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[Fru-Gal]

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[HPstache]

Congratulating and expecting some sort of an response of acceptance from someone who's politician won seems odd to me.  Maybe that's what you're experiencing or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way?

[skp]

My take
First of all, How did you decide that they are upset. Is it just because they aren't engaging with you?
Maybe they aren't upset. Maybe they just don't want to engage with you or how to take the congratulations.

You've admitted to having Trump derangement syndrome.  Not sure how bad that syndrome was and what you have said to these people about Republicans in the past.  Maybe like me the person who you congratulated were your friends on facebook and they read a post you reposted about how Republicans don't know what a library is.   On this site Republicans have been called misogynistic,  racist and homophobic. Uneducated. Stupid.   One person here even called them EVIL. I am a republican. So you are in essence calling me that. (I have to admit in general things have improved somewhat on this site with the name calling)
So If you have had a history of saying derogatory things to them about Trump and lumping all republicans in one basket. (We are not all the same.),  maybe they just don't believe your congratulations are sincere. They have to know you aren't HAPPY about it. 
One day before the election we are told that Trump is a danger to democracy. He's Hitler. Anyone voting for trump is an idiot.  The next day everythings hunky dory. Shaking Bidens hand.
 I personally would be confused about the congratulations and not sure how to respond to it. Personally,
I am wondering how long this "truce" will last.

[PeteD01]

Perhaps!

I was expecting something like, “thank you, I think Trump can get a lot done” or whatever. Instead, silence, while the left wing people were like, “wow you are so gracious” or “I don’t know how you can even sleep at night with all the anxiety this is causing in the world.”

In the face-to-face world, what I found is

—angry statements directed at me for having voted for a woman twice
—“jokes” about how women aren’t good leaders and these two candidates were particularly hated
—angry statements about how terrible America is and this just proves it (ironically these come from both sides

When I say to known Trump voter, “congratulations… maybe the stock market returns will make up for it” they go silent… Maybe they’re not invested at all. Wouldn’t be surprised. Left and right people I know have no savings from what I can surmise.

Well, winning is one thing, but if the prize you won is the equivalent of a crumbling timeshare in Novosibirsk, Russia you might not want to hear any congrats on your good luck.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

So, where are the happy Republicans? Can I get one on this forum to accept my congratulations?

Certainly.  I was happy, though entirely unsurprised, to see Trump win again.  I hope he is able to put down his phone and govern effectively, along the paths he has chosen and been elected for, instead of being swayed by the weekly winds of outrage.  I further hope he can actually keep a cabinet around this time, instead of replacing them entirely every six months as seemed his tendency last time.  It seems, perhaps, he has been mellowed slightly by age and multiple assassination attempts?  All I want is him to act in a generally Presidential manner (dignified, respectable, and with a good bit of stoic acceptance of the time he's in).  Also, I hope he can avoid falling asleep on the table at international conferences.  That would be a nice touch.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't find Trump a particularly agreeable person.  But then neither do I find anyone who so greatly seeks power as our current politicians do to be particularly agreeable.  And it's a given that you have dirty laundry held in reserve, should you be gifted a seat of power, that will ensure you behave.  Trump is unique in that this does not seem to particularly affect nor bother him.

You've admitted to having Trump derangement syndrome.  Not sure how bad that syndrome was and what you have said to these people about Republicans in the past. 

Yes, this would be my assumption.  If someone who had spent 2016-2020 frothing at the mouth about how Evil Trump Was and How Evil Republicans were congratulated me on the Republican win in 2024, I would be exceedingly guarded in response, and would likely not accept the congratulations at face value.  I would, likely, assume I were on a hidden camera for some nefarious purposes.  Nothing against the person, it is just rare to see people change on this front, as opposed to escalate and... whatever on earth people who supported Harris are doing these days.  I don't think I know many of them, and I would be surprised if I knew one in person at any level of interaction.

—angry statements directed at me for having voted for a woman twice
—“jokes” about how women aren’t good leaders and these two candidates were particularly hated
—angry statements about how terrible America is and this just proves it (ironically these come from both sides

When I say to known Trump voter, “congratulations… maybe the stock market returns will make up for it” they go silent… Maybe they’re not invested at all. Wouldn’t be surprised. Left and right people I know have no savings from what I can surmise.

Try simply, "Congratulations," without any coded statements afterwards.  Most Americans are not heavily invested in the stock market enough for it to matter, and react very badly to politicians who say, in effect, "But let them eat stocks!" with regards to inflation and grocery price rises (or, more commonly, the assertion that this has always been a 24oz box, when you have 32oz boxes in your storage).

America has not "rejected women as leaders."  It has said, quite clearly, that two women in particular, were not desired as leaders.  One came into the campaign as though it were an irritating formality that she must suffer through before being crowned ruler (her campaign slogan and performances came across to many as "It's My Turn!"), and the second didn't even have to go through the manipulated formality of the Democratic primaries, whose campaign slogan was, "I would change nothing I have done as Vice President (which was remarkably little), also, vote for me and I will change everything you find unpleasant about the last administration."  It was not, in the slightest bit, inspiring or resonant with the American population.

The true test will be when a woman makes it through an honest primary process and faces the country for election.  At this point, I honestly expect that to happen with a Republican before a Democrat.

[sixwings]

LOL, yes I'm sure THIS time is the time Trump will finally be presidential. There's so many indications of that, what with his trolling of Trudeau, it's all so presidential. Sundowning 78 year olds have generally been known to grow up and become more presidential over time.

At this point I'm just pretty sure conservatives are just bad people who live on manufactured outrage. They can hide that they are bad people in social company for a period of time, but they are who they are. So it makes sense that they continue to be upset. I'm sure once Trump tariffs everything from Canada and Mexico raising prices across the country and destroying Americas economy they will find ways to blame Biden for it.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

I wasn’t frothing at the mouth at all in person. Nor even making “coded” statements.

Perhaps not for this instance, but if that was the trend over the previous Trump administration, that sort of thing will be "latched" and noted.  Again, it may not be ideal as people move around in positions, but most people view their political affiliation as some sort of innate attribute (absurd though this is), and it's only rarely changed.  See how much hostility various leaders over time who have changed political parties have received.  If you've been tagged as a Trump hater in the past, people will assume that this has remained - and will assume, when faced with confusing statements, that it's some variety of trap.  Because "recording people of the other political party to release the recordings on social media for the likes" is, unfortunately, a thing that has been done too often.  By both sides.

If I don't know someone's political affiliation, I won't get into a lot of details about things in a casual conversation.  Even if it's fairly clear where they stand, if I don't know, them, I tend to hedge statements and avoid staking out any particular positions.  Around a firepit with people I know?  Certainly, the conversations are a lot more fun!

But he made me feel quite bad and bullied in the workplace from 2016 onwards.

He’s dead now, motorcycle accident.

Some people are simply jerks, unfortunately.  This has become rather more popular in the past 15 years or so than it was before.  And, also, I am certainly odd in that I would far rather have a long conversation with someone I entirely disagree with than someone I agree fully with.  I learn more that way, and see different points of view.  I only ask that both sides be equipped to actually argue positions, instead of going for the talk show "a mile wide and and an inch deep" approach.  Years and years back, I had somewhat regular conversations with a genuine card carrying member of the American Communist party (I never cared to look up membership lists to see if he was actually on them).  We disagreed on just about everything, but they were exceedingly enjoyable conversations, especially over a few pints.

