Help! The Psychology/Emotional Process of Saying Goodbye to a Successful Career

[cheddarpie]

Hi FIRE folks, I'm hoping some of you might be able to give me a little hand-holding, or perhaps a punch in the face. I'm not sure what I need more right now! :)

I'm not FIREd yet, but getting close. I have had a successful and well-paying career as a lawyer for ~10 years. In general, I really like the work I do, but I get fed up with the people and politics (not unique to being a lawyer, but I feel like it's worse in this field than many).

I am not ready to retire yet (financially or emotionally), but I'm looking into job/career options outside of the legal realm. I am excited about this idea and it's what I thought I would probably do when I went to law school (as more of a save-the-world type, I didn't expect to practice law forever, if at all). Here's the kicker, though: shocker, I have an ego! I am comfortable being a lawyer because I'm really good at the work I do; my clients appreciate me and I like helping them; and I enjoy being a part of a "guild" -- I am active in the legal community/bar associations and enjoying being a part of this community, even if the people are sometimes nuts. My professional identity is very much wrapped up in "being a lawyer," and my identity as a whole is very connected to my job -- not exclusively, I have plenty of interests outside of work, but I don't mind that my work takes a leading role in my self identity. I'm proud of what I do, how hard I've worked to get here, and the successful path that I'm on.

But ... it still doesn't feel like the thing I want to do forever and I think I'm ready for a change, even though change feels SCARY.

How have those of you who've moved on from successful careers, either to FIRE or other major job/career shifts, dealt with this dynamic? Do you have any regrets? What was the mental/emotional transition like to go from being a "professional whatever" to something new? What's it like to go from being at the top of the ladder to the bottom rung in a new field?

Thanks for any advice, insights, or face punches. I need a kick in the pants!

[arebelspy]

Have you read the LivingaFI blog?  If not, he has a number of good posts on this topic you should check out.

[cheddarpie]

I haven't, but on first glance looks great! I will check it out more. Thanks for the tip. :)

Still interested in hearing others' experiences too ...

[Gone Fishing]

Why leave law?  Why not start your own practice, lose all the politics, and just take the choice business you want leaving yourself plenty of time to do other things? 

I often lament that my profession does not lend itself well to a 1-2 man shop.  To me, that is one of the greatest benefits of being a lawyer, CPA, doctor, dentist, insurance agent, etc.  Not many, but I have known a few people in these professions who open their own shop, do just enough work to keep the bills paid, and spend the rest of the time doing what they want, mostly traveling and playing golf!   

[cheddarpie]

Why leave law?  Why not start your own practice, lose all the politics, and just take the choice business you want leaving yourself plenty of time to do other things? 

Thanks, So Close! I've thought about this too ... the quick answer is FEAR. And I know that's not a very good answer. :) You are right that there are a lot of benefits to being solo.

Right now I'm considering a particular position that is outside of the legal realm (tangentially related to my area of practice though), and it could be a great opportunity but it would mean not practicing for a while. I could always open my own shop later, but I worry about stepping off the conveyer belt for a few years and it would be harder to start a new solo shop without existing clients. Again, the fear talking, but it's real. In many ways I feel like the closer to FI I get, the more risk averse I become, when maybe it should be the other way around?

[madamwitty]

I suspect I will have the same problem when I am ready to FIRE. I am great at what I do, and it is kind of scary to start over at the bottom. But that's kind of the appeal, too. I love learning and starting at the bottom gives you the chance to make huge improvements very quickly. For now, at my current level in my current job, improvements are pretty incremental. At least, without piling on huge amounts of stress!

[Exflyboy]

Yup I know exactly where your coming from. I'm a professional engineer with 30 years experience and I am (was) really good at what I did.

almost two years have passed now after RE and I have been doing quite a bit of PM work (with a very small amount of engineering) since. To be honest, yes it was tough. The PM's like to think they are engineers... not even close!.. but to be honest the ego has waned a bit over the time I have not been doing engineering.

I still have an ego but it means less to my sense of self these days.

[deborah]

When I retired I was sure I would feel this. It is wonderful to finish a project and see just what you have achieved, and how well it was done. To be part of a team achieving enormous things. To receive accolades from your peers. I was absolutely certain it would be a big thing I missed about work.

