Author Topic: Why Progressives Elected Trump  (Read 10477 times)

Dabnasty

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Why Progressives Elected Trump
« on: July 20, 2018, 07:44:02 AM »
Taken from So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...


Can you give some examples

No. This is a thread about The Trump Show, I don't want to derail it, so perhaps in another thread. That being said, the mods have publicly stated many times they follow the post modern interpretation of the Popper quote, with an emphasis on "civility" (subject to mods' personal preferences). I don't suffer fools well, especially when the data/studies support my unpopular conclusions. We both remember what happened the last time. ya?

This is their house and the mods make the rules, nothing wrong with that. Rules (and laws) are meant to keep/promote order, a well known secret (I recall you being a lawyer) but somehow not apparent to the general public.

I agree we see irrationality a lot with the right wing crowd these days, but it's mostly because their flag bearer is drawing much attention. Does anyone still remember what happened to Lindsay Shepherd? BS like that happens just as much on the left, or at least enough that Shepherd knew she had better record the meeting. Anyone remember/know about this guy? The list goes on and on.

We've simply looked another way because they are our natural allies against Trump, even though they spawned from the same seed. Keep it up, and we will never be rid of the likes of Trump.

Too much rhetoric? I am as much of a stable genius as the 45th, but at least I recognize I am close to 100% douche.

Now, let's return our focus on speculating about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

Edit: Attempt to get it back on track. Trump not thrilled about the rate hikes!

As was mentioned in the other thread Lindsay Shepherd was a Canadian at a Canadian University. It sounds like the professors may very well have been out of line.

"Barrett Wilson" and the people who do what he does are a real problem. These people are not a fair representation of progressivism. They are short sited and in many cases are attacking people online for the rush and the attention, not because they believe in the cause (which they may, but it's not their primary incentive). Mob mentality is dangerous no matter whether the goal is righteous or not.

Your intitial claim was that
Quote
the Progressives are just as responsible in electing Trump as voters who actually voted for him.
To point out that a few irrational people have taken things too far does not suggest to me that "progressives" are equally responsible for Donald Trump's election. Certainly there is a lot of blame to go around but there are some parties more responsible than others.

You mention that data supports your conclusion, but aside from the blame you cast on progressives, I'm not really sure what your conclusions are. Can you elaborate?

GuitarStv

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 08:10:21 AM »
Lindsay Shepherd was unfairly treated by Laurier University.  The university held an independent investigation into the matter that cleared her of all charges, and both the head of the university (as well as the professor) issued public apologies.  This incident got a lot of press because of how unusual it is, not because it's the norm.

The university screwed up by not following their own procedure properly . . . then admitted publicly that they screwed up.  Lindsay Shepherd was not silenced, the system worked to clear her public name.  Shepherd is currently suing the University for damages (and will likely win), and has received multiple awards and accolades related to free speech from various organizations since the incident.

I'm not entirely sure that there's much controversy to get excited about here.

jrhampt

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 08:35:56 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 08:53:04 AM »
The "Barret Wilson" article has the smell of inauthenticity. It's just too pat.

That said, I've been involved in discussions where some just-graduated racial studies major is literally calling local elected politicians (including minorities) KKK members if they don't agree with their proclamations. When pushed as to proof of Klan membership, they twist words and dance around the issue. Meanwhile, his/her numerous toadies are posting "+1" and "Oh yeah!" -- effectively, a virtual mob where any discussion is shouted down and/or ignored.

However, that in no way changed someone's mind in Alabama and "forced" them to vote for Roy Moore. Or are these voters voting because of spite? "Those damn liberals! I'm going to vote for the perv just to make them mad!"

To put it another way, did PC gone awry* make them angry enough to vote for Trump, or are they angry that they've been left behind by the post-manufacturing era?



* Related, are they angry because disparaging minorities or women isn't tolerated anymore? "Whenever I talk about pussy grabbing, some damn feminist tells me I'm sexist!"

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 09:14:03 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

Agree, and I'll add that I know many of them who just didn't vote. Often, because they assumed that Hillary would win handily without their vote, and they preferred Bernie Sanders. I know several people like this, and most of them admit that they would have been elbowing their way to the poll line had they known Trump would win. On the other hand, all of the conservatives I know, many of whom claimed to despise Trump until he became the Republican candidate fell in line and voted for him in the end, despite their initial misgivings. I think conservatives are more likely than progressives to view voting as a social duty, so they turn out to support the 'pubs even when they personally dislike the candidates. Liberals have a huge turnout problem when they aren't super-excited about the candidates.

omachi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 09:44:36 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.
Ugh, I'm going to wade into a politics post against my better judgment. Stop attacking people that participate in our democratic process. The position that somebody should vote how you want them to for a candidate they dislike a bit less than another, rather than the candidate of their choosing is abhorrent. There are plenty of other just targets for your anger.

If you want to rail against people that didn't want to see Trump in office but didn't show up and cast a vote, great. Want to lambaste the people who couldn't be bothered to get informed and just didn't vote, but now whine it's harming them, hell yes. If you want to attack our stupid first past the post voting system that means voting for your first choice also means not having your preference for second versus third choice recognized, I'm right there with you. Want to call the electoral college an anachronism and heap disdain on it, why not? But attacking somebody for participating, that's weak.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 09:57:08 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

I think that there's probably a reasonable argument that the "deplorables" comment could have turned 80k votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Especially because it seems like the tactic of the far left is to quickly label people Nazi's or <fill in the blnak>ists for not completely buying completely into any facet of the dogma.

jrhampt

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 09:58:33 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.
Ugh, I'm going to wade into a politics post against my better judgment. Stop attacking people that participate in our democratic process. The position that somebody should vote how you want them to for a candidate they dislike a bit less than another, rather than the candidate of their choosing is abhorrent. There are plenty of other just targets for your anger.

If you want to rail against people that didn't want to see Trump in office but didn't show up and cast a vote, great. Want to lambaste the people who couldn't be bothered to get informed and just didn't vote, but now whine it's harming them, hell yes. If you want to attack our stupid first past the post voting system that means voting for your first choice also means not having your preference for second versus third choice recognized, I'm right there with you. Want to call the electoral college an anachronism and heap disdain on it, why not? But attacking somebody for participating, that's weak.

I’ve voted third party before (Nader in Bush v Gore, actually), and I don’t believe I was attacking these people by observing that they helped elect Trump because that is, in fact, what they did.  I helped elect Bush.

bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 10:02:57 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

I think that there's probably a reasonable argument that the "deplorables" comment could have turned 80k votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Especially because it seems like the tactic of the far left is to quickly label people Nazi's or <fill in the blnak>ists for not completely buying completely into any facet of the dogma.

And the tactic of the far right is to quickly label people "Social Justice Warriors" or <fill in the blank>ists for not completely buying completely into any facet of the dogma.

Back to the discussion. Was that the final straw? Or was that the only action taken by the "far left" that caused voters to vote for the Republicans, possibly against their own interests (anti-union)?

Of course, we have to remember that this was more of a enthusiasm problem with Clinton rather than a rising of support for Trump. Romney did better than Trump in a lot of districts.

Wexler

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2018, 10:12:30 AM »
Blame for Trump in order of most blame to least:

1. Trump himself and his parents for creating/being one of the worst Americans of our time

2. The people who voted for Trump

3. The people who didn't bother to vote

4. People who voted third party in a swing state-sorry, but you get some blame.  We vote in the system we have, not the one we wish we had.  First past the post means you know full well that you aren't getting President Jill Stein.  You vote for the best of the major party candidates and agitate on your free time to get Green or Libertarian candidates elected in local elections to actually build the party if it was so important to you.  On the plus side, you are still a better voter than groups 1-3 above.  So you are in the top 66 million people in the US.

5. People who voted third party in a red or blue state-you mostly get a pass. Also, you get demerits if you don't vote in midterms.

6. People who voted for Hillary but spent the entire election season spreading information about how she is the devil with cankles.  And probably killed people.  And rigged the primaries.

