Cautionary tale

[retired?]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

[Frankies Girl]

I wouldn't be bored in the same circumstances because I have a ton of hobbies that are not location-specific, or require others to participate. Oh wait... I AM in those same circumstances sort of. I live in a vanilla bedroom burb outside of a large city, but it takes a while to drive to anything interesting in many cases. And I FIREd last year, and the husband still works so I'm largely on my own during working hours. And he's not quitting until maybe the end of the year (we'll see).

You can do plenty of things without the family. You don't have to do everything together all the time. That's weird that you think you'd rather work ~anywhere~ instead of quit and reclaim your time/life, and advise others to do the same. Dude, find something fun and interesting to fill your time. You were a completely independent personality before marriage and kids, right? So what happened? Take some classes, build something, improve your mind or body - you honestly can't think of anything you'd like to do without having the whole fam damily along?

I just discovered a cool pocket park wilderness reserve and now go exploring/running there several times a week, volunteer at a local wildlife rehab (feeding baby squirrels is AMAZEBALLS), got some bird books and working on identifying some of the local fauna, training for a 5K, and I play with lots of other hobbies in my free time. When the husband is home, we go do other fun stuff. Can't recall being bored at all so far and mostly I've been super busy (with bouts of sitting on my ass reading all day because I can).

I'd suggest you develop such type of hobbies/interests. Work on cars? Build things? Art of some kind? Gardening? There are SO MANY THINGS out there... and I guess that circles back around to the first sentence of your post - not calling you a loser, but you should step outside your comfort zone/standard hobbies/interests if you're experiencing boredom. Boredom kind of implies you're boring... are you? ;)

[EscapeVelocity2020]

In our limited experience, it was great to be FI when our second child was born and my wife was willing to stay home, so we did get one parent to RE.  I worried about health insurance, so I switched jobs to one that was less stressful, more flexible, and involved some family expat opportunities.  While the kids were young, we lived in Norway and Dubai, but now that they are older (10 and 12), we are settled back down in the US.  But my wife tired of the SAH monotony day in and day out, cooking and cleaning and the small social circle, so she now works at their school - so there's always the idea of taking a 'fun job'.  I have reinforced to her that we are FI, but she likes having a routine and adding to the school district while being on 'the inside' (as opposed to SAH's that volunteer). 

Personally, I was chomping at the bit to FIRE after I got bit by the MMM bug ~2012 while we were living in Dubai.  It was a fresh take on FIRE and he made it look sexy and easy.  Alas, we returned to the US and I realized that I'm not a homebody at heart, I am a geeky engineer and working on project teams is as badass as I can hope to be.  I started a blog, but didn't like the idea of putting personal details online, so I couldn't even follow in those footsteps...  But life ain't broke, so I'm not going to try to fix it.

However, once kids are in college, I think FIRE is a huge win!  Probably not for the greatest of reasons (e.g. low earned income means opportunities for financial aid, potential to change state residency, healthcare subsidies, tax mitigation, selling the house means that the kids can't come back to 'the nest', etc.).  The perks of FIRE and freedom are coming up, so I see a silver lining for us in the not too distant future :)

[homestead neohio]

I wouldn't be bored in the same circumstances because I have a ton of hobbies that are not location-specific, or require others to participate. Oh wait... I AM in those same circumstances sort of. I live in a vanilla bedroom burb outside of a large city, but it takes a while to drive to anything interesting in many cases. And I FIREd last year, and the husband still works so I'm largely on my own during working hours. And he's not quitting until maybe the end of the year (we'll see).

You can do plenty of things without the family. You don't have to do everything together all the time. That's weird that you think you'd rather work ~anywhere~ instead of quit and reclaim your time/life, and advise others to do the same. Dude, find something fun and interesting to fill your time. You were a completely independent personality before marriage and kids, right? So what happened? Take some classes, build something, improve your mind or body - you honestly can't think of anything you'd like to do without having the whole fam damily along?

I just discovered a cool pocket park wilderness reserve and now go exploring/running there several times a week, volunteer at a local wildlife rehab (feeding baby squirrels is AMAZEBALLS), got some bird books and working on identifying some of the local fauna, training for a 5K, and I play with lots of other hobbies in my free time. When the husband is home, we go do other fun stuff. Can't recall being bored at all so far and mostly I've been super busy (with bouts of sitting on my ass reading all day because I can).

I'd suggest you develop such type of hobbies/interests. Work on cars? Build things? Art of some kind? Gardening? There are SO MANY THINGS out there... and I guess that circles back around to the first sentence of your post - not calling you a loser, but you should step outside your comfort zone/standard hobbies/interests if you're experiencing boredom. Boredom kind of implies you're boring... are you? ;)

+1.  Location has very little to do with finding interesting ways to grow and enjoy life.

... My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit....

Also, circumstances and expectations are different for all couples in a long term relationship, but OP situation could be adversely impacting the marriage.  If OP is comfy with the 'stache and SWR, but the wife is not and went back to work to offset costs, there could be resentment there, even if there is no complaints spoken.  Does the wife have a different risk tolerance?  Could this be solved with more discussion and education about SWR, monitoring early FIRE years for sequence of returns risk, etc?  Did you push for a riskier early FIRE date because you were unhappy at work and that affected you much more than her?  Based on who has worked how long and been how miserable doing that work, is it fair for her to continue working while you RE?  How long will she have to work to be comfortable with the 'stache and SWR?  I'm not asking for details and don't care about specifics, but that might be worth considering. 

[retired?]

I FIRE'd pretty quickly.  Not early (I was 45), but in a quick manner.  I became fed up with my job and the corporate world in general.  I did a NW review and quit.  Thus, there wasn't really any planning.  I mean I saved well, but the actual act of FIRE-ing wasn't planned.

