Author Topic: Why do so few men "follow/fanboy/support" women, when the reverse is not true?  (Read 21433 times)

Telecaster

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Yes I do think that the vast majority of women and minorities get a fair go in society. It's not harder to make it as a woman or a minority than as a white male. I am married to an Asian woman and I work with women and minorities as a matter of course.

I don't see any discrimination at all in the work place.

I'm a white male who has spent his career in white male dominated industries.

I have seen one whole helluva lot of discrimination against women over the years. Most of it unintentional, it must be said but plenty of it definitely was.  Some of it shockingly so.  The situation has vastly, vastly improved over the last 20 years but gender discrimination is absolutely a thing.  Again, much of  it is unintentional.  Afterwork activities are likely to be male dominated where women are boxed out. That leaves women unable to make the personal connections needed to succeed in the workplace.  Most of that is not intentional, but it does leave women at a disadvantage.

I personally never saw racial discrimination.  But I totally get how it happens.  There is definitely good old boys network and if you are part of the club things definitely go easier.

steveo

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Yes I do think that the vast majority of women and minorities get a fair go in society. It's not harder to make it as a woman or a minority than as a white male. I am married to an Asian woman and I work with women and minorities as a matter of course.

I don't see any discrimination at all in the work place.

I'm a white male who has spent his career in white male dominated industries.

I have seen one whole helluva lot of discrimination against women over the years. Most of it unintentional, it must be said but plenty of it definitely was.  Some of it shockingly so.  The situation has vastly, vastly improved over the last 20 years but gender discrimination is absolutely a thing.  Again, much of  it is unintentional.  Afterwork activities are likely to be male dominated where women are boxed out. That leaves women unable to make the personal connections needed to succeed in the workplace.  Most of that is not intentional, but it does leave women at a disadvantage.

I personally never saw racial discrimination.  But I totally get how it happens.  There is definitely good old boys network and if you are part of the club things definitely go easier.

I've probably already posted this but my Auntie took over her husbands business when he died of cancer. She was discriminated against. She went to meetings and the men (probably they were only men) wouldn't talk to her. I get that there are times it has been rough in the pass. It's not now though.

I think some people need to get out a lot more. I work in a team of 5. 3 of our team are Indian and have emigrated to Australia. They are doing great. Imagine coming from another country and having to make it like that. It's really tough but they do it. One girl who is in our wider team went back to India and her dad died. She now has to support the whole family. I feel for her - that is a rough ask and women in India really aren't treated well.

Now these are real issues that people have to work hard to overcome but how great is it that they get a chance in this day and age. They can have great careers and earn good money. There is no discrimination stopping them advancing and I'd even argue that they are pushed ahead. You honestly can't ask for anything more.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 12:20:18 AM by steveo »

runbikerun

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Oh, this is too rich. An Australian is arguing that ethnic minorities get a fair shake? Your country has a fucking SORRY DAY to try to apologise to the Aborigine population for everything from their near-extermination to the Stolen Generation. It's been less than fifty years since mixed-race children were taken from their families and placed with white Australians to make them assimilate into white society. You really think Australia, the country of Pauline Hanson and paying other nations to hold asylum seekers in detention camps rather than let them in, is a model of post-racial equality?

use2betrix

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Yes I do think that the vast majority of women and minorities get a fair go in society. It's not harder to make it as a woman or a minority than as a white male. I am married to an Asian woman and I work with women and minorities as a matter of course.

I don't see any discrimination at all in the work place.

I'm a white male who has spent his career in white male dominated industries.

I have seen one whole helluva lot of discrimination against women over the years. Most of it unintentional, it must be said but plenty of it definitely was.  Some of it shockingly so.  The situation has vastly, vastly improved over the last 20 years but gender discrimination is absolutely a thing.  Again, much of  it is unintentional.  Afterwork activities are likely to be male dominated where women are boxed out. That leaves women unable to make the personal connections needed to succeed in the workplace.  Most of that is not intentional, but it does leave women at a disadvantage.

I personally never saw racial discrimination.  But I totally get how it happens.  There is definitely good old boys network and if you are part of the club things definitely go easier.

As discussed earlier in this thread, thinking that after work activities makes a difference in that regard, assumes that every one of those men would play ďfavoritesĒ and promote a male coworker over a possibly more qualified female. Does it happen? Sure, but I donít think that the afterworlds activities make that huge difference. I see women do the same thing.

In my field, I typically see women treated far better than men. Itís way male dominated because many women arenít interested in the type of work (construction). Men speak entirely more respectfully to women and in general when women are around. My last project a gentleman came up to me after a meeting just livid because of how another man talked in a meeting with a woman present (and the talk was in no way directed at her). In that same sense, when women make mistakes, they are treated much better. When it happens with another man, thereís often very little sugar coating and often some anger and cussing.

GuitarStv

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Totally off topic, but what the hell . . . What do you think the odds are of a guy getting a job as a daycare provider or early ECE?  I get that it's not a particularly glamorous job or anything, but that's one of the few jobs I can think of where odds are legitimately stacked against guys.  Our society looks uneasily at any man interested in spending time with young kids.

I've seen it happen, but you're right that it's rare.

Fortunately, it so happens that I have a great idea that will allow men to flock to early childhood education jobs: End gendered roles and expectations and stereotypes! There's no reason a man can't make a good daycare provider, other than the fact that he and everyone else has been told that taking care of children is women's work.

Oh, believe me, I get the nervousness. Men commit far more violent crime than women, and no one wants to subject their children to that risk. But the violence is learned; it's not inherent. Our culture socializes men to be aggressive,* a situation that is fair to absolutely no one. We can agree to stop this teaching at any time, and once we do, violence statistics will even out between the sexes.


*I'm not saying all men are aggressive; that's clearly false. I'm saying that's the expectation they're swimming against.

To be fair, men have testosterone cycles that happen every 15 - 20 minutes which have been shown to have an impact on mood/aggression.  How can we be expected to stay in control of our emotions???

