Author Topic: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?  (Read 4136 times)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2020, 06:17:16 AM »
I've been mainlining Lysol and I feel great, so fresh and clean.

You haven't lived until you've injected UV light.  I'll admit that it's tricky to capture in the syringe (you need to work quickly) though.
UV rectal works wonders, or so I've heard.

Bit of a stretch to get the bulb up there the first time, but then you're golden.

hops

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Location: United States
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2020, 12:26:33 PM »
I've taken this at 400 mg daily for years. Overall, it's the mildest of my meds, but as @scottish mentioned it takes some time to build up a tolerance. The first few weeks my biggest problems were rashes, but my rheumatologist strongly encouraged sticking with it to see what happened.

It's been fantastic for me and for two relatives who took it long-term without issue. One of the many troubling things about the circus Trump and his cronies created around hydroxychloroquine, besides the flagrant irresponsibility of touting unproven treatments and causing drug shortages, is in the future new lupus or RA patients (and sometimes spondylitis patients) might think back on the scary C19 headlines and be too afraid to try it even though their own situations and dosages are quite different.

Tom Bri

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
  • Location: Small Town, Flyover Country
  • More just cheap, than Mustachian
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2020, 01:20:23 AM »
What I have heard is hydroxychloroquine + zinc + azithromycin.  The azithromycin might be able to be substituted with another antibiotic.

I might ask for it if I had Covid-19 and moderate symptoms.

The hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combo was recommended against this week by the NIH because both have the same dangerous cardiac side effect, and that side effect was cropping up in treated COVID-19 patients. I wouldn't ask for that combo, but even if you did I'm not sure if you'd get it at this point.

That was before, and separate from, the FDA recommendation against HCQ alone that @nereo just mentioned upthread.

The side effect is a lengthened Qtc. In our covid patients on HCQ the patients are all on continuous cardiac monitoring. We know if they are having this side effect and stop the treatment. I had one patient who had a history of prolonged Qtc. He was not put on HCQ.

This side effect is a non-issue, and a distraction from the basic question of whether the drug combo works or not. Plenty of doctors think it does. Others just hope it does and use it on that hope. There is plenty of good, scientific evidence that it should work, or at least help.

BikeFanatic

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2020, 03:03:48 AM »
Exactly what Tombri said. HCQ prolongs QT interval on EKG, so if you are on another drug that prolongs QT interval, and there are a ton that do, like antidepressant, anti anxiety meds. Then you are more at risk for Torsades des pointes, a lethal cardiac arrhythmia. So no I would not take HCQ unless I was prescribed and monitored, or very sick and felt it was worth the risks.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2020, 06:22:32 AM »
This is concerning for people who have heart conditions or take drugs that are not compatible.  Obviously, a doctor will evaluate and consult with the patient and talk about the risks, etc. 

I think that any patient can also self-advocate and ask for the treatment if they are interested in it and feel like they are an appropriate candidate.

Note that I mentioned Zinc, and it seems that many are not including that in their mention of Hydroxychloroquine.  My understanding is that the two work together.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1615
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2020, 07:36:11 AM »
Why the fixation on hydroxychloroquine?    (The bleach/UV discussion is too silly to consider.)    There are thousands and thousands of drugs out there.     If we were to setup small trials with each drug, I'm sure you would find several that pass the p-test with respect to COVID-19.

We could try all of the immuno-suppressants: imuran, methotrexate, all the mono-clonal antibodies.

For that matter, if the problem is inflammation in the lungs, why aren't doctors prescribing corticosteroids like prednisone?   They are cheap, fast acting and readily available.   




hops

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Location: United States
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2020, 08:37:23 AM »
Why the fixation on hydroxychloroquine?    (The bleach/UV discussion is too silly to consider.)    There are thousands and thousands of drugs out there.     If we were to setup small trials with each drug, I'm sure you would find several that pass the p-test with respect to COVID-19.

We could try all of the immuno-suppressants: imuran, methotrexate, all the mono-clonal antibodies.

For that matter, if the problem is inflammation in the lungs, why aren't doctors prescribing corticosteroids like prednisone?   They are cheap, fast acting and readily available.

