research, and trials runs as much as possible is important.

And relying on the lower budget means you have less flexibility, monetarily. If you're flexible about giving it a shot and going back (including going back to work) if it doesn't work out, cool.  No worries.

It's just something to be aware of.  :)

I guess if you're relatively young, healthy and adventurous, you could plan to spend several years in early FIRE in a super low COLC, backpacking through India and SE Asia for example. Then you get a way to avoid that potentially devastating early sequence of poor returns risk, your stach will grow much faster due to <<4% SWR being taken, and after a while you can more confidently sustain a return to home/HCOL.

I think many people as they get 'older' (>70)  and health issues start to build might not want to be in a permanent traveller situation, but when you're young, footloose and fancy free? Sounds like a great plan. It doesn't have to be a commitment for the rest of your life.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #234 on: March 06, 2017, 01:07:19 AM »
If you don't have enough to FIRE in your own country, but your plan is to go to a LCOL country, then you should say you are FIREd if that is your plan.  Not everyone is the same.  All FIRE plans are flexible and adjustments get made as needed.  It is like saying you need enough to stay in a HCOL to say you are FIREd, that is silly.

I agree. You can absolutely FIRE to a lower COL (or country).

It's just that one planning to do so should do it cautiously; there is a much greater chance for unhappiness. Research, and trials runs as much as possible is important.

And relying on the lower budget means you have less flexibility, monetarily. If you're flexible about giving it a shot and going back (including going back to work) if it doesn't work out, cool.  No worries.

It's just something to be aware of.  :)

I guess if you're relatively young, healthy and adventurous, you could plan to spend several years in early FIRE in a super low COLC, backpacking through India and SE Asia for example. Then you get a way to avoid that potentially devastating early sequence of poor returns risk, your stach will grow much faster due to <<4% SWR being taken, and after a while you can more confidently sustain a return to home/HCOL.

I think many people as they get 'older' (>70)  and health issues start to build might not want to be in a permanent traveller situation, but when you're young, footloose and fancy free? Sounds like a great plan. It doesn't have to be a commitment for the rest of your life.

I definitely agree that's a good plan.

Not quite what we're talking about here, whereby one would be doing a 4% plan but at the expense level of the lower COL area for the permanent budget... precluding using the lower COL area to do < 4% and let the stache grow.

Because theoretically, if you can do < 4%, you worked too long.

The key either way, I suppose, is being flexible. Whether that's spending less in early years, or being willing to go back to work, or being willing to try a sabbatical to test out a place, or whatever.  Once again, that idea seems pretty key.
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2017, 01:28:47 AM »
Life can send you curved balls. You need to have ideas about how to deal with them even (or especially) in your low col plans. When I left Uni, one of my schoolmates traveled to India for a while (I think she was away for 10 months - it's a long time ago) and caught one of those diseases that stops you being able to do much for several years. Another friend from Uni went to Egypt for six months, and on his last week there hitchhiked in a jeep, that rolled, and he was in traction in an Egyptian hospital for several more months with a fractured pelvis. Unfortunately, it was when blood screening for AIDS wasn't much good.

These things are very, very unlikely, but it is always good to have ideas about how you would deal with things that blow holes into your FIRE plans.



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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2017, 01:45:45 AM »
Life can send you curved balls. You need to have ideas about how to deal with them even (or especially) in your low col plans. When I left Uni, one of my schoolmates traveled to India for a while (I think she was away for 10 months - it's a long time ago) and caught one of those diseases that stops you being able to do much for several years. Another friend from Uni went to Egypt for six months, and on his last week there hitchhiked in a jeep, that rolled, and he was in traction in an Egyptian hospital for several more months with a fractured pelvis. Unfortunately, it was when blood screening for AIDS wasn't much good.

These things are very, very unlikely, but it is always good to have ideas about how you would deal with things that blow holes into your FIRE plans.
Those are some seriously unfortunate events.
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2017, 10:39:50 AM »
Life can send you curved balls. You need to have ideas about how to deal with them even (or especially) in your low col plans. When I left Uni, one of my schoolmates traveled to India for a while (I think she was away for 10 months - it's a long time ago) and caught one of those diseases that stops you being able to do much for several years. Another friend from Uni went to Egypt for six months, and on his last week there hitchhiked in a jeep, that rolled, and he was in traction in an Egyptian hospital for several more months with a fractured pelvis. Unfortunately, it was when blood screening for AIDS wasn't much good.

