Author Topic: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.  (Read 2902 times)

spartana

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 10:24:27 PM by spartana »
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Paul der Krake

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 10:42:21 PM »
Joke's on them, I do all my interneting at work.

MasterStache

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 07:00:30 AM »
Just another Trump political business decision

Nothlit

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2017, 07:24:33 AM »
This is how it's been all along. The Obama rule prohibiting such use of your data hadn't actually gone into effect yet.

jim555

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 07:32:26 AM »
Looks like its time to VPN.  The Opera browser has one built in.

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 07:36:40 AM »
Yeah, we discussed at the end of the net neutrality thread here:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/should-we-be-concerned-with-net-neutrality-and-why/msg1495514/#new

My libertarian friend who believed that "Republicans are the party of privacy" is pretty pissed.

prognastat

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 07:49:29 AM »
Yeah, we discussed at the end of the net neutrality thread here:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/should-we-be-concerned-with-net-neutrality-and-why/msg1495514/#new

My libertarian friend who believed that "Republicans are the party of privacy" is pretty pissed.

I don't quite see how from a purely libertarian position he could argue against this.

The government was putting an artificial limitation on companies to prevent them from selling this information without explicitly asking their customers first.

From a purely libertarian perspective that would be undue meddling in the relationship between the company and it's customer. From that view point the correct way to deal with it would be by switching your business to a competitor that doesn't sell your info and let market forces sort it out that way.

As an aside I completely disagree that this is an effective way to deal with it in my opinion, but I think this is a perspective that would be most in line with a libertarian view on the issue.

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 08:49:41 AM »
I'm not going to defend the way my friend thinks, because it confuses me, too.  He voted for Gary Johnson and identifies as a right-leaning libertarian.  He's anti-tax and anti-vax. But also anti-corporation, pro-immigrants, anti-abortion and feels we have a right to privacy that should not be infringed.   Basically does not want powerful forces, whether government or corporations, overpowering small businesses and individuals, except wrt reproduction.  (this is as far as I understand his position)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 08:53:18 AM by Poundwise »

jim555

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 09:02:50 AM »
The Internet has no privacy.  You have to make your own.  Many tools are available and are not hard to set up and use.
I can't understand people who do the whole social media thing and show every detail of their life.

hoping2retire35

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 02:21:19 PM »
I think I read Tor is a privacy browser. Don't really understand it at this level but it seems like your ISP could still track what sites you are accessing by your IP address.

hoping2retire35

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 02:22:32 PM »
I'm not going to defend the way my friend thinks, because it confuses me, too.  He voted for Gary Johnson and identifies as a right-leaning libertarian.  He's anti-tax and anti-vax. But also anti-corporation, pro-immigrants, anti-abortion and feels we have a right to privacy that should not be infringed.   Basically does not want powerful forces, whether government or corporations, overpowering small businesses and individuals, except wrt reproduction.  (this is as far as I understand his position)
?? Am I your friend?

Just Joe

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 02:44:09 PM »
Looks like its time to VPN.  The Opera browser has one built in.

Consider that Opera (which happily I started using with Win98) is owned by a Chinese company. I wonder how independent they are of the Chinese gov't?

Give a look at Vivaldi browser. Some same people as the Opera project. Its what I use on Linux, Mac, PortableApps (Windows), etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivaldi_(web_browser)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 02:50:06 PM by Tasty Pinecones »

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 03:08:56 PM »
I think I read Tor is a privacy browser. Don't really understand it at this level but it seems like your ISP could still track what sites you are accessing by your IP address.

TOR would foil your ISP.  I wouldn't trust it to foil any entity that was really out to snoop on you.  There have been some fairly good de-anonymizing attacks on it.  But outbound traffic seen by the ISP would be encrypted and the destination would be a seemingly random IP address (and not the IP of "mrmoneymustache.com" ... or whatever you happen to be browsing.)

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scottish

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 03:35:22 PM »
A paid VPN + anonymous mode will foil most of this.   Assuming you have a trustworthy VPN provider.

It would certainly drive up the costs of snooping.

