Author Topic: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?  (Read 8761 times)

MrGreen

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How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« on: April 14, 2023, 10:06:53 PM »
With respect to finances, all my mental energy these days is spent trying to optimize our stash drawdown and thinking about various associated challenges over our lifetime. I'm not quite 40 yet so we have potentially quite a long runway. I'm a big fan of our stash having the most utility at any given time in our future lives, and we're young so there are certain restraints when it comes to retirement funds. We've reached the point where our stash is larger than it needs to be and, I suspect, if we stuck to generating no more income than we needed it would likely run away from us by the time we're truly old.

Our base spending is about 45k per year (we missed the 3% mortgage gravy train) and I could imagine total spending rising as high as 60k per year if we decide to spend multiple months per year in Airbnbs for the foreseeable future. I have done extensive modeling that shows we could generate a taxable income right at the 400% FPL threshold (so as to not go over the ACA subsidy cliff) and have spending be even higher than that without running out of money, and the model is conservative compared to the historical average return. I can't imagine spending that much money (92k+ for a family of 3) but it may be better long term to generate a higher income over a longer period of time and deposit those funds being transitioned out of retirement accounts via the Roth IRA conversion pipeline into a brokerage account.

Of course there's a tax cost to choosing a higher income and if we don't plan to spend it I question whether it's worth doing. There's certainly utility in having more of our dollars available to us, but it's hypothetical utility. If our annual spending needs are already covered by a much lower amount we're essentially covering against unforeseen situations, good or bad, that would require larger amounts. Is paying more in taxes worth having access to a larger pile of money in an emergency or to take advantage of a deal?

Does anyone else who is already RE and drawing down their stash consider how this will play out over their lifetime? Do you just make the minimum income moves you need to to cover annual expenses? This is a subject that I feel like I haven't seen discussed a whole lot. I was hoping maybe this was a thing that other people have different approaches to and it would be enlightening.

secondcor521

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2023, 10:42:50 PM »
I have tried in the past to build prediction models and spreadsheets similar to what you've done.  I failed for two different reasons.  First, in an effort to be 100% accurate, the models became very complex and I was not able to accurately build such complex models - I kept finding errors in calculations, dependencies, and so forth.  Second, my life and tax laws change too frequently, so the maintenance to the models was too burdensome for me to continue.

I have had more - and by more I mean some - success with some medium complexity models.  These models make simplifying assumptions which I sometimes notate in the models themselves, consider reasonable to make, are likely to be neutral rather than optimistic/pessimistic, and are ones that I estimate will not degrade the output of the model beyond the already uncertain bounds based on the natural fluidity in my life due to outside influences (tax laws, my kids, my Dad, the market).  I'm also able to maintain them easily enough.

...

It's hard to plan when you don't know how the future is going to turn out.  I've tried doing that in some cases, by assigning probabilities to various outcomes and weighting them to get some sort of expected value number or calculation.  But that uncertainty - will my kid need braces / go to college / go to Harvard / drop out of college? - is really so big that I've mostly decided to make those sorts of decisions on gut feel and SWAGs rather than formal models.

It's also hard to plan for late in life and after death sort of things.  I don't know what my kids' marginal brackets will be when I die.  So again I SWAG things quite a bit.

...

I am at around a 1% net WR.  One of the things that I "buy" with that low WR is that I have very wide margins and can SWAG or gut feel a lot of these things and feel comfortable that it'll work out OK.

At some point you actually do get to decide "Hey, I have *enough*" where *enough* means you can give yourself permission to stop striving and optimizing if it's no longer giving you pleasure or satisfaction or incremental improvements that make a difference to you.  I'm at and past that point.  You sound like you might be approaching it.

It is more of a psychological thing, because essentially your cheese gets moved:  the optimizing and spreadsheets kept on getting better and better with more tweaks and additions and analysis and ideas, and that was fun...until they don't, and it isn't.  When that happens, it's natural to keep doing the analysis and work for a bit, then get a little uneasy, then maybe a little sad.  Eventually, I think the healthy thing to do is to say "Good enough" and then go do something fun with your kid or start working on a different project like train for a half Ironman or paint your house or learn French.

...

I have considered the impact of the fact that my drawdown isn't really a drawdown.  My stash is about twice what I started with when I FIREd 7 years ago.  Projecting that forward 30 years, I realize I either need to spend more or prepare my kids more for what will hit them.  I'm trying to do both now, actually; more of the latter than the former.

...

I currently have sort of a just-in-time pull model for my finances.  I spend on my Fidelity VISA, which pulls from my checking, which I refill as needed from my taxable.  But I only pull from taxable what I need.  This creates a "how low can I go?" mentality, which is fun in a certain way.  But I'm also starting to not want to be the richest skeleton in the graveyard or have regrets about not doing something if I want to.

I have considered a model where I do some sort of push system:  Figure out what 2% of my FIRE stash is, divide by 12, and set up a taxable -> checking push of that amount.  And then set a rule for myself that I have to spend whatever is in my checking over time.  People who do this do have a tendency to spend it I think, and they're probably more balanced people than I currently am.

...

The engaging data infographic (https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early) with my personal data showed that I'm almost virtually certain not to run out of money, but have a ~20% chance of being dead at 70.  It did make me focus on my health more.

...

There is also the notion of "the wide plateau" - there are some things that you can optimize but the effects are really small.  Like if I take SS at 65 or 70, there may only be a 2% difference in expected value.  That's worth optimizing a little, but not worrying about too much because my SS is only something like 15% of my FIRE stash, of which I'm only taking 1% anyway.  So it really doesn't matter.

