Author Topic: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?  (Read 9660 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2017, 07:13:52 AM »
RoG is probably the closest to a mainstream life and most transparent example that I know of (many blogs like MrTakoEscapes and Retireby40 are what I consider a non-traditional male SAHP with a working spouse).   GCC is good if you are willing to dabble in geographic arbitrage.

With that said, the reality is that ER means being really conservative and probably doing a few questionable things, like taking the free handouts you are entitled to.  Although he is a millionaire, his children are on CHIP (Medicaid) and he lives in a questionable (but apparently gentrifying) area that had a driveby shooting and some of the worst schools in the state.  He also qualifies for foodstamps and free lunches at school since none of these things are means tested, but basically does not see these as being worth the hassle.  Of course, he is free to use the system as it stands, but my wife would be mortified and divorce me if I suggested we retire and live like we are economically disadvantaged.  Apparently his family was happy to trade-off two good careers and live like this, to each their own.
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

BeanCounter

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2017, 08:07:18 AM »
RoG is probably the closest to a mainstream life and most transparent example that I know of (many blogs like MrTakoEscapes and Retireby40 are what I consider a non-traditional male SAHP with a working spouse).   GCC is good if you are willing to dabble in geographic arbitrage.

With that said, the reality is that ER means being really conservative and probably doing a few questionable things, like taking the free handouts you are entitled to.  Although he is a millionaire, his children are on CHIP (Medicaid) and he lives in a questionable (but apparently gentrifying) area that had a driveby shooting and some of the worst schools in the state.  He also qualifies for foodstamps and free lunches at school since none of these things are means tested, but basically does not see these as being worth the hassle.  Of course, he is free to use the system as it stands, but my wife would be mortified and divorce me if I suggested we retire and live like we are economically disadvantaged.  Apparently his family was happy to trade-off two good careers and live like this, to each their own.
This is a really interesting and helpful discussion. I will read more on ROG, but I would also really like more examples.
I don't doubt that FIRE with kids is possible, I just want a better understanding of what choices are necessary to make it possible. (other than no debt and low consumerism, I get that)
Side note on GOC- something has changed about the blog and I don't like it anymore. Did he sell?

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2017, 08:10:27 AM »
RoG is probably the closest to a mainstream life and most transparent example that I know of (many blogs like MrTakoEscapes and Retireby40 are what I consider a non-traditional male SAHP with a working spouse).   GCC is good if you are willing to dabble in geographic arbitrage.

With that said, the reality is that ER means being really conservative and probably doing a few questionable things, like taking the free handouts you are entitled to.  Although he is a millionaire, his children are on CHIP (Medicaid) and he lives in a questionable (but apparently gentrifying) area that had a driveby shooting and some of the worst schools in the state.  He also qualifies for foodstamps and free lunches at school since none of these things are means tested, but basically does not see these as being worth the hassle.  Of course, he is free to use the system as it stands, but my wife would be mortified and divorce me if I suggested we retire and live like we are economically disadvantaged.  Apparently his family was happy to trade-off two good careers and live like this, to each their own.
This is a really interesting and helpful discussion. I will read more on ROG, but I would also really like more examples.
I don't doubt that FIRE with kids is possible, I just want a better understanding of what choices are necessary to make it possible. (other than no debt and low consumerism, I get that)
Side note on GOC- something has changed about the blog and I don't like it anymore. Did he sell?

So what do you think makes it not possible.  the same math applies to someone with kids vs someone without... kids are just an added cost.  Our first will be born in Aug/Sept. we will FIRE in 7 years.

-our plan for childhood education is public schools.
-Assuming all kids are born healthy - health share unless something dramatically changes in the next 7 years with the ACA setup
-College education.  living by the 4% rule more often than not money will grow exponentially.  we dont need specific funds for this we likely can cover it - if its even something the pursue - i see the education landscape changing in 20 years. on the higher education front. towards cheaper over the internet from home etc.  maybe localized labs for hands on classes. 

i will likely always have side hustles though b/c i just love figuring out low cost low effort ways to make extra money.  - scalping tickets - selling tradelines - buying and reselling on CL ... etc.
wife is a photographer who could easily shoot a few weddings etc. each year.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:17:16 AM by boarder42 »
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boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2017, 08:21:19 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.
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BeanCounter

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2017, 08:52:34 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

