Author Topic: why I support the minimum wage increase  (Read 22439 times)

griffin

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2014, 05:50:22 PM »

We didn't get rich...we didn't even make it as a going concern.  But how was our contribution a net negative?  It's easy to say, "They probably shouldn't be in business in the first place..."  We probably shouldn't have been.  But we weren't a drain on society.  We didn't hurt our employees for a year.  We gave them jobs that otherwise wouldn't have existed.  We didn't somehow divert resources from some other enterprise that would have spent it better and made a better impact on the economy.  We created SOMETHING out of NOTHING and generated economic activity.  It wasn't enough to meet the standards of people who think only businesses that can pay a "living wage" should exist.  But it wasn't nothing, and it wasn't negative.

First off, in no way am I saying that small business owners are living some kind of easy/dream life. I worked at a small ice cream shop for a long time, and saw how much effort the owner put into keeping the store afloat. Your company may not have been a drain on the economy, but there are a couple things to consider here.
1.) Your pizza shop was not the source of most employee's livelihood. As you say, the people working at your shop were mostly teens and college kids (who's lifestyles were almost certainly subsidized by parents earning significantly more than minimum wage). As a result, these people were probably not drawing on government aid programs to the degree that a single parent would. Perhaps a minimum wage based on age could help with this problem, but I think we can all see why that would be problematic.

2.) You mention tips, so it is very likely that none of your employees were even earning minimum wage! At the ice cream shop I ended up more along the lines of $11-12/hour. This is very different from $7.25.

3.) You say you created something out of nothing, but it seems like you probably created something by selling your house and taking out a loan that was paid off by doing something else. Not that there is anything wrong with this! Do you think you could have created an equal amount of economic activity simply by taking the amount of money spent on the business and handing it out to people on the streets? I have no idea how much the venture cost you, so of course I can't answer that question. But if [the cost of running your business]+[government subsidies (i.e. welfare for employees who don't make enough money)] < [money you are making], then your business is, by definition, a drain on the economy. It is creating less than it is taking.

Will

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2014, 06:22:37 PM »

We didn't get rich...we didn't even make it as a going concern.  But how was our contribution a net negative?  It's easy to say, "They probably shouldn't be in business in the first place..."  We probably shouldn't have been.  But we weren't a drain on society.  We didn't hurt our employees for a year.  We gave them jobs that otherwise wouldn't have existed.  We didn't somehow divert resources from some other enterprise that would have spent it better and made a better impact on the economy.  We created SOMETHING out of NOTHING and generated economic activity.  It wasn't enough to meet the standards of people who think only businesses that can pay a "living wage" should exist.  But it wasn't nothing, and it wasn't negative.

First off, in no way am I saying that small business owners are living some kind of easy/dream life. I worked at a small ice cream shop for a long time, and saw how much effort the owner put into keeping the store afloat. Your company may not have been a drain on the economy, but there are a couple things to consider here.
1.) Your pizza shop was not the source of most employee's livelihood. As you say, the people working at your shop were mostly teens and college kids (who's lifestyles were almost certainly subsidized by parents earning significantly more than minimum wage). As a result, these people were probably not drawing on government aid programs to the degree that a single parent would. Perhaps a minimum wage based on age could help with this problem, but I think we can all see why that would be problematic.

2.) You mention tips, so it is very likely that none of your employees were even earning minimum wage! At the ice cream shop I ended up more along the lines of $11-12/hour. This is very different from $7.25.

3.) You say you created something out of nothing, but it seems like you probably created something by selling your house and taking out a loan that was paid off by doing something else. Not that there is anything wrong with this! Do you think you could have created an equal amount of economic activity simply by taking the amount of money spent on the business and handing it out to people on the streets? I have no idea how much the venture cost you, so of course I can't answer that question. But if [the cost of running your business]+[government subsidies (i.e. welfare for employees who don't make enough money)] < [money you are making], then your business is, by definition, a drain on the economy. It is creating less than it is taking.

These quotes are all from this story:  http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/23/smallbusiness/minimum-wage-exemptions/

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Under federal law, an employer doesn't have to pay the minimum wage to a worker if the company's annual gross sales are less than $500,000 and if it doesn't do any business across state lines, according to Tsedeye Gebreselassie, a staff attorney at the National Employment Law Project.

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Federal law allows employers to pay $4.25 an hour -- $3 less than the current federal minimum -- to anyone under 20 for the first 90 days of employment, according to the Congressional Research Service.

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Federal law also lets employers pay 85% of the federal minimum (or $6.16/hour) to full-time students working in retail or service businesses, in an agricultural occupation, or at an institute of higher education.

