Author Topic: Why Progressives Elected Trump  (Read 10428 times)

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #200 on: August 04, 2018, 11:32:34 PM »
I think it's been pointed out numerous times that this line of behavior isn't purely inclusive of the left. If you use this an excuse to vote for someone who actually praises white supremacist, how does that make sense? Wouldn't it make more logical sense to not vote or vote for some third party candidate? I mean you are essentially saying "I don't like being called racist/prejudice (or whatever), so I am going to vote for someone who is."

Dude, I didn't vote for Trump either. Not sure where you are getting that from. However, I am specifically calling out the extremist factions of the left as they created this monster by alienating the moderates within the party. No one wanted an "establishment" candidate, and no one wanted a hippie like Jill Stein. If you want a message of more efficient and meritocratic economic distribution of income and societal inclusion to gain traction, you don't start by labeling people who don't agree with you on social issues as "Nazis" or "(insert pejorative)ist," and you don't start by telling them that the system is working as designed.

Agreed. No one wants to be called a rapist either. No one wants their kids separated from them just for seeking a better life. See where I am going? And to be fair, in the context of Clinton's comment, she wasn't calling everyone of Trump's supporters deplorable. Only the portion that are racist, xenophobic, etc. And there in fact are a portion who fit that mold. Perhaps not half, but who knows?

Except that's an idiotic and irresponsible sound byte that will get abused by her opponents. She has all kinds of handlers who can coach her in getting her message out there. And you're telling me that either they didn't do their job, or she went out and said something like that anyway? Again, Obama stayed away from saying things like that. That's why he had mainstream appeal. All Hillary did was flip flop and stick her foot in her mouth. And she marginalized the very people who were supposed to be shoo-ins to vote for her.

Quote
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/qvm43b/judge-allows-federal-lawsuit-against-25-neo-nazis-to-proceed-for-violence-in-charlottesville
Again, you act like this is something new. This has been going on for decades. Nazis have never been "not a problem" in modern US history, they just never got airtime in the media before recently.

NO, it's always been a problem. It's even more of a problem now that we have a President praising these folks, which only emboldens them. Where were you when people wanted Obama hung from a tree calling him the "N" word and having a now current President leading the birtherism campaign?  Where have you been?
Wake up, the president is not the only one praising them. Congressmen were emboldening those people well before this. Movies like American History X were supposed to dissuade the neo Nazi lifestyle and actually helped embolden them, all the way back in 1998. But I guess it's just easier to paint Trump as the big bad boogeyman ruining everything. Trump is nothing but a blubbering egomaniac idiot. We'd still be in this mess regardless. There are cultural forces at play here that go way beyond what some idiot says from the White House. This would have happened regardless because some in this country seem to think that we are still fighting the Civil War.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
This is not a strawman. If it was, enough voters would not have bailed on the Democratic party, and we wouldn't be staring at President Trump. There is significant evidence that vitriol from the left and Hillary's wild unpopularity turned voters from working class blue states against the Democrats during the election.

Also, I am specifically pointing out how the extremists within the Democratic party are the problem. Both the neoliberals on the right side of it AND the SJW's on the far left. If the Democrats stopped pandering to the ideological purity test and party seniority/service, there would have been a better presidential nominee in 2016. The problem was the moderates in this country who stand for better economic fairness, rule of law, and really aren't as worried about the social issues right now while wages stagnate and cost of living rises significantly faster felt disenfranchised completely, and that's why so many stayed home.

To be clear, and in summary...my argument is that the Democrats did themselves in - I don't blame the voters (or lack thereof) for Trump, rather, I blame Hillary Clinton herself, the Democratic primary system of first past the pole and the superdelegates who swore their loyalty to her early, as well as certain factions within the party that did just about everything possible to alienate moderates and people who weren't socially far left throughout the process. But I don't believe blaming the voters who didn't vote is justified. No candidate is entitled to the votes from any segment of the population unless they go out and earn them.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 02:44:02 AM by Raymond Reddington »

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #201 on: August 05, 2018, 10:05:29 AM »
Agreed. No one wants to be called a rapist either. No one wants their kids separated from them just for seeking a better life. See where I am going? And to be fair, in the context of Clinton's comment, she wasn't calling everyone of Trump's supporters deplorable. Only the portion that are racist, xenophobic, etc. And there in fact are a portion who fit that mold. Perhaps not half, but who knows?

Except that's an idiotic and irresponsible sound byte that will get abused by her opponents. She has all kinds of handlers who can coach her in getting her message out there. And you're telling me that either they didn't do their job, or she went out and said something like that anyway? Again, Obama stayed away from saying things like that. That's why he had mainstream appeal. All Hillary did was flip flop and stick her foot in her mouth. And she marginalized the very people who were supposed to be shoo-ins to vote for her.

Sure, I think we all agree it was a tactical mistake at this point, but what is she really guilty of, "straight talk"? That thing Trump's supporters say they love so much about him? That thing he does half the time time he opens his mouth or gets on twitter?

If I identified as the "corrupt" left or the "crazy" liberals he bashes and degrades on a regular basis, I guess I should feel offended most of the time, or at least offended on their behalf. If insulting large groups of people is pushing people away, Trump pushed much harder than Clinton.

And consider this, if she insulted "Trump voters" directly, who is she really offending? People who have already made up their minds to vote for him? I think this largely effected people who were looking for an excuse to vote against her anyways and who hold women to a double standard.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #202 on: August 05, 2018, 10:25:24 AM »
The "basket of deplorables" is an example of extremely bad speechwriting and tactical thinking from a campaign whose pitch was essentially "we're experienced enough to know what we're doing." But even in that speech, Hillary Clinton, just a few sentences later, made the same point I've been trying to make in this thread. Which is that she did NOT say all Trump voters were deplorable and unreachable sexists and racists. She said that half of them were.

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic — Islamophobic — you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket — the other basket — and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

It's the people in that second basket who are reachable. But if you dump their basket into the deplorable basket* then they stop being reachable.

*An analogy I can (hopefully) safely use because I'm not trying to run for public office.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #203 on: August 05, 2018, 10:34:27 AM »
The "basket of deplorables" is an example of extremely bad speechwriting and tactical thinking from a campaign whose pitch was essentially "we're experienced enough to know what we're doing." But even in that speech, Hillary Clinton, just a few sentences later, made the same point I've been trying to make in this thread. Which is that she did NOT say all Trump voters were deplorable and unreachable sexists and racists. She said that half of them were.

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic — Islamophobic — you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket — the other basket — and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

It's the people in that second basket who are reachable. But if you dump their basket into the deplorable basket* then they stop being reachable.

*An analogy I can (hopefully) safely use because I'm not trying to run for public office.

I am not sure why you think this isn’t what most of us are saying? I mean, I reject the idea white people need to be coddled. This is asinine and ridiculous thinking, but I do agree the focus needs to be improved to catch the middle voters who did vote Trump without that racist baggage. More focus on policy and what they will DO, and less on identity (including white identity!!).

Do you not see, though, the irony of begging Democrats to stop being so rude when rudeness is the reason a lot of people voted for Trump? Somehow they believe being an asshole or “plain talking”means he’s more trustworthy. So, how exactly do the Dems employ those tactics without alienating anyone else? I really can’t get my head around that one.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #204 on: August 05, 2018, 10:52:15 AM »
I am not sure why you think this isn’t what most of us are saying? I mean, I reject the idea white people need to be coddled. This is asinine and ridiculous thinking, but I do agree the focus needs to be improved to catch the middle voters who did vote Trump without that racist baggage. More focus on policy and what they will DO, and less on identity (including white identity!!).

Well obviously I disagree with you that my position is asinine and ridiculous. I also disagree with you that I am discussing is coddling: Just the same disapproval for anyone singling a group or people for negative comments based on their race, sex, or gender identity, or geographic origin that we'd provide to any other group.

The reason I'm bringing up this point is that I've had debates on this thread with people who are convinced anyone who voted for trump by definition voting for republican candidates out of party loyalty, or was an inherently insecure racist. It can be very hard to judge group sentiment in online discussions, so all I can say for sure is that there weren't very many voices jumping to disagree with that characterization of anyone who voted for Trump.