StreetCat

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 08:55:04 AM »
Will using https mitigate the problem?  Even with https, ISP will still know the IP address you are accessing, so - they probably know that I'm accessing forum.mrmoneymustache.com.  But they won't know exactly what I'm posting, etc.

Similarly, they may know that I'm accessing Cigna/Aetna/UNH, etc. websites but they won't see the the web pages I'm seeing, since they are encrypted.

Am I right?

VeggieGirl

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 08:59:05 AM »
Will using https mitigate the problem?  Even with https, ISP will still know the IP address you are accessing, so - they probably know that I'm accessing forum.mrmoneymustache.com.  But they won't know exactly what I'm posting, etc.

Similarly, they may know that I'm accessing Cigna/Aetna/UNH, etc. websites but they won't see the the web pages I'm seeing, since they are encrypted.

Am I right?

That's what I'm thinking. Wouldn't stuff that's encrypted be safe from prying eyes?

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2017, 09:13:23 AM »
Will using https mitigate the problem?  Even with https, ISP will still know the IP address you are accessing, so - they probably know that I'm accessing forum.mrmoneymustache.com.  But they won't know exactly what I'm posting, etc.

Similarly, they may know that I'm accessing Cigna/Aetna/UNH, etc. websites but they won't see the the web pages I'm seeing, since they are encrypted.

Am I right?

So... it depends on how the ISP plans to "watch" you.

I have a theory on what the ISPs are planning to do.  I used to work at an ISP and I am purely basing this on trends I was seeing.  I am sure actual implementation will vary from ISP to ISP.

I see a couple of ways to go about this:
method 1. Install DPI boxes everywhere in the network.  Watch all traffic.  Gather statistics.  Spam people with ads based on origin IP/traffic content.
method 2. Just monitor DNS lookups.  Gather statistics based on origin IP.  Spam people with ads based on origin IP/destination domain.

Pros (from the ISP point of view)
method 1.  You will get a pretty good idea of what everyone does, not matter what the protocol.  For encrypted protocols (like https) you will minimally get the destination, which will give you general things like "user is interested in finance."
method 2.  This is dreadfully easy.  Not only is it easy, the data is already being collected.  No hardware to buy.  Sell existing data you have laying about.  ISPs are probably already gathering data on non-existing domains and redirecting you to a search engine (which gives them money).  [Aside: this is a bad, bad thing from a technical point of view, but pretty much all of them do it.]

Cons (from ISP point of view)
method 1.  This can be terribly expensive.  There is lots of hardware to buy.  Depending on network architecture, you may have to have them all over the place.  And where I came from, these invisible "just a bump in the wire" type machines are very suspect.  Any time you have a problem and have a mystery  box in the middle of things that "doesn't do anything"... you are ALWAYS suspicious this box is actually interfering.
method 2. Not as detailed data.  (But probably "good enough").

---

My semi educated guess is ISPs will use the DNS method (method 2).  If so, switching your DNS server from the ISPs DNS server to some other DNS server will likely take you off of their radar.

---

Aside: More than "ISP is watching" ... I'm concerned with how they're planning on spamming me with ads.  If they plan on wrapping every http window in a frame that has ads to the side: This would be absolutely horrible.  They'll screw up formatting and likely just break stuff in general.  I think they will fail at this.  If they are just going to add context to the search page they return for DNS lookup failures...  that's at least not as invasive.  I'm really curious how they think they will successfully use the data.
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trashmanz

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 09:23:34 AM »
A paid VPN + anonymous mode will foil most of this.   Assuming you have a trustworthy VPN provider.

It would certainly drive up the costs of snooping.

Although it should still be possible that the browser you are using may still track where you go and what you search no matter whether you have a VPN or not as that would just protect against your ISP or third party snooping. 

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2017, 09:36:12 AM »
A paid VPN + anonymous mode will foil most of this.   Assuming you have a trustworthy VPN provider.

It would certainly drive up the costs of snooping.

Although it should still be possible that the browser you are using may still track where you go and what you search no matter whether you have a VPN or not as that would just protect against your ISP or third party snooping.