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Currently, under federal law, employers only need to pay tipped workers a minimum wage of $2.13 an hour -- if that wage plus the tips push the worker's pay to at least the $7.25 federal minimum.

Not sure who was saying anything negative about small businesses.  Looks like there are numerous ways to get out of paying a minimum. 

MooseOutFront

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2014, 08:32:36 AM »
Thanks for the hands on insight bookworm.  It's easy to sit back and think "Wal-Mart doesn't pay their people enough" without considering the effects on so many businesses like yours whose employees didn't even work there SEEKING a living wage.

greenmimama

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2014, 08:36:28 AM »
What about a very simple explanation:

Raising minimum wage, WILL raise the prices on a lot of items, maybe not in the first 60 days or so, but it will, so raising minimum wage, is in essence a pay decrease for everyone!

It's like saying, I'm going to pay you 25% more, but your new healthcare will cost you 30% more, so it's really a pay decrease, but getting a raise will make most people spend more (not here in the MMM community, but most people yes) So they will go further into debt and be worse off.

I am the first person that hates unjust practices, I don't want people barely scraping by and not able to feed their families, I am just not sure this is the way to help them. No I don't have a solution, I wish I did.

Like previously mentioned, the upper CEO's could cut their salaries and they could make less profit to cover the increase in salaries, the huge companies anyways, but they won't, they will raise prices, because they know that people won't actually stop coming.

Will

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2014, 08:45:16 AM »
What about a very simple explanation:

Raising minimum wage, WILL raise the prices on a lot of items, maybe not in the first 60 days or so, but it will, so raising minimum wage, is in essence a pay decrease for everyone!

.... No I don't have a solution, I wish I did.


Well, your solution is right there in your premise!  We need to lower the minimum wage, prices WILL fall on a lot of items, so lowering the minimum wage is in essence a pay raise for everyone!

griffin

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2014, 04:06:28 PM »
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your point OP, but I took away something like this:
The current cost of living is being held artificially low by government aid programs that are paid for indirectly by tax payers and our increasing national debt. By hiking minimum wage we remove the dependence on social welfare programs, reducing taxes and national debt and offsetting the increase in product prices.
It seems like most of the people against a raise in the wage have been avoiding the issue of government spending, but it is a pretty important one. As Will pointed out, there are already exceptions to the minimum wage for small businesses and young people who don't need a "living wage", so raising the minimum wage should not even effect mom and pop stores. I've yet to be presented with a reason as to why Walmart employees should receive food stamps when Costco is able to offer very similar prices while paying their cashiers 45k a year.

This isn't an attack on anyone, of course, I'm legitimately interested in hearing other points of view!

clifp

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2014, 09:45:09 PM »
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your point OP, but I took away something like this:
The current cost of living is being held artificially low by government aid programs that are paid for indirectly by tax payers and our increasing national debt. By hiking minimum wage we remove the dependence on social welfare programs, reducing taxes and national debt and offsetting the increase in product prices.
It seems like most of the people against a raise in the wage have been avoiding the issue of government spending, but it is a pretty important one. As Will pointed out, there are already exceptions to the minimum wage for small businesses and young people who don't need a "living wage", so raising the minimum wage should not even effect mom and pop stores. I've yet to be presented with a reason as to why Walmart employees should receive food stamps when Costco is able to offer very similar prices while paying their cashiers 45k a year.

This isn't an attack on anyone, of course, I'm legitimately interested in hearing other points of view!

Those are good questions. My short answer is because it costs less taxpayer dollars to provide a minimum wage worker with food stamps and EITC, than it cost to provide benefit for someone without a job.  Secondly, why isn't Costco hiring more workers?

The government subsidy for min. or near min wage workers is relatively modest.  For example the average SNAP (food stamp) beneficiary receive just under $2,000/year, while a mom with young kids may get as much as $7,000-$8,000/year it is still much less than she earns. So what if the wage increase to $10.10 as the President propose or $15/hour as many our advocating. One of the  consequence will be employees will hire less workers, they will be replaced by automation, or they will simply offer less service, for example self check out replace 4-8 jobs with one.  Now there are lot of conflicting studies about the impact on minimum wage rise on unemployment.  But it is important to understand that virtually all of the studies involved modest increase in the minimum wage of say <$1/hour.  We simply don't know what the impact of a $2.85 or more than doubling of the wage  will be.   It will certainly result in some unemployment, either firing of existing workers or more likely primarily a hiring freeze.

