Author Topic: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?  (Read 6919 times)

TreeLeaf

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2023, 06:56:17 AM »
You can donate your money to other firees to help them achieve FIRE sooner.

I can DM you my cashapp ID if you're interested in taking this approach. :D

Sandi_k

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2023, 09:30:28 AM »
Big like +1, @Sandi_k!

Thank you for the encouragement. ;)

ca-rn

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2023, 06:31:14 PM »
40 is an interesting age. You’re old enough to feel comfortable with your priorities but too young to know if they’ll change. Your stash is not too large; your worldview is too restricted.

Case in point—Why is your head in a place consumed with lament about missing out on social safety net programs? This is what I’d expect from a 75-year-old whose friends are getting their screens replaced through a state welfare program but who missed the cutoff by a few grand and has  to pay out of pocket. Get out of this mindset man.

Money can’t buy you love, but it can give you options. Use your mental energy thinking about expanding rather than restricting those options.

I'm guessing that OP is factoring getting ACA credits as part of FIRE budget. 

I know I am or at least playing with the models and its depressing. 

After a lifetime (as an adult) of working/saving/optimizing and getting very good healthcare insurance thru work I haven't been able wrap my head around paying alot more money to get way worse/less healthcare coverage yet. I'm working on it as it will most likely be my reality.

I have very good healthcare coverage w/low copays that I rarely use.  I do my best to stay healthy. To get similar coverage w/o ACA credits, it'll be about 1k month.

I'm used to living frugally, which helped me to reach FI so its incredibly difficult to accept paying 12k/year for something that'll be rarely used.  I'm trying to get used to it by including it into my planned future budget so by the time I actually FIRE- I'll of seen it enough to accept it, like an expensive utility bill.

Also considering expatFIRE to explore the world w/cheaper healthcare coverage cost.

But yes, its a good problem to have and for that I am grateful!


kpd905

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2023, 06:45:51 PM »
@ca-rn

Do you plan on not getting any ACA subsidies?  You said you are frugal, but what is your projected income?

jim555

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2023, 11:43:33 PM »
40 is an interesting age. You’re old enough to feel comfortable with your priorities but too young to know if they’ll change. Your stash is not too large; your worldview is too restricted.

Case in point—Why is your head in a place consumed with lament about missing out on social safety net programs? This is what I’d expect from a 75-year-old whose friends are getting their screens replaced through a state welfare program but who missed the cutoff by a few grand and has  to pay out of pocket. Get out of this mindset man.

Money can’t buy you love, but it can give you options. Use your mental energy thinking about expanding rather than restricting those options.

I'm guessing that OP is factoring getting ACA credits as part of FIRE budget. 

I know I am or at least playing with the models and its depressing. 

After a lifetime (as an adult) of working/saving/optimizing and getting very good healthcare insurance thru work I haven't been able wrap my head around paying alot more money to get way worse/less healthcare coverage yet. I'm working on it as it will most likely be my reality.

I have very good healthcare coverage w/low copays that I rarely use.  I do my best to stay healthy. To get similar coverage w/o ACA credits, it'll be about 1k month.

I'm used to living frugally, which helped me to reach FI so its incredibly difficult to accept paying 12k/year for something that'll be rarely used.  I'm trying to get used to it by including it into my planned future budget so by the time I actually FIRE- I'll of seen it enough to accept it, like an expensive utility bill.

Also considering expatFIRE to explore the world w/cheaper healthcare coverage cost.

But yes, its a good problem to have and for that I am grateful!
Check the estimator:
https://www.kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

dividendman

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2023, 03:24:44 PM »
40 is an interesting age. You’re old enough to feel comfortable with your priorities but too young to know if they’ll change. Your stash is not too large; your worldview is too restricted.

Case in point—Why is your head in a place consumed with lament about missing out on social safety net programs? This is what I’d expect from a 75-year-old whose friends are getting their screens replaced through a state welfare program but who missed the cutoff by a few grand and has  to pay out of pocket. Get out of this mindset man.

Money can’t buy you love, but it can give you options. Use your mental energy thinking about expanding rather than restricting those options.

I'm guessing that OP is factoring getting ACA credits as part of FIRE budget. 

I know I am or at least playing with the models and its depressing. 

