Author Topic: I don't want to retire  (Read 4988 times)

jim555

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2019, 10:52:50 AM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.
Strange value system.  If your not a "success" then you have no "value". 

SnackDog

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2019, 11:07:56 AM »
I always figured there was a hierarchy of pilot jobs with a position for everyone from A380 captain down through the superjumbos, jumbos, wide bodies, single aisles, regional turbo props, puddle jumpers, single props, etc. right on down to crop duster.  If you can't get the one you want, you just lower your sights a bit, get your foot in the door and try and work back up the ladder.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2019, 11:52:21 AM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support. 

Telecaster

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2019, 12:29:39 PM »
I am all about FIRE. It has been my primary focus for most of my life. In my case, however, it was out of need than as a chosen philosophy. I never got to experience the rush of conspicuous consumption. My career never blossomed into the golden handcuffs that many of you have experienced. I spent decades pursuing an underperforming professional dream that left me broke and unsatisfied. I developed my FIRE mentality out of a need to survive not as an escape from the rat race.

"Follow your dreams" is a terrible career path in the vast majority of cases.   You hear about it occasionally, usually from professional athletes.  Those of course, are the tiny, tiny, minority of athletes.   In the majority of cases, it works out the way it did for you.   Something sounds glamorous like being a musician or a pilot.   So tons of people want those jobs, which means the pay is terrible and sometimes even having a career in those fields is hugely dependent on forces outside your control.  The world does not care about your dreams.  Does. Not. Care.   

I had a friend who had the same pilot dream as you.  After he finished flight school he couldn't find a job as a pilot so he got a job as a baggage handler.   Then he took advantage of the travel benefits to get a side hustle ferrying airplanes.   He got tons and tons of flight hours on a wide variety of aircraft, and he was able to apply for and get pilot's jobs, when the smoke cleared he still couldn't find a pilot's job that paid remotely well enough to support his family.  Same as you. 

Here is good career advice:  Develop an in-demand skill set.   That way you will at least have some control over your career.   

Here is some lifestyle advice:  Become FIRE'd then you have total control over your career.   It might not be the career of your dreams but at least you'll be in control of it.   That's way better than going to job fairs with nothing to show for it, isn't it? 

And some stoic philosophy:  What happens to you isn't as important as your reaction to it.   Your dream career didn't work out, so you spend your time being depressed.   How does that help you?   

koshtra

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2019, 01:05:18 PM »
Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.

I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.

You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.

Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.

I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.

spartana

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2019, 01:13:54 PM »
Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.

I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.

You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.

Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.

I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.
big plus 1 to all of this.

OP everyone here understands your frustration at not being able to pursue your dream job. We get it. Most here (and most on this planet) have had career and/or personal life goals that they strived for and dreamed about that got derailled due to any variety of reasons. That's life and sometimes it sucks.

I had an accident on a job I loved which left me with a disability so that I could no longer do that job. I threw a world class tantrum worthy of a 2 year old but then choose not to wallow in that loss but to move forward toward something else in a somewhat similar field. Not better, not worse, just different and good. Sure I had to retrain and get a second related degree. And sure I kept trying to get a job in my prefer profession (which had a cut off age 37 for new hires...but a bit longer for veterans like me) even though I knew it wouldn't happen. And sure I had a few "woe is me" moments. But, like most people who have to give up a career or personal dream (which is probably most people), I moved on to a happy fulfilled life looking at what I had now, and also toward the future and letting go of the past.

I think this is where you need to concentrate your energy - acceptance. Keep trying and striving to reach your career goals if you feel you need to, but also don't let it rule you with angst. You've had an amazing life with lots of successes so focus on that.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 09:26:05 AM by spartana »

FIREby35

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2019, 02:09:47 PM »
Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.

I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.

You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.

Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.

I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.

I agree with Spartana - PLUS ONE, to this advice.

matchewed

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2019, 03:45:57 PM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.

Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2019, 11:29:14 AM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.

Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.

In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.

Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.

Cassie

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2019, 11:47:58 AM »
There is a great organization that flies rescue dogs to their new homes. Itís called Pilots for Paws.  When CA shelters had way too many chiís they flew 500 to NYC where they all had homes before the planes landed.

Telecaster

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2019, 12:11:09 PM »

I  agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.

I cannot emphasis enough how much you are missing the point.   If you are bothered and sad everyday you are living your life wrong.   

Quote
In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.

You are missing the point here too.  In order to achieve FIRE, one must use money efficiently.   Most people waste money on consumer junk that doesn't make them more happy, or even don't think about the ways they are wasting money--like say leasing cars, or buying expensive managed mutual funds.   

One you are FI (I realize there is a lot of disagreement about the term "retire early" so I won't use that term here) and don't have to rely on an outside employer to support your lifestyle, then you land right in the middle of the stream of opportunity.   At FI, you are free to pursue your dreams however you see fit and experience whatever you like.   
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 12:21:59 PM by Telecaster »

jim555

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2019, 12:13:46 PM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.

Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.

In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.

Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.
Sounds like you are doing FIRE wrong and under budgeting your life.  FIRE opens opportunities because now you have time to pursue dreams. 

Hikester

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2019, 12:59:12 PM »
Skyhigh you remind me of a conversation I had with a coworker while I was just starting college during summer break. He said we should all retire when we are young to do all the fun activities we wish and then work when we are older. At the time it seemed like genius to me but this sounds a lot like your life experience and you are not fulfilled. Makes me agree with some of the commenters that maybe at midlife (I am making assumptions about your age), we all tend to ponder and question our life as part of a developmental stage. And no matter what that life has been like we will reach the stage where we realize you cannot realize all your dreams, so might as well pick a few wisely. You can still fulfill your corporate dream if you wish. I am sure employers will love someone that is not plotting how to get out of their present employment situation as so many are, and actually enjoys corporate living.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2019, 04:13:46 PM »


My dreams were unavailable to me because my industry was in recession. Now that it has recovered I am considered to be too old. I am thankful to have achieved FIRE and have reached an income level that is comfortable however it seems to have come at the expense of my dream.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2019, 04:17:52 PM »

I do not think it is wise for the young to abandon their careers in lieu of the pursuit of fun. Opportunity does not wait.