I would agree. And I think that's the ticket to making it work. I do think it's possible. I just also believe it's more difficult. I also agree that the math is the same. I've been tracking our expenses for a couple years in preparation of FIRE and it has fluctuated more than I am really comfortable with and that's when the doubt creeps in.
When the kids were babies and toddlers, it was easy peezy. They needed nothing but our love, some hand me down clothes and a few medical/dental visits. As they have gotten older more things seem to hit our bottom line. DS1 needs physical therapy, that's $100 a month for a year. Then he needs orthodontia- that's looking like $3k-$5k. DS2 will likely need orthodontia as well. Both would like to try martial arts- dojo fees are $80 a month each. They would also like to play an instrument. We don't let them do every thing they ask to do, but I do think one sport and music is reasonable. It starts to add up. Makes me feel like I can't really budget. And what about food, clothing and transportation for teenagers?

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2017, 09:09:57 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

I would agree. And I think that's the ticket to making it work. I do think it's possible. I just also believe it's more difficult. I also agree that the math is the same. I've been tracking our expenses for a couple years in preparation of FIRE and it has fluctuated more than I am really comfortable with and that's when the doubt creeps in.
When the kids were babies and toddlers, it was easy peezy. They needed nothing but our love, some hand me down clothes and a few medical/dental visits. As they have gotten older more things seem to hit our bottom line. DS1 needs physical therapy, that's $100 a month for a year. Then he needs orthodontia- that's looking like $3k-$5k. DS2 will likely need orthodontia as well. Both would like to try martial arts- dojo fees are $80 a month each. They would also like to play an instrument. We don't let them do every thing they ask to do, but I do think one sport and music is reasonable. It starts to add up. Makes me feel like I can't really budget. And what about food, clothing and transportation for teenagers?

but you can budget you can set an entertainment budget for them.  braces arent continuous etc.
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BeanCounter

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2017, 09:45:53 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

I would agree. And I think that's the ticket to making it work. I do think it's possible. I just also believe it's more difficult. I also agree that the math is the same. I've been tracking our expenses for a couple years in preparation of FIRE and it has fluctuated more than I am really comfortable with and that's when the doubt creeps in.
When the kids were babies and toddlers, it was easy peezy. They needed nothing but our love, some hand me down clothes and a few medical/dental visits. As they have gotten older more things seem to hit our bottom line. DS1 needs physical therapy, that's $100 a month for a year. Then he needs orthodontia- that's looking like $3k-$5k. DS2 will likely need orthodontia as well. Both would like to try martial arts- dojo fees are $80 a month each. They would also like to play an instrument. We don't let them do every thing they ask to do, but I do think one sport and music is reasonable. It starts to add up. Makes me feel like I can't really budget. And what about food, clothing and transportation for teenagers?

but you can budget you can set an entertainment budget for them.  braces arent continuous etc.
Totally. And this is what we're figuring out. Plus a reasonable contingency.

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2017, 09:56:38 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

I would agree. And I think that's the ticket to making it work. I do think it's possible. I just also believe it's more difficult. I also agree that the math is the same. I've been tracking our expenses for a couple years in preparation of FIRE and it has fluctuated more than I am really comfortable with and that's when the doubt creeps in.
When the kids were babies and toddlers, it was easy peezy. They needed nothing but our love, some hand me down clothes and a few medical/dental visits. As they have gotten older more things seem to hit our bottom line. DS1 needs physical therapy, that's $100 a month for a year. Then he needs orthodontia- that's looking like $3k-$5k. DS2 will likely need orthodontia as well. Both would like to try martial arts- dojo fees are $80 a month each. They would also like to play an instrument. We don't let them do every thing they ask to do, but I do think one sport and music is reasonable. It starts to add up. Makes me feel like I can't really budget. And what about food, clothing and transportation for teenagers?

but you can budget you can set an entertainment budget for them.  braces arent continuous etc.
Totally. And this is what we're figuring out. Plus a reasonable contingency.

yeah makes sense... you just seem to come across as sounding like its impossible to FIRE with children which i think is highly untrue.  you just have to do the math and figure out your comfort level.
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cchrissyy

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2017, 10:22:37 AM »
i think you're ruling out lots of people who could be examples based on pretty strict criteria

1 - couples  - some of us parents are single you know : )

2 - living on a fixed 'stache and the 4% rule - many FIRE people have income streams such as rental real estate and aren't drawing down a traditional stache of stocks/funds/bonds.