FWIW, I completely agree with you that a reduced focus on identity (other than maybe a unified identity of americans as a whole) would be good for both winning elections and good for the health of our society generally.

Quote
Do you not see, though, the irony of begging Democrats to stop being so rude when rudeness is the reason a lot of people voted for Trump? Somehow they believe being an asshole or “plain talking”means he’s more trustworthy. So, how exactly do the Dems employ those tactics without alienating anyone else? I really can’t get my head around that one.

I disagree with your characterization of my previous posts as begging. But *shrug.*

My answer would be different strategies work when you are trying to appeal to voters' better natures or baser urges.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Location: MA
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #205 on: August 05, 2018, 11:14:32 AM »
Quote
There is significant evidence that vitriol from the left and Hillary's wild unpopularity turned voters from working class blue states against the Democrats during the election.

65 million votes is “wildly unpopular?”.    https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/popular-vote/

It is so funny how people are so focused on the deplorable comments as a reason for why she lost the election.  Trump’s many, many, many, racist, sexist, divisive and hateful comments weren’t enough for him to lose, so why the scrutiny on the lefts relatively tame behavior? 

Fascinating how people want to continuously blame HRC, or anyoneor anything else really, instead of facing the reality that a large enough number of the electorate was motivated by a directly racist message, and a larger number was more interested in preserving their wealth and status than in civil rights for minorities.  It isn’t that Hillary failed to turn out the left, it is that Trump succeeded in using white identity politics in motivating and turning out people who are deeply frightened of a changing culture and demographics that aren’t in their favor.   




maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #206 on: August 05, 2018, 11:50:12 AM »
65 million votes is “wildly unpopular?”.
I voted for HRC because I disliked Trump even more. Votes are not a great measure of popularity.

Quote
It is so funny how people are so focused on the deplorable comments as a reason for why she lost the election.

I don't think Hillary Clinton lost the election because of that comment. I think she was already going to lose already, just none of us knew it yet. The deployables comment is useful because it's a good shorthand for the worldview a number of folks have adopted SINCE losing the election which is reducing our chances of winning the next one.

Quote
Trump’s many, many, many, racist, sexist, divisive and hateful comments weren’t enough for him to lose, so why the scrutiny on the lefts relatively tame behavior? 

Different tactics for appealing to better natures or base natures. Or if you prefer: "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

Quote
Fascinating how people want to continuously blame HRC, or anyone or anything else really, instead of facing the reality that a large enough number of the electorate was motivated by a directly racist message, and a larger number was more interested in preserving their wealth and status than in civil rights for minorities.  It isn’t that Hillary failed to turn out the left, it is that Trump succeeded in using white identity politics in motivating and turning out people who are deeply frightened of a changing culture and demographics that aren’t in their favor.

If that is really how you perceive the american electorate, we're basically doomed, no? So if you're right, nothing we do matters, democrats, at least ones who do not fatally compromise what the party stands for, cannot win the presidency again for decades (perhaps until the united states electorate* becomes majority minority in the second half of the 21st century).

But if I'm right, there are plenty of people, regardless of race, who can be reached with the right message and the right candidate and convinced to pull the lever for a liberal or progressive president (just like they did in 2008 and 2012). What do you have to lose?

*Our overall population is projected to become majority minority before that, but it takes longer for the voting age population to switch over, and longer still for the population that actually votes to switch over if the current pattern of the elderly turning out at higher rates than the young holds up.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #207 on: August 05, 2018, 12:00:06 PM »
Again, you are forgetting EC. I've said it before, the Dems can win the popular votes by a landslide (+20million along the coasts for what its worth), but if they lose the mid-west and florida (and they did) by even a single vote its game over. And yes, that comment was unpopular in the mid-west.

It's simple mathematics, look at the margins in these key states, these are super low hanging fruits.

I would argue this whole thing started way before the deplorable comment. Look at how many seats R gained in 2014, the loss of margins in pres. elec. in 2012. Trump did not get elected simply because of the deplorable comment, it took many years to happen.

So now we have a timeline, voters being pushed away (or disenfranchised) since 2012 (perhaps even as early as 2010), then Trump came along in 2016 and said all these racist and sexist things but they simply didn't stick, because like you said, identity politics.

And your solution is to double down on everything the Ds have been doing since 2012 and hopefully the demographics will be on your side sometime in the future?

I don't know if that will happen but I am not optimistic. As people age, they tend to move from left to right (or at least closer to the center), everyone knows this, and its happened throughout modern American history. You can argue the minorities and the young folks today are different, maybe they are, maybe they aren't, we really wont know for another 20-30 years, I am not going to sit around to find out if this pans out in some distant future.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #208 on: August 05, 2018, 01:22:50 PM »
Quote
There is significant evidence that vitriol from the left and Hillary's wild unpopularity turned voters from working class blue states against the Democrats during the election.

65 million votes is “wildly unpopular?”.    https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/popular-vote/

It is so funny how people are so focused on the deplorable comments as a reason for why she lost the election.  Trump’s many, many, many, racist, sexist, divisive and hateful comments weren’t enough for him to lose, so why the scrutiny on the lefts relatively tame behavior? 

Fascinating how people want to continuously blame HRC, or anyoneor anything else really, instead of facing the reality that a large enough number of the electorate was motivated by a directly racist message, and a larger number was more interested in preserving their wealth and status than in civil rights for minorities.  It isn’t that Hillary failed to turn out the left, it is that Trump succeeded in using white identity politics in motivating and turning out people who are deeply frightened of a changing culture and demographics that aren’t in their favor.

Actually yes. Look at polls leading up to the election regarding unfavorability. Hillary's unfavorability measures not just the people who voted for Trump, but also many who stayed home or voted third party.

Trump's shock jock comments resonated with BOTH his followers AND the undecided portion of the electorate, especially when he attacked Hillary who went after them. Because he took their side against the name calling liberals, and crafted several different straw men to blame for their economic plight. Hillary's "unfiltered truth" comments didn't resonate with that portion of the electorate, and she offered no explanation for why they had been marginalized by a system she didn't want to change. Because here was Hillary, when you really get down to brass tacks, trying to tell them that the system was "working" and didn't need major changes. And the people who were calling these middle voters racist weren't the candidates, it was the more radical members of the Democratic party, who seem to be triggered by every disagreement these days. Why? Because these economically disenfranchised people might have the gall to personally not believe in *gasp* one of the following: abortion, gay marriage, that every single police killing of a minority was unjustified (some people can actually distinguish between the individual cases, and look at each individually!), that illegal immigrants should have the rights of full citizens, that guns are terrible terrible things that should be banned and somehow that would stop crime despite many crimes being committed with guns owned illegally, that higher education should be 100% free, that everyone should have their student loans forgiven, that because they are white they must constantly apologize for being "privileged" even though they are struggling to make ends meet, etc. etc.

You know, the same people that hijacked Occupy Wall Street, and turned it from a movement interested in protesting the unfairness of bank bailouts, income inequality, and the lack of prosecutions for the financial crisis...and somehow turned it into a feces filled homeless camp that was about "saving the environment."

IMO The Democrats win the election handily if the behavior of their radical elements AND their candidate don't turn off these working class voters in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, or the working class retirees in Florida. Hell, I live in a deep blue state, and in my district, 45% voted for Trump.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 06:41:39 PM by Raymond Reddington »

LaineyAZ

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 168
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #209 on: August 05, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
Quote
There is significant evidence that vitriol from the left and Hillary's wild unpopularity turned voters from working class blue states against the Democrats during the election.

65 million votes is “wildly unpopular?”.    https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/popular-vote/

It is so funny how people are so focused on the deplorable comments as a reason for why she lost the election.  Trump’s many, many, many, racist, sexist, divisive and hateful comments weren’t enough for him to lose, so why the scrutiny on the lefts relatively tame behavior? 

Fascinating how people want to continuously blame HRC, or anyoneor anything else really, instead of facing the reality that a large enough number of the electorate was motivated by a directly racist message, and a larger number was more interested in preserving their wealth and status than in civil rights for minorities.  It isn’t that Hillary failed to turn out the left, it is that Trump succeeded in using white identity politics in motivating and turning out people who are deeply frightened of a changing culture and demographics that aren’t in their favor.