BicycleB

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2019, 04:20:09 PM »
You're alive, though, so... you never know. At least you can try. And if you fail, try something else.

Good luck in all your endeavors.

PS. I heard a story that most people don't achieve their Plan A - or B, or C; most people are on Plan F or so. Best wishes on making the most out of the time you have left.

https://www.goalcast.com/2018/06/26/8-successful-people-found-success-later-life/
https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/14-inspiring-people-who-found-crazy-success-later-in-life.html
https://ideas.ted.com/what-can-we-learn-from-people-who-succeed-later-in-life/
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 04:23:32 PM by BicycleB »

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2019, 04:23:21 PM »
Oh, man, you're in deep trouble: you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

Don't do this to yourself. Really, man, just don't do this to yourself.

I'm going to repeat it because you're stubborn cuss: don't do this to yourself.

You've done a good job of getting out of a dead-ended career dream and setting yourself and your family up. You didn't win the pony. That's too bad. But you tried: that's good. Now you're living in the past with might-have-beens and regrets. This is not the path to any kind of happiness, FIRE or not.

Here's what will make you happy: spending time enjoying your family, rather than viewing them as millstones. Finding projects to do, on whatever scale of whatever sort, that make you learn new skills, and that will be valuable to you and other people. Thinking of your life in terms of service rather than in terms of glory. There is always a way to serve. Always. Always. Always. There is always a new skill to acquire. There is always something which, when done, will make the world a better place. The scale doesn't matter, but serving does.

I'm sorry your career dream didn't work out, man, but there's more things in life than being a pilot. Get your head out of the past. There's a gorgeous world full of interesting things and people out there. The last half of your life is not going to look like you expected it to. That's actually a good thing, not a bad thing -- but only if you let it be.

Thank you. I appreciate your words and wisdom. I spent many decades taking classes, volunteering, travel, and have been available for my kids every second of their lives. It has all been a blessing however I wanted to see my professional dreams come true. It is important too. I am too young to retire and too old to start over. My opportunity has passed me by and its a bummer.

I have a lot of friends who have retired early and they get bored.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 04:28:11 PM by Skyhigh »

jim555

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2019, 05:47:52 PM »
Maybe invest in therapy.

matchewed

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2019, 05:53:53 PM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.

Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.

In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.

Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.

However you don't seem to agree wholeheartedly. You undermine that statement right away by dwelling in that past and in regret.

FIRE != sacrifice. What is so important that FIRE removes you from? I would argue rather than opportunity being narrowed that it in fact increases with FIRE as you have time and resources to pursue more options. Minimalism does not mean that at all and I think you have an unusual take on it. It does not mean an absence of new experiences; those two things are entirely unrelated.

And you instantly undermine your own points with your last paragraph.

I think there is a serious disconnect here between what you seem to think FIRE is and what others do. You talk about sacrifice and avoidance of life in order to not have to work again and I think that you are wrong and wrong about the people that are here.

Threshkin

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2019, 05:59:31 PM »
If you don't want to retire.....don't.

The RE is FIRE is totally optional.  The FI part is the key (IMO).  It gives you more leverage and options.

Of course FI is completely optional also, the majority of people in the world have no real desire to be FI.

Sailor Sam

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2019, 07:20:10 PM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2019, 07:51:41 PM »
You went for one of the hardest to obtain jobs. Legacy carrier airline pilot is right up there with Professional Athlete in selectivity and difficulty. You tried, you didn't make it. Lots and lots of other people tried and didn't make it. There is no shame in this.

Aviation is a very difficult career indeed. In college we were told about the "pilot shortage" and were promised opportunity that did not materialize for us. Had I known what a folly it was I would have become an accountant instead. I never wanted to be poor for any reason. These days they are giving away jobs like candy. As a result, I want a do-over and have been diligently trying to get an airline job to no effect. I have an impressive resume though it seems they have moved on to successive generations. I attend job fairs and see the same sad silver-haired pilots who go home unwanted. It is a crushing defeat.

All my training, education, and experience was as a pilot. After getting laid off from my last airline with a family to support there were no other industries that had a use for me. I could not get an interview at Costco, on the city road crew, or at the grocery store. I had to work for myself and started building decks and mowing lawns. It then turned into building myself rental homes. Eventually I opened a property management company, general contractor business, and am presently in school to be a financial planner. I have staff now who help with the daily operations and I am free to pursure my professional dreams but they dont want us.

I have many pilot friends who are now financially independent entrepreneurs. Failed airline pilots are all over the place working as contractors, entreprenuers, authors, and a host of other self-created professions. Being useless to the outside world seems to be an important element in achineving FIRE. Without options one either suceeds or moves in with their parents. It is not fun for anyone and we all wish we could have achieved our flying dreams instead. (well one guy seems to like his real estate career)

Highlighting another incorrect assumption.

Another way to explain that statement is; if I could have gotten a job that would have supported my family I would have. My peers are similar. We had to figure out a means of self-support.

Same with most people. To echo what others have said I am not going to mourn the past. Living in regret is a waste of my time on this planet. Rather than feel useless because you didn't achieve your dreams feel useful because regardless of what life threw at you success in other forms followed.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is nothing we can do about the past. All we have is the present. It still bothers me every day and it makes me sad that I failed to reach my dream. It feels like a major life defeat. I am very thankful for all that I have achieved in real estate however in comparison I took the easy road.

