Author Topic: Why I'm not against tariffs.  (Read 3146 times)

TempusFugit

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »
Free trade is good. 
Trade should benefit all parties when conducted in an open and 'fair' manner.
Trade prevents wars.

That all being granted, there may come a point in a broken trading relationship where a 'do over' is required.  Have we reached that point with China?  I'm not educated or smart enough to know, but I grant that it is possible.

I don't think for a minute that Trump himself really has much of a coherent plan here, but I do recognize that China has abused the trading relationship by pervasive government sponsored theft of IP from companies that they force to 'partner' with domestic entities as the price for having any opportunity to market in China.  Once they have stolen the IP, they kick out the foreign company and just make the product themselves.     

Trade is such a complex welter of rules and interconnected relationships with manufacturing chains and raw materials vs manufactured products that I don't know who can really claim to understand how to fix big parts without disrupting the whole, at least for a time.  Perhaps a hard reset will help, I don't know.   But by playing bad cop, perhaps in a year or two, the next person can benefit by making deals that are better on the whole than the status quo. One step back for two steps forward and whatnot. 

It is very possible that China has more to fear from a disrupted trade relationship than do we.  For all of their vaunted economic might, they are facing some very serious issues with their economy, and that could lead to serious social upheaval. That may motivate them to move toward a more equitable trade relationship. 






Better Late

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2018, 05:38:52 PM »
I've been pondering what happens if tariffs reduce the amount of cash that flows into China and that reduction in turn reduces Chinese investments in US real estate, debt and equities. Any prohibitive taxes or the like imposed by their govt could further deter money that would typically be directed to US. Wondering if that's enough to really screw us.

scottish

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2018, 07:06:09 PM »
Free trade is good. 
Trade should benefit all parties when conducted in an open and 'fair' manner.
Trade prevents wars.

That all being granted, there may come a point in a broken trading relationship where a 'do over' is required.  Have we reached that point with China?  I'm not educated or smart enough to know, but I grant that it is possible.

I don't think for a minute that Trump himself really has much of a coherent plan here, but I do recognize that China has abused the trading relationship by pervasive government sponsored theft of IP from companies that they force to 'partner' with domestic entities as the price for having any opportunity to market in China.  Once they have stolen the IP, they kick out the foreign company and just make the product themselves.     

Trade is such a complex welter of rules and interconnected relationships with manufacturing chains and raw materials vs manufactured products that I don't know who can really claim to understand how to fix big parts without disrupting the whole, at least for a time.  Perhaps a hard reset will help, I don't know.   But by playing bad cop, perhaps in a year or two, the next person can benefit by making deals that are better on the whole than the status quo. One step back for two steps forward and whatnot. 

It is very possible that China has more to fear from a disrupted trade relationship than do we.  For all of their vaunted economic might, they are facing some very serious issues with their economy, and that could lead to serious social upheaval. That may motivate them to move toward a more equitable trade relationship.

I don't buy this argument at all.

As an analogy, in software development there's a tendency for a software team to want to rewrite the product from scratch and 'do it right this time.'
But this approach is doomed.   The delivery is late, you have to go through the whole initial set of quality problems again, and then you have to try and convince your customers they should pay to upgrade to a product with less maturity, less features and more bugs.

Trade is even worse.   Destroying all the existing trade agreements and hoping to come up with something better is a colossal waste of time and effort that could be better spent on other things, like fixing health care, fixing the country's finances, improving competitiveness, ...
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gentmach

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2018, 08:35:06 AM »
My hours at work have been cut in half due to the Tariff business. I've been negatively affected but understand that things weren't so great for everyone.

If the big trade deals are 20 yaers old or so, we have something similar to what Thomas Jefferson called "The Tyranny of the Dead." Essentially we need to adapt to changing circumstances with new deals and discuss what was working and what wasn't working.

Yes, we have sacrificed the stable platform for choas for the time being. Stability can lead to stagnation though.