Corticosteroids and some biologics are among the many options already being looked at, but fortunately it appears that none of Trump's golf buddies have placed large financial bets on them, so he's not yet rhapsodized about "tremendous, beautiful clones of antibodies -- and some would add to it, mono," in that egregiously stupid way of his.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-immune-response/610228/

Hopefully, for the safety of their listeners, Ingraham & Co. will remain disinterested in these potential treatments. None are expected to be one size fits all solutions, a nuance that tends to be lost on the anti-science crowd.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12516
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2020, 11:49:12 AM »
.

Note that I mentioned Zinc, and it seems that many are not including that in their mention of Hydroxychloroquine.  My understanding is that the two work together.

Seems like classic moving of goalposts to me.  Hydroxychloroquine was touted by Trump and Hannity and others as a potential miracle cure.  Then it became Hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin.  As soon as that was shown to offer no improvement and potential harm it got switched to Hydroxchloroquine + azithromycin + zinc.

The support for this trio-cocktail is about what it was when this whole thing began with just hydroxychloroquine; which is basically zilch in terms of clinical studies. Like hydroxychloroquine, zinc carries its own side effects nad risk, particulalry when taken in larger doses.  Its a heavy metal.  It can cause liver damage, particularly in people who already have liver damage.

We ought to be even more skeptical of adding a third chemical to a cocktail of drugs which has already been shown to be ineffective and potentially dangerous.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1615
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2020, 01:22:44 PM »
When you take a drug cocktail and something goes wrong, you have no idea what's causing the problem.   It could be an individual drug or an interaction between multiple drugs that you're taking, or even something unrelated to the drugs.     A common solution is to add another drug, to cancel out the side effects of the current drugs.

I don't know what you're worried about, this sounds like a good plan to me!

Abe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2020, 02:07:07 PM »
What I have heard is hydroxychloroquine + zinc + azithromycin.  The azithromycin might be able to be substituted with another antibiotic.

I might ask for it if I had Covid-19 and moderate symptoms.

The hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combo was recommended against this week by the NIH because both have the same dangerous cardiac side effect, and that side effect was cropping up in treated COVID-19 patients. I wouldn't ask for that combo, but even if you did I'm not sure if you'd get it at this point.

That was before, and separate from, the FDA recommendation against HCQ alone that @nereo just mentioned upthread.

The side effect is a lengthened Qtc. In our covid patients on HCQ the patients are all on continuous cardiac monitoring. We know if they are having this side effect and stop the treatment. I had one patient who had a history of prolonged Qtc. He was not put on HCQ.

This side effect is a non-issue, and a distraction from the basic question of whether the drug combo works or not. Plenty of doctors think it does. Others just hope it does and use it on that hope. There is plenty of good, scientific evidence that it should work, or at least help.

Please cite the evidence. Everything Ive seen suggests it doesnt. Im interested to know since in vitro studies showed it inhibits viral replication in certain cell lines (they didnt try it in pneumocyte cell lines, probably due to time constraints). I dont know enough about the drug to have a strong opinion on it. I do know enough about drug discovery to be suspicious of jumping from in vitro to clinical trials.

I found the following (none of these published yet, like most covid studies):
Chinese RCT, 62 patients, showed benefit in duration of fever and cough by 1 day
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v3

Chinese RCT: 150 patients showed no difference in any clinical outcome
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.10.20060558v1

French case-control study, 20 patients: decreased viral load, no clinical outcome reported
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.16.20037135v1

Meta-analysis of 7 trials/studies: no benefit in clinical outcomes, decrease in viral load noted with HCQ
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20065276v1

US VA retrospective review, 368 patients: higher risk of death on multi variate analysis with HCQ or HCQ+AZ
 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2

Multinational claims data review of safety of HCQ + sulfasalazine or HCQ +AZ: increased 30d cardiac mortality and angina admissions with HCQ+AZ
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.08.20054551v1

Single institution review of QT prolongation in covid-19 patients: 17% had critical prolongation with HCQ+AZ (mostly men), none developed torsades
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.22.20075671v1
another showed 11% risk:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.02.20047050v1