Unemployment averages about $290/week (Q1/13 data) after the unemployment is exhausted, then they sometimes they can get TANFL (welfare).   A key component of TANFL is a jobs training program.  Jobs training is generally money well spent, but it is also not cheap, typically at least $20K/year. Meaning we can provide 10 folks foods stamps for the cost of putting one person in jobs training. More over much of the jobs training involves basic work skills, show up every day on time, treat the customers well, respect your boss.   All those skills can be learned just as well at McDonalds or Walmart on their dime instead of on the governments.   So it only takes a small increase in the unemployment rate to complete cancel the savings we get by moving people off SNAP, EITC due to higher wages. 

Now this is the route the many young people who can't find job will follow.  However for a significant minority of young people especially for those who come from poor families they are likely to stay screw the system.  I tried to find job nobody would hire me and dealing drugs or stealing is much better way of making money. Obviously the cost to society for those folks far exceeds subsidizing McDonalds and Walmart employees.

I am huge fan of Costco. I shop there at least once a week, my basic attitude is if I can't buy at Costco I don't need it. However, people who think Costco pays people good wages why can't Walmart,Target or McDonalds do the same, are not understanding the difference between Costco.  Megan McArdle has written many articles this here is one. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-08-27/why-walmart-will-never-pay-like-costco

First Costco customer are upper middle class  (median income >$80K) who spends over $200 at time.  Costco makes most of their profit from their $55/$110 membership fees and generally go once or twice a month. Walmart customers are lower middle class (median income <$40K), many would have a hard time coming with $55 membership, the average Walmart purchase is less than $30 and typically customer shop their twice a week. I go to Walmart about every other month.

Costco has only 1/2 as many employees/square foot as Walmart, and has 3 times the revenue/per employee and 50% more profit per employee.  While I love Costco, I wish they'd bag my groceries rather than just give me a big box if they haven' t run out. I also wish they had wider selection.   We have a big problem with unemployment so why doesn't Costco be a good American company and hire more workers?  Somebody to bag my purchases and few more guys to stock a wider selection, Costco prices are very low they could raise the a little bit, and people will still buy them, and so what if the earn a bit less profits? More people need good jobs like Costco provides.

As other have noted there is a significant difference in the quality between Costco and Walmart employees (Obviously this is a generalization).  By virtue of higher pay Costco does hire smarter folks with a better attitude and are able to take the initiative to make customers happy.  (I still remember the Costco employee who spent 30 minutes looking for a 25 lb turkey for me near Xmas).
But as constantly tell my friends remember that 1/2 the country as an  IQ below 100 and/or below average work skills.  Wallmart and McDonalds provide important step to acquiring these skills for the other half.




griffin

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2014, 05:02:08 PM »
Thanks for the explanation - that makes a lot of sense! It's a bit disturbing to think that many people's contribution to the workforce is valued at less than living wage. I suppose that's a more important issue than the minimum wage.

electriceagle

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 06:19:31 AM »
In my opinion, there is a major issue underlying our higher structural unemployment rate and the calls for a higher minimum wage: the number of people who cannot do a job that economically justifies either a) a base standard of living or b) the level of education required to do their job is growing.

Its not the fault of the folks who can't find work at a living wage; they're not getting slower or stupider. In fact, their productivity has grown by leaps and bounds even as their wages have stagnated.

Its also not the fault of "the rich", "CEOs", "the Chinese" or other targets of the blame game. Insofar as they follow the letter and the spirit of the law, business owners are keeping their enterprises afloat within the legal, social, technological and economic structures that are around them.

The cause is automation.

In the past, anyone who was willing to work could find a job picking things up, looking at them and putting them in their designated place. Anyone who was willing to train for a year could find a job picking things up, deciding what kind of change to make to them and then putting them down. The relationship between the supply of work and the supply of workers was balanced.

Those jobs are gone. In particular, jobs that required 1-2 years of training + light manual labor have been automated away and are not coming back. This has pushed a lot of people from light skilled labor to manual labor and some people from manual labor to long-term unemployment.

Of course, those folks still have to eat. Hence the calls for a higher minimum wage and more social benefits in the US and Europe. Those proposals address symptoms of the core problem (not inherently a bad thing; if you break your arm, you need a painkiller) but don't address the core problem itself.

For better or worse, a higher minimum wage will make further automation more economicaly justifiable more quickly.
http://www.dailytech.com/Coke+Fountain+Drink+Machine+Mixes+Hundreds+of+Flavors/article15355c.htm
For some people, this will be good as they will train to be Coke machine repairmen. For others, it will push them out of the only job that they are qualified to do.