How many of us would even be discussing trade policies if Trump hadn't flipped the board over?
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PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2018, 08:41:33 AM »
If the big trade deals are 20 yaers old or so, we have something similar to what Thomas Jefferson called "The Tyranny of the Dead." Essentially we need to adapt to changing circumstances with new deals and discuss what was working and what wasn't working.

That's a great idea, but it certainly isn't what Trump is doing. We could be taking a long, hard look at our trading relationship with China without destroying NAFTA, which will destroy the North American automobile manufacturing supply chain which has benefited everyone involved.

BookLoverL

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2018, 12:52:37 AM »
I do wonder if part of the issue isn't just that these big multi-lateral trade deals are popular now. If you make bilateral trade deals between pairs of countries, surely it'd be much easier to find a deal that genuinely benefits both sides, rather than having to balance the interests of multiple countries, even though there'd be more separate negotiations to do to get deals with the same number of countries.

I still think tariffs are useful in certain circumstances, and the outright dismissal of them by the mainstream neoliberal globalist view is unfair.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2018, 08:06:33 AM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

Really? NAFTA has been in force now for 25 years, but Canadian dairy tariffs are still in place.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-canada-dairy/562508/

Don't get me wrong: T.rump doesn't know s*** from shinola, but it doesn't mean he's wrong here.

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

I'm not entirely sure that the US would make much money selling dairy to Canada even without the tariffs to be honest.

It was mentioned earlier, but in Canada you're not allowed to sell dairy products pumped full of growth hormones as is typical of US dairy.  There are different standards in different provinces, but antibiotic usage in Canada is much more strictly measured and tested than in the US.  Because of this, most of the milk currently made in the US wouldn't be eligible for sale across the border anyway . . . so I don't believe that there would be significant benefit to Canadian consumers.
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Wexler

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2018, 09:14:09 AM »
My hours at work have been cut in half due to the Tariff business. I've been negatively affected but understand that things weren't so great for everyone.

If the big trade deals are 20 yaers old or so, we have something similar to what Thomas Jefferson called "The Tyranny of the Dead." Essentially we need to adapt to changing circumstances with new deals and discuss what was working and what wasn't working.

Yes, we have sacrificed the stable platform for choas for the time being. Stability can lead to stagnation though.

How many of us would even be discussing trade policies if Trump hadn't flipped the board over?

Gentmach-did you vote for Trump?  If so, I think you could at least make up some of your lost income in the form of paid meals with New York Times reporters.  They have an insatiable thirst for articles in the Trumpenfreude genre, or "Look At How Trump Has Screwed Over His Supporters But They Still Think He's Their Savior For Reasons That Are Definitely About Economic Anxiety."  I think those meals have to take place in diners in the heartland, though, so that the reporter can condescendingly point out the downward mobility of the fellow Trump supporters surrounding them.



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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2018, 09:45:34 AM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

Really? NAFTA has been in force now for 25 years, but Canadian dairy tariffs are still in place.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-canada-dairy/562508/

Don't get me wrong: T.rump doesn't know s*** from shinola, but it doesn't mean he's wrong here.

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

Talk to the Manitoban's, they buy the stuff (velveeta) by the pallet.
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ChpBstrd

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2018, 10:01:23 AM »
Tariffs are a consumption tax.  The less you consume goods and services the lesser the impact of the tax on you personally.   I would much prefer higher consumption taxes rather than income taxes.

Tariffs are less like a sales tax or VAT and more like a subsidy paid by consumers to producers on one side of a line. Producers on the other side of the line are penalized, even if they are more efficient. So if it costs $500 to manufacture an item in the U.S. and $400 overseas, the price of the item goes up for consumers and the domestic producer (if they exist) pockets the money. The net result is consumers buying fewer items, as desired, but only because the price of everything has gone up and they now have less to spend. This is how the Great Depression occurred: rising tariffs plus rising interest rates equals a slowdown.

bwall

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2018, 10:59:12 AM »

I'm not entirely sure that the US would make much money selling dairy to Canada even without the tariffs to be honest.