While working, where I lived was dictated by career moves (i.e. if there was a good job, whether with a new company or internal, I was willing to move).  Had I planned FIREing better, for my last move, I would have chosen a place based on me having a lot of free time.  I think where you live does matter - while working (often pointed out in this forum and in MMM posts) and in retirement.  But, when I was working and essentially only had free time on weekends, it didn't matter as much.

That's my advice - if FIRE is coming up and you have the flexibility to move, choose some place you'd really enjoy.  I don't have that flexibility with kids entering high school soon (personal choice to not screw them over).  Choose a place where you can do interesting things within a few miles.  And, if you feel it will be hard to fill your free time, perhaps downshift to a more enjoyable (perhaps less paying, but less stressful) job rather than not working at all.

I'm considering jobs that would be more satisfying.  I can afford to not work, but it hasn't been fulfilling.  I do a lot of reading, gardening, etc., which is nice, but something is missing.

Perhaps the underlying advice is really that one should plan the transition to FIRE.

[mucchad]

Thanks for sharing, and keep it coming. What are things you tried?
I have seen it in two of my parents generation. Having worked for 20+ years, and achieving FI, they retired and had a tough transition to all the free time, loss of routine and a sense of missing a bigger purpose. One found religion, another tried to become a mentor.
Since seeing them, I have begun to dread the transition. 

[retired?]

[/quote]

Also, circumstances and expectations are different for all couples in a long term relationship, but OP situation could be adversely impacting the marriage.  If OP is comfy with the 'stache and SWR, but the wife is not and went back to work to offset costs, there could be resentment there, even if there is no complaints spoken.  Does the wife have a different risk tolerance?  Could this be solved with more discussion and education about SWR, monitoring early FIRE years for sequence of returns risk, etc?  Did you push for a riskier early FIRE date because you were unhappy at work and that affected you much more than her?  Based on who has worked how long and been how miserable doing that work, is it fair for her to continue working while you RE?  How long will she have to work to be comfortable with the 'stache and SWR?  I'm not asking for details and don't care about specifics, but that might be worth considering.
[/quote]




It is not the SWR, rather she likes to spend more.  So, even if we agree on 4% or whatever, she would calculate expenses as being a decent bit higher than I would and so gets a larger required nest egg.  She could have a lower risk tolerance, but the source of that would be a lack of understanding.  She has no interest in finances.....other than knowing we have no debt.

She stopped working when we had our first child.  Now our youngest is 12.  I think she likely would have gone back to work even if I had not quit....a sense of being productive and interacting with more people.  But, now, if I asked why she went back to work the answer would likely be a combination of "to have something to do" and "don't we need the money?".

We do have different views on what is a "need" and what is a "want", but that's always been the case.  If she wants to work to cover that then I'm not going to try to convince her otherwise until the kids are gone. 

[retired?]

Thanks for sharing, and keep it coming. What are things you tried?
I have seen it in two of my parents generation. Having worked for 20+ years, and achieving FI, they retired and had a tough transition to all the free time, loss of routine and a sense of missing a bigger purpose. One found religion, another tried to become a mentor.
Since seeing them, I have begun to dread the transition.

Tutoring is the main thing, but I want to make it grow.  Tons of flexibility.  If I can get it up to 20+ hours a week, I think I would be fairly satisfied.

While working full time, I didn't have much time to develop hobbies.  It's not too late, of course, but I suppose I would have worked on that more.  I read a buttload, but I need more stuff that gets me out of the house.

[AnotherFI_IT_Guy]

I'm in a very similar situation to OP and it is very frustrating. 

On the one hand, life is awesome, we realistically have all the money we will really ever need, kids are doing well, everyone is healthy, etc. 

On the other hand, there are all of the things that FI people "should" be able to do that I just can't (really choose not to).   Life is still constrained by the kids school schedules and my wife's work schedule. 

And, I feel like a real ass about complaining about this, even if it is only in my own head (and now here).

But, trying to RE with a working spouse and kids in school is very different than the freedom I was hoping for.  I hate the feeling that I'm just waiting for the kids to graduate high school so that my real RE can begin (in 6 years).

[Metric Mouse]

In our limited experience, it was great to be FI when our second child was born and my wife was willing to stay home, so we did get one parent to RE.  I worried about health insurance, so I switched jobs to one that was less stressful, more flexible, and involved some family expat opportunities.  While the kids were young, we lived in Norway and Dubai, but now that they are older (10 and 12), we are settled back down in the US.  But my wife tired of the SAH monotony day in and day out, cooking and cleaning and the small social circle, so she now works at their school - so there's always the idea of taking a 'fun job'.  I have reinforced to her that we are FI, but she likes having a routine and adding to the school district while being on 'the inside' (as opposed to SAH's that volunteer). 

Personally, I was chomping at the bit to FIRE after I got bit by the MMM bug ~2012 while we were living in Dubai.  It was a fresh take on FIRE and he made it look sexy and easy.  Alas, we returned to the US and I realized that I'm not a homebody at heart, I am a geeky engineer and working on project teams is as badass as I can hope to be.  I started a blog, but didn't like the idea of putting personal details online, so I couldn't even follow in those footsteps...  But life ain't broke, so I'm not going to try to fix it.

However, once kids are in college, I think FIRE is a huge win!  Probably not for the greatest of reasons (e.g. low earned income means opportunities for financial aid, potential to change state residency, healthcare subsidies, tax mitigation, selling the house means that the kids can't come back to 'the nest', etc.).  The perks of FIRE and freedom are coming up, so I see a silver lining for us in the not too distant future :)

I'm in a very similar situation to OP and it is very frustrating. 