I guess the corollary there is to figure out which knobs really matter (financially or more broadly in life) and then focus your energy on those.  For me those knobs are my asset allocation, my withdrawal rate, my health, and my kids.  Second tier ones might be Roth conversions up to X% marginal rate and items related to a potential inheritance someday.  The rest of it is mostly broad plateau stuff, at least for me.

...

The book "Die With Zero" may give you some ideas also.

...

HTH.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2023, 10:51:01 PM by secondcor521 »

seattlecyclone

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2023, 10:57:14 PM »
I'm all in favor of only withdrawing what you want to spend. If you turn out to have a big surplus I've found charitable giving to be an easy and effective way of dealing with that.

Freedomin5

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2023, 03:11:35 AM »
+1 Charitable giving is a great way to get rid of excess money.

reeshau

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2023, 03:55:25 AM »
We hit FIRE by being laid off and getting a European severance just before Covid hit.  Lots of time to think.  The first years we were flush with cash, both from the severance and our home equity, so we focused on coming home to the US, and plotting what we wanted life to be, since we were essentially a clean sheet of paper.  "Income" was dividends in our taxable account, plus Roth rollovers to fill the lower tax brackets.

Last year the cash ran out; we had to buy our house for cash, as zero companies would do an asset-based mortgage in the summer of 2020.  Preparing to start withdrawing from taxable, I set out a simple model for the next decade, until I reach 59 1/2, to see if it would last.  In addition to annual spend, we also have some big splurges: a summer in Europe to give it a proper goodbye; a kitchen remodel, as we really like cooking together, but the current kitchen holds about a butt and a half; and another big summer trip touring the national parks.  It seemed to "come out even," using up the taxable in time for the IRA's to become available through normal age qualification.  Our Roth contribution and, after 5 years, rollover balances are the backup plan.  We continue to do Roth rollovers, now just to consume tax credits.

There have been surprises.  We had water in the house on return from our European splurge.  Thankfully it hadn't been long, but with some mold we are about $45k out of pocket for that.  That put the model in a tizzy, but won't really be an issue considering the Roth backup.  I invest in individual stocks, so the opportunity in regional banks will probably take care of things in a year or so anyway.

I have backed away from detailed modeling of the next phases of retirement.  The IRA's become available in 2031, and I have a small-but-not insignificant pension that starts at 65, in addition to the social security question.  I will probably start thinking on those in 2026, when they are 5 years out.  And of course, ACA will transition to Medicare in that time, so there's a whole new, fun learning to do there.  Or, if the taxable balances out after our misadventure, maybe I will take it on a bit early.

All this could be viewed as unnecessary.  We are fortunate enough to expect fairly significant inheritance on both sides of the family, so we doing trapeze stunts, but with a very strong safety net under us.  We know in rough terms what this could be, but certainly want to be in a position to root for old age for our parents, rather than fretting about when we might get a payday.  That's of course a crass way to put the situation, but there seem to be a lot of families that have their relationships distorted by the money transition between generations.  We would gladly trade suboptimization from a dynasty / multigenerational view for family peace, love, and happiness.

If we hit the mid-70's with goals accomplished and a ridiculous hoard, I expect we will give philanthropy a whirl.  No shortage of interesting needs in the world--and tax deduction be damned.  We have always like to be involved in our giving, and have some time and work effort to go along with the money.  We also give at different scales; doing big things, but we also find stories of giving nice people in difficult situations a leg up attractive:  things like $100 tips for the waitress, or paying it forward for a couple tanks of gas, or the next couple of drive-through orders.  We have moved around a fair deal, so I could also see us doing some large work with the various places we have been blessed to call home over the years, to get reacquainted.

In the end, we know we are not, and will not ever be, in true jeopardy.  But we also don't want to be complacent or wasteful with what we have worked so hard for.  I'm an idea person, so it's very easy for me to daydream different possibilities.  For the detailed planning, I think I have an amount of brain power I'm willing to commit to it in lieu of other things, and I manage the detail level of planning to that, rather than by some definite need.

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2023, 04:44:51 AM »
First - I think it's important to recognize that this isn't a problem. The way this post reads it seems almost like you're trying to 'solve' or optimize the 'problem' of having too much money.

This is not a problem. This was the solution to your original problem of not wanting to work your whole life. What you do with the money now is completely up to you.

What I'm taking away from this post and the replies is that I shouldn't work too hard/ too long, and wind up with too much money. I think I would just feel like I wasted too much of my youth working, imo.

Maybe the answer is that more early retirees should just try coast fire, or retiring on 5% withdrawal rates and waiting a few years then decide if they want to go back to work for more money, or something along those lines.

It seems like an awful lot of people retire with a 2-4% withdrawal rate then seem surprised when they wind up with way too much money later on in life.

Isn't this exactly what the models tell us is most likely to occur if we retire with a 2-4% withdrawal rate?

Ron Scott

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2023, 05:46:01 AM »
40 is an interesting age. You’re old enough to feel comfortable with your priorities but too young to know if they’ll change. Your stash is not too large; your worldview is too restricted.

Case in point—Why is your head in a place consumed with lament about missing out on social safety net programs? This is what I’d expect from a 75-year-old whose friends are getting their screens replaced through a state welfare program but who missed the cutoff by a few grand and has  to pay out of pocket. Get out of this mindset man.

Money can’t buy you love, but it can give you options. Use your mental energy thinking about expanding rather than restricting those options.




Linea_Norway

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2023, 07:05:11 AM »
We are not in the position of having too much money, rather just enoygh. But DH inherited a few $100K and now pays a lot of wealth tax, something we in Norway do. We consider to buy a more expensive house than originally planned to reduce the wealth tax, as a first home only counts for 30% or so wealth value. And a more expensive house might be nicer to live in as well. That depends on a lit of factors.

