The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: jim555 on May 25, 2018, 04:59:44 PM
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I see this all over. Does it have some hidden meaning? Is it LGB related? Feminism?
Personally I think it looks hideous, especially on an older woman. Young girls get a pass because they do weird stuff naturally. Nose rings, tattoos, NOOOooo!
Maybe I am just getting old? How come the music today sucks compared to the 70s, 80s and even the 90s? Now get off the lawn!
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It is pretty and fun. Period. Which is why guys are also doing it.
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A lot of my daughter's friends are doing this. There doesn't appear to be any subtext or hidden meaning, it's just girls trying to be pretty and making fashion choices that the older generation doesn't approve of, just like you did when you were little and like every generation did before that.
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I had purple hair for a while when I was 17. I did it primarily because I thought it was pretty and had a friend with dye who offered to do it for me. I also felt that I had undergone some significant personal changes and liked the idea of changing my appearance to signify that. If I thought I could get away with it at work, I'd consider some blue streaks now. I'm not interested in whether you find me hideous.
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It is pretty and fun. Period.
Yup. That.
It's helpful to consider that women do not make all their choices based on whether it will attract men (or women). You thinking it's attractive or not makes no difference to their lives whatsoever. Some things are just for fun. I used to paint my toenails dark green because I like that color. It was not sexy and that's absolutely fine. My demon skull earrings weren't attractive, either. Didn't care then, don't care now.
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You might think they looked hideous but
you've just revealed yourself to be hideous.
[MOD NOTE: Maybe not hideous, just crotchety, which the OP acknowledged with self-deprecating humour.]
Why judge someone for their appearance if they are happy with it? The meaning behind colored hair is "I like my hair this color". Many older woman seem to be doing it because they weren't "allowed" before. Finally we are at a place where many schools and offices don't care what color your hair is
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I see this all over. Does it have some hidden meaning? Is it LGB related? Feminism?
Personally I think it looks hideous, especially on an older woman. Young girls get a pass because they do weird stuff naturally. Nose rings, tattoos, NOOOooo!
Maybe I am just getting old? How come the music today sucks compared to the 70s, 80s and even the 90s? Now get off the lawn!
I have rarely seen this in person, but I don't care for it. I've never seen a guy do it. It's just another one of those odd things that I don't get. Fortunately, we don't have too many freaky people around here.
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It's just fun. Yeah, males do it too. Sprucing up plumage. The more garish shades are jarring at first if you're not used to them.
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I am in my 30s and have put hot pink streaks in my hair several times the past few years. One time I did lavender. I also have a nose stud. I'm a professional, working in an office environment, and it hasn't been a problem so far. I don't care if anyone finds it unattractive. I don't even care if my partner finds it unattractive. It's my hair, my body, my choice. I like it, so I did it.
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It is pretty and fun. Period.
Yup. That.
It's helpful to consider that women do not make all their choices based on whether it will attract men (or women). You thinking it's attractive or not makes no difference to their lives whatsoever. Some things are just for fun. I used to paint my toenails dark green because I like that color. It was not sexy and that's absolutely fine. My demon skull earrings weren't attractive, either. Didn't care then, don't care now.
This. I finally have enough gray hairs that a colored dye will actually show up against my base color of brown-black. I wasn’t allowed to dye my hair when I was a teenager (back then, my friends were dyeing their hair burgundy and purple), so maybe I’ll buy some blue dye to celebrate my 40th birthday next week. I really don’t care whether anyone, particularly some random dude, thinks it’s attractive or hideous, just like I don’t care what people think of my blue toenail polish, Teva sandals, and red lipstick.
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It is pretty and fun. Period.
Yup. That.
It's helpful to consider that women do not make all their choices based on whether it will attract men (or women). You thinking it's attractive or not makes no difference to their lives whatsoever. Some things are just for fun. I used to paint my toenails dark green because I like that color. It was not sexy and that's absolutely fine. My demon skull earrings weren't attractive, either. Didn't care then, don't care now.
This. I finally have enough gray hairs that a colored dye will actually show up against my base color of brown-black. I wasn’t allowed to dye my hair when I was a teenager (back then, my friends were dyeing their hair burgundy and purple), so maybe I’ll buy some blue dye to celebrate my 40th birthday next week. I really don’t care whether anyone, particularly some random dude, thinks it’s attractive or hideous, just like I don’t care what people think of my blue toenail polish, Teva sandals, and red lipstick.
Same. I actually am thinking of getting into wigs, and if I do I will likely get one bright colored one. My youngest sister, who has pale, blue based skin, green eyes, and dark hair, used to dye hers dark burgandy/purple and it looked amazing! I was so envious (I have pale yellow based skin, and cannot carry off any type of purple or violet hue).
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
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Hair is unimportant. It grows out, it grow back. No reason not to have fun with it. Females, and males, do it because it is their prerogative, and because it is not their responsibility to style their hair in ways that appeal to older people who feel they shoud be waring it more conservatively.
Honestly, the older I get, the more befuddled I am that anyone actually gives a shit about other people’s fashion decisions. Much less thinks that their opinion matters.
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It is pretty and fun. Period.
Yup. That.
It's helpful to consider that women do not make all their choices based on whether it will attract men (or women). You thinking it's attractive or not makes no difference to their lives whatsoever. Some things are just for fun. I used to paint my toenails dark green because I like that color. It was not sexy and that's absolutely fine. My demon skull earrings weren't attractive, either. Didn't care then, don't care now.
This. I finally have enough gray hairs that a colored dye will actually show up against my base color of brown-black. I wasn’t allowed to dye my hair when I was a teenager (back then, my friends were dyeing their hair burgundy and purple), so maybe I’ll buy some blue dye to celebrate my 40th birthday next week. I really don’t care whether anyone, particularly some random dude, thinks it’s attractive or hideous, just like I don’t care what people think of my blue toenail polish, Teva sandals, and red lipstick.
Same. I actually am thinking of getting into wigs, and if I do I will likely get one bright colored one. My youngest sister, who has pale, blue based skin, green eyes, and dark hair, used to dye hers dark burgandy/purple and it looked amazing! I was so envious (I have pale yellow based skin, and cannot carry off any type of purple or violet hue).
What about jewel green or fuchsia against a warm toned skin?
I dyed the bottom third of my hair purple a month ago and have gone red/burgundy more times than I can count. I work in a corporate environment and it's part of a game that I'm playing, slowly migrate the color out of acceptable norms to see if anyone comments. It's fun, I love the look, and I don't care if it meets the approval of the general public.
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
I just need to acknowledge how excellent this is.
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I used to have a blue streak for a bit when I was at uni, but I was too lazy to maintain it, so I don't any more. I think in the past unusual shades of hair might have been an indicator of one or more non-mainstream subcultures, but I think these days it's gotten too mainstream to really help in that regard. Even my mum started dying her hair pink, and she's definitely not any sort of alternative.
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It is pretty and fun. Period.
Yup. That.
It's helpful to consider that women do not make all their choices based on whether it will attract men (or women). You thinking it's attractive or not makes no difference to their lives whatsoever. Some things are just for fun. I used to paint my toenails dark green because I like that color. It was not sexy and that's absolutely fine. My demon skull earrings weren't attractive, either. Didn't care then, don't care now.
I had blue hair for a while as a teen. As DS writes, amazing as this may seem to some, women/girls don't always make fashion choices in order to be attractive to men (or women). Fashion is a form of self expression. I did it because it was fun and rebellious and I was 16. Blue hair went with my heavy eyeliner, ripped clothes and doc martens (this was the 80s and my favorite band was the Cure)
If I didn't have such a conservative job now, I'd probably experiment a bit more with hair dye and various styles now too in my 40s. I've also thought about getting a nose ring but that will have to wait for FIRE. One of the great things about FIRE will be that I can dress however I want without having to care what others think. In fact, that's also one of the great things about being in my 40s - I care even less than I did when I was younger whether others approve of the way I look or find me attractive. My DH truly doesn't care. Only problem is that, for now, I have a conservative work place where blue hair dye (or maybe I'd do purple this time) would be a huge no no.
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Not that my opinion of a woman's appearance matters a damn to that woman, but as a hetero male I tend to find those unusual shades of hair very attractive. Different strokes for different folks: just because you think it looks bad, doesn't mean all straight men think the same. Or that women make their decisions on their appearance based on what a hypothetical male might find sexy.
Even if a woman does dye her hair in order to look attractive to straight men, it can be a perfectly rational decision - if there's a consistent pattern to who finds it attractive and who finds it unattractive, then dyeing your hair bright purple is a very straightforward way of minimising the amount of time you spend interacting with the kind of man who finds it unattractive. If, say, a woman cannot stand Coldplay, and realises that Coldplay fans find dyed hair unsexy, then one bottle of purple dye makes her invisible to the men she isn't interested in. Conversely, if she loves watching Doctor Who and listening to Converge, then the same purple dye may well radically raise her profile with men who also love science fiction and deliberately brutal music - or, indeed, with women who share the same interests.
As already pointed out, though, the odds that a woman chooses green hair dye with an eye to pleasing the male gaze are long.
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
I just need to acknowledge how excellent this is.
Me too!!
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Old man yells at wind.
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I find it best not to try to force other people to do things you like and/or to just ignore things other people do that you don't like. Especially if it's harmless stuff. It makes life much less stressful.
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I see this all over. Does it have some hidden meaning? Is it LGB related? Feminism?
Personally I think it looks hideous, especially on an older woman. Young girls get a pass because they do weird stuff naturally. Nose rings, tattoos, NOOOooo!
Maybe I am just getting old? How come the music today sucks compared to the 70s, 80s and even the 90s? Now get off the lawn!
Harmless and fine. Nose rings can be a bit much in the professional setting but even that can be harmless. who cares what color someone’s hair is. Seriously, it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else. It’s hair coloring.
If you’re complaining because employees at a company you own do not appear professional, then you talk to an employment lawyer about how you can address that with a proper company policy. However, aside from being an employer putting forth a company image and dress code, I cannot see any reason to care.
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I don't mind different hair colors, some color jobs look great, others will look not so great, it just depends.
For me, I save a lot of money by not getting into hair color or body modifications or fashion and manicures and makeup and whatnot. I am very, very low maintenance and going natural saves a ton of money.
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We don't really need to complain about how other people dress and live their lives unless it actually affects us, but this is a really hard thing to do.
For instance, I have this inexplicable hate on for:
a) recumbent bicycles
b) crocs
c) this one woman in the caf who used to wear, like, 20 brown paper towels all down the front of her shirt and in her lap whenever she ate lunch. WTF.
Toque.
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FT - I dislike 99% of tattoos but I chose to try to not hate them or look at them much as nowadays pretty much everyone seems to have one. I have no problem with tattoos as a moral issue but I just think they're almost always ugly. I assume that I'm in the minority since everyone else seems to love them.
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
I just need to acknowledge how excellent this is.
Me too!!
Perfection.
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who cares what color someone’s hair is. Seriously, it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else. It’s hair coloring.
Just as a counterpoint to this argument...
Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
I suspect that brightly colored hair sends the same subliminal signal that a brightly colored suit does, specifically "I do not take this job seriously because I am not a serious individual." Maybe that's fine if you're the Vice President, but if you're the new office temp? Why is usually the office temps and not the vice presidents who roll a crazy dye job?
With that in mind, are women undermining their own professional advancement by dying their hair colors that may cause some people (particularly older people in management positions) to view them less seriously?
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who cares what color someone’s hair is. Seriously, it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else. It’s hair coloring.
Just as a counterpoint to this argument...
Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
I suspect that brightly colored hair sends the same subliminal signal that a brightly colored suit does, specifically "I do not take this job seriously because I am not a serious individual." Maybe that's fine if you're the Vice President, but if you're the new office temp? Why is usually the office temps and not the vice presidents who roll a crazy dye job?
With that in mind, are women undermining their own professional advancement by dying their hair colors that may cause some people (particularly older people in management positions) to view them less seriously?
I don’t think that’s a counterpoint. As a business owner, you have a right to control the image of your company within lawful limits. The failure to adhere to dress code is likely to undermine your career. That said, outside of being in charge of a business image, who cares? It’s irrelevant.
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Alternatively, an odd or non-conforming appearance can send the signal "I'm so good at my job I'm not worried about how people perceive the way I dress/look."
In my field, the guy who shows up to meetings in hawaiian shirts and sandals is going to start out with the advantage of being perceived to be much much better at his job than the one who shows up in a suit, or well ironed business causal attire.
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My daughter had streaks of blue when she was in high school.
I think she did it as a way she could rebel, but stay within our, and societies, norms.
She was a very very smart girl, with an independent streak (like her mom), and was dealing with a lot (scoliosis, wore a brace for a few years and then needed titanium rods put next to her spine).
She skipped the 8th grade, was off school for 2 months, and still graduated 3rd in her class, so we were kind of glad to see her express her individualism.
She's now an RN, waiting for Pharmacy school to start. When she graduated from hs, her hair was coal black, also not her natural color.
For her, it was a safe way to rebel against what life threw at her.
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This is why I had blue hair in high school but don't have blue hair now. I now work in a conservative work place where that kind of thing would not fly. In fact, we can't even wear jeans at our office. My plan is to maybe go back to the multicolored hair if I FIRE. I agree that women often shoot themselves in the foot style wise at work as we have more options. I have a colleague who is super smart but wears mini skirts and too tight clothing. People assume she is dumb because of her attire, which is a real shame.
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
I just need to acknowledge how excellent this is.
Me too!!
RGB is for light-based color schemes.
Since hair color is based on pigment, it's actually CMY. :)
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who cares what color someone’s hair is. Seriously, it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else. It’s hair coloring.
Just as a counterpoint to this argument...
Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
I suspect that brightly colored hair sends the same subliminal signal that a brightly colored suit does, specifically "I do not take this job seriously because I am not a serious individual." Maybe that's fine if you're the Vice President, but if you're the new office temp? Why is usually the office temps and not the vice presidents who roll a crazy dye job?
With that in mind, are women undermining their own professional advancement by dying their hair colors that may cause some people (particularly older people in management positions) to view them less seriously?
You have to read the audience.
I now work somewhere that the majority of women don't wear makeup but have rainbow colored hair. It's identical work to my last job where I would have never dyed my hair and wasn't allowed to wear sleeveless shirts.
Because so mant of the women in the iowa office have multicolored hair our VP from New York actually out temporary streaks in his hair to "fit in" when he visited. It was pretty funny.
I don't work with clients. If I did sales I'd probably be more conservative.
When I had brown hair I never got a promotion. I changed jobs to get raises. I've had 2 with pink hair.
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At least in Sweden a lot of women will bleach their hair and get a light tint of a more unusual color, even older women and women in more professional jobs and it is not seen as that strange. Since it is a very weak color it doesn't look as bold and in your face as a bright green or hot pink. It is often pale pink, vanilla-ish white/yellow, pale turquoise or pale grey. A colleague of mine, close to 40 years old has pink hair and I have considered doing a vanilla tint myself (my hair is bleached blond and kind of brassy right now so it might be nice)
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who cares what color someone’s hair is. Seriously, it just doesn’t matter. It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else. It’s hair coloring.
Just as a counterpoint to this argument...
Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
I suspect that brightly colored hair sends the same subliminal signal that a brightly colored suit does, specifically "I do not take this job seriously because I am not a serious individual." Maybe that's fine if you're the Vice President, but if you're the new office temp? Why is usually the office temps and not the vice presidents who roll a crazy dye job?
With that in mind, are women undermining their own professional advancement by dying their hair colors that may cause some people (particularly older people in management positions) to view them less seriously?
I'm self-employed. I wear what I want.
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Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
I suspect that brightly colored hair sends the same subliminal signal that a brightly colored suit does, specifically "I do not take this job seriously because I am not a serious individual." Maybe that's fine if you're the Vice President, but if you're the new office temp? Why is usually the office temps
Because the office temps are usually younger and young people like to be wilder with their appearance. Older women who dye their hair have reached a place where they have the luxury to do what they want and they dgaf what others think of them.
Corporate norms for workplace attire have changed dramatically over the past ten to fifteen years. I think the tech culture of dressing down has pervaded many other corporate cultures as well. The multinational I work at is very lax when it comes to dress as long as you are neat and presentable. Bright hair, bright clothes. Jeans. Opened toes shoes. Bare legs. Visible tattoos. No one seems to care much about these things anymore, performance is what matters. Which, yay, that feels like a huge step forward to me.
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At least in Sweden a lot of women will bleach their hair and get a light tint of a more unusual color, even older women and women in more professional jobs and it is not seen as that strange. Since it is a very weak color it doesn't look as bold and in your face as a bright green or hot pink. It is often pale pink, vanilla-ish white/yellow, pale turquoise or pale grey. A colleague of mine, close to 40 years old has pink hair and I have considered doing a vanilla tint myself (my hair is bleached blond and kind of brassy right now so it might be nice)
Mmmh, Sweden + blue hair... ;)
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At least in Sweden a lot of women will bleach their hair and get a light tint of a more unusual color, even older women and women in more professional jobs and it is not seen as that strange. Since it is a very weak color it doesn't look as bold and in your face as a bright green or hot pink. It is often pale pink, vanilla-ish white/yellow, pale turquoise or pale grey. A colleague of mine, close to 40 years old has pink hair and I have considered doing a vanilla tint myself (my hair is bleached blond and kind of brassy right now so it might be nice)
Mmmh, Sweden + blue hair... ;)
A friend had a very similar style but with green and black highlights.
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I'm self-employed. I wear what I want.
Great! What do you "want" to wear when you meet with new clients?
All I'm saying here is that some professions have certain expectations about what is an appropriate way to present yourself. Artists aren't supposed to wear suits and ties. Bankers aren't supposed to wear Hawaiian shirts. Judges and police officers have specific uniforms, for a reason. Maybe hair color is sometimes considered the same way.
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All I'm saying here is that some professions have certain expectations about what is an appropriate way to present yourself. Artists aren't supposed to wear suits and ties. Bankers aren't supposed to wear Hawaiian shirts. Judges and police officers have specific uniforms, for a reason. Maybe hair color is sometimes considered the same way.
Police wear specific uniforms for the same reason police cars are painted different from normal cars, because it's important to be able to identify them at a glance because they're both allowed to do things non-police members of our society aren't permitted to do, and your obligations when interacting with a police officer are different than with a non-police person. Most people will have a very different reaction if a police car tries to pull me over vs a random dude in a truck.
It seems a little disingenuous to bring up cases like that alongside your examples of bankers and artists, because in those cases -- and most others listed in this thread -- there isn't any particular urgent society need which means bankers need to dress one way and artists dressing another way. As such, those random expectations are a lot easier to circumvent, particularly if you put a little thought into how you do it and how you go about it.
For clothing style, I'm not sure why it would be worth the effort although others may have their own compelling reasons, but for things like dyeing ones hair unnatural colors or tattoos, a person is faced with the trade off between either not presenting an image that perfectly matching people's preconceptions while at work, or having the range image they are able to present in their off-work hours substantially constrained by their occupation.
I think that distinction (people can change their clothes at 5:15 pm every day if they like, but cannot adjust their hair color throughout the day yet) is probably the answer to your original question (reproduced below).
Why does hair color get a pass, but clothing color does not? Why is acceptable to walk into your semi-conservative workplace with bright purple hair, but not a bright purple suit?
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When I was young enough to do this, the only dye that was fashionable was to dye dark hair blond (either straight-up or highlights), because of course blondes are prettier and have more fun. So I went the other way and was sort of adamantly anti-dye -- sort of "this is who I am, I am not going to change myself (literally) so you think I'm prettier, like me or not."
What I really like about the current trend is that it's just fun, pure and simple. There's no deeper meaning, there's no angsting about whether the boys would think fuschia or teal would be prettier -- it's just, I think this might look cool, so let's try it and see. Of course, now I am in the middle of my corporate-ey career -- worse, I am now the senior expert, and my clients expect me to be the wise counselor. So I think a wild color and funky cut would be counterproductive. (Although every year I am more tempted to put that to the test)
But I do think that when I FIRE, I may go electric blue. Or at least some stripes or chunks. I mean, my hair is already pretty grey -- so if I'm going to be a blue-hair anyway, might as well be a BLUE-hair.
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It seems a little disingenuous to bring up cases like that alongside your examples of bankers and artists
I don't think so. We don't respect police officers because of the costume they wear, but the position they hold. I put them next to judges for a reason. The costume is certainly useful out on the streets, but it is not the source of their authority. Plainclothes undercover cops are still cops.
Doctors wear white coats. Why? They certainly aren't a required part of the job, but they help put patients at ease because the costume conveys the authority of their position. Looks matter, when you're dealing with the public. Bankers are "supposed" to wear business suits. Mechanics are "supposed" to wear coveralls. These things are just subtle signals to your customers that you are qualified for you job, and in professions where interacting with customers (like doctors, bankers, and mechanics all do) matters, then you run the risk of subverting that expectation by breaking the dress code. It's not illegal or anything, just personally harmful. A doctor could totally meet with patients just as well while wearing coveralls, but none of them do.
I suspect that typical office environments are more like the artist community, where attire is more often used to signal your position to your peers than to the public. In that scenario, I would expect significantly more leeway because your success and profitability are not being instantly impacted based on the judgment of your appearance.
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- sort of "this is who I am, I am not going to change myself (literally) so you think I'm prettier, like me or not."
That's why I have streaks in my hair - GRAY ones
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It seems a little disingenuous to bring up cases like that alongside your examples of bankers and artists
I don't think so. We don't respect police officers because of the costume they wear, but the position they hold. I put them next to judges for a reason. The costume is certainly useful out on the streets, but it is not the source of their authority. Plainclothes undercover cops are still cops.
Okay at this point I'm afraid not following you, sol. You're saying it doesn't matter whether cops on in plain clothes or in uniform, correct? And this is an argument that clothing style matters?
Or are you saying the reason police officers wear uniforms isn't because it is important to be able to recognize who they are?
Doctors wear white coats. Why? They certainly aren't a required part of the job, but they help put patients at ease because the costume conveys the authority of their position.
Here again I have to disagree. From the few doctors I know who know well enough to talk about this stuff (N=2 so talk it with a grain of salt), they wear white coats because there are lots of people running around a hospital in scrubs, no one can keep track of everyone's name and face, and they feel it is important to immediately know who had an MD and who doesn't at a glance.
I don't know how much of that has to do with knowing who can be reliably be asked to do what in a medical emergency, and how much is about maintaining an social hierarchy among hospital employees but it doesn't seem like it is driven by the desire to create a certain impression in patients/customers. My guess that it's mostly about signaling to other hospital employees is also most consistent with there being lots of nuances that people outside of the hospital staff won't enough know to look for, like med students wearing shorter white lab coats that, depending on the school, won't even fully cover their butts.
Looks matter, when you're dealing with the public. Bankers are "supposed" to wear business suits. Mechanics are "supposed" to wear coveralls. These things are just subtle signals to your customers that you are qualified for you job, and in professions where interacting with customers (like doctors, bankers, and mechanics all do) matters, then you run the risk of subverting that expectation by breaking the dress code. It's not illegal or anything, just personally harmful. A doctor could totally meet with patients just as well while wearing coveralls, but none of them do.
