Do You Ever 'Buy Time'

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Granted, this is more of an FI question that fully FIRE, but I would also imagine post-FIRE this comes up sometimes...  Are there things that you are willing to pay others to do, or certain expenses that you just think to yourself - "this is silly, I'll just pay the 5 bucks and get on with my life".  Or, in our case, my SAH wife said, I am willing to go back to work as long as we can pay a maid once a month to do a deep clean of our house.  We all chip in (and more-so for the kids now that Mom is back at work which is a huge upside), but there are silly things like dusting the blinds and shelves and baseboards which are 'outsourced'. 

I am on the fence as to what I am willing to pay others to do (like build our pre-cut Sams' Club pergola last summer - I would've enjoyed doing it myself if I could've enlisted a neighbor for the price of pizza and plenty of beer, and fresh air, and reciprocity...).  This topic comes up more and more on E-R.org, especially with the rising stock market, that we could be paying people to watch our kids more often, eat out more often, have a company or neighbor's son mow and edge, etc. 

So, I'm interested, are there things post-FI(RE) that you 'outsource', because now you can and, well, YMOYL works in reverse when you are FI and the stock market is returning more than you expected? 

[Financial.Velociraptor]

I eat out a lot since going FIRE.  It is a smallish luxury I can afford.  And its one of those things I wanted to do more but couldn't when I had a job and people looked down on taking 1.5 hour lunches.  I get tastier food than I am able to prepare on my own so there is a quality issue.

I had a big tree fall into the house in May.  I let the insurance pay contractors to cut down tree, replace roof, replace interior drywall, replace fixtures, and paint.  I took cash in exchange for doing my own labor on carpet removal and upgrading to a stained slab.  I also took cash value to not have the tree removed and turned it all into a mighty stack of firewood (it was Post Oak.)

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I'll be perfectly honest, although we can cook and grill all sorts of good stuff at home, it sure is nice, with kids especially, to get out of the house.  I have had some fascinating conversations with waitresses and it also puts our family in the moment.  We can discuss the day, what we want to do this weekend, etc. without having to 'clean up' or feel insulated and have any cabin fever issues.  Just being out of the house has some positive effects when the weather sucks.

[dragoncar]

I don't iron my own work shirts, that's for damn sure. 

[EscapeVelocity2020]

You know, I used to iron everything for the week.  And I used to have to wear ties to work.  I did enjoy it, just like I still enjoy cutting my lawn.  I think it puts you in a professional mindset (the ironing, not the mowing), but now that I can wear whatever is comfortable, well, I sure as hell don't iron anymore.  And I'm not really in a professional mindset anymore, which is a nice natural progression, although people are really impressed with how 'hardcore' I still am.  So even without ironing, I'm still way too serious.  Damn my profession defining me, even when I try to channel my inner slouch.

[dragoncar]

You know, I used to iron everything for the week.  And I used to have to wear ties to work.  I did enjoy it, just like I still enjoy cutting my lawn.  I think it puts you in a professional mindset, but now that I can wear whatever is comfortable, well, I don't iron anymore.  And I'm not really in a professional mindset anymore, although people are really impressed with how 'hardcore' I still am.  Damn my profession defining me..  I just like structure and neat creases :)

I mow my own lawn.  Guess that shows my mindset :-P

[deborah]

My SO hates mowing lawns - one reason we don't have one.

[DoubleDown]

Man, I'll say my threshold for hiring stuff out is MUCH higher now. Not because of being a cheapskate, but because I feel like it has to be pretty exceptional for me to justify sitting on my ass (figuratively or literally) while someone else does the work for me. I have really been enjoying learning how to do even small, stupid things on my own, like changing a watch battery (the kind that requires special tools to get the back off), doing simple electrical work on the house, fixing plumbing problems, building and repairing furniture, etc.

Like I said, it's not so much the money saved (though that brings satisfaction too), but the empowerment/accomplishment of doing it myself, knowing how stuff works, having the tools and knowledge to do it again in the future, staying active, and probably lots of other good reasons I don't even recall. Oh, I just recalled another -- keeps the wife off my back from wondering what I "did" all day!