:P

marble_faun

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Does it seem weird?  Is it due to bias?  Or is it because crab fishing is an EXTREMELY dangerous profession that, outside of the captain of the boat and maybe a few exceptions, tends to pay relatively poorly.  So really, women are wise to avoid it.  My point is that women tend to want gender equality when the jobs are perceived as desirable (IT, management, etc) but not when the jobs are perceived as undesirable (often because they are dangerous) (garbagemen, power line workers, crab fishermen).

Right now thereís around 4500 workplace fatalities a year, with about 93% of those being male (and that percentage has increased in the last 5ish years.

Like you mentioned above - you donít see women just diving into these dangerous, hard, physical labor jobs that they are so many other jobs that have typically been male dominated for the last 50 years. Are there more now than 50 years ago? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate as these dangerous, physical labor jobs. Of course, feminists will say that itís due to the culture and these being ďmenísĒ jobs, but thatís no different than other positions of the past like IT or doctors.


No, feminists would say that this is an example of how patriarchy hurts everyone.

steveo

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Oh, this is too rich. An Australian is arguing that ethnic minorities get a fair shake? Your country has a fucking SORRY DAY to try to apologise to the Aborigine population for everything from their near-extermination to the Stolen Generation. It's been less than fifty years since mixed-race children were taken from their families and placed with white Australians to make them assimilate into white society. You really think Australia, the country of Pauline Hanson and paying other nations to hold asylum seekers in detention camps rather than let them in, is a model of post-racial equality?

This is amazing. The world has gone mad. Yes we have Pauline Hanson and yes there are some ignorant people in Australia. I consider people like yourself ignorant as well.

The stolen generation is a product of the line of thinking that government intervention is required to fix discrimination. That is where you guys are heading.

EricL

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Does it seem weird?  Is it due to bias?  Or is it because crab fishing is an EXTREMELY dangerous profession that, outside of the captain of the boat and maybe a few exceptions, tends to pay relatively poorly.  So really, women are wise to avoid it.  My point is that women tend to want gender equality when the jobs are perceived as desirable (IT, management, etc) but not when the jobs are perceived as undesirable (often because they are dangerous) (garbagemen, power line workers, crab fishermen).

Right now thereís around 4500 workplace fatalities a year, with about 93% of those being male (and that percentage has increased in the last 5ish years.

Like you mentioned above - you donít see women just diving into these dangerous, hard, physical labor jobs that they are so many other jobs that have typically been male dominated for the last 50 years. Are there more now than 50 years ago? Sure, but nowhere near the same rate as these dangerous, physical labor jobs. Of course, feminists will say that itís due to the culture and these being ďmenísĒ jobs, but thatís no different than other positions of the past like IT or doctors.


No, feminists would say that this is an example of how patriarchy hurts everyone.

To be fair, Iím sure any prospective female job seekers calculate the amount of chauvinistic shit theyíd have to put up from male co-workers in those fields along with the shit pay. 

runbikerun

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Oh, this is too rich. An Australian is arguing that ethnic minorities get a fair shake? Your country has a fucking SORRY DAY to try to apologise to the Aborigine population for everything from their near-extermination to the Stolen Generation. It's been less than fifty years since mixed-race children were taken from their families and placed with white Australians to make them assimilate into white society. You really think Australia, the country of Pauline Hanson and paying other nations to hold asylum seekers in detention camps rather than let them in, is a model of post-racial equality?

This is amazing. The world has gone mad. Yes we have Pauline Hanson and yes there are some ignorant people in Australia. I consider people like yourself ignorant as well.

The stolen generation is a product of the line of thinking that government intervention is required to fix discrimination. That is where you guys are heading.

The stolen generation is a product of the line of thinking that Aborigines were inferior and condemned to extinction. It's utter and total horseshit to paint it as an excess of zeal in preventing discrimination. It was racist as fuck right to the core.

EricL

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Oh, this is too rich. An Australian is arguing that ethnic minorities get a fair shake? Your country has a fucking SORRY DAY to try to apologise to the Aborigine population for everything from their near-extermination to the Stolen Generation. It's been less than fifty years since mixed-race children were taken from their families and placed with white Australians to make them assimilate into white society. You really think Australia, the country of Pauline Hanson and paying other nations to hold asylum seekers in detention camps rather than let them in, is a model of post-racial equality?

This is amazing. The world has gone mad. Yes we have Pauline Hanson and yes there are some ignorant people in Australia. I consider people like yourself ignorant as well.

The stolen generation is a product of the line of thinking that government intervention is required to fix discrimination. That is where you guys are heading.

The stolen generation is a product of the line of thinking that Aborigines were inferior and condemned to extinction. It's utter and total horseshit to paint it as an excess of zeal in preventing discrimination. It was racist as fuck right to the core.

Um.  How did this debate about women become a pissing contest about Australian racism?

Edit: Especially with a tone that one or the other side is in some way personally responsible for it? 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 11:59:35 AM by EricL »

runbikerun

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My bad - shouldn't have taken the bait.

mm1970

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I really don't understand people like steveo and use2betrix.  Do they really think that women get a fair shake in our society?  I mean, that's the main issue, isn't it?  Is it harder to make it as a woman than it is as a man. 

Who knows, maybe for their next argument they can explain to us all how minorities don't have any social barriers either, and just can't succeed because they are lazy. 

That was sarcasm in case it wasn't clear.
I think some of it might be age and level of experience in the world.  I think one of them is 30.  Not sure about the other one.

Many many studies of shown, particularly in engineering (my field), that the discrimination/ sexism/ pay gap kinds of things start pretty early.  But they REALLY start ramping up mid-career, after about the age of 30.  I've certainly seen it happen.  It my experience, it really ramps up after the age of about 35...you just see fewer and fewer women at the higher ranks.  (For many reasons, easy to google.)

A lot of people simply cannot LEARN through reading.  They have no empathy.  They quite literally have to experience it themselves to understand it.  And EVEN IF they see it themselves - if it doesn't fit their narrative, they don't believe it.

