Fire on $750k invested?

[Exflyboy]

Retiring now,  I have anxiety about running out of money and being broke one day though- my childhood was like that.  That said, my job is becoming overwhelming so I don't think I have a choice but to Semi ER.  Are these feelings normal or am I being irrational?

Can't believe I missed this question..:)

Reason being is I am probably the most fearful person I know. Growing up up EVERYTHING was on credit, couch, TV, Car you name it. Parents had $5000 of CC debt but $8000 in the bank.. of course I went into major lecture mode when I found out.. But it took them 4 years to pay it off even though the interest rates were like 25% on the cards at the time.

Even worse, the family appartment (including utilities) came with my Dad's job... Then Dad's union called a strike and it I remember the "wher'e are we gonna live" question coming up! Geez it was awful, It eventually all worked out, my Dad made some very risky investments with his early retirement money... Amazingly it paid off and they bought a house for cash and now get their private and  Government pensions (this is in the UK).. So they are not rich but fairly comfortable.

Even today my Mum is still carrying a loan on their old car.. "Because you do don't you?'... ARRRRRGGGH!

But at least they will be OK.

So what effect did this have on me?... I worry about money all the time. We currently have about $1.5M plus the house is paid off and my UK pension this year plus the rental income we get pays our total living expenses.

My Wife still works and I work part time.

I STILL worry about not having enough money!

So, are your feeling normal?.... Yeah I think so..:)

1.5m in the bank with a paid off house and you still worry/stress about money? Hang up those anxiety cleats my friend and grab a drink :)

Yeah, easier said than done.. I know it intellectually, believing it is another matter..:)

[Cookie78]

I posted this same question today on earlyretirement.org and the overwhelming response was that I should get another FT job and work a few more years..   :(     

Surprised?

I've never been to earlyretirement.org, but I'm not surprised just based on what I've heard of it through this forum.
You should go to http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ and ask there too. I've also never been, but I can guess what they'll say.

[BPA]

I posted this same question today on earlyretirement.org and the overwhelming response was that I should get another FT job and work a few more years..   :(     

Surprised?

I've never been to earlyretirement.org, but I'm not surprised just based on what I've heard of it through this forum.
You should go to http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ and ask there too. I've also never been, but I can guess what they'll say.

^^^They are an interesting bunch.  I guess I shouldn't say "they" since I post there too.  I came to MMM through ERE, so the earlyretirement.org perspective amuses me. 

As you know, I've got a few fallback plans including working some less stressful part-time/seasonal job.  I kicked fear to the curb a long time ago. 

[Cassie]

I enjoy that site as well but they are more conservative then most on this forum. However, the other extreme is Jacob of ERE and they will say you are fine on such a tiny amount of $ that I think is ridiculous.

[kiwigirls]

What ages are your children?  I lot of FIREes haven't got children at home and this does make a difference.  Costs for children do increase as they get older, even without a lot of activities just the feeding and clothing of 5 adults is expensive.  If you have got younger children at home I would want to have more of a buffer in my stash as household expenses will rise.  Or expect to work PT to cover those costs.  On the other hand if your children are already teenagers your costs are probably peaking and will reduce over the coming years.   

[soccerluvof4]

It just proves today there is so much information out there pro or con to your case one can argue just about anything. Make a realistic plan, stick to it and be flexible at times if needed.

[Shooter_D]

ThriftyCanadian,

I've been following the thread and am looking forward to hearing more about your decision to RE. By Semi-RE are you still going to be working part-time with your previous employer, or are you going to look for other, less-stressful work? I imagine myself someday getting a part-time job at a Running Room or maybe a movie theatre (SO and I are suckers for movies). FIRE is a few years away for me though... Living vicariously through folks like you!

[Shooter_D]

Well, I was actually laid off, then had a false start with another company (not a good fit at all, so I walked away)   Looks like I am semi retired by choice, and, not by choice.  LOL

Fun and easy part time work, kinda like what you mentioned, is in the cards.  Another option - is perhaps retraining through a one or two year program in a field that I would enjoy and find rewarding. 

I won't lie, this recent job turmoil has been a bit tough more mentally than anything. I have gone 20 years relatively unscathed.  So, I am spending time right looking after myself until I determine next steps.   I feel fortunate to have this financial cushion - which ultimately has given me choices.

Better to be laid off somewhat by choice and have the freedom of a financial cushion. I hope you find something that suits you fine, and in the mean time make the best of your situation!

[Faraday]

Well, I was actually laid off, then had a false start with another company (not a good fit at all, so I walked away)   Looks like I am semi retired by choice, and, not by choice.  LOL
...
I won't lie, this recent job turmoil has been a bit tough more mentally than anything. I have gone 20 years relatively unscathed.  So, I am spending time right looking after myself until I determine next steps.   I feel fortunate to have this financial cushion - which ultimately has given me choices.

It's tough to be laid off if it's never happened to you before, especially if it happens after 20 years in a field. I work in the IT field/industry and I've been through at least two dozen layoffs in my 30-some year career. About half of the layoffs were from the employer going belly-up. another 25% were me witnessing others getting laid off, and another 25% were me getting whacked. (so I don't know what happened at the company after that)

Layoffs are a numbers game. Whatever justification conjured up by upper management is only that - justification. They generally tend to try to minimize risk in who/how they layoff, being terrified of legal action.

I have a process if I ever happened to get laid off: I as for as much office supplies as I can carry out the door. Then I'm gone...forever. I don't have time to worry about the past, I've got a future to work on. So I usually hit the bricks big-time and have good results finding other work.

BTW: Linked-In is AWESOME. You need to keep your network of contacts "warmed up and primed" at all times, not just when you are laid off. And when you are laid off, you are looking for INFORMATION, not for "A JOB". You want to find out what companies are hot, and what companies are not, because as you WELL KNOW, it's important to identify the duds out there and NOT go to work for them, as well as the winners you want to go to work for.....

