Author Topic: Would you support the police being more involved in prosecuting "smaller" crime?  (Read 2172 times)

ender

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Recent thread on police not responding to harassment types of calls made me wonder.

Would you want the police more proactively investigating and taking action against "smaller" crimes that currently are not really enforced consistently? If so, why and what types of crimes?

Kris

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Recent thread on police not responding to harassment types of calls made me wonder.

Would you want the police more proactively investigating and taking action against "smaller" crimes that currently are not really enforced consistently? If so, why and what types of crimes?

Yes.... Except, seems to me that the "smaller" crimes are often enforced inconsistently across racial lines. So, in theory yes, in practice... my gut tells me it won't end well.

BDWW

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No, the criminal justice system is a mess as is, and adults/society generally shouldn't need nannies. Especially because such a system would likely be extremely regressive and hit poorer communities much harder.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 01:52:38 PM by BDWW »

ixtap

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I have lived in countries based on the Napoleonic code wherein the police are part of the judiciary, rather than the administrative side of government. Things can get weird fast, even front a local perspective.

Our system isn't perfect, but at least we have a theoretical check and balance in place.

PoutineLover

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I would be interested in the police pursuing certain "smaller" crimes that actually harmed people, if the resources needed were removed from areas which currently get over-enforced, but not if it meant expanding the police force even more.
Increased focus on:
harassment, stalking and domestic violence
theft of personal property (not stores)
dangerous driving especially with regards to drivers causing harm to cyclists and pedestrians
Less focus on:
Stop and frisk type of activities that waste time and racially profile law abiding people
parking tickets (except for obstruction of traffic type issues)
personal drug possession
public drinking/loitering because in practice it ends up just penalizing homeless people who can't pay fines anyway, or people who just want to enjoy an adult beverage in a park and aren't hurting anyone
jaywalking when there is 0 traffic and cops hide behind the corner to pounce and give stupid tickets to hit their quotas

Overall, police already waste a ton of resources policing stupid crimes and over-policing already marginalized people, so they may as well shift their focus to crimes that actually hurt people

ender

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harassment, stalking and domestic violence


This is actually the specific example I was thinking of before creating this.

PoutineLover

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harassment, stalking and domestic violence


This is actually the specific example I was thinking of before creating this.
Yeah I figured, from the other thread.
It's one area that police are particularly bad at enforcing existing laws. I think that to be more effective, they would need a lot more training and perhaps partner with organizations who work specifically in those areas. My experience reporting online harassment showed me that the cops I spoke to had no idea what the law was, how to enforce it, and they didn't take the crime seriously.

Cassie

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BikeFanatic

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EricL

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I think the police should focus on all crime as they get it reported, triaging them according to resources if possible.  I would love to see more white collar criminals and government officials who get prosecuted do serious time.  I feel greater responsibility means they should be liable for greater punishment.  I'm OK with prosecuting vagrants for their crimes as well.  I don't believe being poor/marginalized gives you license to do as you please anymore than being rich and famous. 

I'm definitely against Police in speed traps or trying to meet quotas. 

Bloop Bloop

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No, the criminal justice system is a mess as is, and adults/society generally shouldn't need nannies. Especially because such a system would likely be extremely regressive and hit poorer communities much harder.

What if the police focused on 'small' crimes that involved violence or aggression against the person, e.g. domestic violence, harassment, stalking and so on? That is not something to do with a nanny state, and it should not be regressive, in that I doubt poor communities would fail to welcome a crackdown on violence and aggression.

BDWW

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No, the criminal justice system is a mess as is, and adults/society generally shouldn't need nannies. Especially because such a system would likely be extremely regressive and hit poorer communities much harder.

What if the police focused on 'small' crimes that involved violence or aggression against the person, e.g. domestic violence, harassment, stalking and so on? That is not something to do with a nanny state, and it should not be regressive, in that I doubt poor communities would fail to welcome a crackdown on violence and aggression.

First, domestic violence in my experience is treated significantly more serious than the second two in your examples. I'm not sure it needs to be more aggressively enforced. Which sort of leads in to the second point.