Indeed, but many doctors do meet with patients without wearing a lab coat, (for example in scrubs) depending on the circumstances. I agree it'd be surprising to see a doctor walking around the hospital in coveralls, even though coveralls and scrubs basically perform the same function.
I've dropped my car off with mechanics who were wearing a t-shirt and jeans and others who were coveralls. The fact that it didn't bother me one way or the other is anecdotal, but the fact that I see lots of mechanics not wearing coveralls and they don't seem to be going out of business would seem to indicate that if the clothes are a signaling mechanism to the general public in that particular profession, it's not a particularly strong or critical one.
Look, I'm not trying to argue that the way people dress on the job has no impact on how they're going to be perceived and evaluated. I'm just saying that when you put aside outlier professions like police, there generally isn't an absolute reason we need people from profession X to look like Y. What is left is squishy matters of expectation and recognition, and that's stuff where a motivated individual can come up with other ways to handle the same job that would otherwise be handled by their physical appearance.
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What is left is squishy matters of expectation and recognition, and that's stuff where a motivated individual can come up with other ways to handle the same job that would otherwise be handled by their physical appearance.
Fortunately we're not talking about cases where people are mandated to wear a certain uniform, but cases where people who choose to deviate from the expected uniform may be voluntarily bucking a system from which they require approval for career advancement. Remember that this discussion started with the observation that in some cases, doing crazy shit with your hair can harm your career prospects.
It just struck me that it's primarily women embracing this type of behavioral appearance modification, in an environment where women's behavior and appearance have historically been under heightened scrutiny as part of a longstanding effort to discredit their contributions. I'm pretty sure if I had shown up with rainbow hair on my first day at my new (office) job, my bosses would have been less willing to trust me to take on leadership roles of important new projects. Maybe women suffer the same fate? Maybe "because I thought it was pretty" is a silly reason to sabotage your career? Maybe you think swastika forehead tattoos are pretty, too?
But I'm not against hair dye. You can go bananas with your own head, as far as I'm concerned. Just recognize that not everyone is so enlightened that they can withhold judgment of your crazy appearance, regardless of your motivations. The way we present ourselves is a public signal to those around us, and I think there is value in putting some thought into exactly what you're trying to say.
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What is left is squishy matters of expectation and recognition, and that's stuff where a motivated individual can come up with other ways to handle the same job that would otherwise be handled by their physical appearance.
Fortunately we're not talking about cases where people are mandated to wear a certain uniform, but cases where people who choose to deviate from the expected uniform may be voluntarily bucking a system from which they require approval for career advancement. Remember that this discussion started with the observation that in some cases, doing crazy shit with your hair can harm your career prospects.
Actually the conversation between you and me started out when you brought up the example of police who (in most cases) ARE mandated to wear a specific uniform.
Maybe you think swastika forehead tattoos are pretty, too?
Sol, I recognize that you seem to enjoy a much more no holds bared style when it comes to discussions than I do and I've always tried to be polite in my responses to you regardless of that.
But I would never have expected the requirements of Godwin's law to be satisfied in a discussion about hair dye .
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Which one is *your* favourite? (Apparently this is the new trend - merman hair!)
(http://cdn.earthporm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/merman-hair-1.jpg)
(http://cdn.earthporm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mermanhair1.jpg)
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/merman-hair.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5DYBZZ1gYz2BYQC3tJkBYCPz3smuKUo9GK6kuY_m98d3IcC6E)
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Most of the doctor's I see DON'T wear white coats, as it supposedly makes them look more approachable .
I have seen A LOT of doctors the past 3 years. Mist hughky regarded specialists. Some in outfits I wouldn't have chosen to meet patients in, but they all have their own personal style.
And my primary care provider has purple hair.
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I'm...... Confused. That anyone cares or thinks there is hidden meaning.
As a mid level professional (though engineer to be fair so our dress standards are lower) I had blue hair for awhile. Others have tattoos or piercings or whatever. No one seems to care and it certainly doesn't seem to affect how seriously people are taken.
If anything having something stand out a bit seems like a positive. "You know, Cathy, the one with pink hair". Really I wouldn't want to work with people who are stick in the muds about appearance to the point of penalizing me professionally.
I live in a liberal place, but my friend group definitely would seek out a doctor or lawyer with purple hair or a nose ring.
I'm a 35 year old and I've never dyed my hair a normal color. Just blue.
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FT - I dislike 99% of tattoos but I chose to try to not hate them or look at them much as nowadays pretty much everyone seems to have one. I have no problem with tattoos as a moral issue but I just think they're almost always ugly. I assume that I'm in the minority since everyone else seems to love them.
This is pretty much my opinion of tattoos as well, so you are not alone. I realize that it isn't really my business, its their body, but I don't find them attractive either.
Re: Hair color. My mom owns a hair salon and always has her hair different colors. I am used to it. My issue with the girls who do the blue/green/pink/purple hair is that it seems like most of them can't even bother to wash and/or comb it. I have no issue with non-standard hair colors, but if you go to that much trouble, at least comb it and style it so that it looks nice. If you aren't going to take care of it, why bother??? It just seems like a waste. Again, it isn't my business, but it still bugs me when I see it. LOL
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That first merman guy above looks amazing - love it.
MayDay and others - you have to realize that not all professions are as liberal about appearance as engineering seems to be. My boss had me chat with an intern in our office once because he wore white jeans to work, tons of hair gel, multiple ear piercings and lots of jewellery (yes, he looked like a young George Michael). Apparently, that didn't fly in our work place.
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After 32 years (28 on active duty) of Uncle Sam telling me how long my hair could be and where I could grow it on my face, I'm looking forward to growing a beard and mustache. Not going for the merman blue hair look, I think I'll stick with the grey/salt and pepper look that is natural.
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Meanwhile, my tailor told me a story about a government employee who had a bunch of really nice custom-tailored suits made for his new very high level job working for our previous Prime Minister. His style was very modern and fashionable and the pants and sleeves were all very fitted and tapered. The Prime Minister noticed and had an order sent to him to get new suits that were more old school, looser, conservative, and blended in better. We’re not talking anything super bold here, we’re talking tailoring is custom suits. Yes, some jobs require that much blending in.
In contrast, our current Prime Minister isn’t conservative and is famous for his whacky socks, and I can’t imagine him telling someone to change their suit tailoring. So it’s still not an absolute of the industry or the job. Actually, he probably wouldn’t even mind someone with bright pink hair in his office...actually, he would probably go out of his way to hire someone with bright pink hair...
Malkynn, I am so laughing at this, and remembering the press stories about the socks!
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This whole discussion made me go out and buy pink hair dye. I am seriously going to go for some pink now (the washable kind so it will only be temporary).
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FT - I dislike 99% of tattoos but I chose to try to not hate them or look at them much as nowadays pretty much everyone seems to have one. I have no problem with tattoos as a moral issue but I just think they're almost always ugly. I assume that I'm in the minority since everyone else seems to love them.
This is pretty much my opinion of tattoos as well, so you are not alone. I realize that it isn't really my business, its their body, but I don't find them attractive either.
Re: Hair color. My mom owns a hair salon and always has her hair different colors. I am used to it. My issue with the girls who do the blue/green/pink/purple hair is that it seems like most of them can't even bother to wash and/or comb it. I have no issue with non-standard hair colors, but if you go to that much trouble, at least comb it and style it so that it looks nice. If you aren't going to take care of it, why bother??? It just seems like a waste. Again, it isn't my business, but it still bugs me when I see it. LOL
Yeah, I feel the same way about tattoos. I would never get one and think they are an eye sore. Those merman pictures in this thread are even worse - I need to get that image out of my head. I can't unsee that!
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Eew to the mermen, far too much hair on those guys.
I'll preface this with: I realize what anyone does with their look is none of my business, so I've never talked about it til now, don't think consciously about it much either.
A few years ago a handful of acquaintances in the education industry started dyeing their hair blue, fuschia, etc and still do. As they've aged they've gained a lot of weight, their clothing's less structured to accommodate it, and without the bright hair they'd look....frumpy. They were on the cusp of their 40s and by now are well into them. IMO it's cute on most women until early 30s but on anyone much older looks ridiculous - unless they've got a rare, truly badass style.
But these women feel better about themselves by doing it, they've both got health and lifestyle-related problems and it brightens up their outlook. And yes it's none of my business!
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I have no problem with blue, red,green hair on people - men or women.
I work next door to a fairly high-end hair salon and a couple of the stylists have wild hair colours. One has hair the colour of flames and the other has hair coloured like a yellow hilighter! Beautifully cut and maintained too. I especially like the flame coloured hair - really stunning. Nothing I am interested in personally though - too expensive to maintain.
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Old man yells at wind.
Well, why the hell does the wind have to be so damned windy !!??
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I love colored hair. And short hair. Basically anything non-traditional, I guess...I find it exceptionally attractive. Do a Google image search for Halsey or P!nk -- just...I don't have words. I love that look so much.
This whole discussion made me go out and buy pink hair dye. I am seriously going to go for some pink now (the washable kind so it will only be temporary).
:D
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My son's hair is wildly wavy, long, and currently brown but has been blue, purple, black, and pink. He enjoys strange and non-conforming fashion of all kinds. His favorite t-shirt (you know, that one you're 100% likely to see on him the second it's clean again) is pink with watermelons on it.
I do think at least some of the meaning behind his hair color choice is "My dad would hate this."
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My sister starting in HS started dying her hair. That was before the real wild colors were around, but she did various shades of blonde, auburn (reddish) and also black hair just because. She also cut her hair. So while what she did with her hair was still acceptable job-wise, it was a way to express her mood and style, which was usually edgy. I still remember a time she came to visit me. the last time I saw her her hair was blonde, and shortish. At baggage claim I walk by a woman with almost shoulder length jet black hair wearing mirror aviators, and think to myself, well that person's not from around here. And then the person called my name which totally confused me and I realized it was my sister.
My oldest daughter when in middle school, had a sleep over, and during the sleepover dyed the bottom half a girls hair with koolaid powder, after bleaching it. All done in the bathroom. Which started a cascade of girls in that group dying their hair various colors. When my daughter was getting her haircut, she requested a stripe of color (she decided on red). To me I don't think it had any deeper meaning than experimenting with how one looks. Definitely as a parent, MUCH prefer experimenting with hair, than things that are permanent like tattoos, piercings.
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I have no problem with blue, red,green hair on people - men or women.
I work next door to a fairly high-end hair salon and a couple of the stylists have wild hair colours. One has hair the colour of flames and the other has hair coloured like a yellow hilighter! Beautifully cut and maintained too. I especially like the flame coloured hair - really stunning. Nothing I am interested in personally though - too expensive to maintain.
Me too! I think they are interesting to look at but I don't want to do anything with my hair that is too high maintenance. I aim for a haircut (and now that I'm older, highlights) 1-2 x a year. So it has to grow out gracefully. I am also of the age, where I look askance at any man who spends too much time on their hair. It seems like an affectation.
Another thing I think about, is the effect of animae and cosplay.
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Sol, I recognize that you seem to enjoy a much more no holds bared style when it comes to discussions than I do and I've always tried to be polite in my responses to you regardless of that.
But I would never have expected the requirements of Godwin's law to be satisfied in a discussion about hair dye .
You needn't take everything so personally. It wasn't specifically targeted at you, as an individual, so much as at you, the generic reader. I was trying to highlight that "because I like the way it looks" can be a pretty stupid reason to modify your appearance, if you don't consider how other people will react to your choices.
As in this specific example, if you really love Hinduism and wanted to get a tattoo of the Hindu symbol of good luck because you find it personally meaningful, basically everyone else in the world will think you're a Nazi.