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I agree with some of that, I got a $200 quote for repairing our in-wall oven because the buttons were de-laminating.  It was a common issue on GE ovens in our neighborhood, so they sent a replacement circuit board and everything for free, but you could pay a 'certified technician' to install.  It was a bit intimidating (and I zapped myself once before I flipped the breaker, very thankful for low voltage), but there were no special tools or experience needed.  I felt pretty badass getting it done in an hour, but not all of my DIY are such all-around success stories.

I do that on every job, figure out if I need to buy any tools that I'll only use once, see how clear the instructions are, and then how much it will cost to outsource.  But there are also tedious jobs or more advanced jobs (refrigerator coil repair = total fail).  I like getting it done myself, but I wanted a FIRE'd Mustachian take on this.  I guess I'm worried MMM is looking over my shoulder, waiting to facepunch me everytime I write the cleaning lady a cheque :)

[Dr. Doom]

Hell yes I occasionally buy time.

- In the spring/summer, if I need a full weekend away, I'll pay someone $30 to mow and trim my lawn, freeing me from the tyranny of mandatory suburban landscaping.  I don't mind it most of the time, but when it's preventing me from doing something else that I either really want to or really have to do, it transforms from something that's 'meh' to something I hate.

- Twice a month, on average, I'll get a pizza or Chinese out.  I usually do this when I've had an especially trying day, or I have another commitment that evening and can't cook.  Yeah, I'm a guy who cooks.

- Around town I mix up driving and biking.  But I have to admit, there are definitely times when I say:  I'm not biking the 3 miles to the store because it's dark and cold and <whines> I don't wanna.

- I pay a local guy $80 once a year to clean and set-up my guitar, which has a floating bridge, making it obnoxiously time consuming to do.  This is another thing that I'll almost certainly do myself post RE but since I'm still working, it's great to let someone else handle it.  As an added bonus, the people who do this type of work are local artisans and really appreciate the business.

- One off story:  Two weeks ago, our above-the-range microwave broke.  I was able to diagnose that it was the magnetron, but rather than buy a new one for $99 and attempt installation myself (a process that, due to the microwave's capacitor, could potentially result in an electricity-related disaster), I instead bought a new unit for $240.  I saved probably a full day of my life doing this.  Note that if I wasn't working any more I almost certainly would have taken on the repair as a fun challenge and made an attempt -- instead of viewing the whole thing like a giant PITA that needed to be immediately addressed. 

All of this crazy spending actually makes me feel good instead of bad -- because I do it so infrequently, it's a genuine treat.  Mmmm, occasional pizza.

I kind of imagine that I'll generally be more like DoubleDown once I finally glide into ER because once time is not a scarce resource, some things that currently appear to be stressful will instead look like something to do and/or "challenges."  We'll see.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Thanks for the detailed comment Doom.  Funny, RootofGood posted about his magnetron* when his blog first fired up.  I was excited for ER because it was full of 'Evil Transformers', sort of like I'd always imagined :)  Oh wait, that's Megatron, dang.

*

January was a very busy month because things fell apart.  A lot.  Before we could get our new oven installed, our microwave emitted it’s last electromagnetic rays and then died a sudden and painless death.  After a quick google, all the advice said “don’t bother trying to fix microwaves, it’s cheaper to buy a new one”.  Figuring this advice suspect, I proceeded to tear apart the microwave and test all kinds of things with my trusty voltmeter.  Sure enough, the magnetron was shorted out.  I found a few replacement magnetrons (that’s a cool word, isn’t it?) on eBay for $50-60, which was about the price of a similar but brand new microwave from Walmart (the cheapest place we found new microwaves).  Now I know why the initial advice was “don’t bother fixing it”.  No sense in trying to repair a 13 year old microwave when a brand new one is the same price.

And yes, that was also worked in to my comment in an even more lame way on his post - Damn you internet persistent record! (shakes fists at sky)

[Jon_Snow]

Doom touched on it, but yeah, when time is not at a premium anymore it just make sense you are going to tackle more things yourself.

For instance, a very large Douglas fir toppled by a windstorm is now lying on the ground on my island acreage. We are talking a big tree - it probably contains 4 years of firewood. In past years (while I was working) it would be a no brainer to call the local "tree guy" to come and buck it into rounds - and even get him to split it for us. Now I have the time to not only cut it into manageable rounds, but also split it - thankfully we have skookum hydraulic splitter to speed things up.

