The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Metta on January 08, 2017, 09:59:00 AM
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This is my first week after retiring and we've travelled to Denver (where I grew up) so that my husband can attend a work-related conference. I've accompanied him to help smooth things for him where I can and to visit family.
My sister invited me to a party with family and her friends, most of whom I've known since high school/college. One of her close friends, Kim, told me that they were so proud that their two children were going to expensive colleges and then asked me how my job was going. I said, "I guess fine but I'm not there anymore."
"Oh, I'm so sorry. I hope you'll find something else soon," she said.
"Uh..." Clearly my sister did not mention my retirement to anyone.
"Is that a good thing that you've left? Was it a terrible job?"
"No, it was a good job, but very long hours. I've retired."
It went seriously downhill from there. She fixed me with a strange look that I had a hard time figuring out. Loathing? Envy? Disbelief? What the hell was going on here? Why is she looking at me like that?
"You're giving me a strange look, Kim. What are you thinking?"
"No one our age can retire." (Point of reference: I'm 55. She's 53.)
By now I've given the Shockingly Simple Math to Early Retirement talk so many times I have it perfectly rehearsed, so I started saying "We've saved about half our income for the last twenty years. That is how we've been able to do this. Almost anyone can do it, as long as they have an above poverty-level income."
"That is not possible."
"I assure you, the money fairy did not land on my shoulder. We made deliberate choices that led here."
"I know all about this, my husband is a financial planner." Enter the husband into the conversation.
"We will never be able to retire. We just don't make enough." Said the husband.
"We work harder than you! We can't retire," said Kim.
"You had a car and a house more than a decade before we did. We lived in areas you thought of as slums because we were saving about a third of our money even when we were making $25,000 to $35,000 a year together. There is no magic here. Just choices. And there's nothing wrong with any choice. But some lead to early retirement and some don't."
I can't really describe here the looks and hostility I felt from her and I'm puzzled as to why. I asked my husband and he says that because we couldn't afford the pretty clothes, fancy cars, big houses, and exotic vacations that my family and my sister's friends enjoyed, people slotted us into the "Lovable Losers" category and that Kim, in particular, always condescended to us and thought she was better than we were. He thinks that there is some sort of cognitive dissonance that she is dealing with.
I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties. Has anyone else dealt with hostility around this? Figured out the cause of it? Figured out an elegant solution?
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
Please try to reframe that experience as the positive affirmation of all the times you chose to save rather than indulge yourselves.
In future, use fewer words. It's really nobody's business but your own. And,
♡☆♡☆♡☆CONGRATULATIONS!!!♡☆♡☆♡☆
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My parents retired at 40, it was pretty rough with the family. So bad, that I independently discovered FIRE and how to do it, as my parents wouldn't so much as utter a word in regards to money and personal finance, in fear that my siblings and I would repeat something. In current talks to friends, I've switched from saying 'retire early' to 'become financially independent'. I thinks it's hard for others to not feel a sense of shame. I'm almost 30. Most people I know have more than double the amount of life I've lived before they reach retirement, not even FI, just retirement. Your new job can be long term investing and working on financial planning. It sounds like a job, even if it only means checking into your vanguard account 1x/month. And just mentioning investing may be enough to bore the uneducated masses.
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Disengage yourself from such conversations ASAP?
I think this gets back to the other thread discussing why people won't get on board with FIRE. They won't get on board because they're committed to their upper middle class spending lifestyle. It would be like if an atheist tried to deconvert an evangelical Christian, or an animal rights vegetarian scolded a guy who eats steak and potatoes every day. There just isn't a common frame of reference to have the debate. The best thing to do is to avoid being drawn into it in the first place.
FWIW, I'm 14 years younger than you, semi-FIRE'd last week, and my sister is also a spendthrift. Unless she needs my help minding the kids (chasing around after her two toddlers is a great way to avoid awkward conversations), I don't attend social functions with her friends. Ever.
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
Please try to reframe that experience as the positive affirmation of all the times you chose to save rather than indulge yourselves.
In future, use fewer words. It's really nobody's business but your own. And,
♡☆♡☆♡☆CONGRATULATIONS!!!♡☆♡☆♡☆
I don't really see that she made wrong choices. She made choices that were important to her and her family and I'm really OK with that. Everyone is different. She has social capital that I don't have because I didn't spend the time or money to join the groups she joined. Choices matter.
I am pretty happy with my current state of things and perhaps I am too obvious about it. Normally when she sees me I am miserable because I normally have altitude sickness. This time she saw me once the drugs I take for altitude sickness had worked and I was no longer curled in a miserable little ball. So perhaps it looked like I was gloating in my happiness.
You're right that I need to use fewer words. The more I explained the worse things got.
and
♡♡♡THANK YOU!!!♡♡♡
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My parents retired at 40, it was pretty rough with the family. So bad, that I independently discovered FIRE and how to do it, as my parents wouldn't so much as utter a word in regards to money and personal finance, in fear that my siblings and I would repeat something. In current talks to friends, I've switched from saying 'retire early' to 'become financially independent'. I thinks it's hard for others to not feel a sense of shame. I'm almost 30. Most people I know have more than double the amount of life I've lived before they reach retirement, not even FI, just retirement. Your new job can be long term investing and working on financial planning. It sounds like a job, even if it only means checking into your vanguard account 1x/month. And just mentioning investing may be enough to bore the uneducated masses.
Thanks for your perspective! My plan is to write books so I may just say that I've changed careers back to freelance writer and leave it at that. It means other awkward questions like "What have you written that I have read?" but at least it won't provoke hostility.
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Disengage yourself from such conversations ASAP?
I think this gets back to the other thread discussing why people won't get on board with FIRE. They won't get on board because they're committed to their upper middle class spending lifestyle. It would be like if an atheist tried to deconvert an evangelical Christian, or an animal rights vegetarian scolded a guy who eats steak and potatoes every day. There just isn't a common frame of reference to have the debate. The best thing to do is to avoid being drawn into it in the first place.
FWIW, I'm 14 years younger than you, semi-FIRE'd last week, and my sister is also a spendthrift. Unless she needs my help minding the kids (chasing around after her two toddlers is a great way to avoid awkward conversations), I don't attend social functions with her friends. Ever.
Congratulations on your semi-FIRE'd state!
Disengagement sounds like good plan. I need to practice gracious ways of doing it. I think that I have to attend my sister's parties because she is my sister. FWIW, my sister is a stunningly frugal person in her own right who has a lot to teach me. She just doesn't have much income and has had some bad breaks. Otherwise she would have a similar bank account. Her children are smart, accomplished, and frugal as well. So it is not my sister that's like this, it's her friends.
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
Please try to reframe that experience as the positive affirmation of all the times you chose to save rather than indulge yourselves.