3 - many of us, especially when younger, do paid work that isn't financially necessary but we choose to do it anyway. maybe we enjoy the challenge, or the socialization, or we just don't want to let our credentials to get stale yet.

4 - the above can combine in such a way that you RE and live off your current cash flow just fine while your stache continues compounding whether or not you add money to it.


and, going back up to item 1,  some of us single parents have kids whose health insurance is covered by their other parent's employer and so the insurance costs and market concerns just don't exist in the same way.
I have primary custody of 3 school-age kids, 2 with high medical needs. Of course, I still have to pay half the orthodontia, the copays, the hospitalizations, the speech therapy etc. But so far I have had an easy and affordable path to keeping them covered, which is not applicable to your "2 FIRED parents" criteria
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 10:46:56 AM by cchrissyy »

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2017, 10:41:57 AM »
CChrissyy

you dont "draw down a stache" when using the 4% rule.  in some cases yes it decreases over your life but more frequently it increases and grows forever.
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cchrissyy

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2017, 10:45:41 AM »
yeah sorry for the word choice, I meant "using" or "relying on" not "drawing down"

Freedom17

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2017, 08:11:59 PM »
We're planning to retire this year with 2 young kids and living costs around $68k which in principle corresponds to $1.7M, although we will have around $2.2M.

We will live in Hong Kong which has housing that is more expensive than the Bay Area. However there is government provided health care, good public schools, child care subsidies and no tax on dividends or capital gains which makes a big difference.

We live in the Bay Area now and spend around $80k per year. My spouse doesn't work.

Is there a reason you 'need' to stay in the Bay Area?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:49:37 PM by Freedom17 »



Metric Mouse

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2017, 07:38:56 PM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

Making money in FIRE is ridiculously easy. Don't work longer than you have to.
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2017, 05:47:52 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

Making money in FIRE is ridiculously easy. Don't work longer than you have to.

Maybe, but I do hate it when SAHP's do stuff like Tupperware parties and hawking jewelery.  Selling tradelines sounds iffy and blogging for income has mostly dried up.  Not to say it can't be done, but it's not ridiculously easy to replace the income and benefits package, in my humble opinion.  In our experience, by the time my wife began to make real money, she basically was working again.
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2017, 06:40:56 AM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

Making money in FIRE is ridiculously easy. Don't work longer than you have to.

Maybe, but I do hate it when SAHP's do stuff like Tupperware parties and hawking jewelery.  Selling tradelines sounds iffy and blogging for income has mostly dried up.  Not to say it can't be done, but it's not ridiculously easy to replace the income and benefits package, in my humble opinion.  In our experience, by the time my wife began to make real money, she basically was working again.

Selling trade lines is not that iffy. I have 5 cards in now. Should pull in 2200 a month. 2 are actively being filled monthly and by this time next year I'll have 15 cards in pulling down 3-4k monthly
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toppdealer

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2017, 06:40:33 PM »
Since some folks have asked about Healthcare as FIRE, I thought I'd share...

Transitioned from United Healthcare (that I had when in the corp world) to Liberty Healthshare. It is technically NOT healthcare, but rather a sharing coop. Because it is private, they can limit to people who genuinely care about health, non-smokers, non-heavy drinkers, etc. We pay $450/mo for a family (regardless of 1 or 10 kids). First $1500 OOP is on me, and the rest is covered 100% (up to $1m/incident). To be honest, the coverage and support, thus far, has blown away the traditional stuff. They haven't turned down a single thing, whereas our traditional health coverage was very selective and had multiple different deductible versions.

Liberty Healthshare was recommended to me by the folks that run Checkbook IRA, which was also helpful when I FIRE'd. CB IRA allowed me to turn my company 401k into an IRA that is literally like a CB. I can use it to invest in real estate, the market, etc. Only restrictions are collectible's, wine, and alcohol/tobacco.

Happy to explain further for anyone who has questions about my experiences. Hope this helps! Cheers.

mara

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2017, 05:29:26 AM »
Just looked at the Liberty website. Faith-based healthcare?