In your case, I wouldn't work more than you need to. And having too much stash is not a problem. You either spend it when you feel for it (not because you have to), or you donate it to charity, or your kid(s) will inherit it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2023, 07:07:31 AM by Linea_Norway »

GilesMM

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2023, 08:28:16 AM »
We don't have any heirs so plan on spending what we can and not leaving a vast chunk behind.  I do favor Roth conversions where possible.  It hasn't been possible for us yet but hoping to get 10 years in before SS.


As for how much to "spend" remember you can choose to spend more on things other than yourself, e.g. impactful local charity donations, church, political campaigns, etc.  Also, as you age you may see yourself bumping up "comfort" spending almost out of necessity, e.g. business class seats for long haul flights, full service hotels, comfortable and reliable vehicles, highly qualified home service people rather than DIY, etc.   


One way to get your head around, for example, charitable spending is to have a separate bucket for it. My dad gave all his annual RMDs to a local charity he knew very well. I know others who are gifting their annual SS since they don't need it.  Gifting, if enough, can turn into personal perks, like primo seats if you are donating to your local opera house, symphony, etc.


Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2023, 08:51:00 AM »
You don't have to choose an asset allocation that maximizes return.  Since you have 'won the game', capital preservation should become increasing important.  Increase your allocation to bonds, 2year treasuries, preferreds, tax exempt munis, get a SPIA, and hold some good old fashioned CASH.  Cash gets a bad rap here but it is basically a call option on the entire market that never expires. 

You will probably die "too rich" for your own tastes at current asset allocation.  How about die 'just right' but further decrease the still non-zero chance of portfolio failure?

jim555

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2023, 02:04:14 PM »
First world problems.  I just bought an Android phone, doing my part. (The Android 7 is getting old in the tooth, Android 14 is the current version).

FireLane

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2023, 02:45:59 PM »
I FIREd in 2021 planning on a 3% WR. In reality, I haven't touched my stash yet, because my wife is still working part-time and intends to do so for a couple more years at least. So, it's likely that I'm going to be embarrassingly rich later in life.

That said, I'm not concerned about having "too much" money. That's a good problem to have.

My life is already as rich and full as I want it to be. I could force myself to spend more, but it would be silly and wasteful and wouldn't make me any happier, so I'm content to let the stash grow. If I need expensive medical care later in life, I'll be glad I have it. If not, then my son stands to get a nice inheritance.

If you have more money than you know what to do with and want to get rid of some of it, establishing a donor-advised fund is a good option. Or you could set up a generous college fund for any children you have, or nieces or nephews.

hooplady

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2023, 02:56:32 PM »
The age at which RMD's are required seems to be the same age at which one can make qualified charitable distributions directly out of the accounts. Hopefully those remain pegged, so if I find myself with too much I can start making QCD's.

Dunno if I'm going to have an excess or not since no amount of modeling is going to predict some type of medical event that makes all of my planning moot.

secondcor521

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2023, 03:25:23 PM »
The age at which RMD's are required seems to be the same age at which one can make qualified charitable distributions directly out of the accounts. Hopefully those remain pegged, so if I find myself with too much I can start making QCD's.

Right now QCDs can be made starting at age 70.5, and RMDs for those who haven't started yet will start at age 73 (through 1959 I think) or 75 (1960 and later I think).

Congress can always change the laws again, of course.

Dicey

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2023, 03:42:07 PM »
We're working through this, too. Such a first world, Mustachian People Problem.

We will probably start taking RMD's sooner, as waiting will probably increase the tax hit.

We may start taking SS before FRA.

We established a DAF with a small inherited 401k, which has been very fun. We will beef it up in the years to come.

Of course, when you're as old as we are, all of this is a lot easier to contemplate. If we fail to optimize every single penny until it screams, it won't matter one bit.

Loren Ver

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2023, 04:30:36 PM »
I am reading your question different than others seem to be (not so much how do I spend money if I have extra), so I will answer it how I am reading it, and do it by telling you what we have done.

DH and I retired in our mid 30s.  What makes our retirement rather different is that most of our money is not locked away in tax advantaged accounts (401ks, HSA, IRA, Roth etc) but in regular brokerage accounts (60% right now, but it usually runs higher).  This makes our money highly accessible, but less tax friendly. In your question, you seem to be asking, is this a good place for money - higher taxes but more accessible.  Pull out more money, then put away what you don't use, have it be accessible for REASONS.

Well, I have to say, there are pros and cons:
Pros-
DH and I are lean and we leanFIRED (before our stach hit 100% actually) so flexibility is really important to us.  At one point the market ran up-like a lot.  And our mutual funds paid out capital gains, so then we had a nice extra buffer going into the drop.  But this bought us a lot of flexibility.  Then in the down market we only need to hit the ACA minimums until we recover.  Investments outside 401ks can give your added flexibility. 

If we need money- we can have money- and I can pick and choose which funds to take out of based on which cost basis I need to hit for MAGI vs how much cash I need to generate.  Obviously, i have different investments, not all one type or even company.

Options - if it is extra, you can do different things with the funds, set goals, take different risks (bond funds, leveraged funds, boring funds) if you so chose.  DH and I have some higher risk, high reward funds and more stable funds, they are used for different things.  Yeah- we are odd ducks here.  No, we don't stock pick or do anything fancy. 

Minimum distributions aren't going to be much of an issue since, not much of our holdings are in those.  We will eventually need to start taking our RMD, but the 401ks and IRAs are only about 30% of the stache.   