In order to achieve FIRE one must; lower expectations, resist consumption, apply surplus resources to investments, then live off those investments. My ego has no need for a fancy home or a new car. I can live quite well in a 200 square foot space. I am very resourceful at employing meager resources towards investment. However, in my experience, the endeavor also removes one from much of what is important about life. To retreat in such a manner also means removing oneself from the stream of opportunity. Minimalism means sequestering oneself in order to avoid unexpected expense, opportunity, or relationships. It means an absence of new experiences.

Had I developed a consumption mindset then I would have been forced to remain at crummy jobs longer, to live in uncomfortable situations, and to endure crummy co-workers until my ship came in. As it was I always knew that I had an option and I think it held me back a bit.

However you don't seem to agree wholeheartedly. You undermine that statement right away by dwelling in that past and in regret.

FIRE != sacrifice. What is so important that FIRE removes you from? I would argue rather than opportunity being narrowed that it in fact increases with FIRE as you have time and resources to pursue more options. Minimalism does not mean that at all and I think you have an unusual take on it. It does not mean an absence of new experiences; those two things are entirely unrelated.

And you instantly undermine your own points with your last paragraph.

I think there is a serious disconnect here between what you seem to think FIRE is and what others do. You talk about sacrifice and avoidance of life in order to not have to work again and I think that you are wrong and wrong about the people that are here.

I am long past my minimalist phase. I only mentioned it because I remember it as being an extended period of near non-existence. It would have been more fun to have enjoyed my 20's gainfully employed and indulging in conspicuous consumption. I achieved FIRE long ago.

My point is that there is more to life than self-gratification. In FIRE circles you tend to meet others who are in a similar situation. I can spot them a mile away mostly because everyone else is at work. I met this guy recently who skis almost everyday and largely does what he wants. He is happy with his life but there is a melancholy to it as well. Self-indulgent pursuits are not all that satisfying after a while. I used to love fishing. I fished 90 days a year and even worked as a guide, but can't stand fishing anymore.

There must be a sense of satisfaction that comes from accomplishing something important, from being included in the world at large, from being challenged and reaching a professional goal. My wife and I have spent nearly every day with our kids, and there is a lot of them. They are on the mostly grown side of things these days so it is time to go back to work. She has a great career lined up but mine has left me behind. All I am saying is that it must be nice to have left a meaningful career behind and to be able to bask in the glow of career accomplishment before FIRE. I wish I could have accomplished my career dream.

My industry has recovered and I am ready to go back to work but they don't want me anymore. I don't want to retire. I don't want to volunteer, go hiking, read books, or stay at home anymore. I wish to join the workforce in a meaningful pursuit that I am excited about and remain there until my health fails. I'm done with being retired.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2019, 07:59:25 PM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2019, 09:31:29 PM »
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

You said you were laid off and then when your industry recovered, you were subject to age discrimination. Neither of those things are because of FIRE. Having money to allow FIRE just kept you from needing a shittier job.

matchewed

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2019, 06:04:23 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

Which is what exactly?

blinx7

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2019, 08:12:08 AM »
OP, have you read "Old Man and the Sea" by Hemmingway?  It's your situation basically, so maybe it would help to read it and realize this is a common human experience.

As for me?  I wanted to be an economist, then a diplomat.  Then I decided against diplomat but had switched majors away from econ and wanted to get out of college in four years.  I'm now a commercial real estate lawyer working for local gov't.  So I get you -- this is how the cookies crumble for most of us.  But to be honest, it also doesn't bother me -- dollars in exceed dollars out, fitness tracker says calories out are exceeding calories in, kids are growing up, we have a roof and food. 

If you want to fly planes, fly them.  If you want to work, work.  Maybe you'll get to have someone pay you to fly planes, or maybe you'll just have to work at one time and then fly planes for no pay.  You probably won't ever be a captain of a jumbo jet.  That's just how things go in this world.  There's cancer, famine, murder and rape too so it gets a lot worse than that.  I think your problems are primarily spiritual, and that to get over this you'll need to take it up with God (apologies to the secular folks). 

I think reading biographies may be helpful too.  Some people seem to have everything (movie stars, athletes) and then blow it all.  Others, like Victor Frankel and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (read their books -- may change your life) had literally everything stripped from them and were thrown in the cruelest prisons imagined, tortured and abused, and yet created astounding meaning from it.

Instead of traveling around the world, now I rarely leave my city and I don't have a PhD or any significant publications.  But I work hard at my job, and we put up a lot of interesting buildings from our nondescript little office (an old school, repurpsed) in the suburbs.  You can add value, in ways big and small, no matter who you are or what you do in this world.  You just need to open your eyes a little differently than you did before. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 08:16:32 AM by blinx7 »

Malkynn

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2019, 08:27:06 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

Um...none of that has to do with FIRE...like, at all.
FIRE does NOT often come at the price of anything precious at all. If it does, then there is likely a much smarter way to do it. FIRE is such a broad range of possibilities, it doesn't just mean putting your head down, ignoring your dreams, and saving as much as possible by spending as little as possible. That's just ONE path to FIRE. FIRE *could* mean taking a year or so off to train at something amazing, while spending on whatever really matters to you.

FIRE *only* means: retiring earlier than you would have if you had wasted your money on shit that doesn't really enrich your life.
It *DOES NOT* mean giving up the things that make life worth living for the sake of reaching a NW target as soon as humanly possible. If you choose that path, that's on you, but it's not fundamentally what the FIRE movement is about.

You had a series of events and circumstances happen and you made a series of lifestyle decisions that you now seem to regret. That sucks.