You claim it's not something to do with a nanny state, I disagree. The reason is that harassment, stalking, etc, even modern definitions of sexual "assault"  are both cultural and subjective. Some people's definition of harassment includes saying hello, or an unwanted phone call. These might fit into my definition depending greatly on the exact circumstances, tone, demeanor etc. Some people's definition of assault might be going in for a first date kiss without asking for "consent." Other people would claim that's ridiculous.

The point is, there's a huge swath of grey. In my opinion there's likely no practical way to objectively define these situations for greater enforcement without venturing into oppressive or nanny state territory. So in order to avoid unjustly persecuting people, the bar should be high. Unfortunately, that probably means a fair amount of it doesn't get punished. It's a trade off. The same reason we have "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard for criminal conviction.

Hopefully that explains why I'm very leery of what's meant by greater enforcement.

PoutineLover

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No, the criminal justice system is a mess as is, and adults/society generally shouldn't need nannies. Especially because such a system would likely be extremely regressive and hit poorer communities much harder.

What if the police focused on 'small' crimes that involved violence or aggression against the person, e.g. domestic violence, harassment, stalking and so on? That is not something to do with a nanny state, and it should not be regressive, in that I doubt poor communities would fail to welcome a crackdown on violence and aggression.

First, domestic violence in my experience is treated significantly more serious than the second two in your examples. I'm not sure it needs to be more aggressively enforced. Which sort of leads in to the second point.

You claim it's not something to do with a nanny state, I disagree. The reason is that harassment, stalking, etc, even modern definitions of sexual "assault"  are both cultural and subjective. Some people's definition of harassment includes saying hello, or an unwanted phone call. These might fit into my definition depending greatly on the exact circumstances, tone, demeanor etc. Some people's definition of assault might be going in for a first date kiss without asking for "consent." Other people would claim that's ridiculous.

The point is, there's a huge swath of grey. In my opinion there's likely no practical way to objectively define these situations for greater enforcement without venturing into oppressive or nanny state territory. So in order to avoid unjustly persecuting people, the bar should be high. Unfortunately, that probably means a fair amount of it doesn't get punished. It's a trade off. The same reason we have "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard for criminal conviction.

Hopefully that explains why I'm very leery of what's meant by greater enforcement.
But in practice, our current state of affairs results in very little enforcement of those crimes, the belief among rapists and abusers that they can get away with it because no one cares, and the belief among survivors that even if they do report a crime, they will be labeled liars, attention seekers and sluts. We are far enough on the side of not giving a shit about those crimes right now, that a slight shift to enforcing those laws slightly more will definitely not swing into nanny state territory. Why is it more necessary in your world to protect criminals from prosecution, than it is to protect victims of assault from their abusers?

BDWW

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But in practice, our current state of affairs results in very little enforcement of those crimes, the belief among rapists and abusers that they can get away with it because no one cares, and the belief among survivors that even if they do report a crime, they will be labeled liars, attention seekers and sluts 1. We are far enough on the side of not giving a shit about those crimes right now 2, that a slight shift to enforcing those laws slightly more will definitely not swing into nanny state territory. Why is it more necessary in your world to protect criminals innocents 3 from prosecution, than it is to protect victims of assault from their abusers?

1. That's an issue, but again cultural, and not sure what legal move would change this.
2. Perhaps, but again I'm not sure I can agree with your definition of "crimes".
3. Fixed to appropriately represent my view. It's my philosophical/moral/world view that punishing innocents is one of the most egregious things a society a could do.

Given an imperfect world I would rather err on the side of protecting innocent people from persecution and allow some crime to go unpunished than to catch 100% of crime (impossible) and end up persecuting a large swath of innocent people.

Jon Bon

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I had a drunk guy being chased by the cops run across my property and tried to spider man his way down the drain pipe. The police woke my tenants up at 3am and encouraged them to press charges, so they did. I suspect the cops wanted him for open container, underage drinking or something like that.

The damage to the house was about $3 so I did not investigate further. 

Later I got a call from his lawyer, basically telling me more of the story and making sure I was taken care of. I guess offereing to cover any damage to head off potential lawsuits?

I really wanted nothing to do with the guy, I dont want money, I DEFINITELY dont want hassle, I need to go to court like I need a hole in the head. Cops have better things to do then chase college kids around for drinking too much.