Cons
Taxes and MAGI
So the investments I am in don't usually pay out capital gains, but in the past few years, oh man, there were some real big chunks.  This has rocked our MAGI, and we had to pay back our ACA subsidy one year (which then got paid back to us due to COVID government help).  So that can happen.  Now we don't take money out, we see what they payouts are in December, then fill in the gaps for the next year. 

401ks give better protection from litigation etc.  I've never dealt with this, but have been told it.  So we will keep money locked in those as long as possible, just in case something happens. 

So, is it worth it - well- I always recommend to people I talk to that they should get the match, then I ask what the money is for and their tax bracket.  Having money in a brokerage account is very useful, look money!  It mostly depends on what you plan on using it for, and if you need it accessible.  You are FIRED.  If all you are doing is making more accounts to track, then all you are doing is giving your brain more work to do.  If you want an easily accessible investment of funds, go for it!  I love mine!  I have several and they are working out well for me.

Loren

hooplady

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2023, 08:04:34 PM »
The age at which RMD's are required seems to be the same age at which one can make qualified charitable distributions directly out of the accounts. Hopefully those remain pegged, so if I find myself with too much I can start making QCD's.

Right now QCDs can be made starting at age 70.5, and RMDs for those who haven't started yet will start at age 73 (through 1959 I think) or 75 (1960 and later I think).

Congress can always change the laws again, of course.
Thanks, for some reason I thought the QCD age had moved forward along with the RMD. But even better if QCD's are allowed earlier.

Sandi_k

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2023, 01:47:36 AM »
We're working through this, too. Such a first world, Mustachian People Problem.

If we fail to optimize every single penny until it screams, it won't matter one bit.

EXACTLY. I told DH that after 40+ years of working life and optimizing EVERYTHING, it's a "hard left" into a world where further optimization doesn't yield such significant results.

I need to work until 2024, due to changing our health insurance provider from HMO to PPO in November 2023, for a January 1, 2024 effective date.

And it recently dawned on me that 2/3rds of the difference in my pension amounts (from retiring in Feb 2024 instead of Sept. 2025) can be solved by having DH claim SS at age 62. We can draw more of our 'stache down as well for that 18 months, to bridge that earlier retirement date.

Since my pension and our SocSecurity payments all have COLAs, the difference in staying longer gets smoothed out a bit. And when my Social Sec. kicks in, we reduce our investment drawdown even more.

So Class of 2025 may indeed move to Class of 2024. We'll see. ;)



I am really feeling the Spring Fever this year.


Dicey

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2023, 02:49:33 AM »
I like this new thinking, @Sandi_k!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2023, 06:41:36 AM »
Posting to follow.  I keep putting off having to think too hard about this stuff by continuing to work, but that only makes the ‘problem’ worse 😅

2sk22

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2023, 07:03:05 AM »
As @Dicey says, we have very much of a first world problem in my household :-)

We have a lot of money in taxable brokerage because we long ago maxed out our 401Ks and still had a big surplus that was invested in index funds. Thanks to an inheritance and vested RSUs, we have as much in our taxable brokerage accounts as we do in our tax deferred accounts. And, we are also entitled to substantial pensions. Given our spending patterns, it's possible that we may never have to actually dip into the tax deferred savings. My favorite retirement calculator, Pralana Gold, suggested that we will probably have a peak withdrawal rate of less than 2%

My strategy is:
- defer social security until the last possible day
- roll pension lump sums into IRA
- aggressive Roth conversions after my wife retires (this takes priority over reducing income for ACA, IRMAA etc)
- give money to kids
- drastically increase charitable donations

I am currently reading the book "More than enough - a brief guide to the questions that arise after realizing that you have more than you need" by Mike Piper which seems quite relevant

Sandi_k

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2023, 10:23:50 AM »
I like this new thinking, @Sandi_k!

LOL, I knew you would. ;)

Meeting up with you can @couponvan gave me new folks to talk to, and this phase of life has me scratching my head. But the challenges we're facing - especially around elder care and health challenges - really is pushing me to re-frame in a substantial way.

lhamo

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2023, 11:44:30 AM »
There goes your anxious brain again, my friend! ;)

Gonna suggest a totally different approach, though I suspect you won't want to try it.

How much cash do you think you would want to have on hand, in easily accessible forms, for you to pretty much STOP looking at your finances for 5-10 years -- just put the long-term accounts on autopilot, do your conversions and rebalancing in a way that makes sense for NOW, and try to see how you feel when money is in the chiller section rather than under the heat lamps?  What number would make you feel comfortable enough that if you saw that in the bank your brain would think "we're good, no need to spin about money"?

Think about trying to get things set up that way and then STOP OBSESSING ABOUT OPTIMIZING YOUR MONEY FOR AWHILE!

Include a big chunk for therapy, too. ;)

I'm not gonna lie -- my anxiety sometimes kicks in and drives me to a similar place.  But having cold hard cash in the bank that we are living off of while the longer term investments just keep doing their thing has been immensely helpful so that it rarely takes over my brain/my days any more.  I did have a big swirl of money anxiety this week -- looking at you taxes that are more complicated than they should be due to reasons I cannot control. It was pretty awful.  But that in itself was a good reminder that while the choices we made over what to do with the stash over the last 5-10 years may be considered financially sub-optimal by some, we still have way more than we need and I haven't had to spend my days and nights with my brain swirling around in spreadsheets -- real or imaginary.  We have enough.  I know we have enough.  And once you have enough why are you wasting time/energy worrying about squeezing out MOAR....?