However, your story is not at all typical of the majority of FIRE stories that most people have, so I don't see your situation as a cautionary tale against FIRE in any way shape or form. Perhaps for you, in your particular circumstances, your FIRE goals encouraged you to make a series of trade-offs that you didn't ultimately end up happy with. Perhaps your focus on FIRE did distract you from focusing on life satisfaction, and that's unfortunate, but it definitely is not typical because extremely few people achieve FIRE by under accomplishing in their careers. It's actually the least likely FIRE path I've ever heard of.

What *IS* a common refrain in the FIRE community is a belief that achieving FIRE will lead to happiness, and many people seem to do so with a disregard for satisfaction and happiness along the way. FIRE will not provide happiness, it just won't. You need to know how to how to make trade offs that better your life if you want to be happy.

So, in a way, you are right, you are just focusing on the wrong factors. It's not FIRE that lead to you being unsatisfied and unhappy, but a focus on FIRE without a plan to establish a rich life that made you unhappy. That *IS* a valid warning for people pursuing FIRE, but it is not at all valid to generalize that FIRE is likely to make people less successful. Based on the actual stories of people here, it's actually the opposite for most Mustachians.

It sucks that you haven't been happy and satisfied with your life decisions. Hopefully you can find a way to let go of regret and find some awesome stuff to do with your life, because there is so much out there to accomplish even if you can't be the exact kind of pilot that you wanted to be.

Sailor Sam

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2019, 08:53:59 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights. 

I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige. 

Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2019, 09:23:00 AM »
I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

You said you were laid off and then when your industry recovered, you were subject to age discrimination. Neither of those things are because of FIRE. Having money to allow FIRE just kept you from needing a shittier job.

You are correct. I do not have to accept the crummy jobs. I have held plenty of awful piloting jobs. FIRE makes it so that one does not have to go through the hard times. Employers expect to see a similar path from its applicants. As a result, my resume does not reflect a struggling subservient employee anymore.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2019, 09:29:04 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights. 

I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige. 

Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.

I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore.  Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.

spartana

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2019, 09:33:30 AM »


My dreams were unavailable to me because my industry was in recession. Now that it has recovered I am considered to be too old. I am thankful to have achieved FIRE and have reached an income level that is comfortable however it seems to have come at the expense of my dream.
So whether you FIREd or not you still wouldn't have been able to pursue your career as a pilot because the industry was in recession. So why do you keep saying your dream failed because of attaining FI and RE? This is beginning to feel more like a troll post trashing on FI and RE as something negative for everyone rather than an attempt to discuss a failed career choice. I'm not trying to be insulting but maybe you could explain it better so I'd understand how FIRE messed up your career plans.

jim555

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2019, 09:47:23 AM »
For the sake of politeness I haven't said it but - troll post.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2019, 10:21:24 AM »
OP, have you read "Old Man and the Sea" by Hemmingway?  It's your situation basically, so maybe it would help to read it and realize this is a common human experience.

As for me?  I wanted to be an economist, then a diplomat.  Then I decided against diplomat but had switched majors away from econ and wanted to get out of college in four years.  I'm now a commercial real estate lawyer working for local gov't.  So I get you -- this is how the cookies crumble for most of us.  But to be honest, it also doesn't bother me -- dollars in exceed dollars out, fitness tracker says calories out are exceeding calories in, kids are growing up, we have a roof and food. 

If you want to fly planes, fly them.  If you want to work, work.  Maybe you'll get to have someone pay you to fly planes, or maybe you'll just have to work at one time and then fly planes for no pay.  You probably won't ever be a captain of a jumbo jet.  That's just how things go in this world.  There's cancer, famine, murder and rape too so it gets a lot worse than that.  I think your problems are primarily spiritual, and that to get over this you'll need to take it up with God (apologies to the secular folks). 

I think reading biographies may be helpful too.  Some people seem to have everything (movie stars, athletes) and then blow it all.  Others, like Victor Frankel and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (read their books -- may change your life) had literally everything stripped from them and were thrown in the cruelest prisons imagined, tortured and abused, and yet created astounding meaning from it.

Instead of traveling around the world, now I rarely leave my city and I don't have a PhD or any significant publications.  But I work hard at my job, and we put up a lot of interesting buildings from our nondescript little office (an old school, repurpsed) in the suburbs.  You can add value, in ways big and small, no matter who you are or what you do in this world.  You just need to open your eyes a little differently than you did before.

Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2019, 10:31:20 AM »


My dreams were unavailable to me because my industry was in recession. Now that it has recovered I am considered to be too old. I am thankful to have achieved FIRE and have reached an income level that is comfortable however it seems to have come at the expense of my dream.
So whether you FIREd or not you still wouldn't have been able to pursue your career as a pilot because the industry was in recession. So why do you keep saying your dream failed because of attaining FI and RE? This is beginning to feel more like a troll post trashing on FI and RE as something negative for everyone rather than an attempt to discuss a failed career choice. I'm not trying to be insulting but maybe you could explain it better so I'd understand how FIRE messed up your career plans.

FIRE made it so that I did not have to take the crummy jobs and remain at them for lack of other sources of income. FIRE provided an option to sit out the hard times and wait till the industry recovered. I used those years to spend time with family and to build a business awaiting an opportunity to return.  I assumed that my credentials would maintain their value and that legacy airlines are interested in seasoned pilots.

There is a drastic pilot shortage underway but not at the career level that is of interest to me.  The regional airlines are struggling to find willing applicants who will endure the crummy positions. I have also had my fill of that. Legacy airlines seem to want younger people who have demonstrated a willingness to place themselves into awful conditions for the career. I did that for a long time and am not willing to go through that again. When it was my turn the legacy airlines were not hiring.