On the one hand, life is awesome, we realistically have all the money we will really ever need, kids are doing well, everyone is healthy, etc. 

On the other hand, there are all of the things that FI people "should" be able to do that I just can't (really choose not to).   Life is still constrained by the kids school schedules and my wife's work schedule. 

And, I feel like a real ass about complaining about this, even if it is only in my own head (and now here).

But, trying to RE with a working spouse and kids in school is very different than the freedom I was hoping for.  I hate the feeling that I'm just waiting for the kids to graduate high school so that my real RE can begin (in 6 years).

I really hope this isn't the case for everyone with kids. I can't imagine that in 10-12 years I'll be sitting around looking at XS, waiting for the clock to tick away until the kids leave for college. There's just SO MUCH TO DO. Every. Single. Day.  I can't wait to share that with some gross little poop monsters.

[ender]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

You could homeschool your kids?

My spouse and I talk about the situation some - where we're able to FIRE but have kids that are location constrained. We have considered that homeschooling is a great option for this, perhaps too late if your kids are already that old.


Your problem isn't your kids but that your wife isn't wanting to FIRE herself. I would not focus on the kids aspect but rather your marriage. You can't change the situation with your kids, but you most definitely can affect your marriage.

[dude]

Hopefully, I won't be able to relate to this cautionary tale.  I have SO MANY things I would rather be doing.  First and foremost is rock climbing -- and I'll be doing that as a second "hobby career," so that should keep me relatively busy.  Then there's going to the gym, hiking (my god, there are miles and miles of hiking trails in the White Mountains I've yet to explore), jiu jitsu, snowboarding, volunteering, gardening, working around the house on light maintenance stuff.  I cannot foresee possibly running out of things to do once I stop collecting a paycheck.

[lthenderson]

While working full time, I didn't have much time to develop hobbies.  It's not too late, of course, but I suppose I would have worked on that more.  I read a buttload, but I need more stuff that gets me out of the house.

I am in your situation but am one whose time is completely full with hobbies to do at home AND volunteering outside the home. In less than 4 years since I FIREd, I am on a city committee, on the local schoolboard, president of a fraternal organization and a member of two other groups that meet once a month. I have two children still at home so I do a lot of volunteer work for their school as well.

My advice on the best way to find things to do outside the house, go outside your house and ask around.

[SteveRyeCurd]

Hopefully, I won't be able to relate to this cautionary tale.  I have SO MANY things I would rather be doing.  First and foremost is rock climbing -- and I'll be doing that as a second "hobby career," so that should keep me relatively busy.  Then there's going to the gym, hiking (my god, there are miles and miles of hiking trails in the White Mountains I've yet to explore), jiu jitsu, snowboarding, volunteering, gardening, working around the house on light maintenance stuff.  I cannot foresee possibly running out of things to do once I stop collecting a paycheck.

You just mentioned several fun things to do that:
1) Depend on location (e.g. there's no rock climbing in most of the Midwest)
2) Are hard to do if you're tied down to kids' schooling schedule

If you live in a boring city and have the enormous responsibility of raising kids, then much of the fun stuff everyone talks about on this forum is out of reach, even if you're FIREd.

[dude]

Hopefully, I won't be able to relate to this cautionary tale.  I have SO MANY things I would rather be doing.  First and foremost is rock climbing -- and I'll be doing that as a second "hobby career," so that should keep me relatively busy.  Then there's going to the gym, hiking (my god, there are miles and miles of hiking trails in the White Mountains I've yet to explore), jiu jitsu, snowboarding, volunteering, gardening, working around the house on light maintenance stuff.  I cannot foresee possibly running out of things to do once I stop collecting a paycheck.

You just mentioned several fun things to do that:
1) Depend on location (e.g. there's no rock climbing in most of the Midwest)
2) Are hard to do if you're tied down to kids' schooling schedule

If you live in a boring city and have the enormous responsibility of raising kids, then much of the fun stuff everyone talks about on this forum is out of reach, even if you're FIREd.

True that.  I purposely chose my current location for the proximity to the things I love to do.

[retired?]

Hopefully, I won't be able to relate to this cautionary tale.  I have SO MANY things I would rather be doing.  First and foremost is rock climbing -- and I'll be doing that as a second "hobby career," so that should keep me relatively busy.  Then there's going to the gym, hiking (my god, there are miles and miles of hiking trails in the White Mountains I've yet to explore), jiu jitsu, snowboarding, volunteering, gardening, working around the house on light maintenance stuff.  I cannot foresee possibly running out of things to do once I stop collecting a paycheck.

You just mentioned several fun things to do that:
1) Depend on location (e.g. there's no rock climbing in most of the Midwest)
2) Are hard to do if you're tied down to kids' schooling schedule

If you live in a boring city and have the enormous responsibility of raising kids, then much of the fun stuff everyone talks about on this forum is out of reach, even if you're FIREd.

You hit the nail on the head.  I would love to live out West or near the Appalachians and White Mountains.  I could go hiking every day.  Alas, I live in flat land.  I did travel three times last year without my family (total of 15 days), but that's about my limit without feeling guilty.

As mentioned, most of my choices on where to live have been career driven.  I worked in finance (main spots with many opportunities would be SF, NYC, CHI and Boston, but always a decent size city) and energy (so you can guess where I live). 

With lots of foresight (i.e. decades), I would have chosen differently during my working years.....find a set of cities that would be great regardless of work situation and then choose the one that has the best job opportunities. 

Put yourself in the midwest and much of those activities disappear.  It has been my mistake, but that's why I titled it "Cautionary Tale" for others out there who are further from FIRE and are more mobile.

[dude]

Bummer.  Energy = Houston or Dallas, is my guess.  Either would be hell for me.