The opinions of other people matter much more than we like to admit. Why can't we just accept that this reasoning applies to hair color (length/style/etc), too?
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Why do women in their 40s/50s dye their hair bright?? Perhaps to feel young, perhaps to cover grey, perhaps because the grey allows them to dye their hair without destroying it. My hair is nearly black. If I were to bleach it to the level required to go pink, it would probably fall out. You'd better believe that once my hair is grey enough I'm going to get my turn with the kool aid colors I could never manage before.
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As in this specific example, if you really love Hinduism and wanted to get a tattoo of the Hindu symbol of good luck because you find it personally meaningful, basically everyone else in the world will think you're a Nazi.
The opinions of other people matter much more than we like to admit. Why can't we just accept that this reasoning applies to hair color (length/style/etc), too?
Another example is giving your kid a crazy name. I've met so many parents who just think "well, I love this name and it's meaningful to me" but unfortunately, the kid is going to have to live with that name and be judged for it, as unfair as that may be. For the record, my kids have uncommon names but they are actual names that people have heard before.
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I was at an investing conference this weekend and one of my favorite young analysts has a funky short haircut and his hair is very pale aqua right now. In the past he has had silver, and I think a brighter blue.
The guy is brilliant though, and he wore a very nice suit.
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The odd color hair has progressed though. Either people have become more knowledgeable or the products have gotten better, but when I was in high school, people would color their hair these odd colors, and it would look good for a week then begin to fade to a nasty looking color. Today, I don't see the faded colors nearly as often. As long as the color doesn't fade to some abomination, I quite like the variety.
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Why do women in their 40s/50s dye their hair bright?? Perhaps to feel young, perhaps to cover grey, perhaps because the grey allows them to dye their hair without destroying it. My hair is nearly black. If I were to bleach it to the level required to go pink, it would probably fall out. You'd better believe that once my hair is grey enough I'm going to get my turn with the kool aid colors I could never manage before.
Good luck... I've found that gray hair won't hold dye, and certainly not kool aid dye :(
I dyed my hair pink in my late 30s because I was never allowed to when I was younger. I like the color pink. It's really hard to get it to stick though, if I even look at a hot shower the "permanent" dye fades. I've found blue lasts much longer. But neither covers my grays :(
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I see this all over. Does it have some hidden meaning? Is it LGB related? Feminism?
Personally I think it looks hideous, especially on an older woman. .
I really like Missy Suicide's green hair.
It's probably a different color by now.
I'd post a pic of her if I knew how to do it.
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I love colored hair. And short hair. Basically anything non-traditional, I guess...I find it exceptionally attractive. Do a Google image search for Halsey or P!nk -- just...I don't have words. I love that look so much.
I like the punk colors AND the punk hair.
Here are some pics (If I succeed at posting them) of Missy Suicide and some punks.
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Fun how i stumbled upon this thread just now. Yesterday I bought some temporary purple dye on the advice of my sister who gave it a try recently. It is more of a wash in that it adds tint without completely covering up your natural hair color. I am blonde so this will work better than darker hair. I’m quite excited to give it a try. I used to do different colors just to be different and have some fun. I am slowly coming out of the fog of having and caring for a young baby and would like to do a little something that is all about ME for a change.
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Wear/dress/dye as you see fit, but the "LOOK AT ME" "LOOK AT ME" mentality of some folks gets quite tiring. To each his/her own.
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Maybe I am just getting old?
This. It's just a fad like all other things but I have some mom friends who are doing rainbow hair. I think its fun! And obviously the choice of the individual.
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I feel as the op does about tattoos. The majority of them to me do not look good (ironically I do have some "flash art" of tattoos displayed in my house). And even the ones that do, I think a) the cost and b) I was raised more along the view your body is a temple, versus an "amusement park ride" (Bourdain) analogy, and so to me it seems almost -disrespectful? A lack of self-love? It's a gut feeling and I fully acknowledge that i'm a fuddy duddy and not current with the times.
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Wear/dress/dye as you see fit, but the "LOOK AT ME" "LOOK AT ME" mentality of some folks gets quite tiring. To each his/her own.
Maybe they don’t care at all if you look at them?
I have a friend my age (50) who just got purple streaks in her hair. I don’t personally like it.
But I also recognize it’s none of my damn business.
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I feel as the op does about tattoos. The majority of them to me do not look good (ironically I do have some "flash art" of tattoos displayed in my house). And even the ones that do, I think a) the cost and b) I was raised more along the view your body is a temple, versus an "amusement park ride" (Bourdain) analogy, and so to me it seems almost -disrespectful? A lack of self-love? It's a gut feeling and I fully acknowledge that i'm a fuddy duddy and not current with the times.
So, this is something I've never actually understood, and I would genuinely like to. I too grew up with a "the body is a temple" philosophy, but I've never understand how decoration (which tattooing fundamentally is) profanes that temple. It doesn't harm it, unlike a lot of other much more common habits.
I know that for some religious people (Jewish and Christian), Leviticus 19:28 is relevant, and that there's debate over that verse and its exact meaning -- prohibited generally as unclean? Or prohibited when idolatrous? etc. So, I have Jewish friends who love the look of tattoos but won't get them. But unless you're religious, I can only guess (and I have guesses, but I suspect it varies by person, too). I know you said it's a gut feeling, but is there anything you could tease out?
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Maybe they don’t care at all if you look at them?
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But I also recognize it’s none of my damn business.
Anytime someone makes a deliberately unusual or out of place decision about their public appearance, they are inviting you to make it your business. Melania can't even wear a jacket without the entire country speculating about the meaning. Face tattoos send a message. Public nudity sends a message. Suits and ties send a message. Beards and flannel send a message.
Of course people will judge you based on the appearance you choose to portray, that's what appearances are for. I find it slightly disingenuous to claim that we should all be able to look however we want to look, free of judgement. I want my waiter to look clean and my mechanic to look dirty, and if they choose to subvert that expectation then they can expect me to notice, and to form opinions based on their unusual choices.
Hair color is no different. Weird colors are totally normal in some circumstances, and jarring in others, and any time someone chooses the jarring circumstance they have invited your judgment, no different than if they had chosen all black leather or a pink tutu. We all use our public appearance to send important social cues.
So yea, it's kind of everyone's business. You don't get to say anything (that's rude) but you totally get to have an opinion.
If my accountant shows up for a meeting in a gimp costume, am I supposed to pretend I don't notice? I'm all for respecting personal life choices, but it seems silly to pretend appearances don't matter.
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Maybe they don’t care at all if you look at them?
...
But I also recognize it’s none of my damn business.
Anytime someone makes a deliberately unusual or out of place decision about their public appearance, they are inviting you to make it your business. Melania can't even wear a jacket without the entire country speculating about the meaning. Face tattoos send a message. Public nudity sends a message. Suits and ties send a message. Beards and flannel send a message.
Of course people will judge you based on the appearance you choose to portray, that's what appearances are for. I find it slightly disingenuous to claim that we should all be able to look however we want to look, free of judgement. I want my waiter to look clean and my mechanic to look dirty, and if they choose to subvert that expectation then they can expect me to notice, and to form opinions based on their unusual choices.
Hair color is no different. Weird colors are totally normal in some circumstances, and jarring in others, and any time someone chooses the jarring circumstance they have invited your judgment, no different than if they had chosen all black leather or a pink tutu. We all use our public appearance to send important social cues.
So yea, it's kind of everyone's business. You don't get to say anything (that's rude) but you totally get to have an opinion.
If my accountant shows up for a meeting in a gimp costume, am I supposed to pretend I don't notice? I'm all for respecting personal life choices, but it seems silly to pretend appearances don't matter.
I'm not pretending appearances don't matter.
That's why I put in the part that you took out: That my friend recently colored her hair with purple streaks, and I don't personally like it.
I'm saying someone else's choices are their choices. Not mine.
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That's why I put in the part that you took out: That my friend recently colored her hair with purple streaks, and I don't personally like it.
I'm saying someone else's choices are their choices. Not mine.
I didn't so much mean it as a response to your post specifically. This whole thread has had a pretty consistent "you're not allowed to notice looks" theme to it.
I agree that we all get to color our hair any color we like, for any reason we like. I just think it's important to remember that other people will observe your choices and form their own opinions, and that's okay too. Appearances do matter, and we don't get to modify them however we like without accepting the consequences of doing so.
If you work in a place that accepts pink hair, great. But if you work in a place that doesn't, maybe don't be surprised if you get fired (or passed over for promotion) after you flaunt the boss's cultural expectations.
For example, I would expect to damage my career and my professional reputation if I showed up with pink hair. I raised this point initially because I know that as a group, women in professional settings sometimes struggle to have their contributions and abilities appropriately recognized and valued. If it's only women who are dying their hair pink, this activity might contribute to this specific form of discrimination, and I totally understand why. It would be like if women suddenly found it fashionable to show up late and leave early, or microwave fish in the office break room. You can't say "it's totally fine it's my decision"and then do something that pisses off your co-workers.
So my tip for everyone: don't dye your hair a weird color if you think there is any chance a man would be viewed negatively for doing so at your workplace. Gender equality cuts both ways, and you may be sinking your own ship.
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That's why I put in the part that you took out: That my friend recently colored her hair with purple streaks, and I don't personally like it.
I'm saying someone else's choices are their choices. Not mine.
I didn't so much mean it as a response to your post specifically. This whole thread has had a pretty consistent "you're not allowed to notice looks" theme to it.
I agree that we all get to color our hair any color we like, for any reason we like. I just think it's important to remember that other people will observe your choices and form their own opinions, and that's okay too. Appearances do matter, and we don't get to modify them however we like without accepting the consequences of doing so.
If you work in a place that accepts pink hair, great. But if you work in a place that doesn't, maybe don't be surprised if you get fired (or passed over for promotion) after you flaunt the boss's cultural expectations.
For example, I would expect to damage my career and my professional reputation if I showed up with pink hair. I raised this point initially because I know that as a group, women in professional settings sometimes struggle to have their contributions and abilities appropriately recognized and valued. If it's only women who are dying their hair pink, this activity might contribute to this specific form of discrimination, and I totally understand why. It would be like if women suddenly found it fashionable to show up late and leave early, or microwave fish in the office break room. You can't say "it's totally fine it's my decision"and then do something that pisses off your co-workers.
So my tip for everyone: don't dye your hair a weird color if you think there is any chance a man would be viewed negatively for doing so at your workplace. Gender equality cuts both ways, and you may be sinking your own ship.
I mean, the thing is: of course we notice things. That's fine. It's obvious. It's human.
But the... hubris... of feeling like one needs to clutch one's man-pearls and cluck, "You know, someone might actually judge you for that!"
As if women don't know that. As if women aren't already essentially saying "fuck that noise" by making the choice.
I assure you. Women know that men view them negatively for doing things that stray at all outside the norm. We know that everyone judges them negatively, for doing just about anything.
We do not need you to tell us that.
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Maybe they don’t care at all if you look at them?
...
But I also recognize it’s none of my damn business.
Anytime someone makes a deliberately unusual or out of place decision about their public appearance, they are inviting you to make it your business. Melania can't even wear a jacket without the entire country speculating about the meaning
.
Melania is a public figure, who was on a official trip. Wearing a very literal message.
I think that's a bit different than pink hair.
I would hazard to guess most people with colored hair aren't making a look at me statement. The statement is probably "I like this color". My pink hair is in NO way your business, and it being such is not me inviting you to make it about your business. It is MY business. No one else's. Just like my not wearing makeup isn't your business, my swimsuit choice isn't your business, my car isn't your business, my dinner isn't your business, my clothes aren't your business. Mind your own damn business and stop judging strangers for innocuous choices.
Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
My hair color could be my work's business, if they instituted a dress code. Currently it is allowed. I would dye it if it wasn't.
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Women truly can't win.
I really don't think this is about gender. Everyone who struggles in a professional workplace deals with image expectations. Even in the absence of a specific dress code, the way you groom and dress yourself sends a message about your professionalism to your peers, and your bosses. Regardless of your gender.
If anything, women are afforded way MORE freedom to change their image at work than are men. How many dudes can get away with dyed pink hair, yet here we have a whole thread full of women who do it and want zero repercussions.
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Maybe they don’t care at all if you look at them?
...
But I also recognize it’s none of my damn business.
Anytime someone makes a deliberately unusual or out of place decision about their public appearance, they are inviting you to make it your business. Melania can't even wear a jacket without the entire country speculating about the meaning
.
Melania is a public figure, who was on a official trip. Wearing a very literal message.
I think that's a bit different than pink hair.
I would hazard to guess most people with colored hair aren't making a look at me statement. The statement is probably "I like this color". My pink hair is in NO way your business, and it being such is not me inviting you to make it about your business. It is MY business. No one else's. Just like my not wearing makeup isn't your business, my swimsuit choice isn't your business, my car isn't your business, my dinner isn't your business, my clothes aren't your business. Mind your own damn business and stop judging strangers for innocuous choices.
Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
My hair color could be my work's business, if they instituted a dress code. Currently it is allowed. I would dye it if it wasn't.
You, nor anybody else on this Earth, gets to tell me when, where, if, and how, I can form an opinion. Sorry. That's not how this works.
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I feel as the op does about tattoos. The majority of them to me do not look good (ironically I do have some "flash art" of tattoos displayed in my house). And even the ones that do, I think a) the cost and b) I was raised more along the view your body is a temple, versus an "amusement park ride" (Bourdain) analogy, and so to me it seems almost -disrespectful? A lack of self-love? It's a gut feeling and I fully acknowledge that i'm a fuddy duddy and not current with the times.
The current times are what they are, current. Some of it is great, some of it we'll look back at in horror, maybe.
And I'm judging all of you dyed-haired tattoed weirdos. Don't worry though, I judge everyone, you're not special.
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I'll try to answer the question about tattoos. Possibly it does have to do with upbringing. Though im not a churchgoer, i was raised Greek Orthodox, where heck i wasn't supposed to even wear makeup let alone anything as extreme as a tattoo (tho the grown up women def wore makep, but anyone who dyed their hair blonde; it was disapproved of). My dad's Greek and talked about ancient Greece and how the human body is a temple and beautiful on it's own, natural. It's not a billboard. I think my negative views were reinforced because my older brother was a delinquent and punk rocker and gave himself a homemade tattoo. He admitted at the time he had a lot of self-hating. It's just not for me. Heck up until the last 5? Years i never dyed my hair or even plucked my brows. I just like being natural.
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We don't really need to complain about how other people dress and live their lives -
Yes. Yes, we do. I'm judging you. And you over there, too.
Man buns.
Also, a hate from my industry of fitness: trainer boys, have a shave for god's sake. There's manly stubble and then there's just scruffy.
I agree on crocs. I dated a woman once who commented, "slip-on shoes are the mark of a lazy man." As the years go on I realise how right she was.
I know it's fashionable to be inclusive but I'm trying to bring my children up better than that.
Yes, I'm judging you.
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I want my waiter to look clean and my mechanic to look dirty, and if they choose to subvert that expectation then they can expect me to notice, and to form opinions based on their unusual choices.
There was a laundry detergent advert on tv where the wife uses the detergent and her husband's overalls are always spotlessly clean and he keeps getting fired from his jobs and can't figure out why.
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We don't really need to complain about how other people dress and live their lives -
Yes. Yes, we do. I'm judging you. And you over there, too.
Man buns.
Also, a hate from my industry of fitness: trainer boys, have a shave for god's sake. There's manly stubble and then there's just scruffy.
I agree on crocs. I dated a woman once who commented, "slip-on shoes are the mark of a lazy man." As the years go on I realise how right she was.
I know it's fashionable to be inclusive but I'm trying to bring my children up better than that.
Yes, I'm judging you.
This makes me feel better that I'm not the only person in the world who has a dislike of Crocs. Granted they now make ones that don't look like plastic bed slippers or toddler shoes. But they make me feel we are getting 1 step closer to some dystopian world of pple wearing disposable plastic clothes
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Tattoos are really a non-issue for me. Have them, don't have them, I don't give a fuck. I could see myself getting a tattoo but I find it a bit too expensive at the moment for just having someone make a picture on my skin and this is really not a thing to be to cheap about, you often get what you pay for in this world. So if I make more money or if I can find a true good deal for a tattoo I might get one but I am not crying about the fact I don't have one now. I don't think face-tattoos are a smart thing because they are hard to cover up if you get sick of them but everyone gets to decide what to do with their body.
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I have no issue with funky hair colors because one can always dye hair back to its original or a "normal" color. Tattoos, however, are as a pundit once put it, "permanent reminders of temporary whims." And sorry, young hardbodies, when you get old they're going to look awful, there's no avoiding it.
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It seems the commonness of dyed hair (along with level of comfort with others having dyed hair) is very contextual. It's more common/normalized in creative, tech, and queer communities - being a part of such communities, or having friends within those communities, means you probably view having colored hair as a more normal behavior. If you're from a more rural area, or in a particularly religious community, etc., then it's going to be perceived as more aberrant. I suspect that over time it's going to become more and more normalized.
I don't understand the judgement against older women with dyed hair in interesting colors, especially considering how so many women dye their hair once it starts graying anyhow. Personally I love colorful hair, and don't see it as that different than piercing one's ears or wearing bright nail polish.
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Women judge women just as much or more as men judge women. At least, I hear women judging women more than I hear men do it.
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Now I am one of those people with strange hair colors, I finally went ahead and used my pink dye and I have a pinkish tint in my formerly blond highlights. I like it but next time I might go for blue instead, I think it is more my color. It will be interesting to see what MIL says when we get there, I expect an strange comment that is not technically an insult but certainly meant as one.
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Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
Agreed. Re-reading the OP's post he said he especially hates it on older women. Ageism for women is a huge issue. So much of one's social, work etc capital is based upon their looks and youthfulness. So a younger woman (arguably more attractive by male standards) does it and it's tolerable. An older woman does it, perhaps to look younger and it's especially gross according to the OP. So should older women just go away so men don't have to view and be disgusted by their waning attractiveness?
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Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
Agreed. Re-reading the OP's post he said he especially hates it on older women. Ageism for women is a huge issue. So much of one's social, work etc capital is based upon their looks and youthfulness. So a younger woman (arguably more attractive by male standards) does it and it's tolerable. An older woman does it, perhaps to look younger and it's especially gross according to the OP. So should older women just go away so men don't have to view and be disgusted by their waning attractiveness?
I probably shouldn't even bother because this has been addressed pretty thoroughly, but it's not just men who judge women. Also, In the case of OP (who I assume is a man) it's not necessarily a judgment of attractiveness. I'm not physically attracted to males or a large portion of the female population, but I still have opinions about how they look. It could be a matter of looking tough, looking intelligent, looking classy, or even looking like you don't care too much about the way you look. Different people are going to prefer different things.
I would imagine OP wouldn't walk up to someone in public and tell them he doesn't like their hair, that's incredibly rude. That's why you do it on an anonymous forum, and hell, he even acknowledged that he's being a crotchety old man. Older people tend to dislike change. Colorful hair being normalized is change for OP.
One more assumption about OP, (I have to assume because he disappeared, never to be heard from again :) he would be way more disturbed by the merman pictures posted earlier than any woman with colored hair.
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Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
Agreed. Re-reading the OP's post he said he especially hates it on older women. Ageism for women is a huge issue. So much of one's social, work etc capital is based upon their looks and youthfulness. So a younger woman (arguably more attractive by male standards) does it and it's tolerable. An older woman does it, perhaps to look younger and it's especially gross according to the OP. So should older women just go away so men don't have to view and be disgusted by their waning attractiveness?
This isn't just a female problem. You think older men in the workplace can get away with pink hair and a new eyebrow piercing?
Social expectations of professional appearance, particularly at the level of corporate management and above, are hugely constrictive. For everyone. No need to blame men in particular, they are just as victimized as anyone else.
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Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
Agreed. Re-reading the OP's post he said he especially hates it on older women. Ageism for women is a huge issue. So much of one's social, work etc capital is based upon their looks and youthfulness. So a younger woman (arguably more attractive by male standards) does it and it's tolerable. An older woman does it, perhaps to look younger and it's especially gross according to the OP. So should older women just go away so men don't have to view and be disgusted by their waning attractiveness?
I think we're supposed to accept and cultivate invisibility past a certain age. So as not to offend the eye.
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Women truly can't win. They don't dye their hair, they are lazy and don't care about their appearance (inviting judgement by not doing anything), they dye their hair blonde, they are judged for being vain, they dye it blue or pink, they are judged for being unnatural. What the fuck should women do to get men to stop judging them? Women's decisions are not all about men's opinions.
Agreed. Re-reading the OP's post he said he especially hates it on older women. Ageism for women is a huge issue. So much of one's social, work etc capital is based upon their looks and youthfulness. So a younger woman (arguably more attractive by male standards) does it and it's tolerable. An older woman does it, perhaps to look younger and it's especially gross according to the OP. So should older women just go away so men don't have to view and be disgusted by their waning attractiveness?
This isn't just a female problem. You think older men in the workplace can get away with pink hair and a new eyebrow piercing?
Social expectations of professional appearance, particularly at the level of corporate management and above, are hugely constrictive. For everyone. No need to blame men in particular, they are just as victimized as anyone else.
Ah, but that wasn’t what the OP was about, was it? It was specifically about how awful women and girls look when they dye their hair crazy colors, and how baffling it is that they don’t know better than to do such a thing. And whether they do it because maybe they’re lesbians.
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Women judge women just as much or more as men judge women. At least, I hear women judging women more than I hear men do it.
This is true. Generalising here, women don't dress up to impress a bloke. They do it for the inevitable instagram comments from their friends on the pics of the night out.
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Ah, but that wasn’t what the OP was about, was it? It was specifically about how awful women and girls look when they dye their hair crazy colors, and how baffling it is that they don’t know better than to do such a thing.
Right, and I was totally on board with the responses until we started getting all of this man-hate. You can defend a person's fashion choices without making this about the patriarchy.
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Ah, but that wasn’t what the OP was about, was it? It was specifically about how awful women and girls look when they dye their hair crazy colors, and how baffling it is that they don’t know better than to do such a thing.
Right, and I was totally on board with the responses until we started getting all of this man-hate. You can defend a person's fashion choices without making this about the patriarchy.
M-hm. And point taken... except that the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
I have no idea how that could have devolved into a discussion of patriarchy. /s
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I see this all over. Does it have some hidden meaning? Is it LGB related? Feminism?
Personally I think it looks hideous, especially on an older woman. Young girls get a pass because they do weird stuff naturally. Nose rings, tattoos, NOOOooo!
Maybe I am just getting old? How come the music today sucks compared to the 70s, 80s and even the 90s? Now get off the lawn!
I just assume they are cam girls.
MOD EDIT: Read the forum rules, please.
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the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
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the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
#notallmen
Feel better now?
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#notallmen
Feel better now?
Not really, no.
But this is clearly the wrong thread for these discussions.
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I think we're supposed to accept and cultivate invisibility past a certain age. So as not to offend the eye.
Story time: hiding lady parts after a certain age!