These things are very, very unlikely, but it is always good to have ideas about how you would deal with things that blow holes into your FIRE plans.
Those are some seriously unfortunate events.

That's terrible, but stuff could happen to you in the developed world, too.  I would think you'd need a plan whether you decide to stay in Kansas or bike across Zimbabwe. 

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2017, 01:13:24 PM »
However, you are more susceptible to these things as a permanent traveler.

Often, you have a limited understanding of the language, and are more at risk of things going wrong. When I was waiting for a train in an overhead station in Tokyo, suddenly everyone else disappeared, and then came the earthquake. The warning over the loudspeakers was in Japanese. People can try to warn you of things, but you just don't understand.

You don't know the risks associated with there you are. And people can tell you the risks, but they appear trivial to you. Each year tourists die in the Australian desert because they haven't taken what seem to us to be the most basic precautions. Every car hire place will tell travelers to take these precautions, and yet, each year people die - or we have to mount very expensive rescue operations to save them from themselves, and nobody involved gets paid for their effort - which is a drain on remote communities. Just a month ago two tourists decided to visit a National Park on an incredibly hot day. They went for a short walk, didn't fill out the form that is in all car parks to say who they were and what walks they were planning to take, didn't take water with them, didn't wear hats, must have got confused, and left the path (although not far) and died. Nobody else was stupid enough to visit that park for a couple of days. It took emergency people several days to find them, because they had separated, and had fallen in amongst rocks. I'm sure that there are similar stories of "incredibly stupid tourists" in your home state too.



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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2017, 04:51:58 PM »
However, you are more susceptible to these things as a permanent traveler.

Often, you have a limited understanding of the language, and are more at risk of things going wrong. When I was waiting for a train in an overhead station in Tokyo, suddenly everyone else disappeared, and then came the earthquake. The warning over the loudspeakers was in Japanese. People can try to warn you of things, but you just don't understand.

You don't know the risks associated with there you are. And people can tell you the risks, but they appear trivial to you. Each year tourists die in the Australian desert because they haven't taken what seem to us to be the most basic precautions. Every car hire place will tell travelers to take these precautions, and yet, each year people die - or we have to mount very expensive rescue operations to save them from themselves, and nobody involved gets paid for their effort - which is a drain on remote communities. Just a month ago two tourists decided to visit a National Park on an incredibly hot day. They went for a short walk, didn't fill out the form that is in all car parks to say who they were and what walks they were planning to take, didn't take water with them, didn't wear hats, must have got confused, and left the path (although not far) and died. Nobody else was stupid enough to visit that park for a couple of days. It took emergency people several days to find them, because they had separated, and had fallen in amongst rocks. I'm sure that there are similar stories of "incredibly stupid tourists" in your home state too.

While I appreciate some good retirement fearmongering as much as the next person, bad shit happens all the time (traveling or not) and you can't prepare for every possible outcome.  You can easily not do stupid shit though.  That takes care of most of my worries.  For the rest, I'll just adapt.

I don't really see how any of this is travel specific.
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2017, 06:27:41 PM »
Agreed - I got a bit off topic, but I guess that forever travelers need to get a bit more attuned to looking for implications (of any type) of comments by locals, because they just don't come from the same culture.



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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2017, 07:07:00 PM »
Posting to follow.

Also curious...spartana and others who may own a house in the US...how do you handle that?  Rent it out, I assume.  Any issues / concerns / lessons / tricks there?

I'm considering doing the PT thing in a few years when my youngest leaves the nest.  I have a paid off home and am not sure what to do with it.
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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2017, 08:28:17 PM »
If you want to go to foreign shores - by all means do so, but it is advisable to have enough so you can retire where you want to, not where you need to. As stated by others, you may need to come back.

During the four years we weren't working, we regularly visited the family back in the states. The parents are now safely ensconced in an assisted living facility. There really isn't a scenario where we would *need* to come back...

My parents needed me to visit them very regularly form just after I retired. I may have wanted to retire to foreign shores, but that wouldn't have worked out. Families may need to be in their country of origin for the school years...