So far it looks like theres improvement in labs, but no clear clinical benefit with some cardiac arrhythmia risk. I agree that QTc prolongation isnt a huge issue, but would like to see some clear benefit first. Azithromycin isnt even that effective against hospital acquired pneumonia, Id use something else if were trying to provide prophylaxis against secondary pneumonias, honestly. Then this wouldnt even be an issue.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:51:46 PM by Abe »

hops

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Location: United States
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2020, 04:30:15 PM »
News on Kevzara, another arthritis treatment being tested on Covid-19 patients:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/27/arthritis-drug-kevzara-disappoints-as-coronavirus-treatment/

Monoclonal antibody/cytokine storm related, if anyone was interested.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2020, 06:44:32 PM »
What I have heard is hydroxychloroquine + zinc + azithromycin.  The azithromycin might be able to be substituted with another antibiotic.

I might ask for it if I had Covid-19 and moderate symptoms.

The hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combo was recommended against this week by the NIH because both have the same dangerous cardiac side effect, and that side effect was cropping up in treated COVID-19 patients. I wouldn't ask for that combo, but even if you did I'm not sure if you'd get it at this point.

That was before, and separate from, the FDA recommendation against HCQ alone that @nereo just mentioned upthread.

The side effect is a lengthened Qtc. In our covid patients on HCQ the patients are all on continuous cardiac monitoring. We know if they are having this side effect and stop the treatment. I had one patient who had a history of prolonged Qtc. He was not put on HCQ.

This side effect is a non-issue, and a distraction from the basic question of whether the drug combo works or not. Plenty of doctors think it does. Others just hope it does and use it on that hope. There is plenty of good, scientific evidence that it should work, or at least help.

No, there's not. Literally the opposite. Jesus Christ.

v8rx7guy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • Location: Bellingham, WA
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2020, 11:12:37 AM »
Apparently University of Washington Medicine is not convinced that the VA trail was the death knell for using HCQ in the treatment for COVID-19.  They are starting another trail administering HCQ  early in the infection time frame and also in conjunction with Azithromycin.  I am very curious to see the results.

https://komonews.com/news/local/new-uw-medicine-clinical-trial-to-treat-covid-19-outpatients-with-hydrocholorquine

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3543
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2020, 12:39:43 PM »
I saw that based on some evaluations of outcomes in China, they are doing a trial of the active ingredient in Pepcid.  Yes, the antacid.

When I read that, I was extremely grateful that just a few days ago I bought some (for antacid purposes) as likely if/when words spreads, there will be a run on it. 

Tom Bri

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
  • Location: Small Town, Flyover Country
  • More just cheap, than Mustachian
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2020, 03:27:02 AM »
What I have heard is hydroxychloroquine + zinc + azithromycin.  The azithromycin might be able to be substituted with another antibiotic.

I might ask for it if I had Covid-19 and moderate symptoms.

The hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combo was recommended against this week by the NIH because both have the same dangerous cardiac side effect, and that side effect was cropping up in treated COVID-19 patients. I wouldn't ask for that combo, but even if you did I'm not sure if you'd get it at this point.

That was before, and separate from, the FDA recommendation against HCQ alone that @nereo just mentioned upthread.

The side effect is a lengthened Qtc. In our covid patients on HCQ the patients are all on continuous cardiac monitoring. We know if they are having this side effect and stop the treatment. I had one patient who had a history of prolonged Qtc. He was not put on HCQ.

This side effect is a non-issue, and a distraction from the basic question of whether the drug combo works or not. Plenty of doctors think it does. Others just hope it does and use it on that hope. There is plenty of good, scientific evidence that it should work, or at least help.

No, there's not. Literally the opposite. Jesus Christ.

Yes, there is. Literally decades worth of research. Effects on immune system. Antiviral effects. Little of it directly relevant to the current crisis, but it is suggestive. What we have in recent research is lots of low-quality studies, some of which show strong positive effects and others that show no effects. It's a wash. But to say that there is no evidence that it should be beneficial is simply wrong. Can you differentiate between 'should' and 'does'? Nowhere do I claim strong positive effects. At best, hope.