Oh, and I think I have mentioned this before but will mention again -- can you also reframe how you are thinking about taxes?  We still are paying minimal federal taxes, and that has worked out well for us on lots of fronts (also qualifies us for healthcare and great financial aid for DD), but after we move out of this stage and I move into a different phase of my financial life I am going to try hard to focus on the things that taxes pay for that benefit me/others in society.  Do I want to live in a community with a good social safety net, good schools and libraries, good roads, and good plans for the future?  Yes.   Taxes pay for all that stuff.  So in addition to donating a big chunk of whatever surplus I may have, I'm pretty sure I won't resent having to pay higher taxes in the latter part of my life.



dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2023, 12:03:41 PM »
Does anyone else who is already RE and drawing down their stash consider how this will play out over their lifetime? Do you just make the minimum income moves you need to to cover annual expenses? This is a subject that I feel like I haven't seen discussed a whole lot. I was hoping maybe this was a thing that other people have different approaches to and it would be enlightening.

I'm RE and drawing down my money... kind of. I also think I have "too big" a stash but I'm still not withdrawing anything and it's been over a year. I'm just living off of dividends I can't avoid and amazing loans I got just before rates went up, plus some short term cash I had on hand. I just can't bring myself to liquidate any positions at a loss, bonds, stocks, whatever, haha, unless absolutely necessary. It seems absurd but there you go.

I'm also concerned enough about sequence of returns to still be trying to optimize everything, although realistically even if the market fell by 50% from here and stayed there for 5 years I'd probably be fine.

Accumulating is just so much more fun than spending to me. It's crazy. You'd figure going out and spending would be more fun but it's just not. I go on a lot of trips and spend quite a bit but accumulating wealth is just... fun!

I'm in such a crazy mindset right now that I've been throwing around the idea of buying an annuity with a large portion of my stash and using that as my "income" to.... build another stash! Isn't that crazy? Why is it like this...

All of that said, I'm not going back to work to accumulate more money.

Ron Scott

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2023, 12:44:40 PM »

I'm RE and drawing down my money... kind of. I also think I have "too big" a stash but I'm still not withdrawing anything and it's been over a year. I'm just living off of dividends I can't avoid and amazing loans I got just before rates went up, plus some short term cash I had on hand. I just can't bring myself to liquidate any positions at a loss, bonds, stocks, whatever, haha, unless absolutely necessary. It seems absurd but there you go.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to live on interest and dividends with no portfolio drawdowns, especially to avoid selling assets at a loss.

MrGreen

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2023, 02:30:22 PM »
In our particular case, the question of whether to produce an income greater than we need plays a fairly significant role in what options we will have over the next 20 years because currently only 26% of our stash (400k) is available to us penalty-free via after-tax accounts and Roth IRA principal. Life is full of surprises and with the flexibility to take just about any change in stride, I'd like to see that number be larger to accommodate the possibility of an unexpected six-figure expense during a significant market downturn.

We could choose to keep our income low enough to take maximum advantage of ACA subsidies, etc. but that would not grow the amount of money available to us and it could even reduce it over time depending on how we executed that plan. While this would preserve and grow our stash the most, I don't feel like this is a wise course of action.

At the other end of that spectrum we could push our income up to whatever my modeling suggests, electing to pay a 30%+ marginal tax rate on the last 20-30k. Paying significantly higher taxes across our lifetime would ensure we don't see massive RMDs in older age, but if it's money we were extremely unlikely to spend in the first place then those are tax dollars we could have done something differently with, via charitable contributions, etc.

Choosing how to approach our income is something we're just putting into practice. The last two years were the first two for significant Roth IRA conversions and it's only in that time that I've realized we have, in all likelihood, a "too much" problem. I have a fair idea of how I think we want to handle it but I started the thread because I've learned many things here when I wasn't looking for them.

Thinking about this is more of a game for me than anything because we're already in the end stage of our financial journey. We accumulated, we FIREd, now we're in the first few years of earnest drawdown. It's a good time to review our experience, consider adjustments, and prepare for autopilot moving forward.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 02:32:27 PM by Mr. Green »

bacchi

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2023, 08:23:34 PM »
Accumulating is just so much more fun than spending to me. It's crazy. You'd figure going out and spending would be more fun but it's just not. I go on a lot of trips and spend quite a bit but accumulating wealth is just... fun!

I'm still bummed that robo-brokers didn't come around until I was at the end of my earning years. I was able to start a small IRA at one and it was so cool to deposit money and see it auto-invest.

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2023, 10:38:25 AM »
Our base spending is about 45k per year (we missed the 3% mortgage gravy train) and I could imagine total spending rising as high as 60k per year if we decide to spend multiple months per year in Airbnbs for the foreseeable future.
With 40 years of inflation at 2%, you could be spending $100k/year for the same things that cost $45k/year now.  Also possible under 3% inflation for about 25 years.  It might be interesting to see how well your portfolio handles a stress test using inflation.

Another possibility is deciding to sell the house and move to a more expensive city.  I'm sure most people can cite reasons why they aren't planning to do that now... but guaranteeing no changes for 20+ years is another matter.  So it may also be interesting to model things like moving to an expensive U.S. or foreign city.  Which is also easier to imagine with a larger portfolio.

MrGreen

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2023, 01:56:18 PM »
Our base spending is about 45k per year (we missed the 3% mortgage gravy train) and I could imagine total spending rising as high as 60k per year if we decide to spend multiple months per year in Airbnbs for the foreseeable future.
With 40 years of inflation at 2%, you could be spending $100k/year for the same things that cost $45k/year now.  Also possible under 3% inflation for about 25 years.  It might be interesting to see how well your portfolio handles a stress test using inflation.