And possible (likely) your search engine is tracking you.  And facebook.  And Google.  (There are facebook/google objects on so much of the interwebs... even if you don't "use" facebook/google.)  And your phone.  As much as I hate adding to an already existing mess of non-privacy: This bill is just following the schema that is already in place.  I feel like we're complaining about closing the barn door several years after the horses have escaped.
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Nothlit

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2017, 10:51:23 AM »
This bill is just following the schema that is already in place.  I feel like we're complaining about closing the barn door several years after the horses have escaped.

Yep, I pointed this out above, but everyone continued freaking out.

I'm not arguing that additional privacy would not be a good thing, but... There is nothing new here. This bill simply leaves in place the status quo that has existed since the beginning of the internet. The Obama-era rule that this bill is repealing hadn't even gone into effect yet.

scottish

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2017, 11:17:53 AM »
And possible (likely) your search engine is tracking you.  And facebook.  And Google.  (There are facebook/google objects on so much of the interwebs... even if you don't "use" facebook/google.)  And your phone.  As much as I hate adding to an already existing mess of non-privacy: This bill is just following the schema that is already in place.  I feel like we're complaining about closing the barn door several years after the horses have escaped.

If you run Firefox in anonymous mode, all the cookies are automatically removed when you end the session i.e. exit the browser.

You're correct that you can still be tracked during the session.   Especially if you log into Facebook or Google.   If you don't login to any of the big websites, then tracking between sessions is gone.   Google/Facebook data collection is a problem today though, and not something being introduced by the new legislation.

And ISPs don't generally have the ability to decrypt VPN traffic.   Not so sure about the NSA.

In terms of HTTPS I wouldn't put it past ISPs to put a proxy server on your connection and try to force you to install the ISPs root certificate.   This way the proxy server could man-in-the-middle your HTTPs connections.   (Many companies already do this on their enterprise networks, so if you're doing banking at work, you may be letting your company see all your banking information.)

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2017, 11:37:03 AM »

In terms of HTTPS I wouldn't put it past ISPs to put a proxy server on your connection and try to force you to install the ISPs root certificate.   This way the proxy server could man-in-the-middle your HTTPs connections.   (Many companies already do this on their enterprise networks, so if you're doing banking at work, you may be letting your company see all your banking information.)

I think all hell would break loose if this was attempted.  I think you'd not just get push back from the customers, but also from the banks/Amazons/etc of the world.

It's one thing for a company to pre-package a laptop with their cert on it.  (It's not a good thing, IMO... but they at least have an argument they can make.  "Our network.  Our laptop.  Our data.  Do your banking somewhere else if you don't like it.")

It's another thing entirely to force you to load an ISP's cert.  I don't particularly like the idea of farming general info for advertising.  Poking into encrypted communications: nope.

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GuitarStv

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2017, 12:33:45 PM »
Each morning, open up your favourite search engine and type some stuff and look at some websites to fuck with him:

How to make a bomb
How to make a pipe bomb
New York busiest subway times
Explosive yield of fertilizer
Presidential schedule and public appearances
Timing devices electronics
Remote detonators
Shaping explosive charges
Etc.

If there's enough of a flood of dangerous hits and matches then their illegal surveillance won't be of benefit to them.

scottish

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2017, 02:19:55 PM »

In terms of HTTPS I wouldn't put it past ISPs to put a proxy server on your connection and try to force you to install the ISPs root certificate.   This way the proxy server could man-in-the-middle your HTTPs connections.   (Many companies already do this on their enterprise networks, so if you're doing banking at work, you may be letting your company see all your banking information.)

I think all hell would break loose if this was attempted.  I think you'd not just get push back from the customers, but also from the banks/Amazons/etc of the world.

It's one thing for a company to pre-package a laptop with their cert on it.  (It's not a good thing, IMO... but they at least have an argument they can make.  "Our network.  Our laptop.  Our data.  Do your banking somewhere else if you don't like it.")

It's another thing entirely to force you to load an ISP's cert.  I don't particularly like the idea of farming general info for advertising.  Poking into encrypted communications: nope.

I think most customers wouldn't understand what it means.    Personally, I wouldn't do business with an ISP that tried such a thing.   But this fits with the overall direction the US is headed.