In future, use fewer words. It's really nobody's business but your own. And,
♡☆♡☆♡☆CONGRATULATIONS!!!♡☆♡☆♡☆
I don't really see that she made wrong choices. She made choices that were important to her and her family and I'm really OK with that. Everyone is different. She has social capital that I don't have because I didn't spend the time or money to join the groups she joined. Choices matter.
I am pretty happy with my current state of things and perhaps I am too obvious about it. Normally when she sees me I am miserable because I normally have altitude sickness. This time she saw me once the drugs I take for altitude sickness had worked and I was no longer curled in a miserable little ball. So perhaps it looked like I was gloating in my happiness.
You're right that I need to use fewer words. The more I explained the worse things got.
and
♡♡♡THANK YOU!!!♡♡♡
Re bold above. It's good that you see this. Make sure she knows that you do. I think it will go a long way toward preserving the friendship. Only if you want it to, of course.
□ ○ □ ○ □ YOU'RE WELCOME! □ ○ □ ○ □ ○
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Congratulations on your semi-FIRE'd state!
Disengagement sounds like good plan. I need to practice gracious ways of doing it. I think that I have to attend my sister's parties because she is my sister. FWIW, my sister is a stunningly frugal person in her own right who has a lot to teach me. She just doesn't have much income and has had some bad breaks. Otherwise she would have a similar bank account. Her children are smart, accomplished, and frugal as well. So it is not my sister that's like this, it's her friends.
I don't think it's inherently ungracious to decline invites to social events you don't want to attend. If it's someone you don't want to socialize with anyway, it's a good way to distance yourself. And if it's someone you do care about, like your sister, then a nice way to handle it is to decline, then suggest doing something else instead. You don't even have to give an excuse. Just tell your sister, "thanks, but I can't go to the party with you Saturday night. Do you want to get together for brunch on Sunday instead?" That way she'll know you aren't blowing her off, just the party.
Oh, and congrats to you on FIRE'ing, too. You've done something awesome and amazing. Don't feel the need to justify yourself (and your life) to others who can't or won't understand. You've earned the right to live your life as you wish and be happy. To me, one of the nicest things about entering middle-age is that it's substantially easier now to get away with being a bit "eccentric." :-D
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I think I would have changed "We've saved about half our income for the last twenty years. That is how we've been able to do this. Almost anyone can do it, as long as they have an above poverty-level income."
To this: "We've saved about half our income for the last twenty years. That is how we've been able to do this. It wasn't always easy, but we decided that it was a priority for us."
While there's nothing wrong with your original wording, it may provoke some defensiveness. Changing the wording leaves it up to them to decide whether they're interested enough to ask questions or instead just want to dismiss your priorities as different than their own.
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"No, it was a good job, but very long hours. I've retired."
This is where I would have ended the conversation.
"That is not possible."
I would have just smiled and shrugged and said "well, it worked out for us somehow". Instead of going into a lecture about money and lifestyle which likely came off as judgemental to the other person (and causing an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance) force her to ask how you did it. This puts her in control of the conversation and is much less threatening.
"We've saved about half our income for the last twenty years. That is how we've been able to do this. Almost anyone can do it, as long as they have an above poverty-level income."
"I assure you, the money fairy did not land on my shoulder. We made deliberate choices that led here."
"You had a car and a house more than a decade before we did. We lived in areas you thought of as slums because we were saving about a third of our money even when we were making $25,000 to $35,000 a year together. There is no magic here. Just choices. And there's nothing wrong with any choice. But some lead to early retirement and some don't."
Read these sentences and try to put yourself in her shoes. They are true of course, but imagine how they sound to the other person. Ask yourself if these could be interpreted as condescending and judgemental.
There is a great book I read a while ago called Nonviolent Communication. Highly recommended.
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The prevalent mentality these days is that people feel entitled to the big house and the fancy car and the expensive hair salon and the world wide trips and the kids in expensive schools. Even if they have to swim in debt forever they still feel its their right to have all this crap.
So when they are presented with cold, hard facts that by making more educated decisions about their choices that they could have a better life without debt AND with early retirement, they refuse to accept it.
Congratulations on your choices that lead to FIRE!
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Sorry you had to deal with this. I also subscribe to the "less is more" option when discussing why I don't have to work. It's hard not to want to share with people all the great ideas that they could also use to get out of the rat race, but it's that old adage about "leading a horse to water." Better to maintain a bit of vagueness/mystery and let people inquire if they want help/info.
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Biggest takeaway for me is your friends husband should be fired
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Biggest takeaway for me is your friends husband should be fired
lol! Certainly says something for wanting to see that someone has the fruit on the tree before you heed their advice.
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
I don't think that this is the case. I think that people like to live large and there is a cognitive dissonance that occurs when people don't have the same world view.
The idea that kids have to go to expensive schools is common.
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
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It’s really tough to know how people will respond to the FIRE concept. Unfortunately I think you’re more likely to get some degree of negative knee-jerk reaction for reasons others mentioned. Knowing your audience helps. If you don't know them, better to tread slowly and feel them out. Unfortunately, if you decide to go into details about FIRE you might run the risk of the adversarial conversation you had. Personally, I’m not one who relishes getting into those debates/arguments. Pursing FIRE is a personal lifestyle choice that you shouldn’t have to defend, but the reality is some/many people will see it threateningly towards their own life style and choices. It's anti-Joneses and many people are wired by our society to find that threatening.
I’m not yet FIRE, but I’m within a few years of being in your shoes. Occasionally I broach the topic in social settings, friends or family. Depending on the initial reaction I decide whether to give more info. If I think someone is going to go the hostile route, I put it as planning to leave my current career after I’ve saved enough to pursue a variety of other lower paying activities that derive personal interest for me. This usually disarms hostility as it removes the “retired” component, keeps some concept of making money in the mix, and instead redirects it to aspirational work. What I don’t share is most of my planned future activities are unlikely to generate income. They don’t need to know that. And it's low likelihood they break out a spreadsheet on you and start challenging your math. Typically once you move the conversation it’ll redirect to the activities you raised or, more often, something else entirely. I’ve done this quite a few times successfully. My 2 cents.
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
I don't think that this is the case. I think that people like to live large and there is a cognitive dissonance that occurs when people don't have the same world view.
The idea that kids have to go to expensive schools is common.
Very true I told a buddy of mine I was retiring at 37 he laughed in my face( off topic 2 others in the conversation approached me alone and asked for info and are well on their way to fire ) his wife is a financial planner. And I also said we were moving to a different school district that has very similar ratings to the one we were in but the property taxes are 2% lower. To which he said just wait til you have kids they need the very best schools in the high property tax areas. You just don't get it.
I always talk about fire. We live a very high life though spending is around 45-50k outside of mortgage. But I plan to embrace once free from work and tell people. It's worth one person who doesn't care to listen if one hears something and wants to know how.