However, abrasive arrogance and dying in a motorcycle accident seem to go together.  Motorcycles are only marginally more forgiving than airplanes.

LOL, yes I'm sure THIS time is the time Trump will finally be presidential. There's so many indications of that, what with his trolling of Trudeau, it's all so presidential. Sundowning 78 year olds have generally been known to grow up and become more presidential over time.

I didn't say I expected it.  I said I hoped for it.  And in a very literal sense, I pray for it.  Regardless of my opinions on the man, he is the next President of the United States, and I would like to see that role handled with the dignity that my rather archaic view of civics think it ought be treated with.  I don't think he's Literally Hitler.  Nor is he Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho.  He, for better or for worse, is Trump.  What I genuinely hope for in the next election is a serious candidate (that makes it through the primaries as themselves...) who wasn't born in the 1940s.  I'd love an election between two people younger than I am.  I expect we'll have one such candidate in Vance.  Let's see if the Democrats can actually shake free someone different, or if they'll stick with Hillary 2028, "Not Dead Yet."

At this point I'm just pretty sure conservatives are just bad people who live on manufactured outrage. They can hide that they are bad people in social company for a period of time, but they are who they are.

Why, oh why, might conservatives not take anything from leftists at face value?  I wonder.  I truly wonder...

Can you define what you mean, in any depth, by "bad person"?  Or is it just a preface to a bunch of meaningless snarl words that mean "bad person" to you?

I'm sure once Trump tariffs everything from Canada and Mexico raising prices across the country and destroying Americas economy they will find ways to blame Biden for it.

What is the point of an economy?  Is it genuinely, "The cheapest mass produced crap from overseas for as many of the masses as we can manage"?  Or is there something else to it?

On the left, many seem to argue that globalization is fine, dandy, commendable.  That we no longer dirty our hands with making things ourselves, we outsource that to "them" who will work for less.  And if one particular set of "them" (China...) gets uppity, well, we'll just fine other "them"'s to do the work for us, for less.  I have worked with many of this sort of person in the past, who live in coastal enclaves, who quite literally believe there is nothing of value in America outside perhaps a 50 mile strip on the east and west coast - as long as you don't get too far north or south from New York and DC on the east coast.  Wouldn't want to consider Florida valuable, now.  It's an odd mentality in which the concept of "building or repairing" things is considered vulgar.  You work with your hands?  What is wrong with you???  Haven't you learned to code yet?  I was far from comfortable in such a place - yet, amusingly, made quite a bit of side money repairing technology for people who refused to turn a screwdriver themselves.

On the right?  I live happily in a region that is exceedingly conservative now, and people - especially boys and men - want to build.  They want to make.  And if needed, they want to, are able to, and desire to repair.  You want to see pride out here?  Talk to a teenage boy who's driving a 1970s pickup truck, who has rebuilt the engine, repaired the transmission, rewired the electrics, done a ton of body work on it to pound out the dents, and doesn't quite have the money to paint it properly yet, but it's well primered to protect it until he has the coin to do that (if the original paint isn't still viable).  They know what they've done, and are very rightly proud of the skills involved in having done so.  Meanwhile, quite a few women simply want to raise families in peace.  While on the coast, having kids by 30 is the exception, out here, not having kids by 30 is the exception, and many are far younger.  I find it a far healthier place to live.

Trump doesn't talk of handouts.  Trump talks of building things.  Of bringing back American industry.  I have no idea if he will be successful or not - again, I hope he is, though my expectations are far more tempered.  But that concept resonates with an awful lot of the country.  And I've no problem with it.

[PeteD01]

Just chill, you got your guy in and we'll see how it works out; there's no need to fish for love here.

[Kris]

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance. I can’t imagine them giving that up just because Trump won.

[skp]

Perhaps not for this instance, but if that was the trend over the previous Trump administration, that sort of thing will be "latched" and noted.

No, this was with the first 2016 admin. And it was in a professional context where we were supposed to never discuss politics, and I respected that. We did however know the similarities in our families (veterans). I was the only woman in the workplace. I did know, because the guys discussed it, that they all voted for Trump or Bernie.

If it’s not clear from all that, as the only woman I was already very careful what I said in the workplace. It was already commonplace for outsiders to assume I was someone’s wife there and not a colleague.

The second administration hasn’t even started yet, and I haven’t been on social media for years and also have been FIREd for 3 years, so no more professional contexts.

Well like I said at a minimum they know you are not happy about it.   That would question whether or not the congrats are ligit. Maybe sincere is a better word

[skp]

Frugal gal,
You have said that You are planning how to protect your family from the new administration. And you aresincerelycongratulating people. Really…

[ATtiny85]

Congratulating and expecting some sort of an response of acceptance from someone who's politician won seems odd to me.  Maybe that's what you're experiencing or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way?

I agree with this. If someone knew how I voted (they don’t and won’t) and my vote went to the winner, it would feel super weird to get some congratulations. Similar if someone offered condolences if I went with the loser.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I'm sure once Trump tariffs everything from Canada and Mexico raising prices across the country and destroying Americas economy they will find ways to blame Biden for it.

What is the point of an economy?  Is it genuinely, "The cheapest mass produced crap from overseas for as many of the masses as we can manage"?  Or is there something else to it?

On the left, many seem to argue that globalization is fine, dandy, commendable.  That we no longer dirty our hands with making things ourselves, we outsource that to "them" who will work for less.  And if one particular set of "them" (China...) gets uppity, well, we'll just fine other "them"'s to do the work for us, for less.  I have worked with many of this sort of person in the past, who live in coastal enclaves, who quite literally believe there is nothing of value in America outside perhaps a 50 mile strip on the east and west coast - as long as you don't get too far north or south from New York and DC on the east coast.  Wouldn't want to consider Florida valuable, now.  It's an odd mentality in which the concept of "building or repairing" things is considered vulgar.  You work with your hands?  What is wrong with you???  Haven't you learned to code yet?  I was far from comfortable in such a place - yet, amusingly, made quite a bit of side money repairing technology for people who refused to turn a screwdriver themselves.

On the right?  I live happily in a region that is exceedingly conservative now, and people - especially boys and men - want to build.  They want to make.  And if needed, they want to, are able to, and desire to repair.  You want to see pride out here?  Talk to a teenage boy who's driving a 1970s pickup truck, who has rebuilt the engine, repaired the transmission, rewired the electrics, done a ton of body work on it to pound out the dents, and doesn't quite have the money to paint it properly yet, but it's well primered to protect it until he has the coin to do that (if the original paint isn't still viable).  They know what they've done, and are very rightly proud of the skills involved in having done so.  Meanwhile, quite a few women simply want to raise families in peace.  While on the coast, having kids by 30 is the exception, out here, not having kids by 30 is the exception, and many are far younger.  I find it a far healthier place to live.

Trump doesn't talk of handouts.  Trump talks of building things.  Of bringing back American industry.  I have no idea if he will be successful or not - again, I hope he is, though my expectations are far more tempered.  But that concept resonates with an awful lot of the country.  And I've no problem with it.

Can the poor youngster rebuilding his 1970 Ford truck afford U.S. made hand tools?  The U.S. imports 60% of hand tools (*), which makes it affordable for people to D.I.Y.  Individuals who want to build are likely benefitting from a lower cost of tools now, as compared to before global competition drove prices down.  I think for those who want to build, the picture may be more mixed.