Do I care it will probably take me 3x as long to deal with this tree as opposed to local "expert". Nope. And it's not even about saving some money. To me, it's a part of further honing some skills (chainsaw work, wood spliting and stacking), getting some great exercise, and just feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment at the end of the job.

Unless I am completely out of my element, I'll avoid hiring someone whenever possible.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

-was writing this up when Jon posted.  I'm super impressed JS, and imagining 'Rocky, Eye of the Tiger' montages as I was reading your post and earlier posts about getting fit :)

But, joking aside, I just thought that MMM really does not hit upon this.  A few folks have said 'MMM is buying time', but I got the impression from his blog that he tries to do everything himself, including fixing a wheel bearing which could easily have ruined their drive back from Canada, etc..  (The only reason why that sticks in my mind is that I've had car trouble on vacation.  Fortunately, it was my fraternity driving to South Padre and we got the POS car fixed with only one night burned, and hey, any town you're in with your fraternity brothers when college is out and you are headed south is going to be a fun night.  But, well, I'm a little older now, and I put a parenthesis on this digressing so I hope you've skipped ahead...).

I like the idea of going to YMOYL 201 - not just 'are you willing to go to work to pay this hourly wage to outsource', but also, do the full analysis (the hourly wage might include one-off tools, and storing those tools, etc.) plus, as a bonus, I employ someone at a fair wage who otherwise might be working at McDonald's or unemployed.  I have always wanted to be more charitable, so maybe I should feel good that I do what I enjoy doing for society and pay someone to do what I don't like to do (Although, if I go too far down that road, I could easily work much longer and outsource much more).

I think MMM is hamstrung by having to make posts to the masses, and this topic especially was a grey one for me.  Thanks for the input.

[Dr. Doom]

..

You have a good memory, EV -- it's amazing you recalled a blog post from two years ago.  Gotta keep that in mind in the future:  There will be no tricks played on you, sir.

Transformers are fun, but I have to say, all of the recent movies have been pretty horrible.  My favorite one was the 80s cartoon feature, which had a Weird Al song in it -- (Dare to be Stupid.)

Snow, re: wood splitting, that is awesome.  I know a lot of people have already said this to you, but count me as another:  I love reading your post-ER posts.  You're clearly much happier -- and I'm so glad for you.  Tremendous.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

- while I was crafting this fine post, Joan-eh made a good point, but it involves debate and my post really is not trying to instigate debating the finer points of MMM.  In fact, I'm quite happy to avoid debate all together.

I agree to that Doom, as a 'transformation' (sorry, just couldn't stop myself), Jon_Snow's story is very inspirational.  I only hope to hit my second wind and have it be half as awesome!  I think ER will be reinvigorating, but a little bit more like 'the same level of awesome but different' as opposed to suddenly becoming more awesome.  But hey, any upside on my expectations will be a nice surprise.  I've had a surprising number of nice surprises as I've passed the 40 y.o. mark that I never would've expected.

I'm in agreement with thinking more along the lines that I will leverage extra time to kick more ass, I just don't know if I'd put cutting up a massive tree in the dead of winter quite as high as establishing a profitable YouTube or Vine career (or GoPro Kayak-er, if that's more your thing). 

I guess, as long as you are doing what you love, feel free to cut up that damn tree :)

[Jon_Snow]

Yeah, cutting up trees is considered "fun" by many here in the PNW ;) Not as fun as making kayakin' GoPro vids though, I'll give you that. If I get underwater orca footage this Summer, I will post it on this forum SOMEWHERE, I promise.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

You could also 'GoPro' the chainsaw footage.  There's probably an audience for that too (no comment).  But yeah, I'd prefer the orcas. 

(Edit to delete rambling on about an experience with dolphins, it's an involuntary reflex to want to say something about stuff like that)

[retired?]

Man, I'll say my threshold for hiring stuff out is MUCH higher now. Not because of being a cheapskate, but because I feel like it has to be pretty exceptional for me to justify sitting on my ass (figuratively or literally) while someone else does the work for me. I have really been enjoying learning how to do even small, stupid things on my own, like changing a watch battery (the kind that requires special tools to get the back off), doing simple electrical work on the house, fixing plumbing problems, building and repairing furniture, etc.