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I've come to the conclusion that a lot of financial planners are really salespeople for a variety of investment products.
They know what they've been told to know, which happens to be stuff that validates to themselves what they are selling to others.
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I've come to the conclusion that a lot of financial planners are really salespeople for a variety of investment products.
They know what they've been told to know, which happens to be stuff that validates to themselves what they are selling to others.
Couldn't agree more - and we count our IFP in the opposite group. Last year, we made 15.93% return on our investments - before our contributions - and he charged 0.5%. It took us a long time to find someone who would work for us on our terms.
We're good with that.
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"That is impossible."
Could be answered with:
"And yet, we are doing it, so it must be possible. :) If you ever have any interest in learning how, we'll be glad to tell you what we learned from others who successfully pulled this off. What good movies have you seen lately?"
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I hope I don't encounter this when I FIRE. For casual acquaintences I just don't want to get into too many details. I'll probably say I am on a sabbatical.
I casually throw in reading early retirement blogs, the fact that I work in tech and can lose my job at any point, and that I don't have children as reasons to prepare for it and be able to pull it off.
I have some retired friends that lead active lives that I do stuff with, and they get the concept because they are totally enjoying their lives. But they say "you are so young" as if they think I am talking about retiring 10 years from now . They'll get a surpise soon!
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No one wants to see that they made the wrong choices. It's as simple as that.
Please try to reframe that experience as the positive affirmation of all the times you chose to save rather than indulge yourselves.
In future, use fewer words. It's really nobody's business but your own. And,
♡☆♡☆♡☆CONGRATULATIONS!!!♡☆♡☆♡☆
+1 well said!
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I have to say that I've run into no hostility from friends or family. They've all been supportive. I do get questions along the lines of "how". When I explain living frugally and investing high percentages of income I usually get some push back regarding how impossible it is to raise a family and save that amount in today's economy. At that point I just say something like "If I can do it, it can be done. I'm not an anomaly". I then let the conversation die. I do honestly try to be helpful when asked and try not to come across as gloating.
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Many people don't like to think about the consequences of their choices. Even if a choice is the best for an individual, there's usually an opportunity cost somewhere in the background.
The EASY thing for we FIRE folk is that we are forced to accept each opportunity cost as it comes. Each small convenience or luxury we forego is felt/realized along the way.
The problem with a classic consumer is that they don't truly recognize each opportunity cost that accumulates. In other words, there's no tangible negative event.
I tend to be pretty reserved about discussing FIRE. I usually wait for a good feeling that someone is pretty open thinking financially before I mention anything. I would probably play the retirement dodge game in a general social setting.
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I can't say I have any experience in this area because I have not retired yet (5 years to go). However, in the 2.5 years we have been on this course we have not talked about it with a single person (except you guys, of course), mostly due to the fact that I don't want anything to get back to my work. However, I also do not want to deal with these types of conversations.
I imagine after I retire, there will be some questions but I will deal with them in as few of words as possible and move on. If anyone asks how we did it, my response will be that we made it a priority and spent many years working towards it. End of discussion.
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Short is sweet. Sometimes I tell people,
"I found a good website that told me how to retire early. Do you want the URL?"
You reminded me of a great answer I read, I think it was in The Millionaire Next Door. This woman (who was FIREd), when asked what kind of work she did, replied,
"I manage the family office."
It's a double entendre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_office
Congrats on your success!
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Your success directly challenges how they view themselves in the world. You're probably correct in thinking they thought they were "better" and "more successful" than you.
I'm not sold there is a great way to "deal" with this. Anytime a person accomplishes something of value, the skeptics/critics will appear. If your success negatively impacts your relationship with others (provided you're not being arrogant about it), they weren't truly your friend to begin with.
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I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties. Has anyone else dealt with hostility around this? Figured out the cause of it? Figured out an elegant solution?
As you know, Metta, I FIRE'd last week. When I told the personnel assistant that I was retiring, a bystander in the office blurted out “You're too young to retire!”
Like you I have worked hard and long for ER, so it was mildly annoying to hear that. Yet, very satisfying at the same time, and I too thought of the choices I made that made it possible.
For some reason I thought the comment needed a response. I've always been a bit of a cut up and kidder, so I said the first thing that came to mind: “I'm not the teenager that I appear to be” (I'm in my 50's too).
Deescalating with humor worked well, and there were no more incredulous comments, just nice parting words.
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I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties.
Kim is the one who couldn't deal; you did great.
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"I assure you, the money fairy did not land on my shoulder. We made deliberate choices that led here."
"I know all about this, my husband is a financial planner." Enter the husband into the conversation.
"We will never be able to retire. We just don't make enough." Said the husband.
"We work harder than you! We can't retire," said Kim.
"You had a car and a house more than a decade before we did. We lived in areas you thought of as slums because we were saving about a third of our money even when we were making $25,000 to $35,000 a year together. There is no magic here. Just choices. And there's nothing wrong with any choice. But some lead to early retirement and some don't."
I can't really describe here the looks and hostility I felt from her and I'm puzzled as to why....
The bolded parts would anger a lot of people. The "you" statements while also telling them what they did "wrong" even if you did not mean it that way would set most humans off.
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There is a great book I read a while ago called Nonviolent Communication. Highly recommended.
+1, great book. There's also a book called Words That Work In Business that is about implementing NVC in your work life, which really helped me meet my need for practical examples and practices ;)
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I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties. Has anyone else dealt with hostility around this? Figured out the cause of it? Figured out an elegant solution?
As you know, Metta, I FIRE'd last week. When I told the personnel assistant that I was retiring, a bystander in the office blurted out “You're too young to retire!”
Like you I have worked hard and long for ER, so it was mildly annoying to hear that. Yet, very satisfying at the same time, and I too thought of the choices I made that made it possible.
For some reason I thought the comment needed a response. I've always been a bit of a cut up and kidder, so I said the first thing that came to mind: “I'm not the teenager that I appear to be” (I'm in my 50's too).
Deescalating with humor worked well, and there were no more incredulous comments, just nice parting words.
This is similar to how I deal with hostility about FIRE. It's hard to be offended about someone being hostile to something one thinks of as a joke - so I strive to not take myself too seriously.
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I've come to the conclusion that a lot of financial planners are really salespeople for a variety of investment products.
They know what they've been told to know, which happens to be stuff that validates to themselves what they are selling to others.
I'm laughing at this because I work at a bank and I used to work in a branch and this is exactly what financial planners (and everyone's) job description was. It was all about selling products.
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
Funny. Did she want you to work another four years to make it to 32?
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
Funny. Did she want you to work another four years to make it to 32?
And here I thought retirement was having enough money to never work again, and not having worked a specific number of years. I've been doing it all wrong, it seems...
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
Funny. Did she want you to work another four years to make it to 32?