After a lifetime (as an adult) of working/saving/optimizing and getting very good healthcare insurance thru work I haven't been able wrap my head around paying alot more money to get way worse/less healthcare coverage yet. I'm working on it as it will most likely be my reality.

I have very good healthcare coverage w/low copays that I rarely use.  I do my best to stay healthy. To get similar coverage w/o ACA credits, it'll be about 1k month.

I'm used to living frugally, which helped me to reach FI so its incredibly difficult to accept paying 12k/year for something that'll be rarely used.  I'm trying to get used to it by including it into my planned future budget so by the time I actually FIRE- I'll of seen it enough to accept it, like an expensive utility bill.

Also considering expatFIRE to explore the world w/cheaper healthcare coverage cost.

But yes, its a good problem to have and for that I am grateful!
Check the estimator:
https://www.kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

Cool resource, it checks out with my numbers too!

BicycleB

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2023, 02:44:38 PM »
With respect to finances, all my mental energy these days is spent trying to optimize our stash drawdown and thinking about various associated challenges over our lifetime. I'm not quite 40 yet so we have potentially quite a long runway. I'm a big fan of our stash having the most utility at any given time in our future lives, and we're young so there are certain restraints when it comes to retirement funds. We've reached the point where our stash is larger than it needs to be and, I suspect, if we stuck to generating no more income than we needed it would likely run away from us by the time we're truly old.

Our base spending is about 45k per year (we missed the 3% mortgage gravy train) and I could imagine total spending rising as high as 60k per year if we decide to spend multiple months per year in Airbnbs for the foreseeable future. I have done extensive modeling that shows we could generate a taxable income right at the 400% FPL threshold (so as to not go over the ACA subsidy cliff) and have spending be even higher than that without running out of money, and the model is conservative compared to the historical average return. I can't imagine spending that much money (92k+ for a family of 3) but it may be better long term to generate a higher income over a longer period of time and deposit those funds being transitioned out of retirement accounts via the Roth IRA conversion pipeline into a brokerage account.

Of course there's a tax cost to choosing a higher income and if we don't plan to spend it I question whether it's worth doing. There's certainly utility in having more of our dollars available to us, but it's hypothetical utility. If our annual spending needs are already covered by a much lower amount we're essentially covering against unforeseen situations, good or bad, that would require larger amounts. Is paying more in taxes worth having access to a larger pile of money in an emergency or to take advantage of a deal?

Does anyone else who is already RE and drawing down their stash consider how this will play out over their lifetime? Do you just make the minimum income moves you need to to cover annual expenses? This is a subject that I feel like I haven't seen discussed a whole lot. I was hoping maybe this was a thing that other people have different approaches to and it would be enlightening.

@Mr. Green, not reading whole thread rn but considered your question previously; thoughts below, sorry if they duplicate others'.

1. Extra money is good for donations!
2. Donations in small amounts can be done any time, so look for high value opportunities. Respond/ seize them as they come. Don't wait until you're old.
3. For maximum tax efficiency in giving, start a donor fund. Give an amount well above the standard deduction, then itemize that year; your overall tax efficiency will be as good as always, but this will enable you to efficiently give amounts smaller than the standard deduction. Of course the drawback is you're obligated to distribute at least 5% of fund annually, so this is only worth doing if you're ready to give at least annually.
4. When RMDs appear (age 70? now 72?) remember RMDs can be directly donated to charity. Thus, donations can be very tax efficient.
5. Strictly speaking, 4 implies that there's no rush. The reason to do 2 and 3 is to do good ASAP since you can, and to maximize impact per dollar given.
6. If you want some of your money to go to charity when you die, establish a will that will accomplish this. You can die tomorrow, so regardless of what you desire, make the will match your goals. You can revise when older.
7. Also bear in mind that your financial accounts may not be covered by will. If they're payable on death, they may evade the will and go to named beneficiary. I think in some states the best way to direct the financial accounts to charity is to create a trust for that purpose and name a beneficiary but I haven't done the details on that yet.
8. I recognize that marriage and children may put charity in second or third place re disposal of assets, but since you've determined that you're likely to have extra, you and your spouse can arrange your documents to produce the asset distribution you desire. Might be worth consulting an estate lawyer to verify your plan if you go this route.

One good thing about giving is you can start with small experiments and expand later. You could try it for a while, then decide whether to do the bigger pieces such as establishing donor funds or a trust.