This is my list, and I'm sticking to it. I accept no blame for Trump.

jrhampt

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2018, 10:25:46 AM »
^^^

I think this is a fair list.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2018, 10:28:11 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

I think that there's probably a reasonable argument that the "deplorables" comment could have turned 80k votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Especially because it seems like the tactic of the far left is to quickly label people Nazi's or <fill in the blnak>ists for not completely buying completely into any facet of the dogma.

And the tactic of the far right is to quickly label people "Social Justice Warriors" or <fill in the blank>ists for not completely buying completely into any facet of the dogma.

Back to the discussion. Was that the final straw? Or was that the only action taken by the "far left" that caused voters to vote for the Republicans, possibly against their own interests (anti-union)?

Of course, we have to remember that this was more of a enthusiasm problem with Clinton rather than a rising of support for Trump. Romney did better than Trump in a lot of districts.

Yep. And I hope that the republicans move back to the center to. But, I think it's less likely to have changes like that in the party that's in power.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "final straw". I think it's more like the sum total of everyone telling everyone how crappy things are and then both sides treating each-other as sub-human for disagreeing about how to solve complex problems that probably require nuance, compassion, and genuinely open conversation between sides to fix. And even if that's not the root cause of the problem, I think it's pretty clear that it's the right direction for the solution.

"more of a enthusiasm problem with Clinton rather than a rising of support for Trump"

This is definitely true (and not just for Clinton). Apparently ~ 47% of people chose not to vote instead of choosing between Clinton (25.6%) and Trump (25.5%). I think that's a pretty clear indication that something's broken (above and beyond that fact that the US elected a bad POTUS).

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a8265143/almost-half-eligible-voters-did-not-vote-election-2016/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:41:15 AM by NorthernBlitz »

Kris

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2018, 10:34:43 AM »
Blame for Trump in order of most blame to least:

1. Trump himself and his parents for creating/being one of the worst Americans of our time

2. The people who voted for Trump

3. The people who didn't bother to vote

4. People who voted third party in a swing state-sorry, but you get some blame.  We vote in the system we have, not the one we wish we had.  First past the post means you know full well that you aren't getting President Jill Stein.  You vote for the best of the major party candidates and agitate on your free time to get Green or Libertarian candidates elected in local elections to actually build the party if it was so important to you.  On the plus side, you are still a better voter than groups 1-3 above.  So you are in the top 66 million people in the US.

5. People who voted third party in a red or blue state-you mostly get a pass. Also, you get demerits if you don't vote in midterms.

6. People who voted for Hillary but spent the entire election season spreading information about how she is the devil with cankles.  And probably killed people.  And rigged the primaries.

This is my list, and I'm sticking to it. I accept no blame for Trump.

I'd throw the mainstream media into this pile somewhere, too, for making it all about the 24 hour Trump circus, including echoing every single thing he said about Hillary over and over, and basically never focusing on any actual campaign issues/platform, anything.

Samuel

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2018, 10:47:57 AM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

Agree, and I'll add that I know many of them who just didn't vote. Often, because they assumed that Hillary would win handily without their vote, and they preferred Bernie Sanders. I know several people like this, and most of them admit that they would have been elbowing their way to the poll line had they known Trump would win. On the other hand, all of the conservatives I know, many of whom claimed to despise Trump until he became the Republican candidate fell in line and voted for him in the end, despite their initial misgivings. I think conservatives are more likely than progressives to view voting as a social duty, so they turn out to support the 'pubs even when they personally dislike the candidates. Liberals have a huge turnout problem when they aren't super-excited about the candidates.

I think this is an important piece of the puzzle, the complacency on the left around Hillary's lead going into the final days of the election. The day before the election the Huffington Post's "poll data" gave Hillary a 98% chance of winning (while FiveThirtyEight was giving her a 64% chance). If you were a bruised Bernie supporter, left leaning libertarian, or just unenthusiastic about Hillary and getting your information from left wing sources you could convince yourself she was going to win anyways so why give up your moral high ground (of not voting for her) for nothing? Whoops.

I think the coalitions on the left are much more fickle and fragile than on the right partially because they generally are  less willing to hold their nose and vote strategically for imperfect candidates. Essentially valuing the protection of their electoral virtue over winning elections.

Said as a discouraged (mostly) liberal tired of seeing our government skew more conservative than the general population.

 

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2018, 10:53:14 AM »
@Dabnasty

Morning,

I didn't misquote the handle, I was actually quoting GuitarStv, a quick click on the link in the post would have cleared that up easily.

Can you give some examples of people opposed to Trump who blatantly lied / mislead people as often and thoroughly as the Trump administration did?

The data/studies I mentioned in the post was referring to a previous discussion I was involved in, not the current one.

But since you invited me to this discussion... I will answer it, give me sometime to write a semi-coherent reply. thanks.

Dabnasty

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 11:38:50 AM »
Blame for Trump in order of most blame to least:

1. Trump himself and his parents for creating/being one of the worst Americans of our time

2. The people who voted for Trump

3. The people who didn't bother to vote

4. People who voted third party in a swing state-sorry, but you get some blame.  We vote in the system we have, not the one we wish we had.  First past the post means you know full well that you aren't getting President Jill Stein.  You vote for the best of the major party candidates and agitate on your free time to get Green or Libertarian candidates elected in local elections to actually build the party if it was so important to you.  On the plus side, you are still a better voter than groups 1-3 above.  So you are in the top 66 million people in the US.

5. People who voted third party in a red or blue state-you mostly get a pass. Also, you get demerits if you don't vote in midterms.

6. People who voted for Hillary but spent the entire election season spreading information about how she is the devil with cankles.  And probably killed people.  And rigged the primaries.

This is my list, and I'm sticking to it. I accept no blame for Trump.

I'd throw the mainstream media into this pile somewhere, too, for making it all about the 24 hour Trump circus, including echoing every single thing he said about Hillary over and over, and basically never focusing on any actual campaign issues/platform, anything.

Absolutely. Trump ran on "any publicity is good publicity" and the media gave him about 80% of the coverage. Even when the story was about Hillary, it was about that thing Trump said about Hilary, or whatever other candidate.

I would also give a little credit to the types of people that anisotropy accused in the post that started this discussion. However I do not identify all progressives as behaving that way, not even close. The real mistake of being overly PC, is that you give a golden example to conservative media to point at and say "look what the world has come to". In other words, I don't blame the PC zealots directly, but rather their actions combined with media outlets more than willing to hold them up as representative of progressivism.

sui generis

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 12:29:38 PM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

Agree, and I'll add that I know many of them who just didn't vote. Often, because they assumed that Hillary would win handily without their vote, and they preferred Bernie Sanders. I know several people like this, and most of them admit that they would have been elbowing their way to the poll line had they known Trump would win. On the other hand, all of the conservatives I know, many of whom claimed to despise Trump until he became the Republican candidate fell in line and voted for him in the end, despite their initial misgivings. I think conservatives are more likely than progressives to view voting as a social duty, so they turn out to support the 'pubs even when they personally dislike the candidates. Liberals have a huge turnout problem when they aren't super-excited about the candidates.

I think this is an important piece of the puzzle, the complacency on the left around Hillary's lead going into the final days of the election. The day before the election the Huffington Post's "poll data" gave Hillary a 98% chance of winning (while FiveThirtyEight was giving her a 64% chance). If you were a bruised Bernie supporter, left leaning libertarian, or just unenthusiastic about Hillary and getting your information from left wing sources you could convince yourself she was going to win anyways so why give up your moral high ground (of not voting for her) for nothing? Whoops.

I think the coalitions on the left are much more fickle and fragile than on the right partially because they generally are  less willing to hold their nose and vote strategically for imperfect candidates. Essentially valuing the protection of their electoral virtue over winning elections.

Said as a discouraged (mostly) liberal tired of seeing our government skew more conservative than the general population.

This is a well-known phenomenon as characterized by the increasingly-popular (though something I've heard from at least... a decade? ago) phrase "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."  The fact that we have to make our fellow dems/liberals/progressives fall in love and be enthusiastic really bothers me as a principal.  And it makes me worry, because having to fall in love (and for some, they seem almost proud of it, like the claims that Hillary just didn't excite them and that's her fault) means they are more prey to charlatans and demagogues.  Yeah, the Republicans are the ones that handed us the biggest demagogue so far (and there are plenty of them that fell in love, then the rest of the good Rs fell in line with them), but our side is really at risk of that, too, I think.