And you know? I've not missed it at all. Not even once. I put so much of myself into my career that I still (after six years) am stunned at how little I have missed it.

[Exflyboy]

When I retired I was sure I would feel this. It is wonderful to finish a project and see just what you have achieved, and how well it was done. To be part of a team achieving enormous things. To receive accolades from your peers. I was absolutely certain it would be a big thing I missed about work.

And you know? I've not missed it at all. Not even once. I put so much of myself into my career that I still (after six years) am stunned at how little I have missed it.

When I met you Deborah I was struck at how well you had re-invented yourself in retirement. it was clear to me I had not quite reached the same level of satisfaction.. of course part of that was maybe because I have not fully launched my way in yet..:)

[Freedomin5]

I am a few years away from FIRE, but I wonder if one goes through the grief process, because in a sense you are dealing with the loss of or putting to rest something that contributed a great deal to your sense of identity.

The five stages of grief are DABDA:

Denial - I can't believe I've FIREd. This is a bit surreal. It doesn't seem real. It just seems like I'm on vacation.
Anger - What the heck was I thinking?! How could I have given up such a great/stable/other positive adjective job?! Or this stage maybe more relevant if you didn't voluntarily FIRE.
Bargaining - Maybe I shouldn't have done this. Maybe I can have the best of both worlds somehow.
Depression - What was I thinking? I'm nothing without this job. I've lost my sense of identity.
Acceptance - This is where you start to build a new identity as a FIREd individual.

[boarder42]

Part of me thinks this is a generational thing.  Many millenials dont identify themselves with their careers in the way that former generations did. 

i work to live i dont live to work.  do i enjoy my job yes... but there are so many many many cool things you could be doing with your life besides sitting behind a desk or computer screen every day. 

Look at what ARS is doing.  He's slow traveling the world... something my parents just started doing and my dad is 66... i'm not waiting that long...

but in my field engineering, i can jump back in if i want to after i FIRE.  not sure how easy that is in your field.

[okits]

Well, you can't ethically engineer this, but if you (or someone you love) has a brush with death you will very quickly figure out what shit does not really matter.  #1 on my list was professional ego and the security of my familiar (but unsatisfying) job.  If you can really internalize that your time is finite, you will be motivated as hell to run towards something you really want, as opposed to clinging to the status quo.

I also realized it made me a narrow person, to simply cocoon myself in the "I'm a big fish in this pond" situation I had built up over the years.  If I'm really all that great I should be able to earn that respect and achievement elsewhere.  I should not be too proud of being successful once, I should be proud of doing what it takes to be successful, repeatedly.

And yes, I experience fear and doubt.  :)  But I've spent so much of my life letting those emotions over-influence me that I am determined to overcome them if my rational mind has decided the risk is acceptable.

[arebelspy]

Part of me thinks this is a generational thing.  Many millenials dont identify themselves with their careers in the way that former generations did. 

Interesting.  That might be true.

[Rubic]

Why leave law?  Why not start your own practice, lose all the politics, and just take the choice business you want leaving yourself plenty of time to do other things? 

Thanks, So Close! I've thought about this too ... the quick answer is FEAR. And I know that's not a very good answer. :) You are right that there are a lot of benefits to being solo.

Right now I'm considering a particular position that is outside of the legal realm (tangentially related to my area of practice though), and it could be a great opportunity but it would mean not practicing for a while. I could always open my own shop later, but I worry about stepping off the conveyer belt for a few years and it would be harder to start a new solo shop without existing clients. Again, the fear talking, but it's real. In many ways I feel like the closer to FI I get, the more risk averse I become, when maybe it should be the other way around?

Assuming you're going to FIRE anyway (and that RE is not the source of your fear), then what is the risk involved in starting your own practice?

A family friend is a retired attorney and handles some work for me and others from his home.  His biggest problem is turning down business so he isn't tied down with more than a few hours of work per week.

Warren Buffett's partner, Charlie Munger, practiced law before he became Berkshire Hathaway's co-chairman.  One of his observations was that it made sense to avoid all the crazies as clients.  The successful businessmen(*) didn't waste his time with frivolity and were therefore more pleasant and profitable to deal with.


(*) They were all men in his era.