Tom Bri

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
  • Location: Small Town, Flyover Country
  • More just cheap, than Mustachian
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2020, 03:33:11 AM »


For that matter, if the problem is inflammation in the lungs, why aren't doctors prescribing corticosteroids like prednisone?   They are cheap, fast acting and readily available.

They are being used, but cautiously. The early studies out of China did not show benefit, and some showed negative effects. As far as I know, no one knows why. I have gotten to the point where I no longer read the Chinese studies, since they don't track well with later studies from other countries.

Same with Hydroxychloroquine. Early Chinese studies showed strong benefit, and some of the early Euro and US studies do too, but others do not. So far no real good, long-term studies, due to the fast pace of the pandemic. It'll be years before we have good data.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12516
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2020, 05:06:01 AM »


For that matter, if the problem is inflammation in the lungs, why aren't doctors prescribing corticosteroids like prednisone?   They are cheap, fast acting and readily available.

They are being used, but cautiously. The early studies out of China did not show benefit, and some showed negative effects. As far as I know, no one knows why. I have gotten to the point where I no longer read the Chinese studies, since they don't track well with later studies from other countries.

Same with Hydroxychloroquine. Early Chinese studies showed strong benefit, and some of the early Euro and US studies do too, but others do not. So far no real good, long-term studies, due to the fast pace of the pandemic. It'll be years before we have good data.

Medical ethics are very clear: in the absence of good data we must proceed with an abundance of caution. The existence of decent studies which failed to find a significant benefit or found a negative impact should be deeply concerning even among others which demonstrate a positive outcome.  You are correct that we will not know the long term impacts for some time.  First, do no harm.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2020, 06:46:43 AM »
Yes, there is. Literally decades worth of research. Effects on immune system. Antiviral effects. Little of it directly relevant to the current crisis, but it is suggestive. What we have in recent research is lots of low-quality studies, some of which show strong positive effects and others that show no effects. It's a wash. But to say that there is no evidence that it should be beneficial is simply wrong. Can you differentiate between 'should' and 'does'? Nowhere do I claim strong positive effects. At best, hope.

https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2

Quote
A malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported.

The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment. But with 368 patients, its the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin for COVID-19, which has killed more than 171,000 people as of Tuesday.

Quote
About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.

Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.

The largest study to date showed no difference and more deaths in patients who were given hydroxychloroquine.

The first person to widely promote hydroxychloroquine faked his credentials to get on Fox News, where President Trump then picked it up and started promoting it (he has a financial stake in a company that produces it....hmmm....).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8143845/Malaria-cure-coronavirus-promoter-cryptocurrency-hustler-fake-Stanford-University-claim.html
Quote
Rigano first touted the use of chloroquine on Monday March 13, publishing a document on Google which was presented to look like a scientific paper, but which is not and which Google has now removed because it is in violation of its terms of service.

It was written by Rigano and by James Todaro, a former ophthalmologist in Dearborn, Michigan, turned cryptocurrency investor.

And now docs are prescribing HCQ based on this bunk scientific paper promoted by a crypto trader and a guy who has to fake his credentials.  Truly wild.

v8rx7guy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • Location: Bellingham, WA
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2020, 08:21:46 AM »
Yes, there is. Literally decades worth of research. Effects on immune system. Antiviral effects. Little of it directly relevant to the current crisis, but it is suggestive. What we have in recent research is lots of low-quality studies, some of which show strong positive effects and others that show no effects. It's a wash. But to say that there is no evidence that it should be beneficial is simply wrong. Can you differentiate between 'should' and 'does'? Nowhere do I claim strong positive effects. At best, hope.

https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2

Quote
A malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported.

The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment. But with 368 patients, its the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin for COVID-19, which has killed more than 171,000 people as of Tuesday.

Quote
About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.

Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.

The largest study to date showed no difference and more deaths in patients who were given hydroxychloroquine.