Two ESSENTIAL websites for the job hunter:

1) indeed.com
2) glassdoor.com

Both are awesomely awesome.

[soccerluvof4]

...I do like the idea of selling a house in a HCOL area and downsizing to a LCOL area. This is something I plan to do at some point - sell the paid off house in coastal SoCal and move somewhere much cheaper...

Are you still thinking coastal Oregon for your LCOL area or have some other locations caught your eye?

As usual I have no idea :-)! I don't think coastal Oregon would be a choice for me as most towns are too small but I do like the I-5 corridor towns a lot but too hot in summer. I think western Washington on the Puget Sound (Bellingham for instance) would be great but that rain - YIKES! Probably will end up no where permanently once I sell my house and just to the rental thing for a few months in different places until I find an ideal location.

Rain is an understatement! I live in Bremerton back in my Navy days and I dont think there was a day that it wasnt dreary, wet ...sucked! Liked the town and puget sound but that weather is depressing

[arebelspy]

Rain is an understatement! I live in Bremerton back in my Navy days and I dont think there was a day that it wasnt dreary, wet ...sucked! Liked the town and puget sound but that weather is depressing

Yup!  I grew up just north of Seattle, and after 18 years, the rain was just too much for me.  Headed to Cali for college, then Nevada after.  Warmth is just nice.

I love the PNW, it's beautiful and the people are great, but the weather, ugh.

I do want to check out eastern Oregon, I've heard they get less rain there.

[CanuckExpat]

ETA: this is actually one of my big concerns - selling my house and hating any new location and not being able to move back with the same super low cost situation I currently have. Relocation fails seem to be a common problem for many who move out of Calif

I don't want to derail thread, but I'd like to hear about more about this. Another thread, just continue derailing this one? :)

[arebelspy]

ETA: this is actually one of my big concerns - selling my house and hating any new location and not being able to move back with the same super low cost situation I currently have. Relocation fails seem to be a common problem for many who move out of Calif

I don't want to derail thread, but I'd like to hear about more about this. Another thread, just continue derailing this one? :)

I had the same concern about relocating out of the U.S. for awhile.

As I've posted elsewhere, I've seen a lot of examples of geographic arbitrage go wrong, where people discover they can live in Thailand for ~10k USD/yr or less, build their internet business to support that, move there, and then get "stuck"--they can't afford to move back to the U.S., and feel trapped there.

I always wanted to live overseas in FIRE, but have enough of a stache that the option to come back wasn't even a question.  In other words, even if we could FIRE cheaply overseas, we'd FIRE later, with more, so it wasn't our only option.

This would be similar to what Sparty's talking about: if you save just enough to relocate out of your high COL area for FIRE, but then decide you don't like that area as much, you may not have the means to go back (or would need to make income somehow, which may not be in your plans).

More specifically, if you have a nice living arrangement set up (small house you own outright that, if you sell, might be hard to purchase the equivalent later, or a landlord who's had you for years and never raises the rent cause you're a good tenant, so you're way under market, so if you came back, rent would be much higher, or whatever), and move away from that nice living arrangement, coming back might be difficult due to higher expenses in that category.

It's worth considering the various living arrangements you might have in FIRE, not just your primary plan.

[Exflyboy]

 I was just watching a video about these ex-pat homeless guys who are living on the beach in Thailand, they are tolerated by the Thai Government because they can't afford to renew their visas.

Basically they got hopped up on cheap booze and an endless line of prostitues, blew all their money and now they are bums with no way to get back home.

Apparently its an increasing problem.

Yipes!

[CanuckExpat]

OK I started a "Relocation Fails" thread in the ask a mustashian forum so we don't hijack this thread. Copy your posts over there if you'd like.

Thanks! Here is the link for those interested: Relocation fails?

[FernFree]

$750K is my number!  If all goes well I'll be there in 12-18 months.  I may not make it that long though -- now that I know about FI/RE, I can hardly stand my job. 

I don't have my expenses down to that level yet, but I figure once I have all that free time I'll have plenty of time to figure out how to cut costs further.  If I later decide I can't go that low, I'll just get another job, start a business, invest in some rentals, or work part-time.  At least I'll have had a good break 6-12 months to get my head back on straight after 18 soul-sucking years in a corporate cube.

Am I crazy?  I'm getting so close to just saying "f* it" and walking out every day!! lol 

[BlueHouse]

$750K is my number!  If all goes well I'll be there in 12-18 months.  I may not make it that long though -- now that I know about FI/RE, I can hardly stand my job. 

I don't have my expenses down to that level yet, but I figure once I have all that free time I'll have plenty of time to figure out how to cut costs further.  If I later decide I can't go that low, I'll just get another job, start a business, invest in some rentals, or work part-time.  At least I'll have had a good break 6-12 months to get my head back on straight after 18 soul-sucking years in a corporate cube.

Am I crazy?  I'm getting so close to just saying "f* it" and walking out every day!! lol

I think it's crazy if you're not absolutely sure.  You're in the age when discrimination is real, so "just get another job" may not be possible.   
I feel the same way you do, but I'm not to my over-inflated number yet and until I'm sure I can make it on less, I'm chicken to leave my job because I think it will be very hard to find another comparable. 

[Shane]

$750K is my number!  If all goes well I'll be there in 12-18 months.  I may not make it that long though -- now that I know about FI/RE, I can hardly stand my job. 

I don't have my expenses down to that level yet, but I figure once I have all that free time I'll have plenty of time to figure out how to cut costs further.  If I later decide I can't go that low, I'll just get another job, start a business, invest in some rentals, or work part-time.  At least I'll have had a good break 6-12 months to get my head back on straight after 18 soul-sucking years in a corporate cube.