Fireball

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 02:42:18 PM »
I do agree that some progressives helped elect trump...but probably not in the sense that poster meant.  There were some progressives who fell for the (in some cases Russian-propaganda-driven) lie that both parties are the same and Hillary was just as bad as Trump, and voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.  I bump into a lot of these people at political events and they seem to retain this stance unapologetically.  Even after the last 18 months.

Agree, and I'll add that I know many of them who just didn't vote. Often, because they assumed that Hillary would win handily without their vote, and they preferred Bernie Sanders. I know several people like this, and most of them admit that they would have been elbowing their way to the poll line had they known Trump would win. On the other hand, all of the conservatives I know, many of whom claimed to despise Trump until he became the Republican candidate fell in line and voted for him in the end, despite their initial misgivings. I think conservatives are more likely than progressives to view voting as a social duty, so they turn out to support the 'pubs even when they personally dislike the candidates. Liberals have a huge turnout problem when they aren't super-excited about the candidates.

I think this is an important piece of the puzzle, the complacency on the left around Hillary's lead going into the final days of the election. The day before the election the Huffington Post's "poll data" gave Hillary a 98% chance of winning (while FiveThirtyEight was giving her a 64% chance). If you were a bruised Bernie supporter, left leaning libertarian, or just unenthusiastic about Hillary and getting your information from left wing sources you could convince yourself she was going to win anyways so why give up your moral high ground (of not voting for her) for nothing? Whoops.

I think the coalitions on the left are much more fickle and fragile than on the right partially because they generally are  less willing to hold their nose and vote strategically for imperfect candidates. Essentially valuing the protection of their electoral virtue over winning elections.

Said as a discouraged (mostly) liberal tired of seeing our government skew more conservative than the general population.

This is a well-known phenomenon as characterized by the increasingly-popular (though something I've heard from at least... a decade? ago) phrase "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."  The fact that we have to make our fellow dems/liberals/progressives fall in love and be enthusiastic really bothers me as a principal.  And it makes me worry, because having to fall in love (and for some, they seem almost proud of it, like the claims that Hillary just didn't excite them and that's her fault) means they are more prey to charlatans and demagogues.  Yeah, the Republicans are the ones that handed us the biggest demagogue so far (and there are plenty of them that fell in love, then the rest of the good Rs fell in line with them), but our side is really at risk of that, too, I think.

Yes.  Bill Maher said something the other night along the lines of "Democrats vote for the candidate in the election, Republicans for the consequences of the election."  Many conservatives say how much Trump makes them sick, he's a horrible President, etc, but voted for him in 2016 (and will again in 2020) due to the Supreme Court. Everything else can be overlooked.




anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 09:42:28 PM »
How the Progressives helped Trump win

Preface:
I was originally going to write entire reply myself but it proved impossible as smarter people already wrote about it much better than I ever could. Instead, I lifted many passages from several articles, providing links (beginning of passages) to the originals where I can. For the purpose of internal coherency, I did not use quotation marks and did some editing. 
I am a centrist, the purpose of this post is to show how the Progressives aided Trump’s victory, so I will focus on the left. It is widely known to any reasonable person just how ridiculous Trump’s supporters generally are, so don’t accuse me of being a Trump supporter, bully, racist, sexist, MRA activist, etc, just because I choose not to waste time repeating what everyone already knows.

Abstract (TL;DR):
Trump and his supporters are known to rely heavily on alternative facts and bending the physical realities to suit their narratives. These behaviors are natural extension of strong postmodernism, which essentially states that there is no objective truth, only truth claims. I show that ironically, the radical Progressives that promote social justice also exhibit similar M.O (identity politics) and came from the same origin.  I also theorize how this behaviour ultimately resulted in Trump’s victory.

Content:
1.   Intro
2.   Brief overview of Post modernism
3.   Post modernism and Identity Politics
4.   Identity politics on the left today (Social Justice issues)
5.   Progressive "Missteps"
6.   What does any of these have to do with Trump’s victory

Intro
It is my belief that the current form of postmodernism presents a threat to democracy, and it has led to the rise of identity politics and the election of Trump.
Many here have questioned my claim  that the Progressives are just as responsible for Trump’s victory as the ones that actually voted for him, not recognizing that their M.O are one and the same, and both came from postmodernism movements.

Brief overview of Post Modernism (a poor attempt)
It is  generally accepted postmodernism today came from writings of Lyotard, Foucault, Derrida, and Lacan in the 60s. It was a product of its era and it was anti-authoritarian. Ironically, it retained the Marxist doctrine that “power relations and economic inequality determines social structures.” It rejected aspects of humanism, in particular the view of the self as the center of political resistance and embraced the view that all reality is shaped by language. This language, and by extension, reason itself, is a construct that serves the interest of powerful and dominant social groups.

The strongest version  of postmodernism is that there is no such thing as truth, because all perception of reality is mediated and perceived through discourse; there is no truth, only truth claims. Since there is nothing objective against which these claims can be measured, they all have the same standing.

I believe this strong postmodern view qualifies as being intolerant in Popper’s view, as it is impossible to have a rational discussion with someone like this; this postmodern view pretty much “denounces all arguments”.  These individuals are too far gone, we cannot argue with them, we cannot give them any reason that they believe they must even consider, much less accept. Sadly, it is being actively encouraged across the board, including here, which I will elaborate on later.

Postmodernism and identity politics
The strong postmodern view tends to take the form of an extreme social constructionism, a view that identities, relations, political positions are constructed entirely through interpretation, that there is no identifiable social reality against which interpretations can be judged, no ground in material or social reality that places any constraints on the formation of identities or perspectives.

Traditional leftists  might affirm racism is best understood as a systemically reproduced oppressive ideology, postmodernism would say that reason itself is a form of oppressive ideology. For postmodernists the rules for what counts as knowledge or what counts as valid argument are themselves social constructs which further entrench (perceived) oppression.

This eliminates  reason as an arbiter of disputes. If you are a postmodernist and someone challenges your moral and political beliefs, you just dismiss their critique on the grounds that reason itself is constructed by systems of power in a manner that marginalizes your view. What’s more, if you can’t show how this is the case through argument it poses you no problem–you can simply claim that the fact that you can’t show how you are marginalized through argument just underlines your claim that the rules of argument necessarily marginalize you. This means that once you have acquired postmodernism, whatever other political beliefs you may have become impossible to challenge through argument. No wonder it’s so popular among the un-learned.

The rise of postmodernism aided the rise of identity politics starting in the 60s, as we see the shift from reason and rational argument to personal experience and testimony, which forms the basics of identity politics: perspectives of social groups with which people identify.

Identity politics seeks to advance the interests of particular groups in society that are perceived as victims of social justice. The identity of the oppressed group gives rise to a political basis around which they can unite. Many feminists and gay activists became interested in the work of Foucault in the 70s, whose attention to the social construction of sexuality, view of power as dispersed through society, and insistence on the connection between power and knowledge, intersected with their own concerns. Foucault's work seemed to provide a theoretical ground for shifting the focus of radical analysis away from macrostructures such as the economy and the state, and toward daily life, ideology, social relations and culture. Foucault's view of state power as always repressive and his identification of resistance with the marginalized and suppressed made sense at a time when radical struggles were being led by groups peripheral to mainstream culture and power relations, such as disaffected youth and women, blacks and other racial minorities, gays and lesbians.

Today identity politics is wielded by both the right and left. I will now focus on how the left uses it and the problems with it.

Identity politics on the left today (Issues with Social Justice)
Fifty-five years ago, Dr. King (MLK) famously proclaimed “When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men – yes, black men as well as white men.

In 2004, in a similar vein, Obama also declared in Boston, “There is not a black American and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there’s the United States of America.” These ideals from the Left eventually led to real change because it transcended identities* and called for an America in which skin color didn’t matter.

In recent years  however, blindness to group identity is now considered the “ultimate sin”, because it masks the reality of group hierarchies and oppression in America. Many on the left have turned against universalist rhetoric (for example, All Lives Matter), viewing it as an attempt to erase the specificity of the experience and oppression of historically marginalized minorities.