FIRE makes it so that one does not have to do a lot of things. In my experience employers look for common career trajectories and can recognize when one is an outlier. They want indentured employees and not financially independent tourists. FIRE can kill professional opportunity.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 10:33:25 AM by Skyhigh »

Dicey

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2019, 10:35:32 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Holland

WELCOME TO HOLLAND
by
Emily Perl Kingsley.

c1987 by Emily Perl Kingsley. All rights reserved

I am often asked to describe the experience of raising a child with a disability - to try to help people who have not shared that unique experience to understand it, to imagine how it would feel. It's like this......

When you're going to have a baby, it's like planning a fabulous vacation trip - to Italy. You buy a bunch of guide books and make your wonderful plans. The Coliseum. The Michelangelo David. The gondolas in Venice. You may learn some handy phrases in Italian. It's all very exciting.

After months of eager anticipation, the day finally arrives. You pack your bags and off you go. Several hours later, the plane lands. The stewardess comes in and says, "Welcome to Holland."

"Holland?!?" you say. "What do you mean Holland?? I signed up for Italy! I'm supposed to be in Italy. All my life I've dreamed of going to Italy."

But there's been a change in the flight plan. They've landed in Holland and there you must stay.

The important thing is that they haven't taken you to a horrible, disgusting, filthy place, full of pestilence, famine and disease. It's just a different place.

So you must go out and buy new guide books. And you must learn a whole new language. And you will meet a whole new group of people you would never have met.

It's just a different place. It's slower-paced than Italy, less flashy than Italy. But after you've been there for a while and you catch your breath, you look around.... and you begin to notice that Holland has windmills....and Holland has tulips. Holland even has Rembrandts.

But everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy... and they're all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you will say "Yes, that's where I was supposed to go. That's what I had planned."

And the pain of that will never, ever, ever, ever go away... because the loss of that dream is a very very significant loss.

But... if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn't get to Italy, you may never be free to enjoy the very special, the very lovely things ... about Holland.

 

bacchi

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2019, 10:37:37 AM »
Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.

True. The working part sucked but the overall trajectory of my very accomplished career was awesome.

It was mostly about trying to avoid responsibility and real work while making as much money as possible.* I gave myself reviews every 6 months and often was at the top of my peers.



* So I disagree with Malkynn -- FIRE and FIRE alone can make someone happy. I do realize that I'm in a distinct minority, though.

ROF Expat

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2019, 10:46:54 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights. 

I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige. 

Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.

I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore.  Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.

Skyhigh,

Some of the things you've said in this discussion (like the comment above that "It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal") made me want to understand where you're coming from, so I looked at a few of your previous posts.  What struck me was one where you said "I never really liked flying" and that you just wanted a well paying career so you could be FI. 

You seem unhappy with the way your life has turned out, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with being FI, which you say you've achieved.  It seems that you don't have a passion for flying, but a strong desire for some sort of prestige or external validation. 

For what it is worth, Like SailorSam, I had a job that involved quite a bit of prestige and even some pomp and circumstance.  But you know what?  I loved doing my work when I was doing it at lower levels (for most of my career) and I would have loved my work even if I had stayed at those lower levels.  Reaching the higher levels and having some of the trappings of leadership were nice, but they were just icing on the cake.  Trust me, most people really don't care very much what you do for a living and they care even less about whatever it is that you used to do once you're retired.  The people who salute the Captain of the Ship stop doing it when he retires, because the importance largely resides in the position, not the individual (no offense, SailorSam).  A new Captain comes aboard and the old Captain puts aside his almost godlike authorities to become a regular person again.  I know from personal experience that people who define themselves by their rank and expect  the respect that accrues to their title to follow them into retirement tend to have a very hard adjustment back to the real world.  Sometimes they become "usetabes," as in I usetabe a ...  Now, you are in danger of defining yourself by a job title you didn't achieve an "I wantedtobea" if you will.  Please don't let that happen. 

It seems you've been beating yourself up for decades over the fact that you didn't achieve your goal in a career you didn't even like.  I mean you no offense, but you shouldn't be too surprised if you fail to make it to the top as a pilot if you have no passion for flying when so many of your colleagues/competitors obviously do. 

In some of your other posts, you press the idea that people should get practical jobs that pay a lot of money and ignore their passions because they won't pay the bills.  There's certainly an argument that people should be realistic and practical about the economic realities of following their passions.   On the other hand, if you're FI, maybe it is time you stop focusing on the aviation career you said you never liked anyway and find something you can, in fact, be passionate about. 

I know people who have reached the highest peaks of their professions, but the cost has been broken marriages and children who don't like them.  If they had a do over, I think a lot of them would do things differently.  I would encourage you to think about the things you have achieved and learn to take pleasure in them rather than focusing on what you haven't done.  But if you still want to do more, find something you can really care about and do it.  Maybe the airline industry is doing you a favor by not giving you a job you clearly have no passion for. 

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2019, 11:06:17 AM »
When one reaches FIRE your begin to associate with others who also have achieved FIRE. There are a lot of former airline pilots who are now entrepreneurs for similar reasons as I. Employers look at failed pilots as being uselessness playboys. As a pilot, it is very difficult to get a job in aviation but nearly impossible to find one outside of aviation. As a result, we tend to start our own businesses out of professional despair.

One of my friends developed a very successful appliance business at a very young age. He sold it in his mid-30's and now has nearly nothing to do. He bought a bunch of planes and flies them till he can't stand it anymore. He bought a vacation house on an island and a big fishing boat, but no one can go with him because they are all at work or school. He is a very young man still and is starring down the barrel of 40 years of uselessness.

It's not fun to see others achieving professional accolades while seated on the sidelines. I have another friend who comes from an airline family. He is in his early 40's and became a wealthy developer. In his youth, he tried to get his airline dreams underway but couldn't. His younger brother though came into a more willing airline market place. As a result, he is quickly climbing the ladder. My friend is many times better off financially due to his path however there is a cast of melancholy.