It was mentioned earlier, but in Canada you're not allowed to sell dairy products pumped full of growth hormones as is typical of US dairy.  There are different standards in different provinces, but antibiotic usage in Canada is much more strictly measured and tested than in the US.  Because of this, most of the milk currently made in the US wouldn't be eligible for sale across the border anyway . . . so I don't believe that there would be significant benefit to Canadian consumers.

Which is all the more reason to remove the tariffs! Very few mass producers in the USA are interested in producing to those standards, but some do already. Why not let them in? The Canadian consumer would benefit through lower prices and greater selection.

The way that the tariffs on dairy in Canada is implemented, it is just a government enforced wealth transfer from the consumer to the producer.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2018, 11:32:42 AM »

I'm not entirely sure that the US would make much money selling dairy to Canada even without the tariffs to be honest.

It was mentioned earlier, but in Canada you're not allowed to sell dairy products pumped full of growth hormones as is typical of US dairy.  There are different standards in different provinces, but antibiotic usage in Canada is much more strictly measured and tested than in the US.  Because of this, most of the milk currently made in the US wouldn't be eligible for sale across the border anyway . . . so I don't believe that there would be significant benefit to Canadian consumers.

Which is all the more reason to remove the tariffs! Very few mass producers in the USA are interested in producing to those standards, but some do already. Why not let them in? The Canadian consumer would benefit through lower prices and greater selection.

The way that the tariffs on dairy in Canada is implemented, it is just a government enforced wealth transfer from the consumer to the producer.

My dad's a farmer, and I've had a long time to think about Canada's rather odd milk quota system.  It has quite a history, starting back in the 50s I believe as a supply management idea.  There are arguments for and against it, but generally the one given for it is thus:

If the US was given full, unfettered access to Canadian dairy markets, there would no longer be any Canadian dairy farmers.  I bet that within a year they would entirely be wiped out.  This becomes a pretty serious problem if several years down the road there's a shortage in milk products in the US.  You can't just create a new dairy farm in a couple months to meet that demand.  That's why we have supply management on several food items (dairy, eggs, chicken).

It's also important to note that the US has always had tariffs on dairy going into the country from Canada (in the range of 17 - 20% if I remember correctly).  It's weird that Trump is demanding an end to Canadian tariffs but staying quiet about the US ones.
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toganet

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2018, 12:20:03 PM »
Free trade is good. 
Trade should benefit all parties when conducted in an open and 'fair' manner.
Trade prevents wars.

That all being granted, there may come a point in a broken trading relationship where a 'do over' is required.  Have we reached that point with China?  I'm not educated or smart enough to know, but I grant that it is possible.

I don't think for a minute that Trump himself really has much of a coherent plan here, but I do recognize that China has abused the trading relationship by pervasive government sponsored theft of IP from companies that they force to 'partner' with domestic entities as the price for having any opportunity to market in China.  Once they have stolen the IP, they kick out the foreign company and just make the product themselves.     

Trade is such a complex welter of rules and interconnected relationships with manufacturing chains and raw materials vs manufactured products that I don't know who can really claim to understand how to fix big parts without disrupting the whole, at least for a time.  Perhaps a hard reset will help, I don't know.   But by playing bad cop, perhaps in a year or two, the next person can benefit by making deals that are better on the whole than the status quo. One step back for two steps forward and whatnot. 

It is very possible that China has more to fear from a disrupted trade relationship than do we.  For all of their vaunted economic might, they are facing some very serious issues with their economy, and that could lead to serious social upheaval. That may motivate them to move toward a more equitable trade relationship.

I don't buy this argument at all.

As an analogy, in software development there's a tendency for a software team to want to rewrite the product from scratch and 'do it right this time.'
But this approach is doomed.   The delivery is late, you have to go through the whole initial set of quality problems again, and then you have to try and convince your customers they should pay to upgrade to a product with less maturity, less features and more bugs.

Trade is even worse.   Destroying all the existing trade agreements and hoping to come up with something better is a colossal waste of time and effort that could be better spent on other things, like fixing health care, fixing the country's finances, improving competitiveness, ...