When I was a young lad in the 90s and early 00s, it was commonplace in my home country for women to sunbathe at the beach with their breasts hanging out. And by common, I mean easily 20-50% of women on the beach were topless at any given time. Young women, mothers, grandmothers, boobies in all shapes, sizes, and degrees of youth and attractiveness. The whole thing is in retrospect super weird for teenage boys discovering their hormones, but I digress.
And then, it just gradually but unmistakably went away. The only women still doing this today tend to be old ladies who are set in their ways and still have that 70s hippie fire.
So what happened there? The fight towards equality didn't go backwards over there, if anything it seems to be raging with even more passion than I remember. All indicators are on the upswing, so I don't think Sometimes, norms just change for no clear reason.
Also, #notallmen is incredibly offensive to those of us above median height.
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Ah, but that wasn’t what the OP was about, was it? It was specifically about how awful women and girls look when they dye their hair crazy colors, and how baffling it is that they don’t know better than to do such a thing.
Right, and I was totally on board with the responses until we started getting all of this man-hate. You can defend a person's fashion choices without making this about the patriarchy.
M-hm. And point taken... except that the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
I have no idea how that could have devolved into a discussion of patriarchy. /s
Ok, but ask yourself - when a crotchety old man makes a comment like this do you really think he meant "I don't like it when women dye their hair unusual colors, but I'm perfectly ok with it when men do the same"?
Seems unlikely. I would assume that what he's really saying is "I don't like it when anyone dyes their hair unusual colors".
It's just that he's really only seen this trend with women, so that's why he asked the question the way he did. I for one can only think of two men I've seen with unusual hair colors over the last few years. Women on the other hand, I see this on a weekly basis. I barely notice it on women but if I see a guy with blue hair, that's gonna land in the memory bank. And it's not like that's on purpose, it just is.
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#allfeministsmatter
the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
#notallmen
Feel better now?
Sent from my H1623 using Tapatalk
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And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
Man, there's a lot of deep pain and old "barrages of bile" that have been felt for a lot of different reasons. Let's not be part-time volunteers complaining about workload. I've been called a "white knight" sarcastically - it's disappointing. Your point is accurate. But! The reactions you got are from a place of fear that once again, the underweighted is being underweighted. You can't convey that you understand someone's fear, as they dangle from the edge of a roof, if you begin a lecture on ladder safety before help arrives. The person hanging is just not going to believe you get the gravity of the situation. Pun intended.
This is obviously an excellent time to plug Hannah Gadsby's powerful Nanette, which is now on Nanetteflix.
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I don't mind different hair colors, some color jobs look great, others will look not so great, it just depends.
For me, I save a lot of money by not getting into hair color or body modifications or fashion and manicures and makeup and whatnot. I am very, very low maintenance and going natural saves a ton of money.
This so much!!
On the 4th I was at the usual family gathering, my 3 sis's were comparing the length of time spent at the stylists, the costs, what they all had done. They asked me what color I used on mine, then couldn't believe it was natural. Cut it myself, too. Salon costs $0 for me. Then it went on to pedicure's.. again, $0 for me, I do my own. Then on to makeup. I do use some, but sparingly and very little, so it lasts me forever. Gees. the amount of money they all use, argh!!! Not just the money, the time invested to get the looks they want at the salon, and daily doing themselves up.. who wants that?
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I don't mind different hair colors, some color jobs look great, others will look not so great, it just depends.
For me, I save a lot of money by not getting into hair color or body modifications or fashion and manicures and makeup and whatnot. I am very, very low maintenance and going natural saves a ton of money.
This so much!!
On the 4th I was at the usual family gathering, my 3 sis's were comparing the length of time spent at the stylists, the costs, what they all had done. They asked me what color I used on mine, then couldn't believe it was natural. Cut it myself, too. Salon costs $0 for me. Then it went on to pedicure's.. again, $0 for me, I do my own. Then on to makeup. I do use some, but sparingly and very little, so it lasts me forever. Gees. the amount of money they all use, argh!!! Not just the money, the time invested to get the looks they want at the salon, and daily doing themselves up.. who wants that?
I don't get that either. Right now I have short hair and I choose to go to the hair dresser from time to time but I have the type of style that you can use a trimmer to fix the sides and make it last at least twice as long. I also chose to do high lights this spring and I will do them once more this fall before I either let them grow out or start doing them on my own (I have done so successfully in the past but I do prefer them done by a pro). This is unusually spendy being me. I usually have a very easy maintenance hair cut that I can either do twice a year at a salon or cut it myself. I wear no make up. I have never had a pedicure (I would do it if someone paid or I found one at a very reduced price). I have once had acrylic nails but found them too fragile and too expensive. I have once had a facial (I really liked this and I am actually thinking of cutting my clothes budget down to allow myself to have 2-3 a year).
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Ok, but ask yourself - when a crotchety old man makes a comment like this do you really think he meant "I don't like it when women dye their hair unusual colors, but I'm perfectly ok with it when men do the same"?
Seems unlikely. I would assume that what he's really saying is "I don't like it when anyone dyes their hair unusual colors".
It's just that he's really only seen this trend with women, so that's why he asked the question the way he did. I for one can only think of two men I've seen with unusual hair colors over the last few years. Women on the other hand, I see this on a weekly basis. I barely notice it on women but if I see a guy with blue hair, that's gonna land in the memory bank. And it's not like that's on purpose, it just is.
Don't even get me started on merman, grrr.
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the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
It's been my experience that even men who self-identify as feminists have everyday habits of thought and behavior that uphold the patriarchy ... including feeling like they are having a "near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help" and not getting at all that this pales in comparison to the systemic and inescapable sexist bullshit that's spewed upon women since the day we were born.
You've got to know your audience, sol. Coming into the middle of a thread of women defending themselves against a -- yes, very sexist -- statement and talking about how it hurts your feelings to not be properly appreciated (i.e., making it about you) is not going to be well received.
Making it all about you is an artifact of privilege. Much as it would be if I waded into a thread of black folks sharing their stories of microaggressions and started in on "but but but not all of us are like that! You should be nicer to your allies!" would be a classic example of clueless liberal racism.
When it's not about you, don't make it about you. The end.
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the whole point of the first post, and thus the thread, was disapproving clucking by a man about how some women aren’t conforming to his standards, and then speculating on their sexuality as a result of their not being physically pleasing to him.
And that's gross, but you don't help improve things by insulting your allies.
The hardest thing about being a male feminist is the near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help, in addition to the people you're fighting against. I know that it feels good to vent your anger, but it's deliberately hurtful. Some of the comments we've seen here only further divide people.
It's been my experience that even men who self-identify as feminists have everyday habits of thought and behavior that uphold the patriarchy ... including feeling like they are having a "near constant barrage of bile spewed upon you by the same people you're trying to help" and not getting at all that this pales in comparison to the systemic and inescapable sexist bullshit that's spewed upon women since the day we were born.
You've got to know your audience, sol. Coming into the middle of a thread of women defending themselves against a -- yes, very sexist -- statement and talking about how it hurts your feelings to not be properly appreciated (i.e., making it about you) is not going to be well received.
Making it all about you is an artifact of privilege. Much as it would be if I waded into a thread of black folks sharing their stories of microaggressions and started in on "but but but not all of us are like that! You should be nicer to your allies!" would be a classic example of clueless liberal racism.
When it's not about you, don't make it about you. The end.
I came back to say this in some form but you did it so eloquently. Thanks!
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It's been my experience that even men who self-identify as feminists have everyday habits of thought and behavior that uphold the patriarchy ...
I agree with Madgeylou above, and just want to add that even women who self-identify as feminists can have everyday habits of thought and behaviour that uphold the patriarchy and other forms of systemic privilege which we may or may not gain advantages from which we need to recognize and work on.
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It's been my experience that even men who self-identify as feminists have everyday habits of thought and behavior that uphold the patriarchy ...
I agree with Madgeylou above, and just want to add that even women who self-identify as feminists can have everyday habits of thought and behaviour that uphold the patriarchy and other forms of systemic privilege which we may or may not gain advantages from which we need to recognize and work on.
So true! At the same time ... I am not at all interested in a man telling me about internalized misogyny (just as I'm sure a black person is not interested in white people talking to them about how they can get over their internalized racism, or a person in a wheelchair is not interested in an able-bodied person trying to educate them on ablism).
I call that privilege-splaining, and it is never a good look.
Also @fuzzy math thanks!
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I love colored hair. And short hair. Basically anything non-traditional, I guess...I find it exceptionally attractive. Do a Google image search for Halsey or P!nk -- just...I don't have words. I love that look so much.
Short hair is especially pleasing to me because none of it is long enough to eclipse any part of a woman's profile.
The flappers' wavy, short hair is my favorite.
The only style I don't like is VERY long hair.
Whenever I see it "witch" comes to mind.
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So true! At the same time ... I am not at all interested in a man telling me about internalized misogyny (just as I'm sure a black person is not interested in white people talking to them about how they can get over their internalized racism, or a person in a wheelchair is not interested in an able-bodied person trying to educate them on ablism).
I call that privilege-splaining, and it is never a good look.
Yes. On a similar topic, a family friend from my childhood was closely associated with John Howard Griffin, and it has been very interesting for me as an adult to read reactions to his book & story with a more nuanced understanding.
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So true! At the same time ... I am not at all interested in a man telling me about internalized misogyny (just as I'm sure a black person is not interested in white people talking to them about how they can get over their internalized racism, or a person in a wheelchair is not interested in an able-bodied person trying to educate them on ablism).
I call that privilege-splaining, and it is never a good look.
Yes. On a similar topic, a family friend from my childhood was closely associated with John Howard Griffin, and it has been very interesting for me as an adult to read reactions to his book & story with a more nuanced understanding.
Interesting! I've never read Black Like Me but I guess 1961 was a very different world. Today, it seems best to let people of various disenfranchised groups speak for themselves and offer criticism within their own context.
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Making it all about you is an artifact of privilege. Much as it would be if I waded into a thread of black folks sharing their stories of microaggressions and started in on "but but but not all of us are like that! You should be nicer to your allies!" would be a classic example of clueless liberal racism.
When it's not about you, don't make it about you. The end.
This is all very well and true, but the following things still suck:
1. Man buns. If a man has long hair, he should wear it proudly, like Fabio.
2. The shaven back and sides that go with the man bun, but sometimes appear alone. It's all very Hitler Youth. The Germans lost, get over it.
3. Crocs. My old girlfriend was right, slip-on shoes are the mark of a lazy man. The holes are where your dignity leaks out.
4. Hipster beards. By all means beard away, but trim it neatly.
5. Goatees on old guys. Only permissable if you are an evil villain.
6. Men with neither arse nor belt. Ideally you should squat and develop an arse, but if prevented from squatting by some congenital deformity like laziness, at least wear a belt. Arse cleavage is not attractive like breast cleavage is, sorry.
7. T-shirts on a date. T-shirts are for sleeping and exercise. The rest of the time a collar is necessary.
Next to these fashion abominations, a woman with green hair is inoffensive.
It's not about me, it's about men with no taste and the unfortunate women and men who date them and have to put up with these horrors and pretend that such a man is still desirable.
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Making it all about you is an artifact of privilege. Much as it would be if I waded into a thread of black folks sharing their stories of microaggressions and started in on "but but but not all of us are like that! You should be nicer to your allies!" would be a classic example of clueless liberal racism.
When it's not about you, don't make it about you. The end.
This is all very well and true, but the following things still suck:
1. Man buns. If a man has long hair, he should wear it proudly, like Fabio.
2. The shaven back and sides that go with the man bun, but sometimes appear alone. It's all very Hitler Youth. The Germans lost, get over it.