How much is too much salary? A dollar more than what I'm paid.
Human beings are predictably irrational.
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My plan is to write books so I may just say that I've changed careers back to freelance writer and leave it at that. It means other awkward questions like "What have you written that I have read?" but at least it won't provoke hostility.
I think this is a really good strategy, if you are prepared for lots of questions about your brave career switch.
I recently just did this, and while the new gig is lots of work and will continue to be, and even though people either think I'm insane to have given up my (previous) career - or they treat me as their hero for 'giving it all up' to follow a passion, I haven't gotten into the FIRE dissonance/resentment beyond a few side comments like 'that is really great, if you can afford it'.
In any case, I think the 'I left my job to do X' is likely to get less hostility than 'I retired'
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
Funny. Did she want you to work another four years to make it to 32?
And here I thought retirement was having enough money to never work again, and not having worked a specific number of years. I've been doing it all wrong, it seems...
I have to wonder how the MIL feels about lottery winners. Should they keep working and contributing to society, or is it ok if they quit? If it is ok to quit, is it because they won the money? Or is there a magic dollar amount?
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
Funny. Did she want you to work another four years to make it to 32?
And here I thought retirement was having enough money to never work again, and not having worked a specific number of years. I've been doing it all wrong, it seems...
I have to wonder how the MIL feels about lottery winners. Should they keep working and contributing to society, or is it ok if they quit? If it is ok to quit, is it because they won the money? Or is there a magic dollar amount?
For my MIL, it was mainly a Catholic work ethic issue.
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First they ignore you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
-Gandhi
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First they ignore you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
-Gandhi
Definitely!
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I encountered BS from a family member a couple of years ago. I think it was a combo of jealousy, entitlement, and total lack of mathematical literacy. I think the same forces are at work in this case.😉
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
My dad was pretty incredulous when I once had a conversation with him about how I'll be retiring in a few years (before 50). He has a military pension, is building up a civilian pension, 5 rental properties, monthly bills that are under $1000 ($400 rent, shops at the commissary and cars are paid for) and yet he still works 2 jobs (3 during the holidays) and can't understand why anyone would stop working. My mom is still working as well... they may just be the richest people in the graveyard when they pass.
Some people find meaning from work. I'm struggling with this now as I RE'd a few years ago but now find myself applying for full time work again. It's not always a money thing.
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Congratulations on ER, Metta!
The hostility you encountered is because people want to keep thinking they're better than you. They don't want to hear that they haven't been doing everything "right", and to see someone else with the big ER prize they consider "impossible" leaves them feeling inadequate and angry.
The people closest to you who you want to share with can know you're retired. I'd spin a good story for everyone else.
"I decided to become a writer!"
If anyone asks how you can afford that, give a vague answer like "oh, we'll manage to get by, somehow".
I do like Chrissy's response, below. :)
I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties.
Kim is the one who couldn't deal; you did great.
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My father retired at age 56 he was an Engineer; my mother is from Mexico and back then her English was not the best, she had a heavy accent.
My parents were at a party with a new friend my father meet who was a retired Admiral. There were a lot of high society types for my little town present.
The ladies in the group were talking about what their husbands did for a living. One lady asked my mother what my father did my mother responded oh he doesn't work he is "retarded" a few ladies gasped and one commented he looks normal.
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
My dad was pretty incredulous when I once had a conversation with him about how I'll be retiring in a few years (before 50). He has a military pension, is building up a civilian pension, 5 rental properties, monthly bills that are under $1000 ($400 rent, shops at the commissary and cars are paid for) and yet he still works 2 jobs (3 during the holidays) and can't understand why anyone would stop working. My mom is still working as well... they may just be the richest people in the graveyard when they pass.
it could be some kind of financial fear, but it really sounds like your dad just enjoys going to work, and doesn't quite get that not everybody does. The massive amount of money they're building up is irrelevant. My dad loves playing the martyr about having to work until 70 to pay for my mom's healthcare, I'm pretty sure he secretly would rather be at work and the paycheck is just a bonus. I don't know exactly what their finances are, but just based on what I do know, I'm pretty sure they're well past FI.
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I have to wonder how the MIL feels about lottery winners. Should they keep working and contributing to society, or is it ok if they quit? If it is ok to quit, is it because they won the money? Or is there a magic dollar amount?
For my MIL, it was mainly a Catholic work ethic issue.
Right. But that's the point of my questions.
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it could be some kind of financial fear, but it really sounds like your dad just enjoys going to work, and doesn't quite get that not everybody does. The massive amount of money they're building up is irrelevant. My dad loves playing the martyr about having to work until 70 to pay for my mom's healthcare, I'm pretty sure he secretly would rather be at work and the paycheck is just a bonus. I don't know exactly what their finances are, but just based on what I do know, I'm pretty sure they're well past FI.
My dad closed his business when he was 90 because he had cancer. He may have been short of cash some of the time, but I think he enjoyed the work, too.
Sometimes I still have to fight workaholic, serial-entrepreneur urges. What won out was exhaustion. I come up with good ideas and have to talk myself out of doing them.
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I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties. Has anyone else dealt with hostility around this? Figured out the cause of it? Figured out an elegant solution?
As you know, Metta, I FIRE'd last week. When I told the personnel assistant that I was retiring, a bystander in the office blurted out “You're too young to retire!”
Like you I have worked hard and long for ER, so it was mildly annoying to hear that. Yet, very satisfying at the same time, and I too thought of the choices I made that made it possible.
For some reason I thought the comment needed a response. I've always been a bit of a cut up and kidder, so I said the first thing that came to mind: “I'm not the teenager that I appear to be” (I'm in my 50's too).
Deescalating with humor worked well, and there were no more incredulous comments, just nice parting words.
That's great!
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My plan is to write books so I may just say that I've changed careers back to freelance writer and leave it at that. It means other awkward questions like "What have you written that I have read?" but at least it won't provoke hostility.
I think this is a really good strategy, if you are prepared for lots of questions about your brave career switch.
I recently just did this, and while the new gig is lots of work and will continue to be, and even though people either think I'm insane to have given up my (previous) career - or they treat me as their hero for 'giving it all up' to follow a passion, I haven't gotten into the FIRE dissonance/resentment beyond a few side comments like 'that is really great, if you can afford it'.
In any case, I think the 'I left my job to do X' is likely to get less hostility than 'I retired'
It may just have been her, but now that I've finally stopped traveling and gotten some sleep, I'm ready to write. it was a shock to encounter the hostility. My husband says that there is an entire backstory that I've been blessedly unaware of for years. I'm honestly happy to be back home and away from my sister's friends.
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I encountered BS from a family member a couple of years ago. I think it was a combo of jealousy, entitlement, and total lack of mathematical literacy. I think the same forces are at work in this case.😉
Financial literacy does seem to be a hard thing for many people, despite the fact that the mathematical part of it is easy. It is the psychological part that's difficult I think.