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2017, 02:27:11 PM »

In terms of HTTPS I wouldn't put it past ISPs to put a proxy server on your connection and try to force you to install the ISPs root certificate.   This way the proxy server could man-in-the-middle your HTTPs connections.   (Many companies already do this on their enterprise networks, so if you're doing banking at work, you may be letting your company see all your banking information.)

I think all hell would break loose if this was attempted.  I think you'd not just get push back from the customers, but also from the banks/Amazons/etc of the world.

It's one thing for a company to pre-package a laptop with their cert on it.  (It's not a good thing, IMO... but they at least have an argument they can make.  "Our network.  Our laptop.  Our data.  Do your banking somewhere else if you don't like it.")

It's another thing entirely to force you to load an ISP's cert.  I don't particularly like the idea of farming general info for advertising.  Poking into encrypted communications: nope.

I think most customers wouldn't understand what it means.    Personally, I wouldn't do business with an ISP that tried such a thing.   But this fits with the overall direction the US is headed.

I really suspect -- based on the data collections I've seen -- that what we are talking about is an amalgam and not specific to an individual.  In other words, I suspect this is DNS data folded into netflow data.  You end up with a pretty report where you can see MarketA, MarketB, MarketC.  You click on one and you get categories and percentages of data: streaming media, adult web sites, retail...  Click on one of those and you get specific sites and amounts of data.

This is the type of thing I've seen collected... and I suspect someone is trying to monetize it -- much in the way they monetize DNS NX references that push you into a search page. 
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iris lily

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2017, 08:55:38 AM »
Yeah, we discussed at the end of the net neutrality thread here:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/should-we-be-concerned-with-net-neutrality-and-why/msg1495514/#new

My libertarian friend who believed that "Republicans are the party of privacy" is pretty pissed.

I don't quite see how from a purely libertarian position he could argue against this.

The government was putting an artificial limitation on companies to prevent them from selling this information without explicitly asking their customers first.

From a purely libertarian perspective that would be undue meddling in the relationship between the company and it's customer. From that view point the correct way to deal with it would be by switching your business to a competitor that doesn't sell your info and let market forces sort it out that way.

As an aside I completely disagree that this is an effective way to deal with it in my opinion, but I think this is a perspective that would be most in line with a libertarian view on the issue.

I agree with this as libertarian analysis.

I am glad Spartans brought it up because it was bugging me in the abstract, even though in the specific I don't really care.

But I can see an opening for an ISP to charge a lot more to NOT provide your data, just like you had to pay a fee with the old phone company to maintain an unlisted number.

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2017, 10:30:19 AM »
I'm not going to defend the way my friend thinks, because it confuses me, too.  He voted for Gary Johnson and identifies as a right-leaning libertarian.  He's anti-tax and anti-vax. But also anti-corporation, pro-immigrants, anti-abortion and feels we have a right to privacy that should not be infringed.   Basically does not want powerful forces, whether government or corporations, overpowering small businesses and individuals, except wrt reproduction.  (this is as far as I understand his position)
?? Am I your friend?

Probably not, based on geography, but maybe you were separated at birth!  :D

This friend and I get along surprisingly well, even though I'm a left-leaning independent.  We are both thrifty, family-oriented, have similar interests, and listen respectfully to each other.  I think one big difference between us is that I'm more suspicious of big corporations than him, since they have no obligation to serve the public good and fewer requirements for transparency than government.  He distrusts big government more then me, seeing government as bloated and at once too powerful and bumbling.  Since I'm the one writing this, though, I get to point out from my experience working for a corporation, that big business can be shockingly bloated, powerful, and bumbling too.

Spork wrote:
Quote
Aside: More than "ISP is watching" ... I'm concerned with how they're planning on spamming me with ads.  If they plan on wrapping every http window in a frame that has ads to the side: This would be absolutely horrible.  They'll screw up formatting and likely just break stuff in general.  I think they will fail at this.  If they are just going to add context to the search page they return for DNS lookup failures...  that's at least not as invasive.  I'm really curious how they think they will successfully use the data.