3. Crocs. My old girlfriend was right, slip-on shoes are the mark of a lazy man. The holes are where your dignity leaks out.
4. Hipster beards. By all means beard away, but trim it neatly.
5. Goatees on old guys. Only permissable if you are an evil villain.
6. Men with neither arse nor belt. Ideally you should squat and develop an arse, but if prevented from squatting by some congenital deformity like laziness, at least wear a belt. Arse cleavage is not attractive like breast cleavage is, sorry.
7. T-shirts on a date. T-shirts are for sleeping and exercise. The rest of the time a collar is necessary.
Next to these fashion abominations, a woman with green hair is inoffensive.
It's not about me, it's about men with no taste and the unfortunate women and men who date them and have to put up with these horrors and pretend that such a man is still desirable.
There's a perfectly legitimate exception to the number seven rule though:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/612HFdmD%2BVL._SY355_.jpg)
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Men? Just no. Go blond, go jet black, or go home. And manbuns can be added to that list as well. Next thing you're going to tell me dudes want pigtails. (vomit)
Of course, people can do what they want, but there are some things that are just bad taste and deserve to be mocked.
I am probably going to do a colored section of my hair at some point and I really don't give two shits if you think I deserve to be mocked or not.
If you get your kicks out of mocking other people's choices, you may want to reprioritize your life.
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Of course, people can do what they want, but there are some things that are just bad taste and deserve to be mocked.
Women - you've got to look at the whole package. Women who do it as part of an overall lifestyle appearance, it can look very attractive.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/20/93/012093633f49e8927079f0f29e446342.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMu_IxWUYAAMHZH.jpg)
Women who do it just to dye their hair and otherwise dress like old people with no fashion sense? Just no. This is like the female version of buying a giant SUV at 35.
(https://www.warren-wilson.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/6X4A0248-1200x0-c-default.jpg)
It's all in the execution.
Men? Just no. Go blond, go jet black, or go home. And manbuns can be added to that list as well. Next thing you're going to tell me dudes want pigtails. (vomit)
Of course, people can do what they want, but there are some things that are just bad taste and deserve to be mocked.
In other words: if they're sexy, it's fine.
No fat chicks, though.
Good lord.
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Of course, people can do what they want, but there are some things that are just bad taste and deserve to be mocked.
Women - you've got to look at the whole package. Women who do it as part of an overall lifestyle appearance, it can look very attractive.
Huh. Funny how it's ok from your perspective if the person is a certain size and willing to put in a lot of effort into presentation. And interesting that attractiveness to your gaze is the way we can tell whether something we do is acceptable.
In other news, those slide on sandals are gross unless you've had a pedicure (this _especially_ counts for guys), and even then, I'd prefer not to see your toes unless you have a medical reason to show them.
ETA: oh, I missed the gender norms policing. Guys, pigtails are tough to pull off after you're twelve, but if you want to go for it, live your life.
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Kinda have to agree with Kris on this one. Three pictures of women with dyed hair and matching accessories. One of them weighs more than the other two. She is unacceptable. Jesus.
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ETA: oh, I missed the gender norms policing. Guys, pigtails are tough to pull off after you're twelve, but if you want to go for it, live your life.
I know a guy with long pigtails. He's honestly pretty badass! It's nice to live in a community where people don't feel the need to respect pointless uberconservative social norms. :-)
I'm so amazed at the amount of thought and energy people put into judging the hair or cloth other people choose to have on their bodies. The world we live in is so interesting and full of worthwhile things to do.
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Hey dudes, especially @Raymond Reddington -- FYI -- your opinions on how random women look are not important! No one cares! Bye!
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I generally find its a good idea not to judge books by their covers.
I mean I wouldn't want to find out what anyone thought of my appearance.. I might put a bag over my head if I did..:)
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I would not have expected a cheekily written question wondering if there was a cultural message behind a recently observed fashion trend would us lead here, even with the addition of the negative personal opinion of the trend. It's really not an unreasonable guess that it could possibly indicate support of LGBTQ or feminist causes, is it?
Also while we probably can assume jim555 is a man there's nothing in the original post that could not have been plausibly written by a woman. Would that change anything?
Can anyone honestly deny that fashion choices often, but not always, involve some kind of cultural signaling (primarily in group/out group)? Or that people are constantly judging and inferring things from other people's choices, even if they are actively giving benefits of the doubt? And that a perfectly appropriate response to someone expressing a half baked superficial judgement is an eye roll and a "whatever..."?
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...
In other words: if they're sexy, it's fine.
No fat chicks, though.
Good lord.
Yep, no defending that one.
If anything I would judge the first one the harshest. I mean, clearly she's dressed up for a photo shoot but she's basically wearing a costume. That wouldn't be appropriate for most work places. Probably over priced too.
The last one is just a person. In normal clothes. With colored hair. ???
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So the first image is of a professional model (https://www.deviantart.com/saphirnoir), the second image is a person with a blog dedicated to fashion/style (https://halsey--17.tumblr.com/), and the 3rd is a photograph of someone from a college website (https://www.warren-wilson.edu/student-life/warren-wilson-style/).
Note: The first profile indicates "Please do not use my pictures without my permission", so it might be a good idea to remove the image from this post. Not sure about the second, but the third is likely copyrighted by the college, so there may also be legal issues with posting it on here as well.
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I would not have expected a cheekily written question wondering if there was a cultural message behind a recently observed fashion trend would us lead here, even with the addition of the negative personal opinion of the trend. It's really not an unreasonable guess that it could possibly indicate support of LGBTQ or feminist causes, is it?
Also while we probably can assume jim555 is a man there's nothing in the original post that could not have been plausibly written by a woman. Would that change anything?
Can anyone honestly deny that fashion choices often, but not always, involve some kind of cultural signaling (primarily in group/out group)? Or that people are constantly judging and inferring things from other people's choices, even if they are actively giving benefits of the doubt? And that a perfectly appropriate response to someone expressing a half baked superficial judgement is an eye roll and a "whatever..."?
Such an even handed and thoughtful response such as this will not be tolerated in this thread. My god man, don't you know, it's always about the Patriarchy?
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Anytime someone makes a deliberately unusual or out of place decision about their public appearance, they are inviting you to make it your business. Melania can't even wear a jacket without the entire country speculating about the meaning. Face tattoos send a message. Public nudity sends a message. Suits and ties send a message. Beards and flannel send a message.
Of course people will judge you based on the appearance you choose to portray, that's what appearances are for. I find it slightly disingenuous to claim that we should all be able to look however we want to look, free of judgement. I want my waiter to look clean and my mechanic to look dirty, and if they choose to subvert that expectation then they can expect me to notice, and to form opinions based on their unusual choices.
Hair color is no different. Weird colors are totally normal in some circumstances, and jarring in others, and any time someone chooses the jarring circumstance they have invited your judgment, no different than if they had chosen all black leather or a pink tutu. We all use our public appearance to send important social cues.
So yea, it's kind of everyone's business. You don't get to say anything (that's rude) but you totally get to have an opinion.
If my accountant shows up for a meeting in a gimp costume, am I supposed to pretend I don't notice? I'm all for respecting personal life choices, but it seems silly to pretend appearances don't matter.
Pretty much this is what I was trying to say. As regarding the comment about someone being plus sized, we have the right to judge them for that too. Many of us work very hard at fitness and what we eat so as to specifically not be obese. Among Mustachians, someone who manages money extremely stupidly would be frowned on, as that is a negative behavior, and if such a person were to seek validation for their poor life choices, I would be well within my right to withhold approval. Well, being overweight carries increased risks of heart disease, diabetes, and all other sorts of health risks and it is fair to consider such unattractive. Furthermore, this is a risk factor that is completely controllable by the person as the steward of their own body, and yet we don't charge obese people more for health insurance even though we do charge young people more for car insurance, or people who live in flood planes have to buy flood insurance because regular homeowners' insurance won't cover flood damage.
People can do what they want, but there are certain judgments that people will make when they do. These are judgments that are sometimes hard coded into us from evolution, and other times bcome a part of us subconsciously as we experience the world and learn a set of judgments and patterns that help us navigate our world as adults.
My belief is that some women can pull off the look, and others can't. My belief is that guys can't. The women that are able to pull it off, it's because it's part of an overall appearance. The photos I posted (removed, due to legit comments about their sharing on the internet) showed a cyberpunk girl whose red hair fits into her overall appearance. The second showed a girl going for a chic grungy style of fashion with blue hair, and the third showed an otherwise normal college kid who decided to make a "radical fashion statement" by dying their hair but continues to dress generally conservatively.
In my experience, people who simply change their hair color and it's not part of an overall lifestyle are just seeking to break from a dull reality and otherwise generate attention for their "lifestyle change." There is no shortage of people out there willing to notice the hair color, make conversation, and because people tend to be non-confrontational in public, offer a compliment on the style (even though they'll later tell you they think it looks bad when the person isn't around). This validation is no different than people who post positive statuses on social media seeking validation. It reeks in many ways of desperation, in my opinion.
And it's not just picking on hair color. Men do this stuff too. Investment bankers suddenly showing up with leather jackets or wearing camo at places where this is not appropriate. Spending a bunch of money on fancy sunglasses, etc. If appearances truly aren't that important, and I'm being JudgyMcJudgyPants by saying that appearances signal certain things to me, then why do the same people who criticize me for judging a person's BMI (the reduction of which actually is statistically correlated with lower healthcare usage and therefore lower costs) advocate for squandering wealth in the pursuit of changing or perfecting appearances through dyed hair, man buns, etc.?
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Can anyone honestly deny that fashion choices often, but not always, involve some kind of cultural signaling (primarily in group/out group)? Or that people are constantly judging and inferring things from other people's choices, even if they are actively giving benefits of the doubt? And that a perfectly appropriate response to someone expressing a half baked superficial judgement is an eye roll and a "whatever..."?
A perfectly appropriate response would be an eye roll. Or a perfectly appropriate response is to tell the person to keep their opinions to themselves. When one group is disproportionately the subject of such comments and judgements then it is reasonable to point out that this is a systemic thing.
And if someone poked you on the arm once a day for years after you tried ignoring it and then asked them to stop. What would you say about the person doing the poking? How about if it was a different person each day? And that person says that they only did it that once why are you not just letting it go? Even after you point out that it happens all the time?
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Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
Hahaha! I am blonde and am planning a narrow pink streak on the right side of my face as a way to celebrate surviving breast cancer for 6 years now! I will do it just before October (Breast Cancer Awareness month).
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I think it’s incredibly difficult to judge other people, especially the less you know about them. Like, say you see an overweight person. Sure, you could assume they eat donuts all day and never exercise. But you don’t know their story - maybe they’re a huge health nut who used to be 100 lbs heavier, maybe they’ve been suffering from crippling depression which has had the side effect of severe weight gain, maybe years of yo-yo dieting has destroyed their metabolism. Unless you're their doctor, what value does your likely uninformed opinion really offer? Same with hair color - sure, if you know a young person about to enter the working world and have a close enough relationship with them that they’d listen to you, some advice that they might want to forego the blue hair at their new job might be helpful. But otherwise, why worry about it?
I’m unsure what value really comes out of judging other people, other than as a means to make yourself feel better than them. I think it is a natural human habit to judge others, but I think it’s a unhealthy habit that ultimately leads to a lack of understanding and division between ourselves and other people, and thus it’s a habit worth trying to overcome. Why waste mental energy thinking negative things about other people who you have no power to change?
Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
Hahaha! I am blonde and am planning a narrow pink streak on the right side of my face as a way to celebrate surviving breast cancer for 6 years now! I will do it just before October (Breast Cancer Awareness month).
What a great way to celebrate, very cool!
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You wear crocs, don't you, Raymond? Or worse: socks and sandals.