Separately from the donation aspect, did you already set up a financial trustee in case you and spouse die prior to child's coming of age? Sorry if that's off topic, it's just prior in the assumed task stack.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 03:54:44 PM by BicycleB »

monarda

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2023, 03:11:53 PM »
PTF. I hope to have this 'problem' someday but we're not there yet.
The concept of 'enough' isn't discussed enough. I see sooooo much greed around me.
(Also following the die with zero thread.)

clifp

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2023, 03:41:22 PM »
Many chronic diseases, especially dementia can be devastating financially.  We spent well over a million dollars, and closer to $130K annually the last couple years for my mom the last ten years of her life.  Fortunately, she had $1 million+ portfolio and we had double digit stock market performance, so her portfolio only shrank the last last three years.\

On the other hand if you want to stay in your home, and your partner needs 24-hour care.  That is 24x$25 (not possible if you go through and agency) or $600/day x 365=  $219,000/year plus what the well partner spends.

I'm somewhat worried about giving my money away, but until I hit $10,000,000 I'm not going to be overly concerned.

secondcor521

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2023, 05:39:10 PM »
3. For maximum tax efficiency in giving, start a donor fund. Give an amount well above the standard deduction, then itemize that year; your overall tax efficiency will be as good as always, but this will enable you to efficiently give amounts smaller than the standard deduction. Of course the drawback is you're obligated to distribute at least 5% of fund annually, so this is only worth doing if you're ready to give at least annually.

4. When RMDs appear (age 70? now 72?) remember RMDs can be directly donated to charity. Thus, donations can be very tax efficient.

7. Also bear in mind that your financial accounts may not be covered by will. If they're payable on death, they may evade the will and go to named beneficiary. I think in some states the best way to direct the financial accounts to charity is to create a trust for that purpose and name a beneficiary but I haven't done the details on that yet.

I have a different understanding on several points:

3.  DAFs are not required to distribute 5% annually.  Private foundations are.  See https://philanthropydaily.com/how-much-regulation-of-donor-advised-funds-is-enough for one cite.

4.  QCDs are charitable contributions from IRAs that count towards RMDs.  But QCDs start at 70.5, whereas RMDs now start at 72/73/75.  Also, QCDs are limited to $100K per taxpayer per year, so in some extreme cases not all of the RMD can be QCDed.

7.  Creating a trust just to pass money to a charity seems like extra work for no benefit.  Trusts are usually done for minors, disabled individuals, asset protection, or evil spouse protection, none of which apply in this scenario.  I would just list the charity as a beneficiary on an account or name them in my will.

BicycleB

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2023, 06:05:42 PM »
3. For maximum tax efficiency in giving, start a donor fund. Give an amount well above the standard deduction, then itemize that year; your overall tax efficiency will be as good as always, but this will enable you to efficiently give amounts smaller than the standard deduction. Of course the drawback is you're obligated to distribute at least 5% of fund annually, so this is only worth doing if you're ready to give at least annually.

4. When RMDs appear (age 70? now 72?) remember RMDs can be directly donated to charity. Thus, donations can be very tax efficient.

7. Also bear in mind that your financial accounts may not be covered by will. If they're payable on death, they may evade the will and go to named beneficiary. I think in some states the best way to direct the financial accounts to charity is to create a trust for that purpose and name a beneficiary but I haven't done the details on that yet.

I have a different understanding on several points:

3.  DAFs are not required to distribute 5% annually.  Private foundations are.  See https://philanthropydaily.com/how-much-regulation-of-donor-advised-funds-is-enough for one cite.

4.  QCDs are charitable contributions from IRAs that count towards RMDs.  But QCDs start at 70.5, whereas RMDs now start at 72/73/75.  Also, QCDs are limited to $100K per taxpayer per year, so in some extreme cases not all of the RMD can be QCDed.

7.  Creating a trust just to pass money to a charity seems like extra work for no benefit.  Trusts are usually done for minors, disabled individuals, asset protection, or evil spouse protection, none of which apply in this scenario.  I would just list the charity as a beneficiary on an account or name them in my will.

Thanks, @secondcor521. Good to know.