Those who stay employed will see a big benefit in terms of pay. The businesses around them will benefit from their increased spending.

Will there be a net benefit? Maybe, but sooner or later, we will need to solve the core problem by creating industries that employ large numbers of people in jobs where they create a lot of value.

We've done it before -- a hundred years ago, farm automation pushed large numbers of people into industrial cities. Making that work required new laws on living and working standards, plus environmental issues, but the resulting system provided an economic path for a lot of people through the 70s (ish).

What will be next?

(For the record, I am for an increased minimum wage but recognize it as a painkiller rather than a cure.)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:42:44 AM by electriceagle »

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 11:36:08 AM »
you can raise minimum wage, and not do a lot of damage, but it has to be done in waves....not all at once

and people that are talking $ 15.00 an hour are out of their minds

my wifes owns her own business with her brother (deli/market/catering/butcher shop)
6 locations, and 140 total employees

employees are split between those with skills (cooks, butchers, pastry chefs) and those without (dishwashers, cleanup, cashiers)

anyone with any skill is making at or above $ 20 hour....and a lot above for some of them
but when 500 people within a mile can all do the EXACT same job (dishwasher), what is that skill worth?

and when you raise all of the non skill laborers, what happens to those that were at the $ 12 or $ 14 dollar levels (basic office clerk etc)

i am not saying we cant make a change in the MW....probably to $ 9.00 to $ 9.50 based upon where inflation has gone

but we see what unintended consequences do everyday, with knee jerk reactions made by government

imo the real way to help, is to stop trying to teach kids that dont have the academic chops to go on to higher education algebra II.... in 8th or 9th grade

start teaching them skills that will help them make a decent living in society (plumbing, electrician, mechanic, welding, etc, etc, etc)

clifp

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 04:12:20 PM »
you can raise minimum wage, and not do a lot of damage, but it has to be done in waves....not all at once


i am not saying we cant make a change in the MW....probably to $ 9.00 to $ 9.50 based upon where inflation has gone

but we see what unintended consequences do everyday, with knee jerk reactions made by government

imo the real way to help, is to stop trying to teach kids that dont have the academic chops to go on to higher education algebra II.... in 8th or 9th grade

start teaching them skills that will help them make a decent living in society (plumbing, electrician, mechanic, welding, etc, etc, etc)

I agree and I don't have an issue seeing the minimum wage raised a couple of bucks over the next couple of years.  It is also worth noting that many states have higher minimum wages CA is at $8/hr, CT $8.70 and WA is the highest at $9.32.  Plus in state like a Hawaii eventhough the min. wage is still $7.25, with a high cost of living and low unemployment you can't actually hire anybody at $7.25. I remember right back in 2007 or so there was series of articles about how hard it was to find entry level workers.  About 10 stores/fast food places in one shopping center  in richer part of Honolulu were looking for workers. Even at $9 and $10/hour they couldn't even get applications much less workers,  the Pizza Hut resorted to flying in workers from the Big Island in the morning and flying them back in the evening. 

The real way to get the minimum wage boosted is to get the economy going and get more jobs.
Obviously easier said than done.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 08:03:17 PM »
Interesting how the argument against is always:  "Well, if we raise the minimum wage, then the price of things will have to go up!"  Really?  The billions in profits and millions paid annually to the CEOs is untouchable?

That is so funny you forgot about the Subway shop owners that are locally owned and the hairdressers or the print shops or the pet stores or the small independant resturaunts or the car washes and oil change faciliies or the yard maintanance shops or the or the or the.  You think every business has a million dollar CEO????  Plus there are taxes to be paid called pay roll taxes so when your pay roll goes up so does your taxes also the SSN taxes go up and the unemployment taxes go up so 15 per hours is more like 25 per hour and I do not know any small business that can pay that.

I didn't "forget" anyone.  I never implied that my few brief sentences encompassed the entirety of the issue.  In answer to your question, no, I don't think every business has a million dollar CEO.  What I do think is that there are a lot of businesses that do, and have billions in profits, yet claim there is no way to pay a fair livable wage without raising prices.  And that is bullshit.  With that being said, are you saying small businesses should be exempt from common decency because they are small?  And if the minimum wage was raised so that a lot of the economic safety net issues that are funded through taxes were reduced, then perhaps the various taxes you mention would be reduced as well.  Perhaps the small businesses that you know that cannot afford to pay a decent livable wage shouldn't be in business?  I'm sure the plantation owners growing cotton couldn't afford to pay the slaves a fair wage, but that didn't make slavery acceptable.

Amazing that this side always comes out

Let me ask you a question

What do you do for a living?