I doubt they'll change the enduser experience in ways that inconvenience us.  I am also aware that this bill just protects the status quo. I think what bugs me is the ever-increasing ability of marketing psychologists (who are experiencing something like a technology revolution) to build up fine marketing profiles of each person that make it easier to wrap us even tighter in our personal bubbles, and manipulate our desires and politics.  Information is power, and though the ability to mine this data is still young, in time their ability to predict and change our future behavior based on their exhaustive knowledge of our past, will become yet another shackle on the individual... and holding the other end of the leash will be any business or governmental entity with the money to buy and analyze the data. 

acroy

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 11:22:54 AM »
Yeah, we discussed at the end of the net neutrality thread here:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/should-we-be-concerned-with-net-neutrality-and-why/msg1495514/#new

My libertarian friend who believed that "Republicans are the party of privacy" is pretty pissed.

I don't quite see how from a purely libertarian position he could argue against this.

The government was putting an artificial limitation on companies to prevent them from selling this information without explicitly asking their customers first.

From a purely libertarian perspective that would be undue meddling in the relationship between the company and it's customer. From that view point the correct way to deal with it would be by switching your business to a competitor that doesn't sell your info and let market forces sort it out that way.

As an aside I completely disagree that this is an effective way to deal with it in my opinion, but I think this is a perspective that would be most in line with a libertarian view on the issue.

I agree with this as libertarian analysis.

I am glad Spartans brought it up because it was bugging me in the abstract, even though in the specific I don't really care.

But I can see an opening for an ISP to charge a lot more to NOT provide your data, just like you had to pay a fee with the old phone company to maintain an unlisted number.

Good stuff
Buyer beware. If there's demand for a private ISP, an entrepreneur will fill the gap. In fact, many do exist.

Good analysis on why FCC should really be eliminated, or severely trimmed down.
http://reason.com/archives/2017/04/04/deregulate-the-fcc
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Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 12:44:28 PM »

Spork wrote:
Quote
Aside: More than "ISP is watching" ... I'm concerned with how they're planning on spamming me with ads.  If they plan on wrapping every http window in a frame that has ads to the side: This would be absolutely horrible.  They'll screw up formatting and likely just break stuff in general.  I think they will fail at this.  If they are just going to add context to the search page they return for DNS lookup failures...  that's at least not as invasive.  I'm really curious how they think they will successfully use the data.

I doubt they'll change the enduser experience in ways that inconvenience us.  I am also aware that this bill just protects the status quo. I think what bugs me is the ever-increasing ability of marketing psychologists (who are experiencing something like a technology revolution) to build up fine marketing profiles of each person that make it easier to wrap us even tighter in our personal bubbles, and manipulate our desires and politics.  Information is power, and though the ability to mine this data is still young, in time their ability to predict and change our future behavior based on their exhaustive knowledge of our past, will become yet another shackle on the individual... and holding the other end of the leash will be any business or governmental entity with the money to buy and analyze the data.

While I agree they'll probably not change end user experience...  My worry is actually based on some products and roll outs I have seen.... where entire windows were embedded in a larger html frame with a banner at the top.  Mind you: this particular product was marketed that way.  I.e: cheaper because of the subsidized ad.  But ... ick.

My very long term prognostication is that at some point the "marketing psychologists" will all be exposed as the naked emperor in his new clothes.  I have always seriously tuned out ads online (on pages where I don't have them blocked in the first place).  I just think for the most part the people buying ads are tossing money down virtual toilets.  There are, obviously, exceptions to this... but I really think most of that ad money is wasted.
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Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 02:09:36 PM »
Yeah, was it Netzero that used to offer free internet if you put up with an ad frame?

It's not ads that worry me so much, but how people will have to be much more wary about the news that shows up in their feeds and FB pages.  Politicians will be much more successful at tailoring their images and messages according to their audiences;  and imagine "news" sources that morph their articles to maximize their credibility to you, according to data gleaned from your search profile.

Also, I can imagine the information being used (rightly) in product design.  Products will be customized to capture and addict us. This will be beneficial in some ways, but also creepy (think how hard it is already to stop playing that videogame or stop eating junk food.)

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2017, 02:50:18 PM »
My take on from the article is that the Bill would allow "Them" to search your entire browser history,,emails, etc  as well as any private financial and medical info that can normally be accessed only by you or your bank and doctor. I find that much different then people who voluntarily put all their private info out there on social media (something I don't do). To me this is such a major violation of personal privacy, and so surprising the Repubs supported it. If some government agency wanted to read my snail mail they'd have to get a warrant first and show probable cause. But if they want to see what I've been looking at online (hanging with those radical subversives on.the MMM forums)  or read my personal emails or info they can just look.