+1.   Matches my experience with what I saw and heard during the campaign here in red/purplish AZ. 
The comments about Trump, early on, from local conservatives seemed to focus on how happy they were that "he's saying what people are thinking."  To me, as a liberal, that meant that because Trump didn't feel the need to be politically correct (a term and stance that conservatives like to mock) that then freed those whose intense dislike of minorities, women, immigrants, etc. to revel in his open bigotry and support him on the ballot. 

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #210 on: August 05, 2018, 02:54:55 PM »
+1.   Matches my experience with what I saw and heard during the campaign here in red/purplish AZ. 
The comments about Trump, early on, from local conservatives seemed to focus on how happy they were that "he's saying what people are thinking."  To me, as a liberal, that meant that because Trump didn't feel the need to be politically correct (a term and stance that conservatives like to mock) that then freed those whose intense dislike of minorities, women, immigrants, etc. to revel in his open bigotry and support him on the ballot.

I think a case can be made that Trump indeed attracts those with intense dislike of minorities, women, immigrants, etc. But I think this accounts for a only a minority of those ended up voting for him. I call these folks his "core base", some of them are indeed really hateful.

But he also attracted a sizeable portion of minorities and women, in AZ alone.

How do you explain the minorities and women that voted for him?

Based on exit polls, Clinton won about 66% of latino votes in AZ, the rest went to Trump. Sure, exit polls are not always accurate and that number seems high. But another poll one month before the election took place also told the same story.

"Latino voters, who make up a fifth of the state’s electorate, are supporting Clinton over Trump by 35 percentage points."

45% of women in AZ voted for Trump. Are you going to argue that the minorities voted for Trump disliked women and the women voted for Trump disliked minorities?

How about minority women that voted for him then? That they disliked other minorities?

Many of these "Trump voters are all racists and sexists" arguments melt away when we take a closer look at how voters actually voted.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #211 on: August 06, 2018, 11:00:04 AM »
Well, to be fair, there are plenty of women who buy into the whole man-as-head stuff, think other women are lying about sexual abuse, and think there is zero pay disparity amongst men and women, etc. I believed some of this myself when I was younger. So, no, I’m not shocked women would vote with their men for Trump. My friend totally fits the profile, actually. Being a female is a complicated thing. I’d imagine it’s the same for minorities, who are clearly very different from person to person as is anyone.

Maybe we should all stop assuming stuff?

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3283
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #212 on: August 06, 2018, 11:15:28 AM »
Basically, the people who voted for Trump don't see racism and sexism as deal-breakers. For whatever reason. For some of them, they can tell themselves what they're seeing from him isn't actually racism and sexism. But I think they have to contort themselves quite a bit to do that.

Not that human beings are strangers to contorting themselves into all sorts of shapes to avoid seeing what they don't want to see.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #213 on: August 06, 2018, 11:28:58 AM »
+1.   Matches my experience with what I saw and heard during the campaign here in red/purplish AZ. 
The comments about Trump, early on, from local conservatives seemed to focus on how happy they were that "he's saying what people are thinking."  To me, as a liberal, that meant that because Trump didn't feel the need to be politically correct (a term and stance that conservatives like to mock) that then freed those whose intense dislike of minorities, women, immigrants, etc. to revel in his open bigotry and support him on the ballot.

I think a case can be made that Trump indeed attracts those with intense dislike of minorities, women, immigrants, etc. But I think this accounts for a only a minority of those ended up voting for him. I call these folks his "core base", some of them are indeed really hateful.

But he also attracted a sizeable portion of minorities and women, in AZ alone.

How do you explain the minorities and women that voted for him?

Based on exit polls, Clinton won about 66% of latino votes in AZ, the rest went to Trump. Sure, exit polls are not always accurate and that number seems high. But another poll one month before the election took place also told the same story.

"Latino voters, who make up a fifth of the state’s electorate, are supporting Clinton over Trump by 35 percentage points."

45% of women in AZ voted for Trump. Are you going to argue that the minorities voted for Trump disliked women and the women voted for Trump disliked minorities?

How about minority women that voted for him then? That they disliked other minorities?

Many of these "Trump voters are all racists and sexists" arguments melt away when we take a closer look at how voters actually voted.

I think the key here is that "dislike" was the wrong word, it's more a matter of thinking less of these groups than disliking them. For example, I love dogs but I don't respect them the same as humans and I don't think they should have the right to vote.*

However I also reject the notion that all or even most of the people who have a problem with PC culture are openly bigoted. I think lots of them truly believe that the effort to force political correctness on others is what keeps racism and bigotry alive. I disagree on the whole, but acknowledge that in certain instances this may be true.

*I am in no way comparing any group of people to dogs.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #214 on: August 06, 2018, 03:55:28 PM »
I want to point out a recent example of how a moderate D was able to get elected in a state that's decidedly R.

Missouri has long been a red state (last blue was Clinton 1996 D+6, although this could be a special case because of Ross Perot), even Obama couldn't win it there in 2008, he did come close however.

Over the years, Missouri went from R+7 (2004) > R+0.2 (2008) > R+9.4 (2012) > R+20 (2016), the trend is clear, it's a lot redder today than say 2000. Despite all this, Sen. McCaskill was able to get elected both in 2006 and 2012. She actually got more votes in 2012 than in 2006.

Even in the 2004 gubernatorial election that she eventually lost, she outperformed the D presidential candidate Kerry by a substantial margin (-2.9 vs -7).

The race there this year will be close, and she could lose to Hawley, but we have to put it into the context of background trend. Missouri is arguably more conservative today than 15 years ago (R+ margin), it's a remarkable feat that a D, a female D in a conservative state no less, is able to stay competitive against the trend.

Again, this shows it's not all race and gender bias with the conservative voters. Moderation is key, especially in these difficult to win races. It should then come as no surprise that McCaskill is ranked as one of the most moderate senators at the moment.

Perhaps she's just a sneaky politician playing both sides, but her "universal" platform has been working. The Trump voters' votes are winnable, with the right candidate and the right strategy.

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2908
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #215 on: August 06, 2018, 11:05:24 PM »
I want to point out a recent example of how a moderate D was able to get elected in a state that's decidedly R.

Missouri has long been a red state (last blue was Clinton 1996 D+6, although this could be a special case because of Ross Perot), even Obama couldn't win it there in 2008, he did come close however.

Over the years, Missouri went from R+7 (2004) > R+0.2 (2008) > R+9.4 (2012) > R+20 (2016), the trend is clear, it's a lot redder today than say 2000. Despite all this, Sen. McCaskill was able to get elected both in 2006 and 2012. She actually got more votes in 2012 than in 2006.

Even in the 2004 gubernatorial election that she eventually lost, she outperformed the D presidential candidate Kerry by a substantial margin (-2.9 vs -7).

The race there this year will be close, and she could lose to Hawley, but we have to put it into the context of background trend. Missouri is arguably more conservative today than 15 years ago (R+ margin), it's a remarkable feat that a D, a female D in a conservative state no less, is able to stay competitive against the trend.

Again, this shows it's not all race and gender bias with the conservative voters. Moderation is key, especially in these difficult to win races. It should then come as no surprise that McCaskill is ranked as one of the most moderate senators at the moment.

Perhaps she's just a sneaky politician playing both sides, but her "universal" platform has been working. The Trump voters' votes are winnable, with the right candidate and the right strategy.
The major reason mcCaskill did well in the last  election was because her opponent, Todd .Aiken, opened his stupid mouth just before the election  and let fly idiocy about true rape not resulting in pregnancy. That was huge, and many Republicans wanted him off the ticket for incompetentcy. It was a huge huge deal.  Mr Aiken considered himself annoited by the voters to be on the ticket and did not step down.

Mr. Aiken slam dunked the election for McCaskill. It was his gift to her. I know Republicans who didnt vote for him.

