Author Topic: Why is the libertarian ideology so popular among otherwise reasonable people?  (Read 42516 times)

GuitarStv

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No.  I don't think it's right to kill someone by poisoning their well water, or their air.  You were the one who claimed that poisoning the air doesn't matter in small quantities.  I disagree with that assessment.

You can drive a car without hurting someone. You can't allocate the aggregate of pollution to individuals.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 12:43:09 PM by GuitarStv »

bacchi

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The point being that we've decided, collectively, that some things detrimental to others are acceptable. This includes polluting cars, which affects poor people in urban areas more than well-off suburbanites (with asthma, etc.) It also means using sewage for fracking, even with the chance of the sewage leaking into the public water supply.

Even libertarians have agreed to this social contract. What we're really discussing, apparently unbeknownst to some libertarians, is where the line is drawn.

GuitarStv

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The point being that we've decided, collectively, that some things detrimental to others are acceptable. This includes polluting cars, which affects poor people in urban areas more than well-off suburbanites (with asthma, etc.) It also means using sewage for fracking, even with the chance of the sewage leaking into the public water supply.

Even libertarians have agreed to this social contract. What we're really discussing, apparently unbeknownst to some libertarians, is where the line is drawn.

Yep.

I think a case can be made that the benefit of automobiles outweighs the people killed because we have them . . . but we can't pretend that those deaths don't occur.  Every time you fire up that engine, you're contributing to someone's death.

Boofinator

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The point being that we've decided, collectively, that some things detrimental to others are acceptable. This includes polluting cars, which affects poor people in urban areas more than well-off suburbanites (with asthma, etc.) It also means using sewage for fracking, even with the chance of the sewage leaking into the public water supply.

Even libertarians have agreed to this social contract. What we're really discussing, apparently unbeknownst to some libertarians, is where the line is drawn.

Yep.

I think a case can be made that the benefit of automobiles outweighs the people killed because we have them . . . but we can't pretend that those deaths don't occur.  Every time you fire up that engine, you're contributing to someone's death.

Would you be willing to go back to first principles on your logic? Because I'm mind-boggled with the direction this conversation has gone (not upset, just confused).

I'll start the ball rolling so as to explain why I'm so confused. Pretty much everybody of every political persuasion recognizes that pollution causes harm. Additionally, pretty much everybody agrees that you have to balance the harm of pollution with the utility gained in the course of that pollution. So everybody agrees on the basic facts, but the disagreements stem from 1) how bad individuals feel the pollution actually is (with Republicans/Conservatives generally believing it to be less bad than Democrats/Liberals) and 2) how we should address the issues of pollution (I think it's safe to say that Republicans generally believe in not reducing pollution beyond the current level, Democrats clamoring for increased government intervention, and Libertarians arguing for personal action to fight pollution).

Now, why I'm so confused, is that you seem to be implying that any action that might cause harm to another is roughly equivalent to murder. I'm sure people have been killed by others riding their bikes; since this is a possibility any time somebody hops on their bike, should bikes be banned?

MilesTeg

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The point being that we've decided, collectively, that some things detrimental to others are acceptable. This includes polluting cars, which affects poor people in urban areas more than well-off suburbanites (with asthma, etc.) It also means using sewage for fracking, even with the chance of the sewage leaking into the public water supply.

Even libertarians have agreed to this social contract. What we're really discussing, apparently unbeknownst to some libertarians, is where the line is drawn.

Yep.

I think a case can be made that the benefit of automobiles outweighs the people killed because we have them . . . but we can't pretend that those deaths don't occur.  Every time you fire up that engine, you're contributing to someone's death.

This is true of pretty much anything you do. Staying alive requires resources. Even fulfilling basic needs such as food, water and shelter requires collecting, storing and protecting those resources which has a cost that includes harming (including contributing to the death of) some. Pest/Herbicides and fertilizer used to grow your food; heating your home, purifying, storing and distributing the water you drink all pollute and otherwise contribute to someone's death.

Telecaster

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I don't like arguments of the type "If you subscribe to __________ philosophy, therefore you must believe ________ ."   It is possible to take any political philosophy and twist it into an absurd position. 

It is much more productive to look at actual libertarian (in this case) positions.

freya

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You were the one who claimed that poisoning the air doesn't matter in small quantities.  I disagree with that assessment.

Alrighty then.  You are hereby no longer permitted to exhale.

LennStar

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I don't think there should be federal infrastructure grants. Reduce the federal taxes and let individual jurisdictions decided if the infrastructure they want is worth the taxes needed to pay for it rather than competing with each other to get the money from the federal government. Of course I'm talking about what I think government should look like, not what I think is worth the political will it would take to make the change.
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ctuser1

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Any freedom from others that is given up is a failure to account for negative externalities (pollution), a failure to provide safe infrastructure, or a failure to enforce laws that would prevent reckless endangerment.
I disagree with your statement that all government intervention provides one of those three things. I also question how much providing infrastructure should be a public vs. private affair. For publicly provided infrastructure, I'd generally prefer to see funding and planning at lower levels of government rather than at the national level.

I fully agree that accounting for negative externalities is appropriate use of government (I prefer setting taxes/fees as directly on the activity causing the negative externality as possible). I would prefer most accounting for negative externalities to be accounted for at higher levels of government to prevent simply shifting them around. I also fully approve of law enforcement that effectively prevents reckless endangerment is necessary government, but am wary of excessive law enforcement impinging on freedom. I see appropriate law enforcement activities at most levels of government.

