Author Topic: Peterson on Climate Change  (Read 4802 times)

chevy1956

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Peterson on Climate Change
« on: February 01, 2023, 08:12:36 PM »
We had a great discussion on climate change a while back and I just listened to Jordan Peterson on the Joe Rogan show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0G5aSGWhaI

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.

Who doesn't love this ?

chemistk

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2023, 05:58:04 AM »

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.


I'm curious, what leads you to make these statements?


Who doesn't love this ?


Specifically talking about this clip, I didn't hear anything substantive other than a poorly justified reason to, I can only assume, refocus? focus more? on fossil-fuel based energy. It's hard to actually figure out the point he's trying to make other than his fear that we're careening toward population controls?

dcheesi

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2023, 06:47:39 AM »
We had a great discussion on climate change a while back and I just listened to Jordan Peterson on the Joe Rogan show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0G5aSGWhaI

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.

Who doesn't love this ?
NOT SURE IF SARCASM
(≖_≖ )
OR SERIOUS

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2023, 07:24:20 AM »
We had a great discussion on climate change a while back and I just listened to Jordan Peterson on the Joe Rogan show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0G5aSGWhaI

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.

Who doesn't love this ?
NOT SURE IF SARCASM
(≖_≖ )
OR SERIOUS

I know...I'm so confused...

Kris

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2023, 07:34:55 AM »
We had a great discussion on climate change a while back and I just listened to Jordan Peterson on the Joe Rogan show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0G5aSGWhaI

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.

Who doesn't love this ?
NOT SURE IF SARCASM
(≖_≖ )
OR SERIOUS

I literally require this to be sarcasm.

nouseforausername

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2023, 09:55:09 AM »
Grabs popcorn.

Bumps.

TreeLeaf

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2023, 11:03:30 AM »
I would bet my red pet rock named Bobby that this is sarcasm.

bacchi

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2023, 11:11:18 AM »
Yeah, the OP definitely satisfies Poe's Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

GuitarStv

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2023, 11:23:30 AM »
We had a great discussion on climate change a while back and I just listened to Jordan Peterson on the Joe Rogan show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0G5aSGWhaI

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.

Who doesn't love this ?
NOT SURE IF SARCASM
(≖_≖ )
OR SERIOUS

I literally require this to be sarcasm.

Peterson is a trained psychiatrist with a specialization in psychiatry as it relates to thought processes leading to totalitarianism and also has some background in both political science and English lit.  He has no training and has performed no academic research on climate change, but is a contrarian and regularly announces his skepticism of climate change - usually attempting to weave his views on modern political thought and totalitarianism into the package.

This is clearly sarcasm, as calling someone with such credentials 'an expert on climate change' is patently ridiculous.

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2023, 01:52:49 PM »

JP is just so smart. He is such an expert on climate change.


I'm curious, what leads you to make these statements?

The way he debates the issue of climate change. He uses the best scientific facts I've ever heard.

Specifically talking about this clip, I didn't hear anything substantive other than a poorly justified reason to, I can only assume, refocus? focus more? on fossil-fuel based energy. It's hard to actually figure out the point he's trying to make other than his fear that we're careening toward population controls?

I think you've understood him 100% correctly. I relate it to the story of the bird and the ape. Have you heard about that. The bird was eaten by the ape and that was the end of society. That is why we must fight against the corrupt system that consists of the liberals trying to control all of you and the poor are suffering.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 01:54:20 PM by chevy1956 »

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2023, 01:57:56 PM »
Peterson is a trained psychiatrist with a specialization in psychiatry as it relates to thought processes leading to totalitarianism and also has some background in both political science and English lit.  He has no training and has performed no academic research on climate change, but is a contrarian and regularly announces his skepticism of climate change - usually attempting to weave his views on modern political thought and totalitarianism into the package.

This is clearly sarcasm, as calling someone with such credentials 'an expert on climate change' is patently ridiculous. really smart.

I assume you made a slight mistake in your post so I updated it.

I bolded the key part. The guy is a genius.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2023, 01:59:38 PM »
I would bet my red pet rock named Bobby that this is sarcasm.

I wouldn't be so quick to take that bet...

TreeLeaf

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2023, 02:11:16 PM »
I would bet my red pet rock named Bobby that this is sarcasm.

I wouldn't be so quick to take that bet...

Wow I really have not been good at interpreting things lately.

I thought for sure this had to be sarcasm.

dcheesi

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2023, 03:18:10 PM »
I would bet my red pet rock named Bobby that this is sarcasm.

I wouldn't be so quick to take that bet...

Wow I really have not been good at interpreting things lately.

I thought for sure this had to be sarcasm.
Now it's feeling more like a particularly weird attempt at trolling?

There's a poster on another forum who regularly claims to be either G-d or an alien, or both, with cryptic posts written from that perspective. But occasionally in other threads, they'll post more or less normally. No one's sure if they're crazy or just an elaborate recurring troll... someone called it "performance art", and perhaps that's what it is?

This poster is starting to feel a bit like that.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2023, 03:24:29 PM »
I would bet my red pet rock named Bobby that this is sarcasm.

I wouldn't be so quick to take that bet...

Wow I really have not been good at interpreting things lately.

I thought for sure this had to be sarcasm.
Now it's feeling more like a particularly weird attempt at trolling?

There's a poster on another forum who regularly claims to be either G-d or an alien, or both, with cryptic posts written from that perspective. But occasionally in other threads, they'll post more or less normally. No one's sure if they're crazy or just an elaborate recurring troll... someone called it "performance art", and perhaps that's what it is?

This poster is starting to feel a bit like that.

I doubt it. I quickly reviewed the interactions I've had with this poster and this position seems legitimately in line with their earnest attitudes as expressed in other threads.

There are a lot of people who find Peterson legitimately compelling and who interpret him as exceptionally intellectually rigorous in his positions.

This is NOT an attitude I share, but I've spent quite a bit of time trying to wrap my mind around pro-Peterson attitudes.

I don't think OP is trolling at all. I think this is his earnest, honest assessment of the material posted, and I suspect he believes that we would all benefit from being more open minded about what he's presenting. As I suspect he would assume our aversion to Peterson to be fueled by leftist ideology and not an academically rigorous position.

At least, that's what I would expect based on OP's previous engagement on the topic of climate change.

Psychstache

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2023, 04:04:24 PM »

Peterson is a trained psychiatrist with a specialization in psychiatry as it relates to thought processes leading to totalitarianism and also has some background in both political science and English lit.  He has no training and has performed no academic research on climate change, but is a contrarian and regularly announces his skepticism of climate change - usually attempting to weave his views on modern political thought and totalitarianism into the package.

This is clearly sarcasm, as calling someone with such credentials 'an expert on climate change' is patently ridiculous.

He's a psychologist, but otherwise all is accurate.

