Does insomnia eventually go away post FIRE?

[Stachey]

I thought my insomnia was from the stress of the job. 
There has been a slight improvement but after four weeks I thought it would be better than this.

What has other people's experience been like?

[GuitarStv]

What kind of sleep hygiene are you currently following?

[Financial.Velociraptor]

I'm about 3.5 years in and I sleep like the dead. 

GuitarStv is probably on the right track.  You may have some sleep aggravating habits that need to change.

[Stachey]

I can usually fall asleep right away if I go to bed earlyish (9:30/10) so I try to do that every night.
But then I wake up in the middle of the night...3 or 4 and I'm awake for hours.
Sometimes I can fall asleep again around 6 and sleep for a couple hours but not always.

I'm not familiar with the term sleep hygiene.  The room is pretty dark and cool. 

[GuitarStv]

Temperature is very important to getting back to bed.  Are you waking up too warm/cold?

Having a full bladder can wake you up in the middle of the night and make it hard to get back to sleep . . . some people will avoid drinking anything for 3 or 4 hours before bedtime to prevent this.

Are there any noises that might be waking you up?  Noise from outside, an HVAC system kicking on, a fridge compressor, etc.  Sometimes background white noise can help with this.

Are you using any screens within two hours of going to sleep?  There have been studies that show screen time before bed can lead to worse quality sleep through the night.

Are you taking any stimulants after noon during the day?  Coffee, tea, soda with caffeine, chocolate, etc.  They can hurt your ability to sleep properly.

Are you getting enough exercise during the day that you're tired?

Then we get into the issues related to your mental state.  If you have insomnia and you wake up, you're going to be pissed "Damn it, I'm up now.  Guess this night is a write-off." and that's going to keep you from getting back to sleep.  You're retired, so you don't have anywhere to be or anywhere to go.  If you are up at 4:00 am, and can't get back to sleep in short order maybe it's best to read for a bit and then try again later.

[Stachey]

Thanks GuitarStv!

It's not caffeine because I avoid that like the plague.
Exercise and screen time might be issues though.
I already do the reading at 4am thing and that does help.

But you've given me a lot of other possibilities to check out.
Cheers!

[GuitarStv]

No worries.  I had some bouts of insomnia in high school, and they really suck the fun out of your life.  That Fight Club quote about feeling like a copy of a copy of a copy really rang true to me.  I'm sure you can get whatever problem is going on licked!

[samsonator54321]

You should watch the national geographic show "Sleepless in America". I'm pretty sure it's free on YouTube. 

Two of the important things this specialist  on there said fix people with sleep issues are:

1.  Same bedtime and wake up time every day. Even on weekends. This may seem extreme but if you are really suffering from lack of sleep it would be worthwhile.
2. Only use bed for sleeping and sex. That means no reading in bed, screens in bed, sitting in bed while not trying to sleep etc.


There is a third thing too but I'm not sure what it was (caffeine or darkness?)  Anyways these people who had exhausted all other options started following the above and were cured.

[Stachey]

Thanks samsonator...I'm definitely trying to do the same bedtime every day thing.  I find that works well.
I have to look for that national geographic show.

[Stachey]

Thanks spartana!

Several people I have talked to said that they only need six hours of sleep to feel totally rested. 

[MNBen]

Several people I have talked to said that they only need six hours of sleep to feel totally rested.

I envy these people!  I get 8 hours of solid sleep every night, always have!  I've always wondered what else I could do with an extra 14 hours per week of awake free time!  Of course that was before discovering MMM.  Now I know once FIRE I won't care as much about how much free time I have because it'll all be free time.

Good luck!

[jac941]

I'm a chronic insomniac. Have been for years. Tried it all. Most of the recommendations above help.

Here's another. A doctor once told me that some people who wake at 3 am are waking up because their blood sugar drops. She told me to not eat sugary foods that spike my blood sugar at night (alcohol, dessert) and to eat something that's slow to digest / release energy before bed like a high fat high protein low sugar dairy product (yogurt, cheese) or a handful of nuts. I've found that this helps immensely when I actually do it.

It also really helps to just not care that you can't sleep. Takes years to get to that mental state, but it really helps me not feel bad about never sleeping. I mean clearly I've been functioning all these years without a good night sleep, and I'm still a productive member of society. It can't be that important...