The first person to widely promote hydroxychloroquine faked his credentials to get on Fox News, where President Trump then picked it up and started promoting it (he has a financial stake in a company that produces it....hmmm....).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8143845/Malaria-cure-coronavirus-promoter-cryptocurrency-hustler-fake-Stanford-University-claim.html
Quote
Rigano first touted the use of chloroquine on Monday March 13, publishing a document on Google which was presented to look like a scientific paper, but which is not and which Google has now removed because it is in violation of its terms of service.

It was written by Rigano and by James Todaro, a former ophthalmologist in Dearborn, Michigan, turned cryptocurrency investor.

And now docs are prescribing HCQ based on this bunk scientific paper promoted by a crypto trader and a guy who has to fake his credentials.  Truly wild.

Why do you think UW is willing to do yet another study if it's so obvious that it doesn't work?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12516
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2020, 08:32:54 AM »

Why do you think UW is willing to do yet another study if it's so obvious that it doesn't work?
Cynically:  Grant money. 
More optimistically: To bring clarity to previous studies and hopefully gain some insight about future promising pathways.  There's value in knowing when and why and for whom it doesn't work, and potentially there may be circumstances when it does (i.e. during early administration, as is the intent of this particualr study).

Don't discount grant money and confirming a negative result though.  As a researcher myself there's a lot of projects who's expectation going in is to refute a current hypothesis.  Negative results are still valuable.  This is part of the scientific method.

Abe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2020, 08:40:02 PM »
It says on their website theyve been given money by the Gates foundation to study its use for post-exposure prophylaxis based on an in vitro study that noted decreased viral replication in a monkey cell line (kidney cells). Its the kind of thing thatd not be funded at all in conventional times, but here we are. So it meets both of @nereo s possible explanations. They dont reference any clinical studies showing a benefit for symptomatic covid-19 patients. They specifically exclude people with heart disease, or on any medication that could interact with HCQ to cause arrhythmia. Also the trial started before the latest data on HCQ came out. I think overall its a low risks study that has a better chance of success than therapeutic trials on critically ill patients.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 08:44:24 PM by Abe »

Pizzabrewer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 626
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2020, 09:03:28 PM »
So theres new data out showing that Remdesivir has a positive effect.

Abe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2020, 10:29:30 PM »
Yeah it shortens average length of hospitalization by 3 days (11 vs 14). Its not clear theres a difference in survival (8 vs 11%, p value not given). This was an interim analysis and needs to be reviewed further.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2020, 02:35:05 PM »
"Sen. Charles Schumer of New York said the VA needs to provide Congress more information about a recent bulk order for $208,000 worth of hydroxychloroquine. President Donald Trump has heavily promoted the malaria drug, without evidence, as a treatment for Covid-19."

"The analysis of hospital data, done by independent researchers at two universities with VA approval, was not a rigorous experiment. Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 older male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at VA medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% of veterans who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/10/schumer-veterans-coronavirus-drugs-247059

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4539
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2020, 03:14:30 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12516
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2020, 03:34:49 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5207
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2020, 03:38:31 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

I tend to agree.

hops

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Location: United States
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2020, 09:59:53 AM »
For those of us who require this medication for conditions that actually call for it, his latest announcement was like a scene from a horror movie -- just when you think the monster's been dispatched, it pops right back to life. The chances he's actually taking it are slim to none, but either way all this does is jeopardize the health of his most ardent followers, people whose health is probably in enough jeopardy already if they're following his lead on other C19 matters.

Fireball

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2020, 10:23:03 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.   

sixwings

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 140
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2020, 10:26:29 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

It's very possible he's being given a gummy bear and told it's medicine.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2020, 10:27:28 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.
I disagree. It's the bestest bigly drug. Some very good, in fact great people like this drug. It's good and fantastic. In fact some very good people say it might even cure windmill cancer. We shall call it the "super duper drug."   
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 10:29:43 AM by MasterStache »

js82

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 363
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2020, 10:36:27 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.

It's entirely possible that his doctor prescribed him a too-low-to-hurt, too-low-to-possibly-help dose, as well.  Both the efficacy and side effects of just about any drug are dose-dependent.