Do you have an example where your preferred form of governance has worked?
Worked = had moderate or high economic growth + equality?

There are certain things (a growing number, in fact, over the centuries) where a bigger solution is better.
e.g. You *do* need a national currency.
      - ditto - military.
      - ditto - norms of what policing looks like, underwritten by "fundamental rights".

Then you consider things where economies of scale reign. e.g. insurance (bigger the pool, better), infrastructure investment (inconsistent infrastructure investment has less benefits than nationwide, consistent one), vaccination (vaccinating only 90% is not beneficial) etc.

Then you have to consider the mechanism of economic surplus recycling. KY and CA are both equally necessary in US. There was a reason the Germans wanted Greece in EU in the first place.

When you say you "generally prefer" an ideological position, it probably is okay in a bubble.

When that "preference" translates into zombified voting patterns for a large block of such people who "generally prefer" an ideological position and then into government actions in accordance to that position *despite* any evidence/data/logic to the contrary - that becomes dangerous!

We have an overdose of libertarian nonsense in US politics since about a few decades. The logical position is to view any such position with extreme suspicion till the system is detoxified. You don't discuss the finer distinctions of Bordeaux and Savoie in an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting. Both are evil and dangerous for them.

MilesTeg

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You were the one who claimed that poisoning the air doesn't matter in small quantities.  I disagree with that assessment.

Alrighty then.  You are hereby no longer permitted to exhale.

Or make wind.

GuitarStv

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You were the one who claimed that poisoning the air doesn't matter in small quantities.  I disagree with that assessment.

Alrighty then.  You are hereby no longer permitted to exhale.

Or make wind.

If you can show that either are directly implicated in the deaths of thousands of people each year then we can talk.

Exhaust from automobiles is directly linked to 53,000 deaths in the US alone each year (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1352231013004548).




I don't like arguments of the type "If you subscribe to __________ philosophy, therefore you must believe ________ ."   It is possible to take any political philosophy and twist it into an absurd position. 

It is much more productive to look at actual libertarian (in this case) positions.

Agreed.

But the problem that I run into with Libertarians is that they're always telling me how their belief system is best one because it's all about protecting people's freedom.  And then I mention the car thing . . . and they're like . . . 'well yeah, we don't protect your freedom to live if it's inconvenient to do so'.

So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

robartsd

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I disagree with your statement that all government intervention provides one of those three things. I also question how much providing infrastructure should be a public vs. private affair. For publicly provided infrastructure, I'd generally prefer to see funding and planning at lower levels of government rather than at the national level.

I fully agree that accounting for negative externalities is appropriate use of government (I prefer setting taxes/fees as directly on the activity causing the negative externality as possible). I would prefer most accounting for negative externalities to be accounted for at higher levels of government to prevent simply shifting them around. I also fully approve of law enforcement that effectively prevents reckless endangerment is necessary government, but am wary of excessive law enforcement impinging on freedom. I see appropriate law enforcement activities at most levels of government.

Do you have an example where your preferred form of governance has worked?
Worked = had moderate or high economic growth + equality?

There are certain things (a growing number, in fact, over the centuries) where a bigger solution is better.
e.g. You *do* need a national currency.
      - ditto - military.
      - ditto - norms of what policing looks like, underwritten by "fundamental rights".
I don't know of any forme of governance that has had moderate or high economic growth + equality.

You conveniently ignored the qualifier in the sentence, then went on to list things that were eliminated by the qualifier. I fully support a national currency, national military, and national enumeration of basic rights. I've never heard any libertarian argument against these (other than arguments against fiat currency in general - a call to return to a gold standard, not currency at the state or local level).

Yes there needs to be some coordination of interstate transportation infrastructure, but there is no reason the federal government needs to be involved in developing local transportation infrastructure.

When that "preference" translates into zombified voting patterns for a large block of such people who "generally prefer" an ideological position and then into government actions in accordance to that position *despite* any evidence/data/logic to the contrary - that becomes dangerous!

We have an overdose of libertarian nonsense in US politics since about a few decades. The logical position is to view any such position with extreme suspicion till the system is detoxified. You don't discuss the finer distinctions of Bordeaux and Savoie in an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting. Both are evil and dangerous for them.
I see plenty of zombified voting patterns in the US for the leading political parties. Our system strongly favors a two party system that has many people feeling completely disenfranchised and others who think their vote might help elect the "lessor of two evils". I think hearing more libertarian arguments is mostly just a symptom of a growing number of people who no longer believe our federal government is actually representing them. I'd like to see the house of representatives filled with people representing districts with up to 5 seats elected using a single transferable vote or range voting system. We'd likely end the power struggle between the two establishment parties and replace it with real debate over pragmatic solutions to problems.

Yes, doggedly sticking to an ideology can be a problem. I've tried to be clear in this thread that I view libertarian philosophy as a good starting point for considering government intervention, not necessarily the absolute best solution in every circumstance. GuitarStv makes a decent point that many libertarian ideologues conveniently ignore the harm they do to others as part of a collective that accepts ICE vehicles in our transportation system while claiming that libertarian-ism has a moral high ground.

Wrenchturner

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

Because this is luddite-ism. ICE cars are better than steam fired with coal or wood which is better than horses.  No one said they don't have moral hazard. 

The libertarian you seem to be arguing with lives on an island by themselves, living off their own back exclusively.  That person doesn't exist.

MilesTeg

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

I'm no libertarian, but the case for driving cars is extremely strong. There are literally billions of people who are alive today based on economic activity that is rooted in efficient transport, both commercial and personal.