Am I crazy?  I'm getting so close to just saying "f* it" and walking out every day!! lol

I think it's crazy if you're not absolutely sure.  You're in the age when discrimination is real, so "just get another job" may not be possible.   
I feel the same way you do, but I'm not to my over-inflated number yet and until I'm sure I can make it on less, I'm chicken to leave my job because I think it will be very hard to find another comparable.

The thing is, it's not necessary to find a retirement job that pays as much as the job you had that allowed you to save up $750K+ in the first place. An early retiree with a paid off house and $750K invested who found herself in a situation where, because of market conditions, she was reluctant to withdraw the full 4% or $30K/year from her investments would only need to temporarily earn ~$15K/year in order to be absolutely certain that her portfolio would never be depleted. I'm pretty sure anyone who was able to save $750K, would also be able to figure out a way to earn $15K/year, which doesn't necessarily mean going back to work at a job. We have friends who rent out rooms in their houses on Airbnb. We also know several people who choose to work "fun" jobs in retirement as tour guides, dive masters, aquarium fish collectors, farmers, bee keepers, etc.

[physdude]

I am looking to do something similar along with my wife with about $800k invested and $200k in retirement accounts next year. I am not in the US and there is no concept of SS where I live so there will be no safety net whatsoever.

The key to the transition is that I am planning to retire in Malaysia where the CoL is quite low (and, having been there many times before, I am -very- comfortable with the culture and lifestyle there though that is a matter of personal preference).
A rough budget would be as follows :
US$400-$500/month for a good 2-3 bedroom apt in downtown KL
US$200-$250/month for utilities including cell phone plans, internet, electricity, water, gas etc
US$150/month for health insurance
US$150/month for car insurance and gas (though we plan to use public transport outside of peak hours since it is decent and cheap)
Eating out - It only costs US$2-$3 for a very good meal in KL (definitely the cheapest food I have seen anywhere in the world) so it doesn't make any sense to eat in - US$300/month
Capital costs of car, clothes etc. - US$300 - US$400/month
Local 3 day vacations in excellent (not fancy but more than comfortable) beach resorts can be had for $200-$300 (transport + moderate hotel + food) and one a month seems like a good plan since Malaysia has some of the best beaches in the world
This comes to about $2k a month for a fairly comfortable lifestyle.
Assuming a safe withdrawal rate of $3k a month, 2-3 overseas vacations per year should also be easily achievable especially since Kuala Lumpur has a lot of budget flights. This will, of course, be the first to go if market conditions deteriorate.

These costs can be easily cut down if needed as rent can be halved by moving to the suburbs (or smaller towns) so there is a lot of leeway left.

[Shane]

I am looking to do something similar along with my wife with about $800k invested and $200k in retirement accounts next year. I am not in the US and there is no concept of SS where I live so there will be no safety net whatsoever.

The key to the transition is that I am planning to retire in Malaysia where the CoL is quite low (and, having been there many times before, I am -very- comfortable with the culture and lifestyle there though that is a matter of personal preference).
A rough budget would be as follows :
US$400-$500/month for a good 2-3 bedroom apt in downtown KL
US$200-$250/month for utilities including cell phone plans, internet, electricity, water, gas etc
US$150/month for health insurance
US$150/month for car insurance and gas (though we plan to use public transport outside of peak hours since it is decent and cheap)
Eating out - It only costs US$2-$3 for a very good meal in KL (definitely the cheapest food I have seen anywhere in the world) so it doesn't make any sense to eat in - US$300/month
Capital costs of car, clothes etc. - US$300 - US$400/month
Local 3 day vacations in excellent (not fancy but more than comfortable) beach resorts can be had for $200-$300 (transport + moderate hotel + food) and one a month seems like a good plan since Malaysia has some of the best beaches in the world
This comes to about $2k a month for a fairly comfortable lifestyle.
Assuming a safe withdrawal rate of $3k a month, 2-3 overseas vacations per year should also be easily achievable especially since Kuala Lumpur has a lot of budget flights. This will, of course, be the first to go if market conditions deteriorate.

These costs can be easily cut down if needed as rent can be halved by moving to the suburbs (or smaller towns) so there is a lot of leeway left.

Thanks for the rundown on COL in KL. Malaysia is a place we're planning to visit sometime in the near future and would consider settling for a year or more if it seems like a good fit for our family.

There's a lot of stuff on the web about expats living in Penang, Malaysia. Photos look nice. Curious if you've ever been there and how you liked it? What made you decide on retiring in KL instead of some other part of the country?

Also, what kind of visa do you plan on getting and how hard is it to get one?

[BlueHouse]

$750K is my number!  If all goes well I'll be there in 12-18 months.  I may not make it that long though -- now that I know about FI/RE, I can hardly stand my job. 

I don't have my expenses down to that level yet, but I figure once I have all that free time I'll have plenty of time to figure out how to cut costs further.  If I later decide I can't go that low, I'll just get another job, start a business, invest in some rentals, or work part-time.  At least I'll have had a good break 6-12 months to get my head back on straight after 18 soul-sucking years in a corporate cube.

Am I crazy?  I'm getting so close to just saying "f* it" and walking out every day!! lol

I think it's crazy if you're not absolutely sure.  You're in the age when discrimination is real, so "just get another job" may not be possible.   
I feel the same way you do, but I'm not to my over-inflated number yet and until I'm sure I can make it on less, I'm chicken to leave my job because I think it will be very hard to find another comparable.