Biden tried to use an executive order to pay off college debt, which was popular in his party.  It might be popular for the 38% of Americans that go to college, but the other 62% don't.  College graduates tend to earn higher salaries, which makes it a regressive transfer of money from lower-salary workers to those with higher salaries (while ignoring responsibility to pay off debt).  I think Democrats have focused on college while leaving behind non-college work (union jobs in the trades, especially, which could explain why unions didn't support the Democrats for the first time in decades).

(*)
"In 2022, the share of demand met by imports reached 60%, a high for the industry and representing a decades-long trend toward hand tools being produced overseas."

[cpa cat]

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance. I can’t imagine them giving that up just because Trump won.

I think this is the root of it. People voted for Trump because they think America is a terrible place. Why would they be happy just because he won? Until America is “great again,” they have no reason to celebrate.

Let’s not forget that Trump had very low approval ratings by the time he left office the first time. Why would they feel optimistic this time?

He’ll have to actually accomplish something positive to make them happy, but the “greatness” of America is a nebulous and poorly defined fantasy, so even if he does accomplish something, it may not be what any one specific voter wanted, if they even know what they want.

[LaineyAZ]

Years ago I heard the right-wing described as "a bunch of resentments masquerading as an ideology."

That description still seems the most apt.

[Tigerpine]

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance.

It seems to me that you just described the entire country these days.

[GuitarStv]

I'm sure once Trump tariffs everything from Canada and Mexico raising prices across the country and destroying Americas economy they will find ways to blame Biden for it.

What is the point of an economy?  Is it genuinely, "The cheapest mass produced crap from overseas for as many of the masses as we can manage"?  Or is there something else to it?

On the left, many seem to argue that globalization is fine, dandy, commendable.  That we no longer dirty our hands with making things ourselves, we outsource that to "them" who will work for less.  And if one particular set of "them" (China...) gets uppity, well, we'll just fine other "them"'s to do the work for us, for less.  I have worked with many of this sort of person in the past, who live in coastal enclaves, who quite literally believe there is nothing of value in America outside perhaps a 50 mile strip on the east and west coast - as long as you don't get too far north or south from New York and DC on the east coast.  Wouldn't want to consider Florida valuable, now.  It's an odd mentality in which the concept of "building or repairing" things is considered vulgar.  You work with your hands?  What is wrong with you???  Haven't you learned to code yet?  I was far from comfortable in such a place - yet, amusingly, made quite a bit of side money repairing technology for people who refused to turn a screwdriver themselves.

Point taken about cheaply made, environmentally destructive manufactured stuff coming from third world countries.  A tariff on this stuff is likely to be a net benefit regarding quality of goods produced, and for the world that we live in.  Long term it will require that a fair wage be paid to more workers around the world.  It will push prices higher, and this will be harder for poorer people to deal with than richer . . . so hopefully there will be a corresponding plan to help those vulnerable people most hurt by this sort of policy.  That's the good side of the tariffs, but I think you're looking at this through rose coloured glasses and forgetting some dark side.

Trump has previously pushed for big tariffs on Canadian stuff citing Canada as a national threat to the US . . . and I fully expect him to do it again.  Is slapping a huge tariff on Canadian made goods and resources really going to help in preventing cheap mass produced crap from overseas?  How is this a benefit?  I suspect that Trump will be doing at least as much harm as good with his tariffs.

On the right?  I live happily in a region that is exceedingly conservative now, and people - especially boys and men - want to build.  They want to make.  And if needed, they want to, are able to, and desire to repair.  You want to see pride out here?  Talk to a teenage boy who's driving a 1970s pickup truck, who has rebuilt the engine, repaired the transmission, rewired the electrics, done a ton of body work on it to pound out the dents, and doesn't quite have the money to paint it properly yet, but it's well primered to protect it until he has the coin to do that (if the original paint isn't still viable).  They know what they've done, and are very rightly proud of the skills involved in having done so.  Meanwhile, quite a few women simply want to raise families in peace.  While on the coast, having kids by 30 is the exception, out here, not having kids by 30 is the exception, and many are far younger.  I find it a far healthier place to live.

Trump doesn't talk of handouts.  Trump talks of building things.  Of bringing back American industry.  I have no idea if he will be successful or not - again, I hope he is, though my expectations are far more tempered.  But that concept resonates with an awful lot of the country.  And I've no problem with it.

I don't believe that this is a left/right thing.  I'm in Toronto, Canada and (with the exception of a few stragglers from Alberta) we're generally waaaaaaay left of the US politically.  The desire to build and repair stuff is common among all of those 'elite' university educated kids I work with through our company co-op program.  It's a desire that I share (and why I am incredibly frustrated with many modern manufacturing process designed to thwart this).  There is no fear of getting hands dirty that I'm seeing from these left leaning young folks.  Granted, it takes a different form where working on a '70s pickup truck isn't the focus - fixing consumer electronics, doing home repairs and renovations (everything from framing/drywalling to plumbing and electrical work is very popular), working on electric vehicles (often against the wishes of the manufacturer), developing software - these are all more common things that I'm seeing.  But it's all the same drive, coming from the same place.  The ability to look at what has been done and take pride in it is constant - even with less physical creations like software development.

Agreed, the concept of building stuff is a powerful one and one that is appealing to a great many (especially younger) people.  I'd love to see this focused and funneled into things that really matter - green energy, technologies to deal with the results of the unstoppable environmental destruction we continue to perform year over year, converting our unsustainable individual transportation obsession into functional and appealing public transit options, preparations to help our rapidly aging population, etc.  My concern with many right wing policies is that they seem focused on re-living glories of an age that has passed.  Repairing and rebuilding a pickup truck engine, building an ineffective wall to keep people out of the country, increasing coal production as an energy source . . . this is squandering that drive to build things and ensuring we have a worse future.

[sixwings]

I didn't say I expected it.  I said I hoped for it.  And in a very literal sense, I pray for it.

Donald Trump is a garbage human being, your prayers are nothing but white noise for him. You should save your prayers for the children shot at school because the politicians you elect refuse to do anything to help them. Or maybe pray for the families of the children who were killed who are now being harassed by conservatives who think it's all a conspiracy theory.

On the right?  I live happily in a region that is exceedingly conservative now, and people - especially boys and men - want to build.  They want to make.  And if needed, they want to, are able to, and desire to repair. 

Here's a list of states with right to repair laws:
-california
-colorado
-massachusetts
-minnesota
-new york
-oregon

The right to repair is a democratic initiative led by democratic states. The right to repair faces nothing but opposition from conservatives, so please tell me more about how these coastal elites think that repairing something is awful.

[reeshau]

Trump doesn't talk of handouts. 

Like no income taxes on tips? (unveiled in Las Vegas)  Or social security?

I'm personally waiting for the legislation to declare tips a kind of bonus, and actually pass no income tax on bonuses.

Conversely, I'm sure somebody, somewhere will try:

"Hey boss, instead of paying me $120k a year, can you pay me minimum wage, and then tip me $100k?"

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

Can the poor youngster rebuilding his 1970 Ford truck afford U.S. made hand tools?  The U.S. imports 60% of hand tools (*), which makes it affordable for people to D.I.Y.  Individuals who want to build are likely benefitting from a lower cost of tools now, as compared to before global competition drove prices down.