I have a large family FULL of middle class, lower middle class, and upper middle class white folk who REALLY don't understand racism or sexism.  They are of the "bootstraps" crew.  "I worked hard for all that I have."  Many many of them live in areas with few to zero minorities (not sure the school I attended from kindergarten through 10th has ever had a black student.)  A couple of my BILs are outright racist (they are 20 years older than I am, so I didn't quite discover that until I attended a family function in my 30s.  Whee!)

Not sure what to do, but if it makes you feel any better, I do know some who have learned as they've gotten older.  Maybe their daughter or wife is treated badly or passed over for a promotion.  Maybe they are out with a minority friend and get harassed or profiled.  Or maybe they are always oblivious.

Nick_Miller

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This may have run its course.

I'd rather people not "keep the thread going" with off-topic stuff.

I am trying to be intentional about finding women to "fan" over. And before anyone takes this the wrong way, or views it as "pity fandom," I think it's true that we all have our own filters and that it's healthy once in a while (such as after reading this thread) to intentionally challenge your own status quo.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 01:36:10 PM by Nick_Miller »

PoutineLover

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Nick, I'd suggest a challenge such as reading only female authors, listening to only female singers or bands, watching movies or shows with a female lead, for a whole year. Throw in a women's game for every men's sport game you watch. You'll probably find a lot of new artists that you like, and you may also realize that it's a lot harder to consume media without thinking about representation after doing it. Actually, all the guys here who don't fanboy over women should try this. Ask women you know for recommendations. I'd be curious to see the result.

EricL

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Nick, I'd suggest a challenge such as reading only female authors, listening to only female singers or bands, watching movies or shows with a female lead, for a whole year. Throw in a women's game for every men's sport game you watch. You'll probably find a lot of new artists that you like, and you may also realize that it's a lot harder to consume media without thinking about representation after doing it. Actually, all the guys here who don't fanboy over women should try this. Ask women you know for recommendations. I'd be curious to see the result.

One bit of sexism I noticed in the Army were senior male officers and NCOs who, while they avoided treating young female subordinates as sex objects, often fell into a nearly as bad sexist insidious error of treating them like daughters.  These subordinates unconsciously or consciously played to that, getting preferential treatment or giving a perception of preferential treatment which effected unit morale. 

marble_faun

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This may have run its course.

I'd rather people not "keep the thread going" with off-topic stuff.

I am trying to be intentional about finding women to "fan" over. And before anyone takes this the wrong way, or views it as "pity fandom," I think it's true that we all have our own filters and that it's healthy once in a while (such as after reading this thread) to intentionally challenge your own status quo.

I appreciate your trying to learn and stretch yourself, as we all need to do sometimes. 

It's strange how defensive and hostile this thread got, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised.  Not everyone wants to critically reflect on their own worldview.

Nick_Miller

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Nick, I'd suggest a challenge such as reading only female authors, listening to only female singers or bands, watching movies or shows with a female lead, for a whole year. Throw in a women's game for every men's sport game you watch. You'll probably find a lot of new artists that you like, and you may also realize that it's a lot harder to consume media without thinking about representation after doing it. Actually, all the guys here who don't fanboy over women should try this. Ask women you know for recommendations. I'd be curious to see the result.

Challenge accepted! (yes I know it's a Barney Stinson line, not a Nick Miller line) You added specificity, enhancing my 'goal' to more of a 'plan.' I know this thread will totally die soon, but I'll try to remember this time next year to post an update.

Oh and by the way, I met a very cool (female) author at a convention this year, and I've since read one of her novels, as well as a novel she co-wrote. I dug both, and anticipate getting more of her stuff after the holidays die down. I thought her (male) protagonist was awesome; it makes me more confident about writing female leads.

And one of my best friends is a female writer. We definitely click, with mutual respect for each other's projects. I am already a 'fan' of hers and will definitely cross promote and support as much as possible (even though we are in different genres).

Nick_Miller

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This may have run its course.

I'd rather people not "keep the thread going" with off-topic stuff.

I am trying to be intentional about finding women to "fan" over. And before anyone takes this the wrong way, or views it as "pity fandom," I think it's true that we all have our own filters and that it's healthy once in a while (such as after reading this thread) to intentionally challenge your own status quo.

I appreciate your trying to learn and stretch yourself, as we all need to do sometimes. 

It's strange how defensive and hostile this thread got, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised.  Not everyone wants to critically reflect on their own worldview.

Most of us don't. And when confronted with a worldview that conflicts with our own, we double down on our own status quo. I would like to be better than this, especially as I get older. Hopefully many of us took something positive out of this discussion and can apply it to our own situations.

FrugalToque

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"It's not harder to make it as a woman or a minority than as a white male."

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, wrong.

Agreed.

Also, I'm getting a lot of moderation requests for this thread, which is way "Off Topic" often goes.

Speaking for myself, I find it ridiculous to pretend that women and minorities have it as well as white, heterosexual men.  Only a white, heterosexual male, or possibly a woman or minority who has led an incredibly privileged existence, could believe such a thing.

Toque.

EricL

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Nick, I'd suggest a challenge such as reading only female authors, listening to only female singers or bands, watching movies or shows with a female lead, for a whole year. Throw in a women's game for every men's sport game you watch. You'll probably find a lot of new artists that you like, and you may also realize that it's a lot harder to consume media without thinking about representation after doing it. Actually, all the guys here who don't fanboy over women should try this. Ask women you know for recommendations. I'd be curious to see the result.

One bit of sexism I noticed in the Army were senior male officers and NCOs who, while they avoided treating young female subordinates as sex objects, often fell into a nearly as bad sexist insidious error of treating them like daughters.  These subordinates unconsciously or consciously played to that, getting preferential treatment or giving a perception of preferential treatment which effected unit morale.
UGH! This kind of behavior from guys was even worse than plain faced sexism. The coddling, mewing, condensating, patronizing "don't worry your pretty little head Dear" tone was massively insulting as a woman fully capable of doing my job. Fortunately I really never worked with officers - and very few did that - but crusty old Senior Chiefs who don't generally act like that would would just as soon kick your ass if you couldn't do your job.
.