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2023, 06:56:35 PM »
I don't think OP is trolling at all. I think this is his earnest, honest assessment of the material posted, and I suspect he believes that we would all benefit from being more open minded about what he's presenting. As I suspect he would assume our aversion to Peterson to be fueled by leftist ideology and not an academically rigorous position.

At least, that's what I would expect based on OP's previous engagement on the topic of climate change.

This is pretty funny. I posted on a previous climate change thread debunking some of the unscientific comments that were posted related to extreme weather events. One poster even posted a scientific paper trying to prove what I stated was incorrect and that paper was basically in 100% agreement with what I posted.

If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me. I find Peterson continually exasperating and hilarious. I think he is a fool and I don't think stories about the bat and the bird or whatever he makes up has anything at all to do with climate change. I thought it was hilarious and some people would find it funny as well.

Continue on though. You keep doing you.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2023, 06:58:55 PM »
I don't think OP is trolling at all. I think this is his earnest, honest assessment of the material posted, and I suspect he believes that we would all benefit from being more open minded about what he's presenting. As I suspect he would assume our aversion to Peterson to be fueled by leftist ideology and not an academically rigorous position.

At least, that's what I would expect based on OP's previous engagement on the topic of climate change.

This is pretty funny. I posted on a previous climate change thread debunking some of the unscientific comments that were posted related to extreme weather events. One poster even posted a scientific paper trying to prove what I stated was incorrect and that paper was basically in 100% agreement with what I posted.

If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me. I find Peterson continually exasperating and hilarious. I think he is a fool and I don't think stories about the bat and the bird or whatever he makes up has anything at all to do with climate change. I thought it was hilarious and some people would find it funny as well.

Continue on though. You keep doing you.

Man, you got me then.

I totally thought you were being serious. I have to say, you are a difficult one to read. We've exchanged a bit here and there and I always feel like I have no handle on you.

nereo

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2023, 04:16:45 AM »
[
If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me.

Sarcasm tags can be very helpful to other posters.

rosarugosa

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2023, 04:56:12 AM »
Maybe I was just projecting my own viewpoint, but there was never any question in my mind that the original post was sarcastic. 

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2023, 05:38:19 AM »
Maybe I was just projecting my own viewpoint, but there was never any question in my mind that the original post was sarcastic.

We have a number of pro Peterson folks here

nouseforausername

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2023, 07:01:38 AM »
Perhaps OP was reminded of Margaret Thatcher's quote on the “costly and economically damaging” political agenda to limit carbon emissions, and her recognition that climate change dogma “provides a marvelous excuse for worldwide, supra-national socialism.”

[Sarcasm alert -- but that's actually a real quote.]

nouseforausername

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2023, 07:18:09 AM »
Just read a sarcastic passage from Epictetus in Discourses -- and there's an Editor's note stating: "[T]he comment here is sarcastic."

Kris

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2023, 08:05:16 AM »

If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me.

I mean… no?

Malcat wasn’t the only one who couldn’t tell whether it was sarcasm. That’s because there are a fair number of people out there who think this way for real. Which you obviously know because you were imitating them in your comment.

So what it says is, in the absence of clear markers, this is a situation where it would be hard to tell for a lot of people. And this thread is an example of that.

Poe’s Law, as another poster mentioned above.

So if you want people to know right off that it is sarcasm when you are parroting an opinion that exists in the real world, maybe use an /s tag.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2023, 07:55:55 PM »
I don't think OP is trolling at all. I think this is his earnest, honest assessment of the material posted, and I suspect he believes that we would all benefit from being more open minded about what he's presenting. As I suspect he would assume our aversion to Peterson to be fueled by leftist ideology and not an academically rigorous position.

At least, that's what I would expect based on OP's previous engagement on the topic of climate change.

This is pretty funny. I posted on a previous climate change thread debunking some of the unscientific comments that were posted related to extreme weather events. One poster even posted a scientific paper trying to prove what I stated was incorrect and that paper was basically in 100% agreement with what I posted.

If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me. I find Peterson continually exasperating and hilarious. I think he is a fool and I don't think stories about the bat and the bird or whatever he makes up has anything at all to do with climate change. I thought it was hilarious and some people would find it funny as well.

Continue on though. You keep doing you.


I certainly wouldn't describe JP as a fool. Extremely arrogant and as not as smart as many believe, but not a fool. He does have one hell of an EGO.

iris lily

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2023, 08:31:50 AM »
I don't think OP is trolling at all. I think this is his earnest, honest assessment of the material posted, and I suspect he believes that we would all benefit from being more open minded about what he's presenting. As I suspect he would assume our aversion to Peterson to be fueled by leftist ideology and not an academically rigorous position.

At least, that's what I would expect based on OP's previous engagement on the topic of climate change.

This is pretty funny. I posted on a previous climate change thread debunking some of the unscientific comments that were posted related to extreme weather events. One poster even posted a scientific paper trying to prove what I stated was incorrect and that paper was basically in 100% agreement with what I posted.

If you can't tell I was trolling or having a laugh or using sarcasm it says a lot more about you than about me. I find Peterson continually exasperating and hilarious. I think he is a fool and I don't think stories about the bat and the bird or whatever he makes up has anything at all to do with climate change. I thought it was hilarious and some people would find it funny as well.

Continue on though. You keep doing you.


I certainly wouldn't describe JP as a fool. Extremely arrogant and as not as smart as many believe, but not a fool. He does have one hell of an EGO.


Not only the ego, but this guy talks faster than any podcaster I know, pushing more words in per second and using the least amount of breaths per phrase. I do not think he beats Russell
Brand in this regard, but the two are neck and neck.

I listened to that Joe Rogan episode, yes the entire thing, and thought “ well now that is an interesting theory, Jordan.”

I think his plan to save the world by convening a tribunal this year of those with sincerely held beliefs is…another interesting effort.

I listen to J Peterson and do not discount everything he says. I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 08:35:21 AM by iris lily »

SunnyDays

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2023, 11:37:30 AM »
I just assume that anyone speaking in favour of Peterson is being sarcastic.  I can't believe anyone would seriously find him credible about, well, pretty much anything.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2023, 12:32:24 PM »
I hope this wasn't a PWI

* posting while intoxicated

GuitarStv

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2023, 01:16:56 PM »
I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.

Don't be.

In his own eyes, Peterson is always being persecuted for thinking.  This way he never has to be responsible for the situations his own actions have created.

Peterson is a clinical psychologist - which means that he's a member of a professional organization, and he uses this membership to help give credibility to his ideas.  (Pretty much every time he's introduced or written about people talk about him being a clinical psychologist.)  As with membership to most professional organizations, to get this title Peterson had to swear to uphold standards.  These standards are available here if you're interested in reading them through - https://cpa.ca/docs/File/Ethics/CPA_Code_2017_4thEd.pdf.