It's a fair question.  I'll ask next time I run into one.  However, Snap-On seems to be the most popular option around here for working mechanics, even if they're not exactly bringing home huge money (US mechanics tend to buy their tools themselves and move them between jobs).  But I think your assertion that DIY is only feasible because of cheap imports is pretty well absurd.  Tools have never been a dominant cost of repairing a vehicle, compared to the savings of doing the work yourself, and for the history of US motor vehicles, "doing work yourself or with a friend" was the norm.  A general purpose set of Snap-On sockets and wrenches is only 2-3x the cost of the Harbor Freight version, and is rather better built in the process.

I think Democrats have focused on college while leaving behind non-college work (union jobs in the trades, especially, which could explain why unions didn't support the Democrats for the first time in decades).

That's a polite way to explain how it's actually perceived among the blue collar class.  I assure you, they're not nearly so ambiguous about the matter, and the language chosen to describe the sentiment from the Democrats is often quite colorful.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

Donald Trump is a garbage human being, your prayers are nothing but white noise for him.

Fortunately, I'm not praying to Trump.  That would be absurd.  I'm praying for Trump, to the One who can change the hardest of hearts, redeem the lives of sinners, and throughout history, has done exactly that.  Also, regardless of your, or my, personal opinions on Trump, he is the US President elect, on track to be the next US President in a bit over a month.  Romans 13 also applies.

You should save your prayers for the children shot at school because the politicians you elect refuse to do anything to help them. Or maybe pray for the families of the children who were killed who are now being harassed by conservatives who think it's all a conspiracy theory.

My state is one of the many that allows for armed teachers and staff in schools, and is also rather short on school shootings.  At least some of the more remote schools have signs pointing out that staff may be armed.  It seems to work fairly well in practice.  Though I admit I've no clue as to what you're referring to in the second sentence there, I'm sorry, I keep my news input somewhat low and have for a long while.  That which is important still manages to filter through, eventually.

The right to repair is a democratic initiative led by democratic states. The right to repair faces nothing but opposition from conservatives, so please tell me more about how these coastal elites think that repairing something is awful.

Regardless of attitudes on paper, I was the only person in a several thousand person office of tech workers who seemed willing to do deep electronics repairs (replacing screens on phones in the era when the screen and chassis were still bonded, replacing component boards deep in large laptops, and as needed, taking a soldering iron to hardware - there were some common power jack failures in that era of laptops that could be easily repaired with a high power soldering iron, if you were willing to do the job).  This all predated right to repair laws, I just found the parts I needed and did the work required, "right" to do it or not.

[jrhampt]

The conspiracy theory the poster was referring to, I assume, is Sandy Hook (CT), the elementary school massacre.

[RetireOrDieTrying]

I'm going to take an even further step back. You ask "where are the happy voters?" I think that's too specific. The question I ask is "where are the happy people?"

At least in my personal experience, the number of people who are genuinely happy are not numerous, regardless of what is or is not perceived as going their way. Jimmy Carr voiced a brilliant summary of this as "life dysmorphia." In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history, yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make. When you hear e.g. "I'd be happy if only..." then you can bet your bottom dollar that person will never be happy.

Will Pres.-elect Trump be a blessing or a curse? In all likelihood, a combination of both, and that's true for every President, of every stripe, over this country's course. I refuse to delegate my mindset or happiness to anyone else, regardless of whether or not my favored candidate is successful at the polls.

Full disclosure: I did not vote - and have never voted - for Pres.-elect Trump.

[RetireOrDieTrying]

I'm not praying to Trump... I'm praying for Trump

Excellent reply.

[Fru-Gal]

I'm going to take an even further step back. You ask "where are the happy voters?" I think that's too specific. The question I ask is "where are the happy people?"

At least in my personal experience, the number of people who are genuinely happy are not numerous, regardless of what is or is not perceived as going their way. Jimmy Carr voiced a brilliant summary of this as "life dysmorphia." In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history, yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make. When you hear e.g. "I'd be happy if only..." then you can bet your bottom dollar that person will never be happy.

Will Pres.-elect Trump be a blessing or a curse? In all likelihood, a combination of both, and that's true for every President, of every stripe, over this country's course. I refuse to delegate my mindset or happiness to anyone else, regardless of whether or not my favored candidate is successful at the polls.

Full disclosure: I did not vote - and have never voted - for Pres.-elect Trump.

Amen to all this! Seeking solutions to suffering, I came to agree with a lot of what you said above. In general, positive psychology is rarely used or understood. We prefer to focus on pathology!

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history...

It turns out humans are very adaptable to a wide range of circumstances, and scale emotions to match!  It's also why that high of some fancy new bit of consumer tech, or car, or whatever, doesn't actually change things for long.  But it certainly makes it harder to "give up the features you've come to rely on."  It's a lot easier to never have heated seats in the winter than to have to go from having heated seats back to not having them.  You literally don't know what you're missing (except for the awkward moments in someone else's car of your butt sweating and not knowing which button to press...).

...yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

Sure.  There's a vast, highly paid and profitable, world-wide effort, delivered mostly through our pocket black mirrors, to ensure that people are as dissatisfied as possible with their life.  It's far easier to sell things, or influence, people who are upset and dissatisfied with their lives, than to do the same to someone who is happy and content with what they have.  Someone who thinks their car is perfectly reasonable and functional, well maintained, and simple enough to not be annoying, won't be in the market for a new car.  Someone who's convinced that the same vehicle is an unsafe, obsolete, un-connected unrepairable disaster, on the other hand...

We literally buy (at high cost, and high ongoing costs for many people) the tools used to enslave us and make us dissatisfied with our lives.  It's absurd.  Yet try explaining to people that you carry a flip phone because you don't want a smartphone, and you get some really odd looks.  Also, a lot of people who are far more interested than they were a few years ago in the concept.

Even before this particular mutation occurred, "comparing your entire life to the best, chosen, refined, selected, and often deceptively taken moments of other people's lives they chose to present" is a recipe for dissatisfaction.  Even if you know this, it's hard to avoid it.  You see nothing but highlights reels of often hundreds or thousands of other people, compared to the entirety of your life.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make.

Voskamp's book "A Thousand Gifts" is a good read on the matter, if you can get through her rather roundabout writing style.

[Just Joe]

Right to repair is simply forcing manufacturers to provide a way to acquire repair information and/or parts. You have always been able to do as you please with your consumer goods but lately it has been difficult to get the repair information or parts in an affordable way.

Once upon a time I could buy a Bentley Publishers or Helm Publishers or pro-Chilton manual for my cars (VW / Honda / any brand). Now I am required in some cases to subscribe to an info service for the manuals. I can't buy them. 

As for cheap tools - cheap tools enabled me as a teen to do alot for myself. I could not come close to affording quality tools. I still have a set of Chinese wrenches from the early 80s. And they work, most of them. A couple of the wrenches were not well made and thus needed to some adjustment to fit. I once bought a $10 set of flea market screw drivers that helped me through a task b/c they were not durable. I bought better when I could afford to. I liked Craftsman and have some of their tools. Sears sort of lost their way at the end. I could buy a set of sockets for one price or they would sell me a socket for $10 each which was quite high compared to the cost of a set.

If tariffs make Chinese tools expensive then they'll be made somewhere else and imported. And used tools will go up in value.

https://shop.snapon.com/categories/3-8%22-Drive-6%2F12-Point-Chrome-SAE/674818
~$4000

Harbor Freight's best socket brand is ICON: https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-sae-and-metric-modular-general-service-socket-set-54-piece-70469.html
$150

For $4000 I could buy everything Harbor Freight sells in the socket wrench category and more. I won't dispute that SnapOn is a quality tool. I won't dispute that HF would not likely last in daily use for heavy equipment mechanics.