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2017, 06:10:47 AM »
Just looked at the Liberty website. Faith-based healthcare?

the Faith part just is to bypass the requirement to be on ACA mostly.  its a loop hole.  at its core its a very affordable way to buy insurance for the FIRE crowd assuming no large pre existing conditions that would make sense for you to be a drain on the other healthcare system. 

that is until we fix our super messed up system we have now.
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BeanCounter

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2017, 06:34:32 AM »
. First $1500 OOP is on me, and the rest is covered 100% (up to $1m/incident). To be honest, the coverage and support, thus far, has blown away the traditional stuff.
I am interested in understanding this better. The bolded above scares me. Is that a cap on spend by diagnosis? A perfectly healthy individual with great lifestyle choices can be diagnosed with a blood cancer or brain tumor and hit $1M in a heartbeat. Especially if the healthshare doesn't have the best network rates with those specialized providers.
I admit that I haven't done a lot of reading about this yet though.

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2017, 06:42:33 AM »
. First $1500 OOP is on me, and the rest is covered 100% (up to $1m/incident). To be honest, the coverage and support, thus far, has blown away the traditional stuff.
I am interested in understanding this better. The bolded above scares me. Is that a cap on spend by diagnosis? A perfectly healthy individual with great lifestyle choices can be diagnosed with a blood cancer or brain tumor and hit $1M in a heartbeat. Especially if the healthshare doesn't have the best network rates with those specialized providers.
I admit that I haven't done a lot of reading about this yet though.

Multiple stories out there about cancer patients who had it all covered.  Including a woman who was only on the up to 250k/incident plan.  The healthshare negotiated a 650k total medical bill cost down to 200k for her.  and it was all covered by the plan.  Also if you do get a big disease that you think will cost less when enrolled in a traditional plan you can opt back into it under the current laws.

You can also couple this with a catastrophic coverage plan that would cover those insane costs over 1MM dollars.
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Playing with Fire UK

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2017, 06:46:20 AM »
Just looked at the Liberty website. Faith-based healthcare?
the Faith part just is to bypass the requirement to be on ACA mostly.  its a loop hole.  at its core its a very affordable way to buy insurance for the FIRE crowd assuming no large pre existing conditions that would make sense for you to be a drain on the other healthcare system. 

that is until we fix our super messed up system we have now.

Do they exclude treatments or diseases due to the faith aspect? [I'm thinking stem cells, contraception, STI related illnesses, but not trying to start a debate as to whether that would be good or bad]

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2017, 06:51:38 AM »
Just looked at the Liberty website. Faith-based healthcare?
the Faith part just is to bypass the requirement to be on ACA mostly.  its a loop hole.  at its core its a very affordable way to buy insurance for the FIRE crowd assuming no large pre existing conditions that would make sense for you to be a drain on the other healthcare system. 

that is until we fix our super messed up system we have now.

Do they exclude treatments or diseases due to the faith aspect? [I'm thinking stem cells, contraception, STI related illnesses, but not trying to start a debate as to whether that would be good or bad]

i started a whole thread on this

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/let's-talk-about-health-share/

just to talk about any issues.  you have to read the terms.  Each group is different in what they allow. 
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Metric Mouse

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2017, 09:25:45 PM »
I think it would be hard to find someone who does absolutely nothing to make another dollar after FIRE and just lives with their family.  People driven enough to FIRE will likely still be making money once FIREd in other random ways they enjoy.

Making money in FIRE is ridiculously easy. Don't work longer than you have to.

Maybe, but I do hate it when SAHP's do stuff like Tupperware parties and hawking jewelery.  Selling tradelines sounds iffy and blogging for income has mostly dried up.  Not to say it can't be done, but it's not ridiculously easy to replace the income and benefits package, in my humble opinion.  In our experience, by the time my wife began to make real money, she basically was working again.

Selling trade lines is not that iffy. I have 5 cards in now. Should pull in 2200 a month. 2 are actively being filled monthly and by this time next year I'll have 15 cards in pulling down 3-4k monthly
And that's probably a conservative estimate. I know people who do this who pull in even more than that. They are mid-late twenties and pull in enough to quit their job and travel the world with their S/O. Completely doable.
May I ask what company you use? It'd be nice to know a little bit (or pretend to) if it ever comes up in conversation.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 09:37:08 PM by Metric Mouse »
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2017, 10:59:59 PM »
I said 'iffy' because the income comes on a 1099-misc.  Not sure how the IRS will view thousands or tens of thousands of this income.  Also, not a fan of giving the host company basically your complete identity.  Even if they have no incentive to steal it, surely hackers (or an employee) could.  Still seems like a shady area, getting money for nothing usually ends badly, but more power to the folks that are benefiting and feel like the risk is worth the reward.  Being FI, I'm extra sensitive that the risk is low, and don't mind if I end up getting a very low or only charitable reward if I eventually jump in (maybe on a personal level, offering AU spots to help others). 