Epitaph: Here lies a wealthy appliance salesman.

There is a lot more to life than achieving FIRE. Our purpose extends beyond merely existing and the pursuit of self-indulgent endeavors. There is a longing to accomplish, a desire to serve in our highest capacity, and drive to achieve that is dimmed by FIRE. The results of achieving FIRE can be that of an uneventful life.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2019, 11:46:11 AM »
I won that pony you wanted. And the brass ring. And I got the bag of potato chips, too.

I'm currently second in command of a United States ship of the line. Shortly, unless things go surprisingly wrong, I'll be Commanding Officer of a different, bigger, ship. There are roughly 500 people who share this pinnacle with me, in a country of 325 million. I'm a rare beast. I'm an envied beast. I'm a respected beast, who gets saluted and deferred to. All this had made me a rich beast, too.

Want to know how I got to this rarified pinnacle? I love ships. I love studying them. I love looking at them. I love being on them. I love handling them. I love the moment I put my hand on my lady's rail and feel the thrum of her next move in the vibrations. Checking her, meeting her, finessing her, that moment when it all clicks is frankly a certain type of sex to me. Blue, electric, and thrilling.

I run ships for the US government because I was lucky. Right place, right time, right skillset. It's a luck you missed out on with planes, and I have deep compassion for that. But, I worked on ships long before the US gov't ever got ahold of me, and I'll work on ships long after. If I'd scrubbed out of OCS, I would have gone right back to non-government boats. No matter how small, or how humble. Because I love ships. They sing in my blood.

The point is, if you want to fly, then go fucking fly. Go let some sweet little beaver or piper make you weak in the knees and wet in the center. Otherwise, it sounds to me like what you're really grieving is some concept of might-have-been consumption and status.

Thanks, I have done all that. I own a plane. I have been around planes all my life. I hold every license a guy can get. I have an overarching goal that I can not reach. I have done everything else but my goal. The one thing that I have wanted to do since I was a kid. If I buy a bike and ride it around the block it does not make it the Tour De France. If I buy myself a canoe it does not make me a ship captain.

I get all the comments and gestures. My point is that FIRE often comes at the price of something else just as precious.

I admit I'm having trouble understanding your angst. If you love planes, why is your dream so narrow and specific? If you can't get a legacy airline, then try the regionals. If you can't fly the regionals, then fly for a charter. If you can't fly for a charter, fly as an instructor for a school. If you can't be an instructor, then fly volunteer flights. 

I mean, for all that I've succeeded aboard ships, there are levels of prestige above mine. The ships I command are small - hundreds of feet, not thousands. The Commander of an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine get accolades that will always outstrip my own level of recognition. But I don't care that there are pinnacles above mine, because I'm here for the ships, not the prestige. 

Ultimately, I agree with you; the FIRE movement has its flaws. Nor is it the one and only moral way to live your life. If FIRE isn't for you, that's okay. Keep striving, and see where you can get.

I have flown for the regionals, charter, corporate, and held many more positions as a pilot. I also own a plane. It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal. In addition, the lower rung career positions treat people like garbage. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that anymore.  Airline employers expect to see a miserable person who is an indentured servant to the industry. In my case, I have two strikes against me in that I am self-employed and over 50. Employers universally do not seem to like those aspects.

Skyhigh,

Some of the things you've said in this discussion (like the comment above that "It's not the airplanes that are the draw but rather reaching a professional goal") made me want to understand where you're coming from, so I looked at a few of your previous posts.  What struck me was one where you said "I never really liked flying" and that you just wanted a well paying career so you could be FI. 

You seem unhappy with the way your life has turned out, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with being FI, which you say you've achieved.  It seems that you don't have a passion for flying, but a strong desire for some sort of prestige or external validation. 

For what it is worth, Like SailorSam, I had a job that involved quite a bit of prestige and even some pomp and circumstance.  But you know what?  I loved doing my work when I was doing it at lower levels (for most of my career) and I would have loved my work even if I had stayed at those lower levels.  Reaching the higher levels and having some of the trappings of leadership were nice, but they were just icing on the cake.  Trust me, most people really don't care very much what you do for a living and they care even less about whatever it is that you used to do once you're retired.  The people who salute the Captain of the Ship stop doing it when he retires, because the importance largely resides in the position, not the individual (no offense, SailorSam).  A new Captain comes aboard and the old Captain puts aside his almost godlike authorities to become a regular person again.  I know from personal experience that people who define themselves by their rank and expect  the respect that accrues to their title to follow them into retirement tend to have a very hard adjustment back to the real world.  Sometimes they become "usetabes," as in I usetabe a ...  Now, you are in danger of defining yourself by a job title you didn't achieve an "I wantedtobea" if you will.  Please don't let that happen. 

It seems you've been beating yourself up for decades over the fact that you didn't achieve your goal in a career you didn't even like.  I mean you no offense, but you shouldn't be too surprised if you fail to make it to the top as a pilot if you have no passion for flying when so many of your colleagues/competitors obviously do. 

In some of your other posts, you press the idea that people should get practical jobs that pay a lot of money and ignore their passions because they won't pay the bills.  There's certainly an argument that people should be realistic and practical about the economic realities of following their passions.   On the other hand, if you're FI, maybe it is time you stop focusing on the aviation career you said you never liked anyway and find something you can, in fact, be passionate about. 

I know people who have reached the highest peaks of their professions, but the cost has been broken marriages and children who don't like them.  If they had a do over, I think a lot of them would do things differently.  I would encourage you to think about the things you have achieved and learn to take pleasure in them rather than focusing on what you haven't done.  But if you still want to do more, find something you can really care about and do it.  Maybe the airline industry is doing you a favor by not giving you a job you clearly have no passion for.