The 'thought-speak retraining' you're mentioning is effectively a one on one remedial course to address his unprofessional behaviour on social media.  To take a few examples of what he is being disciplined for:
- Peterson called another CPA member that he had a disagreement with "a prik [sic]" on twitter
- Peterson publicly shamed a plus sized fashion model
- Peterson suggested that a someone concerned about climate change kill himself
This is the vital thinking that Peterson is being persecuted for.  This same vital thinking also pretty clearly violates the ethical standard Peterson swore to uphold, specifically:
Quote
General respect
    I.1 Demonstrate appropriate respect for the knowledge, insight, experience,
areas of expertise, and cultural perspectives and values of others,
including those that are different from their own, limited only by those
that seriously contravene the ethical principles of this Code.
    I.2 Not engage publicly (e.g., in public statements, presentations, research
reports, with primary clients or other contacts) in degrading comments
about others, including demeaning jokes based on such characteristics
as culture, nationality, ethnicity, colour, race, religion, sex, gender, or
sexual orientation.
    I.3 Strive to use language that conveys respect for the dignity of persons
and peoples as much as possible in all spoken, written, electronic, or
printed communication
    I.4 Abstain from all forms of harassment, including sexual harassment

If Peterson wants to continue using his Canada Psychology Association membership to give credibility to his ideas and to practice psychology (something he hasn't done since 2017 anyway due in great part to his crippling addiction problems), he needs to attend a media retraining course because of these violations of the standard of conduct he swore to uphold.  It is completely voluntary though - he certainly doesn't need to keep a professional membership with a group that he no longer follows or believes in.  He doesn't practice as a psychologist any more.  All that he would be giving up is the credibility he gets from presenting himself as a clinical psychologist.

So in summary - Peterson broke the rules he agreed to follow and is now is being asked to take a remedial course to explain to him (again) exactly what rules he agreed to follow.  The Canada Psychology Association is actually being pretty relaxed about Peterson's flagrant violation of their standards of professional conduct.   Only in Peterson's own bizarre alternate reality is that the work of thought police attempting to censor his brilliance.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2023, 02:02:40 PM »
^yup

People don't realize how incredibly strict the rules are for us clinicians when it comes to conduct on social media.

I did a CE course on the legalities of just how limited my freedom on social media is thanks to my license and even I was taken aback by just how much power my licensing body has over what I can post, and I was pretty mindful even before that.

It's why I don't mention my specific occupation here. It's only partially because I don't want strangers knowing, but it's more that I want to be able to talk freely here so I'm covering my ass in terms of liability.

You lose A LOT of freedom when you take on the responsibility of a health professional license.

No, we AREN'T as free as other people. There are sometimes major sacrifices to be made in terms of freedoms in order to stay in good standing with a regulatory college.

The limits can get pretty extreme if you live in a small community, or have an extremely specific skill set and an insular patient population. I plan to live in a remote region in the next few years and I'll have limitations on virtually every interaction I have in my own town because of the license I'll have.

He can complain all he wants that his freedoms are being limited, but he knew full well that that's what membership entails. We have entire courses in specific ethics of our profession that explain the limits that will now be imposed on us.

He's perfectly welcome to not be a member of clinical organizations that limit these freedoms. It's voluntary to be a member if you aren't actually treating patients.

But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 02:06:21 PM by Metalcat »

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2023, 02:36:30 PM »
I certainly wouldn't describe JP as a fool. Extremely arrogant and as not as smart as many believe, but not a fool. He does have one hell of an EGO.

I think he is a fool. On the subject of climate change he has an oratory argument that doesn't have any facts about climate change.

On a debate on climate change he does the following:-

1. He states that children are getting into the cause because they want to do something constructive with their lives but because it's such a one sided position it's an ideology.
2. We are trying to force everyone into this apocalyptic terror. There has also always been an apocalyptic terror.
3. The weather has been extremely different to today.
4. He goes into the debate on alternative issues that we have today and how we judge what is the worse issue today. He loves Bjorn Lomborg.
5. The way to sustain the planet is to help the poor people. Poor people tend to not care about the environment. The best way to do this is provide cheap energy to the poor people.
6. He then goes onto talking again about the religious view that development is bad and that we need less people on the planet. This is really bad because it means people are trying to kill off people.

His whole spiel is trying to make climate change into some form of culture war where the do gooders are going to kill off people and they are therefore evil but him and Bjorn are the rational ones trying to make the world a better place.

Why not start off with a big picture that temperatures have been rising for a couple of 100 years and we've seen temperature increasing by 1.5 degrees. If temperatures rise say 3-5 degrees we could have issues like people having to migrate from the equator because it's too hot to live. There is actually a lot of really sane debates to be had about if/when temperatures will rise that much and what we can do about it but he doesn't do that. He just avoids the issue completely and makes it into a culture war.

I can't consider that anything other than stupid.

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2023, 02:40:34 PM »
I listen to J Peterson and do not discount everything he says. I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.

On this topic it's good to look at an opposite perspective. I bet the vast majority of psychologists couldn't get away with anything like JP does simply because he is JP.

The guy has a history of dramatizing events that happen to him and making them into something they aren't.

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2023, 02:43:11 PM »
So in summary - Peterson broke the rules he agreed to follow and is now is being asked to take a remedial course to explain to him (again) exactly what rules he agreed to follow.  The Canada Psychology Association is actually being pretty relaxed about Peterson's flagrant violation of their standards of professional conduct.   Only in Peterson's own bizarre alternate reality is that the work of thought police attempting to censor his brilliance.

It's ridiculous. It's very similar to when he stated he was being persecuted to call people by the right pronouns or something. It was all his bizarre schizophrenic dark fantasy.

chevy1956

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2023, 02:47:47 PM »
But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.

My take is that he is looking for a fight and even better to have himself act with righteous anger and hopefully get people riled up with righteous anger and then he gets more famous and therefore richer.

I'll add another point. He has created this character just like in fake wrestling and sometimes people do in MMA. Part of that character is that he is a psychologist. It's not about actually being a psychologist. It's a fake character designed to sell his stuff.

I don't think he is even interested in climate change. I think he just knows it is a very sensitive topic to a lot of people and it's a topic that divides people on left and right and he wants to get those strong reactions.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2023, 02:59:05 PM »
But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.

My take is that he is looking for a fight and even better to have himself act with righteous anger and hopefully get people riled up with righteous anger and then he gets more famous and therefore richer.

I'll add another point. He has created this character just like in fake wrestling and sometimes people do in MMA. Part of that character is that he is a psychologist. It's not about actually being a psychologist. It's a fake character designed to sell his stuff.

I don't think he is even interested in climate change. I think he just knows it is a very sensitive topic to a lot of people and it's a topic that divides people on left and right and he wants to get those strong reactions.

Really good point.

BicycleB

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2023, 03:15:33 PM »
^yup

People don't realize how incredibly strict the rules are for us clinicians when it comes to conduct on social media.

I did a CE course on the legalities of just how limited my freedom on social media is thanks to my license and even I was taken aback by just how much power my licensing body has over what I can post, and I was pretty mindful even before that.