Not sure how HIPAA and other Federal/state privacy laws will impact that - those aren't going anywhere most likely.

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
My take on from the article is that the Bill would allow "Them" to search your entire browser history,,emails, etc  as well as any private financial and medical info that can normally be accessed only by you or your bank and doctor. I find that much different then people who voluntarily put all their private info out there on social media (something I don't do). To me this is such a major violation of personal privacy, and so surprising the Repubs supported it. If some government agency wanted to read my snail mail they'd have to get a warrant first and show probable cause. But if they want to see what I've been looking at online (hanging with those radical subversives on.the MMM forums)  or read my personal emails or info they can just look.

Not sure how HIPAA and other Federal/state privacy laws will impact that - those aren't going anywhere most likely.

FWIW: As to any internet -- if you haven't taken steps to encrypt it, it is never (and has never been) private.  That's why banks and hospitals often have their own messaging systems that never leave their network -- because every day folks just have never seemed to adopt even simple mail encryption. 

If you want to compare email to snail mail... it's a post card.  If you want to compare it to mail in an envelope, I would suggest PGP (or GPG).  If you use Thunderbird, it is a very simple, easy to use drop in called Enigmail.  If you use Outlook... well,  not so simple.
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Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 03:58:08 PM »
Found an article on what I was talking about. 

From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/us/politics/cambridge-analytica.html
Quote
In recent years, the company has moved to exploit the revolution in big data to predict human behavior more precisely, working with scientists from the Cambridge University Psychometrics Center. The United States represented a critical new market. Europe has strict privacy protections that limit the use of personal information, but America is more lightly regulated, allowing the sale of huge troves of consumer data to any company or candidate who can afford them.

They now downplay the role of psychographics in the success of recent elections. However, even if the technology is not mature yet, at some point in the near future, it will be.



Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 04:19:15 PM »
Yeah, was it Netzero that used to offer free internet if you put up with an ad frame?

Netzero did it a while back.  The ISP I worked for did it more recently in very limited ways.  I.e. hotels, stadiums, etc could buy a service that gave free wireless access to their customers, but it came with ad banners.
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TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2017, 01:23:10 PM »
Internet privacy used to be a thing back in the day.  Companies regularly assured you that they were not selling your information, out of fear that they would lose your business.

Then facebook changed privacy to something you had to opt in to.  And nobody quit using facebook because of it, and so there is no more privacy.

No government took it from you, as consumers you just actually did not care about it.  It was surrendered without a fight, for "likes."

No person with an active facebook account can make any credible claim to a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Those of us that do want privacy are victims of a new status quo, such that there are simply no equivalent providers of service that respect privacy.

The expectation you should have is that your data will be collected and sold, to be used against you.

Asking the government to solve a problem that you created by not actually caring about the issue is absurd.  It has a two fold problem preventing it from working.  The first is that it isn't enforceable in any meaningful way.  The second is that you don't actually care about it.  Forcing businesses to provide a service that its customers don't actually want will never work.

What people actually want is to live in a post-shame world.  Embarrassment, as a concept, is at odds with what most of us actually do with our lives.  The desire to put an outward public persona that is inherently dishonest, to force those we do business with to participate in the lie we tell the world, is understandable.  But it doesn't have any place in law.
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shenlong55

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 11:44:47 AM »
What people actually want is to live in a post-shame world.  Embarrassment, as a concept, is at odds with what most of us actually do with our lives.  The desire to put an outward public persona that is inherently dishonest, to force those we do business with to participate in the lie we tell the world, is understandable.  But it doesn't have any place in law.

This is an interesting concept that I would love to hear you expand upon.  What do you mean by embarrassment is at odds with what most of us do with our lives?

Wexler

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 12:23:39 PM »
Internet privacy used to be a thing back in the day.  Companies regularly assured you that they were not selling your information, out of fear that they would lose your business.

Then facebook changed privacy to something you had to opt in to.  And nobody quit using facebook because of it, and so there is no more privacy.