The doctors taking care of the president would not allow him to take something that they think has any meaningful risk of harm.  Particularly when there are other drugs out there that show some benefit that are potentially lower-risk.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 10:38:15 AM by js82 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2020, 11:10:40 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.
I disagree. It's the bestest bigly drug. Some very good, in fact great people like this drug. It's good and fantastic. In fact some very good people say it might even cure windmill cancer. We shall call it the "super duper drug."

Windmill cancer is the toughest cancer to cure. . .

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2020, 11:24:39 AM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.
I disagree. It's the bestest bigly drug. Some very good, in fact great people like this drug. It's good and fantastic. In fact some very good people say it might even cure windmill cancer. We shall call it the "super duper drug."

Windmill cancer is the toughest cancer to cure. . .
I am sure a few doses of Hydroxychloroquine with a side of bleach and a dab of UV light would do the trick.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2020, 12:58:35 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.
I disagree. It's the bestest bigly drug. Some very good, in fact great people like this drug. It's good and fantastic. In fact some very good people say it might even cure windmill cancer. We shall call it the "super duper drug."

Windmill cancer is the toughest cancer to cure. . .
I am sure a few doses of Hydroxychloroquine with a side of bleach and a dab of UV light would do the trick.

Only if Mexico pays for it!

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2020, 01:10:17 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.

It's entirely possible that his doctor prescribed him a too-low-to-hurt, too-low-to-possibly-help dose, as well.  Both the efficacy and side effects of just about any drug are dose-dependent.

The doctors taking care of the president would not allow him to take something that they think has any meaningful risk of harm.  Particularly when there are other drugs out there that show some benefit that are potentially lower-risk.

That is my guess. That if he demanded it, his doctors are giving him a close to placebo level dose. No side effects but no benefits either. And I don't think any of these studies looked at propholactic use of this drug, so that adds to the stupidity.  Drug trials take months to go through, and also this is not a quick infection. There are people in the hospital 6 weeks after being admitted. I think we are going to have to look at alot of different treatments, get inspiration from what docs are testing "live" that seem beneficial, and go from there. But we won't have a lot of answers until some time passes.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:12:15 PM by partgypsy »

Pizzabrewer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 626
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2020, 01:47:30 PM »
Q    Can you explain, sir, though, you what is the evidence that it has a preventative effect?

THE PRESIDENT:  Here we go.  Are you ready?  Heres my evidence.  I get a lot of positive calls about it.  The only negative Ive heard was the study where they gave it was it the VA?  With, you know, people that arent big Trump fans gave it and weve done the greatest job maybe of anything in the VA, because I got VA Choice and VA Accountability both approved.  Accountability, Tilman, is where you can fire bad people that work in the VA that you couldnt fire them.

We had thousands of people that were sadists, that were stealing, that were robbers, that were horrible people.  Theyd beat up our veterans.  They couldnt do it in primetime, but they did it when they were sick.

And we got Accountability.  Nobody thought you could get it because of the unions and civil service.  I got it passed so that now you fire bad people in the VA.  We got rid of tremendously bad people that should have never been there.  But I also got probably, even more importantly, if you can say that; maybe not VA Choice.

So if you have to wait on line for a doctor, you go outside, you have a private doctor, we pay the bill.  We work out deals with doctors.  We have pricing.  So you go out, you pay the bill.  And it was a great thing that we did, so weve done a great job with the VA.

But they had a report come out and the results of the report it was a very unscientific report, by the way.  But I get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy.  And I say, Hey.  You know the expression Ive used, Jon?  What do you have to lose?  Okay?  What do you have to lose?

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2020, 02:36:59 PM »
With, you know, people that arent big Trump fans gave it and weve done the greatest job maybe of anything in the VA, because I got VA Choice and VA Accountability both approved.

Btw, President Obama signed this into law in 2014: https://apnews.com/375515aecedb4aed949e4f2eb9c54eb6

I know the media has just baked in Trump's incessant lying, but no reason we need to accept it.

hops

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Location: United States
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2020, 07:41:24 AM »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2020, 08:02:42 AM »
The latest in a line of damning studies:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/22/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-study/

Fake news libtard deep state lame stream media smear piece.