It's why I don't mention my specific occupation here. It's only partially because I don't want strangers knowing, but it's more that I want to be able to talk freely here so I'm covering my ass in terms of liability.

You lose A LOT of freedom when you take on the responsibility of a health professional license.

No, we AREN'T as free as other people. There are sometimes major sacrifices to be made in terms of freedoms in order to stay in good standing with a regulatory college.

The limits can get pretty extreme if you live in a small community, or have an extremely specific skill set and an insular patient population. I plan to live in a remote region in the next few years and I'll have limitations on virtually every interaction I have in my own town because of the license I'll have.

He can complain all he wants that his freedoms are being limited, but he knew full well that that's what membership entails. We have entire courses in specific ethics of our profession that explain the limits that will now be imposed on us.

He's perfectly welcome to not be a member of clinical organizations that limit these freedoms. It's voluntary to be a member if you aren't actually treating patients.

But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.

Did not know this! This and GuitarStv's post that Metalcat referred to were both very informative / thought provoking.

Kris

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2023, 03:29:18 PM »
But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.

My take is that he is looking for a fight and even better to have himself act with righteous anger and hopefully get people riled up with righteous anger and then he gets more famous and therefore richer.

I'll add another point. He has created this character just like in fake wrestling and sometimes people do in MMA. Part of that character is that he is a psychologist. It's not about actually being a psychologist. It's a fake character designed to sell his stuff.

I don't think he is even interested in climate change. I think he just knows it is a very sensitive topic to a lot of people and it's a topic that divides people on left and right and he wants to get those strong reactions.

Agree. It’s a lot easier to monetize this denialism than it would be to say, yes, climate change is an issue that we need to deal with it. Contrarianism is big money.

iris lily

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2023, 06:48:48 PM »
I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.

Don't be.

In his own eyes, Peterson is always being persecuted for thinking.  This way he never has to be responsible for the situations his own actions have created.

Peterson is a clinical psychologist - which means that he's a member of a professional organization, and he uses this membership to help give credibility to his ideas.  (Pretty much every time he's introduced or written about people talk about him being a clinical psychologist.)  As with membership to most professional organizations, to get this title Peterson had to swear to uphold standards.  These standards are available here if you're interested in reading them through - https://cpa.ca/docs/File/Ethics/CPA_Code_2017_4thEd.pdf.

The 'thought-speak retraining' you're mentioning is effectively a one on one remedial course to address his unprofessional behaviour on social media.  To take a few examples of what he is being disciplined for:
- Peterson called another CPA member that he had a disagreement with "a prik [sic]" on twitter
- Peterson publicly shamed a plus sized fashion model
- Peterson suggested that a someone concerned about climate change kill himself
This is the vital thinking that Peterson is being persecuted for.  This same vital thinking also pretty clearly violates the ethical standard Peterson swore to uphold, specifically:
Quote
General respect
    I.1 Demonstrate appropriate respect for the knowledge, insight, experience,
areas of expertise, and cultural perspectives and values of others,
including those that are different from their own, limited only by those
that seriously contravene the ethical principles of this Code.
    I.2 Not engage publicly (e.g., in public statements, presentations, research
reports, with primary clients or other contacts) in degrading comments
about others, including demeaning jokes based on such characteristics
as culture, nationality, ethnicity, colour, race, religion, sex, gender, or
sexual orientation.
    I.3 Strive to use language that conveys respect for the dignity of persons
and peoples as much as possible in all spoken, written, electronic, or
printed communication
    I.4 Abstain from all forms of harassment, including sexual harassment

If Peterson wants to continue using his Canada Psychology Association membership to give credibility to his ideas and to practice psychology (something he hasn't done since 2017 anyway due in great part to his crippling addiction problems), he needs to attend a media retraining course because of these violations of the standard of conduct he swore to uphold.  It is completely voluntary though - he certainly doesn't need to keep a professional membership with a group that he no longer follows or believes in.  He doesn't practice as a psychologist any more.  All that he would be giving up is the credibility he gets from presenting himself as a clinical psychologist.

So in summary - Peterson broke the rules he agreed to follow and is now is being asked to take a remedial course to explain to him (again) exactly what rules he agreed to follow.  The Canada Psychology Association is actually being pretty relaxed about Peterson's flagrant violation of their standards of professional conduct.   Only in Peterson's own bizarre alternate reality is that the work of thought police attempting to censor his brilliance.

That all seems reasonable and thank you for that explanation. I just wonder if those rules are being applied equally. I will bet they are not. Given the huge body of …words… that Jordan Peterson puts out, I’m not surprised if there are a few things out of his mouth that are rude and in violation.
Congratulations to those who picked through it all to find those violations! He claims one charge leveled against him was submitted as an entire Joe Rogan podcast. That is not specific and seems attuned to his attitude and overall ideas.

He never comes off as a nice person anyway, regardless of what he is saying.

In the end, I’m glad that a professional organization is riding herd on their own since it seldom happens.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 07:08:26 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2023, 07:12:02 PM »
But he's not going to get special dispensation to have more freedoms than the rest of us just because he's famous.

My take is that he is looking for a fight and even better to have himself act with righteous anger and hopefully get people riled up with righteous anger and then he gets more famous and therefore richer.

I'll add another point. He has created this character just like in fake wrestling and sometimes people do in MMA. Part of that character is that he is a psychologist. It's not about actually being a psychologist. It's a fake character designed to sell his stuff.

I don't think he is even interested in climate change. I think he just knows it is a very sensitive topic to a lot of people and it's a topic that divides people on left and right and he wants to get those strong reactions.

It is true that his business model is Jordan as provocateur and ginning up controversy is good for business.

 But it is also true, my thought anyway, that the compelled speech law or regulation or whatever it was having to do with pronouns  seems overreaching by the Canadian (provincial?) government.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2023, 07:34:55 PM »
I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.

Don't be.

In his own eyes, Peterson is always being persecuted for thinking.  This way he never has to be responsible for the situations his own actions have created.

Peterson is a clinical psychologist - which means that he's a member of a professional organization, and he uses this membership to help give credibility to his ideas.  (Pretty much every time he's introduced or written about people talk about him being a clinical psychologist.)  As with membership to most professional organizations, to get this title Peterson had to swear to uphold standards.  These standards are available here if you're interested in reading them through - https://cpa.ca/docs/File/Ethics/CPA_Code_2017_4thEd.pdf.