[Mr. Green]

Well, you can't ethically engineer this, but if you (or someone you love) has a brush with death you will very quickly figure out what shit does not really matter.  #1 on my list was professional ego and the security of my familiar (but unsatisfying) job.  If you can really internalize that your time is finite, you will be motivated as hell to run towards something you really want, as opposed to clinging to the status quo.

I should put this somewhere and reread it periodically. For me it's so easy to think, "I'm only 32, I've got time. I should work another year for the money." I know there has to be a balance between reckless abandon and working for too long but I imagine most people here err on the side of working too long, despite how young many of us are, implying the opportunity to go back to work later. My dying self would probably appreciate my current self moving the needle a little more toward reckless abandon.

[cheddarpie]

Thanks, everyone! It's helpful to hear your experiences and know this is a normal part of the process!

As for this:

Well, you can't ethically engineer this, but if you (or someone you love) has a brush with death you will very quickly figure out what shit does not really matter.  #1 on my list was professional ego and the security of my familiar (but unsatisfying) job.  If you can really internalize that your time is finite, you will be motivated as hell to run towards something you really want, as opposed to clinging to the status quo.

Thanks so much for the reminder, this was the face punch I needed. :) It is so important to remember this message, and it's actually what got me started on my interest in MMM and FIRE and priorities in the first place. When I was 26, my roommate and good friend of 2 years died suddenly of a brain aneurysm a week before her 31st birthday. Learning at that age that someone you love, or someone yourself, could literally drop dead without a moment's notice was a tremendously powerful (and at the time, horrible) learning experience for me. While a terrible experience I would wish on no one, it shaped my late 20s and early 30s in what ended up being a very positive way -- strengthening my relationships with my friends and family; doing *better* than most of my peers in law school because I didn't give a fuck about grades or stressing out about school, just learning what I wanted to learn; and choosing a job path that was off the typical "go to the highest ranked firm and work as many hours as possible" path. That was over 10 years ago and, while I still think about my friend every day, I forget sometimes to take a step back and remember the bigger picture.

And as for this:

Assuming you're going to FIRE anyway (and that RE is not the source of your fear), then what is the risk involved in starting your own practice?

I like the idea of starting my own practice eventually when I'm closer to FIRE, but right now I'm considering a different, non-law salary job. I worry that stepping out of private practice for a few years will make it very hard to start my own practice later. I could pretty easily start a solo shop now, but I like the routine of going into an office most days and interacting with other people (just not the people I currently interact with!). I think it's the fear of closing the door on this option that's worrying me the most ... and I think I need to get over it and just take the leap, because maybe the new role would be something even better where I wouldn't even WANT to FIRE or start a solo shop (we can dream right?!).

Thank you all for your input!! I love this community so much.

[Cheddar Stacker]

Is part of this a fear of perception? Are you worried your Big Law colleagues will shun you for choosing the little shop, or the other career? That they will feel you've given up?

I'm certain when I leave Big CPA land there will be plenty of disdain, disbelief, rumors, and laughs shared at my expense if I don't sell them a solid reason for my departure. And I don't give a rats ass because I've learned to Tame my Mammoth.

If that's where you're at, I understand the reservations, but I think you need to be true to yourself.

[cheddarpie]

Is part of this a fear of perception? Are you worried your Big Law colleagues will shun you for choosing the little shop, or the other career? That they will feel you've given up?

I'm certain when I leave Big CPA land there will be plenty of disdain, disbelief, rumors, and laughs shared at my expense if I don't sell them a solid reason for my departure. And I don't give a rats ass because I've learned to Tame my Mammoth.

If that's where you're at, I understand the reservations, but I think you need to be true to yourself.

Good question, but no, not at all -- others' perception isn't really something I've ever cared about. I am at a small firm now (after being at a big but not Big Law firm in NYC). It's more about my own internal identity as "I'm an attorney" in my niche field (that I'm very proud of) and feeling 95% confident/competent in my professional field. I love learning new things and so in some ways starting a different career path is exciting, but it's also terrifying. I am ready for a change, but at the same time reluctant to close the door on a field that I enjoy and do well knowing it will be difficult to get back to where I was if the new gig turns out to be mistake.

[Daisy]

I'm not sure if this helps, but I read a comment (probably in this forum) that no one stays at a job their whole life. So if the company doesn't kick you out, at some point you do end up leaving on your own choice.