GuitarStv

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

I'm no libertarian, but the case for driving cars is extremely strong. There are literally billions of people who are alive today based on economic activity that is rooted in efficient transport, both commercial and personal.

Agreed.  That's what I believe.  We knowingly kill those 52,000 people each year because it makes life considerably better and easier for the rest of us.  But I haven't based my whole belief system around the importance of personal freedom.

ctuser1

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.... but there is no reason the federal government needs to be involved in developing local transportation infrastructure...

Do you know of a local transportation infrastructure that does not depend on the interstate every day? Heck, DW takes the interstate every day for her "local" commute. I do so to pick up kids from afterschool (just two exits - but still more convenient than the red lights). That smells like a lot of federal government involvement in construction, maintenance and upkeep of something critical for local transportation infrastructure.

Take the case of NYC Subway. It is heavily subsidized by the state, and possibly also feds (I am too lazy to look up). The cost of the tickets don't cover even a fraction of running, maintaining and extending it. The city government (i.e. the local government) will go bankrupt in roughly 2 seconds if it was to foot all the bill. There is a strong economic value in keeping this maintained and in fact extending it, however. The increased value of real estate alone is (if I remember correctly from a NYT article I read long time ago) 2 to 3 orders of magnitude higher than the cost of constructing a new line!!

If your argument is "local" government needs to worry about this, and not state/federal - does the local government get to keep all the tax revenue that NYC sends to state/feds? That seems like a fair ask - right? Local government is the only one worrying about infra - so NYC generates its funds for itself and does all the infra work, and Boise Idaho does theirs!!

This is where libertarian logic leads. Is that what you are arguing for when you say there is "no reason" for federal involvement in .....

... I view libertarian philosophy as a good starting point for considering government intervention ...
I am yet to hear from you why you think "it" is a good starting point, as opposed to - say - communism, or fascism or XYZism.

Why not start from "whatever works" and ditch all "ism"? Any libertarian argument you make likely works for a group of 5 people, and gets to an untenable position in a hurry at any scale (like the local transportation example I explained above).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 11:35:40 AM by ctuser1 »

J Boogie

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I am yet to hear from you why you think "it" is a good starting point, as opposed to - say - communism, or fascism or XYZism.

Why not start from "whatever works" and ditch all "ism"? Any libertarian argument you make likely works for a group of 5 people, and gets to an untenable position in a hurry at any scale (like the local transportation example I explained above).

You're describing pragmatism.

Though it irritated Obama to know she said it, Hilary was right when she privately criticized his foreign policy strategy of "don't do stupid shit." I believe her sentiment was that great nations need founding principles, and "don't do stupid shit" is not a founding principle.

Pragmatism is a little more than a steady hand at the wheel, avoiding either a double down on bad policy or an overcorrection. It's probably needed now, but then what? What vision will guide our country?

It comes up short as a founding principle because it is amoral and agnostic, looking around the room when asked to answer what is most important for human wellbeing and happiness. Health, wealth, safety, some freedoms, equality, diversity, etc etc.

Many of these happiness indicators are competing. Our health would probably be far better if we banned added sugars. Maybe our wealth would be higher if we banned credit cards. Our institutions would be more ethnically diverse if we enforced quotas. We'd be more economically equal if we had a 99% tax on all income over $100,000.

And who knows, maybe the data would come back that citizens are happy with these adjustments. Many Chinese citizens seemed to have accepted big brother into their lives in exchange for growing wealth.

The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation. They place a premium on freedom, and yes, many fail to account for/deny the negative externalities of it, but in my view if the negative externalities are accounted for properly it is the most moral way to govern. It is the form of government most likely to operate based on consent and least likely to operate using coercion.




LonerMatt

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I think that Libertarianism fails to combat inequality which is perniciously anti-liberal. A society needs either broad social security and ways to fund those OR an incredibly community minded, charitable citizenry for there not to develop an underclass of people entrenched and lacking a lot of what Libertarians often espouse (people making their own choices, people advocating for themselves, people being free to make their way in the world).

I like how some Libertarian principles work: let's not have borders at all, let's not restrict movement of people. It's a good idea, I think we should work towards it. I do think that the inequality and social aspects of poverty and how 'freedom' is often a double standard (life looks a lot more free with the fuck you money than without ;) ). For better or worse governments are more effective at running social programs than anyone else, though maybe that will change in the future.

John Galt incarnate!

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The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation.

 

Precisely.

Fundamental liberties are inherent, and so, timeless.

Their existence  does not depend on societies, legislatures, statute books, or  courts.

Whether they are treated as such is another matter.

The Constitution, or any other charter of liberty, are only as enduring as the fixity of their guarantees.


GuitarStv

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Except when fundamental liberties cause inconvenience.  Then we ditch 'em.

LonerMatt

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The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation.

 

Precisely.

Fundamental liberties are inherent, and so, timeless.

Their existence  does not depend on societies, legislatures, statute books, or  courts.

Whether they are treated as such is another matter.

The Constitution, or any other charter of liberty, are only as enduring as the fixity of their guarantees.

I'd argue that what people understand to be free shifts as their context does. The slave-owning, literate, learned constitutional writers obviously had an idea of what freedom meant that was different to the ideas of the slaves they kept for many years.

I think it's a bit silly to assume that a word, or concept, has a fixed meaning over hundreds of years. As we learn more and learn to look at things with fresh eyes we should be updating what we know to be true. We know to be in poverty is to deny many freedoms others have, we know to be born in area A compared with area B can be incredibly damaging. In knowing this, if we want to ensure more people are actually able to live out their inalienable rights we perhaps need to support that. Not getting in the way isn't enough.