[Rezdent]

I'm a chronic insomniac. Have been for years. Tried it all. Most of the recommendations above help.
-snip-
Here's another. A doctor once told me that some people who wake at 3 am are waking up because their blood sugar drops. She told me to not eat sugary foods that spike my blood sugar at night (alcohol, dessert) and to eat something that's slow to digest / release energy before bed like a high fat high protein low sugar dairy product (yogurt, cheese) or a handful of nuts. I've found that this helps immensely when I actually do it.

I was given similar instructions about blood sugar, plus I was told to keep a small bottle of honey next to my bed (the kind with a squirter top) while I got the lifestyle under control.
If I wake up in the middle of the night, I squirt some honey into my mouth.  It works, I'm usually asleep again within fifteen minutes.

[Stachey]

Thanks Jac941 and Rezdent,
I'm going to try those suggestions tonight.

[BattlaP]

Several people I have talked to said that they only need six hours of sleep to feel totally rested.

I envy these people!  I get 8 hours of solid sleep every night, always have!  I've always wondered what else I could do with an extra 14 hours per week of awake free time!  Of course that was before discovering MMM.  Now I know once FIRE I won't care as much about how much free time I have because it'll all be free time.

Good luck!

Yeah definitely jealous of these people. If I don't get 8 hours MINIMUM I end up falling asleep for an hour or so later in the day. I also feel best if I have a nap or two in addition to the 8 hours sleep. Ridiculous.

[pbkmaine]

I want to echo what others have said about good sleep practices. If I go to bed and get up at the same times every day, keep the bedroom dark and cold, and banish electronics, I sleep much better.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

I forgot to add...In FIRE...if your nightly sleep isn't getting it done...there is no reason you can't tap a freaking nap!  This should be a no pressure situation for you.

[soccerluvof4]

A little over 20 years ago I collapsed at The YMCA and ended up in the hospital for 15 days strictly from lack of sleep and the pressure to keep pushing. They basically came up with the conclusion I havent slept for years. Theres a great book put out about sleep by the Mayo clinic and as others have said everyone needs a different amount of sleep. The right amount is based on how you feel when you get up.

Also I too tried all the things mentioned by others and you need to try them all until you find what it is. But its really not all that uncommon to go through stages where your going to have sleepless nights. Most sleep is lost because people stress out about not falling asleep.

Over the years what I found that worked for me is:

No caffeine after Noon and pretty much alcohol ruins any good night sleep.

Eat like your suppose too, smaller meals 5-6x's a day and try not to eat past 6pm ( a small carb meal aids with sleep so i do eat a little yogurt with granola every night which helps alot).

Journal every night in the evenings whatever your thinking about well before bed so you can get alot of your thoughts out of your head. Write down any thought that comes in your mind no matter how scary, dumb , nonsense it is and tear it up and toss in the garbage.

Stick to a schedule and add to it or shorten it by 15 minutes at a time every two weeks.

For me I can take a nap once or twice a week but anything after 30mins screws up my sleep.

The hardest part if you cant sleep , just accept its ok and be tired for a day. If i wake up at 3am cant fall asleep I go for a walk and usually next night if I dont worry about it (hence journal) i will tank out.

Keep tract of what seems to work until you figure it out and good luck!

[Stachey]

Thanks everyone for your help with this.
And soccerluvof4 thanks for your insights.

What I've found so far that seems to be helping is:
* I very rarely have caffeine but have discovered that chocolate has caffeine (heavy sigh...are you &^%ing kidding me?!)
* Smaller meals seem to help
* If I go to bed later I seem to sleep straight through for 6 hours or so (unfortunately no guarantee I can fall asleep right away)
* naps definitely screw up any nighttime schedule.

[Cycling Stache]

Six hours of solid sleep may be fine if it's not leaving you feeling exhausted. 

We have some kind of crazy anti-nap bias in the US that--at least for some people--makes no sense.

I'm pretty much incapable of sleeping more than 7 hours in a row.  But I take at least a 2-hour nap almost every weekend day, and often a 20-30 minute nap on the occasional week day.  That works perfectly for me.  Again, different for different people, but I'm very committed to my sleep, and I simply do not sleep for the 8-10 hours in a row that many people seem to be capable of.

I also second the exercise recommendation.  I've found that regular exercise--and NOT right before bed--really helps the body relax and recover at night, which leads to better sleep.

[bacchi]

Six hours of solid sleep may be fine if it's not leaving you feeling exhausted. 

We have some kind of crazy anti-nap bias in the US that--at least for some people--makes no sense.