The 'thought-speak retraining' you're mentioning is effectively a one on one remedial course to address his unprofessional behaviour on social media.  To take a few examples of what he is being disciplined for:
- Peterson called another CPA member that he had a disagreement with "a prik [sic]" on twitter
- Peterson publicly shamed a plus sized fashion model
- Peterson suggested that a someone concerned about climate change kill himself
This is the vital thinking that Peterson is being persecuted for.  This same vital thinking also pretty clearly violates the ethical standard Peterson swore to uphold, specifically:
Quote
General respect
    I.1 Demonstrate appropriate respect for the knowledge, insight, experience,
areas of expertise, and cultural perspectives and values of others,
including those that are different from their own, limited only by those
that seriously contravene the ethical principles of this Code.
    I.2 Not engage publicly (e.g., in public statements, presentations, research
reports, with primary clients or other contacts) in degrading comments
about others, including demeaning jokes based on such characteristics
as culture, nationality, ethnicity, colour, race, religion, sex, gender, or
sexual orientation.
    I.3 Strive to use language that conveys respect for the dignity of persons
and peoples as much as possible in all spoken, written, electronic, or
printed communication
    I.4 Abstain from all forms of harassment, including sexual harassment

If Peterson wants to continue using his Canada Psychology Association membership to give credibility to his ideas and to practice psychology (something he hasn't done since 2017 anyway due in great part to his crippling addiction problems), he needs to attend a media retraining course because of these violations of the standard of conduct he swore to uphold.  It is completely voluntary though - he certainly doesn't need to keep a professional membership with a group that he no longer follows or believes in.  He doesn't practice as a psychologist any more.  All that he would be giving up is the credibility he gets from presenting himself as a clinical psychologist.

So in summary - Peterson broke the rules he agreed to follow and is now is being asked to take a remedial course to explain to him (again) exactly what rules he agreed to follow.  The Canada Psychology Association is actually being pretty relaxed about Peterson's flagrant violation of their standards of professional conduct.   Only in Peterson's own bizarre alternate reality is that the work of thought police attempting to censor his brilliance.

That all seems reasonable and thank you for that explanation. I just wonder if those rules are being applied equally. I will bet they are not. Given the huge body of …words… that Jordan Peterson puts out, I’m not surprised if there are a few things out of his mouth that are rude and in violation.
Congratulations to those who picked through it all to find those violations! He claims one charge leveled against him was submitted as an entire Joe Rogan podcast. That is not specific and seems attuned to his attitude and overall ideas.

He never comes off as a nice person anyway, regardless of what he is saying.

In the end, I’m glad that a professional organization is riding herd on their own since it seldom happens.

Our governing bodies are not proactive, they tend to only respond to complaints. The more public and vocal the professional, the more likely people are to complain about them.

If there's a complaint, they investigate and take very prescribed action. Their action tends to be extremely conservative, such as the tepid action they are taking against JP. He's not being sanctioned or fined, he's being assigned remedial training.

That is almost always the first step when a medical professional contravenes their ethical obligations. They are assigned remedial training and then monitored. That's it. It's extremely fair and reasonable. When they refuse to do the remedial training is when things get more serious, but even then, they are given several opportunities to resolve the problem that they caused in the first place.

Overall, it's a very slow, reasonable, incremental process. JP has literally nothing to complain about.

FTR though, just as a technicality, it's not the Canadian Psychological Association that's disciplining him. They are an association, not a governing body. It's the provincial psychology licensing body in Ontario as licenses are provincial.

The Ontario College of Psychologists are not to be trifled with. They have exceptionally strict rules. They apply them very reasonably, but they are known for being *extremely* particular and never making exceptions.

iris lily

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2023, 08:17:29 PM »
I *am* alarmed by the very recent effort of his Psychology Association to censure him and require re-training fir his thought-speak. The charges are not coming from patients, he has not treated clients in recent years.

Don't be.

In his own eyes, Peterson is always being persecuted for thinking.  This way he never has to be responsible for the situations his own actions have created.

Peterson is a clinical psychologist - which means that he's a member of a professional organization, and he uses this membership to help give credibility to his ideas.  (Pretty much every time he's introduced or written about people talk about him being a clinical psychologist.)  As with membership to most professional organizations, to get this title Peterson had to swear to uphold standards.  These standards are available here if you're interested in reading them through - https://cpa.ca/docs/File/Ethics/CPA_Code_2017_4thEd.pdf.

The 'thought-speak retraining' you're mentioning is effectively a one on one remedial course to address his unprofessional behaviour on social media.  To take a few examples of what he is being disciplined for:
- Peterson called another CPA member that he had a disagreement with "a prik [sic]" on twitter
- Peterson publicly shamed a plus sized fashion model
- Peterson suggested that a someone concerned about climate change kill himself
This is the vital thinking that Peterson is being persecuted for.  This same vital thinking also pretty clearly violates the ethical standard Peterson swore to uphold, specifically:
Quote
General respect
    I.1 Demonstrate appropriate respect for the knowledge, insight, experience,
areas of expertise, and cultural perspectives and values of others,
including those that are different from their own, limited only by those
that seriously contravene the ethical principles of this Code.
    I.2 Not engage publicly (e.g., in public statements, presentations, research
reports, with primary clients or other contacts) in degrading comments
about others, including demeaning jokes based on such characteristics
as culture, nationality, ethnicity, colour, race, religion, sex, gender, or
sexual orientation.
    I.3 Strive to use language that conveys respect for the dignity of persons
and peoples as much as possible in all spoken, written, electronic, or
printed communication
    I.4 Abstain from all forms of harassment, including sexual harassment

If Peterson wants to continue using his Canada Psychology Association membership to give credibility to his ideas and to practice psychology (something he hasn't done since 2017 anyway due in great part to his crippling addiction problems), he needs to attend a media retraining course because of these violations of the standard of conduct he swore to uphold.  It is completely voluntary though - he certainly doesn't need to keep a professional membership with a group that he no longer follows or believes in.  He doesn't practice as a psychologist any more.  All that he would be giving up is the credibility he gets from presenting himself as a clinical psychologist.

So in summary - Peterson broke the rules he agreed to follow and is now is being asked to take a remedial course to explain to him (again) exactly what rules he agreed to follow.  The Canada Psychology Association is actually being pretty relaxed about Peterson's flagrant violation of their standards of professional conduct.   Only in Peterson's own bizarre alternate reality is that the work of thought police attempting to censor his brilliance.

That all seems reasonable and thank you for that explanation. I just wonder if those rules are being applied equally. I will bet they are not. Given the huge body of …words… that Jordan Peterson puts out, I’m not surprised if there are a few things out of his mouth that are rude and in violation.
Congratulations to those who picked through it all to find those violations! He claims one charge leveled against him was submitted as an entire Joe Rogan podcast. That is not specific and seems attuned to his attitude and overall ideas.

He never comes off as a nice person anyway, regardless of what he is saying.

In the end, I’m glad that a professional organization is riding herd on their own since it seldom happens.

Our governing bodies are not proactive, they tend to only respond to complaints. The more public and vocal the professional, the more likely people are to complain about them.

If there's a complaint, they investigate and take very prescribed action. Their action tends to be extremely conservative, such as the tepid action they are taking against JP. He's not being sanctioned or fined, he's being assigned remedial training.