RetiredAt63

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I am yet to hear from you why you think "it" is a good starting point, as opposed to - say - communism, or fascism or XYZism.

Why not start from "whatever works" and ditch all "ism"? Any libertarian argument you make likely works for a group of 5 people, and gets to an untenable position in a hurry at any scale (like the local transportation example I explained above).

You're describing pragmatism.

Though it irritated Obama to know she said it, Hilary was right when she privately criticized his foreign policy strategy of "don't do stupid shit." I believe her sentiment was that great nations need founding principles, and "don't do stupid shit" is not a founding principle.

Pragmatism is a little more than a steady hand at the wheel, avoiding either a double down on bad policy or an overcorrection. It's probably needed now, but then what? What vision will guide our country?

It comes up short as a founding principle because it is amoral and agnostic, looking around the room when asked to answer what is most important for human wellbeing and happiness. Health, wealth, safety, some freedoms, equality, diversity, etc etc.

Many of these happiness indicators are competing. Our health would probably be far better if we banned added sugars. Maybe our wealth would be higher if we banned credit cards. Our institutions would be more ethnically diverse if we enforced quotas. We'd be more economically equal if we had a 99% tax on all income over $100,000.

And who knows, maybe the data would come back that citizens are happy with these adjustments. Many Chinese citizens seemed to have accepted big brother into their lives in exchange for growing wealth.

The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation. They place a premium on freedom, and yes, many fail to account for/deny the negative externalities of it, but in my view if the negative externalities are accounted for properly it is the most moral way to govern. It is the form of government most likely to operate based on consent and least likely to operate using coercion.

The founding principle of Canada's founding legislation was "peace, order and good government". Sounds pretty pragmatic to me.  It works at least as well as "life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness".

ctuser1

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The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation.

 

Precisely.

Fundamental liberties are inherent, and so, timeless.

Their existence  does not depend on societies, legislatures, statute books, or  courts.

Whether they are treated as such is another matter.

The Constitution, or any other charter of liberty, are only as enduring as the fixity of their guarantees.

As I have mentioned a couple of times in this thread, you are probably defining ideology/entity/person by what they say. According to this world-view, "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" would be considered democratic, "National Socialist ...." would be considered socialist, etc. etc.

I don't define or view ideologies/views/people like that. I find their actions to be far more useful markers.

Now, if you move beyond words and into the realm of actions, I don't see what fundamental liberties have to do with libertarianism. Actions of most well known libertarians definitely don't jive with your claim that they worry or care about "fundamental liberties", except of course if you define "fundamental liberty" only as their liberty to freeload when and where they feel like, and don't bestow those liberties outside their clique.

John Galt incarnate!

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The libertarian view is that personal freedoms are not up for experimentation.

 

Precisely.

Fundamental liberties are inherent, and so, timeless.

Their existence  does not depend on societies, legislatures, statute books, or  courts.

Whether they are treated as such is another matter.

The Constitution, or any other charter of liberty, are only as enduring as the fixity of their guarantees.

I'd argue that what people understand to be free shifts as their context does. The slave-owning, literate, learned constitutional writers obviously had an idea of what freedom meant that was different to the ideas of the slaves they kept for many years.

I think it's a bit silly to assume that a word, or concept, has a fixed meaning over hundreds of years. As we learn more and learn to look at things with fresh eyes we should be updating what we know to be true. We know to be in poverty is to deny many freedoms others have, we know to be born in area A compared with area B can be incredibly damaging. In knowing this, if we want to ensure more people are actually able to live out their inalienable rights we perhaps need to support that. Not getting in the way isn't enough.

Any of my disagreement is only a quibble.

John Galt incarnate!

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Now, if you move beyond words and into the realm of actions, I don't see what fundamental liberties have to do with libertarianism. Actions of most well known libertarians definitely don't jive with your claim that they worry or care about "fundamental liberties", except of course if you define "fundamental liberty" only as their liberty to freeload when and where they feel like, and don't bestow those liberties outside their clique.


I absolutely   disagree that  libertarians, whether prominent or not, "don't worry or care about  fundamental liberties."

On this issue you and I are opposite.

The Meyer and Pierce opinions were delivered by Justice McReynolds, a reactionary classical liberal.

Known for his  libertarian streak, Justice Kennedy  delivered the opinions in Lawrence and Obergefell.


There aren't many  libertarians who are not supportive of all the Court-established liberties in the following cases.

And the vast majority of libertarians would agree with Justice Harlan's dissent in Poe,  a trenchant analysis  of the scope of liberty under the 14th Amendment's doctrine of substantive due process.



 
Meyer v. Nebraska   (1923)


While this Court has not attempted to define with exactness the liberty [of the 14th Amendment]...the term has received much consideration and some of the included things have been definitely stated. Without doubt, it denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint, but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

                   
Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925)


The fundamental theory of liberty upon which all governments in this Union repose excludes any general power of the State to standardize its children by forcing them to accept instruction from public teachers only. The child is not the mere creature of the State; those who nurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations.



                   
 
  Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson (1942)


We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race. The power to sterilize, if exercised, may have subtle, far-reaching and devastating effects. In evil or reckless hands, it can cause races or types which are inimical to the dominant group to wither and disappear. There is no redemption for the individual whom the law touches. Any experiment which the State conducts is to his irreparable injury. He is forever deprived of a basic liberty.