Well, at least they weren't super patronizing.  But they did coddle and occasionally fawned a bit in less obvious ways.  Our senior NCOs sometimes did too.  Fortunately there are more female senior NCOs out there that either told them to cut it out and/or demonstrated young female Soldiers could endure harsher treatment when merited just fine.

use2betrix

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Nick, I'd suggest a challenge such as reading only female authors, listening to only female singers or bands, watching movies or shows with a female lead, for a whole year. Throw in a women's game for every men's sport game you watch. You'll probably find a lot of new artists that you like, and you may also realize that it's a lot harder to consume media without thinking about representation after doing it. Actually, all the guys here who don't fanboy over women should try this. Ask women you know for recommendations. I'd be curious to see the result.

One bit of sexism I noticed in the Army were senior male officers and NCOs who, while they avoided treating young female subordinates as sex objects, often fell into a nearly as bad sexist insidious error of treating them like daughters.  These subordinates unconsciously or consciously played to that, getting preferential treatment or giving a perception of preferential treatment which effected unit morale.
UGH! This kind of behavior from guys was even worse than plain faced sexism. The coddling, mewing, condensating, patronizing "don't worry your pretty little head Dear" tone was massively insulting as a woman fully capable of doing my job. Fortunately I really never worked with officers - and very few did that - but crusty old Senior Chiefs who don't generally act like that would would just as soon kick your ass if you couldn't do your job.
.

Women do this outside of the service all the time. Iíve been patronized by so many women calling me ďsweetieĒ or ďdearĒ when they want to get their way itís pathetic. Just like all the women that will also try and use sex appeal to get their way, be it in sales, the work force, etc.

use2betrix

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On another note - whatís the typical view on transgendered athletes? Thereís currently a former man who now identifies as a woman just dominating womenís handball in Australia named Hannah Mouncey. Sheís like 6í2 and 220.

Iím a bit torn. Ever since this thread Iíve learned that aside from reproductive organs thereís no physical difference from men and women at all. Iíve also learned here than on average, many women are even stronger than men.

Maybe to level our culture all genders should be removed from sports and purely the best athletes compete? That way we would no longer having to deal with one gender getting less publicity than the other, and since thereís no physical differences, Iím sure the sports would be pretty even.

Cressida

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Ever since this thread Iíve learned that aside from reproductive organs thereís no physical difference from men and women at all. Iíve also learned here than on average, many women are even stronger than men.

The record shows that I never said either of those things.

Nick_Miller

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UPDATE:

Well she isn't an entertainer...but she does have some sick dance moves...

https://mashable.com/article/alexandria-ocasion-cortez-dancing-video-new-office/#BYfdkz6s4Oqn

I am fanboying over AOC about as hard as I can fanboy over anyone. Platform. Intelligence. Authenticity. Courage. And yes those dance moves. It is like someone is filming a movie about a regular person going to Washington and how the establishment is all "No no no" but the protagonist, through honesty and pure grit, takes their best shots and even wins over the crustiest opponent at the end of the movie (admittedly unlikely to occur here).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 11:26:41 AM by Nick_Miller »

SunnyDays

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

EricL

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

I guess I'm fucked up.  I used to read Nancy Drew as a child.  I read the Hardy Boys too but didn't like them quite as much.

steveo

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

Why is this sexism ?

My opinion is that world has become so weird now that you can't be who you are because you get judged on the basis of your racial background or gender. I think bizarrely the people doing the judging are the ones calling other people of being sexist or racist.

Cressida

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

Why is this sexism ?

My opinion is that world has become so weird now that you can't be who you are because you get judged on the basis of your racial background or gender. I think bizarrely the people doing the judging are the ones calling other people of being sexist or racist.

Sexism = evaluating people differently based on their sex.

Making a choice to read books based on the sex of the protagonist, by this definition, is sexist.

I hope this answers your question.

Nick_Miller

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

Why is this sexism ?

My opinion is that world has become so weird now that you can't be who you are because you get judged on the basis of your racial background or gender. I think bizarrely the people doing the judging are the ones calling other people of being sexist or racist.

Sexism = evaluating people differently based on their sex.

Making a choice to read books based on the sex of the protagonist, by this definition, is sexist.

I hope this answers your question.

I think there are some fine lines here. Authors, perhaps more than any other creators of media (games, movies, tv) DO have targeted audiences. Genres are HUGE in publishing. Heck, to get published traditionally you need to be able to fully describe your targeted audience to agents, editors, publishers, etc. and explain why your book will appeal to them.

Many books are specifically targeted to middle-aged women, or middle-aged men, or young women 12-16, etc. So the author is generally writing "to" someone, and if you're not in that "to" group, it might not be a natural fit for you to appreciate and enjoy the book, although it's certainly possible.

Twlight was clearly targeted to young women. That doesn't mean that young men, or older men, etc., can't enjoy it, but they certainly are not the audience being addressed.

I think we can all be more mindful of stretching our interests and reading books in genres we haven't read before, but I don't see my wife reading 'pages of descriptions of military weapons" Tom Clancy books anytime soon, and it doesn't necessarily make her "sexist" to not enjoy extremely masculine-themed books like his.

That being said, I do think books like Harry Potter have broad appeal to folks in lots of different demographics. Some books just have wider appeal than do others. Most romance/erotica books are geared to women. It's just the way it is. It doesn't mean a guy can't pick one up and enjoy it, but again the author is not writing for him. The author is writing to a specific audience and including the tropes and expectations that women expect to find in the story. It's more financially effective than trying to write a romance book that would equally appeal to men and women.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:14:13 AM by Nick_Miller »

MonkeyJenga

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Nick, I don't think SunnyDays' example about middle schoolers was referring to the girls reading romance and erotica. It's more that all else being equal, in the same genre, the gender of the lead character affects reading habits in this way.