She will have a harder time this time around. And no, she isnt very moderate as far as
I am concerned and I wont be voting for her. I am pretty sure I didn't vote for her last time, but didnt vote for Aiken, either.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #216 on: August 07, 2018, 07:48:16 AM »
I assume everyone has seen that picture of fine patriots who would rather be Russian than Democrats.  We've also seen the picture of angry young men with tiki torches shouting into the void.  These are the images of this political era that will always stick with me. 

I do indeed blame the people who voted for Donald Trump for this.  I really don't subscribe to the idea that they are blameless.  The bulk of information available at the time indicated quite clearly who the better choice was.  Maybe some of them didn't know better, but they certainly could have.  Had they made such poor choices when it came to personal finance, they'd deserve a face punch.  When people buy luxury items they can't afford and blame the media or their aspirational friends, we tell them to grow up.  So when people vote for an incompetent and corrupt buffoon and habitual liar because they thought he "told it like it is" and would "drain the swamp", I won't give them a pass.  Even Fox news viewers could have seen a man mocking a disabled reporter. 

I'm ok with learning lessons and honing messages.  But blaming the people who didn't vote for Trump to provide cover for those who did is a bridge too far for me.








Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #217 on: August 07, 2018, 08:18:09 AM »
I assume everyone has seen that picture of fine patriots who would rather be Russian than Democrats.  We've also seen the picture of angry young men with tiki torches shouting into the void.  These are the images of this political era that will always stick with me. 

I do indeed blame the people who voted for Donald Trump for this.  I really don't subscribe to the idea that they are blameless.  The bulk of information available at the time indicated quite clearly who the better choice was.  Maybe some of them didn't know better, but they certainly could have.  Had they made such poor choices when it came to personal finance, they'd deserve a face punch.  When people buy luxury items they can't afford and blame the media or their aspirational friends, we tell them to grow up.  So when people vote for an incompetent and corrupt buffoon and habitual liar because they thought he "told it like it is" and would "drain the swamp", I won't give them a pass.  Even Fox news viewers could have seen a man mocking a disabled reporter. 

I'm ok with learning lessons and honing messages.  But blaming the people who didn't vote for Trump to provide cover for those who did is a bridge too far for me.

I don't think anyone has suggested this (except maybe the poorly chosen name of this thread). The comment that initiated the discussion was "the Progressives are just as responsible in electing Trump as voters who actually voted for him."

I certainly don't agree with the "just as" part either, I'm not even sure the person who said it believes that. However, I do accept that the perception of "progressives" that has been created through a combination of a few radical progressives and the likes of fox news played an important role in the election. I also think that the Democratic party should acknowledge this and work on it.

In personal finance, ignorant decisions lead to personal consequences (mostly). In politics it affects us all.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #218 on: August 07, 2018, 09:04:43 AM »
I don't know.  Republicans have been agitating about long-haired hippies and commie leftists since the 60s.  They are a perpetual conservative bugaboo, so I'm not sure that this is anything new.  Fox news has an interest in amplifying anything they see, so there isn't anything to do about it other than pivot away if you are a Democratic candidate. 

If I had to cast blame on progressives, I'm more troubled by people who still are upset about "RIGGED" primaries.  They obviously weren't politically active in 2008 to see the exact reverse process in which Obama took advantage of the Southern vote and superdelegates (that were supposedly evidence of rigging when they benefited Hillary) as well as the natural advantage that the caucus process provides to upstart candidates to capture the nomination.  I'm at a loss for how to handle them, since patiently explaining the nomination rules that were in place before Sanders even joined the party doesn't seem to work. 

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1655
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #219 on: August 07, 2018, 09:47:23 AM »
I assume everyone has seen that picture of fine patriots who would rather be Russian than Democrats.  We've also seen the picture of angry young men with tiki torches shouting into the void.  These are the images of this political era that will always stick with me. 

I do indeed blame the people who voted for Donald Trump for this.  I really don't subscribe to the idea that they are blameless.  The bulk of information available at the time indicated quite clearly who the better choice was.  Maybe some of them didn't know better, but they certainly could have.  Had they made such poor choices when it came to personal finance, they'd deserve a face punch.  When people buy luxury items they can't afford and blame the media or their aspirational friends, we tell them to grow up.  So when people vote for an incompetent and corrupt buffoon and habitual liar because they thought he "told it like it is" and would "drain the swamp", I won't give them a pass.  Even Fox news viewers could have seen a man mocking a disabled reporter. 

I'm ok with learning lessons and honing messages.  But blaming the people who didn't vote for Trump to provide cover for those who did is a bridge too far for me.

Well said! I find this whole thread a bit disingenuous. People need to take responsibility for their decisions. Clinton's deplorable comment isn't even in the same universe as the verbal vomit Trump spewed and continues to spew. And the very few far left can easily be hand waved away. If you voted for the current shit show own up to it and don't repeat your mistake. If you think he is doing a great job then progressives had no say in your decision anyways.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #220 on: August 07, 2018, 11:00:32 AM »
In personal finance, uninvited face punches very rarely achieve the desired goal of changing people's behavior (with the possible exception of here on the forum where posters may well be looking for a face punch to make them sit up and reconsider their assumptions). If anything people also dig in and become more invested in their positions in the face of (what they perceive as) criticism and judgement from outside. On the other hand, the techniques we on the forum have found work for personal finance are things like setting a good example, and offering stories of our own personal struggles and how we overcame them.

My guess is that face punching voters is also unlikely to achieve the desired goal of convincing them to change their behavior.

My fear is that many people on this thread are a lot more interested in apportioning blame (which is different from discussing causality as one includes a moral judgement and the other is just trying to figure out cause and effect relationships and effect sizes) for the last election, then in trying to win the next one.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #221 on: August 07, 2018, 02:40:46 PM »
Another example in conservative western Penn (R+20, 2016 pres. elec.):

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/14/pennsylvania-election-results-2018-analysis-217360

"The 33-year-old Marine vet, federal prosecutor and Allegheny County political progeny didn’t pick a side. He took some positions from out of each camp’s bucket, all while brandishing his assault rifle."

"But Lamb was hardly a poster child for democratic socialism. He did not campaign on the left’s most cherished policy plank of a single-payer health insurance system. In fact, he followed the advice of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee’s cautious health care polling memo, which said, “The American people overwhelmingly want Congress to improve the Affordable Care Act, not repeal it or replace it with something radically different.”

"Lamb stayed away from another major progressive populist goal, a $15 minimum wage, which he said “sounds high based on what I’ve been told by many small-business owners in our area.” He did not endear himself to some environmentalists when he supported natural gas fracking, siding with energy industry workers still reeling from the decline of the coal industry."

"The DCCC is inclined to favor candidates it considers to be good fits for their districts; if a district tilts right, the DCCC will be hesitant to spend a lot of campaign cash on a candidate who swerves left. Many progressives have a different view—they insist that proud, authentic populists can win anywhere, especially in working-class districts that sided with Trump."

"Lamb’s “populism lite” approach doesn’t definitively disprove that argument, but after a year of special congressional elections in reddish areas, the progressive populists lack a model case of their own. Their preferred 2017 candidates, Quist in Montana and James Thompson in Kansas, fell short, while the more moderate Jones triumphed in Alabama. While some credited Roy Moore’s scandals more than Jones’ positions for the victory, Lamb’s similar performance augurs otherwise."
Edit: A parallel can be drawn between Moore and Aiken here and scandals likely swayed the results. The flip side of attributing the win to the scandals actually reinforces the argument that not all R voters are racists and sexists, otherwise they wouldn't have switched.

"Lamb’s performance does suggest that Democratic candidates can tailor their messages to their home districts, appeal to swing voters and pacify the Republican base, while still generating strong Democratic base turnout. "

"But as the primary season gears up, those preaching electoral pragmatism, policy restraint and a bipartisan veneer have high-profile special election success stories to cite. Progressive populists are still waiting."


Again, with the right candidate and right strategy, Trump voters' votes are winnable.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 04:22:45 PM by anisotropy »

aaahhrealmarcus

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Location: Missouri
  • Declutter. Decommodify. Denerdify.
    • Minimally Nerdy
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #222 on: August 07, 2018, 03:39:47 PM »
I want to point out a recent example of how a moderate D was able to get elected in a state that's decidedly R.