                           
 
Poe v Ullman (1961)


Justice Harlan's Dissent

[T]he full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution.

This "liberty" is not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on.

It is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints,...and which also recognizes, what a reasonable and sensitive judgment must, that certain interests require particularly careful scrutiny of the state needs asserted to justify their abridgment.

Due process has not been reduced to any formula; its content cannot be determined by reference to any code.The best that can be said is that, through the course of this Court's decisions, it has represented the balance which our Nation, built upon postulates of respect for the liberty of the individual, has struck between that liberty and the demands of organized society.

If the supplying of content to this Constitutional concept has, of necessity, been a rational process, it certainly has not been one where judges have felt free to roam where unguided speculation might take them.

The balance of which I speak is the balance struck by this country, having regard to what history teaches are the traditions from which it developed as well as the traditions from which it broke.

That tradition is a living thing. A decision of this Court which radically departs from it could not long survive, while a decision which builds on what has survived is likely to be sound. No formula could serve as a substitute, in this area, for judgment and restraint.




                     
 
  Griswold v. Connecticut (1965)


The present case, then, concerns a relationship lying within the zone of privacy created by several fundamental constitutional guarantees. And it concerns a law which, in forbidding the use of contraceptives, rather than regulating their manufacture or sale, seeks to achieve its goals by means having a maximum destructive impact upon that relationship. Such a law cannot stand in light of the familiar principle, so often applied by this Court, that a governmental purpose to control or prevent activities constitutionally subject to state regulation may not be achieved by means which sweep unnecessarily broadly and thereby invade the area of protected freedoms.



                                   
Loving v. Virginia (1967)


These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.


                                   
 
    Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972)


 If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.


                                             
  Roe v. Wade (1973)


The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy.

In a line of decisions, however,...the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution.

 In varying contexts...the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment,...in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments,...in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights,...in the Ninth Amendment, or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment.


These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,"...are included in this guarantee of personal privacy.

They also make it clear that...this right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.


                       
  Zablocki v. Redhail (1978)


Since our past decisions make clear that the right to marry is of fundamental importance, and since the classification at issue here significantly interferes with the exercise of that right, we believe that "critical examination" of the state interests advanced in support of the classification is required.

Subsequent decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.

Long ago...the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life" and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress."



   
   
Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey (1992)


It is tempting, as a means of curbing the discretion of federal judges, to suppose that liberty encompasses no more than those rights already guaranteed to the individual against federal interference by the express provisions of the first eight amendments to the Constitution. But of course this Court has never accepted that view.

 It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter. We have vindicated this principle before.

Neither the Bill of Rights nor the specific practices of States at the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment marks the outer limits of the substantive sphere of liberty which the Fourteenth Amendment protects.

Our law affords constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing, and education.

Our cases recognize "the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child." 

Our precedents "have respected the private realm of family life which the state cannot enter." 

These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.

 At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.



                   
 
Lawrence  v. Texas (2003)

Liberty protects the person from unwarranted government intrusions into a dwelling or other private places.

In our tradition the State is not omnipresent in the home. And there are other spheres of our lives and existence, outside the home, where the State should not be a dominant presence.

Freedom extends beyond spatial bounds. Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct. The instant case involves liberty of the person both in its spatial and more transcendent dimensions.


                     
 
  Obergefell  v. Hodges (2015)


The Constitution promises liberty to all within its reach, a liberty that includes certain specific rights that allow  persons, within a lawful realm, to define and express their identity.

From their beginning to their most recent page, the annals of human history reveal the transcendent importance of marriage... Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations.

Indeed, changed understandings of marriage are characteristic of a Nation where new dimensions of freedom become apparent to new generations, often through perspectives that begin in pleas or protests and then are considered in the political sphere and the judicial process.


Under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, no State shall “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” The fundamental liberties protected by this Clause include most of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

In addition these liberties extend to certain personal choices central to individual dignity and autonomy, including intimate choices that define personal identity and beliefs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 08:45:36 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Boofinator

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

I'm no libertarian, but the case for driving cars is extremely strong. There are literally billions of people who are alive today based on economic activity that is rooted in efficient transport, both commercial and personal.

Agreed.  That's what I believe.  We knowingly kill those 52,000 people each year because it makes life considerably better and easier for the rest of us.  But I haven't based my whole belief system around the importance of personal freedom.

When one considers that the cohort that might die a few years early due to pollution is the same cohort most in need of cars, and that taking away their cars would likely kill more than 52,000 people each year (without exaggeration), then the paradox vanishes.

That being said, I think that there is such inherent distrust of the government on that side of the aisle that it biases their perception on certain social issues (such as the seemingly universal dismissal of present-day pollution's harms by Libertarians in power), but this is different from the principles.

GuitarStv

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

I'm no libertarian, but the case for driving cars is extremely strong. There are literally billions of people who are alive today based on economic activity that is rooted in efficient transport, both commercial and personal.

Agreed.  That's what I believe.  We knowingly kill those 52,000 people each year because it makes life considerably better and easier for the rest of us.  But I haven't based my whole belief system around the importance of personal freedom.

When one considers that the cohort that might die a few years early due to pollution is the same cohort most in need of cars, and that taking away their cars would likely kill more than 52,000 people each year (without exaggeration), then the paradox vanishes.

This argument is that the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few.  This type of 'ends justifies the means' reasoning is not something that I thought the Libertarian ideology allowed for.

That brings up new questions.  If the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few . . . then if one man's harvested organs can keep 12 men alive, would a Libertarian argue that the one guy should forcibly have his life ended for others?