[MidWestLove]

as person preparing to FIRE with 2 small kids (4 and 1) , I am actually greatly looking forward to it and not afraid at all of boredom in Midwest :) . As others said, there is a ton of things you can do and your most precious gift to them is time, everything else could be bought/replaced, time can not. hiking works just as well in flat country, we have tons of nature and museum options, and of cause the best entertainment is the one you create yourself, in my case teaching them to be fully proficient in Russian and in their heritage.  I am more concerned I will run out of time/energy doing what I want do (fencing, competitive shooting as in 3 gun and IDPA, martial arts, teaching chess to small kids, teaching engineering , computer science and especially databases who anyone who is caring to learn, learning myself all of the amazing new things that are now coming out, etc.)

Leaving aside the confusion around statements 'I do not know what to do with my time on this planet unless a boss-man tells me so' through structure of work /army/prison/whatever, what does 'boring city' mean ?? no formal entertainment options ?

[Cannot Wait!]

OP, I grew up in a military family and I was in a new school every year except Grades 9 & 10.  Worked for me!  Lots of skills learned along the way. I'm questioning whether you'd really be 'screwing your kids over' to move to a great new location where Dad would be happy and, maybe, if LowerCOL, Mom could also feel secure enough to RE, and kids could graduate in a more livable town rather than being stuck in their present 'boring' city. 

[retired?]

OP, I grew up in a military family and I was in a new school every year except Grades 9 & 10.  Worked for me!  Lots of skills learned along the way. I'm questioning whether you'd really be 'screwing your kids over' to move to a great new location where Dad would be happy and, maybe, if LowerCOL, Mom could also feel secure eneough to RE, and kids could graduate in a more livable town rather than being stuck in their present 'boring' city.

This view is based on my own personal experience.  Was in a jr high with about 1,000 students.  Dad was relocated to No. Virginia and I started high school three days after moving to the new area.  Arrive on Friday, start school on Monday, 2800 kids.  Knew no one and we lived in corporate housing for the first month about 15 miles away, so no after school interaction.  Took two years to adjust.  I agree you learn skills by moving around, but it took a toll on me as I got older.  Moving after K, no impact, after 2nd grade, got the teacher's cat and no impact, after 4th grade, cried a little but got over it within a few days, after 8th grade, SUCKED.

Granted, we could manage some aspects of it, but uprooting the kids just prior to HS takes a toll on many kids.....depends on personality, right?  Our last move, when kids were entering 4th and 6th grade was fine for one kid and took the (surprisingly) younger kid about a year to adjust.

My brother-in-law was career military and I agree it's a different experience.  Germany twice, Turkey once, Australia once, and several towns in the U.S.  I don't know their kids well enough to understand the impact for them.  I know the second oldest chose to be home-schooled for the last two years of HS while in Australia.

The kids aren't bored.  There are the usual activities.  Someone earlier guessed it.....Dallas/Houston..........pretty cheap already.

Also, if you were in a school for children of military parents (i.e. where the kids are all in the same situation), I would argue it is a different experience.  More like going to college where everyone is "new".

I consider it might not be as hard for them as I imagine, but I can't do it based on my own experience.  It would be trading off their comfort/satisfaction for mine.  I am willing to wait the 6 years.

[steveo]

Hopefully, I won't be able to relate to this cautionary tale.  I have SO MANY things I would rather be doing.  First and foremost is rock climbing -- and I'll be doing that as a second "hobby career," so that should keep me relatively busy.  Then there's going to the gym, hiking (my god, there are miles and miles of hiking trails in the White Mountains I've yet to explore), jiu jitsu, snowboarding, volunteering, gardening, working around the house on light maintenance stuff.  I cannot foresee possibly running out of things to do once I stop collecting a paycheck.

I have 3 kids 14,12 & 5. I want to be FIRE within say 5 years. It might be less and then part time work or something like that. I'm not sure yet. Still I will have kids at home and a young kid at home. We won't be moving locations or be able to travel or anything like that.

I'm happy to do jiu-jitsu, ride my bike, play chess, read, work on the house including the garden, cook food etc. I love just doing these activities and I would quit tommorrow if I had enough money.

[Cassie]

I think you need a p.t. job or do some consulting in your field.  We retired at 53 & 58 and after 7 months were bored and found much volunteer work mind numbing. WE each now consult p.t. in our fields and I teach an online college class which I can do from anywhere. It is the perfect balance. When my kids were little I was a SAHM and never bored because they were a lot of work. Once they went to school f.t. I went back to work because it was boring to be at home so I understand your situation.

[retired?]

I think you need a p.t. job or do some consulting in your field.  We retired at 53 & 58 and after 7 months were bored and found much volunteer work mind numbing. WE each now consult p.t. in our fields and I teach an online college class which I can do from anywhere. It is the perfect balance. When my kids were little I was a SAHM and never bored because they were a lot of work. Once they went to school f.t. I went back to work because it was boring to be at home so I understand your situation.

I agree.  How did you find the online college class opportunity?  I have graduate degrees in math and engineering, so I think I would qualify "background-wise".  I took a look at volunteermatch.org (recommended in another thread), but most were related to hospice care.  I don't simply want to fill my time, but fill it with something where I can use my background.  I applied to an online tutoring opp, but no response yet.

Thanks in advance.

[dude]

OP, I grew up in a military family and I was in a new school every year except Grades 9 & 10.  Worked for me!  Lots of skills learned along the way. I'm questioning whether you'd really be 'screwing your kids over' to move to a great new location where Dad would be happy and, maybe, if LowerCOL, Mom could also feel secure eneough to RE, and kids could graduate in a more livable town rather than being stuck in their present 'boring' city.