Missouri has long been a red state (last blue was Clinton 1996 D+6, although this could be a special case because of Ross Perot), even Obama couldn't win it there in 2008, he did come close however.

Over the years, Missouri went from R+7 (2004) > R+0.2 (2008) > R+9.4 (2012) > R+20 (2016), the trend is clear, it's a lot redder today than say 2000. Despite all this, Sen. McCaskill was able to get elected both in 2006 and 2012. She actually got more votes in 2012 than in 2006.

Even in the 2004 gubernatorial election that she eventually lost, she outperformed the D presidential candidate Kerry by a substantial margin (-2.9 vs -7).

The race there this year will be close, and she could lose to Hawley, but we have to put it into the context of background trend. Missouri is arguably more conservative today than 15 years ago (R+ margin), it's a remarkable feat that a D, a female D in a conservative state no less, is able to stay competitive against the trend.

Again, this shows it's not all race and gender bias with the conservative voters. Moderation is key, especially in these difficult to win races. It should then come as no surprise that McCaskill is ranked as one of the most moderate senators at the moment.

Perhaps she's just a sneaky politician playing both sides, but her "universal" platform has been working. The Trump voters' votes are winnable, with the right candidate and the right strategy.
The major reason mcCaskill did well in the last  election was because her opponent, Todd .Aiken, opened his stupid mouth just before the election  and let fly idiocy about true rape not resulting in pregnancy. That was huge, and many Republicans wanted him off the ticket for incompetentcy. It was a huge huge deal.  Mr Aiken considered himself annoited by the voters to be on the ticket and did not step down.

Mr. Aiken slam dunked the election for McCaskill. It was his gift to her. I know Republicans who didnt vote for him.

She will have a harder time this time around. And no, she isnt very moderate as far as
I am concerned and I wont be voting for her. I am pretty sure I didn't vote for her last time, but didnt vote for Aiken, either.

Fellow Missourian here. You're spot on with Aiken's verbal diarrhea handing McCaskill the win. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about that little incident... still, McCaskill is by far one of the most conservative Democratic senators. She's come out against the $15 minimum wage, Medicare for all, and many other liberal/progressive platforms. So I don't want to derail this convo into a discussion of her policies, just curious why you wouldn't consider her a moderate?

fatcow240

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 123
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Dallas
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #223 on: August 07, 2018, 04:18:21 PM »
Pretty close to neutral, but a little to the right.


Economic Left/Right: 1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.1

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2908
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #224 on: August 07, 2018, 05:03:17 PM »
I want to point out a recent example of how a moderate D was able to get elected in a state that's decidedly R.

Missouri has long been a red state (last blue was Clinton 1996 D+6, although this could be a special case because of Ross Perot), even Obama couldn't win it there in 2008, he did come close however.

Over the years, Missouri went from R+7 (2004) > R+0.2 (2008) > R+9.4 (2012) > R+20 (2016), the trend is clear, it's a lot redder today than say 2000. Despite all this, Sen. McCaskill was able to get elected both in 2006 and 2012. She actually got more votes in 2012 than in 2006.

Even in the 2004 gubernatorial election that she eventually lost, she outperformed the D presidential candidate Kerry by a substantial margin (-2.9 vs -7).

The race there this year will be close, and she could lose to Hawley, but we have to put it into the context of background trend. Missouri is arguably more conservative today than 15 years ago (R+ margin), it's a remarkable feat that a D, a female D in a conservative state no less, is able to stay competitive against the trend.

Again, this shows it's not all race and gender bias with the conservative voters. Moderation is key, especially in these difficult to win races. It should then come as no surprise that McCaskill is ranked as one of the most moderate senators at the moment.

Perhaps she's just a sneaky politician playing both sides, but her "universal" platform has been working. The Trump voters' votes are winnable, with the right candidate and the right strategy.
The major reason mcCaskill did well in the last  election was because her opponent, Todd .Aiken, opened his stupid mouth just before the election  and let fly idiocy about true rape not resulting in pregnancy. That was huge, and many Republicans wanted him off the ticket for incompetentcy. It was a huge huge deal.  Mr Aiken considered himself annoited by the voters to be on the ticket and did not step down.

Mr. Aiken slam dunked the election for McCaskill. It was his gift to her. I know Republicans who didnt vote for him.

She will have a harder time this time around. And no, she isnt very moderate as far as
I am concerned and I wont be voting for her. I am pretty sure I didn't vote for her last time, but didnt vote for Aiken, either.

Fellow Missourian here. You're spot on with Aiken's verbal diarrhea handing McCaskill the win. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about that little incident... still, McCaskill is by far one of the most conservative Democratic senators. She's come out against the $15 minimum wage, Medicare for all, and many other liberal/progressive platforms. So I don't want to derail this convo into a discussion of her policies, just curious why you wouldn't consider her a moderate?
She might be “moderate” for the left, I will give you that, and given your examples. But she votes eith the Democrats more often than not.

She does like referring to herself as moderate.

I wont be voting for her, but I will nt be surprised if she wins here.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1655
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #225 on: August 08, 2018, 05:44:56 AM »
Again, with the right candidate and right strategy, Trump voters' votes are winnable.

Would the right strategy involve running against a child molester? Just curious since there seems to be no doubt that had Moore not been a child molester, he would have easily won. I can't believe how many people still voted for that POS.

OurTown

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 913
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #226 on: August 08, 2018, 08:14:05 AM »
Technically, Roy Moore was more of a late-adolescent molester.  Hey, at least the girls were over 16, right?  (I think they were, I'm not really sure).  Who hasn't cruised the malls looking for hot high school girls when you are a 30-something prosecuting attorney, right?    And who hasn't creeped out a teenage waitress by offering to drive her home and then trying to feel her up in a parked car? 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11819
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #227 on: August 08, 2018, 08:19:10 AM »
Technically, Roy Moore was more of a late-adolescent molester.  Hey, at least the girls were over 16, right?  (I think they were, I'm not really sure).  Who hasn't cruised the malls looking for hot high school girls when you are a 30-something prosecuting attorney, right?    And who hasn't creeped out a teenage waitress by offering to drive her home and then trying to feel her up in a parked car?

One of the girls he assaulted was 14.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #228 on: August 08, 2018, 08:25:46 AM »
In personal finance, uninvited face punches very rarely achieve the desired goal of changing people's behavior (with the possible exception of here on the forum where posters may well be looking for a face punch to make them sit up and reconsider their assumptions). If anything people also dig in and become more invested in their positions in the face of (what they perceive as) criticism and judgement from outside. On the other hand, the techniques we on the forum have found work for personal finance are things like setting a good example, and offering stories of our own personal struggles and how we overcame them.

My guess is that face punching voters is also unlikely to achieve the desired goal of convincing them to change their behavior.

My fear is that many people on this thread are a lot more interested in apportioning blame (which is different from discussing causality as one includes a moral judgement and the other is just trying to figure out cause and effect relationships and effect sizes) for the last election, then in trying to win the next one.

I think you have a good point, but I still struggle with the double standard.  Conservative voters and their candidates talk shit about liberals all the time, and no one wrings their hands about how they are going to look uncivil and lose potential swing voters.  In fact, given the authoritarian bent of the average conservative voter, there is a good argument that this incivility is a feature and not a bug for them.  They want their candidate to be an asshole to the other side.  Our voters aren't motivated by the same things.

I very much agree that figuring out how to get Trump out of office does involves more than talking about how much his voters suck. 
If anyone has seen John Mulaney's standup special, he has a bit about how Trump is like a horse loose in a hospital.  Half his friends are like "there shouldn't be a horse in a hospital at all" and he is like "ok-but we are WAY past that". I'm on team Figure Out How to Motivate Nonvoters.  I think Trump voters are just too difficult to reach at this point.  They've shut out all other sources of information.  I can promise not to face punch them in real life, but I think they've already dug in.

OurTown

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 913
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #229 on: August 08, 2018, 08:40:16 AM »
Technically, Roy Moore was more of a late-adolescent molester.  Hey, at least the girls were over 16, right?  (I think they were, I'm not really sure).  Who hasn't cruised the malls looking for hot high school girls when you are a 30-something prosecuting attorney, right?    And who hasn't creeped out a teenage waitress by offering to drive her home and then trying to feel her up in a parked car?