For the home level teenager and me, a 50+ year old classic car enthusiast and DIY homeowner, many of their tools have lasted me more than 20 years. Shop carefully of course. They sell some real bargain crap that will break on the first project like those $10 screwdrivers I bought from a flea market - but sometimes that is what a person's budget will allow so they can repair their car and get to work tomorrow. 

Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/43-amp-4-12-in-angle-grinder-with-slide-switch-58089.html?_br_psugg_q=grinder

This grinder can be had for $10 when on sale. I have two of them. The first one I ever bought lasted 15 minutes before the motor burned up. NOT a HD tool. I found it is fine for thin cutoff discs and flapper sanding discs if kept cool. For real work, buy better. That's what my two cheapo grinders do - thin cutoff wheels and sanding discs b/c neither operation lasts long or requires many amps.

[GuitarStv]

In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history...

It turns out humans are very adaptable to a wide range of circumstances, and scale emotions to match!  It's also why that high of some fancy new bit of consumer tech, or car, or whatever, doesn't actually change things for long.  But it certainly makes it harder to "give up the features you've come to rely on."  It's a lot easier to never have heated seats in the winter than to have to go from having heated seats back to not having them.  You literally don't know what you're missing (except for the awkward moments in someone else's car of your butt sweating and not knowing which button to press...).

...yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

Sure.  There's a vast, highly paid and profitable, world-wide effort, delivered mostly through our pocket black mirrors, to ensure that people are as dissatisfied as possible with their life.  It's far easier to sell things, or influence, people who are upset and dissatisfied with their lives, than to do the same to someone who is happy and content with what they have.  Someone who thinks their car is perfectly reasonable and functional, well maintained, and simple enough to not be annoying, won't be in the market for a new car.  Someone who's convinced that the same vehicle is an unsafe, obsolete, un-connected unrepairable disaster, on the other hand...

We literally buy (at high cost, and high ongoing costs for many people) the tools used to enslave us and make us dissatisfied with our lives.  It's absurd.  Yet try explaining to people that you carry a flip phone because you don't want a smartphone, and you get some really odd looks.  Also, a lot of people who are far more interested than they were a few years ago in the concept.

Even before this particular mutation occurred, "comparing your entire life to the best, chosen, refined, selected, and often deceptively taken moments of other people's lives they chose to present" is a recipe for dissatisfaction.  Even if you know this, it's hard to avoid it.  You see nothing but highlights reels of often hundreds or thousands of other people, compared to the entirety of your life.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make.

Voskamp's book "A Thousand Gifts" is a good read on the matter, if you can get through her rather roundabout writing style.

Humans aren't designed to eat processed high fat, high sugar food on a daily basis.  Humans aren't designed to eat massive quantities of dyes, preservatives, pesticides or to breathe toxic fumes every day of their lives.  We're not designed to have microplastics circulating our bloodstream starting in the womb.  We did not evolve to consume a credit card worth of plastic each week.  Humans are very tribal animals, forming a few close bonds and a limited number of more distant social bonds.  We just aren't designed to be around tens of thousands of other human beings who we don't know at all, being forced to interact with them all on a regular basis.  We're not designed to work for eight hours a day doing specific tasks that have little tangible value to the world.  Then you throw the whole impact of addictive electronic devices designed to disrupt your attention and draw your interest at all times of the day in any way possible.

Fundamentally, human beings are biological machines.  We're designed to operate in certain environmental conditions, consuming certain foods, with certain smallish social groupings.  The modern world works contrary to that, and I strongly suspect, this is the cause of the sadness/dissatisfaction so commonly felt by people who are (by a great many measures) better off than ever before in history.  It's not a matter of ungratefulness . . . that's far to simplistic a response, and ignores the root cause.

[Fru-Gal]

In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history...

It turns out humans are very adaptable to a wide range of circumstances, and scale emotions to match!  It's also why that high of some fancy new bit of consumer tech, or car, or whatever, doesn't actually change things for long.  But it certainly makes it harder to "give up the features you've come to rely on."  It's a lot easier to never have heated seats in the winter than to have to go from having heated seats back to not having them.  You literally don't know what you're missing (except for the awkward moments in someone else's car of your butt sweating and not knowing which button to press...).

...yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

Sure.  There's a vast, highly paid and profitable, world-wide effort, delivered mostly through our pocket black mirrors, to ensure that people are as dissatisfied as possible with their life.  It's far easier to sell things, or influence, people who are upset and dissatisfied with their lives, than to do the same to someone who is happy and content with what they have.  Someone who thinks their car is perfectly reasonable and functional, well maintained, and simple enough to not be annoying, won't be in the market for a new car.  Someone who's convinced that the same vehicle is an unsafe, obsolete, un-connected unrepairable disaster, on the other hand...

We literally buy (at high cost, and high ongoing costs for many people) the tools used to enslave us and make us dissatisfied with our lives.  It's absurd.  Yet try explaining to people that you carry a flip phone because you don't want a smartphone, and you get some really odd looks.  Also, a lot of people who are far more interested than they were a few years ago in the concept.

Even before this particular mutation occurred, "comparing your entire life to the best, chosen, refined, selected, and often deceptively taken moments of other people's lives they chose to present" is a recipe for dissatisfaction.  Even if you know this, it's hard to avoid it.  You see nothing but highlights reels of often hundreds or thousands of other people, compared to the entirety of your life.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make.

Voskamp's book "A Thousand Gifts" is a good read on the matter, if you can get through her rather roundabout writing style.

Humans aren't designed to eat processed high fat, high sugar food on a daily basis.  Humans aren't designed to eat massive quantities of dyes, preservatives, pesticides or to breathe toxic fumes every day of their lives.  We're not designed to have microplastics circulating our bloodstream starting in the womb.  We did not evolve to consume a credit card worth of plastic each week.  Humans are very tribal animals, forming a few close bonds and a limited number of more distant social bonds.  We just aren't designed to be around tens of thousands of other human beings who we don't know at all, being forced to interact with them all on a regular basis.  We're not designed to work for eight hours a day doing specific tasks that have little tangible value to the world.  Then you throw the whole impact of addictive electronic devices designed to disrupt your attention and draw your interest at all times of the day in any way possible.

Fundamentally, human beings are biological machines.  We're designed to operate in certain environmental conditions, consuming certain foods, with certain smallish social groupings.  The modern world works contrary to that, and I strongly suspect, this is the cause of the sadness/dissatisfaction so commonly felt by people who are (by a great many measures) better off than ever before in history.  It's not a matter of ungratefulness . . . that's far to simplistic a response, and ignores the root cause.

Ah, but we currently have an optionality that is pretty spectacular. So, while we have a high obesity rate, we also have more student and amateur and elite and masters athletes breaking records than ever before. We have people becoming stronger and increasing their health span to astonishing levels.

However, if we hadn’t banned DDT, there would be no more bald eagles. So yeah.

[GuitarStv]

In many objective ways our lives are better than in all of recorded human history...