Like I said, it's not so much the money saved (though that brings satisfaction too), but the empowerment/accomplishment of doing it myself, knowing how stuff works, having the tools and knowledge to do it again in the future, staying active, and probably lots of other good reasons I don't even recall. Oh, I just recalled another -- keeps the wife off my back from wondering what I "did" all day!

Exactly!  How in the world can one feel good about watching someone do something you could do yourself? 

I think the question comes down to how you'd use that free time vs. paying someone.  This is a post-FIRE thread, but suppose you make $50/hour in your job, that doesn't mean you'd pay someone to do any job if they charged less than $50/hour.  If the free time involves me sitting on my arse (admit it, not every hour of FIRE time is filled.....sort of the point) then I am not inclined to pay too much.  If it allows me to go out-of-town, then sure.

[Cinder]

No need to duck face punches. It depends on circumstances: like these....

When I read that, I was picturing 'duck-face' punches, aka punching people who make duck-faces, and literally laughed out loud. 

[Exhale]

I am in the process of selling my house to travel full time, with renting enroute

Spartana, I hope that you start a thread about this doing this - would love to hear how it goes!

[oldtoyota]

Absolutely!!!!!

Yesterday I left the house to walk 5 min to grocery to pick up fresh ingredients for dinner - fish and veg . By the time I came  home 45 min later, (not sure why it takes so long?!), prepped, cooked and cleaned up, - a total of 2 hours were wasted. (Not including the eating time- which is a constant value).  The night before, I ordered home delivery sushi - (cheap and plentiful in toronto). If I calculate the cost of  2 hours of my time for the labour and food costs for last nights dinner, compared to the delivered sushi, it's actually cheaper to order in!   When I started this mindset with YMOYL back in early 90s - I started to gauge everything compared to my hourly wage. For this reason, I look for ways to buy time.

This sounds like justification to me. You could save time by thinking ahead as to what you are going to eat and doing all of the grocery shopping in one large trip instead of a special trip for one meal. It would be more efficient to do one large trip and plan out meals in advance. Then, you'd save time and probably $$.

If you don't want to, that's another story. There are times I just don't want to cook or plan ahead and then I'll go out. However, I know it's still cheaper to cook at home. Also, one doesn't have to cook only meals that require a lot of time. There are plenty of recipes with short prep and cook times.

[oldtoyota]

To answer the OP question, I definitely buy services to save time. I do not want to renovate or learn how, so I hire people for that.

We still do the following ourselves--most cooking, painting, cleaning, laundry, lawn care, gardening. We also exchange childcare with others to save $$ there.

[Joan-eh?]

I am in the process of selling my house to travel full time, with renting enroute

Spartana, I hope that you start a thread about this doing this - would love to hear how it goes!

I second that!

[RootofGood]

No as to maid service, lawn care, landscaping, cleaning, etc. 

We also cook at home probably 95-99% of the time and eat out only 1-2 times.  Though it's often easier to spend the hour or so cooking and cleaning instead of deciding on a restaurant, packing kids up, walking or driving to the restaurant, possibly waiting a long time for service and food to come out, deal with a cranky 2 year old, settle up, get back in the car, unpack.  We also get to eat exactly what we want how we want it. 

In recent memory, we did "buy time" by hiring someone to install the exterior siding, new windows, and complete a major roof repair.  It was probably $2000-3000 in labor over what I would have spent on the materials and equipment alone.  The crew worked about 150-175 man hours at a rather fast pace which probably equates to 300+ man hours for me (4 months working half time!).  $3000 was totally worth it, since that represents only one month or so of our retirement spending, or 1.5 Caribbean cruises. 

The most recent MMM article left me thinking "hmmm, that crawlspace pipe installation job sounds horrible!".  I've crawled in our crawlspace for an hour or two to tear out and replace a sump pump, and it was a pretty awesome experience but not one I want to experience for more than an hour or two.  I definitely felt like a bad ass when I crawled back out from underneath with the dead sump pump covered in mud and gunk and claimed victory over it.  But 20 of those sessions?  No thanks...  I'd be buying time in that case. 