Flying for the airlines is largely a joyless occupation. Most would agree. The drive for safety leaches out most of the creative outlet opportunities true pilots longs for. It is the lifestyle that people enjoy. I do not subscribe to the idea that our professions need to be fun. Children don't dream of being accountants or orthodontists. Adults do it because of the lifestyle those professions provide. Those who truly love flying tend to become despondent flying for the airlines. I dreamed of achieving the lifestyle that comes from being a professional that is well treated and valued by their employer. I dreamed of achieving an upper-middle-class consumption lifestyle that comes from a worthy profession. I longed for a comfortable career that was in line with my natural abilities and came with some sense of professional accomplishment and status.

My gifts natural gifts lie in the flight deck. Flying is relatively easy for me. If I were able to have become an accountant I would have. As a business owner, I have been constantly pushed to do things I don't enjoy. My early years of financial deprivation were not fun at all. The plan was to have developed a meaningful career using the natural abilities I was born with. The profession would provide the financial surplus needed to accomplish FIRE. Due to an underperforming career, I had to suffer for a long time. It seemed that opportunity reversed my plan. The idea became one of achieving FIRE, then, returning to the airlines. It does not seem to be working out.

I have a diverse resume of aviation experiences that others envy. In my past, I flew in the Alaskan bush, as a wildfire pilot for the forest service, as a medevac pilot, for the airlines, and many other aviation positions. My path suggests that I am an aviation enthusiast. The whole time I was trying to reach my legacy airline goal. I could get plenty of flying jobs but not the one I wanted. I keep trying though. I have a few really good flying job now that are a lot of fun. It is the closest I will most likely get to my dreams. I wanted a financially meaningful career but got a grand adventure instead. The financial shortfall of "fun" jobs has caused me a lot of grief.




Dicey

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2019, 11:58:30 AM »
Then find ways to make your life more useful. Maybe emergency rescue or air ambulance piloting would fill the bill. Perhaps someone like the Make-A-wish Foundation could use your help.

Not defining yourself as a wannabe and/or pilot would also be enormously helpful. You can still be a successful guy with a passion for flying. In fact, that's what you are, but apparently you can't see it. Time to get some new glasses.

Think of all the people who aspired to be astronauts. Did you know John Denver wanted to be an astronaut? He got really, really close when NASA was recruiting civilians, but ultimately didn't make the cut. Does that make him a failure? BTW - no crash jokes please. His death was in large part due to faulty plane design.

I have held off with the troll assessment, but you really do seem to be your own worst enemy.

maizeman

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2019, 12:16:56 PM »
Flying for the airlines is largely a joyless occupation. Most would agree. The drive for safety leaches out most of the creative outlet opportunities true pilots longs for. It is the lifestyle that people enjoy. I do not subscribe to the idea that our professions need to be fun. Children don't dream of being accountants or orthodontists. Adults do it because of the lifestyle those professions provide. Those who truly love flying tend to become despondent flying for the airlines. I dreamed of achieving the lifestyle that comes from being a professional that is well treated and valued by their employer. I dreamed of achieving an upper-middle-class consumption lifestyle that comes from a worthy profession. I longed for a comfortable career that was in line with my natural abilities and came with some sense of professional accomplishment and status.

Okay, having read this thread, I think the two bits I've highlighted in bold above are really at the core of everything you're unhappy about, Skyhigh. I've struggled as well with being able to let go with the quest for status/recognition/tokens of career accomplishment, but one thing I've found that helps is to try to put what I want into quantitative rather than abstract terms. When I do that I realize that some what I think I want in the abstract doesn't sound as appealing in the specific, and some of the specifics I really do want I can try to achieve through other means.

So let's start. In specific terms, when you picture a comfortable upper middle class consumption lifestyle what are the things you'd like to be spending money on in such a lifestyle but which you don't or cannot spend money on today? I'm not going to judge or tell you you're a bad person for wanting to spend money. But really do try to think of 3-5. The more specific the better.

Similarly, a sense of professional accomplishment and status are actually a bit different. The first is something you really give to yourself, the second is something other people award you through how they treat you. So when it comes to feeling like you have "status" can you think of some specific actions or behaviors you wish people around you would make, that you think would happen if you did have status, but which aren't happening today? Again, the more specific you can be the better, and I promise I'm not going to attack you or tear you down, I just really find the exercise helps in the kind of struggle it sounds like you're going through.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:16:30 PM by maizeman »

Malkynn

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2019, 12:22:55 PM »
Old Man and the Sea is a very good book. I should read it again. Seems like you have already enjoyed quite an accomplished career. If I held similar accomplishments before FIRE I imagine that I would feel diffrent.

True. The working part sucked but the overall trajectory of my very accomplished career was awesome.

It was mostly about trying to avoid responsibility and real work while making as much money as possible.* I gave myself reviews every 6 months and often was at the top of my peers.



* So I disagree with Malkynn -- FIRE and FIRE alone can make someone happy. I do realize that I'm in a distinct minority, though.

FIRE, for some, is a necessary prerequisite for happiness, but it doesn't absolve the person from the work it takes to achieve that happiness.

FIRE does not make anyone happy in and of itself, but it can certainly help create an environment within which someone can achieve happiness if they know how to be happy. A lot of people don't.

BicycleB

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2019, 01:24:06 PM »
I wanted a financially meaningful career but got a grand adventure instead. The financial shortfall of "fun" jobs has caused me a lot of grief.

You're FI. Therefore you have enough money, or you are applying the term incorrectly. You want to still work. You still get work. You say you got a grand adventure. You say you got time with your kids. Objectively, there is nothing to complain about.

You really don't sound like your grief comes from anywhere but yourself.