One of the girls he assaulted was 14.

Oops, my bad.  I also left out creepy yearbook signing.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #230 on: August 08, 2018, 09:36:39 AM »
Again, with the right candidate and right strategy, Trump voters' votes are winnable.

Would the right strategy involve running against a child molester? Just curious since there seems to be no doubt that had Moore not been a child molester, he would have easily won. I can't believe how many people still voted for that POS.

The flip side of attributing the win to the scandals reinforces the argument that not all R voters are racists and sexists, otherwise they would have voted for moore regardless. Compare the votes Sessions got in 2008 to what moore got in 2017 (even though the margins stayed ~constant for 2008 ad 2016 pres. elec.), not all Trump* voters are racists and sexists.

The right strategies are quite evident from the previous articles linked (Lamb and McCaskill).

While some credited Roy Moore’s scandals more than Jones’ positions for the victory, Lamb’s similar performance augurs otherwise." 

"Lamb’s performance does suggest that Democratic candidates can tailor their messages to their home districts, appeal to swing voters and pacify the Republican base, while still generating strong Democratic base turnout. "

Here is something that is eerily similar to what the thread had been discussing:

Debbie Phillips, a 65-year-old Republican in a cropped white denim jacket who wasn’t afraid to stand up in a packed room full of Democrats to voice her displeasure.

“All I’m hearing on TV is that because I’m a white conservative woman, I’m a racist, a white supremacist and a neo-Nazi,” she said. “Somebody besides me has to be sick of this.”

The crowd booed, but McCaskill wasn’t here to go head-to-head with Trump supporters. She was here to try to win them over.

“First of all, let me say,” McCaskill responded, her voice made tinny by the microphone, “I don’t think anybody in this room thinks you’re a racist. If you’re being stereotyped that way that’s just as unfair as stereotyping every black person as a terrorist for Black Lives Matter.”


Do not stereotype, study and be critical with the numbers, find what really tick the voters, Trump voters' votes are winnable.

* changed from R to trump
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 10:36:21 AM by anisotropy »

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1655
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #231 on: August 08, 2018, 10:18:31 AM »
Again, with the right candidate and right strategy, Trump voters' votes are winnable.

Would the right strategy involve running against a child molester? Just curious since there seems to be no doubt that had Moore not been a child molester, he would have easily won. I can't believe how many people still voted for that POS.

The flip side of attributing the win to the scandals reinforces the argument that not all R voters are racists and sexists, otherwise they would have voted for moore regardless. Compare the votes Sessions got in 2008 to what moore got in 2017 (even though the margins stayed ~constant for 2008 ad 2016 pres. elec.), not all R voters are racists and sexists.

Sure and I don't think anyone would ever peg all Republicans in that light. Jones narrowly eeked out a victory. 650K people still voted for a child molester. That's really sad. This is a good break down of how folks voted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/alabama-exit-polls/?utm_term=.327ce371ec51

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #232 on: August 08, 2018, 10:21:56 AM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #233 on: August 08, 2018, 10:42:20 AM »
Again, with the right candidate and right strategy, Trump voters' votes are winnable.

Would the right strategy involve running against a child molester? Just curious since there seems to be no doubt that had Moore not been a child molester, he would have easily won. I can't believe how many people still voted for that POS.

The flip side of attributing the win to the scandals reinforces the argument that not all R voters are racists and sexists, otherwise they would have voted for moore regardless. Compare the votes Sessions got in 2008 to what moore got in 2017 (even though the margins stayed ~constant for 2008 ad 2016 pres. elec.), not all R voters are racists and sexists.

Sure and I don't think anyone would ever peg all Republicans in that light. Jones narrowly eeked out a victory. 650K people still voted for a child molester. That's really sad. This is a good break down of how folks voted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/alabama-exit-polls/?utm_term=.327ce371ec51

sorry I made a typo, meant to say Trump voters instead of R, fixed it now. And yes, the ones that voted for moore regardless could be the group that included racists and sexist, it's entirely possible. also note the really low turn out, many historically R voters stayed home in the end instead of supporting moore against their "values".

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #234 on: August 08, 2018, 10:52:27 AM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.


I agree individual actions within the (red/blue) state doesn't matter as much simply because how elections work. But in these places where voters watch primarily fox news and are conservative leaning, a more moderate approach is needed to win their votes. As Lamb and McCaskill have shown, if your actions can convince the voters that you don't see them as racists/sexists/w.e. they can get onboard electing some of the more palatable politicians.

Granted this approach will be more difficult on the national stage, but I think it can still succeed.

Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Age: 90
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #235 on: August 08, 2018, 10:53:03 AM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

Just want to take a moment to enlighten the left on how Trump was elected since most still dont have a clue and this will impede their efforts to take back control of government. Addressing your bolded statement above, at least for my individual case (and there are MANY more like me):  I'm a Trump voter, I have never been a Republican and probably never will be one, I never watch or listen to FOX news, Infowars, etc, I rarely ever use Facebook, I am highly educated (PhD), am not even the slightest bit racist (am in an inter-racial marriage), and am very well read in politics, international affairs, economics.

I dont listen to what Trump SAYS, he's off the rails with regard to language. I watch what he DOES (this is good advice for any politician or person for that matter). And watching what Trump DOES, I have zero regrets in my vote, I am deeply satisfied with it. Does that mean I approve of everything he does? Certainly not. But I stand by my choice. And to reiterate, there are many more out there like me. Until the left stops demonizing/identifying Trump voters as all dumb racists fux, they will get nowhere.

Just my 2 cents.

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #236 on: August 08, 2018, 12:07:19 PM »
Don't sell yourself short, dude.  I wouldn't say there are many like you. There aren't that many Phds in the US (less than 5% of the population?), and I believe that the majority of them vote for Democrats. You are a low incidence voter profile, so I'm not sure a campaign strategy focused on advanced degree holders who don't watch Fox news and who don't take anything the President says seriously will have a big impact.   

Something is resonating with highly educated voters to turn them away from Trump relative to other candidates.  That isn't resonating with you in particular, but it is having an impact on other voters.  His support is bleeding from educated women more quickly than other groups.  The problem is that there just aren't that many of them relative to the absolute juggernaut of support Trump has with no college white men.  They love Trump.  They also do love what he says and watch Fox and Info Wars.

 

YttriumNitrate

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 342
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #237 on: August 08, 2018, 12:28:35 PM »
Don't sell yourself short, dude.  I wouldn't say there are many like you. There aren't that many Phds in the US (less than 5% of the population?), and I believe that the majority of them vote for Democrats. You are a low incidence voter profile, so I'm not sure a campaign strategy focused on advanced degree holders who don't watch Fox news and who don't take anything the President says seriously will have a big impact.

Don't underestimate people's ability and willingness to separate a politician's policies from their words and personal actions. I'll just throw this one out there:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/4609/presidential-job-approval-bill-clintons-high-ratings-midst.aspx

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1752
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #238 on: August 08, 2018, 12:54:52 PM »
Don't sell yourself short, dude.  I wouldn't say there are many like you. There aren't that many Phds in the US (less than 5% of the population?), and I believe that the majority of them vote for Democrats. You are a low incidence voter profile, so I'm not sure a campaign strategy focused on advanced degree holders who don't watch Fox news and who don't take anything the President says seriously will have a big impact.   



I think ~12% of the population has some sort of advanced degrees.  Of people with post-Bachelor higher ed experience (doesn't necessarily mean actually finishing a post-bachelor degree), 63% identified or leaned Dem in 2017.  ETA...however, I'm not sure that means that atypical voters such as this are not worth targeting.  Independent voters seem to dominate headlines every election and do seem to swing results sometimes.  Not as much as mobilizing base voters does, usually, but those votes can matter.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:59:16 PM by wenchsenior »

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2908
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #239 on: August 08, 2018, 12:56:32 PM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

Just want to take a moment to enlighten the left on how Trump was elected since most still dont have a clue and this will impede their efforts to take back control of government. Addressing your bolded statement above, at least for my individual case (and there are MANY more like me):  I'm a Trump voter, I have never been a Republican and probably never will be one, I never watch or listen to FOX news, Infowars, etc, I rarely ever use Facebook, I am highly educated (PhD), am not even the slightest bit racist (am in an inter-racial marriage), and am very well read in politics, international affairs, economics.