Harry Potter: male lead, written by a woman who chose to mask her gender with initials.

v8rx7guy

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Women do get a heck of a lot more fans & fanboys on Instagram from my observations....

Nick_Miller

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Nick, I don't think SunnyDays' example about middle schoolers was referring to the girls reading romance and erotica. It's more that all else being equal, in the same genre, the gender of the lead character affects reading habits in this way.

Harry Potter: male lead, written by a woman who chose to mask her gender with initials.

I do agree to a large extent. I was just pointing out the specific issues in the publishing industry. You can't tell a publisher "this book is for everyone!"  It will not get published. You have to target an audience, and gender is a huge part of that.

Back to Harry Potter, yes I agree that the gender of protagonist affects readership demographics, at least to my knowledge. But of course, some genres already have expectations as to who the protagonist will be in the first place. Military fiction is usually going to have a male protagonist. It's the readers' expectation. Romance stories generally have a female protagonist for the same reasons. Now some genres like thrillers, mysteries, fantasy and even sci-fi now are more egalitarian (although fantasy and sci-fi were dominated by men for a LONG time).

I whole heartedly agree that we should all be more open-minded about reading stories with protags and authors of a different gender (I've been striving to do this personally), but some genres are just always going to be less targeted to one gender or the other (and hell, women make up like 75% of the fiction-reading market these days).


Nick_Miller

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Women do get a heck of a lot more fans & fanboys on Instagram from my observations....

It's a tough question to answer, but do you have a thought as to how many of the fanboys primarily appreciate and respect the woman's work versus the number who primarily "just think she is hot" and follow purely for the pics?

I mean, Paige Spiranac (golf) and Allison Stokke (pole vaulting) have huge male followings...but is it primarily because the guys respect these ladies' skills or because these women are insanely attractive?

I would argue that it's not really "fan-boying" if you are primarily just interested in a person's appearance as opposed to their skill sets. Others might disagree.

EDITED TO ADD:

I love Bruce Springsteen because of his music. He is old af and that doesn't matter. His appearance doesn't make any difference. Some for dudes like Phil Collins and Bob Dylan. I just like their music; I fanboy for them because of their talent. I dig authors like Neil Gaiman and Dean Koontz and it has NOTHING to do with looks, it has to do with talent. Is there a difference between these examples and men who follow Allison Stokke on IG because of her looks? Is that really "fanboying" or more like "drooling?"
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:45:14 AM by Nick_Miller »

MonkeyJenga

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Sure, there's sexism in the publishing industry and the marketing industry. I'm not sure we're talking about the same issue. Are you arguing that middle school boys tend to only read books with male protagonists because that's the only thing marketed to boys, while books with both male and female characters are marketed to girls?

I would be interested in seeing a controlled experiment. I'm sure it's been done, I just don't know where it is.

v8rx7guy

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Women do get a heck of a lot more fans & fanboys on Instagram from my observations....

It's a tough question to answer, but do you have a thought as to how many of the fanboys primarily appreciate and respect the woman's work versus the number who primarily "just think she is hot" and follow purely for the pics?

I mean, Paige Spiranac (golf) and Allison Stokke (pole vaulting) have huge male followings...but is it primarily because the guys respect these ladies' skills or because these women are insanely attractive?

I would argue that it's not really "fan-boying" if you are primarily just interested in a person's appearance as opposed to their skill sets. Others might disagree.

EDITED TO ADD:

I love Bruce Springsteen because of his music. He is old af and that doesn't matter. His appearance doesn't make any difference. Some for dudes like Phil Collins and Bob Dylan. I just like their music; I fanboy for them because of their talent. I dig authors like Neil Gaiman and Dean Koontz and it has NOTHING to do with looks, it has to do with talent. Is there a difference between these examples and men who follow Allison Stokke on IG because of her looks? Is that really "fanboying" or more like "drooling?"

Oh, its absolutely because of that.  I don't like your distinction, however, saying this is not the same fanyboy-ing because its appearance related.  My point is that you don't have to look far to find and industry (porn also, sadly) that is ruled by women and fueled by Male fanboys.

Nick_Miller

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Sure, there's sexism in the publishing industry and the marketing industry. I'm not sure we're talking about the same issue. Are you arguing that middle school boys tend to only read books with male protagonists because that's the only thing marketed to boys, while books with both male and female characters are marketed to girls?

I would be interested in seeing a controlled experiment. I'm sure it's been done, I just don't know where it is.

@MonkeyJenga ,

I would like to better understand the reasons as well. I was in education when I was younger, and girls just read more, period. It was clear as day. It was really a struggle to get boys to read novels, regardless of the protag or themes.

Nick_Miller

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Women do get a heck of a lot more fans & fanboys on Instagram from my observations....

It's a tough question to answer, but do you have a thought as to how many of the fanboys primarily appreciate and respect the woman's work versus the number who primarily "just think she is hot" and follow purely for the pics?

I mean, Paige Spiranac (golf) and Allison Stokke (pole vaulting) have huge male followings...but is it primarily because the guys respect these ladies' skills or because these women are insanely attractive?

I would argue that it's not really "fan-boying" if you are primarily just interested in a person's appearance as opposed to their skill sets. Others might disagree.

EDITED TO ADD:

I love Bruce Springsteen because of his music. He is old af and that doesn't matter. His appearance doesn't make any difference. Some for dudes like Phil Collins and Bob Dylan. I just like their music; I fanboy for them because of their talent. I dig authors like Neil Gaiman and Dean Koontz and it has NOTHING to do with looks, it has to do with talent. Is there a difference between these examples and men who follow Allison Stokke on IG because of her looks? Is that really "fanboying" or more like "drooling?"

Oh, its absolutely because of that.  I don't like your distinction, however, saying this is not the same fanyboy-ing because its appearance related.  My point is that you don't have to look far to find and industry (porn also, sadly) that is ruled by women and fueled by Male fanboys.