I went over my mother's finances while I was in Denver. She's been feeling unanchored since my father died in April. I offered to help review her investments and spending whenever I'm there and she agreed with such eagerness that you'd hardly think she helped run an accounting practice for decades.
She has enough money for a nice life and my father set her up with a nice diversified portfolio. She's paying higher fees than I would prefer but the fees are not ridiculous and they are buying her a relationship with good firm that has been responsive, kind and helpful to her. So I'm reluctant to remove her from these people and move her to Vanguard.
But what I did for her (interview her about her spending, add up the numbers, create a generous spending plan for her, and review her investments) wasn't complicated. She could have done it herself but she lacks the confidence, I think.
As to my sister's friend, I have no idea why she was so hostile. My husband maintains that it is envy and a solid belief that we were the incompetent poor ones and having that turned around was what was upsetting to her.
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Congratulations on ER, Metta!
The hostility you encountered is because people want to keep thinking they're better than you. They don't want to hear that they haven't been doing everything "right", and to see someone else with the big ER prize they consider "impossible" leaves them feeling inadequate and angry.
The people closest to you who you want to share with can know you're retired. I'd spin a good story for everyone else.
"I decided to become a writer!"
If anyone asks how you can afford that, give a vague answer like "oh, we'll manage to get by, somehow".
I do like Chrissy's response, below. :)
I think that I need to find a better way of dealing with conversation at parties.
Kim is the one who couldn't deal; you did great.
Thank you!
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My father retired at age 56 he was an Engineer; my mother is from Mexico and back then her English was not the best, she had a heavy accent.
My parents were at a party with a new friend my father meet who was a retired Admiral. There were a lot of high society types for my little town present.
The ladies in the group were talking about what their husbands did for a living. One lady asked my mother what my father did my mother responded oh he doesn't work he is "retarded" a few ladies gasped and one commented he looks normal.
LOL! That is a wonderful story!
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The worst hostility I've had to deal with was from my mother-in-law in my first year of FIRE. Regardless of my financial independence, she considered that I was too young to retire and that I should keep contributing work-wise to society. She has since mellowed and we even have a laugh now about whether I am still looking for a job or not. Overall, I have found that people are initially shocked at the concept of FIRE but they eventually get over it. Some take longer than others.
I got the same thing from my MIL when I mentioned that I didn't intend to work full time after I retire from the Navy. She said I hadn't worked long enough to retire. She was a school teacher for 32 years. I'm planning to retire after 28 years in the Navy. I told her that's close enough.
My dad was pretty incredulous when I once had a conversation with him about how I'll be retiring in a few years (before 50). He has a military pension, is building up a civilian pension, 5 rental properties, monthly bills that are under $1000 ($400 rent, shops at the commissary and cars are paid for) and yet he still works 2 jobs (3 during the holidays) and can't understand why anyone would stop working. My mom is still working as well... they may just be the richest people in the graveyard when they pass.
Some people find meaning from work. I'm struggling with this now as I RE'd a few years ago but now find myself applying for full time work again. It's not always a money thing.
When my parents retired, my mother immediately went out to get certified as a Private Investigator so that she could pursue a dream career. (She mostly does genealogical research for people.) When she heard that I was retiring she congratulated me and told me that I could now work at anything I wanted.
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When my parents retired, my mother immediately went out to get certified as a Private Investigator so that she could pursue a dream career.
That is awesome!
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The prevalent mentality these days is that people feel entitled to the big house and the fancy car and the expensive hair salon and the world wide trips and the kids in expensive schools. Even if they have to swim in debt forever they still feel its their right to have all this crap.
So when they are presented with cold, hard facts that by making more educated decisions about their choices that they could have a better life without debt AND with early retirement, they refuse to accept it.
Congratulations on your choices that lead to FIRE!
Very nice line there Stachey.
I've been thinking about a statement to put on business card to tell people about MMM. The line may be a little long but I like it.
I changed it a bit and added a line.
"The prevalent mentality these days is that people feel entitled to the big house and the fancy car and the expensive hair salon and the world wide trips and the kids in expensive schools. Even if they have to swim in debt forever they still feel its their right to have all this crap.
So when they are presented with cold, hard facts that by making more educated decisions about their choices that they could have a better life without debt AND with early retirement, they refuse to accept those cold, hard facts."
Can you be different, and make the choices to have a better life, visit MrMoneyMustache.
Blog--http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/all-the-posts-since-the-beginning-of-time/
Forum--http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php
Maybe the other side can have "The Simple Math to Early Retirement."
Just throwing out an idea.
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The prevalent mentality these days is that people feel entitled to the big house and the fancy car and the expensive hair salon and the world wide trips and the kids in expensive schools. Even if they have to swim in debt forever they still feel its their right to have all this crap.
So when they are presented with cold, hard facts that by making more educated decisions about their choices that they could have a better life without debt AND with early retirement, they refuse to accept it.
Congratulations on your choices that lead to FIRE!
Very nice line there Stachey.
I've been thinking about a statement to put on business card to tell people about MMM. The line may be a little long but I like it.
I changed it a bit and added a line.
"The prevalent mentality these days is that people feel entitled to the big house and the fancy car and the expensive hair salon and the world wide trips and the kids in expensive schools. Even if they have to swim in debt forever they still feel its their right to have all this crap.
So when they are presented with cold, hard facts that by making more educated decisions about their choices that they could have a better life without debt AND with early retirement, they refuse to accept those cold, hard facts."
Can you be different, and make the choices to have a better life, visit MrMoneyMustache.
Blog--http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/all-the-posts-since-the-beginning-of-time/
Forum--http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php
Maybe the other side can have "The Simple Math to Early Retirement."
Just throwing out an idea.
Thank you very much BTDretire!
I don't mind being quoted...that's very nice.
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Both my DH and I talked about having pensions from the government for years. A few of our friends were self employed and would encourage us to do it whenever we were having a tough time at work. We would repeat why we stayed. Then at 58 I retired. My DH got laid off soon after at 53 but we both could pull our pensions. We decided to sell our bigger house and buy a smaller 1 story one in town that was much cheaper as it needed a ton of work and my DH was very handy. So before I retire I start getting some messages on my work phone at night telling me I am making a big mistake on both fronts. Then when we do these things we get open hostility. They are 9 years older and still need to work. Previously they said they love their work so much they never wanted to retire. Now they were singing a different tune. Then they inherit 350k and what do they do? Buy a bigger house of course (3000 sq ft for 2 people). They can't sell their other home because it is under water so they rent it. Their SS is low due to not claiming enough income for many years. Finally after about almost 2 years of crap I sever the friendships. The rest of our friendships remain intact. I was really shocked when this happened. If either of them becomes unable to work they will lose everything ( age 71). Really a sad situation.