It turns out humans are very adaptable to a wide range of circumstances, and scale emotions to match!  It's also why that high of some fancy new bit of consumer tech, or car, or whatever, doesn't actually change things for long.  But it certainly makes it harder to "give up the features you've come to rely on."  It's a lot easier to never have heated seats in the winter than to have to go from having heated seats back to not having them.  You literally don't know what you're missing (except for the awkward moments in someone else's car of your butt sweating and not knowing which button to press...).

...yet if I ask a random sampling of my family, friends, and acquaintances across all socio-economic and political realms how they feel about the direction of the world/country/environment/finances/healthcare/whatever, by their responses you'd think that we've never had it so bad.

Sure.  There's a vast, highly paid and profitable, world-wide effort, delivered mostly through our pocket black mirrors, to ensure that people are as dissatisfied as possible with their life.  It's far easier to sell things, or influence, people who are upset and dissatisfied with their lives, than to do the same to someone who is happy and content with what they have.  Someone who thinks their car is perfectly reasonable and functional, well maintained, and simple enough to not be annoying, won't be in the market for a new car.  Someone who's convinced that the same vehicle is an unsafe, obsolete, un-connected unrepairable disaster, on the other hand...

We literally buy (at high cost, and high ongoing costs for many people) the tools used to enslave us and make us dissatisfied with our lives.  It's absurd.  Yet try explaining to people that you carry a flip phone because you don't want a smartphone, and you get some really odd looks.  Also, a lot of people who are far more interested than they were a few years ago in the concept.

Even before this particular mutation occurred, "comparing your entire life to the best, chosen, refined, selected, and often deceptively taken moments of other people's lives they chose to present" is a recipe for dissatisfaction.  Even if you know this, it's hard to avoid it.  You see nothing but highlights reels of often hundreds or thousands of other people, compared to the entirety of your life.

As a student of history, I know that this is utter rubbish, but it's simply a view into ungrateful minds. I know - I used to be one. I started actively looking for things for which to be genuinely appreciative. I found that you can find good in just about anything, and being truly happy is a choice which only each person can make.

Voskamp's book "A Thousand Gifts" is a good read on the matter, if you can get through her rather roundabout writing style.

Humans aren't designed to eat processed high fat, high sugar food on a daily basis.  Humans aren't designed to eat massive quantities of dyes, preservatives, pesticides or to breathe toxic fumes every day of their lives.  We're not designed to have microplastics circulating our bloodstream starting in the womb.  We did not evolve to consume a credit card worth of plastic each week.  Humans are very tribal animals, forming a few close bonds and a limited number of more distant social bonds.  We just aren't designed to be around tens of thousands of other human beings who we don't know at all, being forced to interact with them all on a regular basis.  We're not designed to work for eight hours a day doing specific tasks that have little tangible value to the world.  Then you throw the whole impact of addictive electronic devices designed to disrupt your attention and draw your interest at all times of the day in any way possible.

Fundamentally, human beings are biological machines.  We're designed to operate in certain environmental conditions, consuming certain foods, with certain smallish social groupings.  The modern world works contrary to that, and I strongly suspect, this is the cause of the sadness/dissatisfaction so commonly felt by people who are (by a great many measures) better off than ever before in history.  It's not a matter of ungratefulness . . . that's far to simplistic a response, and ignores the root cause.

Ah, but we currently have an optionality that is pretty spectacular. So, while we have a high obesity rate, we also have more student and amateur and elite and masters athletes breaking records than ever before. We have people becoming stronger and increasing their health span to astonishing levels.

However, if we hadn’t banned DDT, there would be no more bald eagles. So yeah.

I'd wager that (controlling for other mentioned variables) the athletes are generally happier than the obese, simply because they're keeping their biological machine in slightly better order.

[ChpBstrd]

Interestingly, Trump has backed off of some of his more extreme positions now that he's been elected:

• Said he won't try to fire Jerome Powell
• Has said not a peep about privatizing Fannie or Freddie
• Had a cordial visit with the Bidens
• Said he will work with Democrats on a plan for immigrant children who grew up in the US
• Ruled out cutting or raising eligibility for Medicare or Social Security
• Said he will not appoint a special prosecutor to go after Biden
• Said he might support raising the minimum wage

So maybe conservatives have these things to be upset about. Campaign rhetoric is suddenly changing in a more pragmatic direction, which is interesting in itself. In the past, candidates moderated themselves in the pursuit of moderate swing voters, but Trump won by leaning to the extremes to motivate his base, and may now have to backpedal on certain promises to blow up the system to keep the ruling party together.

[swashbucklinstache]

Most people I know are not super politically active.

The conservatives I know feel remarkably similar to how the liberals I know felt when Biden won. That same feeling - a sense of relief for 4 years without evermore crazy inflicted on them by the bad other side - rather than happiness. They are angry because they're surrounded by anger content. They feel how the algorithm tells them to feel. Telling them to be angry and afraid motivates them to vote and not to change. Telling them that coastal elites hate them and God too. We already know this is nakedly how opinions of the economy are shaped, though that is dramatically uneven by political party.

Likewise I can't even suggest that things are - gasp - getting better (not 'are good') for any subset of humanity without my most politically conscious liberal friends nearly frothing at the mouth at the gall. I can't even get them to read past the headline of a study that says young liberals' opinions on the economy/similar are growing more and more influenced by headlines and anecdotes than underlying economic/similar metrics. To those individuals I counsel: is this the best approach for your own life? Is there anyone who benefits from you being angry and pessimistic? The answers, in these specific cases, are obviously No and obviously Yes to a comical degree. I'm talking about people in LCOL making 150k each electing to not have kids because 'the economy is so terrible' and similar and being angry about it. After hours of discussion, this is not a thing they're saying to hide another reason. They want kids but despite being 95th percentile income in one of the greatest economies in history, the economy is stopping them. No amount of data or even data about people in their same positions being influenced by the things they are being influenced by could change their minds.

Maybe that is me aging into my mid-30s. It was easy pickings this year. Relative unknown as a VP pick? Taking bets on how long until friends who had never heard of him would be telling me that JD Vance was the second worst person on Earth. Conservatives, that Harris was actually what was "wrong" with Biden's presidency all along and singlehandedly "ruined" San Francisco. One side supports tariffs because their team support tariffs, no matter what bedtime stories they tell themselves. The other side hates tariffs because their team tells them tariffs are the worst thing anyone has ever done and always "fail."

Experts, politically conscious people, and smart people can have great discussions about all of the above including reasonable minds disagreeing. There's lots of nuance and this isn't a "both sides" take in the pejorative sense. But most of the people I know don't have a ton of time to focus on this stuff, aren't economists, and maybe just aren't all that smart. So they just consume and repeat the anger content and are angry. Like anyone else I have my beliefs which group is more to blame but no one cares.

[Morning Glory]

Right to repair is simply forcing manufacturers to provide a way to acquire repair information and/or parts. You have always been able to do as you please with your consumer goods but lately it has been difficult to get the repair information or parts in an affordable way.

Once upon a time I could buy a Bentley Publishers or Helm Publishers or pro-Chilton manual for my cars (VW / Honda / any brand). Now I am required in some cases to subscribe to an info service for the manuals. I can't buy them. 

As for cheap tools - cheap tools enabled me as a teen to do alot for myself. I could not come close to affording quality tools. I still have a set of Chinese wrenches from the early 80s. And they work, most of them. A couple of the wrenches were not well made and thus needed to some adjustment to fit. I once bought a $10 set of flea market screw drivers that helped me through a task b/c they were not durable. I bought better when I could afford to. I liked Craftsman and have some of their tools. Sears sort of lost their way at the end. I could buy a set of sockets for one price or they would sell me a socket for $10 each which was quite high compared to the cost of a set.