No government took it from you, as consumers you just actually did not care about it.  It was surrendered without a fight, for "likes."

No person with an active facebook account can make any credible claim to a reasonable expectation of privacy.
Those of us that do want privacy are victims of a new status quo, such that there are simply no equivalent providers of service that respect privacy.

The expectation you should have is that your data will be collected and sold, to be used against you.

Asking the government to solve a problem that you created by not actually caring about the issue is absurd.  It has a two fold problem preventing it from working.  The first is that it isn't enforceable in any meaningful way.  The second is that you don't actually care about it.  Forcing businesses to provide a service that its customers don't actually want will never work.

What people actually want is to live in a post-shame world.  Embarrassment, as a concept, is at odds with what most of us actually do with our lives.  The desire to put an outward public persona that is inherently dishonest, to force those we do business with to participate in the lie we tell the world, is understandable.  But it doesn't have any place in law.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.  Citizens have a right to privacy, and that includes setting their privacy dial wherever they want to.  It seems to me that you are saying that giving up 1% of your privacy means you willingly surrender the other 99%.   Do you really believe that providing any sort of public face means that you have NO expectations of privacy at all?  That because you post a picture of your dog on facebook that the world gets to see what kind of porn you like?  Because you can be found on LinkedIn that people should know what medicines you order online? Especially if your profile picture is dishonest because you look younger and thinner? 

hoping2retire35

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2017, 06:28:07 AM »
Internet privacy used to be a thing back in the day.  Companies regularly assured you that they were not selling your information, out of fear that they would lose your business.

Then facebook changed privacy to something you had to opt in to.  And nobody quit using facebook because of it, and so there is no more privacy.

No government took it from you, as consumers you just actually did not care about it.  It was surrendered without a fight, for "likes."

No person with an active facebook account can make any credible claim to a reasonable expectation of privacy.
Those of us that do want privacy are victims of a new status quo, such that there are simply no equivalent providers of service that respect privacy.

The expectation you should have is that your data will be collected and sold, to be used against you.

Asking the government to solve a problem that you created by not actually caring about the issue is absurd.  It has a two fold problem preventing it from working.  The first is that it isn't enforceable in any meaningful way.  The second is that you don't actually care about it.  Forcing businesses to provide a service that its customers don't actually want will never work.

What people actually want is to live in a post-shame world.  Embarrassment, as a concept, is at odds with what most of us actually do with our lives.  The desire to put an outward public persona that is inherently dishonest, to force those we do business with to participate in the lie we tell the world, is understandable.  But it doesn't have any place in law.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.  Citizens have a right to privacy, and that includes setting their privacy dial wherever they want to.  It seems to me that you are saying that giving up 1% of your privacy means you willingly surrender the other 99%.   Do you really believe that providing any sort of public face means that you have NO expectations of privacy at all?  That because you post a picture of your dog on facebook that the world gets to see what kind of porn you like?  Because you can be found on LinkedIn that people should know what medicines you order online? Especially if your profile picture is dishonest because you look younger and thinner?
I think the key word in his post that you bolded is active. I have a facebook account but it just has a blurry picture of me, includes my name, and a list of friends. I basically use it as a backup address book. Privacy... maintained.

hoping2retire35

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 06:31:53 AM »
Speaking of private ISP. Does anyone use a co-op ISP? I can only get DSL or monopoly cable internet. a Co-op could run on either line but one just does not exist in my area. Not sure why not.

Malaysia41

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2017, 06:38:48 AM »
Found an article on what I was talking about. 

From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/us/politics/cambridge-analytica.html
Quote
In recent years, the company has moved to exploit the revolution in big data to predict human behavior more precisely, working with scientists from the Cambridge University Psychometrics Center. The United States represented a critical new market. Europe has strict privacy protections that limit the use of personal information, but America is more lightly regulated, allowing the sale of huge troves of consumer data to any company or candidate who can afford them.

They now downplay the role of psychographics in the success of recent elections. However, even if the technology is not mature yet, at some point in the near future, it will be.