Excellent point.  This is another example of the Perfect being the enemy of the Good.  It's not really feasible to throw away everything and start with some "perfect" set of trade agreements.  For one thing, you'd never get everyone to agree on what's "perfect" so the deal would never happen.  Meanwhile, you'd be suffering along with the existing, now-outdated system.

Keep in mind, also, that we didn't start from a blank slate at some point in the past -- these deals have lineages going back hundreds of years.

So that's why we tend to see small, targeted changes over time vs. big deals.  Things like NAFTA and the TPP take a long time to negotiate, and are riddled with compromises and inefficiencies. 

Also, WRT China, think about where they were 30 years ago vs. where they are today.  Much of what the US (and the world) has tolerated from them is due to a desire to provide a safer path to modern economics and government than the scary visions that arose following Tiananmen Square.  That's not to say that was the right choice, or that everything has succeeded -- I don't think anyone is saying it's OK for China to steal IP or abuse its citizenry.  The question is what to do about it now.

BookLoverL

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2018, 12:51:49 PM »
YMMV, but I found this old article by John Michael Greer on the problems with free trade (written in 2016). I don't generally agree with him on everything, but I find his writing to be generally sound.

https://thearchdruidreport-archive.200605.xyz/2016/11/the-free-trade-fallacy.html

The link is to a mirror site because his original blog closed when he got fed up with the host site and he moved to a different blog with a new name.
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bwall

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2018, 01:25:03 PM »
My dad's a farmer, and I've had a long time to think about Canada's rather odd milk quota system.  It has quite a history, starting back in the 50s I believe as a supply management idea.  There are arguments for and against it, but generally the one given for it is thus:

If the US was given full, unfettered access to Canadian dairy markets, there would no longer be any Canadian dairy farmers.  I bet that within a year they would entirely be wiped out.  This becomes a pretty serious problem if several years down the road there's a shortage in milk products in the US.  You can't just create a new dairy farm in a couple months to meet that demand.  That's why we have supply management on several food items (dairy, eggs, chicken).

It's also important to note that the US has always had tariffs on dairy going into the country from Canada (in the range of 17 - 20% if I remember correctly).  It's weird that Trump is demanding an end to Canadian tariffs but staying quiet about the US ones.

I understand that a country wants to keep food production in-house, so to speak. Nothing wrong with that, unless you go overboard, which to me it sounds like is the case with Canada and dairy (and, the same for coddled US sugar producers). Most dairy does well in cool climates, like are found along the US-Canadian border, rather than in warm southern US climates. So, I believe that Canada can produce dairy efficiently when placed on equal footing. And, a 20% tariff is high, but nowhere near 200%.

But, vested interests want to protect themselves and are willing to use any means available to do this, the most common of which is peddling half-truths and fear to the masses. As long as the people accept the propaganda that they are fed, then there is not much that can be done about it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2018, 01:50:47 PM »
My dad's a farmer, and I've had a long time to think about Canada's rather odd milk quota system.  It has quite a history, starting back in the 50s I believe as a supply management idea.  There are arguments for and against it, but generally the one given for it is thus:

If the US was given full, unfettered access to Canadian dairy markets, there would no longer be any Canadian dairy farmers.  I bet that within a year they would entirely be wiped out.  This becomes a pretty serious problem if several years down the road there's a shortage in milk products in the US.  You can't just create a new dairy farm in a couple months to meet that demand.  That's why we have supply management on several food items (dairy, eggs, chicken).

It's also important to note that the US has always had tariffs on dairy going into the country from Canada (in the range of 17 - 20% if I remember correctly).  It's weird that Trump is demanding an end to Canadian tariffs but staying quiet about the US ones.

I understand that a country wants to keep food production in-house, so to speak. Nothing wrong with that, unless you go overboard, which to me it sounds like is the case with Canada and dairy (and, the same for coddled US sugar producers). Most dairy does well in cool climates, like are found along the US-Canadian border, rather than in warm southern US climates. So, I believe that Canada can produce dairy efficiently when placed on equal footing. And, a 20% tariff is high, but nowhere near 200%.

But, vested interests want to protect themselves and are willing to use any means available to do this, the most common of which is peddling half-truths and fear to the masses. As long as the people accept the propaganda that they are fed, then there is not much that can be done about it.