Moustachienne

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2019, 01:28:47 PM »
Well this is a strange thread.  If I understand correctly Skyhigh is arguing that FIRE makes you lose your competitive edge because you only really go for your dreams if you're financially uncomfortable or even desperate.  If you're FIRE fat n' happy, terrible employers like the airline industry will pass you over in favour of younger lean n' hungry types.  And once you're FIRE you are completely incapable of regaining your edge because financial desperation is the only motivation that works.

Well... there is probably some truth to that last part for some people or so many wouldn't resist FI or once FI, still pile up lots of OMYs. And that's OK.  Know thyself.  If you need external drivers, the more unpleasant the better, to work towards goals, FI or FIRE might not be for you.  You will be out of step with this forum, though. :)

What I don't get though, is why Skyhigh is pining for the dream of a pilot job in the airline industry, when nothing he writes about it seems attractive.  Like many other posters have written, get new dreams!  And if you need to be uncomfortable to be motivated to pursue them, do some scary (to you) things.

Honestly, this post and followups reminds me a lot of the Mr. Bojangles threads where Mr. B. was also pining for some unrealistic past and unable to enjoy the present, let alone the future.  Couldn't be the same person?  Cousins? 


Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2019, 05:08:31 PM »

I have professional dreams and wish that I had a chance to have accomplished them. Now that opportunities are becoming abundant I want to go to work in a meaningful position but the industry has moved on to successive generations.

I achieved FIRE a long time ago now and am thankful for the lifestyle that it has afforded, but it was/is not much fun for me. Others in a similar position share a sort of glum that is hard to explain. When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world. It is a source of self-worth. FIRE is great but it is much better, in my opinion, to have retired from something meaningful. I wish I had enjoyed professional success before being put out to pasture is all. It was always my intention to return. Now that the realization is that I can't it is disappointing.

I did, however, achieve FIRE and help others to accomplish the same.

maizeman

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2019, 05:16:13 PM »
When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world.

If that is what is bothering you, why not mislead or reframe when you're asked that question?

For example: "I'm an entrepreneur. Right now I'm living off the proceeds from the sale of my last venture while deciding what to do next." (because you are) or "I fly planes." (because you do) or "I have a really nice gig where I can consult remotely" (because yes you could) or even just "I don't like to talk about work" (because it sure sounds like you don't)

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2019, 05:34:40 PM »
When someone in their mid-40's what you "do" and your response is "I ski". It is kind of embarrassing. We live in a career culture. Our career is an important interface with the world.

If that is what is bothering you, why not mislead or reframe when you're asked that question?

For example: "I'm an entrepreneur. Right now I'm living off the proceeds from the sale of my last venture while deciding what to do next." (because you are) or "I fly planes." (because you do) or "I have a really nice gig where I can consult remotely" (because yes you could) or even just "I don't like to talk about work" (because it sure sounds like you don't)

What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied.  My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.

I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE. 

maizeman

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2019, 05:43:02 PM »
What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied.  My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.

I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE.

In your previous posts it has sounded like you are bothered by what others think (or what you think they might think) about you. Consider whether the problem is how you yourself perceive your "accomplishment and status" or how you think others perceive your accomplishment and status. Because the solutions to those are different.

You never answered me on the specific things from an upper-middle-class lifestyle you'd like to be spending money on but can't/aren't.

Dicey

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2019, 06:22:16 PM »
Sounds like you won a Golden Globe but are disappointed that it wasn't an Oscar. I don't say this often, but a little therapy to unpack why you feel this way might help you shed this hair shirt you insist on wearing. Fact is, you WON! Sad that you aren't willing/able to allow yourself to enjoy it.

Skyhigh

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Re: I don't want to retire
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2019, 06:39:41 PM »
What's bothering me is that I did not succeed in my professional goals. I could dream up titles for myself but I am not interested in that. Instead of using my natural skills, education, training, and abilities to achieve FIRE I mowed lawns, build houses, managed real estate, and created a portfolio of rental properties. Very grueling low brow work. Years of self-sacrifice and humble living. Not fun. Stressful, dangerous, and high risk. We are much better off now but I do not feel very accomplished or professionally satisfied.  My callused hands are not the brand of intelligence or accomplishment. I did not exercise my higher functions to get here.

I came from a family of professionals who cherished their accomplishments. They were paid well to use their education to provide for a good living. I did things no one else wanted to do to make it to FIRE.

In your previous posts it has sounded like you are bothered by what others think (or what you think they might think) about you. Consider whether the problem is how you yourself perceive your "accomplishment and status" or how you think others perceive your accomplishment and status. Because the solutions to those are different.

You never answered me on the specific things from an upper-middle-class lifestyle you'd like to be spending money on but can't/aren't.

I am only concerned with what I think. It is my goal that I have failed and my standard that I did not achieve. I have provided for my family, and self, through manual labors and am thankful. I wish my support came through my career aspirations.

In answer to your question, it stinks to have to count every penny. It is not fun to be on a financial diet for so long. Debating with one's self over a $20 purchase is not comfortable. Professionals seem to buy whatever they want in an endless stream from Amazon. They drive new cars and take trips for fun. I travel to search for jobs. Many here are cutting back on consumption in order to create the surplus that is needed for investment. I don't have any specific examples of what I would like to have bought other than the peace that must come from not having to stress over ten dollars.

I don't have to worry about small change anymore and haven't for a long time but that mindset sticks with me still. People who are gainfully employed don't seem to worry much about where the next month's stipend is going to come from. I did not have a surplus to work with due to an underperforming career. My investment came from self-inflicted hardship and a meager existence during my 20's and 30's. I wish I had fun instead. I wish I had experienced what it must be like to have been gainfully employed instead.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 07:20:42 PM by Skyhigh »