If tariffs make Chinese tools expensive then they'll be made somewhere else and imported. And used tools will go up in value.

https://shop.snapon.com/categories/3-8%22-Drive-6%2F12-Point-Chrome-SAE/674818
~$4000

Harbor Freight's best socket brand is ICON: https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-sae-and-metric-modular-general-service-socket-set-54-piece-70469.html
$150

For $4000 I could buy everything Harbor Freight sells in the socket wrench category and more. I won't dispute that SnapOn is a quality tool. I won't dispute that HF would not likely last in daily use for heavy equipment mechanics.

For the home level teenager and me, a 50+ year old classic car enthusiast and DIY homeowner, many of their tools have lasted me more than 20 years. Shop carefully of course. They sell some real bargain crap that will break on the first project like those $10 screwdrivers I bought from a flea market - but sometimes that is what a person's budget will allow so they can repair their car and get to work tomorrow. 

Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/43-amp-4-12-in-angle-grinder-with-slide-switch-58089.html?_br_psugg_q=grinder

This grinder can be had for $10 when on sale. I have two of them. The first one I ever bought lasted 15 minutes before the motor burned up. NOT a HD tool. I found it is fine for thin cutoff discs and flapper sanding discs if kept cool. For real work, buy better. That's what my two cheapo grinders do - thin cutoff wheels and sanding discs b/c neither operation lasts long or requires many amps.

Psst... check your library's website for the Chilton car repair manuals.  Mine has access to the whole database.

[Ron Scott]

Congratulating and expecting some sort of an response of acceptance from someone who's politician won seems odd to me.  Maybe that's what you're experiencing or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way?

I agree with this. If someone knew how I voted (they don’t and won’t) and my vote went to the winner, it would feel super weird to get some congratulations. Similar if someone offered condolences if I went with the loser.

My friends who voted for Trump—mostly a bit reluctantly—are fine now and I don’t get anger or upsetment. Mostly they’re just hoping things turn out OK like I do.

[oldtoyota]

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance. I can’t imagine them giving that up just because Trump won.

I think this is the root of it. People voted for Trump because they think America is a terrible place. Why would they be happy just because he won? Until America is “great again,” they have no reason to celebrate.

Let’s not forget that Trump had very low approval ratings by the time he left office the first time. Why would they feel optimistic this time?

He’ll have to actually accomplish something positive to make them happy, but the “greatness” of America is a nebulous and poorly defined fantasy, so even if he does accomplish something, it may not be what any one specific voter wanted, if they even know what they want.

Years ago, one voter quoted in an article said candidate 1 had done nothing to help them find a job and improve their lives, so they were voting for candidate 2.

I was really struck by the idea that anyone thinks the president has much to do with them finding a job. To some extent, they do. But, basically, I've always felt I was on my own in that department and not relying on a president to make decisions that somehow got me a job.

I realize this was only one person quote in an article, yet I assume others must share this thinking.

[Morning Glory]

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance. I can’t imagine them giving that up just because Trump won.

I think this is the root of it. People voted for Trump because they think America is a terrible place. Why would they be happy just because he won? Until America is “great again,” they have no reason to celebrate.

Let’s not forget that Trump had very low approval ratings by the time he left office the first time. Why would they feel optimistic this time?

He’ll have to actually accomplish something positive to make them happy, but the “greatness” of America is a nebulous and poorly defined fantasy, so even if he does accomplish something, it may not be what any one specific voter wanted, if they even know what they want.

Years ago, one voter quoted in an article said candidate 1 had done nothing to help them find a job and improve their lives, so they were voting for candidate 2.

I was really struck by the idea that anyone thinks the president has much to do with them finding a job. To some extent, they do. But, basically, I've always felt I was on my own in that department and not relying on a president to make decisions that somehow got me a job.

I realize this was only one person quote in an article, yet I assume others must share this thinking.

The way it's taught in schools isn't the most engaging.  I had a conversation with my kid today about his report card. His excuse for a C in social studies was that he had an A in science and "science is more important"  I replied that if people don't know their social studies,  that's how we get stuck with politicians who don't listen to the scientists.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Can the poor youngster rebuilding his 1970 Ford truck afford U.S. made hand tools?  The U.S. imports 60% of hand tools (*), which makes it affordable for people to D.I.Y.  Individuals who want to build are likely benefitting from a lower cost of tools now, as compared to before global competition drove prices down.

It's a fair question.  I'll ask next time I run into one.  However, Snap-On seems to be the most popular option around here for working mechanics, even if they're not exactly bringing home huge money (US mechanics tend to buy their tools themselves and move them between jobs).  But I think your assertion that DIY is only feasible because of cheap imports is pretty well absurd.  Tools have never been a dominant cost of repairing a vehicle, compared to the savings of doing the work yourself, and for the history of US motor vehicles, "doing work yourself or with a friend" was the norm.  A general purpose set of Snap-On sockets and wrenches is only 2-3x the cost of the Harbor Freight version, and is rather better built in the process.

For a DIYer, you're saying tools are cheap because of the dollars they didn't spend on a mechanic.  A DIYer's labor is free, which makes the tools far more expensive.  All that aside, if you think professionals and amateurs both buy domestic, the data doesn't match the source I cited: 60% of hand tools are imported.

I think Democrats have focused on college while leaving behind non-college work (union jobs in the trades, especially, which could explain why unions didn't support the Democrats for the first time in decades).

That's a polite way to explain how it's actually perceived among the blue collar class.  I assure you, they're not nearly so ambiguous about the matter, and the language chosen to describe the sentiment from the Democrats is often quite colorful.

My audience is this forum, where Democrats predominate.  I called it "regressive" because it is hypocritical for progressives to support it.

[partgypsy]

My father passed in 2020. He's a veteran and he was very eloquent and outspoken why Trump should not be near levers of power. It had to do with behaving in a corrupt manner. Using the office for personal gain for himself, family members, associates. Lack of competence. Not listening to people smarter than him(immigration, pandemic, weather, climate change, economics).Dad did not live to see him not accepting the results of a legitimate election, and attempting a self coup. But essentially predicted it. I don't expect people who voted for Trump to be civil to me, so Im going to avoid them. At the very least they are ok with carrying water for a grifter felon so we are not going to agree. The institutions that we rely on (education, free press, independent judiciary, nondiscrimination laws, right to vote) are going to be attacked and eroded so the wealthy and corporations thrive. I'm just going to keep my head down. Yes, people are adaptable they get used to different and worse circumstances. Anyways, the doc I watched recently was, buy now. Maybe something from both sides of the aisle can watch and ponder?

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

For a DIYer, you're saying tools are cheap because of the dollars they didn't spend on a mechanic.  A DIYer's labor is free, which makes the tools far more expensive.  All that aside, if you think professionals and amateurs both buy domestic, the data doesn't match the source I cited: 60% of hand tools are imported.

I'm saying that I don't think a higher cost of tools, with tariffs or buying locally, would substantially impact the rates of DIY work on vehicles, and certainly wouldn't drive people currently doing DIY work (often because they cannot afford a shop) to suddenly go "Wait, I can't afford a wrench, I'll take my car to the shop instead."