I dont listen to what Trump SAYS, he's off the rails with regard to language. I watch what he DOES (this is good advice for any politician or person for that matter). And watching what Trump DOES, I have zero regrets in my vote, I am deeply satisfied with it. Does that mean I approve of everything he does? Certainly not. But I stand by my choice. And to reiterate, there are many more out there like me. Until the left stops demonizing/identifying Trump voters as all dumb racists fux, they will get nowhere.

Just my 2 cents.

This is interesting. While I cant stand Trump most of the time and didnt vote for him, I usually dont mind what he is doing.

What you say goes with that wisdom I heard in the 2016 election: Trump supporters do not take him literally but they take him seriously. The anti-Trump people take him literally but not seriously.

I think there is real wisdom in that which points out a great divide.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:01:25 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2908
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #240 on: August 08, 2018, 12:59:35 PM »
Don't sell yourself short, dude.  I wouldn't say there are many like you. There aren't that many Phds in the US (less than 5% of the population?), and I believe that the majority of them vote for Democrats. You are a low incidence voter profile, so I'm not sure a campaign strategy focused on advanced degree holders who don't watch Fox news and who don't take anything the President says seriously will have a big impact.   

Something is resonating with highly educated voters to turn them away from Trump relative to other candidates.  That isn't resonating with you in particular, but it is having an impact on other voters.  His support is bleeding from educated women more quickly than other groups.  The problem is that there just aren't that many of them relative to the absolute juggernaut of support Trump has with no college white men.  They love Trump.  They also do love what he says and watch Fox and Info Wars.
One of my female friends who is a strong Trump supporter has a doctorate from an Ivy, and in a hard science. My other Trump ,loving friend is really smart and college educated, of course.  Both of them have IQS well above mine.

They do watch Fox News, tho.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:01:59 PM by iris lily »

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #241 on: August 08, 2018, 03:38:34 PM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

Just want to take a moment to enlighten the left on how Trump was elected since most still dont have a clue and this will impede their efforts to take back control of government. Addressing your bolded statement above, at least for my individual case (and there are MANY more like me):  I'm a Trump voter, I have never been a Republican and probably never will be one, I never watch or listen to FOX news, Infowars, etc, I rarely ever use Facebook, I am highly educated (PhD), am not even the slightest bit racist (am in an inter-racial marriage), and am very well read in politics, international affairs, economics.

I dont listen to what Trump SAYS, he's off the rails with regard to language. I watch what he DOES (this is good advice for any politician or person for that matter). And watching what Trump DOES, I have zero regrets in my vote, I am deeply satisfied with it. Does that mean I approve of everything he does? Certainly not. But I stand by my choice. And to reiterate, there are many more out there like me. Until the left stops demonizing/identifying Trump voters as all dumb racists fux, they will get nowhere.

Just my 2 cents.

On second thought, are you really a persuadable voter?  If all of us agreed en masse to nod respectfully while you explained your total satisfaction with Trump and repeatedly pointed out how not racist and extremely smart you are, would that have any impact on your voting habits?  "deeply satisfied" is about as full-throated support for Trump I've seen here.  If you are deeply satisfied, he's doing what you want, and your voting has nothing to do with how the opposition acts.  So, the only thing that impacts you is the unpleasant social pressure from your fellow smart and not racist peers. 

Why doesn't anyone ever demand that Trump supporters stop stereotyping us?  Maybe we'd vote for Trump if his supporters stopped calling us snowflakes or thugs.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #242 on: August 08, 2018, 04:32:16 PM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

Just want to take a moment to enlighten the left on how Trump was elected since most still dont have a clue and this will impede their efforts to take back control of government. Addressing your bolded statement above, at least for my individual case (and there are MANY more like me):  I'm a Trump voter, I have never been a Republican and probably never will be one, I never watch or listen to FOX news, Infowars, etc, I rarely ever use Facebook, I am highly educated (PhD), am not even the slightest bit racist (am in an inter-racial marriage), and am very well read in politics, international affairs, economics.

I dont listen to what Trump SAYS, he's off the rails with regard to language. I watch what he DOES (this is good advice for any politician or person for that matter). And watching what Trump DOES, I have zero regrets in my vote, I am deeply satisfied with it. Does that mean I approve of everything he does? Certainly not. But I stand by my choice. And to reiterate, there are many more out there like me. Until the left stops demonizing/identifying Trump voters as all dumb racists fux, they will get nowhere.

Just my 2 cents.

I’m finding it amusing you called me “the left”. I’m very center, but lean a tiny bit left. I hate what Trunp SAYS, but I also don’t like what he DOES, and pretty much everyone I know who dislikes him also has a very concrete reason that just tends to include what he says as a side issue. You (can I call you “the right”?) might want to really talk to people about this instead of looking at the news, which is definitely way too focused on Trump’s words.

The number one reason I didn’t vote for the guy was because I (correctly) feared he’d put our standing on the world stage in the toilet. If you give up your seat at the table and make everyone hate you, it’s super hard to win it back, if you even can. I think Americans are very arrogant when thinking about their unquestioned importance. The king can always be dethroned, especially if he turns his back on everyone else.

As a military family (hey, a military family who votes blue? ?! See, stereotypes again - many of us are less conservative then people think), this is a massive concern. My community has bled over and over again in stupid wars Republicans started and most of the country has decided to forget. I don’t want any more started because our president is a total moron when dealing with other countries.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 04:35:49 PM by TrudgingAlong »

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #243 on: August 08, 2018, 04:55:33 PM »
Intellectually, I understand that liberals shouldn't be badmouthing Trump voters because it's unpersuasive and ineffective, but to the Trump voters in this thread, try to understand the liberal perspective: there's a horse loose in the hospital!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6CwhvzqLYA

As a liberal voter, I disagree with this analogy.

Edit: To clarify, I understand the analogy and I agree it is useful to understand the mindset of some voters. I just disagree with it being put forward as representing the perspective of liberal voters uniformly.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 05:27:09 PM by maizeman »

Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Age: 90
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #244 on: August 08, 2018, 06:40:15 PM »
Don't sell yourself short, dude.  I wouldn't say there are many like you. There aren't that many Phds in the US (less than 5% of the population?), and I believe that the majority of them vote for Democrats. You are a low incidence voter profile, so I'm not sure a campaign strategy focused on advanced degree holders who don't watch Fox news and who don't take anything the President says seriously will have a big impact.   

Something is resonating with highly educated voters to turn them away from Trump relative to other candidates.  That isn't resonating with you in particular, but it is having an impact on other voters.  His support is bleeding from educated women more quickly than other groups.  The problem is that there just aren't that many of them relative to the absolute juggernaut of support Trump has with no college white men.  They love Trump.  They also do love what he says and watch Fox and Info Wars.

Wexler, I agree with you that I dont represent the bulk of the electorate. I'm not the average Trump voter. But I disagree with you that there aren't "many more like me" out there. It only takes a small fraction to push a swing state in either direction as we have seen time and time again. I really do personally know many other educated, racially unbiased folks like myself who support Trump, that includes those of Caucasian, Asian, Afro-American, Latino, and Carribean persuasions. If the left doesn't want to listen to us, fine, it won't be our loss. As a reasonable person, I am open to persuasion; I am not so deeply "entrenched" that my vote cannot be impacted through discourse, new information, and otherwise. But the left calling us stupid rednecks is not that path (e.g. was born and raised in the heart of NYC). This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, I am merely commenting on what I generally see and hear from the anti-Trumpists, so please don't take any of this personally.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 06:41:49 PM by Laserjet3051 »

Laserjet3051

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Age: 90
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #245 on: August 08, 2018, 06:46:13 PM »
Here’s another point: ultimately, what we say here on the forum doesn’t matter. What candidates say doesn’t matter if all Trump voters do is watch Fox News or get their sources from Facebook shares. I mean, I really do get on some level what you’re saying. It’s not like I can really make or break an election, though, living in a blue state (nor am I even a dem haha). Candidates in town halls, like your example, may make a difference IF Trump voters show up. Better public speeches and televised debates, most likely yes.