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I've come to the conclusion that a lot of financial planners are really salespeople for a variety of investment products.
They know what they've been told to know, which happens to be stuff that validates to themselves what they are selling to others.
Couldn't agree more - and we count our IFP in the opposite group. Last year, we made 15.93% return on our investments - before our contributions - and he charged 0.5%. It took us a long time to find someone who would work for us on our terms.
We're good with that.
Why do you need a financial adviser at all?
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I encountered BS from a family member a couple of years ago. I think it was a combo of jealousy, entitlement, and total lack of mathematical literacy. I think the same forces are at work in this case.😉
Financial literacy does seem to be a hard thing for many people, despite the fact that the mathematical part of it is easy. It is the psychological part that's difficult I think.
I went over my mother's finances while I was in Denver. She's been feeling unanchored since my father died in April. I offered to help review her investments and spending whenever I'm there and she agreed with such eagerness that you'd hardly think she helped run an accounting practice for decades.
She has enough money for a nice life and my father set her up with a nice diversified portfolio. She's paying higher fees than I would prefer but the fees are not ridiculous and they are buying her a relationship with good firm that has been responsive, kind and helpful to her. So I'm reluctant to remove her from these people and move her to Vanguard.
But what I did for her (interview her about her spending, add up the numbers, create a generous spending plan for her, and review her investments) wasn't complicated. She could have done it herself but she lacks the confidence, I think.
As to my sister's friend, I have no idea why she was so hostile. My husband maintains that it is envy and a solid belief that we were the incompetent poor ones and having that turned around was what was upsetting to her.
My guess is that your father handled the money, or at least steered the ship. My mom pays the bills, but my dad has always made the the overarching decisions. What you end up with is someone who can pay bills on time but lacks confidence or ability to manage the big picture. It's fairly common - women traditionally managed the household but didn't "bother their pretty heads" with money matters. It's a hard mentality to fight, especially with older people.
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Both my DH and I talked about having pensions from the government for years. A few of our friends were self employed and would encourage us to do it whenever we were having a tough time at work. We would repeat why we stayed. Then at 58 I retired. My DH got laid off soon after at 53 but we both could pull our pensions. We decided to sell our bigger house and buy a smaller 1 story one in town that was much cheaper as it needed a ton of work and my DH was very handy. So before I retire I start getting some messages on my work phone at night telling me I am making a big mistake on both fronts. Then when we do these things we get open hostility. They are 9 years older and still need to work. Previously they said they love their work so much they never wanted to retire. Now they were singing a different tune. Then they inherit 350k and what do they do? Buy a bigger house of course (3000 sq ft for 2 people). They can't sell their other home because it is under water so they rent it. Their SS is low due to not claiming enough income for many years. Finally after about almost 2 years of crap I sever the friendships. The rest of our friendships remain intact. I was really shocked when this happened. If either of them becomes unable to work they will lose everything ( age 71). Really a sad situation.
I find this sort of thing mind-boggling and very sad. I'm sorry they became hostile. I think this hostility is perhaps some sort of projection? Perhaps they are angry with themselves and project that to us? I say that because this weekend one of my friends turned kind of weird after I'd said, "One of the best things about leaving my job has been having time to cook for everyone." (He likes my cooking and had been effusively complimenting the food.)
He responded with, "This is why everyone hates you."
I must have given him a surprised look because he quickly followed it by, "I mean we all want to do what you did but none of us will get to do it. I'm happy for you but I envy you. I still like you. But I hate you too."
It was such a strange conversation from my gaming buddy that I talked with my husband about it after the game. These are people who actually make more than we do and also do not have children. So technically he could do what we did if he truly wanted that. But he doesn't believe that he can. I think one of the first steps may be believing that freedom is attainable. If he doesn't believe that freedom can be had by anyone, he has to come up with some sort of justification for why it worked for us. Or he has to change his mind and become enlightened. Enlightenment is probably harder.
I think back to my moment of enlightenment and it was after reading Your Money or Your Life and even then I wasn't certain it applied to me. What did apply to me was living in a way that wasn't one problem away from catastrophe. That was the point when we decided to live on half our income. Not to achieve financial freedom but to put off financial ruin. When I found Mr MMM, that showed me that freedom was possible on less than I thought and that I was already on my way. Further I had to come to the conclusion that freedom was worth buying and I wasn't sure that it was for many decades of my life. About five years ago, I decided that freedom was worth just about anything (except my relationship with my husband).
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I encountered BS from a family member a couple of years ago. I think it was a combo of jealousy, entitlement, and total lack of mathematical literacy. I think the same forces are at work in this case.😉
Financial literacy does seem to be a hard thing for many people, despite the fact that the mathematical part of it is easy. It is the psychological part that's difficult I think.
I went over my mother's finances while I was in Denver. She's been feeling unanchored since my father died in April. I offered to help review her investments and spending whenever I'm there and she agreed with such eagerness that you'd hardly think she helped run an accounting practice for decades.
She has enough money for a nice life and my father set her up with a nice diversified portfolio. She's paying higher fees than I would prefer but the fees are not ridiculous and they are buying her a relationship with good firm that has been responsive, kind and helpful to her. So I'm reluctant to remove her from these people and move her to Vanguard.
But what I did for her (interview her about her spending, add up the numbers, create a generous spending plan for her, and review her investments) wasn't complicated. She could have done it herself but she lacks the confidence, I think.
As to my sister's friend, I have no idea why she was so hostile. My husband maintains that it is envy and a solid belief that we were the incompetent poor ones and having that turned around was what was upsetting to her.
My guess is that your father handled the money, or at least steered the ship. My mom pays the bills, but my dad has always made the the overarching decisions. What you end up with is someone who can pay bills on time but lacks confidence or ability to manage the big picture. It's fairly common - women traditionally managed the household but didn't "bother their pretty heads" with money matters. It's a hard mentality to fight, especially with older people.
My mother paid the bills and ensured that the business ran well. She chased people to get them to pay and kept things on an even keel. She didn't bother with the investments, which was my father's area of expertise. (He was an accountant and a stock broker.) She has a very low risk tolerance and forced the sale of some of their stocks in 2008/2009 when my father was ill and unable to prevent it. (We've asked her to promise to avoid doing that in the future before talking to one of us.) So even though she dealt with the finances, she doesn't have the stomach for anything that has the slightest amount of risk and doesn't really understand the stock or bonds markets. I know that she would like to put all her money into T-bills and municipal bonds and we have thus far managed to talk her out of it. She has a 50/50 well-diversified portfolio that is actually pretty impressively put together. I suspect that we are going to have to deal with the attendant risks of any stock portfolio before long. But I kind of hate dismantling what my father built for her.
So your guess is right, though it seems to me that her self-confidence has diminished since my father's death. This is part of why I value the good relationship she has with the firm that manages her portfolio.