Another possibility is deciding to sell the house and move to a more expensive city.  I'm sure most people can cite reasons why they aren't planning to do that now... but guaranteeing no changes for 20+ years is another matter.  So it may also be interesting to model things like moving to an expensive U.S. or foreign city.  Which is also easier to imagine with a larger portfolio.
Sorry, I meant I model spending up to 60k per year in today's dollars. I use a 5% average ROR after inflation which is almost 2% lower than the historical average. I figure that a decent slightly-on-the-conservative-side number to use.

Moving to a more expensive city is a realistic scenario I could imagine for us in the future, which is one of the reasons why I think we'll want to grow our available dollars over the next 20 years. I could see us living in the intermountain west somewhere. At the moment I'm kinda fond of the suburbs near Boulder because the access to higher elevations is so easy. Home prices there are significantly more expensive than they are here so we would need additional cash for a down payment, assuming we chose to buy a house rather than rent.

bmjohnson35

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2023, 06:13:24 AM »
It doesn't sound like your FAT Fire yet. Assuming you're simply trying to get ahead of the game, placing a small percentage into a Roth each year seems like the simple solution to your concern.  Furthermore, if you haven't already, you can write down a bucket list.  Knocking off an item off it each year while you're young and healthy could be fun.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 06:52:24 AM by bmjohnson35 »

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2023, 07:14:36 AM »
At the current yields that the market offers, our spending will be more than covered by dividends and interest.  This gives me choices about what to do with the principal.  I have a feeling I will follow in the footsteps of how my Dad did it, only on a larger level.  Basically, he make large lump sump purchases at random times when it 'felt right' (usually when the market was good or an opportunity popped up) - buying a vacation cabin, buying more luxurious cars (his one 'vice'), doing around the world travel, and helping us kids (and grandkids).  It won't come across as 'Mustachian', but it's not like I'm forced to post everything about my life on this forum (thank goodness!).

The Finance Buff had a good way of putting it - "A point of being wealthy is to become less price-sensitive on more things."

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2023, 10:21:17 AM »
The Roth conversion ladder doesn't move move money out of retirement accounts, spending from Roth does. Up until you choose to spend from Roth, the conversion ladder moves money out of taxable, if you are paying taxes on any of the conversion. If you have access to the MBR, it is a great boost for early retirees.

But for actual spending, we have definitely upped our travel budget: we just got back from Mexico and are headed to Canada next week. We are also considering upgrading our housing to a newer boat more suitable to a wider variety of climes. This unusual SoCal winter has really shown the shortcomings of our boat, but we were already considering a very different design and electric propulsion.

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2023, 11:12:40 AM »
At the current yields that the market offers, our spending will be more than covered by dividends and interest.  This gives me choices about what to do with the principal. It won't come across as 'Mustachian', but it's not like I'm forced to post everything about my life on this forum (thank goodness!).

This is the best place to be financially and the best working definition of FI—live off interest and dividends, and preserve or grow the principal. 25X doesn’t cut it.

On the other end of the spectrum are people who are not really FI and not really retired. No thanks.

dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2023, 11:42:56 AM »
At the current yields that the market offers, our spending will be more than covered by dividends and interest.  This gives me choices about what to do with the principal. It won't come across as 'Mustachian', but it's not like I'm forced to post everything about my life on this forum (thank goodness!).

This is the best place to be financially and the best working definition of FI—live off interest and dividends, and preserve or grow the principal. 25X doesn’t cut it.

On the other end of the spectrum are people who are not really FI and not really retired. No thanks.

I'm almost doing this but it's obviously excessive savings. If you never actually touch your principal you're going to die with a whole lot of money and you could have worked way, way, less.

What's crazy about this is that if you have $10M in BRK.B shares and spent $100k a year, the logic above would say you aren't FI because you have to liquidate shares to pay for things since BRK.B has no distributions.

seattlecyclone

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2023, 12:10:56 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2023, 12:47:07 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2023, 12:59:19 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

I actually agree that it's somehow psychologically easier to get the dividends than to sell shares. I hate when I know that something shouldn't make sense but feel/do it anyway. It's annoying.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2023, 01:03:04 PM »
At the current yields that the market offers, our spending will be more than covered by dividends and interest.  This gives me choices about what to do with the principal. It won't come across as 'Mustachian', but it's not like I'm forced to post everything about my life on this forum (thank goodness!).

This is the best place to be financially and the best working definition of FI—live off interest and dividends, and preserve or grow the principal. 25X doesn’t cut it.

On the other end of the spectrum are people who are not really FI and not really retired. No thanks.

I'm almost doing this but it's obviously excessive savings. If you never actually touch your principal you're going to die with a whole lot of money and you could have worked way, way, less.

What's crazy about this is that if you have $10M in BRK.B shares and spent $100k a year, the logic above would say you aren't FI because you have to liquidate shares to pay for things since BRK.B has no distributions.

It is ridiculously conservative, well beyond the 4% rule.  After living this way for a few years, you realize that principal (last year non-withstanding) grows very quickly and dividends and interest barely budge.  That's how you get these chunks of principal that you can voluntarily spend with no real effect on lowering the annual income.  Having this Fat of FI isn't necessary, but it is possible.

If bond yields go back to zero and dividends are only 2%, I'll revert back to thinking more along the lines of the 4% rule of thumb when determining how much portfolio to sell.

Lots of mental games to make the de-cumulation phase more smooth, you've probably seem the ERN vs. Retirement Manifesto 'Buckets of Money' discussion - https://earlyretirementnow.com/2023/01/25/discussing-retirement-bucket-strategies-with-fritz-gilbert-swr-series-part-55/

seattlecyclone

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2023, 01:41:08 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

I actually agree that it's somehow psychologically easier to get the dividends than to sell shares. I hate when I know that something shouldn't make sense but feel/do it anyway. It's annoying.