That is almost always the first step when a medical professional contravenes their ethical obligations. They are assigned remedial training and then monitored. That's it. It's extremely fair and reasonable. When they refuse to do the remedial training is when things get more serious, but even then, they are given several opportunities to resolve the problem that they caused in the first place.

Overall, it's a very slow, reasonable, incremental process. JP has literally nothing to complain about.

FTR though, just as a technicality, it's not the Canadian Psychological Association that's disciplining him. They are an association, not a governing body. It's the provincial psychology licensing body in Ontario as licenses are provincial.

The Ontario College of Psychologists are not to be trifled with. They have exceptionally strict rules. They apply them very reasonably, but they are known for being *extremely* particular and never making exceptions.
Are the complaints against him available to the public?

 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 08:27:15 PM by iris lily »

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2023, 08:33:19 PM »
Are the complaints against himpart of a publicly accessible document?

Not likely, it's not even usually publicly available that these remedial courses are being mandated. He's the one who made it public, normally professionals go through this quietly and privately. They make mistakes, get remedial training, and then get restored to good standing.

The professionals are given the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they just weren't properly aware of the rules, not that they flagrantly broke them. Remedial courses are not a punishment, they're just a refresher to make sure the professional is fully aware of the rules that they broke.

If they break the rules again after remedial coursework, then they get in bigger shit because the college then knows that they are intentionally violating rules.

Up to that point, it's all very civilized and no one is treated like they're a criminal or anything. He's just claiming that the complaints are political. Meanwhile as GuitarStv pointed out, a lot of his personal attacks of people would be unacceptable no matter what his political opinions are.

He's the one making a big deal of this, which is seriously suspect. He could have just quietly done the stupid course and had no issues, but he's the one railing against the very well established rules of a college that he chooses to be part of.

Seriously, as a future colleague of his in the same province, and as a current licensed professional of another college in his province, his interpretation of what's happening to him is downright embarrassing and tantamount to an entirely unnecessary hissy fit.

It's pretty transparently an attempt to play the victim persecuted by the woke folk. And he's just assuming, correctly, that most people have no idea how the rules for his profession actually work.

iris lily

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2023, 09:37:22 PM »
 I read some of the exact quotes that brought Peterson under fire, read them in the Toronto sun. They seem mild to me, much ado about nothing. This is considering how very much he talks, writes, pontificates, lectures. I mean his output is prodigious.

 But if I think of it in a different context, if he was for instance on the payroll of Employer A, that employer would be perfectly within its rights to clamp down on their employee’s speech while on the clock.

I guess the reason why this strikes me so strongly is that I think of Peterson as an independent contractor. He’s acting for himself. He’s representing himself.

So I guess I will take your word for it that the Ontario College of Psychologists has a tightly written code of behavior that guides members’ actions, just like paid representation of an employer would be held to speech standards.

I have not observed that American psychological organizations have similar speech clamping standards. Or if they do, the chitchat I see on Reddit from people who represent themselves as psychologists seem… Not to be ethical. I guess they can hide behind anonymity there and Peterson cannot and does not.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 09:42:55 PM by iris lily »

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2023, 09:55:44 PM »
I read some of the exact quotes that brought Peterson under fire, read them in the Toronto sun. They seem mild to me, much ado about nothing. This is considering how very much he talks, writes, pontificates, lectures. I mean his output is prodigious.

 But if I think of it in a different context, if he was for instance on the payroll of Employer A, that employer would be perfectly within its rights to clamp down on their employee’s speech while on the clock.

I guess the reason why this strikes me so strongly is that I think of Peterson as an independent contractor. He’s acting for himself. He’s representing himself.

So I guess I will take your word for it that the Ontario College of Psychologists has a tightly written code of behavior that guides members’ actions, just like paid representation of an employer would be held to speech standards.

I have not observed that American psychological organizations have similar speech clamping standards. Or if they do, the chitchat I see on Reddit from people who represent themselves as psychologists seem… Not to be ethical. I guess they can hide behind anonymity there and Peterson cannot and does not.

That's the thing, licensed health professionals DON'T represent themselves, they represent the entire profession.

If they say things publicly that defy the standards of that profession, they are putting the public at risk. If a person reads a psychologist publicly fat shaming someone, that could prevent someone with body dysmorphia from trusting psychologists.

It's not a minor infraction, it's actually a very serious breach of ethic conduct.

ETA: let me give this example. My duty to protect the public image of my profession is so strict that I'm not even allowed to tell a patient that their last medical professional was an obvious fuck up because that would make the profession look bad, and it's not my place to assess a peer.

I have to be extremely careful how I phrase any criticism of a colleagues work and I'm obliged to give them the benefit of the doubt in front of the patient. That's how intensely what I say and how I represent the profession to the public is controlled.

Again, a lot of people violate this ethical standard, but if they were reported, they would have to quietly do a remedial course reminding them of what they agreed to in order to be licensed.

Professionals do breach this conduct all the time. As I said, the college isn't proactive, it responds to complaints. And unless a psychologist on Reddit uses their name, no one can make a complaint about them.

That doesn't mean they aren't violating ethical rules, it just means they're getting away with it.

The ethical standards for mental health professionals are extremely stringent. That doesn't mean everyone adheres to them, but it does mean that the college isn't over reaching when a complaint is made and they act well within their purview to remediate the situation whe someone has flagrantly violating the standards of practice.

Basically, you lose the right to be a public asshole as a therapist. You lose A LOT of personal freedoms. That's the job. He knows that. He's FULLY informed of the limitations placed on him by membership with that college.

None of these consequences should be a surprise to him, nor should they be a big deal. He's making it a big deal for show.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 10:41:25 PM by Metalcat »

scottish

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2023, 07:03:20 AM »
This is interesting, I didn't realize the disciplinary approach was out of the public eye.    The medical community seems to keep disciplinary actions very quiet.

If a P.Eng screws up, his disciplinary notice is made public, even if the consequence is just (re)training.     It also seems that we also have less focus on the expression of personal opinions and other aspects of personal behaviour than the medical community.

Having had a less than stellar specialist for many years, I have to wonder if this quiet approach is actually in the public interest.    It's treating the public in a very paternalistic manner.

Another example of this is that back in the beginning of the pandemic, didn't the medical community in the US tell the public that masks were ineffective?     And not because masks were ineffective, but because there was a mask shortage and they didn't want to interfere with their availability for health care staff.      For example:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-cdc-says-americans-dont-have-to-wear-facemasks-because-of-coronavirus-2020-01-30

They definitely had a point about availability.   But should they have been lying to the public?   

TomTX

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2023, 07:35:50 AM »
Yeah, the OP definitely satisfies Poe's Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
It was going to be either Poe's Law or Rule 34...