The new  exclusivity is partly epistemological, claiming that out-group members cannot share in the knowledge possessed by in-group members (“You can’t understand X because you are white”; “You can’t understand Y because you’re not a woman”; “You can’t speak about Z because you’re not queer”). The idea of “cultural appropriation” insists, among other things, “These are our group’s symbols, traditions, patrimony, and out-group members have no right to them.”

For much  of the Left today, anyone who speaks in favor of group blindness is on the other side, indifferent to or even guilty of oppression. For some, especially on college campuses, anyone who doesn’t swallow the anti-oppression orthodoxy hook, line, and sinker – anyone who doesn’t acknowledge “white supremacy or privilege” in America – is a racist, and anyone who promotes the idea of gender differences – is a sexist.

Progressive "Missteps"
This brings us  to the most striking feature of today’s right-wing political tribalism: the white identity politics that has mobilized around the idea of white males as an endangered, discriminated-against group. Just as the Left’s exclusionary identity politics is ironic in light of the Left’s ostensible demands for inclusivity, so too is the emergence of a “white” identity politics on the right.

For decades , the Right has claimed to be a bastion of individualism, a place where those who rejected the divisive identity politics of the Left found a home. For this reason, conservatives typically paint the emergence of white identity as having been forced on them by the tactics of the Left. As one political commentator puts it, “feeling as though they are under perpetual attack for the color of their skin, many on the right have become defiant of their whiteness, allowing it into their individual politics in ways they have not for generations”.

At its core , the problem is simple but fundamental. While black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Jewish Americans, and many others are allowed – indeed, encouraged – to feel solidarity and take pride in their racial or ethnic identity, white Americans, especially white males, have for the last several decades been told they must never, ever do so.

People want to see their own tribe as exceptional, as something to be deeply proud of; that’s what the tribal instinct is all about. For decades now, nonwhites in the United States have been encouraged to indulge their tribal instincts in just this way, but, at least publicly, American whites have not. On the contrary, if anything, they have been told that their white identity is something no one should take pride in.

During a  Black Lives Matter protest at the DNC held in Philadelphia in July 2016, a protest leader announced that “this is a black and brown resistance march”, asking white allies to “appropriately take [their] place in the back of this march”. LOL, contrast that with MLK and Obama.

To make matters worse, the identity politics on the Left is not only openly hostile towards white males, but also towards dissidents from within. The incident of Lindsay Shepherd is not simply the misjudgement of one individual (Nathan Rambukkana), as some here suggest. In the meeting, Shepherd was accused of having created a toxic climate for some students by playing clips and adopting a neutral stance.

The fact that all three figures in the position of power (Adria Joel, acting manager of gender violence prevention; Herbert Pimlott, head of Shepherd’s academic program; and Rambukkana himself, Shepherd’s supervisor) present at the meeting unanimously accused Shepherd suggests this attitude and Leftist belief is condoned, if not sanctioned at the institutional level. They even compared Peterson to Hitler, yet another example of identity politics on the Left.  If you think just because this happened in Canada so it doesn’t relate to the States, you are grossly mistaken.  The same BS happens all the time, NA colleges are filled with individuals like those three, again suggesting Leftist identity politics at the institutional level. Here are some identity politics at play in the States: Bret Weinstine of Evergreen College; Allison Stanger, Middlebury College; Smith College hosts Anti-Colonial Thanksgiving; UVA faculty and students seek to erase Thomas Jefferson’s legacy.

Finally, I want to briefly touch on another trigger point of the New Left: gender issues. This is something I talked about before so I am not looking for a rehash. If you are interested, you can look at my past posts and read about it on your own. The key, however, is to read replies by other posters and notice the overwhelming “negative” replies relied on personal experience, emotions, and testimony, and how little people knew about the relevant data, studies, and the proper statistical analysis, shocking really, considering the high STEM head count here. Also note certain posters exhibit classic postmodernism views which translated to identity politics: sexual difference is purely socially constructed, and that the sexual difference should be seen as an effect of power relations and cultural practices, refuting all evidences suggesting otherwise.

What does any of these have to do with Trump’s victory
One Trump  voter claimed that “maybe I’m just so sick of being called a bigot that my anger at the authoritarian left has pushed me to support this seriously flawed man.” “The Democratic party,” said Bill Maher, “made the white working man feel like your problems aren’t real because you’re ‘mansplaining’ and check your privilege. You know, if your life sucks, your problems are real.” When blacks blame today’s whites for slavery or ask for reparations, many white Americans feel as though they are being attacked for the sins of other generations.

Or consider this blog post in the American Conservative, worth quoting at length because of the light it sheds:
I’m a white guy. I’m a well-educated intellectual who enjoys small arthouse movies, coffeehouses and classic blues. If you didn’t know any better, you’d probably mistake me for a lefty urban hipster.
And yet. I find some of the alt-right stuff exerts a pull even on me. Even though I’m smart and informed enough to see through it. It’s seductive because I am not a person with any power or privilege, and yet I am constantly bombarded with messages telling me that I’m a cancer, I’m a problem, everything is my fault.

I am very lower middle class. I’ve never owned a new car, and do my own home repairs as much as I can to save money. I cut my own grass, wash my own dishes, buy my clothes from Walmart. I have no clue how I will ever be able to retire. But oh, brother, to hear the media tell it, I am just drowning in unearned power and privilege, and America will be a much brighter, more loving, more peaceful nation when I finally just keel over and die.

Trust me: After all that, some of the alt-right stuff feels like a warm, soothing bath. A “safe space,” if you will. I recoil from the uglier stuff, but some of it— the “hey, white guys are actually okay, you know! Be proud of yourself, white man!” stuff is really VERY seductive, and it is only with some intellectual effort that I can resist the pull … If it’s a struggle for someone like me to resist the pull, I imagine it’s probably impossible for someone with less education or cultural exposure.


So the Progressives lost white men to Trump, what about black voters? Well they simply didn’t show up, because they did not identify with a rich white woman. Do you see now how damaging identity politics is to a candidate with a universalist platform?

Alright, what about white women? Surely they identified with her? How could 45% of college educated white women possibly side with a known sexist? Guess what, not every woman is a radical feminist, who believed that the concept of gender is merely a social construct or that they were being systematically oppressed, especially not the college educated ones.

If we fight right wing postmodernism with left wing postmodernism, the only possible result is a politics that is increasingly reducible to might makes right, and the right will win that fight. We need to articulate and stand up for a robust set of objective left wing principles and values, which all people have reasons to accept. Of course we should continue to debate and interrogate those principles and values, asking ourselves who really benefits from them. But we cannot indulge in the broad, deep, unearned skepticism of postmodernism, which cannibalizes all principles and all values, including our own, leaving nothing in its wake but blood and carnage.

Like I said in my earlier post , so long as we operate under the misguided form of tolerance, where we value civility and feelings above what is objectively real, we will never be rid of the likes of Trump. Ok I am done.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 09:12:55 PM by anisotropy »

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2018, 06:24:12 AM »
Quote
At its core , the problem is simple but fundamental. While black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Jewish Americans, and many others are allowed – indeed, encouraged – to feel solidarity and take pride in their racial or ethnic identity, white Americans, especially white males, have for the last several decades been told they must never, ever do so.

This is patently false and this assertion drives me up a fucking wall.

Please describe "white" culture to me.  What is it? 

There is no "white" identity or culture except in its contrast to other brown or black cultures.  That is a meaningless term by itself.  There is no "white" culture. Most of modern history is made up of white people killing other white people, partly over various cultural disputes. There is however, Russian, Irish, French, British, German etc.... culture, and white people are absolutely allowed to celebrate and take pride in these various cultures and encouraged to do so.  Oktoberfest, Italian-American festivals, etc....

Go up to an average white person and ask them what their ancestry is.  Most people will have some idea.  Now go ask the average black person the same question.  Most have no idea because their ancestors were removed from whatever culture they were a part of and there is no record of it.  The only culture they can really claim to be a part of is "black" culture, because their ancestral culture was stolen from them.