This view is based on my own personal experience.  Was in a jr high with about 1,000 students.  Dad was relocated to No. Virginia and I started high school three days after moving to the new area.  Arrive on Friday, start school on Monday, 2800 kids.  Knew no one and we lived in corporate housing for the first month about 15 miles away, so no after school interaction.  Took two years to adjust.  I agree you learn skills by moving around, but it took a toll on me as I got older.  Moving after K, no impact, after 2nd grade, got the teacher's cat and no impact, after 4th grade, cried a little but got over it within a few days, after 8th grade, SUCKED.

Granted, we could manage some aspects of it, but uprooting the kids just prior to HS takes a toll on many kids.....depends on personality, right?  Our last move, when kids were entering 4th and 6th grade was fine for one kid and took the (surprisingly) younger kid about a year to adjust.

My brother-in-law was career military and I agree it's a different experience.  Germany twice, Turkey once, Australia once, and several towns in the U.S.  I don't know their kids well enough to understand the impact for them.  I know the second oldest chose to be home-schooled for the last two years of HS while in Australia.

The kids aren't bored.  There are the usual activities.  Someone earlier guessed it.....Dallas/Houston..........pretty cheap already.

Also, if you were in a school for children of military parents (i.e. where the kids are all in the same situation), I would argue it is a different experience.  More like going to college where everyone is "new".

I consider it might not be as hard for them as I imagine, but I can't do it based on my own experience.  It would be trading off their comfort/satisfaction for mine.  I am willing to wait the 6 years.

You know, I gotta wonder if it's different these days with social media, e-mail, cell phones, etc.  I moved to a new town in the 5th grade, and it was tough at first, but I adjusted.  Moved again after frosh year, and thought that was going to suck big-time, but it ended up working out just fine.  Part of it was because I was athletic, and a good football player, so I made a mark right away on the field, and quickly earned a bunch of friends (i.e., my teammates). In hindsight, I'm very grateful for that last move. We moved from a fairly hardscrabble, dying factory town to a more affluent place by the shore, and life couldn't have been more different.  I think rubbing shoulders with kids who were by and large bound for college vs. headed to work on the assembly line gave me a taste of another possible kind of life.  And even without the tools kids have today to stay in touch, I kept in contact, albeit limited, with friends from my old town (and now we're friends on FB 30+ years later!).  If I'd had the tools to stay in closer touch that kids have today, it would have been quite different (though thinking about it, I can't say if it would have been better or worse; possibly better because you just stay closer; possibly worse, because then you'd be acutely aware of the things you were missing out on in your old hometown and maybe also not trying as hard to connect with new friends in your new town).

[gardenarian]

I am incredibly glad that we moved before retirement. I live in a walkable small city (Ashland, OR) that has a plethora of activities and lots of nice people that I can relate to. Frankly, I wish we'd moved here many years ago - I did make a better salary in the Bay Area but the quality of life up here in the State of Jefferson is incomparable.

I do have a lot of interests, but the noise and congestion and speed of life in the Bay Area weighted me down.

When we moved, my daughter was in the middle of her sophomore year of high school, but she was completely on board with it. It is easy for her to keep in touch with her old friends online, and they frequently visit.

I guess I have a couple of thoughts:
1) If you don't like where you live, you're probably not going to like it more after retirement.
2) The point of FIRE is not to straitjacket you - it's to free you up to do whatever it is you like. So if you'd be happier working till you can move, go for it.

[Cassie]

Retired: just look up colleges and see who offers online classes. Then they will have you apply online for a job. It is a numbers game and is difficult to get your first job. Public universities pay much better then private ones.

[Threshkin]

retired? We are in a similar situation but not because of kids. 

In my case, it is my mom who is in a nursing home that makes it difficult to move or travel like we would want to do.  She does not really understand what has happened to her and depends on us a lot.

My DW's case is similar, her mom lives in a different country but needs someone to care for her virtually 7x24.  Right now we do this with hired help and local family (cousins) but if DW was to retire the pressure would mount quickly for her to go "home" and stay with mom.  For DW, her birth country is no longer home.  She says she feels like a foreigner there.  Visiting is fine but she does not want to move back permanently, even if I could go with her.

So, even though we are FI we decided to not RE for now.  So we keep watching our stache grow while dreaming about our eventual R"E".  Like it or not, eventually the situation with both of our moms will change and we will be free to do what we want.  Unfortunately, unlike with kids we do not know when this will happen.  Hopefully we will still be able to travel like we want to then. 

[retired?]

OP, I grew up in a military family and I was in a new school every year except Grades 9 & 10.  Worked for me!  Lots of skills learned along the way. I'm questioning whether you'd really be 'screwing your kids over' to move to a great new location where Dad would be happy and, maybe, if LowerCOL, Mom could also feel secure eneough to RE, and kids could graduate in a more livable town rather than being stuck in their present 'boring' city.

This view is based on my own personal experience.  Was in a jr high with about 1,000 students.  Dad was relocated to No. Virginia and I started high school three days after moving to the new area.  Arrive on Friday, start school on Monday, 2800 kids.  Knew no one and we lived in corporate housing for the first month about 15 miles away, so no after school interaction.  Took two years to adjust.  I agree you learn skills by moving around, but it took a toll on me as I got older.  Moving after K, no impact, after 2nd grade, got the teacher's cat and no impact, after 4th grade, cried a little but got over it within a few days, after 8th grade, SUCKED.

Granted, we could manage some aspects of it, but uprooting the kids just prior to HS takes a toll on many kids.....depends on personality, right?  Our last move, when kids were entering 4th and 6th grade was fine for one kid and took the (surprisingly) younger kid about a year to adjust.

My brother-in-law was career military and I agree it's a different experience.  Germany twice, Turkey once, Australia once, and several towns in the U.S.  I don't know their kids well enough to understand the impact for them.  I know the second oldest chose to be home-schooled for the last two years of HS while in Australia.