I think there is room for disagreement here. I guess my point is that a man following Allison Stokke probably has a very "shallow" attachment to her. He thinks she's hot. End of story. Maybe he gets off to pics of her. Again, it's very shallow. Does he follow her pole vaulting meets and such? Does he listen to her interviews? Does he care about her talent at all? And when the next hot girl comes along, will he lose all interest in her? Is he really a "fan" of her in any meaningful way? Is he going to "fanboy" for her when she's 35?

That seems very different than respecting a person's talents, supporting them economically with going to their concerts or sporting events, buying their books or merch, seeing their movies, i.e. respecting their creative talents, recommending that others follow their careers, etc. Again, plenty of room to disagree.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:00:22 PM by Nick_Miller »

v8rx7guy

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Women do get a heck of a lot more fans & fanboys on Instagram from my observations....

It's a tough question to answer, but do you have a thought as to how many of the fanboys primarily appreciate and respect the woman's work versus the number who primarily "just think she is hot" and follow purely for the pics?

I mean, Paige Spiranac (golf) and Allison Stokke (pole vaulting) have huge male followings...but is it primarily because the guys respect these ladies' skills or because these women are insanely attractive?

I would argue that it's not really "fan-boying" if you are primarily just interested in a person's appearance as opposed to their skill sets. Others might disagree.

EDITED TO ADD:

I love Bruce Springsteen because of his music. He is old af and that doesn't matter. His appearance doesn't make any difference. Some for dudes like Phil Collins and Bob Dylan. I just like their music; I fanboy for them because of their talent. I dig authors like Neil Gaiman and Dean Koontz and it has NOTHING to do with looks, it has to do with talent. Is there a difference between these examples and men who follow Allison Stokke on IG because of her looks? Is that really "fanboying" or more like "drooling?"

Oh, its absolutely because of that.  I don't like your distinction, however, saying this is not the same fanyboy-ing because its appearance related.  My point is that you don't have to look far to find and industry (porn also, sadly) that is ruled by women and fueled by Male fanboys.

I think there is room for disagreement here. I guess my point is that a man following Allison Stokke probably has a very "shallow" attachment to her. He thinks she's hot. End of story. Maybe he gets off to pics of her. Again, it's very shallow. Does he follow her pole vaulting meets and such? Does he listen to her interviews? Does he care about her talent at all? And when the next hot girl comes along, will he lose all interest in her? Is he really a "fan" of her in any meaningful way? Is he going to "fanboy" for her when she's 35?

That seems very different than respecting a person's talents, supporting them economically with going to their concerts or sporting events, buying their books or merch, seeing their movies, i.e. respecting their creative talents, recommending that others follow their careers, etc. Again, plenty of room to disagree.

Yeah, I think we will have to disagree.  When I see your title, I think that these are perfect examples as to where the reverse is true. 

Cressida

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I think we can all be more mindful of stretching our interests and reading books in genres we haven't read before, but I don't see my wife reading 'pages of descriptions of military weapons" Tom Clancy books anytime soon, and it doesn't necessarily make her "sexist" to not enjoy extremely masculine-themed books like his.

There's a big jump from what I said to what you're saying. The pattern of school-age girls to read books with any protagonist while school-age boys refuse to read books with a female protagonist is a sexist pattern and is reinforced by social conditioning. Your wife not reading Tom Clancy has a much more attenuated relationship to sexism. It's because she finds descriptions of weapons boring, not because the protagonist is a man. Sure, part of the reason she finds descriptions of weapons boring probably has to do with the fact that she was socialized female and weapons are coded masculine, but that's a lot different from flatly rejecting a book because girls are lame.

tyort1

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I think we can all be more mindful of stretching our interests and reading books in genres we haven't read before, but I don't see my wife reading 'pages of descriptions of military weapons" Tom Clancy books anytime soon, and it doesn't necessarily make her "sexist" to not enjoy extremely masculine-themed books like his.

There's a big jump from what I said to what you're saying. The pattern of school-age girls to read books with any protagonist while school-age boys refuse to read books with a female protagonist is a sexist pattern and is reinforced by social conditioning. Your wife not reading Tom Clancy has a much more attenuated relationship to sexism. It's because she finds descriptions of weapons boring, not because the protagonist is a man. Sure, part of the reason she finds descriptions of weapons boring probably has to do with the fact that she was socialized female and weapons are coded masculine, but that's a lot different from flatly rejecting a book because girls are lame.

You are right, it's a good observation re: boys and girls reading habits.  Some of it is social conditioning no doubt.  I also think that girls reach emotional maturity before boys, so books that appeal to the more nuanced world view of the girls comes off as "boring" to boys of the same age.  And that early judgement by boys tends to stick with them in later years. 

use2betrix

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I have been watching YouTube documentaries on ultramarathon runners during my treadmill sessions recently.

I have no issue watching male or females train, run, etc. I do find it interesting that the women are far more emotional. During a documentary that was focused on women, the women cried, a lot. I donít recall any of the men crying in the documentaries Iíve watched.

Is this more nature or nurture? Is it because women are raised more to believe that crying is ok? Or - is it due to the hormonal difference between genders?

Of course, this is just a general observation and not a scientific study, and Iím sure there will be members here that state that men cry more than women.

steveo

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I didn't read all this thread, but just want to comment that it has been noted by educators that middle school-age girls will read books with both boys and girls as lead characters, while boys will generally only read books about boys.  So, the "sexism" starts early.  For what it's worth.

Why is this sexism ?

My opinion is that world has become so weird now that you can't be who you are because you get judged on the basis of your racial background or gender. I think bizarrely the people doing the judging are the ones calling other people of being sexist or racist.

Sexism = evaluating people differently based on their sex.

Making a choice to read books based on the sex of the protagonist, by this definition, is sexist.

I hope this answers your question.

It definitely doesn't answer my question but it does show the flaws in your line of reasoning. Sexism is not anything at all like what you state. If boys like reading books about boys or men that doesn't make them sexist or the world sexist or anything at all like that. It just means they prefer stories about boys/men which is fine.