Let's let the owners pay more....they can afford it. Never mind what it took for them to get to that place. How many years of making little to nothing until finally the company went from red to black.

Or we can try to figure what what they invested...and finally what they are now getting as a return on that investment.

I am second in command to one such owner. Yes...he earns a very nice living. He employs 145 people and our business is profitable. I don't get why so many feel entitled to give his money away. He pays nearly 40 percent to uncle Sammie....but that apparently isn't enough

Will

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2014, 08:01:16 AM »
Interesting how the argument against is always:  "Well, if we raise the minimum wage, then the price of things will have to go up!"  Really?  The billions in profits and millions paid annually to the CEOs is untouchable?

That is so funny you forgot about the Subway shop owners that are locally owned and the hairdressers or the print shops or the pet stores or the small independant resturaunts or the car washes and oil change faciliies or the yard maintanance shops or the or the or the.  You think every business has a million dollar CEO????  Plus there are taxes to be paid called pay roll taxes so when your pay roll goes up so does your taxes also the SSN taxes go up and the unemployment taxes go up so 15 per hours is more like 25 per hour and I do not know any small business that can pay that.

I didn't "forget" anyone.  I never implied that my few brief sentences encompassed the entirety of the issue.  In answer to your question, no, I don't think every business has a million dollar CEO.  What I do think is that there are a lot of businesses that do, and have billions in profits, yet claim there is no way to pay a fair livable wage without raising prices.  And that is bullshit.  With that being said, are you saying small businesses should be exempt from common decency because they are small?  And if the minimum wage was raised so that a lot of the economic safety net issues that are funded through taxes were reduced, then perhaps the various taxes you mention would be reduced as well.  Perhaps the small businesses that you know that cannot afford to pay a decent livable wage shouldn't be in business?  I'm sure the plantation owners growing cotton couldn't afford to pay the slaves a fair wage, but that didn't make slavery acceptable.

Amazing that this side always comes out

Let me ask you a question

What do you do for a living?

Let's let the owners pay more....they can afford it. Never mind what it took for them to get to that place. How many years of making little to nothing until finally the company went from red to black.

Or we can try to figure what what they invested...and finally what they are now getting as a return on that investment.

I am second in command to one such owner. Yes...he earns a very nice living. He employs 145 people and our business is profitable. I don't get why so many feel entitled to give his money away. He pays nearly 40 percent to uncle Sammie....but that apparently isn't enough

I'm in management.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2014, 08:25:41 AM »
in the public or private sector?


gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2014, 08:37:58 AM »

I didn't "forget" anyone.  I never implied that my few brief sentences encompassed the entirety of the issue.  In answer to your question, no, I don't think every business has a million dollar CEO.  What I do think is that there are a lot of businesses that do, and have billions in profits, yet claim there is no way to pay a fair livable wage without raising prices.  And that is bullshit.  With that being said, are you saying small businesses should be exempt from common decency because they are small?  And if the minimum wage was raised so that a lot of the economic safety net issues that are funded through taxes were reduced, then perhaps the various taxes you mention would be reduced as well.  Perhaps the small businesses that you know that cannot afford to pay a decent livable wage shouldn't be in business?  I'm sure the plantation owners growing cotton couldn't afford to pay the slaves a fair wage, but that didn't make slavery acceptable.


so....according to you, if a business cant afford to pay it's employees a "living wage", then that business really shouldnt exist in the first place

interesting concept......ok

now what do you do with the 35% unemployment rate once all of those businesses go under.....

it takes an idea, capital, and a will to make a small business a success

and 50% of them fail within two years

they provide jobs to high schoolers, seniors, people that want second jobs, and yes....even the few who work for minimum wage

they provide goods and services to the local communities

and i would bet a $ 15.00 minimum wage would put 40% or more out of business within months


Will

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2014, 08:42:41 AM »

I didn't "forget" anyone.  I never implied that my few brief sentences encompassed the entirety of the issue.  In answer to your question, no, I don't think every business has a million dollar CEO.  What I do think is that there are a lot of businesses that do, and have billions in profits, yet claim there is no way to pay a fair livable wage without raising prices.  And that is bullshit.  With that being said, are you saying small businesses should be exempt from common decency because they are small?  And if the minimum wage was raised so that a lot of the economic safety net issues that are funded through taxes were reduced, then perhaps the various taxes you mention would be reduced as well.  Perhaps the small businesses that you know that cannot afford to pay a decent livable wage shouldn't be in business?  I'm sure the plantation owners growing cotton couldn't afford to pay the slaves a fair wage, but that didn't make slavery acceptable.


so....according to you, if a business cant afford to pay it's employees a "living wage", then that business really shouldnt exist in the first place

interesting concept......ok

now what do you do with the 35% unemployment rate once all of those businesses go under.....

it takes an idea, capital, and a will to make a small business a success

and 50% of them fail within two years

they provide jobs to high schoolers, seniors, people that want second jobs, and yes....even the few who work for minimum wage

they provide goods and services to the local communities

and i would bet a $ 15.00 minimum wage would put 40% or more out of business within months

Don't put words in my mouth.  I never said that.