If no, why not?  How is that different than killing people by driving your car (under the understanding that taking away the car might cause the deaths of others)?

Boofinator

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Agreed.  That's what I believe.  We knowingly kill those 52,000 people each year because it makes life considerably better and easier for the rest of us.  But I haven't based my whole belief system around the importance of personal freedom.

When one considers that the cohort that might die a few years early due to pollution is the same cohort most in need of cars, and that taking away their cars would likely kill more than 52,000 people each year (without exaggeration), then the paradox vanishes.

This argument is that the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few.  This type of 'ends justifies the means' reasoning is not something that I thought the Libertarian ideology allowed for.

That brings up new questions.  If the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few . . . then if one man's harvested organs can keep 12 men alive, would a Libertarian argue that the one guy should forcibly have his life ended for others?

If no, why not?  How is that different than killing people by driving your car (under the understanding that taking away the car might cause the deaths of others)?

What is liberty? I don't think liberty is defined as the avoidance of any possible harm from others' actions.

GuitarStv

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I don't think liberty is defined as avoidance of all possible harm from other's actions either.  That has nothing to do with my question though.

bacchi

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Agreed.  That's what I believe.  We knowingly kill those 52,000 people each year because it makes life considerably better and easier for the rest of us.  But I haven't based my whole belief system around the importance of personal freedom.

When one considers that the cohort that might die a few years early due to pollution is the same cohort most in need of cars, and that taking away their cars would likely kill more than 52,000 people each year (without exaggeration), then the paradox vanishes.

This argument is that the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few.  This type of 'ends justifies the means' reasoning is not something that I thought the Libertarian ideology allowed for.

That brings up new questions.  If the good of the many overrides the liberty of the few . . . then if one man's harvested organs can keep 12 men alive, would a Libertarian argue that the one guy should forcibly have his life ended for others?

If no, why not?  How is that different than killing people by driving your car (under the understanding that taking away the car might cause the deaths of others)?

What is liberty? I don't think liberty is defined as the avoidance of any possible harm from others' actions.


https://www.lp.org/platform/

Quote from: libertarianparty
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.

The Libertarian Party defines "values" very narrowly even though it sounds like they define them very broadly. Meaning that, ultimately, you're right. It's just another party of people defining which values are important and which aren't but with some hand-waving about "universal rights" and so on.

GuitarStv

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Quote from: libertarianparty
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.

The Libertarian Party defines "values" very narrowly even though it sounds like they define them very broadly. Meaning that, ultimately, you're right. It's just another party of people defining which values are important and which aren't but with some hand-waving about "universal rights" and so on.

I'm very confused about the 'world of liberty' quote.  It seems to be directly in opposition to the automobile problem . . . where people are forced to sacrifice their lives to benefit others.  I don't see how you can both be 'sovereign over your own life' and forced to sacrifice it for others.

Is there a better way of explaining this, or is it just total hypocrisy?

Kris

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https://www.lp.org/platform/

Quote from: libertarianparty
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of give a shit about others.



I mean, essentially, to me it sounds like that's what "liberty" is for them.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 09:52:38 AM by Kris »

lemonlyman

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You guys are framing the general desire to maximize personal freedom in absolutist terms which is nonsensical and unproductive. No political ideology is equipped to answer trolley car problems. Why not discuss the platform and policy proposals?

Boofinator

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I don't think liberty is defined as avoidance of all possible harm from other's actions either.  That has nothing to do with my question though.

All I can see are absurd arguments that no (well, perhaps that's extreme) Libertarian would ever agree with. You seem to equate liberty with a protective bubble, or with the good of the many, but neither come close to replicating the term. Please break it down into basic logic so I can understand your train of thought.

Here's what is unique about Libertarians: People exist on a spectrum, between a strong belief in personal liberties and a strong belief in authoritarian government, with of course the majority of people somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. It just so happens that Libertarians fear the strong government and hence advocate for personal liberty (a la Ayn Ran, George Orwell, etc.), whereas authoritarians rail against the anarchy they perceive in Liberalism. That's it. There is no unique dogma that results in paradoxical conundrums, at least for rational Libertarians. It just so happens that their view of the world is different in one particular respect than most of us, and that is ok.

GuitarStv

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You guys are framing the general desire to maximize personal freedom in absolutist terms which is nonsensical and unproductive. No political ideology is equipped to answer trolley car problems. Why not discuss the platform and policy proposals?

I disagree with you.  If "all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others", then we have answered all trolley car problems quite succinctly.

The problem I have is that we've proven that no Libertarian actually follows this path of liberty in reality.  Which kinda makes me say . . . 'so why bother saying it to begin with?'.



I don't think liberty is defined as avoidance of all possible harm from other's actions either.  That has nothing to do with my question though.
All I can see are absurd arguments that no (well, perhaps that's extreme) Libertarian would ever agree with. You seem to equate liberty with a protective bubble, or with the good of the many, but neither come close to replicating the term. Please break it down into basic logic so I can understand your train of thought.

I'm currently equating liberty with the definition from the Libertarian party platform.  You might be getting confused/tripped up by this . . . as that definition is not what Libertarians follow - just what they say.  What Libertarians say is patently ridiculous, which is likely why they don't follow it.  But that makes me question why they say it at all.  Why do you think this occurs?