The point that you have made shows exactly why modern day feminism is warped. Modern day feminists don't want equal rights for people and people have the right to choose what they do with their lives. Modern day feminism is all about trying to engineer the world to make it so that people don't have individual choices in how they act and what they do.

Sexism is not allowing women to vote and not allowing women into positions of power and not allowing women to read books by women. Sexism is about restricting females opportunities based on their sex. It isn't about restricting peoples desires or forcing men to read books with a female protagonist.

steveo

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I have been watching YouTube documentaries on ultramarathon runners during my treadmill sessions recently.

I have no issue watching male or females train, run, etc. I do find it interesting that the women are far more emotional. During a documentary that was focused on women, the women cried, a lot. I donít recall any of the men crying in the documentaries Iíve watched.

Is this more nature or nurture? Is it because women are raised more to believe that crying is ok? Or - is it due to the hormonal difference between genders?

Of course, this is just a general observation and not a scientific study, and Iím sure there will be members here that state that men cry more than women.

I like watching Amanda Nunes fight even though the level is miles below the men who fight. I really like her. I like the way she gets a little emotional. I like the way she is the underdog but wins.

When it comes to men or women being less or more emotional I think it's a really tough question. I've noticed that in my family the women tend to be the harder ones and the men much more likely to be the ones who bend and are understanding. It's interesting. I suppose women are more likely to cry or get upset but they are also the ones who are tougher. My feeling is that this is probably more individual characteristics rather than gender based issues. I also think focusing on gender issues shows a lack of maturity. Feminists are just one side of this gender based focus. Men actually do this as well. Men focus on pick-up techniques and how to manage women. I view the men that do this as having problems being mature and emotionally balanced just like modern day feminists who complain about the books that people like to read.

A friend who I trained jiu-jitsu with recently took his own life. I looked up the stats. Suicide is the no 1 cause of death in Australia for people between the ages of 15-44. Men are 3 times more likely to commit suicide. Are men really less emotional ? Are women really discriminated against more than men in modern day society ?

RetiredAt63

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The point that you have made shows exactly why modern day feminism is warped. Modern day feminists don't want equal rights for people and people have the right to choose what they do with their lives. Modern day feminism is all about trying to engineer the world to make it so that people don't have individual choices in how they act and what they do.

Sexism is not allowing women to vote and not allowing women into positions of power and not allowing women to read books by women. Sexism is about restricting females opportunities based on their sex. It isn't about restricting peoples desires or forcing men to read books with a female protagonist.

You are describing the blatant sexism.  There is lots more subtle sexism, but if it isn't aimed at you it is likely not visible to you.  Of course feminists look at the effects of our present social system on men as well. I am sure there are lots of men who avoid reading certain genres or doing certain activities because they are not manly.  For example - There are very few men in my weaving guild, even though at one point the weaving guilds of Europe and England were all men.  As machinery took over industrial weaving, weaving in the home became women's work (except for the traveling weaver, a man, who had the loom for really big projects).  So gradually weaving changed from being a respected manly occupation to being a womanly activity and most men are not interested, because it is not seen as an acceptable hobby.

When I was a girl (times have changed) reading SF was not terribly well thought of, but it was OK for boys.  It was all aimed at boys, because no one ever thought a girl would read SF, we wouldn't be interested and it was not girly.  I did, and I know I am not the only one, but we were an invisible audience to publishers.  And we hid our interest, because it was not girly and we were girls.  And authors hid too, Andre Norton (Alice Mary, also pen names Andrew North and Allen Weston) was a woman.  C. J. Cherryh (Carolyn Janice) was a woman.

So I can't help but wonder, who are the invisible audiences for various genres now?  I read all of Clancy's books about Jack Ryan, I may have had my eyes glaze over slightly when the weapons stuff got too boring, but otherwise, I enjoyed them.  But I would imagine I am again an invisible audience based on your comments, if publishers are thinking the same way.  And if the Jack Ryan novels are not an accepted series for women, then what are men going to think of a woman who is enjoying them?  That she is odd?  That she is not womanly?  Even if a man doesn't say anything to her, in the back of her mind a woman reading them is going to be wondering if this should be at home reading instead of on the bus reading - or on the bus reading instead of at home reading if her husband is likely to comment.  And that is part of the quiet sexism, a woman may always have the little niggling voice that those around her won't approve of her reading/hobby because it is not appropriate for women.  Because things get categorized.  And men may get that too, because things get categorized.

Anyway, I am a new fan of your new Arizona Senator - good for her, swearing on the constitution.

steveo

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You are describing the blatant sexism.

My take is that post this point you are talking about nature vs nurture and women are tough and smart enough to not have anything else impact them especially as a gender as a whole. I think modern day feminists are in some ways the opposite of feminists in that they think that women need special treatment to get ahead. I don't believe that for an instant. I think women are just as capable as men in most activities. Sure men are physically stronger and men will win most sporting competitions and maybe men are better at certain activities like chess but women on the whole are extremely capable.

So gradually weaving changed from being a respected manly occupation to being a womanly activity and most men are not interested, because it is not seen as an acceptable hobby.

This might change again as well. Here is the point - there is no need to make weaving 50% men and 50% women. This is where modern day feminists fail. They want to engineer the world in the image they state is correct rather than let people live their lives without discrimination and the result is the result.

When I was a girl (times have changed) reading SF was not terribly well thought of, but it was OK for boys.  It was all aimed at boys, because no one ever thought a girl would read SF, we wouldn't be interested and it was not girly.  I did, and I know I am not the only one, but we were an invisible audience to publishers.  And we hid our interest, because it was not girly and we were girls.  And authors hid too, Andre Norton (Alice Mary, also pen names Andrew North and Allen Weston) was a woman.  C. J. Cherryh (Carolyn Janice) was a woman.

I think you are proving my point. Now women are all over science fiction. I read the latest Brandon Sanderson book and I thought it was great. The protagonist was female.