In the future, I'll probably buy more time as our portfolio grows.  I'm starting to do it in tiny bits.  Like I won't spend 10 minutes to save a buck by going to a store with a sale on something.  Or on a more recent vacation I could have saved $10 by dropping the family off at the cruise port instead of parking and taking the shuttle together with them, but it would have taken an extra ~1 hour (and in hindsight led to possibly even more delay). 

[Exflyboy]

I am in the process of selling my house to travel full time, with renting enroute

Spartana, I hope that you start a thread about this doing this - would love to hear how it goes!

I second that!

Third!.. We are thinking about doing the same thing.. Maybe to foreign climes

[KD]

Yes.


When we bought this home.  There were others we considered that were much less expensive but needing more updating & repairing than we wanted to tackle.  We've upgraded every home we've lived in on a thin dime and lotsa sweat, so we are rather tired of always "taking the cheaper route" and could afford a bit more this go round and did so willingly.  Hahaha...the vast majority of us do this to some extent...how many of you fired your own tiles, milled your own lumber, formed your own bricks, etc.

Hubs used to work on our cars back in the day.  Nope, we pay now for oil changes and simple repairs that he used to do.

Every time we go to the grocery and buy something we could prepare at home cheaper such as when we used to buy bread, canned goods, 'specialty cakes', etc.  We garden, but lots of stuff we could do w/less out of pocket but don't.  We buy the preparers time.

[RootofGood]

I just bought time in a small way.  I had to pick up a maintenance medication that's a monthly prescription at walmart.  I had a six month refill.  Insurance only covers 1 month at a time, requiring a potentially long and painful wait at the pharmacy once per month if I want the insurance rate to apply. 

With insurance, 1 month is $2.67.  If I buy 3 months at a time, it's $3.33 per month (without insurance).  I bought all six months without spending more than 2 seconds thinking about it.  I paid $20 whereas I could have returned once per month and paid $2.67x6 = $16.  I spent $4 extra to save at least 30 minutes, but probably more like 1-2 hours (calling to renew rx, waiting in line, talking to cashier, paying) or more if I didn't happen to already be at walmart around renewal time. 

I'll probably save the $4 by skipping a trip to walmart that I would otherwise make just to get the rx each month that might lead to spending money on stuff I wouldn't have bought otherwise. 

[Exflyboy]

I have never hired a contractor to do anything..

We doubled the size of our house.. own bare hands, built 2 airplanes, rebuilt several cars, tractor engine rebuild, engine and transmission rebuild two years ago on my $350 car and driving it today. Changing my own oil is nothing.

I rebuilt a deck on one of my rentals this Summer.

ooh I lied.. I did pay a kid $8:20 an hour to dig three 4 foot post holes for our barn extension.. I HATE digging!

[zinethstache]

The start of DH FIRE years came about at my insistence he rehab our 1961 rambler. It was the best move we ever made. He did hire out the countertops. He gutted our family room, kitchen, dining, entry, main bath and he converted one of our 4 bedrooms to my art studio. We saved so much money it on that work that it kick started our venture into rentals. Again the best thing that ever happened to us was him quitting his day job. DH stayed FIREd after that task was done and has continued to save us boatloads by maintaining pretty much every thing. After the house was finished he re-plumbed our swimming pool, extended the pad the equipment sits on and put up a new steel shed to house it all. FIRE has great synergy with DIY folks. I was afraid he would get bored or depressed, but after 4 years he is still going strong with a to do list a mile long. Some folks were meant to "putter" and "tinker" with things. I often get home from work and have to drop everything to go be his third hand. He will have waited all day for me to get home to help him finish up some snarly thing that he just couldn't quit make work with 2 hands. I chuckle when I look out at our yard that now looks like grandpa and grandma live there because it has cute er... manly bird feeders painted to match our house. Rows of roto-tilled earth for our garden, yes it is march 3 and our garden is prepped. Too funny, but in a very good way!

[Cassie]

The start of my hubby's fire was buying a 1950 ranch that was in to bad shape to live in. He hired a helper & within 4 months we moved in to a totally new home.  WE saved a bundle of $. However, we buy car repairs, some convenience foods, eat out 1x/week & a house cleaner 1x/month. 

[Dicey]

The start of DH FIRE years came about at my insistence he rehab our 1961 rambler.

I literally thought you meant he was rebuilding a car! Anyone around here old enough to remember them? Good story, once I turned to the right page.