I will take your bet.  I can guarantee that 40% or more of the businesses in Seattle will not go out of business within months.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2014, 09:01:31 AM »
are you referring to seatac?

or seattle?

my understanding is that the minimum wage only affects seatac there at the airport....

i could be mistaken

or has seattle as a city whole changed their MW also

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »
The increase to $15 in Seattle will take place over several years based on a scale that considers the size of and benefits offered by an employer. It will apply first to many large businesses in 2017 and then to all businesses by 2021.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news/economy/seattle-minimum-wage/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

so 7 years from now, it will apply to all businesses

i still think it is too much, too fast

a raise up to 9.25 or 9.50 i think most think is fair.....and that needs to be done in 3 increments

i guess we will see.....i know that automation is the new thing in the food industry

kiosks where you place your order, and pay for your food.....no servers....just someone to bring you your food when it is done

a lot of places will look into this technology, and replace workers.....

so.....is it better to have a job at $ 9.00 hr or no job at $ 15.00 hour?

MooseOutFront

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2014, 12:23:41 PM »
I think the trend will be to prefer no job and for your boss to fork over more of his lucrative bonuses he pays himself to make up for the jobs lost to automation.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2014, 02:09:48 PM »
well....based upon the guy i work for

that has as much chance as a snowball in hell

he expects everyone to contribute.....my point of view also

we will always have a small percentage that physically or mentally cannot participate....those we have and will continue to help through whatever means they need

the ones that CAN but for one reason or another choose not to participate will be the ones that other remedies will have to be tried

ender

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2014, 05:37:46 AM »
Sure. Drive up the cost so much that they just go out of business. that'll show em. Businesses are in business to make money, not friends.
It seems like you missed his point. If the businesses cannot be profitable without government subsidies in the form of welfare programs, then they should go out of business. If the cost of paying their employees a living wage causes them to go bankrupt then there is a problem with their business model.

The flaw with this thinking is the assumption that all employees are adding economic value considerably greater than their wages.

This leads to the conclusion that raising their wages result in the employer still employing them as it remains in the employer's best interest.

Unfortunately this is not the case for many paid close to minimum wage.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2014, 07:35:53 AM »
Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your point OP, but I took away something like this:
The current cost of living is being held artificially low by government aid programs that are paid for indirectly by tax payers and our increasing national debt. By hiking minimum wage we remove the dependence on social welfare programs, reducing taxes and national debt and offsetting the increase in product prices.
It seems like most of the people against a raise in the wage have been avoiding the issue of government spending, but it is a pretty important one. As Will pointed out, there are already exceptions to the minimum wage for small businesses and young people who don't need a "living wage", so raising the minimum wage should not even effect mom and pop stores. I've yet to be presented with a reason as to why Walmart employees should receive food stamps when Costco is able to offer very similar prices while paying their cashiers 45k a year.

This isn't an attack on anyone, of course, I'm legitimately interested in hearing other points of view!

Costco is based on a very different model

How many workers do you see roaming Costco aisles?
How many do you see roaming Walmart aisles?

Walmart employs 3x as many people per sq foot of floor space....

Why? Because their customer expect it

Ever go into Costco looking for a particular brand? they dont carry a lot of choices....Walmart does

Now compare the shoppers at the two stores

Costco....goes 1x every couple of weeks (average purchase was $ 130 or so if i remember correctly)
Walmart....goes 3-4 week, and average purchases are $ 30-40.....

Different store catering to a different customer base

I go to Walmart maybe once every other year

I go to Costco about once a month....

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2014, 07:41:25 AM »
Interesting how the argument against is always:  "Well, if we raise the minimum wage, then the price of things will have to go up!"  Really?  The billions in profits and millions paid annually to the CEOs is untouchable?

That is so funny you forgot about the Subway shop owners that are locally owned and the hairdressers or the print shops or the pet stores or the small independant resturaunts or the car washes and oil change faciliies or the yard maintanance shops or the or the or the.  You think every business has a million dollar CEO????  Plus there are taxes to be paid called pay roll taxes so when your pay roll goes up so does your taxes also the SSN taxes go up and the unemployment taxes go up so 15 per hours is more like 25 per hour and I do not know any small business that can pay that.