The kids aren't bored.  There are the usual activities.  Someone earlier guessed it.....Dallas/Houston..........pretty cheap already.

Also, if you were in a school for children of military parents (i.e. where the kids are all in the same situation), I would argue it is a different experience.  More like going to college where everyone is "new".

I consider it might not be as hard for them as I imagine, but I can't do it based on my own experience.  It would be trading off their comfort/satisfaction for mine.  I am willing to wait the 6 years.

You know, I gotta wonder if it's different these days with social media, e-mail, cell phones, etc.  I moved to a new town in the 5th grade, and it was tough at first, but I adjusted.  Moved again after frosh year, and thought that was going to suck big-time, but it ended up working out just fine.  Part of it was because I was athletic, and a good football player, so I made a mark right away on the field, and quickly earned a bunch of friends (i.e., my teammates). In hindsight, I'm very grateful for that last move. We moved from a fairly hardscrabble, dying factory town to a more affluent place by the shore, and life couldn't have been more different.  I think rubbing shoulders with kids who were by and large bound for college vs. headed to work on the assembly line gave me a taste of another possible kind of life.  And even without the tools kids have today to stay in touch, I kept in contact, albeit limited, with friends from my old town (and now we're friends on FB 30+ years later!).  If I'd had the tools to stay in closer touch that kids have today, it would have been quite different (though thinking about it, I can't say if it would have been better or worse; possibly better because you just stay closer; possibly worse, because then you'd be acutely aware of the things you were missing out on in your old hometown and maybe also not trying as hard to connect with new friends in your new town).

I think being an athlete, in particular, can be a huge advantage (or some other group activity that gets you immediately involved).  My older sister was very outgoing and on the pretty side, so friends came very easily.

RE tech - My daughter's best friend moved back to Calgary and they keep in touch via face time.  My son figures "i'll never see them again so why bother", which is a little sad.

Every time I casually throw out the idea of moving (to take a reading on it), the resounding response is "no".  Moreover, my wife has spent the last year becoming certified in TX for counseling and has a job now.  Unfortunately, moving is a non-starter.  If my wife agreed and the kids were for it or ambiguous, I would be on realtor.com right now.  ; )

I don't want to this to become a thread on kids.  Just the idea that, as you hear with real estate in general, with retirement it's location, location, location.

[Cassie]

I don't know how old you guys are but don't wait too long to travel, etc. If either of your Moms have dementia people can live 20 years with that. I have had numerous friends either dead or disabled in 50-60's so don't put things off too long.  Your wife could retire and not tell her family if the pressure will be that bad. Just because your  Mom is in a home does not mean you can't travel for a few weeks or month at a time.  I can certainly understand not wanting to be gone for too long. So sorry that both your Moms are in that situation.

[retired?]

retired? We are in a similar situation but not because of kids. 

In my case, it is my mom who is in a nursing home that makes it difficult to move or travel like we would want to do.  She does not really understand what has happened to her and depends on us a lot.

My DW's case is similar, her mom lives in a different country but needs someone to care for her virtually 7x24.  Right now we do this with hired help and local family (cousins) but if DW was to retire the pressure would mount quickly for her to go "home" and stay with mom.  For DW, her birth country is no longer home.  She says she feels like a foreigner there.  Visiting is fine but she does not want to move back permanently, even if I could go with her.

So, even though we are FI we decided to not RE for now.  So we keep watching our stache grow while dreaming about our eventual R"E".  Like it or not, eventually the situation with both of our moms will change and we will be free to do what we want.  Unfortunately, unlike with kids we do not know when this will happen.  Hopefully we will still be able to travel like we want to then.

Good comparison.  My parents stayed in expensive No VA with lots of traffic b/c my grandmother was there and, for my mom, moving would have seemed like abandoning her.  She passed away in 2008 (at age 99) and my parents moved to a more agreeable location a couple years later.  They are very satisfied now.

We'd like to move to a place with mountains, hiking, skiing, etc. (likely East coast....Appalachians) as soon as kids are done with HS.  But, will have to review then and take it as it comes.  Looking into college stuff, etc. but that's in or for another thread.

[mak1277]

Is there any empirical evidence that "uprooting" kids has a negative impact on them?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I draw on my own experience from that age (obviously obsolete, but still informative on a base level), and that of the other expat families with high school kids.  The mantra overseas was to either keep travelling and live 'the good life' or get home before starting HS.  It seemed to bear itself out anecdotally when kids were repeatedly returning 'home' but realizing that this wasn't their personal / cultural home anymore.  At least, at the High School level, most of the social groups were formed.  There's also a difficulty in transferring from a baccalaureate degree to US, etc., but those are minor issues vs. the emotional consequences.  Maybe it is different when moving within the US, but most of those international returnees really struggled.

I don't know how you document 'uprooting', but it was certainly a thing.

[Rollin]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

Not saying this will happen or even have an impact on what you do, but the kids are entering HS so they are gonna be teens. You'll be lucky if you get a small amount of time with them when they become teens. Not saying this is your case, but if you are depending on doing things with them you may need to start looking for ways to build up your list of things to do without them.

I'm making these comments without much background on you, so please don't be offended. It is more my experience and many others that I am familiar with (although I do spend a lot of time with my kids - all teens).

[Dee18]

Some ideas:  Do things with the kids while they are still home...things they want to do.  Maybe cook dinner with each of them once a week (even if they don't want to do this; they'll learn a lot).  Be a room parent...or substitute teacher (in my state you don't need a teaching credential); you'll find out what's really going on.  Volunteer to learn something new--habitat for humanity?  bike repair?  Become a "big brother" to a child who doesn't have a dad.  Take a class.  I also think you should feel free to travel more, say one week a month.  Don't feel guilty about it.  It will be good for everyone if it makes you happier.