Most of the other cultural groups you mention above have been either forcibly removed from their original culture, or been attacked or been nearly eradicated by genocide over their culture by the various "white" cultures above. 

To celebrate "white culture" is non-nonsensical, because it doesn't exist. 

scottish

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2018, 08:58:21 AM »
That's quite the analysis.   

I'd always wondered what post-modernism was:

Quote
a late-20th-century style and concept in the arts, architecture, and criticism that represents a departure from modernism and has at its heart a general distrust of grand theories and ideologies as well as a problematical relationship with any notion of “art.”.

Is your thesis then that white people felt so dis-enfranchised by the left that they voted for Trump in sufficient numbers to give him the presidency?   That's actually a better explanation than most.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 09:01:12 AM by scottish »

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2018, 10:12:16 AM »
Thank you Scottish, it was my pleasure to copy and paste enough material into a semi-coherent analysis that represents my view. The central thesis is due to poorly crafted identity politics on the left, white males went to trump, black voters simply didn't show up to vote, and white women (even some college educated ones) also went to trump.

There is a really douche saying that goes something like this, "I see much, but not all, yet still more than most; I know much, but not enough, yet still more than most." That is what I strive for in life.


Now golden1,
Albion's Seed by David Fischer might be of use to you, if you are interested in learning which things are generally considered to be "white American culture". We are all (ok I am, I don't know about you) LIVING and BREATHING it. Democracy, Capitalism, Individualism, Rationalism, and Diversity.

Yes, even Diversity.

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2018, 11:35:05 AM »
Ah so you are saying that concepts of democracy, capitalism, individualism, rationalism and diversity are somehow tied to skin color? 

What about colonialism?  Slavery?  Work ethic?  How are these tied to skin color?

Conversely, how would you describe “black” culture? 



« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 11:48:34 AM by golden1 »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2018, 11:39:52 AM »
Going back to an earlier comment about the Republican inclination to fall in line and Democrats needing to care about their candidate:

I think religion is a huge factor there. When you leave religion behind (a state of being that requires you to listen to someone else and follow their path for your life, no matter how you may privately feel about things), you have to start figuring out what you care about and why, then move to mold your life accordingly. It sets up a situation where more people are inclined to reject others’ ideas about how things should be, hence a real difficulty in getting people to fall in line just because.

I say this as someone who was once very religious and Republican because it was expected of me. I’m now an Independent because I have no desire to ever be put in someone’s box again, but I lean left on most issues at his point.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2018, 02:12:49 PM »
golden1,
Ah so you are saying
totally reminds me of this

I anticipated your response, which was why I pre-emptively recommended Fischer’s book to you, where it details the distinct roots of white immigrants, how the culture of each group persisted and formed the basis for the modern USA. More importantly, he presented arguments on why, or rather, how the roots of democracy, capitalism, individualism, rationalism and diversity came from these white immigrants. I am not going to copy+paste more articles, much less entire chapters of a book. It’s complicated and I can’t possibly properly address it here, you are better off reading the book. What I can try to do is talk about the trend a bit.

The past and the Present
The most prominent long term “white american cultural trend” throughout modern American history is how the dominant group (white males) incorporated and absorbed minorities into a system where democracy, capitalism, and “civil rights” were already in place.

Broadly speaking, from the emancipation proclamation in 1863, to the 13th – 15th amendments, to the Reconstruction, to the 19th amendment in 1920, to the Fair Labour Standards Act in 1938, to the second emancipation proclamation in 1964 and beyond, there is a very clear track record where whites (especially white men), following reason and rationalism, continuously expanded the coveted circle of “civil rights” to the minorities.

In short, whites had shared their “culture” and attempted to make it universal (ie American) to an increasing number of people, but it’s rarely taught in this fashion in schools (for many PC reasons). Many citizens don’t even recognize how modern American values came to be.

Despite how historically (over long periods) whites had been largely "universalists", what we are seeing today from the minorities is the opposite, as I had outlined in “my” essay: Progressives rejected rationalism and embraced postmodernism in recent decades, where identity politics reign supreme.  These progressive minorities then began actively alienating and excluding whites (especially white males) based on identity politics, for the sins of previous generations much like you had done here.

Most of the other cultural groups you mention above have been either forcibly removed from their original culture, or been attacked or been nearly eradicated by genocide over their culture by the various "white" cultures above. 

What about colonialism?  Slavery? 

The current generation of white Americans have very little, if anything, to do with the sins most people accuse them of. I am not denying all the horrible things that happened, no one should. But we need to articulate and stand up for a robust set of objective left wing principles and values, which all people have reasons to accept. Instead of simply making white people feel like everything is their fault.

This is a thread about how Progressives helped Trump win, if you want to talk about white culture we should go somewhere else.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 03:55:33 PM by anisotropy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2018, 04:07:42 PM »
Where's all this supposed guilt coming from?  I'm white, straight, middle class, and male . . . and don't feel anything like what you're talking about.

I lean towards a progressive outlook on many thing because I've seen first hand the disadvantages that many have to face that I never did . . . but everything being my fault?  Oppression of my culture?  Never experienced it.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2018, 04:26:59 PM »
Where's all this supposed guilt coming from?  I'm white, straight, middle class, and male . . . and don't feel anything like what you're talking about.

I lean towards a progressive outlook on many thing because I've seen first hand the disadvantages that many have to face that I never did . . . but everything being my fault?  Oppression of my culture?  Never experienced it.

And you shouldn't, no one should.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2018, 04:39:39 PM »
Where's all this supposed guilt coming from?  I'm white, straight, middle class, and male . . . and don't feel anything like what you're talking about.

I lean towards a progressive outlook on many thing because I've seen first hand the disadvantages that many have to face that I never did . . . but everything being my fault?  Oppression of my culture?  Never experienced it.

And you shouldn't, no one should.

Agreed.  But your thesis is that whites are somehow hard done by . . . and in my 37 years as a white dude, I've rarely to never seen this happening in reality.  What is relatively common though, is the expectation that straight/male/white privilege will last forever . . . and anger when equality of others starts to erode this position of power.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2018, 04:57:50 PM »
I think I had been quite clear throughout. It's not so much "anger when equality of others starts to erode this position of power" but more about how in recent years the Progressives identity politics became increasingly hostile towards whites, especially white males.

If it were truly "anger when equality of others starts to erode this position of power" as you suggested, we would have observed similar white voter behaviors in past waves of civil right movements. Recall, in the past, more whites sided with MLK and Obama when they were welcomed.

Also don't forget, Clinton lost many black votes because they simply didn't vote (didn't identify with a rich white woman). That's also a key demographics she lost.

I am not white myself, full disclosure. As a side note, I find labeling people privileged to be a dangerous endeavour, as by association one by default accepts the validity and "truth" of victims of social justice, which identity politics is based on. But you do you.

edit: changed wordings to reflect data
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:10:04 PM by anisotropy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2018, 05:12:12 PM »
You've said several times that progressives have become increasingly hostile towards whites.  Assumption of this is fundamental to your thesis.  You haven't provided evidence of this claim though.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2018, 05:27:36 PM »
Not so much an assumption. As I pointed out, in the past a more Universalist approach was favored by the Left, but it was rejected in recent years. I have given some examples in my lengthy post, here I will point out two biggest public examples: All Lives Matter was thoroughly denounced in favor of a more exclusive slogan, and DNC rally in 2016. Rasmussen Reports in 2015 clearly showed how whites felt about All Lives Matter vs Black Lives Matter (you can see how whites reacted).

People who challenge the notion of cultural appropriation and white privilege has been recent years labeled racists and bigots, shamed relentlessly on social media (medium?); the incidents at Evergreen College and Middleburry are by no means isolated, but more of a snapshot of the bigger picture.

Like I said, for much of modern era, whites had been making the society more egalitarian for all (Universal), then came the rise of identity politics where minority groups seek to exclude whites, that doesn't sit well with many whites. Not only that, almost every other group is encouraged to complain some social injustice that they had suffered.... except the whites. Does it not make you wonder, why is this group missing (in terms of proportion)? Or do you seriously believe that all whites have little to complain about. Please read the quote of the lower-middle class white guy in my lengthy post.