The 270% tariffs being bandied around are numbers charged on dairy over quota.  Below quota milk for example is tarriffed about 7%.  Remember when Trump quit the Transpacific Partnership?  The TPP give the US a chunk of dairy quota in that agreement.

Quote
Do U.S. dairy farmers sell to Canada?

Yes, bigly.

U.S. producers, who also benefit from subsidies and tariffs, exported about C$296 million ($227 million) in dairy goods to Canada last year, Statistics Canada data show. Canadian producers sold C$148.1 million in milk products in the opposite direction, a 2-to-1 U.S. trade surplus.

http://www.wisconsinagriculturist.com/dairy/does-canada-really-charge-270-tariff-milk



Does that still sound overboard . . . or is it beginning to sound more reasonable?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 01:53:00 PM by GuitarStv »
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bwall

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2018, 02:48:15 PM »

U.S. producers, who also benefit from subsidies and tariffs, exported about C$296 million ($227 million) in dairy goods to Canada last year, Statistics Canada data show. Canadian producers sold C$148.1 million in milk products in the opposite direction, a 2-to-1 U.S. trade surplus.

http://www.wisconsinagriculturist.com/dairy/does-canada-really-charge-270-tariff-milk

Does that still sound overboard . . . or is it beginning to sound more reasonable?

Still sounds unreasonable to me. Here's why, quoting the link above:

"Economists tend to loathe Canada’s system, saying that it means people pay more for staple foods. . . . . The existing dairy quota has become so valuable, worth billions of dollars, that killing it could ripple through the financial system and other sectors."

I find it unreasonable that a tax on the general population is worth billions of dollars to the recipients. Other people might find that acceptable and reasonable, though, for reasons of national pride or self interest. As Warren Buffett once said "It's difficult to convince a man of something if his salary depends on him not understanding it." YMMV. 

Kris

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2018, 05:07:52 PM »
Amusing and relevant:
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

gentmach

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2018, 03:17:26 PM »
My hours at work have been cut in half due to the Tariff business. I've been negatively affected but understand that things weren't so great for everyone.

If the big trade deals are 20 yaers old or so, we have something similar to what Thomas Jefferson called "The Tyranny of the Dead." Essentially we need to adapt to changing circumstances with new deals and discuss what was working and what wasn't working.

Yes, we have sacrificed the stable platform for choas for the time being. Stability can lead to stagnation though.

How many of us would even be discussing trade policies if Trump hadn't flipped the board over?

Gentmach-did you vote for Trump?  If so, I think you could at least make up some of your lost income in the form of paid meals with New York Times reporters.  They have an insatiable thirst for articles in the Trumpenfreude genre, or "Look At How Trump Has Screwed Over His Supporters But They Still Think He's Their Savior For Reasons That Are Definitely About Economic Anxiety."  I think those meals have to take place in diners in the heartland, though, so that the reporter can condescendingly point out the downward mobility of the fellow Trump supporters surrounding them.

Actually I voted Libertarian. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary but then realized my friends would hang me out to dry after they got universal health Care.
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RangerOne

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2018, 05:28:04 PM »
Tariffs are a consumption tax.  The less you consume goods and services the lesser the impact of the tax on you personally.   I would much prefer higher consumption taxes rather than income taxes.

The value of consumption taxes over income tax is a long debate. The problem with price hikes on goods due to a trade war is they are not design to avoid being regressive, like a well thought out consumption tax might be.

In fact the opposing country will likely target vulnerable industries and items that will directly impact impact middle class people in an effort to make the trade war unpopular.

RangerOne

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2018, 06:01:48 PM »
Free trade is good. 
Trade should benefit all parties when conducted in an open and 'fair' manner.
Trade prevents wars.

That all being granted, there may come a point in a broken trading relationship where a 'do over' is required.  Have we reached that point with China?  I'm not educated or smart enough to know, but I grant that it is possible.