Bateaux

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1733
  • Location: Port Vincent
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2020, 04:04:49 PM »
If I knew my doctor supports Trump,  I'd get a new doctor.

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4539
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2020, 05:19:56 PM »
The latest in a line of damning studies:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/22/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-study/

Fake news libtard deep state lame stream media smear piece.

Nailed it!

Quote from: thedonald.win
WAPO is filled up to the gills with Deep State CIA psyop operatives.

Quote
Fuck the Lamestream media.

Etc., etc.

Maybe these comments are generated from an algorithm?

---------
from random import randrange

if article.source == "Washington Post":
  rand = randrange(10)
  if rand < 7:
    print "WAPO is deep state media!"
  else:
    print "Chinese garbage!"
---------


Fireball

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2020, 05:20:30 PM »
Well, Trump is taking it and has been for almost 2 weeks now. His "evidence" of its efficacy is that he's heard about it working from lots of people.

Lancet published an editorial about Trump's belief in "magic bullets" last week.

Im not convinced that Trump is actually taking it.   Hes lied about so much else- particularly when it comes to his health.
By saying hes taking it (even if he isnt) hes doubling down on his earlier hype without any actual side effects.  His backers get to say well he seems to be just fine! (As if thats some great endorsement of a medicine) and if the president is taking it certainly it has to be good!

Absolute zero chance that he's taking HCQ. He's just trying to save face.

It's entirely possible that his doctor prescribed him a too-low-to-hurt, too-low-to-possibly-help dose, as well.  Both the efficacy and side effects of just about any drug are dose-dependent.

The doctors taking care of the president would not allow him to take something that they think has any meaningful risk of harm.  Particularly when there are other drugs out there that show some benefit that are potentially lower-risk.

Entirely possible, but given Trump's propensity for lying, I think the default stance has to be that he's doing what comes most natural to him.

js82

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 363
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2020, 08:52:48 AM »
If I knew my doctor supports Trump,  I'd get a new doctor.

I don't care who people I interact with support politically, as long as they're competent at what they do and treat others with decency.  If they let their political biases affect how they do their job, that's another matter entirely.

That said, the body of evidence regarding hydroxychloroquine has evolved, and not positively.  Two months ago you could make a case that it was worth exploring further based off the preliminary data.  Now I don't think you can justify hydroxychloroquine over alternatives(say, remdesevir) given the mounting body of evidence.  I see clinging to hydroxychloroquine as a treatment of choice as a decision that's likely to be motivated by political biases rather than rational examination of data, given the scientific evidence against it at the present time.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2020, 02:21:30 PM »
Can you make a case where a rational, competent medical practitioner would support the Donald Trump?  I'm just going through the things that Trump has done that are pandemic related (dismantling the US's response organizations, ignoring information about the pandemic he received early on, telling people to use dangerous and untested drugs, accusing medical practitioners of lying about the amounts of PPE they need, accusing medical practitioners of stealing PPE, continuously failing to act in the manner recommended by his medical advisors, etc.) and I'm not sure the case can honestly be made.  A doctor would have to be irrational or incompetent to support Trump based on his pandemic response alone, so it's probably a good idea to avoid someone like that if possible.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2020, 08:45:57 AM »
Can you make a case where a rational, competent medical practitioner would support the Donald Trump?  I'm just going through the things that Trump has done that are pandemic related (dismantling the US's response organizations, ignoring information about the pandemic he received early on, telling people to use dangerous and untested drugs, accusing medical practitioners of lying about the amounts of PPE they need, accusing medical practitioners of stealing PPE, continuously failing to act in the manner recommended by his medical advisors, etc.) and I'm not sure the case can honestly be made.  A doctor would have to be irrational or incompetent to support Trump based on his pandemic response alone, so it's probably a good idea to avoid someone like that if possible.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-trump-doctors-publicly-support-reopening-views-coronavirus-pandemic/

The sad fact that they need an initiative to find doctors is truly frightening. I mean, all you have to do is make reasonable, responsible decisions and doctors are likely to support you.