The thing is, it's not necessary to find a retirement job that pays as much as the job you had that allowed you to save up $750K+ in the first place. An early retiree with a paid off house and $750K invested who found herself in a situation where, because of market conditions, she was reluctant to withdraw the full 4% or $30K/year from her investments would only need to temporarily earn ~$15K/year in order to be absolutely certain that her portfolio would never be depleted. I'm pretty sure anyone who was able to save $750K, would also be able to figure out a way to earn $15K/year, which doesn't necessarily mean going back to work at a job. We have friends who rent out rooms in their houses on Airbnb. We also know several people who choose to work "fun" jobs in retirement as tour guides, dive masters, aquarium fish collectors, farmers, bee keepers, etc.

Great point.  I had a min-retirement about 10 years ago and starting working with my body instead of my mind.  It was hard work and ultimately I decided to work fewer years for more pay.  I am not sure I could do something like that again, so your comment about renting out rooms is a good one.  I am in an area that would make this possible too (although not AirBnB-style)

[FernFree]

$750K is my number!  If all goes well I'll be there in 12-18 months.  I may not make it that long though -- now that I know about FI/RE, I can hardly stand my job. 

I don't have my expenses down to that level yet, but I figure once I have all that free time I'll have plenty of time to figure out how to cut costs further.  If I later decide I can't go that low, I'll just get another job, start a business, invest in some rentals, or work part-time.  At least I'll have had a good break 6-12 months to get my head back on straight after 18 soul-sucking years in a corporate cube.

Am I crazy?  I'm getting so close to just saying "f* it" and walking out every day!! lol

I think it's crazy if you're not absolutely sure.  You're in the age when discrimination is real, so "just get another job" may not be possible.   
I feel the same way you do, but I'm not to my over-inflated number yet and until I'm sure I can make it on less, I'm chicken to leave my job because I think it will be very hard to find another comparable.

The thing is, it's not necessary to find a retirement job that pays as much as the job you had that allowed you to save up $750K+ in the first place. An early retiree with a paid off house and $750K invested who found herself in a situation where, because of market conditions, she was reluctant to withdraw the full 4% or $30K/year from her investments would only need to temporarily earn ~$15K/year in order to be absolutely certain that her portfolio would never be depleted. I'm pretty sure anyone who was able to save $750K, would also be able to figure out a way to earn $15K/year, which doesn't necessarily mean going back to work at a job. We have friends who rent out rooms in their houses on Airbnb. We also know several people who choose to work "fun" jobs in retirement as tour guides, dive masters, aquarium fish collectors, farmers, bee keepers, etc.

Yeah, that's why I'm not that nervous about it.  If 4% of 750K isn't enough, I can find any job for $10K - $50K depending on what I'm looking for and how many hours I want to work and wouldn't have to worry about depleting my stache.  It is a real risk though that at my age (47) and being female, I may not be able to ever replace my current 6 figure job if I left it.  A gap in resume work history after a year or two would make that even more of a risk.  Have to make certain I'm done working that level of job before I pull the trigger.  However, hiring managers would love an adventure tale like "I took a break to hike the Appalachian Trail, my lifelong dream." Sells much better than "I got so sick of the shit around here I couldn't stand it anymore.  Been couch surfing for a couple of years and now I need cash."  lol

After spending a lot of time reading about FI/RE, I value my time and freedom so much more than the money.  I could live in a hut in a third world country and do whatever I want all the time.  Sounds much better than 20 more years in my cube.

My daughter is a junior in high school and is trying to graduate in 3 years instead of the usual 4, so I'm trying to hold on for just 1 more year and by then I should pass the $750K mark.  My company is also in the middle of a huge merger and may be offering severance packages for voluntary lay-offs, which could push me past $750K early.  Crossing my fingers that that opportunity comes up and I might be FI/RE with very short notice.  Getting very excited for my freedom!!! 

[physdude]

I am looking to do something similar along with my wife with about $800k invested and $200k in retirement accounts next year. I am not in the US and there is no concept of SS where I live so there will be no safety net whatsoever.

The key to the transition is that I am planning to retire in Malaysia where the CoL is quite low (and, having been there many times before, I am -very- comfortable with the culture and lifestyle there though that is a matter of personal preference).
A rough budget would be as follows :
US$400-$500/month for a good 2-3 bedroom apt in downtown KL
US$200-$250/month for utilities including cell phone plans, internet, electricity, water, gas etc
US$150/month for health insurance
US$150/month for car insurance and gas (though we plan to use public transport outside of peak hours since it is decent and cheap)
Eating out - It only costs US$2-$3 for a very good meal in KL (definitely the cheapest food I have seen anywhere in the world) so it doesn't make any sense to eat in - US$300/month
Capital costs of car, clothes etc. - US$300 - US$400/month
Local 3 day vacations in excellent (not fancy but more than comfortable) beach resorts can be had for $200-$300 (transport + moderate hotel + food) and one a month seems like a good plan since Malaysia has some of the best beaches in the world
This comes to about $2k a month for a fairly comfortable lifestyle.
Assuming a safe withdrawal rate of $3k a month, 2-3 overseas vacations per year should also be easily achievable especially since Kuala Lumpur has a lot of budget flights. This will, of course, be the first to go if market conditions deteriorate.

These costs can be easily cut down if needed as rent can be halved by moving to the suburbs (or smaller towns) so there is a lot of leeway left.

Thanks for the rundown on COL in KL. Malaysia is a place we're planning to visit sometime in the near future and would consider settling for a year or more if it seems like a good fit for our family.

There's a lot of stuff on the web about expats living in Penang, Malaysia. Photos look nice. Curious if you've ever been there and how you liked it? What made you decide on retiring in KL instead of some other part of the country?

Also, what kind of visa do you plan on getting and how hard is it to get one?

(The below are, of course, my opinions only and are subjective.)
I chose Malaysia as I found it inexpensive, extremely cosmpolitan and easy-going culturally (despite it being Islamic, beer is freely available everywhere and I have even seen ladies bathing topless in Langkawi without the locals batting an eyelid) and as it has an extremely attractive tax structure for non-working foreigners (basically no tax at all!). While it is very easy going, it should be noted that it is not a place that people uncomfortable with Islam will like. I myself have no issues with Islam at all even though I am agnostic.