Racism used to have clear meanings, but now some think that a simple "emotional disconnect" is enough to suffice such accusation for a postmodernist believer, also note how the author promotes "positive discrimination" against whites.

I think I've provided plenty of evidence of how minorities alienate whites, if it is not up to your satisfaction, could you explain what constitutes as evidence to you?

One last note.... notice how I gave examples of actual events where minorities excluded whites, including how the whites felt about it (Rasmussen Reports), and how the white votes changed in 2012 and 2016. So far, all I am getting from you are your perspective from your experiences..... recall what I said.....

we see the shift from reason and rational argument to personal experience and testimony, which forms the basics of identity politics: perspectives of social groups with which people identify.

dangerous path to go down
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 06:23:51 PM by anisotropy »

scottish

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2018, 07:48:20 PM »
You sound quite a bit like that Jordan Peterson guy who created such an uproar with the left leaning folks.

I've personally seen a bit of that.   As a white male, I've been told to 'check my privilege' once or twice.   So I can understand why white men and women in a difficult economic situation would be pretty upset by it.

I think we've made lots of progress in improving equality across society and that we will continue to do so.    I also think the folks getting excited about gender-free pronouns and what washrooms they use should find something more important to do.   There are lots of major problems to deal with, and they sit there and worry about being called zhe or they instead of he or she.

I don't care what washroom someone uses as long as they aren't sexually harassing the other users.   I don't care who they sleep with, or what clothes they wear.   I care much more that they can contribute to society and have a meaningful life.   

So if I interpreted Trump as worrying about real problems and the Clinton as worrying about trivialities I could imagine holding my nose and voting for Trump.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2018, 08:46:26 PM »
Ha, I wish I were more like Peterson, sadly I am much less intelligent and articulate but infinitely more douche.

Much of what I presented regarding the dangers of postmodernism and identity politics is not new, nor is it truly original to Peterson. The rational progressive thinkers such as Barbara Epstein and Camille Paglia had been talking about it for ages (at least 15-20 years). The left chose to ignore them, well, look at where we are today. Even now the Progressives still don't see the problem with identity politics, maybe it is too late.

The thing about identity politics is that for the folks that get excited about gender-free pronouns (or any identity politics issues), it is the most important issue for them, because it is their identity, and for those of us that do not share their sense of identity (because its all personal perspectives and experiences, not reason), we often react with ?!?!?!?!?!?

Like I said I am a centrist, I dislike identity politics on both sides.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 09:13:13 PM by anisotropy »

bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2018, 09:02:36 PM »
You've provided some examples of colleges gone wrong and some examples of how some minorities alienate whites but so what?

There are five million college students in the US and you've provided a handful of examples. The vast majority of students are busy getting drunk and having sex and aren't worrying about "zhe" or whether the forgotten bust in the corner of library was an accountant for the Confederate state of Georgia.

So, indeed, some minorities alienate whites and some gay rights activists are silly but there's a big leap from a curated list of egregious incidents to "progressives," and I assume you mean most of them, dissing whites and causing them to vote for Trump. The world's much bigger than an echo chamber Instagram newsfeed.

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2018, 09:09:30 PM »
Quote
Broadly speaking, from the emancipation proclamation in 1863, to the 13th – 15th amendments, to the Reconstruction, to the 19th amendment in 1920, to the Fair Labour Standards Act in 1938, to the second emancipation proclamation in 1964 and beyond, there is a very clear track record where whites (especially white men), following reason and rationalism, continuously expanded the coveted circle of “civil rights” to the minorities.

In short, whites had shared their “culture” and attempted to make it universal (ie American) to an increasing number of people, but it’s rarely taught in this fashion in schools (for many PC reasons). Many citizens don’t even recognize how modern American values came to be.

Despite how historically (over long periods) whites had been largely "universalists", what we are seeing today from the minorities is the opposite, as I had outlined in “my” essay: Progressives rejected rationalism and embraced postmodernism in recent decades, where identity politics reign supreme.  These progressive minorities then began actively alienating and excluding whites (especially white males) based on identity politics, for the sins of previous generations much like you had done here.

Are you actually saying that the only reason that disenfranchised groups have rights is because “white culture” somehow allowed it?  Do you really think that the accomplishments and rights of other cultural and ethnic groups are only because of “white” people? Do you understand how offensive and dismissive and dehumanizing that is? 

Are you saying that the civil rights movement, the women’s rights movement, and the rights that these people lived and died to obtain are because somehow “white” culture allowed it? 

What you are actually doing is rewriting history to your benefit, in effect practicing “white” identity politics.  “White” identity, as I have said before, doesn’t really exist, except in terms of it’s racist context. 


TrudgingAlong

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2018, 09:31:56 PM »
I am genuinely curious if you are actually a minority. Such a bizarre take on civil rights. I am white and don’t think white people are at all responsible for generously creating a more civil society. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, not a man, but I’d say the white power circles only widen when forced to. Otherwise there would have been a whole lot less strife.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2018, 09:36:22 PM »
golden1,

DO NOT twist my words. DO NOT. Read what I wrote again.

1. I recounted the political events that had happened from 1863 onward. Do you deny those happened?
2. I made the case that whites had shared their culture and made it universal (ie American) to an increasing number of people. Do you deny that?
3. I then contrasted it with how minorities today focus more on identity politics and began to exclude whites, I provided examples in previous posts. Do you deny that?

No where in my posts did I say it is ONLY because white ALLOWED anything. Those are your OWN words. DO NOT START THIS.

I think your problem is you are unaware of all the events and history that led to the formation of white American culture. Read the book, do yourself a favor. The white American culture share the same root as modern western culture. Enlightenment, Humanist movements, rationalism, etc, all leading to necessary grounds for diversity and equality. I will no longer reply to you, as you appear incapable of become not racially charged.

First strike: Most of the other cultural groups you mention above have been either forcibly removed from their original culture, or been attacked or been nearly eradicated by genocide over their culture by the various "white" cultures above. 
Second strike: What about colonialism?  Slavery? 
Third strike: this one.

bacchii, yours warrant a more serious response. maybe tomorrow.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2018, 09:48:33 PM »
I am genuinely curious if you are actually a minority. Such a bizarre take on civil rights. I am white and don’t think white people are at all responsible for generously creating a more civil society. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, not a man, but I’d say the white power circles only widen when forced to. Otherwise there would have been a whole lot less strife.

I am a little perplexed, I think there are two issues here, I am not sure which one you meant was bizarre.

1. Fischer's argument how white American culture ended up being the tenet of modern America, including democracy, individualism, and civil rights.
2. Historically whites had adopted a universalist approach and reached several milestones as noted.

which one did you find bizarre?

It is a good point you brought up that circles widen when forced to, as another poster did.

Yes, there was much confrontation prior to each and every "milestones" that I had marked, there is no denying that. But if you believe political equality would come anyway if there had not been an egalitarian and universalist ideology that served as a founding principle, I don't know what to say. Find me an example of that happening in other parts of the world (must be non-western and no later than 1950s, this restriction is due to cultural transport in modern periods) I suppose.

And yes, I am a minority, but recall what I said about identity politics, whether I am white or black or Hispanic or Asian should be meaningless. When we start labeling people with these group identities, it's very hard to not descend into tribalism.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 10:10:43 PM by anisotropy »

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2018, 11:48:21 PM »
You've provided some examples of colleges gone wrong and some examples of how some minorities alienate whites but so what?

There are five million college students in the US and you've provided a handful of examples. The vast majority of students are busy getting drunk and having sex and aren't worrying about "zhe" or whether the forgotten bust in the corner of library was an accountant for the Confederate state of Georgia.

So, indeed, some minorities alienate whites and some gay rights activists are silly but there's a big leap from a curated list of egregious incidents to "progressives," and I assume you mean most of them, dissing whites and causing them to vote for Trump. The world's much bigger than an echo chamber Instagram newsfeed.

Alright bacchii,

I am going to first show you three variants of what you wrote for demonstration purposes. They are only for demonstration purposes, so don't puke on the screen, I will elaborate later.

Trump did not collude
You've provided some suspects of collusion but so what?

There are so five million trump staffs and volunteers in the US and you've provided a handful of suspects. The vast majority of trump staffs are busy getting drunk and having sex and aren't worrying about "zhe" or collusion.