[Nords]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

I'm firmly in the camp of "too much to do all day". 

Having said that, here's a thought experiment: 
Do you have to be in a certain location to be happy? 
Or from another perspective, if you move to your dream location are you sure you'll be happier than you are now? 
What if you go through the whole uprooting relocation process and learn that the new location has just as many problems-- different ones-- yet still about the same stress level?

Because I've learned that lesson many times through my career.  My spouse and I moved 13 times in 20 years.

The military has a cliché:  "Bloom where you're planted."  You've made a location choice (for perhaps the best of reasons) but during the next few years you could work on matching your interests to your location-- or better still, develop your location-free climate-independent interests.

When you reach financial independence, you have to be responsible for your own entertainment.  You can't merely depend on the corporate offices, or your family, or your environment to provide it for you.

I hate the feeling that I'm just waiting for the kids to graduate high school so that my real RE can begin (in 6 years).

Speaking as an empty-nester looking back on those years:  "Ha, that's pretty funny!"

When our daughter graduated high school and left for college, we still found ourselves still constrained by the "school" schedule.  We tended to stay home during her winter/summer breaks, and we did most of our traveling to her college (family weekend, sports events, summer school, graduation).  We took one trip abroad with her, but in retrospect she was still tired & stressed from exam week and didn't appreciate the travel (let alone doing it with her parents) as much as she could have.  During breaks it was better for her to recuperate & reconnect at home.

When she graduated from college and launched from the nest, we were finally free to travel the world.  So you know what we did six months later?  That's right, we visited our daughter.  Admittedly she was stationed in Spain and had an awesome launch pad for day trips and weekends, but we still made our plans around family.

As unappealing as life with teens may be, it will eventually get better.  You can make it better now by figuring out how to improve the balance between your parenting and your personal life.  (Your kids probably don't want to be seen in public with you anyway.)  One day you'll look back on this time spent with them and appreciate the value.  You won't want to repeat it, but you'll be glad that you made the most of it. 

Our daughter's 23 years old, and this will be the first year that we've done lots of travel without her.

[arebelspy]

I'm not sure the thread title fits the story.

[retired?]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

Not saying this will happen or even have an impact on what you do, but the kids are entering HS so they are gonna be teens. You'll be lucky if you get a small amount of time with them when they become teens. Not saying this is your case, but if you are depending on doing things with them you may need to start looking for ways to build up your list of things to do without them.

I'm making these comments without much background on you, so please don't be offended. It is more my experience and many others that I am familiar with (although I do spend a lot of time with my kids - all teens).

Good point.  They are becoming more and more independent (glad to see).  Perhaps I need to change my mindset to one where they don't really mind if pops goes off and does something without them.

[retired?]

Some ideas:  Do things with the kids while they are still home...things they want to do.  Maybe cook dinner with each of them once a week (even if they don't want to do this; they'll learn a lot).  Be a room parent...or substitute teacher (in my state you don't need a teaching credential); you'll find out what's really going on.  Volunteer to learn something new--habitat for humanity?  bike repair?  Become a "big brother" to a child who doesn't have a dad.  Take a class.  I also think you should feel free to travel more, say one week a month.  Don't feel guilty about it.  It will be good for everyone if it makes you happier.

Thanks for the input.  It is definitely guilt that keeps me from doing it more.  I have two friends, a sibling, and my parents that each live in an interesting place to visit.....and, I do, just not that much.  I've suggested to my wife that she do the same, and she likes the idea, just never takes action. 

[retired?]

I'm not sure the thread title fits the story.

Well, there is a warning.  And, titles are meant to draw people in so you get a response.  And, I do miss the math.

[retired?]

I'm firmly in the camp of "too much to do all day". 

Having said that, here's a thought experiment: 
Do you have to be in a certain location to be happy? 
Or from another perspective, if you move to your dream location are you sure you'll be happier than you are now? 
What if you go through the whole uprooting relocation process and learn that the new location has just as many problems-- different ones-- yet still about the same stress level?

Because I've learned that lesson many times through my career.  My spouse and I moved 13 times in 20 years.

The military has a cliché:  "Bloom where you're planted."  You've made a location choice (for perhaps the best of reasons) but during the next few years you could work on matching your interests to your location-- or better still, develop your location-free climate-independent interests.

I agree the grass is not always greener in a new location.  That, combined with my own experience of moving just before HS is what keeps me from doing it now.

I like the cliche.  Need to find the right fertilizer.  ; )

[arebelspy]

I'm not sure the thread title fits the story.

Well, there is a warning.  And, titles are meant to draw people in so you get a response.  And, I do miss the math.

I don't get the warning.  Or see it as a "cautionary tale."

I mean, you have some restrictions on your life, of your choosing.  I don't know what that has to do with FIRE.

A cautionary tale to plan better, do you mean?

(I realize that could sound insulting, but I don't mean it to be--I couldn't figure out other wording, so adding this disclaimer. :) )

You said that "My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids"--plenty of people do it.  MMM himself, for example.  Many, many others.  The problem with your ER/boredom isn't due to the kids, is what I'm saying.

[retired?]

I'm not sure the thread title fits the story.

Well, there is a warning.  And, titles are meant to draw people in so you get a response.  And, I do miss the math.

I don't get the warning.  Or see it as a "cautionary tale."

I mean, you have some restrictions on your life, of your choosing.  I don't know what that has to do with FIRE.

A cautionary tale to plan better, do you mean?