Mr. Green

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2023, 06:21:38 AM »
@clifp end-of-life care is definitely something I don't want to overlook but the stash accumulation risk is pretty significantly for us. Our spending is low enough that if we really wanted to maximize accumulation we could pay off our mortgage and keep our income under 150% FPL, which would essentially mean we'd pay nothing for medical care as long as the ACA is around. Using a fairly conservative projected return of 5%, which is almost 2% below the historical average, we're left with potentially $20 million in today's dollars by age 100. RMDs go over 300kper year in that case. Unless we were trying to turn our stash into a generational family legacy investment type situation (think family office) then it's about as tax inefficient as possible.

GilesMM

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2023, 08:00:37 AM »
3. For maximum tax efficiency in giving, start a donor fund. Give an amount well above the standard deduction, then itemize that year; your overall tax efficiency will be as good as always, but this will enable you to efficiently give amounts smaller than the standard deduction. Of course the drawback is you're obligated to distribute at least 5% of fund annually, so this is only worth doing if you're ready to give at least annually.

4. When RMDs appear (age 70? now 72?) remember RMDs can be directly donated to charity. Thus, donations can be very tax efficient.

7. Also bear in mind that your financial accounts may not be covered by will. If they're payable on death, they may evade the will and go to named beneficiary. I think in some states the best way to direct the financial accounts to charity is to create a trust for that purpose and name a beneficiary but I haven't done the details on that yet.

I have a different understanding on several points:

3.  DAFs are not required to distribute 5% annually.  Private foundations are.  See https://philanthropydaily.com/how-much-regulation-of-donor-advised-funds-is-enough for one cite.

4.  QCDs are charitable contributions from IRAs that count towards RMDs.  But QCDs start at 70.5, whereas RMDs now start at 72/73/75.  Also, QCDs are limited to $100K per taxpayer per year, so in some extreme cases not all of the RMD can be QCDed.

7.  Creating a trust just to pass money to a charity seems like extra work for no benefit.  Trusts are usually done for minors, disabled individuals, asset protection, or evil spouse protection, none of which apply in this scenario.  I would just list the charity as a beneficiary on an account or name them in my will.


It is worth funding your DAF up front when you have a high marginal tax rate and can get maximum benefit from the donations.  For most people this is their last few working years and/or the year they have major capital gains from stock or real estate sales.  We have made six figure DAF contributions the last several years but may not make more if we can get our taxable income under control.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2023, 09:23:32 AM »
@clifp end-of-life care is definitely something I don't want to overlook but the stash accumulation risk is pretty significantly for us. Our spending is low enough that if we really wanted to maximize accumulation we could pay off our mortgage and keep our income under 150% FPL, which would essentially mean we'd pay nothing for medical care as long as the ACA is around. Using a fairly conservative projected return of 5%, which is almost 2% below the historical average, we're left with potentially $20 million in today's dollars by age 100. RMDs go over 300kper year in that case. Unless we were trying to turn our stash into a generational family legacy investment type situation (think family office) then it's about as tax inefficient as possible.

RMDs only apply to tax-deferred accounts, so you would certainly do well to run simulations on transferring assets into Roth if this is your main worry.  This is more a matter of optimizing wealth / minimizing lifetime tax burden limiting the size of your 'too big stash'...

My worry is more making sure I'm doing the right things at the right times in my life to enjoy this big stash without ruining the planet or being too far out on the diminished utility curve.  With loads of practice, I've become much better at not sweating the little things (no more spouse or family friction over small amounts of waste or not optimizing).  I try to focus my energies on the real needle movers - maintaining a healthy risk/return balance (definitely not 100% equities anymore, especially with good yields on cash now available), spending on big ticket items, and taxes.

clifp

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Re: How do other FIREees approach drawdown of a "too big" stash?
« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2023, 06:02:26 PM »
@clifp end-of-life care is definitely something I don't want to overlook but the stash accumulation risk is pretty significantly for us. Our spending is low enough that if we really wanted to maximize accumulation we could pay off our mortgage and keep our income under 150% FPL, which would essentially mean we'd pay nothing for medical care as long as the ACA is around. Using a fairly conservative projected return of 5%, which is almost 2% below the historical average, we're left with potentially $20 million in today's dollars by age 100. RMDs go over 300kper year in that case. Unless we were trying to turn our stash into a generational family legacy investment type situation (think family office) then it's about as tax inefficient as possible.

 

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