So, indeed, some trump staffs colluded but there's a big leap from a curated list of egregious incidents to "trump collusion" and I assume you mean himself, colluded with you know who. The world's much bigger than an echo chamber Instagram newsfeed.

There is no racism in the police force
You've provided some examples of policing gone wrong and some examples of how some minorities are discriminated against but so what?

There are one million cops in the US and you've provided a handful of examples. The vast majority of cops are busy getting drunk and having sex and aren't worrying about "discriminating against minorities.

So, indeed, some cops targets minorities and some cops are racists but there's a big leap from a curated list of egregious incidents to "racist cops" and I assume you mean most of them discriminate against minorities. The world's much bigger than an echo chamber Instagram newsfeed.

Guns don't kill people
You've provided some examples of gun control gone wrong and some examples of mass shootings but so what?

There are 150 million gun owners in the US and you've provided a handful of examples. The vast majority of gun owners are busy getting drunk and having sex and aren't plotting mass shootings.

So, indeed, some gun owners are nuts but there's a big leap from a curated list of egregious incidents to "gun control" and I assume you mean most of them are dangerous. The world's much bigger than an echo chamber Instagram newsfeed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are all garbage arguments.
Intellectually lazy and non-constructive arguments such as these, refuses to acknowledge the systematic problems present in a system, believing everything is an isolated event. Any reasonable man would agree Trump most likely colluded, racist cops is a problem, and guns definitely kill people.

How do we know we are or aren’t in an echo chamber? Bayesian statistics. Mr. Livermoore has an outstanding article on philosophical economics. It boils down to do things we expect keep happening, or do they not happen even if we think they “should”? Once you read it, we can discuss how it applies here.

The Shepherd incident suggests a PC culture that has gone too far at the institutional level, as all three “adults” unanimously reached the guilty “verdict”; if it had occurred at a company (the three adults would correspond to the roles of HR manager, immediate supervisor, department head), we would be blaming the company culture and the founders right away, don’t you think?  Listen to the tape, will you?

Still you might argue this is an isolated incident. Yet we continue to see incidents like this occur in NA colleges one after another, almost all involving mid-level to senior administrators, as I noted in the post, here is another one at NYU. Read it, it has even more examples from other schools.

I had not only listed incidents on a “curated list”, but also showed they share the same philosophical root, the same M.O, and target the same kind of “victim”.  I think I have demonstrated there is a united group of “Radical Progressives”  that take identity politics way too seriously and the expense of universalist ideals, the mainstream Progressives (if they still exist independently) did nothing as they thought everything's coo.

Now let’s talk about how this relates to white voters. The examples/data I had presented cleared show a logical and coherent argument. Black Lives Matter was formed in 2013, let’s take a look what else happened since then.
1.   Black and White view “BLM” and “ALM” very differently, look at the numbers in Rasmussen reports, I gave link. BLM was adopted in the end.
2.   All groups except for white males are encouraged to complain about social injustice
3.   People who challenged the notion of cultural appropriation and white privilege has been recent years labeled racists and bigots, shamed relentlessly on social media
4.   Obama scored more white male votes than Clinton, by about 3%.
5.   The votes went to Trump

Do you seriously think, given the timeline of these issues clustered together within a 3yr period, it had no effect on a regular white male voter? As we see in #4, all it needs to do is to alienate a tiny % of the white voters and we are done, and it did.

Now, just to be through, if you still find my argument insufficient, what other evidence would you like to see (that is not intellectually lazy, like the ones above). And can YOU provide an alternative argument that is as coherent, logical, and support it with data/evidence.

[90% douche, 5% serious, 5% sarcasm]
Once again I find myself in a familiar position where I present my argument based on the data and evidence I supplied, and my "adversaries" rely on their intellectually lazy arguments, personal experience, and identities to carry the conversation. Be serious, or has postmodernism castrated our abilities to think critically and present coherent arguments based on data and reason.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 12:06:53 AM by anisotropy »

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2018, 05:20:40 AM »
This is parallel to the discussion going on here, but I just listened to the latest Sam Harris podcast.

In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Ian Bremmer about the failure of globalism and the rise of populism. They discuss immigration, trade, automation, wealth inequality, Trump, identity politics and other topics.

Ian Bremmer is the president and founder of Eurasia Group, the leading global political risk research and consulting firm. Eurasia Group provides analysis and expertise about how political developments and national security dynamics move markets and shape investment environments across the globe.

Bremmer created Wall Street’s first global political risk index (GPRI). He is the founding chairman of the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Council on Geopolitical Risk and is an active public speaker. He has authored several books including the national bestsellers Every Nation for Itself: Winners and Losers in a G-Zero World and The End of the Free Market: Who Wins the War Between States and Corporations? Bremmer is a contributor to the Financial Times A-List and Reuters.com. He has written hundreds of articles for publications including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The New York Times, Newsweek, Harvard Business Review, and Foreign Affairs. He appears regularly on CNBC, Fox News Channel, Bloomberg Television, National Public Radio, the BBC, and other networks.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/133-globalism-brink/

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2018, 06:33:18 AM »
Quote
1. I recounted the political events that had happened from 1863 onward. Do you deny those happened?
2. I made the case that whites had shared their culture and made it universal (ie American) to an increasing number of people. Do you deny that?
3. I then contrasted it with how minorities today focus more on identity politics and began to exclude whites, I provided examples in previous posts. Do you deny that?

No where in my posts did I say it is ONLY because white ALLOWED anything. Those are your OWN words. DO NOT START THIS.

I think your problem is you are unaware of all the events and history that led to the formation of white American culture. Read the book, do yourself a favor. The white American culture share the same root as modern western culture. Enlightenment, Humanist movements, rationalism, etc, all leading to necessary grounds for diversity and equality. I will no longer reply to you, as you appear incapable of become not racially charged.

First strike: Most of the other cultural groups you mention above have been either forcibly removed from their original culture, or been attacked or been nearly eradicated by genocide over their culture by the various "white" cultures above. 
Second strike: What about colonialism?  Slavery? 
Third strike: this one.

bacchii, yours warrant a more serious response. maybe tomorrow.

Wow, you seem really angry and defensive.  This is how I, and many others would interpret the things that you have said.  If you can’t actually answer my questions without getting upset, then maybe you don’t have much of an argument. 

You are just making stuff up, and then getting offended at my interpretation of your statements.  You are the one playing identity politics by taking the real accomplishments of other cultural groups and saying that they are due to “white” culture, which doesn’t actually exist.

The fact that I haven’t read the books you want me to read doesn’t invalidate my opinion. 

I have some books for you to read too.

“Lies my teacher told me” by Loewen. 

“Stamped from the beginning” - Ibram X. Kendi
 
“Peoples history of the United States”  - Howard Zinn

Full disclosure: I am white, feel no shame in being white,  and believe the very idea that “white” culture exists as anything but a way to divide racial group is patently false. 

To answer your questions above:

1) I deny your interpretation.

2) I flat out deny that whites “shared” their culture (not that it exists).   More like forced.

3) This is hilarious, because you are the one playing identity politics by making up a culture based on skin color. 

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2018, 06:54:27 AM »
I also find it fascinating that you are so willing to assign positive traits to “white” culture, like enlightenment values, diversity etc... but can’t even discuss things like genocide and colonialism without getting irate.  This is how I know your version of “white” culture is a farce.  If “white” culture helped bring diversity and equality by pulling people up with one hand, it was pushing them down with the twin forces of colonialism and genocide on the other hand. 

The very idea that “progressives” lost because they are playing identity politics is countered by the fact that Trump won by exploitation of white identity politics.  What white people who seem to share your views can’t seem to tolerate is the fact that other cultures are gaining recognition and status in our society and want to viewed with dignity and respect. 

P.S.  You can stop engaging me all you want, but I am going to attempt to stay in this thread as time permits.

This is fascinating to me on a lot of levels, because I never understood taking pride or wrapping my identity around what my ancestors did.  Their accomplishments and flaws are their own.  I truly wonder at the motives of people who so strongly want to defend “white” culture and take it so personally when the obvious flaws are pointed out, and yet expect that we should be able to disparage other cultures without them taking offense.