Here's what is unique about Libertarians: People exist on a spectrum, between a strong belief in personal liberties and a strong belief in authoritarian government, with of course the majority of people somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. It just so happens that Libertarians fear the strong government and hence advocate for personal liberty (a la Ayn Ran, George Orwell, etc.), whereas authoritarians rail against the anarchy they perceive in Liberalism. That's it. There is no unique dogma that results in paradoxical conundrums, at least for rational Libertarians. It just so happens that their view of the world is different in one particular respect than most of us, and that is ok.

Sure, if your definition of Libertarian is limited to 'wants less government' then we've got no problem.  I understand that viewpoint and agree with it in some cases.  It's when the term 'liberty' is blatantly misused that I take issue, and is the source of the paradoxical conundrums (at least for rational Libertarians).

LennStar

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So then I'm confused.  In this thread, not a single Libertarian has provided a single reason in defense of driving cars at the cost of the death of others - but none have argued against the freedom to drive.

Because this is luddite-ism. ICE cars are better than steam fired with coal or wood which is better than horses.  No one said they don't have moral hazard. 

The libertarian you seem to be arguing with lives on an island by themselves, living off their own back exclusively.  That person doesn't exist.
Most of the people who say "I am a libertarian and therefore..." seem to be right this kind though.
And funnily enough one third of them seems also of a very strict "don't come here muslim / poor / etc." opinion. Because if some poor people comes here, he needs to be taken care of, they say, and I don't want to be forced (tax is theft) to care for others. They should care for themselves wherever they are now.

lemonlyman

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You guys are framing the general desire to maximize personal freedom in absolutist terms which is nonsensical and unproductive. No political ideology is equipped to answer trolley car problems. Why not discuss the platform and policy proposals?

I disagree with you.  If "all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others", then we have answered all trolley car problems quite succinctly.

The problem I have is that we've proven that no Libertarian actually follows this path of liberty in reality.  Which kinda makes me say . . . 'so why bother saying it to begin with?'.

Absolutist interpretation. If you can't move on to general applications of a platform, you'll be stuck there indefinitely. Just as no socialist is a absolutely a Socialist with the platform posted on the USA party website with no room for interpretation. If you're questioning, "Why have labels?" That's a different discussion.

GuitarStv

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You guys are framing the general desire to maximize personal freedom in absolutist terms which is nonsensical and unproductive. No political ideology is equipped to answer trolley car problems. Why not discuss the platform and policy proposals?

I disagree with you.  If "all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others", then we have answered all trolley car problems quite succinctly.

The problem I have is that we've proven that no Libertarian actually follows this path of liberty in reality.  Which kinda makes me say . . . 'so why bother saying it to begin with?'.

Absolutist interpretation. If you can't move on to general applications of a platform, you'll be stuck there indefinitely. Just as no socialist is a absolutely a Socialist with the platform posted on the USA party website with no room for interpretation. If you're questioning, "Why have labels?" That's a different discussion.

OK.


If my interpretation is absolutist and therefore wrong, then educate me.  This is the reason I was asking specific questions about policy.  Where exactly is the line?

It appears to be OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) so that others can drive a car because cars benefit everyone as a whole and probably net save lives.  So . . .

1.  Is it OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) to harvest their organs if this will save the lives of dozens of other people?  If not, why?
2.  Is it OK to take away someone's sovereignty if doing so makes the lives of millions better/easier?  (For example, if someone invents a cure for all forms of cancer, but will only sell doses of the cure for 50 million dollars each . . . should they be forced to provide this cure to others for less money?  If not, why?

Boofinator

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I'm currently equating liberty with the definition from the Libertarian party platform.  You might be getting confused/tripped up by this . . . as that definition is not what Libertarians follow - just what they say.  What Libertarians say is patently ridiculous, which is likely why they don't follow it.  But that makes me question why they say it at all.  Why do you think this occurs?

Ok, let's have a literal reading of some American Parties' Platforms:

https://www.lp.org/platform/

Quote from: libertarianparty
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others.

I'd say that's literally a definition of anarchy.

*****

https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/preamble/

Quote
Democrats believe that cooperation is better than conflict, unity is better than division, empowerment is better than resentment, and bridges are better than walls.

Hmmm, didn't see any walls get torn down at the White House during Obama's term, did you?

*****

https://gop.com/platform/preamble/

Quote
We believe the Constitution was written not as a flexible document, but as our enduring covenant.

Yeah....

Boofinator

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It appears to be OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) so that others can drive a car because cars benefit everyone as a whole and probably net save lives.  So . . .

This is faulty logic. Nobody is taking anybody's lives in your scenario. And yes, Libertarians do address pollution (though they are often in the camp that thinks everything is and will be fine, and less government regulation is needed rather than more).

GuitarStv

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It appears to be OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) so that others can drive a car because cars benefit everyone as a whole and probably net save lives.  So . . .

This is faulty logic. Nobody is taking anybody's lives in your scenario. And yes, Libertarians do address pollution (though they are often in the camp that thinks everything is and will be fine, and less government regulation is needed rather than more).

52,000 Americans each year have their lives taken away directly because because of exhaust and particulates spewed from automobiles.

So yes, car drivers are taking away lives.


In what way to Libertarians address pollution meaningfully for these 52,000 people?

ctuser1

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Quote
Democrats believe that cooperation is better than conflict, unity is better than division, empowerment is better than resentment, and bridges are better than walls.

Hmmm, didn't see any walls get torn down at the White House during Obama's term, did you?

I remember differently.

Obama's signature achievement - Obamacare - was essentially RomneyCare, and is something the right used to advocate for before Obama appropriated it. I think the left would much rather have preferred a single-payer model that has proven unquestionably more effective as a model for healthcare everywhere in the civilized world.