I didn't "forget" anyone.  I never implied that my few brief sentences encompassed the entirety of the issue.  In answer to your question, no, I don't think every business has a million dollar CEO.  What I do think is that there are a lot of businesses that do, and have billions in profits, yet claim there is no way to pay a fair livable wage without raising prices.  And that is bullshit.  With that being said, are you saying small businesses should be exempt from common decency because they are small?  And if the minimum wage was raised so that a lot of the economic safety net issues that are funded through taxes were reduced, then perhaps the various taxes you mention would be reduced as well.  Perhaps the small businesses that you know that cannot afford to pay a decent livable wage shouldn't be in business?  I'm sure the plantation owners growing cotton couldn't afford to pay the slaves a fair wage, but that didn't make slavery acceptable.

Amazing that this side always comes out

Let me ask you a question

What do you do for a living?

Let's let the owners pay more....they can afford it. Never mind what it took for them to get to that place. How many years of making little to nothing until finally the company went from red to black.

Or we can try to figure what what they invested...and finally what they are now getting as a return on that investment.

I am second in command to one such owner. Yes...he earns a very nice living. He employs 145 people and our business is profitable. I don't get why so many feel entitled to give his money away. He pays nearly 40 percent to uncle Sammie....but that apparently isn't enough

I'm in management.

really?

in the real world?

or in some government job, or contractor job affiliated with the government

Mr Mark

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2014, 08:03:18 AM »
http://prospect.org/article/minimum-wage-101

Here's a nice article by an economics professor that expalins why a lot of the amateur economics presented above is in actuality proven to be incorrect.

An increase in minimum wage to around $10 would be net positive, and compliments EITC.

Impact on employment is minimal, and may improve productivity. A simpler overview is here.

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/interview-dube-eitc-and-minimum-wage-complements


gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2014, 09:48:13 AM »
http://prospect.org/article/minimum-wage-101

Here's a nice article by an economics professor that expalins why a lot of the amateur economics presented above is in actuality proven to be incorrect.

An increase in minimum wage to around $10 would be net positive, and compliments EITC.

Impact on employment is minimal, and may improve productivity. A simpler overview is here.

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/interview-dube-eitc-and-minimum-wage-complements

the article is at least staying within the possible

a MW raise to $ 9.00 is feasible...and doable

As a manager in a highly competitive retail business, i have zero issue with $ 9.00

We could even do it over a two year period.....7.25 to 8.15 to 9.00

And then tying that to the cpi index....most business owners will squawk but will deal

BUT....moving it from 7.25 to $ 15.00 hr in a few years is ridiculous

over a 100% raise in cost of employees....not including the ss taxes, futa, suta, etc

that they will not deal with.....they will cut those jobs, and automate every available item they can

and you might be amazed at the number of items that no longer require human intervention

the only thing stopping them before was cost....it is prohibitive.....but a 106% increase in cost of labor will make that much easier to swallow

griffin

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2014, 03:55:51 PM »
Another question: I see a lot of people saying "all the jobs will be automated", but I'm not sure I follow. If all these jobs can be automated, I don't understand why most positions have not already been automated. Is 7.25/hour some kind of sweet spot where the upfront investment into automating your positions isn't worth it? It seems unlikely that this is the case across all businesses. In san francisco minimum wage is something like $10/hour; why hasn't McDonald's automated its positions in that city yet?

Will

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2014, 07:49:38 PM »
Another question: I see a lot of people saying "all the jobs will be automated", but I'm not sure I follow. If all these jobs can be automated, I don't understand why most positions have not already been automated. Is 7.25/hour some kind of sweet spot where the upfront investment into automating your positions isn't worth it? It seems unlikely that this is the case across all businesses. In san francisco minimum wage is something like $10/hour; why hasn't McDonald's automated its positions in that city yet?

Because it's a bullshit argument.

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2014, 04:04:08 AM »
Another question: I see a lot of people saying "all the jobs will be automated", but I'm not sure I follow. If all these jobs can be automated, I don't understand why most positions have not already been automated. Is 7.25/hour some kind of sweet spot where the upfront investment into automating your positions isn't worth it? It seems unlikely that this is the case across all businesses. In san francisco minimum wage is something like $10/hour; why hasn't McDonald's automated its positions in that city yet?