I don't think for a minute that Trump himself really has much of a coherent plan here, but I do recognize that China has abused the trading relationship by pervasive government sponsored theft of IP from companies that they force to 'partner' with domestic entities as the price for having any opportunity to market in China.  Once they have stolen the IP, they kick out the foreign company and just make the product themselves.     

Trade is such a complex welter of rules and interconnected relationships with manufacturing chains and raw materials vs manufactured products that I don't know who can really claim to understand how to fix big parts without disrupting the whole, at least for a time.  Perhaps a hard reset will help, I don't know.   But by playing bad cop, perhaps in a year or two, the next person can benefit by making deals that are better on the whole than the status quo. One step back for two steps forward and whatnot. 

It is very possible that China has more to fear from a disrupted trade relationship than do we.  For all of their vaunted economic might, they are facing some very serious issues with their economy, and that could lead to serious social upheaval. That may motivate them to move toward a more equitable trade relationship.

I don't buy this argument at all.

As an analogy, in software development there's a tendency for a software team to want to rewrite the product from scratch and 'do it right this time.'
But this approach is doomed.   The delivery is late, you have to go through the whole initial set of quality problems again, and then you have to try and convince your customers they should pay to upgrade to a product with less maturity, less features and more bugs.

Trade is even worse.   Destroying all the existing trade agreements and hoping to come up with something better is a colossal waste of time and effort that could be better spent on other things, like fixing health care, fixing the country's finances, improving competitiveness, ...

I have to agree with scottish here. Its not even clear a hard reset is possible. And if it is it would require a very orderly and competent administration to renegotiated a better set of trade deals than we currently have in say the case of NAFTA, the one we bowed out of the TPP or an large trade relationship like we have with China. The Trump administration is a joke in this regard. Have they even made any progress on renegotiating NAFTA? Before they decided to start picking fights with other countries over trade?

There is a clear lack of focus with an emphasis on action for the sake of action. The reality is picking a fight with China on a few big trade issues, would be enough work for probably at least a full two term presidency. Yet this admin is trying to do everything and probably non of it very well.

High turn over and a lack of staffing are almost a guarantee that every effort made on this front will ultimately fail and be every bit as half ass as the initial North Korea "summit" where we gave up military demonstrations with an ally for a pinky swear that NK would denuclearize. A promise which is verifiably not had any effect on NK's nuclear program which continues to grow. He bowed out of an international agreement with Iran which was infinitely more complex simply because his base likes to shit on anything Obama did. No plan there.

Its pure hubris for any administration to come in and think they can fix a major problem, especially in the realm of international politics, even with 2 full terms.

What we are witnessing now is the easy part. Trump throwing shit into a fan. There is no way in hell he will give anyone in the administration enough time or tools to clean up the mess properly if it gets out of hand.

The best we can hope for is that at some point this all ratchets down and things go back to basically the way they were. Trump and China can both individually declare victory. And Trump and Xi will both remain rich and pompous.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2018, 06:03:45 AM »

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

I doubt they would send us their good stuff*.  Save it for the home market.  And just around here we have Oka, St. Albert, Balderson, and a new one near Lancaster . . .

* I was not surprised Target tanked here.  The quality was terrible.  They made Walmart look good.

Target is just Walmart painted red. 

Adam Zapple

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2018, 06:33:16 AM »
Dave Chappelle has the best argument against Trump's plan that I've seen.  Warning:  Foul language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inlDT62oGy8

MasterStache

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2018, 12:32:52 PM »

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

I doubt they would send us their good stuff*.  Save it for the home market.  And just around here we have Oka, St. Albert, Balderson, and a new one near Lancaster . . .

* I was not surprised Target tanked here.  The quality was terrible.  They made Walmart look good.

Target is just Walmart painted red.

In terms of prices and goods, eh I might agree. But in terms of service, our Target is light years ahead of Wal-Mart. But, Target also pays their employees more. Precisely why I thought it was funny when Trumpsters lauded the tax cuts while pointing to Wal-Mart employees seeing a slight bump in pay. They went from earning jack shit to just shit. 

Johnez

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2018, 04:16:28 PM »
As I recall, it was enough for a Costco membership. Egads! So much winning there lol.