Yeah I agree. Dividends come into the checking account automatically, and that means I don't need to think about selling shares that month. I still sell shares because that always needs to be part of the plan with withdrawal rates larger than 2% or so.

Ron Scott

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2023, 03:17:00 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

I actually agree that it's somehow psychologically easier to get the dividends than to sell shares. I hate when I know that something shouldn't make sense but feel/do it anyway. It's annoying.

Yeah, you’re right. I’m just used to index funds.

I actually prefer buybacks to dividends for companies who can’t deploy capital more effectively. At least then the income isn’t forced on me and I can choose when to sell and pay taxes.

But I push back on people who say you should retire at a 4-5% WR. They rely on historical data, which doesn’t make sense to me, assume more risk, often ignore large expenses, and assume for some reason that others don’t want to gift much or leave a good-size inheritance.if I die with a lot of money the undertaker will have to deal with that smile on my face.

MrGreen

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2023, 09:10:54 PM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

I actually agree that it's somehow psychologically easier to get the dividends than to sell shares. I hate when I know that something shouldn't make sense but feel/do it anyway. It's annoying.

Yeah, you’re right. I’m just used to index funds.

I actually prefer buybacks to dividends for companies who can’t deploy capital more effectively. At least then the income isn’t forced on me and I can choose when to sell and pay taxes.

But I push back on people who say you should retire at a 4-5% WR. They rely on historical data, which doesn’t make sense to me, assume more risk, often ignore large expenses, and assume for some reason that others don’t want to gift much or leave a good-size inheritance.if I die with a lot of money the undertaker will have to deal with that smile on my face.
For someone as young as me it's potentially a two part problem, withdrawal rate and income generation. If we limited our income to just our base spending, we're under a 2% WR. If we paid off our 6% mortgage our WR drops close to 1%. This would limit our options though as it minimizes the amount of money available to us rather than maximizes it. Once we're over 60 then everything is accessible but that's a long ways off for me, longer still than I've been out of college. Flexibility has been a big thing for us after leaving work and upping the income piece will hopefully give us more of that. I'm just not quite settled on how high I want to push it.

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2023, 11:43:19 PM »
Forbes has an interesting article related to this: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/retirement/dynamic-spending-rules/.  The section on the Yale Spending Rule was interesting but I think I'll stick to the 4% static spending rule, at-least until I see some extensive modeling/simulations.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 12:58:08 AM by xbdb »

Ron Scott

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2023, 07:43:30 AM »
Yep, dividends aren't some kind of magic money that is better to spend than the rest of your investments. They're merely one of a few ways that a company can choose to deploy capital for the benefit of their shareholders. It's okay to realize the benefits from companies that choose an alternate path too.

Although I have understood this academically for years, it's still a whole lot easier to allow dividends to flow in to my money market and spend vs. having to sell shares.  I'm still looking at total return and not making investing decisions based on maximizing dividends, it just so happens that yields and dividends on my holdings are up significantly and now allow for this more simplified way of funding my spending...

I actually agree that it's somehow psychologically easier to get the dividends than to sell shares. I hate when I know that something shouldn't make sense but feel/do it anyway. It's annoying.

Yeah, you’re right. I’m just used to index funds.

I actually prefer buybacks to dividends for companies who can’t deploy capital more effectively. At least then the income isn’t forced on me and I can choose when to sell and pay taxes.

But I push back on people who say you should retire at a 4-5% WR. They rely on historical data, which doesn’t make sense to me, assume more risk, often ignore large expenses, and assume for some reason that others don’t want to gift much or leave a good-size inheritance.if I die with a lot of money the undertaker will have to deal with that smile on my face.
For someone as young as me it's potentially a two part problem, withdrawal rate and income generation. If we limited our income to just our base spending, we're under a 2% WR. If we paid off our 6% mortgage our WR drops close to 1%. This would limit our options though as it minimizes the amount of money available to us rather than maximizes it. Once we're over 60 then everything is accessible but that's a long ways off for me, longer still than I've been out of college. Flexibility has been a big thing for us after leaving work and upping the income piece will hopefully give us more of that. I'm just not quite settled on how high I want to push it.

If you’ve accumulated enough wealth to retire before you start the second half at a 2% WR or lower, you’ve got options and this should be celebrated.

Example: I know people who have 2 or more residences, travel regularly, enjoy live entertainment frequently, and are retired. But you’d be hard pressed to know they’re wealthy by looking at them. They drive average cars, eat out once a week at average places, dress simply, and shop at Marshall’s and Trader Joe. They wait for sales. The foundational elements of their lives are extremely well funded and managed, but they cringe at the thought of conspicuous consumption and don’t show off in public.

And that lifestyle is just ONE OPTION. Depending on your wealth you may have many more.

Gifting? I’ve always liked Buffet’s line about giving kids money: “Give them enough so they can do anything but not so much that they can do nothing.” So there’s that…

You are lucky. You can relax and explore options. This is a feature not a bug.

Finally, when your taxable wealth grows high, consider stuff like munis there…and just pay taxes. So long as your portfolio is tax-efficient income is still good.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 07:48:19 AM by Ron Scott »

dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2023, 09:10:32 AM »
Forbes has an interesting article related to this: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/retirement/dynamic-spending-rules/.  The section on the Yale Spending Rule was interesting but I think I'll stick to the 4% static spending rule, at-least until I see some extensive modeling/simulations.