Penang is quite nice too and has a somewhat different feel due to the different cultural mix (more Chinese and less Malay). The environment is also a bit different as it is an island and there are beaches but not quite of the quality of the more popular Malaysian resorts. It has also become a bit more expensive than KL though still rather cheap compared to the US. I like KL a bit better because it is very central, anywhere in West Malaysia being easily accessible from it, and because of its great and cheap south Indian food. On the downside, there isn't that much nature in KL unless one drives or takes the train for at least an hour or two out into the countryside.

I have been to Malaysia many times and my parents worked there for a few years. I have also lived in Singapore for ten years and the basic culture in Singapore is somewhat similar to Malaysia though Singapore is a lot more fast paced, efficient, safe and crowded and much less corrupt than Malaysia. Singapore has become very expensive for foreigners (locals get heavily subsidized housing) and a lot less immigrant friendly in the last few years but is still an amazing place to live if you are very rich or if you are a local.

The only downside in Malaysia seems to be safety but I have never myself experienced any issues on that front. My Malaysian friends have specifically advised to avoid living in the luxurious suburban houses (similar to McMansions) which look like an amazing deal on the surface as burglaries are quite common.

I have obtained the MM2H retirement visa which is relatively straightforward if rather involved to get (there are many bureaucratic steps to show that you have some basic level of assets, no criminal convictions etc. and the overall process takes several months). The visa fees for both of us put us back about a grand and you have to be physically present in Malaysia to complete the last few steps which takes a week or so.

[Shane]

After spending a lot of time reading about FI/RE, I value my time and freedom so much more than the money.  I could live in a hut in a third world country and do whatever I want all the time.  Sounds much better than 20 more years in my cube.

My daughter is a junior in high school and is trying to graduate in 3 years instead of the usual 4, so I'm trying to hold on for just 1 more year and by then I should pass the $750K mark.  My company is also in the middle of a huge merger and may be offering severance packages for voluntary lay-offs, which could push me past $750K early.  Crossing my fingers that that opportunity comes up and I might be FI/RE with very short notice.  Getting very excited for my freedom!!!

Maya Frost's book: The New Global Student: Skip the SAT, Save Thousands on Tuition, and Get a Truly International Education gives a pretty good overview of the alternative options available to students and parents who are willing to think outside the box. The author is real big on exchanges for kids. She says the Rotary exchange program is great and pretty inexpensive.

Used on Amazon, the book only costs a few cents, I think, plus shipping. It's not for everyone, but it sounds like you may be open to alternative lifestyle choices. How about your daughter? Do you think she'd be willing to join you on an international adventure?

Here's a quote from the write up for the book on Amazon:

Good-bye, Old School. Hello, Bold School!

In 2005, Maya Frost and her husband sold everything and left their suburban American lifestyle behind in order to have an adventure abroad. The tricky part: they had to shepherd their four teenage daughters through high school and into college. This hilarious and conspiratorial how-to handbook describes the affordable, accessible, and stunningly advantageous options they stumbled upon that any American student can leverage to get an outrageously relevant global education.

Ready to ditch the drama of the traditional hypercompetitive SAT/AP/GPA path? Meet the bold American students who are catapulting into the global economy at twenty with a red-hot college diploma, sizzling 21st-century skills, a blazing sense of direction–and no debt.

You’ll discover:
• the one thing preventing your student from blasting forward
• why Advanced Placement isn’t so advanced
• why international programs fail to provide a truly global education
• the most critical time for your student to study abroad
• the best exchange program in the world ($3,000 or less per year)
• the strategic way to fast-forward through high school
• how to maximize a family sabbatical
• how to live the life of your dreams abroad–and save thousands for college

Packed with myth-busting facts, laughable loopholes, insider insights, astonishing success stories, and poignant tales from the Frost daughters themselves, this inspiring romp is guaranteed to get you cheering.

[Shane]

(The below are, of course, my opinions only and are subjective.)
I chose Malaysia as I found it inexpensive, extremely cosmpolitan and easy-going culturally (despite it being Islamic, beer is freely available everywhere and I have even seen ladies bathing topless in Langkawi without the locals batting an eyelid) and as it has an extremely attractive tax structure for non-working foreigners (basically no tax at all!). While it is very easy going, it should be noted that it is not a place that people uncomfortable with Islam will like. I myself have no issues with Islam at all even though I am agnostic.

Penang is quite nice too and has a somewhat different feel due to the different cultural mix (more Chinese and less Malay). The environment is also a bit different as it is an island and there are beaches but not quite of the quality of the more popular Malaysian resorts. It has also become a bit more expensive than KL though still rather cheap compared to the US. I like KL a bit better because it is very central, anywhere in West Malaysia being easily accessible from it, and because of its great and cheap south Indian food. On the downside, there isn't that much nature in KL unless one drives or takes the train for at least an hour or two out into the countryside.

I have been to Malaysia many times and my parents worked there for a few years. I have also lived in Singapore for ten years and the basic culture in Singapore is somewhat similar to Malaysia though Singapore is a lot more fast paced, efficient, safe and crowded and much less corrupt than Malaysia. Singapore has become very expensive for foreigners (locals get heavily subsidized housing) and a lot less immigrant friendly in the last few years but is still an amazing place to live if you are very rich or if you are a local.

The only downside in Malaysia seems to be safety but I have never myself experienced any issues on that front. My Malaysian friends have specifically advised to avoid living in the luxurious suburban houses (similar to McMansions) which look like an amazing deal on the surface as burglaries are quite common.