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2018, 07:00:55 AM »
Quote
I am genuinely curious if you are actually a minority. Such a bizarre take on civil rights. I am white and don’t think white people are at all responsible for generously creating a more civil society. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, not a man, but I’d say the white power circles only widen when forced to. Otherwise there would have been a whole lot less strife.

Agreed.  The OP’s interpretation of history is bloodless.  One would think, reading his interpretation that women just said “Oh we want more rights” and men said “Oh, all right then”, instead of fighting tooth and nail every step of the way.  It’s absurd. 

Later on I will come in with an alternative explanation for the expansion of civil rights that has nothing to do with being “white”. 


RetiredAt63

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2018, 07:22:35 AM »

Agreed.  The OP’s interpretation of history is bloodless.  One would think, reading his interpretation that women just said “Oh we want more rights” and men said “Oh, all right then”, instead of fighting tooth and nail every step of the way.  It’s absurd. 

Canada, not the US, but male privilege and the fight for women's rights:
The Persons Case (officially Edwards v. A.G. of Canada) was a constitutional ruling that established the right of women to be appointed to the Senate. The case was initiated by the Famous Five, a group of prominent women activists. In 1928, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that women were not “persons” according to the British North America Act and therefore were ineligible for appointment to the Senate. However, the women appealed to the Privy Council of England, which in 1929 reversed the Court’s decision. The Persons Case opened the Senate to women, enabling them to work for change in both the House of Commons and the Upper House. Moreover, the legal recognition of women as “persons” meant that women could no longer be denied rights based on a narrow interpretation of the law.

My bolding.  Of course even after that women could not do many things that men could do.  Like have their own bank accounts without their husband's permission.

golden1

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2018, 07:47:23 AM »
Quote
Once again I find myself in a familiar position where I present my argument based on the data and evidence I supplied, and my "adversaries" rely on their intellectually lazy arguments, personal experience, and identities to carry the conversation.

You seem nice. 


bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2018, 08:44:21 AM »
Now, just to be through, if you still find my argument insufficient, what other evidence would you like to see (that is not intellectually lazy, like the ones above). And can YOU provide an alternative argument that is as coherent, logical, and support it with data/evidence.

I had a long reply but really it boils down to: provide the fucking evidence. Merely pasting links from google and name dropping authors doesn't prove a thing.

Your argument is obviously borne by your personal experience. It's also built on a house of cards.

* Are the majority of progressives wandering around biting their nails because of white guilt? Are the majority of non-progressives doing the same?
* Are white males really discouraged to complain about social injustice? Or is this from your own echo chamber Instagram newsfeed?
* Does Obama getting more white male votes mean what you think it means? Is there another reason?
* There were fewer people voting in 2016 than in 2008, even though the voter ranks grew by over 10 million. Why didn't they vote? Were they shamed? Were they non-enthusiastic? Were they complacent?

Finally, you're a big fan of the strawman argument. That's intellectually lazy.


Quote
[90% douche, 5% serious, 5% sarcasm]
Once again I find myself in a familiar position where I present my argument based on the data and evidence I supplied, and my "adversaries" rely on their intellectually lazy arguments, personal experience, and identities to carry the conversation.

It's tough to be a stable genius.

bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2018, 08:53:55 AM »
This is parallel to the discussion going on here, but I just listened to the latest Sam Harris podcast.

In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Ian Bremmer about the failure of globalism and the rise of populism. They discuss immigration, trade, automation, wealth inequality, Trump, identity politics and other topics.

Actually, this is counter-evidence to anistropy's theory. Populism is not unique to the US. Where did it start? Middle-eastern immigrants to Europe? Or does it trace back to the loss of jobs and opportunity for factory workers and the need to blame someone?  The usual pro-corporate leaders have also given a big "fuck you" to those same workers for years.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2018, 10:59:55 AM »
Bachii
It is clear you neither read my links of studies and data nor intend to. I simply showed you where to look to better inform yourself, as copy+pasting everything to you here borders spoon-feeding. Accusing someone of name dropping is a common reaction from a person who really has very limited understanding of what they are talking about.  But you do you.

the rules for what counts as knowledge or what counts as valid argument are themselves social constructs which further entrench (perceived) oppression

Populism rises when both sides start focusing on what feels good to them. Not only is it not counter-evidence to my thesis, but it directly reinforces my points here. Populism can be a form of identity politics (or vice versa), a simple google shows a paper showing exactly that by M. Marchlewska. Why do I bother, you are not going to read it anyway. Sorry, did I just name drop on you again?

I have provided plenty of evidence to reinforce my theory, in forms of links and books. Instead you simply complained about pasting links and name dropping. I asked you what kind evidence would you like to see, you didn’t answer, instead just said “provide the fucking evidence.” Since you didn’t answer, I will stop asking and close that door here.

Currently your counter-argument (to me) boils down to this:
How do you know you are right, did you consider possibilities other than bad identity politics from the progressives?

I don’t know if I am right. Which is why I considered many possible explanations, I looked for common themes and evidences that might provide a coherent and logical explanation to
1.   Obama got more white males votes than Clinton
2.   Less black votes for Clinton than Obama (which is related to your point that 2016 had less total votes than 2008, before BML, before “marked rise of identity politics”)
3.   Why did a sizeable portion of white female vote for Trump

I found one coherent and logical (occam’s razor) explanation that is backed and linked to all the things I mentioned in my lengthy post: identity politics gone wrong.

If you had actually read and comprehended my conclusion, you would know it’s not as simple as white males being shamed or excluded, but also blacks did not identify with a rich white woman, and white female voters did not identify with many of the radical progressive views on gender issues.

You say my argument is obviously borne by my personal experience. Yet everything I have presented, whether be the election result, the survey, the incidents, are all independent of my own existence. Indeed I definitely did not confuse objective data with personal experience. Not once did I bring my own personal experience into this.

If anything, you (plural) are the ones that dwelled on my ethnicity and your own personal experience. Are you really this far gone that you can not tell what constitutes as personal experience? 

We may never know what really happened, but I find “my” thesis (I use quotations because it’s not truly mine, and has been mentioned in academia, yet remain largely unpopular to the public precisely because of identity politics) reasonable and supported by plenty of data. If you want to present an alternative view that’s equally backed by the same quality and quantity of reason and data, please do. Otherwise, you just do you.


bacchi

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2018, 11:15:40 AM »
You say my argument is obviously borne by my personal experience. Yet everything I have presented, whether be the election result, the survey, the incidents, are all independent of my own existence. Indeed I definitely did not confuse objective data with personal experience. Not once did I bring my own personal experience into this.


You're too far gone in the weeds. Stop reading extreme dailyKos bloggers, stop googling for extreme cases of PC in colleges, and stop reading Foxnews and Breitbart nonstop. Above all, stop scrolling through your obviously bubbled newsfeed before bedtime.

You'll find out that the real world isn't as scary as you seem to think it is and there aren't transgender women's rights majors glaring at you from every corner trying to get you to use "zhe."

Quote
Otherwise, you just do you.

I will, thanks.

You keep on tilting at windmills. Good luck out there.

anisotropy

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Re: Why Progressives Elected Trump
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2018, 11:36:35 AM »
Quote from: bacchi
Stop reading extreme dailyKos bloggers, stop googling for extreme cases of PC in colleges, and stop reading Foxnews and Breitbart nonstop. Above all, stop scrolling through your obviously bubbled newsfeed before bedtime.

The theory, links/data I provided came from

Washington post x3
The Guardian x3
Rasmussen Report
Social Psychological and Personality Science
The works of  Barbara Epstein
                    Camille Paglia
                    Benjamin Studebaker

by equating these to dailyKos or Foxnews or Breitbart, it truly shows how far gone you are and how little you know. This not only shows my original thesis (postmodern identity politics) to be correct, but also adds yet another example on the danger of identity politics. Again, you do you. I am glad everyone could see an example of this live.

Postmodernism and identity politics
that there is no identifiable social reality against which interpretations can be judged, no ground in material or social reality that places any constraints on the formation of identities or perspectives.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 11:46:14 AM by anisotropy »