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Metta, it sure sounds like your friend is jealous which is sad. Some of my friends also work for the state and are in my position when they retire and some are older and happily retired. We lost 2 couples over this but that's life. We have also picked up some new friends along the way.
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I recently received some hostility from a long time friend. I'm not yet retired but planning on it soon. I think the friend was just frustrated that they were not as far along the path and may need to work ~10 more years. But they would still be retiring at 50 instead of 40, which is really good. Because is has been such a long friendship I am reluctant to let it go. Instead I tried to put myself in their shoes and think about how I would feel if I were just finding out about the possibility of FIRE now and had to work another 10 years. I probably would feel the same way. Although I wouldn't express hostility about it. In fact I sometimes envy some of the younger folks here who figured this stuff out in their 20s and are FIREing in their 30s.
I guess my point is that having compassion for those people who express hostility at your good fortune or your success through hard work and good planning can help you not feel so bad.
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I recently received some hostility from a long time friend. I'm not yet retired but planning on it soon. I think the friend was just frustrated that they were not as far along the path and may need to work ~10 more years. But they would still be retiring at 50 instead of 40, which is really good. Because is has been such a long friendship I am reluctant to let it go. Instead I tried to put myself in their shoes and think about how I would feel if I were just finding out about the possibility of FIRE now and had to work another 10 years. I probably would feel the same way. Although I wouldn't express hostility about it. In fact I sometimes envy some of the younger folks here who figured this stuff out in their 20s and are FIREing in their 30s.
I guess my point is that having compassion for those people who express hostility at your good fortune or your success through hard work and good planning can help you not feel so bad.
Envy may be a predictable reaction to other's success. Hostility is not, nor should it be accepted.
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Both my DH and I talked about having pensions from the government for years. A few of our friends were self employed and would encourage us to do it whenever we were having a tough time at work. We would repeat why we stayed. Then at 58 I retired. My DH got laid off soon after at 53 but we both could pull our pensions. We decided to sell our bigger house and buy a smaller 1 story one in town that was much cheaper as it needed a ton of work and my DH was very handy. So before I retire I start getting some messages on my work phone at night telling me I am making a big mistake on both fronts. Then when we do these things we get open hostility. They are 9 years older and still need to work. Previously they said they love their work so much they never wanted to retire. Now they were singing a different tune. Then they inherit 350k and what do they do? Buy a bigger house of course (3000 sq ft for 2 people). They can't sell their other home because it is under water so they rent it. Their SS is low due to not claiming enough income for many years. Finally after about almost 2 years of crap I sever the friendships. The rest of our friendships remain intact. I was really shocked when this happened. If either of them becomes unable to work they will lose everything ( age 71). Really a sad situation.
I find this sort of thing mind-boggling and very sad. I'm sorry they became hostile. I think this hostility is perhaps some sort of projection? Perhaps they are angry with themselves and project that to us? I say that because this weekend one of my friends turned kind of weird after I'd said, "One of the best things about leaving my job has been having time to cook for everyone." (He likes my cooking and had been effusively complimenting the food.)
He responded with, "This is why everyone hates you."
I must have given him a surprised look because he quickly followed it by, "I mean we all want to do what you did but none of us will get to do it. I'm happy for you but I envy you. I still like you. But I hate you too."
I have conflicted thoughts about your friend. On one hand, I'm glad you guys are comfortable enough to be so honest with each other. At the same time, it's sad he isn't simply happy for your success.
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I agree.
A friend should be happy for you when good things happen in your life.
And everyone should view FIREd people as motivation for what is possible in their own lives. They should ask questions about how they can achieve it for themselves. Here is someone standing in front of them having done something that they want to accomplish themselves...they should ask a million questions about how to go about it. Instead they sit there and feel sorry for themselves.
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*snip*
I find this sort of thing mind-boggling and very sad. I'm sorry they became hostile. I think this hostility is perhaps some sort of projection? Perhaps they are angry with themselves and project that to us? I say that because this weekend one of my friends turned kind of weird after I'd said, "One of the best things about leaving my job has been having time to cook for everyone." (He likes my cooking and had been effusively complimenting the food.)
He responded with, "This is why everyone hates you."
I must have given him a surprised look because he quickly followed it by, "I mean we all want to do what you did but none of us will get to do it. I'm happy for you but I envy you. I still like you. But I hate you too."
I have conflicted thoughts about your friend. On one hand, I'm glad you guys are comfortable enough to be so honest with each other. At the same time, it's sad he isn't simply happy for your success.
I have used "hate" in this way before. It's not really hate, just envy and "I want to be in your place." For example, my favorite roommate in college (who is a wonderful person and I love dearly) has thick, black, gorgeous locks of hair on her head. Meanwhile, I have a thin braid. I would say "Oh, [roommate], I love you but I hate you and your perfect hair." She would laugh and respond in kind. I am happy for her that she has this naturally beautiful physical feature and would not take it from her to bestow on myself, but I want it too!
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Hmm, Metta, I wonder if maybe it's not time to find some new friends. I, for one, would be happy to be cooked for by someone like you. I enjoy cooking myself, and I also enjoy eating other people's cooking!
All kidding aside, I sincerely believe that not all relationships (friendships or romantic) are meant to last a lifetime. In the same way that I don't still hang out with most of the friends I had in high school or college, I don't expect to stay in close touch with many of my friends from work now that I'm gone, either. People change over time: their priorities, their interests, their likes and dislikes. The semi-retired me has very different concerns and interests than the working me had. I don't really care about the backbiting stories from my old job any more, for example. It's hard for me to even fake being interested in hearing them these days. :-p
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I agree. I'd be pissed if I cooked for someone and got that reaction.
Libertea, I am still working and still don't want to hear this backbiting talk about work stuff...or any work stuff. I went to a birthday lunch with some female friend coworkers and got bored with the work talk during lunch. I kept trying to steer the conversation away from work. I guess I am a little different from them in that respect.
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My friend is an ok guy. He doesn't normally use "hate" in that way, so it startled me and started me thinking. Up until last year he and his wife made more than my husband and me. Like us, they have no children and don't intend to have children. So his comment set me back on my heels. My impression is that he was confused and (as I said) unwilling to become enlightened just now.
I think that if I am doing this, then people should look into their lives and say to themselves, "Metta is able to save enough to leave her job. How can I do that?" But that doesn't seem to be the reaction I get. Mostly people just look confused or a few have a moment of hostility.
Hmm, Metta, I wonder if maybe it's not time to find some new friends. I, for one, would be happy to be cooked for by someone like you. I enjoy cooking myself, and I also enjoy eating other people's cooking!