I have obtained the MM2H retirement visa which is relatively straightforward if rather involved to get (there are many bureaucratic steps to show that you have some basic level of assets, no criminal convictions etc. and the overall process takes several months). The visa fees for both of us put us back about a grand and you have to be physically present in Malaysia to complete the last few steps which takes a week or so.

Thanks for the details Physdude.

The lower COL as well as the quality of life for an expat in Malaysia is something that is interesting to many members of this board.

I hope you'll keep us updated, periodically, on how you like living in KL full time and what your life is like there as an early retiree.

[Ozlady]

A lot of similarities with Physdude...

DH and i worked in Singapore for many years and i just came back from Penang...we are thinking of establishing a base in South East Asia and hoping to do 4-2-4-2 ie 4 months in Australia and 2 months in Singapore/Malaysia...

We have many good Singaporean friends and used to have an apartment in Singapore (sold it alas!)

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Physdude: would like to hear more about your plans in KL; do you have many friends there? how do you plan to spend your retirement ?

[arebelspy]

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Damn... there's an age limit on it.  :(

Gotta be 50.  At least you can apply as younger, but you need a sponsor then (Malaysia imposes an age guideline of fifty years, however, applicants with an age below fifty years can apply but must provide a reference from a sponsor that lives in Malaysia as a citizen or permanent resident in order to qualify for the visa.).

Belize's retirement visa is age 45, but there's no way to apply younger.

The income requirements for either country are no problem, but the age thing... sigh.  :)

[Ozlady]

Hi ARS

Firstly correct me if i am wrong but you guys are travelling the world ; so why would you  want to "retire" to Malaysia?

Secondly if you really want to, have you considered teaching in the international schools in Malaysia and getting a sponsor that way?  The Malaysians are such easy going people...after a few years of friendships with the locals, you never know ...you may get sponsorship that way:))

(ah...no more winters ....)

[arebelspy]

Hi ARS

Firstly correct me if i am wrong but you guys are travelling the world ; so why would you  want to "retire" to Malaysia?

We are, for now.

We're also on the lookout for places we may want to settle down. We'll be in Malaysia the whole month of September. :)

Secondly if you really want to, have you considered teaching in the international schools in Malaysia and getting a sponsor that way?  The Malaysians are such easy going people...after a few years of friendships with the locals, you never know ...you may get sponsorship that way:))

That would require getting a job though. Ugh. ;)

In all seriousness, if we do decide to go back to work (either for enjoyment or if we need funds), international teaching is high on our list of things to do.

[physdude]

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Damn... there's an age limit on it.  :(

Gotta be 50.  At least you can apply as younger, but you need a sponsor then (Malaysia imposes an age guideline of fifty years, however, applicants with an age below fifty years can apply but must provide a reference from a sponsor that lives in Malaysia as a citizen or permanent resident in order to qualify for the visa.).

Belize's retirement visa is age 45, but there's no way to apply younger.

The income requirements for either country are no problem, but the age thing... sigh.  :)

I am well below 50 so that can't be right unless the rules have changed. IIRC, the current income and net worth requirements are more stringent for those under 50 but still pretty small by Moustachian standards (the income part is tricky though because it means you must apply -before- you retire if you are not having SS or a pension).

[physdude]

A lot of similarities with Physdude...

DH and i worked in Singapore for many years and i just came back from Penang...we are thinking of establishing a base in South East Asia and hoping to do 4-2-4-2 ie 4 months in Australia and 2 months in Singapore/Malaysia...

We have many good Singaporean friends and used to have an apartment in Singapore (sold it alas!)

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Physdude: would like to hear more about your plans in KL; do you have many friends there? how do you plan to spend your retirement ?

I have a couple of old classmates in KL and plan to make more friends once I am there. I actually have way more friends in Singapore (some from KL even) but Singapore is not on the cards  for me due both to the costs and lack of any visa option (I had PR for a few years a long time ago and could have probably converted it to citizenship in those days but was too young and naive at that point to understand its value - easily the biggest regret of my life).

I plan to read, hike, travel, play bridge and learn to drive (never felt the need before but does seem useful in Malaysia - how Moustachian is that :) in the beginning. I like learning a lot and with the availability of online courses that can keep me occupied for a long time after that.

[arebelspy]

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Damn... there's an age limit on it.  :(

Gotta be 50.  At least you can apply as younger, but you need a sponsor then (Malaysia imposes an age guideline of fifty years, however, applicants with an age below fifty years can apply but must provide a reference from a sponsor that lives in Malaysia as a citizen or permanent resident in order to qualify for the visa.).

Belize's retirement visa is age 45, but there's no way to apply younger.

The income requirements for either country are no problem, but the age thing... sigh.  :)

I am well below 50 so that can't be right unless the rules have changed. IIRC, the current income and net worth requirements are more stringent for those under 50 but still pretty small by Moustachian standards (the income part is tricky though because it means you must apply -before- you retire if you are not having SS or a pension).

You are under 50 and got the retirement visa without a sponsor?

Apparently Google lied to me, if that is the case...

[Ozlady]

More importantly Physdude is 40 and retired?? would love to hear the story!

[physdude]

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Damn... there's an age limit on it.  :(

Gotta be 50.  At least you can apply as younger, but you need a sponsor then (Malaysia imposes an age guideline of fifty years, however, applicants with an age below fifty years can apply but must provide a reference from a sponsor that lives in Malaysia as a citizen or permanent resident in order to qualify for the visa.).

Belize's retirement visa is age 45, but there's no way to apply younger.

The income requirements for either country are no problem, but the age thing... sigh.  :)

I am well below 50 so that can't be right unless the rules have changed. IIRC, the current income and net worth requirements are more stringent for those under 50 but still pretty small by Moustachian standards (the income part is tricky though because it means you must apply -before- you retire if you are not having SS or a pension).