FYI: Steve Bannon is a major shareholder in Cambridge Analytica.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3533897/Bannon-Steve.pdf

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Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2017, 08:13:09 AM »
So the below two articles talk about the kind of use that is already being made of our private information. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-data-brokers-selling-your-personal-information/
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/07/11/485571291/firms-are-buying-sharing-your-online-info-what-can-you-do-about-it

If this is okay with you, great. If not, you have two options:
1. Don't use the internet or internet-enabled devices
2. Support privacy legislation that limits the use of personal information

To me, it's kind of like this: I am quite aware that everything I do once I step outside of my house is public. However, I would be pretty upset if somebody set a drone to just follow me around all day long, recording everything I did, and if the subsequent info were put up for sale.  You could say, "Then stay inside!" or "Don't do anything you're ashamed of!"  but the fact is I don't want to stay inside, and even though I think I am a pretty good person and I try not to make mistakes, it would still creep me out. Plus I feel that it's a safety issue if somebody knows all about what I do and where I go every day... online and offline.

Just Joe

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2017, 08:43:03 AM »
...or peeks over my shoulder while I'm adjusting my investments or studying a medical problem. Or - snooping through my computer while I'm working on my million dollar idea. The ISPs aren't necessarily doing this but Microsoft might be if you are using Win10.

Honestly if I had sensitive projects on my computer I would disconnect it from the wireless and ethernet.

scottish

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2017, 03:04:54 PM »
It would be a little ironic if someone were to start a project to purchase the browsing history of US politicians and corporate executives when they become available.

Wait...  somebody has.   https://www.gofundme.com/searchinternethistory   

Currently at $210K of a $10K goal.

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2017, 03:53:52 PM »
It would be a little ironic if someone were to start a project to purchase the browsing history of US politicians and corporate executives when they become available.

Wait...  somebody has.   https://www.gofundme.com/searchinternethistory   

Currently at $210K of a $10K goal.

There are actually a couple of these...  but I wouldn't advise giving to them.  I really don't think there is individualized data for sale here.  You're better off giving directly to ACLU or EFF.
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Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2017, 04:56:15 PM »
FWIW, here's a list of 97 companies who claim that they will allow you to opt out of "interest-based advertising" on your browser. I'm happy that they offer this service. But how many others do not self-regulate?
http://optout.networkadvertising.org/#/

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
And I found another link to the Digital Advertising Alliance, which has 131 companies overlapping heavily with NAI:
http://optout.aboutads.info/#/

Was able to opt out of all but about 4 companies, whose sites I had to visit individually. Was able to opt out fairly easily from two of those, but the websites of the remaining two had broken opt-out functionality so I will have to email them. If I had time and the inclination, I guess I could visit each one of those 131 sites to see what kind of data they sold and whether any of it was individualized.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 05:17:18 PM by Poundwise »

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2017, 05:24:34 PM »
Okay, one more negative about lack-of-internet-privacy-regulation. It just so happens that today I called my ISP to get a better deal, and to keep my business, they gave me TV, increased my bandwidth, and lowered my monthly payment slightly. However, before I install their app, I have to read through several screens of their privacy notice.

I am so sick of reading these things every single time I install software, I would rather know the law once, and have done with it.

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2017, 05:43:42 PM »
Your info was already being sold. This just let's more companies sell it. Don't be selectively outraged.

Poundwise

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2017, 07:19:04 AM »
Your info was already being sold. This just let's more companies sell it. Don't be selectively outraged.

Yes, I know. I didn't like it before, and was looking forward to an end to it. Plus don't forget that technology moves forward constantly so the amount of power that corporate or governmental entities can harvest from your data will continue to increase. We'll find that our search data will be used for more than advertising. 

Spork

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Re: WTF? Trump signs bill to access your internet use info.
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2017, 08:02:28 AM »
Your info was already being sold. This just let's more companies sell it. Don't be selectively outraged.

Yes, I know. I didn't like it before, and was looking forward to an end to it. Plus don't forget that technology moves forward constantly so the amount of power that corporate or governmental entities can harvest from your data will continue to increase. We'll find that our search data will be used for more than advertising.

As was stated up thread... it doesn't even allow more companies to sell it.  This is rolling back an Obama era law that never started being enforced. 

You can still be outraged, but it isn't new.  Make your checks payable to EFF.
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