PoutineLover

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But in practice, our current state of affairs results in very little enforcement of those crimes, the belief among rapists and abusers that they can get away with it because no one cares, and the belief among survivors that even if they do report a crime, they will be labeled liars, attention seekers and sluts 1. We are far enough on the side of not giving a shit about those crimes right now 2, that a slight shift to enforcing those laws slightly more will definitely not swing into nanny state territory. Why is it more necessary in your world to protect criminals innocents 3 from prosecution, than it is to protect victims of assault from their abusers?

1. That's an issue, but again cultural, and not sure what legal move would change this.
2. Perhaps, but again I'm not sure I can agree with your definition of "crimes".
3. Fixed to appropriately represent my view. It's my philosophical/moral/world view that punishing innocents is one of the most egregious things a society a could do.

Given an imperfect world I would rather err on the side of protecting innocent people from persecution and allow some crime to go unpunished than to catch 100% of crime (impossible) and end up persecuting a large swath of innocent people.
1. Law enforcement at every level from police officers to judges reinforces the cultural perception by making it nearly impossible to "prove" a crime occurred at all, let alone that the person in question did it, perpetuating rape myths, and acting as if the victim was the criminal or that they asked for it.
2. The crimes I'm talking about here are domestic violence, stalking and harassment, as was stated in the post quoted. I think the specific laws vary by jurisdiction, but almost everywhere has at least some sort of law against those behaviours.
3. The problem is that in our current system, far more guilty people go unpunished, than innocents getting punished for crimes they didn't do. Already there are probably 2-5% of people in jail who are innocent, and it's probably fairly consistent across all crimes. I would also like to reduce that to zero, but I don't think the way to do it just ignore certain crimes. I think there needs to be better training for law enforcement on the crimes in question, including better interview techniques that take into account trauma response, more timely analysis of rape kits, and more support for victims, as well as education on rape myths and domestic violence for police, judges and the public. Proper handling of cases would help prevent innocents from being charged, and also aid in the prosecution of the actual criminals.


shenlong55

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But in practice, our current state of affairs results in very little enforcement of those crimes, the belief among rapists and abusers that they can get away with it because no one cares, and the belief among survivors that even if they do report a crime, they will be labeled liars, attention seekers and sluts 1. We are far enough on the side of not giving a shit about those crimes right now 2, that a slight shift to enforcing those laws slightly more will definitely not swing into nanny state territory. Why is it more necessary in your world to protect criminals innocents 3 from prosecution, than it is to protect victims of assault from their abusers?

1. That's an issue, but again cultural, and not sure what legal move would change this.
2. Perhaps, but again I'm not sure I can agree with your definition of "crimes".
3. Fixed to appropriately represent my view. It's my philosophical/moral/world view that punishing innocents is one of the most egregious things a society a could do.

Given an imperfect world I would rather err on the side of protecting innocent people from persecution and allow some crime to go unpunished than to catch 100% of crime (impossible) and end up persecuting a large swath of innocent people.

I wonder how much of the difference in emphasis on this issue comes down to the fact that conservatives tend to think that crime should be harshly punished whereas liberals tend towards less harsh punishments and reform.  Of course, I'm always going to be concerned with persecuting innocent people.  But I would be less concerned if our system was set up properly to account for the fact that mistakes will be made (for example).  Instead of trying and failing to avoid persecuting innocent people by requiring absurd levels of proof, I'd rather create a system that accounts for the fact that we are human and we will make mistakes.

BDWW

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1. Are suggesting the burden of proof be removed? Or are talking about, as I mentioned - culture, specifically culture of law enforcement? Ok, so I'll ask again what legal move would fix this?
2. You restated the names of crimes... ok. I presented examples of definitions of crimes. Again, I'm against a definition of those crimes that is subjective and/or cultural. It needs to be objective.
3. I'm not sure where to go with this? Are you suggesting we accept a higher level of innocent imprisonment? To the second part,  I believe saying "ignoring" crime is disingenuous to the idea of needing objective measures to prosecute. I'm not sure who would argue against the idea of better training and investigative techniques where feasible. This sort of addresses my question in part 1.

But almost all of this is tangential to the reason I expressed opposition to the OP.