You are under 50 and got the retirement visa without a sponsor?

Apparently Google lied to me, if that is the case...

The govt website on the terms and conditions is at http://www.mm2h.gov.my/index.php/en/home/programme/terms-conditions and looks to be the same as when I applied. Anyone (below or above 50) can choose to apply through an agent for a fee (who will act as a local sponsor) or directly without any sponsor by putting up a RM 200-2,000 (~US$50-US$500) security bond with the amount depending on nationality. The agent's fees are much higher than the bond so direct application makes much more sense if you can put up with a bit of bureaucracy especially since most of the legwork will be in your country of residence and will not be done via the agent. Most of the effort in our case was getting the the police clearance certificates and in convincing the brokerages to release information about your accounts directly to MM2H (which they didn't do initially after receiving the direct request from MM2H despite my authorization due to privacy and security concerns). Interestingly, I found the MM2H office to be surprisingly efficient and pleasant to deal which I didn't really expect due to the usual reputation of Malaysian govt offices. There are also web forums with excellent tips on going through the process which were very helpful for us.

[FernFree]

After spending a lot of time reading about FI/RE, I value my time and freedom so much more than the money.  I could live in a hut in a third world country and do whatever I want all the time.  Sounds much better than 20 more years in my cube.

My daughter is a junior in high school and is trying to graduate in 3 years instead of the usual 4, so I'm trying to hold on for just 1 more year and by then I should pass the $750K mark.  My company is also in the middle of a huge merger and may be offering severance packages for voluntary lay-offs, which could push me past $750K early.  Crossing my fingers that that opportunity comes up and I might be FI/RE with very short notice.  Getting very excited for my freedom!!!

Maya Frost's book: The New Global Student: Skip the SAT, Save Thousands on Tuition, and Get a Truly International Education gives a pretty good overview of the alternative options available to students and parents who are willing to think outside the box. The author is real big on exchanges for kids. She says the Rotary exchange program is great and pretty inexpensive.

Used on Amazon, the book only costs a few cents, I think, plus shipping. It's not for everyone, but it sounds like you may be open to alternative lifestyle choices. How about your daughter? Do you think she'd be willing to join you on an international adventure?

Thanks for the info, Shane!  We have talked about and looked at some alternatives, mainly homeschooling, but I still haven't hit my $750K number and she is not motivated at all at this point.  There are some really exciting self-directed opportunities available for alternative education, but when the learner doesn't want to do it, it all falls apart.  I feel like she is a victim of the standardized testing regime that she's grown up under--you can only fill in so many bubble test score sheets before it kills all interest in learning.  I have some friends who do unschooling and their kid's lives are so exciting and they seem so happy.  Sure wish I would have found the ERE/MMM info about 10 years ago.  :)

[Ozlady]

Malaysia's retirement visa is really good and not too difficult to get...but for the friendships and network we have in Singapore, Malaysia would be a first choice for us...

Damn... there's an age limit on it.  :(

Gotta be 50.  At least you can apply as younger, but you need a sponsor then (Malaysia imposes an age guideline of fifty years, however, applicants with an age below fifty years can apply but must provide a reference from a sponsor that lives in Malaysia as a citizen or permanent resident in order to qualify for the visa.).

Belize's retirement visa is age 45, but there's no way to apply younger.

The income requirements for either country are no problem, but the age thing... sigh.  :)

I am well below 50 so that can't be right unless the rules have changed. IIRC, the current income and net worth requirements are more stringent for those under 50 but still pretty small by Moustachian standards (the income part is tricky though because it means you must apply -before- you retire if you are not having SS or a pension).

You are under 50 and got the retirement visa without a sponsor?

Apparently Google lied to me, if that is the case...

Feel bloody tempted to apply for it....Before the rules change...

[arebelspy]

The govt website on the terms and conditions is at http://www.mm2h.gov.my/index.php/en/home/programme/terms-conditions and looks to be the same as when I applied. Anyone (below or above 50) can choose to apply through an agent for a fee (who will act as a local sponsor) or directly without any sponsor by putting up a RM 200-2,000 (~US$50-US$500) security bond with the amount depending on nationality. The agent's fees are much higher than the bond so direct application makes much more sense if you can put up with a bit of bureaucracy especially since most of the legwork will be in your country of residence and will not be done via the agent. Most of the effort in our case was getting the the police clearance certificates and in convincing the brokerages to release information about your accounts directly to MM2H (which they didn't do initially after receiving the direct request from MM2H despite my authorization due to privacy and security concerns). Interestingly, I found the MM2H office to be surprisingly efficient and pleasant to deal which I didn't really expect due to the usual reputation of Malaysian govt offices. There are also web forums with excellent tips on going through the process which were very helpful for us.

Duh, of course there would be businesses set up to be your "local sponsor."  Nice that you can apply directly though and just put up a bond.

Thanks for the info!  :D

Our upcoming Malaysia trip may have just become a scouting trip. 

[pa2016]

I am actually Malaysian, but have been working here in the US for the past 18 years.
For lower housing cost but still get that city-feel, you might want to check out the city called Ipoh. Everything is a lot cheaper than KL, but just as convenient. Everyone speaks English there too, in case you are concerned 😊

[jim555]

The one thing that really puts me off these LCOL countries is the justice system.  I read someone got arrested in the Philippines and they are waiting for a trial, it has been 5 years and still no trial.  No bail either.  Scary.

[TheAnonOne]

The one thing that really puts me off these LCOL countries is the justice system.  I read someone got arrested in the Philippines and they are waiting for a trial, it has been 5 years and still no trial.  No bail either.  Scary.

Things like this can/do happen in many countries to just tourists as well.

They are generally something not to be worried about, unless you are doing something obviously illegal...

[FrugalShrew]

Posting to follow.