Bogleheads has a variable % withdrawal that guarantees not running out of money and spending most of it down:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Variable_percentage_withdrawal

Of course, it requires drastic (~50%) spending cuts if the market tanks. I still use it monthly as a useful model to see if I'm overspending/how much I'm "underspending" by.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2023, 09:21:45 AM »
...
For someone as young as me it's potentially a two part problem, withdrawal rate and income generation. If we limited our income to just our base spending, we're under a 2% WR. If we paid off our 6% mortgage our WR drops close to 1%. This would limit our options though as it minimizes the amount of money available to us rather than maximizes it. Once we're over 60 then everything is accessible but that's a long ways off for me, longer still than I've been out of college. Flexibility has been a big thing for us after leaving work and upping the income piece will hopefully give us more of that. I'm just not quite settled on how high I want to push it.

There is a benefit to being older and closer to the 65 medicare / SS-ish age.  I would also be more conservative in my 30's and 40's to preserve principal, but at 50 it's much clearer that spending 4% for 15 years isn't going to send me back to work.  I don't feel as much pressure to optimize, so I went ahead and paid off the rest of the 15 year mortgage and have a higher bond allocation - things I never would have done at your age.  Like launching a rocket, the choices you are making now will change the trajectory much more than when you are half way to your destination...

dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2023, 09:44:55 AM »
...
For someone as young as me it's potentially a two part problem, withdrawal rate and income generation. If we limited our income to just our base spending, we're under a 2% WR. If we paid off our 6% mortgage our WR drops close to 1%. This would limit our options though as it minimizes the amount of money available to us rather than maximizes it. Once we're over 60 then everything is accessible but that's a long ways off for me, longer still than I've been out of college. Flexibility has been a big thing for us after leaving work and upping the income piece will hopefully give us more of that. I'm just not quite settled on how high I want to push it.

There is a benefit to being older and closer to the 65 medicare / SS-ish age.  I would also be more conservative in my 30's and 40's to preserve principal, but at 50 it's much clearer that spending 4% for 15 years isn't going to send me back to work.  I don't feel as much pressure to optimize, so I went ahead and paid off the rest of the 15 year mortgage and have a higher bond allocation - things I never would have done at your age. Like launching a rocket, the choices you are making now will change the trajectory much more than when you are half way to your destination...

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MrGreen

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2023, 10:06:54 AM »
...
For someone as young as me it's potentially a two part problem, withdrawal rate and income generation. If we limited our income to just our base spending, we're under a 2% WR. If we paid off our 6% mortgage our WR drops close to 1%. This would limit our options though as it minimizes the amount of money available to us rather than maximizes it. Once we're over 60 then everything is accessible but that's a long ways off for me, longer still than I've been out of college. Flexibility has been a big thing for us after leaving work and upping the income piece will hopefully give us more of that. I'm just not quite settled on how high I want to push it.
There is a benefit to being older and closer to the 65 medicare / SS-ish age.  I would also be more conservative in my 30's and 40's to preserve principal, but at 50 it's much clearer that spending 4% for 15 years isn't going to send me back to work.  I don't feel as much pressure to optimize, so I went ahead and paid off the rest of the 15 year mortgage and have a higher bond allocation - things I never would have done at your age.  Like launching a rocket, the choices you are making now will change the trajectory much more than when you are half way to your destination...
And that's essentially what my time is spent thinking about, which is fun because at this point we can't lose. We could pay the mortgage off tomorrow and our base spending without any travel drops to ~25k on a net worth of 2.25MM, not including the value of our house.

The range of possibilities for how one could approach this is truly huge if one understands how their lifetime expenses will likely play out. I just had the thought yesterday that perhaps we'll refinance into a 15 year mortgage when rates come down. Since this is a house that we think we could be in for a long time, I don't know that I want to be reaching mortgage pay off when I'm in my early 70s. Moving to a 15 year mortgage would reach pay off in my mid-50s, right about the time our daughter could go to college.

The crazy thing is that once the mortgage is paid off, our basic spending is so small that Social Security will more than cover it, even with whatever changes come down the pike. So really, I could make the argument that one potential target scenario is spending "most" of our money by age 70, leaving some for nursing/long-term care/heirs.

The many paths that one could take from our position makes it feel like a game. You can't win the game per se, but you can play it well. That's all I'm looking to do is play it well. Maybe we're already doing it about as well as we can but I figure there probably some cool ideas or thoughts out there that other people have had that might be an improvement.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 10:14:32 AM by Mr. Green »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2023, 06:52:57 PM »
... I just had the thought yesterday that perhaps we'll refinance into a 15 year mortgage when rates come down. Since this is a house that we think we could be in for a long time, I don't know that I want to be reaching mortgage pay off when I'm in my early 70s. Moving to a 15 year mortgage would reach pay off in my mid-50s, right about the time our daughter could go to college.
Two disadvantages of that idea, followed by an alternative:  first, you will pay to refinance (in either higher rates, or fixed costs).  Second, your minimum monthly payments will be larger on a 15 year versus 30 year mortgage.

My suggestion is to "test drive" adding more to your mortgage payment each month.  If you look at current mortgages (30 year 6.3%, or $1k/mo for $100k loan), you can add 10% ($100/mo) to transform a 30 year into a 21 year mortgage.  There are diminishing returns to this approach: 20% brings it down to 16 years, but the more you pre-pay the principal, the faster the mortgage gets paid off.  If you use this approach, you can always fall back to the minimum 30 year mortgage payments, and there's no refinancing cost.

https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/prepaying-your-mortgage/
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 06:58:53 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

ofradvd

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2023, 02:33:38 AM »
Big like +1, @Sandi_k!

flyingaway

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2023, 06:47:11 AM »
You could increase your spending to solve your problem.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!