Think of your life in stages. You're not a toddler, in grade school, or high school, or college all of your life. Each of these has a pretty well defined end date. So can your time between college and retirement,  or alternate career.

Although I am borderline FIRE and somewhat OMYing, I  have set the age of 50 as the absolute latest time to FIRE. That's 3-4 years away. It gives me comfort when confronted with the BS at work at times. This work doesn't define me as a person, even though I am proud of the work I do and the products my company works on. I have plenty of accomplishments to look back on and say "job well done", but time to move on.

[Frugal D]

You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis.

You have to know, not fear, know that someday you're gonna die.

View your job/career as nothing more than a means - not an ends.

[Goldielocks]

I get this!

I am slowly transitioning myself away from professional (engineering) practice too, although not pulling the trigger yet.   What helps with this mental state for me:
1) Keeping my registration, even if I downgrade it to "non practicing", i can still attend the Branch meetings and work with the professional association.
2)  I volunteer for science related things in my community -- judging regional science fairs, mentoring new grads on how to find work, attending information sessions for people interested in engineering as a career.


Also, a huge shift in my mindset is having activities that I am very interested in / motivated in, outside of the professional work.   I did not have many side hobbies / volunteer businesses / group "fun" activities outside of work previously, but as I gain more, the work title is less important to me.  e.g., I no longer introduce myself as an engineer when I meet people.  Go figure.

Good Luck!  You will be surprised how quickly this feeling goes away.

[cheddarpie]

1) Keeping my registration, even if I downgrade it to "non practicing", i can still attend the Branch meetings and work with the professional association.
2)  I volunteer for science related things in my community -- judging regional science fairs, mentoring new grads on how to find work, attending information sessions for people interested in engineering as a career.

Thank you! Great suggestions. I think this will be important for me too -- by staying involved in the community, I won't feel as much like all the work I put into getting licensed, etc., was a waste, and by mentoring junior folks I can focus on and share some of the good things about the profession.

 

[Exflyboy]

I get this!

I am slowly transitioning myself away from professional (engineering) practice too, although not pulling the trigger yet.   What helps with this mental state for me:
1) Keeping my registration, even if I downgrade it to "non practicing", i can still attend the Branch meetings and work with the professional association.
2)  I volunteer for science related things in my community -- judging regional science fairs, mentoring new grads on how to find work, attending information sessions for people interested in engineering as a career.


Also, a huge shift in my mindset is having activities that I am very interested in / motivated in, outside of the professional work.   I did not have many side hobbies / volunteer businesses / group "fun" activities outside of work previously, but as I gain more, the work title is less important to me.  e.g., I no longer introduce myself as an engineer when I meet people.  Go figure.

Good Luck!  You will be surprised how quickly this feeling goes away.

Here in Oregon at least we can resign our PE license for up to 5 years, then take 30 hours of professional development, pay the fee and reinstate ourselves.

This is what I did back in May this year.

[Fireball]

I have a friend that practiced law for 30+ years and was nearing retirement age.  Like you, he liked what he did, he was good at it and had done well enough financially that he no longer had to worry about money. So, instead of retiring he decided to practice law part time, 3 days a week, for our local Legal Aid office. He got all of the things that really mattered most to him about his work, but also got to help people who normally couldn't afford legal services. Five years later, he retired for good and to this day most of the stories he tells about his career come from that five year period with Legal Aid. Wouldn't be for everyone, but just something to think about.

Ryan

[cheddarpie]

Thanks, Ryan, this is a great suggestion too, and something I can always keep in mind, wherever I end up going! :)

[FIREby35]

Hey Cheddarpie - just read the thread.

I think I know how you feel, I've been practicing 4.5 years and, by 35, I'll be at 8.5 and RE. I've been thinking about very similar things as you! I own my practice (Solo) and I keep thinking that if I shut down my firm after all the work and making it very profitable that I will regret it. But, it's the same thing - why keep filling the coffers? Identity? The mammoth? Who knows.

But, with being a lawyer you can always go back. If you stay involved in the community, someone might ask you to take one big, high profile case that, if you were practicing full-time you would have passed up. Maybe a case that has aligns with your political or social values but doesn't pay much. Who knows. But, being out of practice for two years won't "close doors" like you said. If you've been practicing 10 years, you know a lot and it will hold its value.