I'm pretty much incapable of sleeping more than 7 hours in a row.  But I take at least a 2-hour nap almost every weekend day, and often a 20-30 minute nap on the occasional week day.  That works perfectly for me.  Again, different for different people, but I'm very committed to my sleep, and I simply do not sleep for the 8-10 hours in a row that many people seem to be capable of.

I usually need 8 hours at night and a nap in the afternoon. Naps are wonderful. Embrace the nap!

[Parizade]

We have some kind of crazy anti-nap bias in the US that--at least for some people--makes no sense.... Naps are wonderful. Embrace the nap!

Science backs you up on this: http://www.today.com/health/nap-time-researchers-say-sleeping-twice-day-good-you-t98716

I have a sleep disorder, verified by medical testing about 15 years ago. I used to have a terrible time trying to get enough sleep, but now I get plenty of sleep and never have to take any sleep aids. Overall attention to good health (diet, exercise, meditation or other soul satisfying activity) combined with good sleep hygiene is EVERYTHING! Do some internet research or consult your doctor (some sleep disorders are potentially deadly), then keep experimenting to see what works best for you.

Also, when I wake up in the middle of the night now I view it as an opportunity to practice meditation/relaxation techniques. One doctor told me that lying in bed in a relaxed state, while not as restorative as actual sleep, is still valuable to the body and should not be dismissed. Plus I've been told that often those times when I think I'm just laying there wide awake I'm actually snoring and just DREAMING that I'm laying there wide awake.

[screwit]

There is also some work showing that having a break between sleeps was historically how we slept pre modern lighting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

As a historical norm
According to Ekirch's argument, adults typically slept in two distinct phases, bridged by an intervening period of wakefulness of approximately one hour.[6] This time was used to pray and reflect,[7] and to interpret dreams, which were more vivid at that hour than upon waking in the morning. This was also a favorite time for scholars and poets to write uninterrupted, whereas still others visited neighbors, engaged in sex, or committed petty crime.

Wehr's study
In his 1992 study, "In short photoperiods, human sleep is biphasic", Thomas Wehr had eight healthy men confined to a room for fourteen hours of darkness daily for a month. At first the participants slept for about eleven hours, presumably making up for their sleep debt. After this the subjects began to sleep much as people in pre-industrial times had. They would sleep for about four hours, wake up for two to three hours, then go back to bed for another four hours. They also took about two hours to fall asleep.

I have young kids at the moment and I've really noticed that under the age of 2 there's a distinct 40-45 minute rhythym (resulting in naps which are multiples of that). After that age there is absolutely a 4 hour cycle to the way my kids sleep. Also I've found it quite natural to fall into a 4 hour sleep cycle with them, where I wake up every four hours also. Personally I can't nap during the day (I have sleep paralysis which is worse when napping) but that seems to also be a perfectly normal way to sleep.

[Uturn]

I would pay very good money to get a good night's sleep.  I was just telling the GF that I am going to schedule an appointment with doc and see what is going on. 

* I don't drink caffeine after noonish, I've even tried none all day
* a good night is close to 2 hours to fall asleep
* happens in my bed, hotels, camping, etc... so I know it's not my mattress or temperature
* if I do fall asleep quickly, I'm up in about 4 hours
* I've tried sound machines, radio, TV, TV on but covered with a blanket.  Forensic files and The First 48 are good shows to listen to because the voice is monotone
* often, like this morning, I don't feel rested at all.  I've been up for 3 hours and feel like a nap
* I've tried nap and no naps during the day

This has been going on for years, and is getting worse.  I thought it was job stress because I had 2 stressful employers in a row, but my current job is so stress free it's almost like I don't even have one.  What's worse, on nights that I really don't sleep well or not at all, my glucose levels are shot for a day or so.  It's been so bad lately that I'm too tired to work out and now my A1C's are climbing. 

[ShortInSeattle]

As others have said, I don't think that retirement is necessarily a cure for insomnia. But if there are significant work-related stressors driving your insomnia, it may get better over time. But I've been a night-owl since I was a kid.

I get full-blown insomnia when I'm stressed, or simply when I'm jazzed about some new idea. It isn't always bad. But I've found a few go-to resources that help.

Installed Flux on my computers to reduce blue light in the evenings.
Turn down the lights at home in the evenings.
Sometimes I take a small dose of Melatonin before bed to help me get sleepy. (I get groggy if I do this too often though, it's good for fixing my sleep cycle when it gets too far out of whack.)
Avoid coffee after 3pm (Tea doesn't seem to bother me as much)
Exercise helps too.

I begin to "wind down" in the hours before bed, which seems to really help. Kind of like foreplay for sleep. (ha) Less screen-time, less light, more books. When I watch too much TV inevitably I end up going to bed much later.