*A good idea, probably what MetricMouse's friends employ, is having a good tax accountant that sets up a business entity that receives the income and pays you a salary.  Probably ways you can take away the income risk and potentially defray the ID theft via an ITIN, but I didn't become FI to spend my retirement figuring stuff like this out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:11:25 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

AdrianC

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2017, 10:25:33 AM »
Selling trade lines is not that iffy. I have 5 cards in now. Should pull in 2200 a month. 2 are actively being filled monthly and by this time next year I'll have 15 cards in pulling down 3-4k monthly

Heading off topic...you're renting out your credit history so someone with worse credit can fool a loan company and get better terms. The loan company takes on greater risk than they expected. How is this not cheating the loan company? How is this not loan fraud?

boarder42

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2017, 11:47:48 AM »
Whole thread to debate that topic elsewhere
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CanuckExpat

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2017, 01:15:45 PM »
I'm looking for examples of families like mine, living in the US with two or more school aged children with both parents RE. I would love some examples of how they have navigated things like education, insurance and health care over a long period.

One example I almost forgot about: Brave New Life. Two smaller children, no working spouse, retired mid 30s; unfortunately hasn't posted in quite a while.

For reference, wife and I are mid 30s, with a two year old and another one one on the way. Based in the US and neither one of us works currently. Though if I go back to work, it will be because toddlers are terrible, and daycare isn't cheap :)
Was targetting Freedom35 but ended up retiring a couple years early. Currently Based in Buffalo for the summer.

AdrianC

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2017, 04:37:29 PM »
Whole thread to debate that topic elsewhere

Found it. I don't go into that section normally. For ref:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/selling-tradelines-piggybacking-$600hr-20-40kyr-side-gig/

soupcxan

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2017, 06:39:53 PM »
Selling trade lines is not that iffy. I have 5 cards in now. Should pull in 2200 a month. 2 are actively being filled monthly and by this time next year I'll have 15 cards in pulling down 3-4k monthly

Heading off topic...you're renting out your credit history so someone with worse credit can fool a loan company and get better terms. The loan company takes on greater risk than they expected. How is this not cheating the loan company? How is this not loan fraud?

It's obviously fraud but seems to be applauded around here. I give it a year before the cc companies get wise to this scheme and shut it down.

Metric Mouse

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2017, 01:51:42 AM »
Selling trade lines is not that iffy. I have 5 cards in now. Should pull in 2200 a month. 2 are actively being filled monthly and by this time next year I'll have 15 cards in pulling down 3-4k monthly

Heading off topic...you're renting out your credit history so someone with worse credit can fool a loan company and get better terms. The loan company takes on greater risk than they expected. How is this not cheating the loan company? How is this not loan fraud?

It's obviously fraud but seems to be applauded around here. I give it a year before the cc companies get wise to this scheme and shut it down.
A - the credit card who is being rented is not misleading anything - so no fraud on their part.
B - This has been a business for several years. I don't see it changing significantly in the near future.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2017, 01:54:50 AM »
I said 'iffy' because the income comes on a 1099-misc.  Not sure how the IRS will view thousands or tens of thousands of this income.  Also, not a fan of giving the host company basically your complete identity.  Even if they have no incentive to steal it, surely hackers (or an employee) could.  Still seems like a shady area, getting money for nothing usually ends badly, but more power to the folks that are benefiting and feel like the risk is worth the reward.  Being FI, I'm extra sensitive that the risk is low, and don't mind if I end up getting a very low or only charitable reward if I eventually jump in (maybe on a personal level, offering AU spots to help others). 

*A good idea, probably what MetricMouse's friends employ, is having a good tax accountant that sets up a business entity that receives the income and pays you a salary.  Probably ways you can take away the income risk and potentially defray the ID theft via an ITIN, but I didn't become FI to spend my retirement figuring stuff like this out.
Yeah, I'm not sure how their tax situation is set up. Identity theft may not be one of their largest concerns - if it comes up in conversation and I can grok how they do I'll post in the side-gig tax thread.
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CanuckExpat

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2017, 08:48:17 AM »
Making money in FIRE is ridiculously easy. Don't work longer than you have to.
Not to say it can't be done, but it's not ridiculously easy to replace the income and benefits package, in my humble opinion.  In our experience, by the time my wife began to make real money, she basically was working again.