[arebelspy]

Update:
My invested amount is now approaching $800k and my house is now worth around $350k  That put's my NW at close to 1.1MM.  I find myself wanting the security of a job still - but losing the willpower to keep pounding the pavement in sales/sales management roles that I have all these years.
Since my layoff from my dream job last year, I have been through 3 jobs as I just got up and quit if I did not like it.  The job I have now and been at for 5 months has some autonomy attached to it, so I can stomach it a bit more.  That said, the role is high pressure for results - "fiscal month end" is always an emergency.

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

Run the calculators over and over to help feel comfortable.  Healthy cash buffer (2 years expenses?), and confidence knowing you can get another job if you want it (hell, you've gotten 3 in the last year).

[Exflyboy]

Update:
My invested amount is now approaching $800k and my house is now worth around $350k  That put's my NW at close to 1.1MM.  I find myself wanting the security of a job still - but losing the willpower to keep pounding the pavement in sales/sales management roles that I have all these years.
Since my layoff from my dream job last year, I have been through 3 jobs as I just got up and quit if I did not like it.  The job I have now and been at for 5 months has some autonomy attached to it, so I can stomach it a bit more.  That said, the role is high pressure for results - "fiscal month end" is always an emergency.

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

wish I could help you... we have roughly $2.5M and I am still not quite convinced we have enough.. Oh and we spent $30K last year..:)

[okits]

Update:
My invested amount is now approaching $800k and my house is now worth around $350k  That put's my NW at close to 1.1MM.  I find myself wanting the security of a job still - but losing the willpower to keep pounding the pavement in sales/sales management roles that I have all these years.
Since my layoff from my dream job last year, I have been through 3 jobs as I just got up and quit if I did not like it.  The job I have now and been at for 5 months has some autonomy attached to it, so I can stomach it a bit more.  That said, the role is high pressure for results - "fiscal month end" is always an emergency.

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

wish I could help you... we have roughly $2.5M and I am still not quite convinced we have enough.. Oh and we spent $30K last year..:)

Frank, I feel the urge to grab you by the shoulders and shake you!

thriftycanadian - some kind of therapy could help you.  Don't let irrational worries about money stop you from making the most of your life. 

I understand the fear of poverty.  But let's look at how that would go.  So, you're poor.  Can you work?  If so, you hustle your ass off (job, business venture, side gig, whatever) and make money.  Can't work?  Reading scrubbyfish's book and journal I've realized there are so many social programs and supports available for those who need them.  Navigating the system to apply for grants and benefits is tricky, but if you can amass $1.1M NW you'll be able to do it.  And if, in this scenario, you can't navigate the paperwork and bureaucracy (and no one who cares about you could, either), you also wouldn't be able to competently administer your million-dollar stash, so your improved financial position wouldn't help you indefinitely.

As I approach middle age, I'm starting to worry a bit less about running out of money (someone who worries and delays gratification as reflexively as I do is not likely to ever be broke) and more about dying prematurely, having worked too much and not given the lion's share of my time, energy, and love to my family; having not laughed enough with friends; having ground myself down at a job I didn't want to be at; having rushed through life and missed so much peace, contentment, and quiet contemplation.

[happy]

Update:
My invested amount is now approaching $800k and my house is now worth around $350k  That put's my NW at close to 1.1MM.  I find myself wanting the security of a job still - but losing the willpower to keep pounding the pavement in sales/sales management roles that I have all these years.
Since my layoff from my dream job last year, I have been through 3 jobs as I just got up and quit if I did not like it.  The job I have now and been at for 5 months has some autonomy attached to it, so I can stomach it a bit more.  That said, the role is high pressure for results - "fiscal month end" is always an emergency.

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

wish I could help you... we have roughly $2.5M and I am still not quite convinced we have enough.. Oh and we spent $30K last year..:)

My advice was going to be not to take any notice of Exflyboy, since he's similarly afflicted: looks like he stole my line ;)

[CanuckExpat]

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

wish I could help you... we have roughly $2.5M and I am still not quite convinced we have enough.. Oh and we spent $30K last year..:)

Frank, I feel the urge to grab you by the shoulders and shake you!

thriftycanadian - some kind of therapy could help you.  Don't let irrational worries about money stop you from making the most of your life. 

If it helps any: Therapy with Doom

[FrugalFan]

Update:
My invested amount is now approaching $800k and my house is now worth around $350k  That put's my NW at close to 1.1MM.  I find myself wanting the security of a job still - but losing the willpower to keep pounding the pavement in sales/sales management roles that I have all these years.
Since my layoff from my dream job last year, I have been through 3 jobs as I just got up and quit if I did not like it.  The job I have now and been at for 5 months has some autonomy attached to it, so I can stomach it a bit more.  That said, the role is high pressure for results - "fiscal month end" is always an emergency.

My unstable upbringing has created an anxiety disorder of sorts around the fear of being poor etc. 

I am open to any thoughts and suggestions to help mitigate this feeling.....

I just re-read that Dr. Doom post that CanuckExpat posted and it is really great, you should read it if you haven't. With your current finances plus your DW's income plus the new child benefits plus eventually CPP/OAS (how old are you?), it seems like you are in great shape. The trouble seems to be the psychological aspect for you. At the very least, can you give yourself a break? Quit your job and take a true break for awhile. Give yourself permission to not focus on work or finding a job. After a few months, try to figure out what kind of job/side gig you might actually enjoy doing that would bring in a bit of extra cash?

[daverobev]

If it helps any: Therapy with Doom

Wow. That really speaks to me. Makes a lot of sense.

[Exflyboy]

Yup.. Persuit of money confused with the persuit of happiness.

Thats exactly what I've been doing..hmmm

[CanuckExpat]

How do you all read his posts that fast? They are like nine pages long and take me forever to get through.