Good luck. I'm interested to hear what you decide so please update us periodically.

[NYCWife]

Hey Cheddarpie,

I've walked a mile in these shoes--I completely switched careers, moving to a job in a very different field.

For me, I was a high school English teacher. I loved my students and the feeling that I was making a difference, but I hated the politics (the LITERAL politics!). So, when an offer came along to become an editor at a major publishing house, I was just as torn as you were. Should I move to a career that I don't have formal schooling for/training with (though my English degree would help)? Should I leave a place where I know people and am respected in my field, and where I know what it takes to succeed? This actually required a physical move as well, which also weighed into my decision.

Now standing on the other side of that huge choice, I am glad I made the decision to try a new career. The best advice I got from my best friend was this:

Try it for a year. You have your teaching certificate. If you don't like it, you can always go back to teaching.

The first 6 months was really hard at the new gig. People were talking in a language I couldn't quite understand (all the new lingo of a new career). I didn't feel as successful as I had in my teaching job. It was intimidating, knowing I was creating a book that the whole nation would see. But I'm glad I did it. I actually wrote and edited a book, which is a pretty cool life experience. I grew in so many different ways, and so many other doors opened for me as a result of that job.

So, translating back out of my own experience, for you, I might say:

1. Think about a 1-year trial. There will always be lawyer jobs out there. If you don't like the new gig after a year, you can open your own practice or join another firm where you would be excited to work.

2. Be patient and kind to yourself if you decide to take the new job that is in a different field. It will take time to gain the level of expertise you currently enjoy as a lawyer (in my experience--having now switched career types four times, it has been taking me 6-8 months to have a strong sense of how to effectively do my job).

3. As you are making your decision, "wear" each choice fully for a couple of weeks. Talk about it with family/SO. See how it feels wearing each decision, and ask your family to tell you how you sound when you talk about each decision. They can help you gauge what seems to be driving/exciting you, sometimes more than you can yourself.

Good luck!

[G-dog]

I said 'good-bye' in July of this year - not sure if it was a successful career or not ;/

I think I overestimated or overstated that there was no going back (closed doors) as I was trying to mentally prepare for this. It is just part of the worst case analysis we all do, but it does tend to disguise the many options that are still out there for us now, a month from now, a year from now, etc.

You'll have to keep up some CLEs to keep options open, but it is possible that your new business role opens up even better options for a solo practice later.

You know what you need, trust yourself on this and future decisions.

[cheddarpie]

Thanks everyone! I think you are all right that I am overthinking/overestimating the doors closing thing. I also keep reminding myself that the whole point of wanting to try something new is that I might actually like that new thing BETTER and never look back. The fear is hard to overcome though! But it is a leap of faith and there is nothing I have faith in if not Mustachianism and my own resilience! :)

I will keep you all posted. Thanks again for all the encouragement!

[Ozstache]

When I retired I was sure I would feel this. It is wonderful to finish a project and see just what you have achieved, and how well it was done. To be part of a team achieving enormous things. To receive accolades from your peers. I was absolutely certain it would be a big thing I missed about work.

And you know? I've not missed it at all. Not even once. I put so much of myself into my career that I still (after six years) am stunned at how little I have missed it.

Ditto

[DoubleDown]

I also left a lucrative and prestigious career. I do not miss it at all, with the possible exception of some of the people and daily interaction with them. Having the freedom to do whatever I want every day far outweighs giving up any of that prestige or paychecks. Although there will always be fear/trepidation in leaving a successful career, I will say I reached a point where once the idea of retiring early got planted and was so enticing, there really was no looking back. I knew I was ready. If you're financially able and feel the job BS is too much, I say go for it. And with your legal degree and experience, I'd say you have a whole ton of opportunities you could always fall back on or pursue part time, at your leisure.

[soccerluvof4]

^+1 to what DoubleDown said. I was self-employed for nearly 30 years , was very good at what i did and could of kept the business going for another 10. I tried the transition thing and it was even more frustrating. I just decided to go for it as I know I can always find something. I have been to busy to even think about my old business and now worry about different things :-).  But being free of that decision" should I or shouldn't i" is the best feeling because there is only one direction now and hopefully a good one!