When people say "it's easy to make money in FI/RE", I don't think anyone is talking about replacing your normal career income, but rather making a small amount of money doing stuff you find fun, meaningful, or easy. This is where having a high savings rate during your working career, and low overhead in terms of your spending comes in handy:

Say you find yourself making $5,000 / year doing fun stuff in retirement. If your annual spending is $100,000, the perception is "Well this is not going to replace my $120,000 salary". But if your spending is $20,000 / year, all of a sudden you just met 25% of your annual spending needs.

I don't want to dismiss what you said, and I'd like to hear more about you and your wife's experience in that regards.

In my case, other then silly bonus stuff (bank bonuses, mystery shopping type things: eating chicken), we haven't really made a lot of money, but it's still a good percentage of our spending so far. I occasionally send out emails if I come across an interesting consulting/contracting type opportunity. Nothing has come out of it yet, but I don't mind it either, it's something I can do while having a latte, eating a pastry, and between browsing the forums. It's not what I'd call a full time job :)
Was targetting Freedom35 but ended up retiring a couple years early. Currently Based in Buffalo for the summer.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2017, 09:10:26 AM »
I need to know more about this chicken-eating income

Please and thank you.

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2017, 06:51:38 PM »
We have a 2 year old and a 4 year old. Maybe will have another, and we are (theoretically) FIRE thanks to some rental income and a modest set of retirement/taxable accounts. DW quit her job about 15 months ago.

But I'm not quitting, for several reasons:
-Healthcare, as others have mentioned, is terrifying. I have to plan for the possibility of paying $20k+ a year (or more) just for crappy insurance for 4 very healthy people with no chronic conditions. We're not so wealthy we can just self-insure, not even close.
-College costs. I'd prefer to pay for my children's college (I know this is controversial here) and I also have to plan for a worst-case scenario where college is $250k a year or something. I guess the whole system would probably collapse before that, but then again I'd have said that about today's $70k/year costs 20 years ago when I was in college.
-I like my job. And I'd prefer to keep doing it. I've scaled back to about 50% time (so 3-4 hour workdays) and am taking a lot more vacations, though.

I think the big issue here isn't kids - it's kids and healthcare. Maybe we'll have some clarity about that in the next few years, but I'm not holding my breath.

-W

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #84 on: February 08, 2017, 07:00:11 PM »
If you really are that afraid of healthcare costs and are planning on college being so astronomically expensive, I would think you should be looking at other countries as a serious option. There are plenty of other countries that are good to live in that have single-payer healthcare and affordable or even free university.
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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #85 on: February 08, 2017, 08:06:17 PM »
If you really are that afraid of healthcare costs and are planning on college being so astronomically expensive, I would think you should be looking at other countries as a serious option. There are plenty of other countries that are good to live in that have single-payer healthcare and affordable or even free university.

Yes, that is certainly the case for us. Given that I enjoy my work and probably won't quit completely, however, I imagine that we'll be stupidly wealthy in another decade and a half, so it might not matter.

-W

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2017, 09:57:09 PM »
With that said, the reality is that ER means being really conservative and probably doing a few questionable things, like taking the free handouts you are entitled to.  Although he is a millionaire, his children are on CHIP (Medicaid) and he lives in a questionable (but apparently gentrifying) area that had a driveby shooting and some of the worst schools in the state.
I think you may have read a little too much into Justin's post- I have seen the neighborhood first hand and there's nothing ghetto about it. One isolated shooting doesn't tell much. It's just a pretty boring working class area, maybe a 6/10?

Also, the school he mentions is the worst in Wake County, which is head and shoulders above the rest of the state.

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2017, 12:22:11 PM »
Say you find yourself making $5,000 / year doing fun stuff in retirement. If your annual spending is $100,000, the perception is "Well this is not going to replace my $120,000 salary". But if your spending is $20,000 / year, all of a sudden you just met 25% of your annual spending needs.

I don't want to dismiss what you said, and I'd like to hear more about you and your wife's experience in that regards.