There are a lot of people who find Peterson legitimately compelling and who interpret him as exceptionally intellectually rigorous in his positions.
While overall Peterson is a nutjob with many bizarre and laughably weak positions (based on some snippets I've seen/read about) I found his original free speech position pretty compelling at the time. From what I recall

1) Canada mandated using specific labels when talking to/about trans (non-binary?) people.
2) Peterson said he used the preferred pronouns, etc of individual trans (non-binary?) people he encountered.
3) Peterson thought the mandate was a violation of free speech rights and therefore wrong.

I can see the point. Government mandated speech is not free speech.

If someone has a compelling counter-argument or some circumstance I'm missing*, please do share. I haven't delved deep into the topic - I just watched a few of his videos years ago. Since then it's been indirect information. I didn't know about his idiotic take on climate change until this thread.

*Something like "If you are paid by the Government you must use this speech during working hours" would be a compelling counter-argument to me.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 07:53:58 AM by TomTX »

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2023, 08:14:55 AM »
Yeah, the OP definitely satisfies Poe's Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
It was going to be either Poe's Law or Rule 34...

There are a lot of people who find Peterson legitimately compelling and who interpret him as exceptionally intellectually rigorous in his positions.
While overall Peterson is a nutjob with many bizarre and laughably weak positions (based on some snippets I've seen/read about) I found his original free speech position pretty compelling at the time. From what I recall

1) Canada mandated using specific labels when talking to/about trans (non-binary?) people.
2) Peterson said he used the preferred pronouns, etc of individual trans (non-binary?) people he encountered.
3) Peterson thought the mandate was a violation of free speech rights and therefore wrong.

I can see the point. Government mandated speech is not free speech.

If someone has a compelling counter-argument or some circumstance I'm missing*, please do share. I haven't delved deep into the topic - I just watched a few of his videos years ago. Since then it's been indirect information. I didn't know about his idiotic take on climate change until this thread.

*Something like "If you are paid by the Government you must use this speech during working hours" would be a compelling counter-argument to me.

This is a separate issue, and I'm not getting into it.

Also, Canada doesn't have free speech like the US, we have very clear laws against hate speech. Most developed countries do. US is an exception on that front.

I'm not going to get into the political weeds as to whether someone's pronouns should be protected under hate speech as that's not what he's being reeducated for.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2023, 08:22:31 AM »
This is interesting, I didn't realize the disciplinary approach was out of the public eye.    The medical community seems to keep disciplinary actions very quiet.

If a P.Eng screws up, his disciplinary notice is made public, even if the consequence is just (re)training.     It also seems that we also have less focus on the expression of personal opinions and other aspects of personal behaviour than the medical community.

Having had a less than stellar specialist for many years, I have to wonder if this quiet approach is actually in the public interest.    It's treating the public in a very paternalistic manner.

Another example of this is that back in the beginning of the pandemic, didn't the medical community in the US tell the public that masks were ineffective?     And not because masks were ineffective, but because there was a mask shortage and they didn't want to interfere with their availability for health care staff.      For example:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-cdc-says-americans-dont-have-to-wear-facemasks-because-of-coronavirus-2020-01-30

They definitely had a point about availability.   But should they have been lying to the public?   

To be fair, as someone trained in universal precautions and masking, a lot of us medical professionals had no idea masking would be as effective as it was. We were more trained on contact transmission, handwashing, etc. I was as surprised as everyone to find out that hand washing turned out to be largely irrelevant and masking was highly effective.

I was one of those medical professionals who advocated against public masking because in my mind, that had people putting their hands on their faces constantly. For contact transmission, having people put on and take off masks improperly is a TERRIBLE idea.

This particular virus turned out to be more of a droplet spreader than a contact spreader. This is why suddenly our "universal precautions" that we had used for decades weren't good enough and we had to upgrade our PPE dramatically. The vast majority of us just weren't trained for this.

So as much as it looks like we medical professionals were part of some conspiracy to keep masks for ourselves, it's more nuanced than that. It's that most of us thought that the masks would be wasted on the general public who were likely putting themselves at contact transmission risk by even using them.

As it became clear that masks were super effective and contact transmission just wasn't as big a deal as we were trained to worry about, the sentiment changed.

Things are rarely as malicious as they seem, and usually the product of ignorance. I, along with so many of my colleagues, was ignorant about how incredibly effective amateur masking would be.

Live and learn.

ETA as for the privacy in dealing with the medical world. Yes, this is a valid point to be debated with valid arguments on both sides. But essentially, the system runs on a benefit of the doubt assumption and that all doctors want to do good and that often they just need a bit of support to get back on track.

Not everything is quiet, much of the disciplinary process is published and members often have to write published apology letters addressed to all of their colleagues for failing to follow the rules.

But my point is that the colleges don't jump to crucifying people. They give them chances to prove themselves first.

The medical colleges are very paternalistic. They're fundamentally structured that way. There are pros and cons to this for sure. But that's an enormous topic that I don't want to delve further into.

My points all along have not been to defend the rules of Peterson's college, but to point out that he is only being subjected to the rules that he was very aware of agreeing to in the first place.

My whole point is that nothing he is experiencing is exceptional to his case. It's all actually pretty pedestrian, normal college behaviour and doesn't look like a witch hunt by any stretch of the imagination to anyone who belongs to one of these colleges.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 08:40:59 AM by Metalcat »

scottish

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2023, 09:45:11 AM »
This is interesting, I didn't realize the disciplinary approach was out of the public eye.    The medical community seems to keep disciplinary actions very quiet.

If a P.Eng screws up, his disciplinary notice is made public, even if the consequence is just (re)training.     It also seems that we also have less focus on the expression of personal opinions and other aspects of personal behaviour than the medical community.

Having had a less than stellar specialist for many years, I have to wonder if this quiet approach is actually in the public interest.    It's treating the public in a very paternalistic manner.

Another example of this is that back in the beginning of the pandemic, didn't the medical community in the US tell the public that masks were ineffective?     And not because masks were ineffective, but because there was a mask shortage and they didn't want to interfere with their availability for health care staff.      For example:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-cdc-says-americans-dont-have-to-wear-facemasks-because-of-coronavirus-2020-01-30

They definitely had a point about availability.   But should they have been lying to the public?   

To be fair, as someone trained in universal precautions and masking, a lot of us medical professionals had no idea masking would be as effective as it was. We were more trained on contact transmission, handwashing, etc. I was as surprised as everyone to find out that hand washing turned out to be largely irrelevant and masking was highly effective.

I was one of those medical professionals who advocated against public masking because in my mind, that had people putting their hands on their faces constantly. For contact transmission, having people put on and take off masks improperly is a TERRIBLE idea.

This particular virus turned out to be more of a droplet spreader than a contact spreader. This is why suddenly our "universal precautions" that we had used for decades weren't good enough and we had to upgrade our PPE dramatically. The vast majority of us just weren't trained for this.

So as much as it looks like we medical professionals were part of some conspiracy to keep masks for ourselves, it's more nuanced than that. It's that most of us thought that the masks would be wasted on the general public who were likely putting themselves at contact transmission risk by even using them.