It seemed to me that he tried quite a few bridges and tried tearing down a lot of (figurative) walls for quite some time.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:09:10 PM by ctuser1 »

Boofinator

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It appears to be OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) so that others can drive a car because cars benefit everyone as a whole and probably net save lives.  So . . .

This is faulty logic. Nobody is taking anybody's lives in your scenario. And yes, Libertarians do address pollution (though they are often in the camp that thinks everything is and will be fine, and less government regulation is needed rather than more).

52,000 Americans each year have their lives taken away directly because because of exhaust and particulates spewed from automobiles.

So yes, car drivers are taking away lives.


In what way to Libertarians address pollution meaningfully for these 52,000 people?

Diabetes takes away 80,000 lives every year in the U.S. In what way do you propose addressing people's addiction to sugar?

Really, feel free to pick any cause of premature death to fit your desired scenario. The bottom line is that these things aren't taking people's liberty, at least not any more than common illnesses that are spread by absolutely everyone.

GuitarStv

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It appears to be OK to take away someone's sovereignty (and life) so that others can drive a car because cars benefit everyone as a whole and probably net save lives.  So . . .

This is faulty logic. Nobody is taking anybody's lives in your scenario. And yes, Libertarians do address pollution (though they are often in the camp that thinks everything is and will be fine, and less government regulation is needed rather than more).

52,000 Americans each year have their lives taken away directly because because of exhaust and particulates spewed from automobiles.

So yes, car drivers are taking away lives.


In what way to Libertarians address pollution meaningfully for these 52,000 people?

Diabetes takes away 80,000 lives every year in the U.S. In what way do you propose addressing people's addiction to sugar?

Really, feel free to pick any cause of premature death to fit your desired scenario. The bottom line is that these things aren't taking people's liberty, at least not any more than common illnesses that are spread by absolutely everyone.

Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

Boofinator

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

bacchi

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

All of us have values that we don't want sacrificed for others. The libertarian position is just a way to put a gilded exterior on a similar set of beliefs about what and what shouldn't be controlled/operated/covered by governments. The government is only minimal because some beliefs of others are ignored.

GuitarStv

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

No, I'm suggesting that people should take personal responsibility for their actions.

Burning gas in automobiles kills people.  If you drive an automobile, that places personal responsibility for those deaths at least partly upon your shoulders.

That's very different than sugar addiction . . . where I'm not personally involved in anything to do with the matter.  Should the government regulate sugar?  I don't know, my natural inclination would be no though.

Boofinator

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

All of us have values that we don't want sacrificed for others. The libertarian position is just a way to put a gilded exterior on a similar set of beliefs about what and what shouldn't be controlled/operated/covered by governments. The government is only minimal because some beliefs of others are ignored.

I agree, though in what way is Libertarianism any more gilded than Mustachianism? I would contend that Libertarians just see individual liberty in the same light as Mustachians see money and or environmental duty: as something to hold as a first principle, but not to hold dogmatically sacrosanct.

Boofinator

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

No, I'm suggesting that people should take personal responsibility for their actions.

Burning gas in automobiles kills people.  If you drive an automobile, that places personal responsibility for those deaths at least partly upon your shoulders.

That's very different than sugar addiction . . . where I'm not personally involved in anything to do with the matter.  Should the government regulate sugar?  I don't know, my natural inclination would be no though.

And the highest-level Libertarians in government have stated pollution is bad, though it seems some prefer remedial actions exclusively through private tort (Ron Paul, https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/o6wf4/ron_paul_on_pollution/), while others prefer some government action, albeit limited (Gary Johnson, https://cleanenergy.org/blog/where-gov-johnson-stands-on-energy/).

As far as I can tell, you're simply setting up strawmen that do not exist. One can claim their stance on issues is extreme, and I would agree, but I wouldn't call it logically inconsistent.

GuitarStv

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Is there an action that I'm could stop doing that addicts people to sugar?  There is an action that I could stop doing that kills people due to pollution caused by automobiles.

When the premature death is caused by something I do, I am responsible for it . . . right?

So you're suggesting we should eliminate sugar production and import? I'm sure that would go a long ways toward reducing sugar addiction.

No, I'm suggesting that people should take personal responsibility for their actions.

Burning gas in automobiles kills people.  If you drive an automobile, that places personal responsibility for those deaths at least partly upon your shoulders.

That's very different than sugar addiction . . . where I'm not personally involved in anything to do with the matter.  Should the government regulate sugar?  I don't know, my natural inclination would be no though.

And the highest-level Libertarians in government have stated pollution is bad, though it seems some prefer remedial actions exclusively through private tort (Ron Paul, https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/o6wf4/ron_paul_on_pollution/), while others prefer some government action, albeit limited (Gary Johnson, https://cleanenergy.org/blog/where-gov-johnson-stands-on-energy/).

As far as I can tell, you're simply setting up strawmen that do not exist. One can claim their stance on issues is extreme, and I would agree, but I wouldn't call it logically inconsistent.

Here's the logically inconsistent part:

If the liberty of the individual is more important than utility for the many, then there should be plenty of Libertarian outrage against driving cars.  After all, when you choose to use an automobile you also choose to contribute to the death of another.

So far though, in this thread not one Libertarian has indicated a concern with driving (at least not beyond a wishy-washy "pollution is bad m'kay").  If liberty of the individual is not more important than utility for many, then it opens a whole can of worms . . . as many Libertarian policies seem to be based upon this principle.