I'd agree with that $5,000 and no benefits figure being about the top of fun / hobby income.  My wife was about there doing substitute teaching, but it was getting to be regular enough that she just went ahead and became full time.  Still low stress, but income jumped up to $25k and full health, retirement, vacation benefits.

She's going back to SAHP next year to make the most of our kids while they are still in middle school, but enjoyed her year of subbing and 2 years of teaching at the Elementary school.  If nothing else, it has re-set her appreciation of the joys of SAHP'ing which helps put the 'fun money' spending back in perspective.  We noticed that, after several years as SAHP, her fun spending was creeping up, but not as much as her peers.  Some of the SAHP's start tennis lessons, regular lunches out, scrap-booking, massages, housecleaners, manicures, etc. after the initial excitement wears off. 
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AdrianC

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2017, 05:33:01 PM »
We noticed that, after several years as SAHP, her fun spending was creeping up, but not as much as her peers.  Some of the SAHP's start tennis lessons, regular lunches out, scrap-booking, massages, housecleaners, manicures, etc. after the initial excitement wears off.

Interesting. My wife has been a SAHP for 9 years now. She does lunch about once a week and some of her charity work ends up costing us some (gas, donations). Other than that she's still the frugal, coupon-clipping girl I married. She spends so much time volunteering at our elementary school that she might as well get a job there...be nice too get those benefits :-)

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2017, 07:45:40 PM »
We noticed that, after several years as SAHP, her fun spending was creeping up, but not as much as her peers.  Some of the SAHP's start tennis lessons, regular lunches out, scrap-booking, massages, housecleaners, manicures, etc. after the initial excitement wears off.

Interesting. My wife has been a SAHP for 9 years now. She does lunch about once a week and some of her charity work ends up costing us some (gas, donations). Other than that she's still the frugal, coupon-clipping girl I married. She spends so much time volunteering at our elementary school that she might as well get a job there...be nice too get those benefits :-)

My wife went SAH when our 2nd was born, then we went overseas not long after.  We were frugal through that, but other expat wives were living it up while we 'stached away.  Came back to Houston living a little higher than when we left (160k starter house replaced with a 300k house, mainly to get in to a better school district).  Similar story, after a few years and another expat assignment, wife volunteered so much that she started part-time paid positions.  Amazingly, being on the paid side gave her a much more influence, so she went full-time.

Our youngest is 11 now, so my wife did ~2yrs SAHP, 2.5 yrs volunteer overseas, half year home-school, 2 yrs volunteer in our new school district, 2 yrs substitute teaching overseas, 2 yrs full-time back in Houston... 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 07:53:35 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2017, 10:57:14 PM »
I need to know more about this chicken-eating income

Please and thank you.

Since you asked so nicely, and I think it's funny: Bought and (eventually) ate eight boxes of fried chicken strips, got paid $500 (minus the cost of the chicken strips), and took about an hour between two of us.

It was mystery shopping type thing: Order chicken at location A, eat some and complete survey with thoughts. Order chicken at location B, eat some and complete survey with thoughts. The study paid $125, and there were two locations relatively close to eacher we could do it at, also two of us, for a total of $500. 

It seemed very geographically targeted. We happened to be passing through that area while travelling. A friend knew about the study, and that we were in the area so emailed me. Presumably he guessed correctly that I would jump at the chance to eat friend chicken and get paid for it.

So, I think this is a funny story, and the moral isn't that you can scale $500/hour chicken eating, it's pretty one off. But $500 did happen to pay our rent for the two weeks we were in that town, so goes to the advantage of low overhead, and taking advantage random opportunities that come up. I sadly admit that most probably won't be that tasty or lucrative :(
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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #91 on: February 10, 2017, 12:07:49 AM »
Thanks CanuckExpat! That is a cool story. I do bits of mystery shopping but mostly in the $20 range. It doesn't scale but is a good way to eat for free.

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #92 on: February 10, 2017, 12:51:01 AM »
Very funny story indeed! :)

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #93 on: February 10, 2017, 03:39:10 PM »
That's awesome! Probably more than the professional eating contest people make, and a lot more sane.

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #94 on: February 10, 2017, 11:55:13 PM »
That's awesome! Probably more than the professional eating contest people make, and a lot more sane.
If you count actual contest time, it could be about the same rate per hour.
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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2017, 12:36:25 AM »
To reply to the OP question:

Yes. We fired 3 years ago with an 8 year old living at home and 2 daughters in college.