I'm judging you.
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You wear crocs, don't you, Raymond? Or worse: socks and sandals.
I'm judging you.
HA! That's gotta be a first time for being accused of either of those things.
re: socks and sandals...Birkensocks? That's up there in the list of fashion faux pas.
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this comic reminded me of this thread
https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36763042_1953496254673998_7524173607509950464_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=7c0cb7062436892f3a21d62222a7b7ad&oe=5BD32972
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I’m unsure what value really comes out of judging other people, other than as a means to make yourself feel better than them. I think it is a natural human habit to judge others, but I think it’s a unhealthy habit that ultimately leads to a lack of understanding and division between ourselves and other people, and thus it’s a habit worth trying to overcome. Why waste mental energy thinking negative things about other people who you have no power to change?
+1. Very well said ptobeast. I used to live constantly judging people (in my head) and it was very negative. When I start doing it now, I acknowledge it and then let go of the thoughts. It is an unhealthy habit for sure.
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I am an older female. I like some of the colored hair, but mostly when I see it, I just think about how much wasted time goes into some of the more complex hair color. And that goes for “normal” hair colors. I know so many women who spend hours in the salon every few weeks getting it touched up etc, when a good cut every few months is sufficient to look good.
But whatever, style is subjective. I would just rather put my energy elsewhere.
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My pre-teen girl wanted to dye her hair. MrsDBS didn't think it was a good idea but I argued that it didn't hurt anything and would grow out and fade quickly enough. Same discussion around the second ear piercing. She's a teen now and she's still experimenting with her look. It doesn't hurt anyone, she likes how it looks. That's all there is to it.
To Sol's point. She's not old enough to work, but we did have this conversation. Like it or not, there are some places that will not hire you if you have non-natural colored hair, visible tattoos or piercings beyond what is "normal" whatever that is. We let her know that its her choice, but could limit her employment options later. Right now she has purple hair. It looks pretty good...or did until chlorine and sun destroyed the color.
At work, I've got an employee that dies his hair pink. He is a he at work but has shared with me that he's trans (still prefers I use he at work btw). I suspect the hair thing though was just because he wanted to do it, not some signaling of his LGBT status. Another woman at work has some bright red streaks in her otherwise jet black hair. Her son's team made it to a regional qualifier so she colored it to show team support.
In short...people do things to their hair because <reasons>. <Reasons> are different for each person.
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So the first image is of a professional model (https://www.deviantart.com/saphirnoir), the second image is a person with a blog dedicated to fashion/style (https://halsey--17.tumblr.com/), and the 3rd is a photograph of someone from a college website (https://www.warren-wilson.edu/student-life/warren-wilson-style/).
Note: The first profile indicates "Please do not use my pictures without my permission", so it might be a good idea to remove the image from this post. Not sure about the second, but the third is likely copyrighted by the college, so there may also be legal issues with posting it on here as well.
As a huge fan of Halsey, I just wanted to point out that is not her site. It's a random Tumblr person compiling stuff together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halsey_(singer)
https://www.facebook.com/HalseyMusic/
http://www.hfktour.com
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I think it’s incredibly difficult to judge other people, especially the less you know about them. Like, say you see an overweight person. Sure, you could assume they eat donuts all day and never exercise. But you don’t know their story - maybe they’re a huge health nut who used to be 100 lbs heavier, maybe they’ve been suffering from crippling depression which has had the side effect of severe weight gain, maybe years of yo-yo dieting has destroyed their metabolism. Unless you're their doctor, what value does your likely uninformed opinion really offer? Same with hair color - sure, if you know a young person about to enter the working world and have a close enough relationship with them that they’d listen to you, some advice that they might want to forego the blue hair at their new job might be helpful. But otherwise, why worry about it?
I’m unsure what value really comes out of judging other people, other than as a means to make yourself feel better than them. I think it is a natural human habit to judge others, but I think it’s a unhealthy habit that ultimately leads to a lack of understanding and division between ourselves and other people, and thus it’s a habit worth trying to overcome. Why waste mental energy thinking negative things about other people who you have no power to change?
Is it LGB related?
I think it's RGB related.
Hahaha! I am blonde and am planning a narrow pink streak on the right side of my face as a way to celebrate surviving breast cancer for 6 years now! I will do it just before October (Breast Cancer Awareness month).
What a great way to celebrate, very cool!
Thanks! I did the pink streaks in late September. I had assumed it would be temporary, but I should have asked! It has faded somewhat, but I am good with it. I am retired.
A lot of these posts are personal preferences.
I would date a man with a tattoo on his well-worked-out bicep. I would not, however, date a man with a belly so large he looked pregnant. Personal preference only. No judgment.
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It seems like this fad has totally gone away now at least around me.
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If somebody makes a fashion choice that makes them feel happier about themselves and thus easier to have in society, more power to them.
My daughter has lovely nut-brown hair, which I will not let her paint or dye because I don't think the dyes are good for health, and because of expense. Same with makeup and nail polish... just for special occasions. However, once she leaves the fold, she's welcome to make these choices for herself. I do understand that some people want a little "pop" to show that they're not like everybody else, that makes you look at them twice. Others are afraid of sticking out and thus will adapt themselves to look as much like everyone else as possible. Who am I to judge?
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As a kid my mother let us do anything we wanted with our hair, because it would always grow out. At the same time we weren't allowed to pierce our ears until quite a bit later. I love the idea of expressing individualism through hair. All of this judgement over how someone wears their hair reminds me of my now-deceased grumpy grandmother harumphing over things people did around her that offended her (hair, clothes, living in sin etc.). It just upset her because she focused energy on something she had no control over and was none of her business.
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I think many of us wear some kind of “uniform” to fit in with our preferred group. I used to work in NYC and loved to walk through the neighborhoods. The artists had bold hair, clothing, tats and piercings. Or all black. The fashionistas wore the latest designs. Or all black. The corporate types wore Brooks Brothers or Ann Taylor. The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black. Black, of course, being the NYC default.
Such a great city to people watch.
I personally think hair is a great thing to experiment with since, as ysette said, it grows out. My youngest stepdaughter colored a streak of her hair with Jello when she was a preteen. It cost $.69, she had fun with it, and her hair smelled like strawberries.
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This trend is still going really strong in this mid size, super-conservative city. This city also tends to lag several years behind the coasts in terms of adopting trends, though.
I saw a really spectacular version at the rec center last week. The woman had darkish hair, medium length, which she'd had dyed into a rich ombre turquoise. B/c of the base color and how beautifully it was done, her hair resembled ocean water where it transitions through depths.
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I think many of us wear some kind of “uniform” to fit in with our preferred group. I used to work in NYC and loved to walk through the neighborhoods. The artists had bold hair, clothing, tats and piercings. Or all black. The fashionistas wore the latest designs. Or all black. The corporate types wore Brooks Brothers or Ann Taylor. The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black. Black, of course, being the NYC default.
Ha!! When I go down to the city I always felt I stuck out like a sore thumb because I had a turquoise coat, like the bridge and tunnel rube that I am. I eventually toned it down to a white coat, but I still stand out a bit.
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I think many of us wear some kind of “uniform” to fit in with our preferred group. I used to work in NYC and loved to walk through the neighborhoods. The artists had bold hair, clothing, tats and piercings. Or all black. The fashionistas wore the latest designs. Or all black. The corporate types wore Brooks Brothers or Ann Taylor. The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black. Black, of course, being the NYC default.
Ha!! When I go down to the city I always felt I stuck out like a sore thumb because I had a turquoise coat, like the bridge and tunnel rube that I am. I eventually toned it down to a white coat, but I still stand out a bit.
I read a hilarious essay (maybe in The New Yorker?) years ago about a NYC writer who went back to her small midwestern hometown to take care of her mother. Absolutely everything the writer owned was black. When she went out and about, people assumed her mother had died.
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It seems like this fad has totally gone away now at least around me.
I think everyone I know of who cares about fashion is over it now. But everyone I know who had interestingly colored hair when this thread started still does. I don't know that many people who care about fashion, but know lots who love bold colored hair.
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I think many of us wear some kind of “uniform” to fit in with our preferred group. I used to work in NYC and loved to walk through the neighborhoods. The artists had bold hair, clothing, tats and piercings. Or all black. The fashionistas wore the latest designs. Or all black. The corporate types wore Brooks Brothers or Ann Taylor. The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black. Black, of course, being the NYC default.
Ha!! When I go down to the city I always felt I stuck out like a sore thumb because I had a turquoise coat, like the bridge and tunnel rube that I am. I eventually toned it down to a white coat, but I still stand out a bit.
I read a hilarious essay (maybe in The New Yorker?) years ago about a NYC writer who went back to her small midwestern hometown to take care of her mother. Absolutely everything the writer owned was black. When she went out and about, people assumed her mother had died.
I teased a couple friends who moved to NYC because after moving there, they all had black leather coats. Around the same time I had a professor who after traveling returned wearing a black leather coat. I complimented it and she said "thanks, I bought it in New York". This was 10, 15 years ago so I don't know if it's still like that.
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The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black.
I've just been thinking I have a distinct lack of tweed in my wardrobe.
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The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black.
I've just been thinking I have a distinct lack of tweed in my wardrobe.
ha ha I used to be like that! I remember one time some of us graduate students went to a college to talk about our field. At one point a college student raised his hand and asked something to the extent "Why are you all dressed like that?" and I realized yeah we were all wearing our drab and dull colored tweed outfits.
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The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black.
I've just been thinking I have a distinct lack of tweed in my wardrobe.
ha ha I used to be like that! I remember one time some of us graduate students went to a college to talk about our field. At one point a college student raised his hand and asked something to the extent "Why are you all dressed like that?" and I realized yeah we were all wearing our drab and dull colored tweed outfits.
My Mom works at a major University. When my husband enrolled (in a different university) to get his PhD, she bought him a burberry scarf. "All PhD candidates wear a burberry scarf"
Apparently...
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I have rarely seen this in person, but I don't care for it. I've never seen a guy do it. It's just another one of those odd things that I don't get. Fortunately, we don't have too many freaky people around here.
Where do you live, the 1950s?
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I think many of us wear some kind of “uniform” to fit in with our preferred group. I used to work in NYC and loved to walk through the neighborhoods. The artists had bold hair, clothing, tats and piercings. Or all black. The fashionistas wore the latest designs. Or all black. The corporate types wore Brooks Brothers or Ann Taylor. The academics wore tweed or something ethnic and rather shapeless. Or all black. Black, of course, being the NYC default.
Ha!! When I go down to the city I always felt I stuck out like a sore thumb because I had a turquoise coat, like the bridge and tunnel rube that I am. I eventually toned it down to a white coat, but I still stand out a bit.
I read a hilarious essay (maybe in The New Yorker?) years ago about a NYC writer who went back to her small midwestern hometown to take care of her mother. Absolutely everything the writer owned was black. When she went out and about, people assumed her mother had died.
I teased a couple friends who moved to NYC because after moving there, they all had black leather coats. Around the same time I had a professor who after traveling returned wearing a black leather coat. I complimented it and she said "thanks, I bought it in New York". This was 10, 15 years ago so I don't know if it's still like that.
It's all black puffers now. I can't love the look of puffers though they are practical.
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Went through the self-checkout lane at the grocery store. The monitor chick had a blue streak in her hair. Brunette, 20 ish, big and tall female. I thought she was hot. She came over and assisted when the bar code wouldn't scan on my London Broil. Nice girl.
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Maybe I am just getting old
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MODERATOR NOTE:
This thread is apparently all about judging people, especially women, based on their looks.
Sure, this is the "Off Topic" area, but still, I don't see what purpose this serves.
Toque.