(I realize that could sound insulting, but I don't mean it to be--I couldn't figure out other wording, so adding this disclaimer. :) )

You said that "My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids"--plenty of people do it.  MMM himself, for example.  Many, many others.  The problem with your ER/boredom isn't due to the kids, is what I'm saying.

Yes, plan better.  As mentioned somewhere after the original post, my FIREing wasn't planned.  I just saved well.  I didn't have a goal to FIRE.  I got fed up with the corporate world and quit pretty abruptly.  More so, the problem is with location rather than kids.  But, the kids limit my mobility.  Yes, I can get over it, but it will take more effort than if I lived in Longmont or many other places.

I simply didn't realize how important it would be, with all the extra time, to either a) be near outdoorsy stuff or b) in a city....i.e. walk out the door and do whatever.

[Rollin]

I recall there have been several threads basically discussing "what do I do with all this free time?".  Much of the responses were along the lines of "I cannot imagine not knowing how to fill my free time.....I have so much to do.....you must be a loser if you are at a loss".

So, this is not one of those.  But, my experience is that I cannot do all that I might due to family circumstances.  I have two kids that are 14 and 12.  My wife isn't as comfortable with the FIRE (doesn't complain, but views it differently and is more cautious), and went back to work full-time last September, and almost full-time about 6 months after I quit.

I live in the 'burbs of a large city that is not that interesting.  Moved there for the particular industries.  We are not moving to avoid uprooting the kids as they enter high school.  So, the caution is that, while I have a lot of free time, I am not able to do all that I'd like.  Frequently traveling by myself would not be fair.  Summers are great, but the other nine months is, well, sort of boring.

My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids unless you live in a fairly interesting location.  Perhaps quit the stressful corporate job, but plan to work to fill the time until actually free to do whatever.

Not saying this will happen or even have an impact on what you do, but the kids are entering HS so they are gonna be teens. You'll be lucky if you get a small amount of time with them when they become teens. Not saying this is your case, but if you are depending on doing things with them you may need to start looking for ways to build up your list of things to do without them.

I'm making these comments without much background on you, so please don't be offended. It is more my experience and many others that I am familiar with (although I do spend a lot of time with my kids - all teens).

Good point.  They are becoming more and more independent (glad to see).  Perhaps I need to change my mindset to one where they don't really mind if pops goes off and does something without them.

I do that often and I think it is healthy for me and for them. Heading to the desert in two weeks (1.5 week trip) and planning to head out West in August (after my 8/1 FIRE date!) for a few months of bicycle touring and some hiking. I often will be gone for 2-4 days hiking, boating, bicycling, or motorcycle touring.

When you are happier and healthier they are too. I'm careful not to sacrifice so much that I take away from my health and happiness. Learned that the hard way years back.

[Rollin]

I'm not sure the thread title fits the story.

Well, there is a warning.  And, titles are meant to draw people in so you get a response.  And, I do miss the math.

I don't get the warning.  Or see it as a "cautionary tale."

I mean, you have some restrictions on your life, of your choosing.  I don't know what that has to do with FIRE.

A cautionary tale to plan better, do you mean?

(I realize that could sound insulting, but I don't mean it to be--I couldn't figure out other wording, so adding this disclaimer. :) )

You said that "My warning is to not FIRE while you still have kids"--plenty of people do it.  MMM himself, for example.  Many, many others.  The problem with your ER/boredom isn't due to the kids, is what I'm saying.

Yes, plan better.  As mentioned somewhere after the original post, my FIREing wasn't planned.  I just saved well.  I didn't have a goal to FIRE.  I got fed up with the corporate world and quit pretty abruptly.  More so, the problem is with location rather than kids.  But, the kids limit my mobility.  Yes, I can get over it, but it will take more effort than if I lived in Longmont or many other places.

I simply didn't realize how important it would be, with all the extra time, to either a) be near outdoorsy stuff or b) in a city....i.e. walk out the door and do whatever.

I think this points out an important step in RE, and that is pre-planning. Many hear do it for years. If you haven't done it ready you may need to go through it now. Kinda a step you need to go through regardless of where you are on the RE continuum.

You read as though you are aware, and open to many new ideas though (based on what I'm reading) so maybe the world if your oyster!

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed the thread, as I do many of the ones I participate in although I don't always go back and post it.  And I will be going in to work tomorrow morning (so I need to wrap it up).  Thanks for throwing this 'caution' out there.  My wife and I both think very little of our current 'burbs, although it is top notch for families.  When we were in Dubai, my kids learned to ski and snowboard at the Emirates Mall, so it is possible to not compromise for family in many ways and forms.  I think we should be applauded that we have. 

But once we move on to a different stage in our life (operation, empty nest) we, personally, will not be Houstonians.  We will remember it with nostalgia, but the world and all of the inspiration it offers will be our guide.  And the fun thing, about having lived somewhere and left, is that you can go back and see how it has changed.  And you can find people in that loacale of your age and recall the past with them.

[deborah]

I agree with Nords that any location is what you yourself make of it. For nine years, my partner was living in a different city to me, and he hated it. I was seconded there, and for the first winter ever in my adult life, I wasn't off sick for six weeks, so I got transferred to where he was. Once I moved, and he started to do things here, rather than just be miserable, he was suddenly happy with the city where we live, and we retired here.

[Cyaphas]

I'm in Fort Worth. I'm a decade away from FIRE. While I agree that the local area isn't Seattle/SOCAL/Colorado like, and I do miss oceans and mountains, hiking, kayaking, fishing, agriculture, handy man, writing, music... I have a very hard time seeing your plight. Local board gaming communities are fun. Meetup.com or run for local government. Build something. Learn a new trade, I'm a beginner blacksmith and wood worker, I'm terrible at it, but I love to do it. Buy a flip house (I can find you one) fix it up and rent it out or sell it.