Since then, our oldest daughter has graduated and our stash has increased by about 6%.

Living overseas helps quite a bit.
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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2017, 02:54:10 PM »
Posting mostly to follow replies.
To partially answer the OP:
we have 3 kids, We plan to move to a very HCOL: Tokyo (but we're flexible in how far from Tokyo we might want to live). Wife has been a Stay at Home mom for 5 years, and I plan to pull the plug in 2 years (or hopefully before that - technical my math says we're already FI but I'll need a job in Japan to secure a low-interest mortgage, before I can pull the plug).

Japan is not the US, but has similar constraints, in particular Tokyo which is roughly as expensive as HCOL areas in the US in my experience (education costs and housing* costs through the roof, health is expensive although controlled by compulsory national plans. I estimate we will have to pay 12k a year for national health + national pension).

I believe you have 2 choices: have a very crisp budget for the 20 years to come, or expect flexibility in life, which is how I approach things. I have not planned specifically for college costs for my 3 kids. However I have planned to spend a specific amount of money every year for them, which I know will fluctuate in practice. If things go my way, it will be cheaper in the early years so I can save a bit to pay more when they get to college. Worst case scenario, we can skip the international vacation once in a while to get back on track financially if needed, or cut on other expenses, move to some European country where education is virtually free, or, god forbids, go back to paid work at some point if my calculations turn out to be off by 5 digits.

I think flexibility is the key as you add members to your household: each new member adds lots of variables to your life, so your plans basically need to adapt to that. With more kids, you statistically increase the risk that one of them will have expensive medical costs. Incidentally, you also increase the chance that one of them decides to leave home and start a career without going to expensive college.

You've mentioned you're committed to the Bay Area. Do you have details? Not that I pretend I could change your mind, but I'd love to try (from my perspective the only reason to stay in a given location would be family. Anything else is negotiable)

* our 700sq feet condo cost us $500'000 in Japan, when we lived there before. And that was in the suburbs of Tokyo, not Tokyo itself. I don't know of many families of 4 in the US who would find it ok to live in 700sq feet. Again, flexibility.

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2017, 07:18:58 PM »
I have two young kids not even in school and a non working spouse.  My main goal is FU money instead of FIRE.  FIRE means I can work somewhere I truly enjoy or for myself.  Insurance is a scam and the medical industry the racket; I kind of want to enter their business

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2017, 07:54:26 PM »
When people say "it's easy to make money in FI/RE", I don't think anyone is talking about replacing your normal career income, but rather making a small amount of money doing stuff you find fun, meaningful, or easy. This is where having a high savings rate during your working career, and low overhead in terms of your spending comes in handy:

Say you find yourself making $5,000 / year doing fun stuff in retirement. If your annual spending is $100,000, the perception is "Well this is not going to replace my $120,000 salary". But if your spending is $20,000 / year, all of a sudden you just met 25% of your annual spending needs.

I don't want to dismiss what you said, and I'd like to hear more about you and your wife's experience in that regards.

In my case, other then silly bonus stuff (bank bonuses, mystery shopping type things: eating chicken), we haven't really made a lot of money, but it's still a good percentage of our spending so far. I occasionally send out emails if I come across an interesting consulting/contracting type opportunity. Nothing has come out of it yet, but I don't mind it either, it's something I can do while having a latte, eating a pastry, and between browsing the forums. It's not what I'd call a full time job :)

This is my gameplan, hopefully it works out.
#1 - love this post topic. Too many FIRE couples on these forums are DINKs , not having that added expense cuts out many readers here I imagine.
#2 - the US healthcare system scares the crap out of me, seriously. I am very fortunate like CanuckExpat and enjoy my free healthcare
#3 - I have two kids, one graduating and one in grade 10. I have a bit saved up to help with university costs (RESP) but otherwise that can pay their own way.
#4 - I am giving FIRE a shot and will be done work May 19th. The wife will continue to work (she/we own our now business and she loves it so will keep working)
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Dicey

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Re: anyone fully fired (no working spouse) with younger children?
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2017, 01:37:08 PM »
I didn't become FI to spend my retirement figuring stuff like this out.
And just like that <snap> you have assuaged my guilt for not pursuing that potentially lucrative path.

It's fine if you want/need to, but it isn't really leaving money on the table if you have amassed enough.

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