But I would imagine I am again an invisible audience based on your comments, if publishers are thinking the same way.  And if the Jack Ryan novels are not an accepted series for women, then what are men going to think of a woman who is enjoying them?  That she is odd?  That she is not womanly?  Even if a man doesn't say anything to her, in the back of her mind a woman reading them is going to be wondering if this should be at home reading instead of on the bus reading - or on the bus reading instead of at home reading if her husband is likely to comment.  And that is part of the quiet sexism, a woman may always have the little niggling voice that those around her won't approve of her reading/hobby because it is not appropriate for women.  Because things get categorized.  And men may get that too, because things get categorized.

A couple of points here:-

1. Personally I think you can read whatever you want. I'll judge you poorly if you read something that I find offensive such as Hitler's Mein Kampf for instance but that is about it. I think if you read it's fantastic. I don't think that there is an invisible audience much anymore. I mean I'm sure more men watch porn for instance and women aren't catered for as much but I don't see that as being about feminism.
2. People do categorise things but that is life. I remember watching Mark Kerr. He was a massive fighter who was beating the crap out of people. He was also very feminine. You can't stop people categorising things. We shouldn't be too sensitive about this stuff as well.

Anyway, I am a new fan of your new Arizona Senator - good for her, swearing on the constitution.

I don't know her but I think it's fantastic when women (or gay people or minorities in anyway) get into positions of power. I just don't believe that there is a conspiracy stopping women getting roles like this. I think over time this will happen more and more. I like that young dancing senator that is in the news a bit now.

Lastly - thank you for a thoughtful intelligent post.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 04:18:33 PM by steveo »

Cressida

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Sexism = evaluating people differently based on their sex.

Making a choice to read books based on the sex of the protagonist, by this definition, is sexist.

I hope this answers your question.

It definitely doesn't answer my question but it does show the flaws in your line of reasoning. Sexism is not anything at all like what you state. If boys like reading books about boys or men that doesn't make them sexist or the world sexist or anything at all like that. It just means they prefer stories about boys/men which is fine.

The point that you have made shows exactly why modern day feminism is warped. Modern day feminists don't want equal rights for people and people have the right to choose what they do with their lives. Modern day feminism is all about trying to engineer the world to make it so that people don't have individual choices in how they act and what they do.

Sexism is not allowing women to vote and not allowing women into positions of power and not allowing women to read books by women. Sexism is about restricting females opportunities based on their sex. It isn't about restricting peoples desires or forcing men to read books with a female protagonist.

I'm not going to waste time defending modern feminism. Most of it is focused on the wrong things, rather than focusing where it should, which is the liberation of women from patriarchy.

As for sexism: as a woman, I request that you not try to tell me what sexism is or isn't. I think this is a reasonable request.

use2betrix

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As for sexism: as a woman, I request that you not try to tell me what sexism is or isn't. I think this is a reasonable request.

Did you really just post this? Are you trying to use the fact that you are a woman to somehow mean that men canít understand sexism? Thatís not a reasonable request and itís petty you would even make that statement.

When I was a freshman in high school I had this female teacher who was blatantly a sexist feminist that hated men. Iím friends with her daughter to this day, and her daughter even tells me she no longer talks to her and how extremist she is.

She had a VERY strict rule of ďno comparing grades.Ē Kind of weird but ok. One time a girl next to me and myself turned in an assignment a day late. By her rules, this meant automatic 50%. When we got our grades back I asked the girl what she received. She got 100%, I got 50%. I asked her if she minded if I confront the teacher and she said to go ahead.

Immediately my hand shot up and I was called on. I asked ďI just received my paper back and I noticed that Cassie and myself both turned in our papers late and she got 100% and I got 50%.Ē She reminded me about her rule about comparing grades. I told her ďI understand your rule but if you arenít going to grade us fairly Iím going to ask why.Ē She told me if I kept it up I had to go to the office. I stood up, went to the office, and got in school suspension from her class indefinitely.

I also spent 4 years working at nursing homes as a CNA where probably 99% of my coworkers were all female. Again, I have several stories where I was treated differently.

Do I understand how it feels to be a woman? No way, but get off your elitist high horse by trying to tell another poster that because youíre a woman it means they are basically unable to discuss sexism.

Edit* - I do kind of understand how it feels to be a woman. Iíve dressed up in full drag as Frank N Furter for Halloween for many years. I have been sexually assaulted by more WOMEN while wearing that costume alone than many women ever would in their whole life. My wife is a beautiful woman who turns heads and gets hit on non stop. I donít think sheís ever had a stranger just grab her ass or crotch. Iíve had random women at bars grab my ass and crotch with no warning, more times than I can remember. So maybe women arenít entirely better, and I guess maybe dressing risquť has something to do with it for both genders... 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 06:03:43 PM by use2betrix »

Cressida

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use2betrix, I'm not going to have this conversation with you. It would not be productive. Please refrain from continuing to engage me on this topic.

OtherJen

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I have been watching YouTube documentaries on ultramarathon runners during my treadmill sessions recently.

I have no issue watching male or females train, run, etc. I do find it interesting that the women are far more emotional. During a documentary that was focused on women, the women cried, a lot. I donít recall any of the men crying in the documentaries Iíve watched.

Is this more nature or nurture? Is it because women are raised more to believe that crying is ok? Or - is it due to the hormonal difference between genders?

Of course, this is just a general observation and not a scientific study, and Iím sure there will be members here that state that men cry more than women.

Oh, men are just as emotional as women. The difference is that many men are socialized from an early age to believe that anger is the only acceptable negative emotion for them to express, whereas itís deemed acceptable for women to cry. Honestly, I think that the cultural stifling of emotional expression does men a major disservice.

use2betrix

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use2betrix, I'm not going to have this conversation with you. It would not be productive. Please refrain from continuing to engage me on this topic.

Youíre right, it would not be productive for you to engage. I made the post hoping for a discussion with someone that didnít think sexism was something only women can experience, understand, define, or discuss.

If you continue to make comments as such Iím going to discuss them. Youíre more than welcome to ignore them, however.