All kidding aside, I sincerely believe that not all relationships (friendships or romantic) are meant to last a lifetime. In the same way that I don't still hang out with most of the friends I had in high school or college, I don't expect to stay in close touch with many of my friends from work now that I'm gone, either. People change over time: their priorities, their interests, their likes and dislikes. The semi-retired me has very different concerns and interests than the working me had. I don't really care about the backbiting stories from my old job any more, for example. It's hard for me to even fake being interested in hearing them these days. :-p
I would be delighted to cook for you. I love feeding people. This is one of my luxuries that keeps my grocery bill higher than it could be. But what is life without a bit of friendship and food?
I hope my relationships will last. Most of mine have, though in a less intense fashion.
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If only I lived in your area! I'd love to share a meal and pick your brains about FIRE.
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I think these kinds of behaviors are pretty common and come from a few things.
- Fitting in is a large part of most societies and early retirement goes against fitting in for most.
- People are jealous of your FIRE, but unwilling to make the cuts necessary to achieve this themselves and are mad at your for showing that unlike their common opinion on it, it is not impossible. By doing this you are taking away their excuse that it can't be done and instead it makes them responsible for their own actions.
- Growing up everyone in ingrained with the idea that you work until ~65 and that's just how it is so most have no idea about anything in relation to how retire earlier. Even for those slightly more rebellious retiring at 55-60 is considered a great feat. You are countering the common narrative here.
- Unfortunately finances are seen as a personal thing and even by talking about yours they likely feel judged for their financial choices that lead them to not being able to FIRE.
- In older couples they may feel offended that someone who is a lot younger than them has things figured out better than they do despite them having more life experience.
Very few people are actually predisposed to even try for FIRE and fewer probably succeed.
In cases where the person did not know what you were working towards until you FIREd you are also likely upsetting what they believe was the hierarchy between them and you. Like you mentioned about your sister's friend potentially thinking that they were better off financially due to their spending and your lack of spending. The feeling that they were wrong all along and that you are financially much higher than they are is likely upsetting too.
I will discuss FIRE with direct family, however unless someone specifically asks about it and shows an interest I'm not planning on bringing it up to friends, coworkers or strangers.
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I don't really see that she made wrong choices. She made choices that were important to her and her family and I'm really OK with that. Everyone is different. She has social capital that I don't have because I didn't spend the time or money to join the groups she joined. Choices matter.
I agree. She made her choices; you made yours. Most people on this board have a similar mindset when it comes to spending and saving, but we don't have a right to tell other people they're wrong because their choices don't mirror our own.
Read these sentences and try to put yourself in her shoes. They are true of course, but imagine how they sound to the other person. Ask yourself if these could be interpreted as condescending and judgemental.
Yeah, I can see how Kim could've taken these comments as condescending and judgemental. In the future, I'd suggest you talk ONLY about your choices -- don't say "you had a house first" or "we lived in places you consider slums". Her choices aren't connected to yours at all, so don't bring HER into it at all. Instead, say, "We rented for a long time, we camped instead of taking expensive vacations, we bought used household goods, we cooked at home, we made do with one car." Focus on we, we, we ... this is how WE did it.
Yeah, she'll mentally fill in the blanks, "I bought a big house, I flew to the islands -- sometimes twice a year, I have never been inside a Goodwill, I eat out several times a week, and I gave my kids cars for their 16th birthdays." But let her connect those dots. YOU don't need to say those things out loud. Nothing but praise for your accomplishment, but comparing yourself to her does make you look a bit petty -- and I don't think you meant it that way.
I casually throw in reading early retirement blogs
I think people KNOW where to find this information; I certainly knew about it before the internet and blogs were "a thing". Most people don't want to think about it TODAY because that'd mean taking action TODAY, and it's more comfortable to think there's time for all that later.
Kim is the one who couldn't deal; you did great.
I agree that she's the one who has a problem. Her problem is that she can't believe you did something she never considered.
I don't think you did "great". If you had, you wouldn't be feeling awkward about the conversation and wouldn't be bringing it up now. I think you did "okay", and I think next time such a topic comes up -- which will happen somewhere, sometime -- I think you'll be ready to handle it more gracefully, and you'll come away feeling better about it.
Financial literacy does seem to be a hard thing for many people, despite the fact that the mathematical part of it is easy. It is the psychological part that's difficult I think.
I think it's the self-discipline. Everyone knows that we should all save for our futures, but LOTS of people talk themselves into thinking that it's okay to wait a while: I can't save now because it's more important to get into a house ... to furnish the house ... the kids are only young once ... daycare eats up my whole salary ... braces, insurance, cars, college ... if you lack self-discipline, there's ALWAYS something that seems more important than saving. Yet I don't think that means people don't KNOW they should be saving.
My husband maintains that it is envy and a solid belief that we were the incompetent poor ones and having that turned around was what was upsetting to her.
I believe that. You said she's a social person, a member of all the right groups ... whether she consciously ranks people or not, she probably did think you were not doing as well as she was, and it's threatening to have her assumptions proven wrong.
Envy may be a predictable reaction to other's success. Hostility is not, nor should it be accepted.
I agree with that, but I'll throw in this thought in terms of the OP's original comments: Kim was shocked and blindsided by the news that someone her own age could retire. Her response was foolish and a bit hostile. In this situation, I'd give her time to assimilate this information, to come to grips with the fact that the world isn't completely as she believed it to be, to accept that her assumptions about these "Lovable Losers" was wrong. I'd definitely wait to see how she behaves next time the group gets together.
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MrsPete, you make some very excellent points!
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I think it's the self-discipline. Everyone knows that we should all save for our futures, but LOTS of people talk themselves into thinking that it's okay to wait a while: I can't save now because it's more important to get into a house ... to furnish the house ... the kids are only young once ... daycare eats up my whole salary ... braces, insurance, cars, college ... if you lack self-discipline, there's ALWAYS something that seems more important than saving. Yet I don't think that means people don't KNOW they should be saving.
I just wanted to add that all of these expenses are real expenses. We've just paid for braces for my daughter. It was $5k over 2 years. We've paid for daycare and it did eat most of my wife's salary. We did buy a house because we had 3 kids. I don't regret any of these decisions.
We've also managed to save I think a fair amount of change. So you can have these things and still save.
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Envy may be a predictable reaction to other's success. Hostility is not, nor should it be accepted.
I agree with that, but I'll throw in this thought in terms of the OP's original comments: Kim was shocked and blindsided by the news that someone her own age could retire. Her response was foolish and a bit hostile. In this situation, I'd give her time to assimilate this information, to come to grips with the fact that the world isn't completely as she believed it to be, to accept that her assumptions about these "Lovable Losers" was wrong. I'd definitely wait to see how she behaves next time the group gets together.
Taken in context, I can understand what you mean. Hostility on the part of the FIREe can breed hostility in others.
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Biggest takeaway for me is your friends husband should be fired
This was my thought as well. The cobbler's children truly have no shoes.