Capital outlay....and yes, the sweet spot a s you call it, is right under $10.00 hr

Kiosks for ordering

Auto fry machines

Auto grills

Self order and pay machines

All are available....just a matter of  cost of employee vs cost of equipment


griffin

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2014, 01:52:47 PM »


Capital outlay....and yes, the sweet spot a s you call it, is right under $10.00 hr



Do you have a source for this? I find it difficult to believe that right under $10.00/hr is the cutoff across many different types of businesses.............................................

ncornilsen

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2014, 02:25:30 PM »
I wouldn't say its a hard-and-fast rule of $10.00 per hour. It doesn't pay to automate some jobs that we pay $42 an hour (Aerospace welders) and some jobs would still be automated if labor was $1 per hour.

But, there are many, many jobs where a $.01/hr increase in labor cost would change the IRR% calculations in favor of buying the robot. I have to think that for fast food, it would infact, be somewhere near $10.00 per hour (normalized to Portland Oregon's wage scale.)  For the record, when determining how much a project can cost per position eliminated, I can spend $125,000.  More if it improves quality.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:27:34 PM by ncornilsen »

gdgyva

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »


Capital outlay....and yes, the sweet spot a s you call it, is right under $10.00 hr



Do you have a source for this? I find it difficult to believe that right under $10.00/hr is the cutoff across many different types of businesses.............................................

i'm sorry

i am talking about my wife's business (she owns a deli/market/catering business with her brother, that employs about 140 people currently)

and since i am her accountant, i know her numbers

look into food industry automation.....

and then look at what percentage of MW workers work in the food industry

gimp

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2014, 02:26:41 PM »
This comes down to a question of: What will happen?

And we all throw around guesses. People will have a lot more money. People will be fired. Businesses will die. Businesses will automate. Costs will be passed on. And so on and so on...

The solution seems as obvious as it is impossible: just look at an area that implements a sharp rise in minimum wage and see what happens there. Of course, the bigger the area, the easier the effects are seen, but the bigger the area the less of a safe experiment it becomes. And actually figuring out the effects will be impossible due to everyone screaming the exact same thing they're screaming now, with even more anecdotal data and even less accurate data.

clifp

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2014, 09:52:25 PM »
This comes down to a question of: What will happen?

And we all throw around guesses. People will have a lot more money. People will be fired. Businesses will die. Businesses will automate. Costs will be passed on. And so on and so on...

The solution seems as obvious as it is impossible: just look at an area that implements a sharp rise in minimum wage and see what happens there. Of course, the bigger the area, the easier the effects are seen, but the bigger the area the less of a safe experiment it becomes. And actually figuring out the effects will be impossible due to everyone screaming the exact same thing they're screaming now, with even more anecdotal data and even less accurate data.

I think Seattle will provide a good test case.  A 50+% increase (Washington already has the highest min wag.) over a 3-7 (I believe) period.  Of particular interest will be to see the employment growth or any movement of business from Seattle to the suburbs of the place.

Left

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Re: why I support the minimum wage increase
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2014, 04:30:47 AM »
hm just wondering but I don't know why the government just doesn't want to give up some tax revenue and say for people making minimum wage, if the employer pays them an extra $X more up to say $10/hour then they can deduct that amount from the payroll tax. So the business owner doesn't lose money since it goes from payroll tax to just payroll for employee. The government loses payroll tax but no longer needs to give back as much at the end of the year during tax refund time and also spend less in subsidies on the poor if there are less poor people (no idea how "poor" would be defined though).

I'd personally favor making public companies giving employees giving each person some stock as part of the wage. So even the lowest person gets some part of the company and as the company does better, they get part of the earnings since their wage won't increase with the stock price. I know, it leaves all the eggs in the basket but they can sell it after a year or something. Like if a company stock is worth $100 but the janitor only makes $7/hr, he'd still get $7/hr X 40 hours + 1 stock option on each paycheck (just give them a whole stock if the company stock is worth so much they can afford it). And would decrease turnover rates too and give the janitor extra $2600 of stocks in a year.

I feel content with what I make (~$25/hour which is still more than medium wage I know) and if the mcdonalds employee gets a raise from minimum wage, do I want mine too? Not really, even if mcdonalds employee gets a raise, he's still working what I could consider a stressful and crappy job that I wouldn't want. I get that people tend to want whatever someone else gets so if minimum wage increases everyone feels like they should get one too, but would you rather work in a clean office for $15/hr or flip burgers for $15/hr? Sure the office assistant requires a bit more "skill" but better workplace and chance of promotion is a better plus than con of being promoted from burger flipper to deep fryer.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 04:38:04 AM by eyem »

 

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