As it became clear that masks were super effective and contact transmission just wasn't as big a deal as we were trained to worry about, the sentiment changed.

Things are rarely as malicious as they seem, and usually the product of ignorance. I, along with so many of my colleagues, was ignorant about how incredibly effective amateur masking would be.

Live and learn.

ETA as for the privacy in dealing with the medical world. Yes, this is a valid point to be debated with valid arguments on both sides. But essentially, the system runs on a benefit of the doubt assumption and that all doctors want to do good and that often they just need a bit of support to get back on track.

Not everything is quiet, much of the disciplinary process is published and members often have to write published apology letters addressed to all of their colleagues for failing to follow the rules.

But my point is that the colleges don't jump to crucifying people. They give them chances to prove themselves first.

The medical colleges are very paternalistic. They're fundamentally structured that way. There are pros and cons to this for sure. But that's an enormous topic that I don't want to delve further into.

My points all along have not been to defend the rules of Peterson's college, but to point out that he is only being subjected to the rules that he was very aware of agreeing to in the first place.

My whole point is that nothing he is experiencing is exceptional to his case. It's all actually pretty pedestrian, normal college behaviour and doesn't look like a witch hunt by any stretch of the imagination to anyone who belongs to one of these colleges.

Ok, sure.   As a complete layman, it seemed clear that COVID was going to spread by droplets.   RSV, influenza and the common cold all spread by droplets, after all.    (And they also spread by contact...)  Why would we expect a new respiratory disease wouldn't spread by droplets?    So I was surprised by the whole thing ...

It occurs to me that health sciences rely much more heavily on statistics than - for example - civil engineering.   In health sciences research a p-value of 0.10 is considered just fine.     If you were to contrive a similar experiment in civil engineering, the same p-value would have to be pretty much 0 for a useful result.

So assessing fault in civil engineering can be relatively clear cut.   The retaining wall failed.   The design didn't include a, b, and c.   The P.Eng who signed off on the design did it incorrectly and he's culpable.

But in health care,  treatments may have only a 40-50% success rate.   Much more expertise (and even paternalism) would be appropriate in assessing fault.    Just look at what happens when we let the legal system try and assess medical judgements.    We get a civil suit that concludes vaccines cause autism e.g. lymerix.

Metalcat

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Re: Peterson on Climate Change
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2023, 11:59:14 AM »
This is interesting, I didn't realize the disciplinary approach was out of the public eye.    The medical community seems to keep disciplinary actions very quiet.

If a P.Eng screws up, his disciplinary notice is made public, even if the consequence is just (re)training.     It also seems that we also have less focus on the expression of personal opinions and other aspects of personal behaviour than the medical community.

Having had a less than stellar specialist for many years, I have to wonder if this quiet approach is actually in the public interest.    It's treating the public in a very paternalistic manner.

Another example of this is that back in the beginning of the pandemic, didn't the medical community in the US tell the public that masks were ineffective?     And not because masks were ineffective, but because there was a mask shortage and they didn't want to interfere with their availability for health care staff.      For example:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-cdc-says-americans-dont-have-to-wear-facemasks-because-of-coronavirus-2020-01-30

They definitely had a point about availability.   But should they have been lying to the public?   

To be fair, as someone trained in universal precautions and masking, a lot of us medical professionals had no idea masking would be as effective as it was. We were more trained on contact transmission, handwashing, etc. I was as surprised as everyone to find out that hand washing turned out to be largely irrelevant and masking was highly effective.

I was one of those medical professionals who advocated against public masking because in my mind, that had people putting their hands on their faces constantly. For contact transmission, having people put on and take off masks improperly is a TERRIBLE idea.

This particular virus turned out to be more of a droplet spreader than a contact spreader. This is why suddenly our "universal precautions" that we had used for decades weren't good enough and we had to upgrade our PPE dramatically. The vast majority of us just weren't trained for this.

So as much as it looks like we medical professionals were part of some conspiracy to keep masks for ourselves, it's more nuanced than that. It's that most of us thought that the masks would be wasted on the general public who were likely putting themselves at contact transmission risk by even using them.

As it became clear that masks were super effective and contact transmission just wasn't as big a deal as we were trained to worry about, the sentiment changed.

Things are rarely as malicious as they seem, and usually the product of ignorance. I, along with so many of my colleagues, was ignorant about how incredibly effective amateur masking would be.

Live and learn.

ETA as for the privacy in dealing with the medical world. Yes, this is a valid point to be debated with valid arguments on both sides. But essentially, the system runs on a benefit of the doubt assumption and that all doctors want to do good and that often they just need a bit of support to get back on track.

Not everything is quiet, much of the disciplinary process is published and members often have to write published apology letters addressed to all of their colleagues for failing to follow the rules.

But my point is that the colleges don't jump to crucifying people. They give them chances to prove themselves first.

The medical colleges are very paternalistic. They're fundamentally structured that way. There are pros and cons to this for sure. But that's an enormous topic that I don't want to delve further into.

My points all along have not been to defend the rules of Peterson's college, but to point out that he is only being subjected to the rules that he was very aware of agreeing to in the first place.

My whole point is that nothing he is experiencing is exceptional to his case. It's all actually pretty pedestrian, normal college behaviour and doesn't look like a witch hunt by any stretch of the imagination to anyone who belongs to one of these colleges.

Ok, sure.   As a complete layman, it seemed clear that COVID was going to spread by droplets.   RSV, influenza and the common cold all spread by droplets, after all.    (And they also spread by contact...)  Why would we expect a new respiratory disease wouldn't spread by droplets?    So I was surprised by the whole thing ...

It occurs to me that health sciences rely much more heavily on statistics than - for example - civil engineering.   In health sciences research a p-value of 0.10 is considered just fine.     If you were to contrive a similar experiment in civil engineering, the same p-value would have to be pretty much 0 for a useful result.

So assessing fault in civil engineering can be relatively clear cut.   The retaining wall failed.   The design didn't include a, b, and c.   The P.Eng who signed off on the design did it incorrectly and he's culpable.

But in health care,  treatments may have only a 40-50% success rate.   Much more expertise (and even paternalism) would be appropriate in assessing fault.    Just look at what happens when we let the legal system try and assess medical judgements.    We get a civil suit that concludes vaccines cause autism e.g. lymerix.

Yeah, again, I'm not making any argument against any of that. I don't even know how this got here. I'm fully aware that doctors work on generally a lot of very bad info. I wouldn't claim otherwise. I'm just saying I understand why so many of us were like "uh...having a bunch of folks touch their faces all day seems like a bad idea"

I should not have used the term "droplet" because even contact spread is spread by droplet. But there have been a lot of reports talking about how hand washing was so heavily emphasized at the beginning and had surprisingly little impact compared to masking.
We learned a lot during this pandemic.

Wait....are people taking my posts explaining the medical world as defenses of how things are done in general?

Because I have not and never will. I have HUGE issues with medicine, which I've posted about often.