Perhaps better defining the premise would get closer to the question.

Why do you believe the crimes are not currently adequately addressed?

GuitarStv

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Yes.

Mostly because in my neighbourhood, once every year or so I'll run into blasting music at 3:00 am on a Tuesday night.  Music loud enough to literally rattle the cups in the cupboard of my house, with all my windows closed.  I like to be able to call the police and have them shut the party down within a half an hour . . . both for my own sanity/peace of mind, but also because we've had three shootings in our neighborhood at such parties.

rocketpj

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I'd like to see the police more involved in bigger crime. 

The police have never hesitated to show up when a teenager gets caught shoplifting or making noise.  I suppose that is important and they should be involved.

However, when a huge corporation (e.g. Wells Fargo) literally steals billions from its own customers, the police are somehow unable to take any meaningful action.  2008 was full of examples.

I think it is a lot simpler and less expensive to prosecute 'simple' crimes, and so petty thieves go to jail while rapacious billionaires to go their yachts.  I'd like to see the police and prosecutors with the resources and incentives necessary to go after large scale criminals.

GuitarStv

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I'd like to see the police more involved in bigger crime. 

The police have never hesitated to show up when a teenager gets caught shoplifting or making noise.  I suppose that is important and they should be involved.

However, when a huge corporation (e.g. Wells Fargo) literally steals billions from its own customers, the police are somehow unable to take any meaningful action.  2008 was full of examples.

I think it is a lot simpler and less expensive to prosecute 'simple' crimes, and so petty thieves go to jail while rapacious billionaires to go their yachts.  I'd like to see the police and prosecutors with the resources and incentives necessary to go after large scale criminals.

I'm in agreement with you on much of this.  This isn't a police issue though, it's an issue related to justice in general.  As a society, we seem to have decided that white collar crimes aren't worthy of as much punishment as the horrible crimes committed by the poors.

soccerluvof4

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I'd like to see the police more involved in bigger crime. 

The police have never hesitated to show up when a teenager gets caught shoplifting or making noise.  I suppose that is important and they should be involved.

However, when a huge corporation (e.g. Wells Fargo) literally steals billions from its own customers, the police are somehow unable to take any meaningful action.  2008 was full of examples.

I think it is a lot simpler and less expensive to prosecute 'simple' crimes, and so petty thieves go to jail while rapacious billionaires to go their yachts.  I'd like to see the police and prosecutors with the resources and incentives necessary to go after large scale criminals.

I'm in agreement with you on much of this.  This isn't a police issue though, it's an issue related to justice in general.  As a society, we seem to have decided that white collar crimes aren't worthy of as much punishment as the horrible crimes committed by the poors.



I agree and so much of this could be detoured a bit if more and more people in High Exposure positions when something new really hits would be used as examples. I.E. these peeps of late cheating to get kids into college. Throw the book at them and I would think it would discourage at the very least a large amount of people doing this. To me this is an opportunity to send a strong message this wont be tolerated!!!! but instead my gut tells me it will be if you have the money you can buy yourself out of anything.

GuitarStv

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The thing is, we live in a pretty capitalist society.  Letting rich people buy their way out of trouble is the epitome of the free market.  There's a very large group of people who believe that the poor are poor because of moral failing . . . not because of luck.  If that's the case, then the rich are rich because of moral superiority . . . so why should the legal system treat them the same way?

PoutineLover

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Why do you believe the crimes are not currently adequately addressed?
Because people who are victims of those crimes (specifically domestic violence, harassment, stalking, and I'd also add sexual assault) don't get taken seriously when they report, or they get blamed and shamed when they report, people who commit those crimes are often repeat offenders and rarely face any consequences, and those crimes are extremely common. Victims seem to face more stigma than offenders, and the way the legal system is set up, it's very difficult to obtain a conviction.

Poundwise

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I'd like to see more investigation of cybercrime.  And prosecution of phone and email scammers and spammers. 

And prosecution of people who make nuisance calls to police and emergency services as well. 

As for prosecution of things like vandalism, bike and auto theft, harassment... it seems that sometimes police don't take these things seriously in poor areas but they do hurt the quality of life in an area a lot. Being the victim of a robbery can really throw a wrench into the life of a person already living on the edge.