I envy good sleepers. For me it seems to require a lot of prep work to do it well. :)

SIS

[libertarian4321]

The great thing about FIRE is that you no longer have to worry about such things. 

You are free to live life on your schedule, not that of your employer.

So if you want to stay up until 3 am binge watching Season 3 of the Sopranos, go for it.  Then sleep for a few hours, and take a nap in the afternoon.  Enjoy!

[hlca]

For me, I started sleeping better after I stopped working.  I became better at listening to my body.  Realized that my pillow was the culprit and after I switched started to sleep through the night again.  Also I tend to sleep better knowing that I don't have to wake up at a set time.  In other words I don't pressure myself to fall asleep in the next 30 minutes so I still have 6.5 hours of sleep.

[dess1313]

You should watch the national geographic show "Sleepless in America". I'm pretty sure it's free on YouTube. 

Two of the important things this specialist  on there said fix people with sleep issues are:

1.  Same bedtime and wake up time every day. Even on weekends. This may seem extreme but if you are really suffering from lack of sleep it would be worthwhile.
2. Only use bed for sleeping and sex. That means no reading in bed, screens in bed, sitting in bed while not trying to sleep etc.


There is a third thing too but I'm not sure what it was (caffeine or darkness?)  Anyways these people who had exhausted all other options started following the above and were cured.

so what do you do if you're a shift worker constantly flipping from nights to days to nights again?  there is NO routine to my schedule

I've been taking something to sleep for a long time now.  its the only thing that works so far for me.  i'm no longer in zombie mode when i go to work.  I have something similar to restless legs that would keep on half waking me up all the time ruining my sleep.  I could sleep for 12 hrs and still wake up tired and looking zombie-ish 

[GuitarStv]

You should watch the national geographic show "Sleepless in America". I'm pretty sure it's free on YouTube. 

Two of the important things this specialist  on there said fix people with sleep issues are:

1.  Same bedtime and wake up time every day. Even on weekends. This may seem extreme but if you are really suffering from lack of sleep it would be worthwhile.
2. Only use bed for sleeping and sex. That means no reading in bed, screens in bed, sitting in bed while not trying to sleep etc.


There is a third thing too but I'm not sure what it was (caffeine or darkness?)  Anyways these people who had exhausted all other options started following the above and were cured.

so what do you do if you're a shift worker constantly flipping from nights to days to nights again?  there is NO routine to my schedule

I've been taking something to sleep for a long time now.  its the only thing that works so far for me.  i'm no longer in zombie mode when i go to work.  I have something similar to restless legs that would keep on half waking me up all the time ruining my sleep.  I could sleep for 12 hrs and still wake up tired and looking zombie-ish

People were never designed to be robots to be turned on and off at different times.  Shift workers get less sleep and worse quality sleep when they get it.  Because of this, they also live shorter lives and worse health.

[Gone Fishing]

My insomnia has actually been worse since retirement. I usually go to sleep pretty easily, (usually around 10-11pm) but around 20% of the time I will wake sometime around 1-4am and have difficulty going back to sleep. Being excited about the next day is certainly a contributing factor (primary reason for being worse since FIRE). Using the bathroom can be a trigger, but I don't think it is the cause.  I'm never hungry when I wake up, but will eat more the following day.  Alcohol certainly makes things worse. I should probably try a little snack sometime. If I go back to sleep it is not until 6 or so which would also support the phase sleeping theory.  After 3 nights or so with poor sleep, I will take one Benadryl around 8pm, any later and it comes with grogginess of its own the next day which I find even more unpleasant than fatigue from lack of sleep and there is some evidence that excessive use of Benadryl may contribute to dementia later in life, so I try to avoid it if I can.

[Jon_Snow]

Mine is gone.

Deep, restful sleeps are the norm. Yet another in a long litany of FIRE-related wins.

[Free_at_50]

For what it is worth I have noticed that my sleep patterns and amount of sleep required has changed.  When I worked I was up at 5:30 am and went to bed around 9 pm but I drank coffee all day long to get by.  After retiring it appears I can get by with only 5 or 6 hours of sleep a night (10 pm to 4 am) along with a periodic nap during the day.  I am attributing these changes to the reduction in stress.  If I am really active on a given day, a 1 - 2 hour nap seems to be essential to keep me going.  Either way I am allowing my body to dictate what I need to adjust to my new life.  And I actually enjoy those periodic naps  :)  Good luck!