We see my parents less than when we lived nearby, but often enough. Given the longevity in my gene-pool I decided early on not to work until I was 70 while waiting for both of them to be gone. My grandfather's sister lived to 102.

The other thing is that if your money is in your own currency, you may have problems in foreign shores. For many years, the English would retire to Spain, because it was cheap, and their retirement pensions bought mansions rather than cottages (and the life that went with it). Unfortunately for them, the Spanish currency became much better, and the pound declined in relative value. THIS COULD HAPPEN IN ANY UNDER DEVELOPED FOREIGN COUNTRY. Suddenly, they could not maintain their lifestyle.

We'll be saving back around 50% of our pension for at least a decade. If the peso/dollar relationship suddenly reverses we'll be fine. Worst case, we just move somewhere else. We don't plan on buying any property for a long time.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2017, 09:16:46 PM »
Posting to follow.

Also curious...spartana and others who may own a house in the US...how do you handle that?  Rent it out, I assume.  Any issues / concerns / lessons / tricks there?

I'm considering doing the PT thing in a few years when my youngest leaves the nest.  I have a paid off home and am not sure what to do with it.
I only travel p/t (usually 2 months max at one time but often less) and just in North America because I bring my dog with me so just leave the house empty and have my sister check on it once a week. If I were planning on travelling full time I'd sell and just rent in various places.  I've also had short term roommates who have watch the house while I'm gone. That's probably the best set up.

Wasn't your sister living there at one point?

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2017, 09:46:54 PM »
The "sell everything" part is scary.  We like our furniture and it was expensive.  I could sell it, but if we start slow long term travel and discover we don't like it as much as we anticipated, what do you do?  i would hate to sell my furniture used and then have to go out and buy new (or used) furniture that I may not like as much as what we have.

As a result, I am considering storing my stuff for a year or so, until we discover whether we really enjoy the nomadic lifestyle or not.

We have saved plenty, regardless of where we decide to travel or settle.  I am not concerned about exchange rates or getting priced out of the market.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #245 on: March 07, 2017, 05:13:31 PM »
The "sell everything" part is scary.  We like our furniture and it was expensive.  I could sell it, but if we start slow long term travel and discover we don't like it as much as we anticipated, what do you do?  i would hate to sell my furniture used and then have to go out and buy new (or used) furniture that I may not like as much as what we have.

As a result, I am considering storing my stuff for a year or so, until we discover whether we really enjoy the nomadic lifestyle or not.

We have saved plenty, regardless of where we decide to travel or settle.  I am not concerned about exchange rates or getting priced out of the market.

This was on my mind as well. But if you really get down to it, you could just buy it all over again. Sure, there might be a piece or two that is tough to let go but surely you could find something comparable again. I mean, in the scheme of things is it really that much money? I mean, maybe it'll run you what...as much as $10K to deck out a new place? Clearly, that's not the sort of thing you want to be doing all the time in FIRE but as a one time cost to settle back in somewhere it would be a pittance of the 'stash. And compare it to the costs of moving, storing, and moving your stuff again. Movers are going to cost you at least $1k each time. Storage over even a year is going to seriously add up...storage rentals can be a couple of hundred dollars a month. Better to just commit and let it all go. I mean, I guess if you can't live without a place fully decorated by Restoration Hardware I could see not wanting to buy it all over again, but then if that's the case slow travel probably isn't for you anyways.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #246 on: March 07, 2017, 05:54:33 PM »
I'm thinking do a trial run for like 6 months to see if the lifestyle is something I want.

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Re: Sell everything and become a Permanent Traveler?
« Reply #247 on: March 07, 2017, 10:49:48 PM »
We kept a few boxes of seasonal clothes and mementos in my parent's closet when we sold our home and hit the road. Every couple of years we fly back to visit them. We go through those boxes in storage and then end up throwing out even more stuff that at the time, we thought we'd want to keep forever. The longer you are away from your possessions, the less hold they have on you. You start to realize the stuff you thought you could never live without... well, you're doing quite fine without it and don't even miss it now.

Technology has also allowed us to throw out a lot of printed pictures, VHS, CDs, DVDs, cassette tapes, etc. I've digitized a lot of our old photos, and our extensive video and audio collection. Pretty much everything can fit on a single smartphone these days. I do make sure to make lots of backups though, physical and on the cloud.
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