For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

Just want to take a moment to enlighten the left on how Trump was elected since most still dont have a clue and this will impede their efforts to take back control of government. Addressing your bolded statement above, at least for my individual case (and there are MANY more like me):  I'm a Trump voter, I have never been a Republican and probably never will be one, I never watch or listen to FOX news, Infowars, etc, I rarely ever use Facebook, I am highly educated (PhD), am not even the slightest bit racist (am in an inter-racial marriage), and am very well read in politics, international affairs, economics.

I dont listen to what Trump SAYS, he's off the rails with regard to language. I watch what he DOES (this is good advice for any politician or person for that matter). And watching what Trump DOES, I have zero regrets in my vote, I am deeply satisfied with it. Does that mean I approve of everything he does? Certainly not. But I stand by my choice. And to reiterate, there are many more out there like me. Until the left stops demonizing/identifying Trump voters as all dumb racists fux, they will get nowhere.

Just my 2 cents.

On second thought, are you really a persuadable voter?  If all of us agreed en masse to nod respectfully while you explained your total satisfaction with Trump and repeatedly pointed out how not racist and extremely smart you are, would that have any impact on your voting habits?  "deeply satisfied" is about as full-throated support for Trump I've seen here.  If you are deeply satisfied, he's doing what you want, and your voting has nothing to do with how the opposition acts.  So, the only thing that impacts you is the unpleasant social pressure from your fellow smart and not racist peers. 

Why doesn't anyone ever demand that Trump supporters stop stereotyping us?  Maybe we'd vote for Trump if his supporters stopped calling us snowflakes or thugs.

As indicated above, I am not totally satisfied with Trump; hell, no politician has ever delivered in totality, come on man!

You should not vote for a President just because someone stops calling you names (e.g. snowflake/thug). It sounds like a bad voting strategy, but I am assuming you said it tongue in cheek.

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #246 on: August 08, 2018, 09:24:40 PM »
Why doesn't anyone ever demand that Trump supporters stop stereotyping us?  Maybe we'd vote for Trump if his supporters stopped calling us snowflakes or thugs.

A) I don't want you, or anyone else, to vote for Trump.
B) I don't think it would do any good.
C) I don't doubt that there are Republican strategists who are indeed trying to come up with ways to get the crazy fringe of the republican party to just shut up and/or gaming out strategies for how they could actively disavow those fringe groups in ways that would be convincing to middle of the road voters but not get them eaten alive by that same radical fringe.

The democratic party has the advantage of not having a president of our party in power who either actively supports or at least winks at racism and tribalism. Which should make it easier to disavow our own fringe, and easier to avoid falling into the trap of saying we don't even want the votes of anyone who didn't already vote for us in an election that we lost.

Quote
For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

I'm happy to hear that first sentence. FWIW your restraint is not a characteristic which is universally shared by those who advocate these views.

However, you do realize the internet is a public forum, don't you? As a result, some of the voters we're talking about -- potentially from swing states -- are reading these posts and it may be influencing their perception of whether they'll have a chance to being accepted if they end up supporting democratic candidates/causes in the future.

I certainly do understand the urge or need to vent. And over the past year and a half, I've been a sounding board for several people who needed to vent a lot of the same feelings it sounds like you are struggling with. But generally they did so in private one-on-one conversations, and after each of us had ascertained how the other had voted.

TrudgingAlong

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #247 on: August 09, 2018, 12:22:39 AM »
Why doesn't anyone ever demand that Trump supporters stop stereotyping us?  Maybe we'd vote for Trump if his supporters stopped calling us snowflakes or thugs.

A) I don't want you, or anyone else, to vote for Trump.
B) I don't think it would do any good.
C) I don't doubt that there are Republican strategists who are indeed trying to come up with ways to get the crazy fringe of the republican party to just shut up and/or gaming out strategies for how they could actively disavow those fringe groups in ways that would be convincing to middle of the road voters but not get them eaten alive by that same radical fringe.

The democratic party has the advantage of not having a president of our party in power who either actively supports or at least winks at racism and tribalism. Which should make it easier to disavow our own fringe, and easier to avoid falling into the trap of saying we don't even want the votes of anyone who didn't already vote for us in an election that we lost.

Quote
For the record, I don’t spend basically any of my time canvassing my neighbors or telling them they are racists for voting Trump. It kind of feels like this is what some of you think of us who vent frustration in an Internet forum... I keep my thoughts to myself. Even my friend, who I used to think highly of before really sitting down and trying to understand her reasons (shocked me quite a bit), I keep silent. I still hold out hope she’ll come around. She, though, voted Trump in a blue state. Her vote counts about as much as mine.

I'm happy to hear that first sentence. FWIW your restraint is not a characteristic which is universally shared by those who advocate these views.

However, you do realize the internet is a public forum, don't you? As a result, some of the voters we're talking about -- potentially from swing states -- are reading these posts and it may be influencing their perception of whether they'll have a chance to being accepted if they end up supporting democratic candidates/causes in the future.

I certainly do understand the urge or need to vent. And over the past year and a half, I've been a sounding board for several people who needed to vent a lot of the same feelings it sounds like you are struggling with. But generally they did so in private one-on-one conversations, and after each of us had ascertained how the other had voted.

Of course this is the internet. It’s not social media, however, where most of the political influence is made. I’m really not worried. 

maizeman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2817
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #248 on: August 09, 2018, 07:07:45 AM »
Of course this is the internet. It’s not social media, however, where most of the political influence is made.

I realize we are rapidly approaching a conversational impasse (if we're not there already), but I am curious about the reasoning and/or evidence that lead you to the above conclusion.

Also what are the significant qualitative differences you see between an internet forum (like this one) and social media?

Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #249 on: August 09, 2018, 07:33:46 AM »

You should not vote for a President just because someone stops calling you names (e.g. snowflake/thug). It sounds like a bad voting strategy, but I am assuming you said it tongue in cheek.

I did, and you kind of made my point for me.  No one votes for someone because of name calling by opposition supporters. It may be annoying and slightly hurtful that the kind of people you are surrounded by (just hazarding a guess-you are a PhD in an interracial relationship) think Trump is a racist dickhead and don't think too highly of his voters either.  But you aren't going to Trump Harder in response.  You are already Trumping about as hard as you can.  I misquoted you as saying you were totally satisfied, but you did say that you were "deeply satisfied" with your vote.  That's pretty epic support.  I think you'll find most people in these parts are like "eh-he sucks BUT HILLARY" as the highest level of support. 

Anecdata: I followed maizeman's advice for years. I was silent during the Bush years when people were busy measuring spots on Mt. Rushmore for him and shitting on democrats for daring to protest the war.  I was patient and kind when I explained my ideas in favorable conditions.  I listened to those same people who were "just asking" about whether Obama was born in the US. I patiently explained why those theories were untrue.  What did it get me?  Jack shit.  Those same people proudly voted for Trump.  Guess what?  Now I call them out, make fun of Trump's idiotic mistakes, and generally don't pull any punches.  And you know what?  Those people are silent now.  But they aren't my audience.  My audience is the people around them who don't want the shame of being a Trump voter to stick to them.  Because the more shameful it is, the harder it is to capture the social movement and excitement that lead to Trump in the first place.  If it's embarrassing to say you were at a Trump rally, maybe you won't go.  If talking about voting for Trump is just going to get you endless grief, you'll stop talking about it.  How did I learn this strategy?  From the Bernie Bros who jumped down the throats of Hillary voters to the point where they had to gather in private social media groups.  It's effective.  It kills excitement and that sense of in-group belonging that Trump used to great effect. 

We are on the same team, and we are just kicking around strategy at this point on how to get Trump out of office.  My strategy will work on some voters, patient and kindness will work on others.  But every time I hear about some poor Trumper who can't get a date, I think about all the dudes reading that article and thinking "shit-if I vote for Trump, I'm never going to get laid".  That's motivation right there.