The cost of tools is a rounding error in the costs of keeping a vehicle running, and doubling or tripling that cost doesn't change the ratios much.  I say this having spent a very long while driving the class of vehicles where "the toolbox in the back was worth a good bit more than I paid for the entire car."  And it wasn't a terribly high end toolbox.

[partgypsy]

Diy is not a right left divide. It is true that progressives have protected and advocated for the right to repair.

[Just Joe]

High tool prices just leads people to do things they shouldn't like buying tools and then returning them once the repair is complete. I knew a friend of our family who the 1980s proudly did that.

Or higher prices might lead to more thefts and hot flea market tool sales. 

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

High tool prices just leads people to do things they shouldn't like buying tools and then returning them once the repair is complete.

Many parts stores do this, by design: You buy one-off kits for esoteric repair jobs, and get a full refund when you return them in good condition.  This is common for ball joint tools, fan wrenches, and probably a range of other things I've not had to deal with.

"Tool lending libraries" are also a thing.  So is simply having tools shared among a group of friends on an informal basis.  Or some shared garage space.  You all act like these are revolutionary new problems that weren't well solved in the past.

Or higher prices might lead to more thefts and hot flea market tool sales.

Keep at it!  Those straws won't grasp themselves!  Seriously?  Do you actually read what you post?

I am confident that if the price of basic tools goes up due to not having China build all our stuff, America will survive - because it's been that way before.

China is a hostile, aggressive, sticky-fingered foreign power opposed to US interests, that thrives (and undercuts the rest of the world) on human rights abuses and environmental catastrophes ("Sorry about your village there, your ancestors shouldn't have put it where we were going to put our toxic tailings pile 200 years later..."), and it's quite amusing (depressing, but at least entertaining at times) to watch progressives run to defend them "Because what if we didn't have cheap, disposable, poorly hacked together consumer goods?"  They have built their technical industries on outright theft of western IP, and are now global leaders in using technology to oppress their citizens (endless surveillance of all things, the various things lumped under "social credit score", etc).

And I am very much opposed to sending a lot of money to that regime.  If people have to work out some different ways of sharing tools to get away from that system of atrocities, because the cost for hand tools goes up, so be it.  And if that means the money we would have sent to China stays in the US?  Good.

My guess is that actual concerns are more closely related to the likely rise in cost of the consumer tech chains that the chattering classes use, but... we're not talking about that yet.  ;)  Can't say it would upset me terribly much to see fewer black mirrors and disposable earsticks out in public, though.

[twinstudy]

And I am very much opposed to sending a lot of money to that regime.  If people have to work out some different ways of sharing tools to get away from that system of atrocities, because the cost for hand tools goes up, so be it.  And if that means the money we would have sent to China stays in the US?  Good.

My guess is that actual concerns are more closely related to the likely rise in cost of the consumer tech chains that the chattering classes use, but... we're not talking about that yet.  ;)  Can't say it would upset me terribly much to see fewer black mirrors and disposable earsticks out in public, though.

If you dislike the Chinese regime - fine - but the solution is not to support economic efficiency by imposing tariffs. The solution would be to have products made in other countries instead. Globalisation has brought much to the first world, and has made our purchasing power (for all things, not just iPhones) much greater. Rewarding inefficiency is not something I'd want to do.

MAGA seems to be the party of anger and grievance. I can’t imagine them giving that up just because Trump won.

I think this is the root of it. People voted for Trump because they think America is a terrible place. Why would they be happy just because he won? Until America is “great again,” they have no reason to celebrate.

Let’s not forget that Trump had very low approval ratings by the time he left office the first time. Why would they feel optimistic this time?

He’ll have to actually accomplish something positive to make them happy, but the “greatness” of America is a nebulous and poorly defined fantasy, so even if he does accomplish something, it may not be what any one specific voter wanted, if they even know what they want.

Years ago, one voter quoted in an article said candidate 1 had done nothing to help them find a job and improve their lives, so they were voting for candidate 2.

I was really struck by the idea that anyone thinks the president has much to do with them finding a job. To some extent, they do. But, basically, I've always felt I was on my own in that department and not relying on a president to make decisions that somehow got me a job.

I realize this was only one person quote in an article, yet I assume others must share this thinking.

Yeah, I feel the same. People criticise the government for complex things like interest rates or the unemployment rate which are largely outside their power to control. Putting that aside, it's not helpful to blame someone else for things that are your own responsibility.

[StarBright]

I have a couple of family members who are super MAGA, I'm pretty liberal. I have almost always kept my mouth shut about politics around these family members. They had known me for several years before they realized I was a Democrat. So it isn't like I am spouting political stuff often.

I had one call me after the election asking if I was excited that Trump won, and didn't I agree that he would be the best president? I responded very neutrally and they didn't like it. They kept pressing me.

A couple of weeks later they were pushing us to visit for the new year and they really wanted us to be there through the election certification. Always nice to have not enough vacation time as an excuse.

Aside from these intense family members, I had a couple of folks tag me in FB posts where they were insulting Harris and women in general. But these are pretty MAGA-intense folks, not your run of the mill Repub voter. 

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I'm of the view most Americans don't realize how much of their stuff is made in China.  I expect 60-100% tariffs on China to hit a backlash later as people protest they didn't know how much it would cost them personally.  Ideally, people could acknowledge how much tariffs will cost them, and then agree to tariffs anyways.

An example is election merchandise from both Trump and Harris.  China flooded the market with cheaper versions, so if you heard a MAGA voter talking about a hat costing under $5, that hat was made in China.  Maybe people don't care about hypocrisy anymore, but I would assume a Trump supporter wouldn't want to buy from China if they're supporting 60% to 100% tariffs.  And yet they did.
https://www.voanews.com/a/made-in-china-election-merchandise-floods-us-market/7832970.html

[sixwings]

I'm of the view most Americans don't realize how much of their stuff is made in China.  I expect 60-100% tariffs on China to hit a backlash later as people protest they didn't know how much it would cost them personally.  Ideally, people could acknowledge how much tariffs will cost them, and then agree to tariffs anyways.

An example is election merchandise from both Trump and Harris.  China flooded the market with cheaper versions, so if you heard a MAGA voter talking about a hat costing under $5, that hat was made in China.  Maybe people don't care about hypocrisy anymore, but I would assume a Trump supporter wouldn't want to buy from China if they're supporting 60% to 100% tariffs.  And yet they did.
https://www.voanews.com/a/made-in-china-election-merchandise-floods-us-market/7832970.html

So much of what Trump says about tariffs is just stupid and he's convinced a huge portion of the american electorate that they are economists because they repeat dumb talking points from a sundowning 78 year old. At this point I hope he just does the tariffs things so these morons can suffer the consequences of their actions and get wrecked.

People in general don't know how supply chains work. Like the discussion earlier in the thread about tools, america exports about 200M in tools and imports about 500M in tools. However, what that doesn't capture is how many of the parts and materials rely on free trade to create affordable tools. All of the tools produced in american relies on materials and parts that are produced in other countries and assembled in america. Tariffs make all of that more expensive, making american tools more expensive, which kills exports. At the same time it increases the input costs and availability of tools which decreases demand in the US, so tool manufacturers get hit both by decreasing exports and decreasing demand in their own country.

But then they say something stupid like "america will just ramp up production of the parts" like that's super easy and fast or even possible. It's very expensive to build a factory and requires a lot of capital, and can take a long time, so even if there's the money and will to build factories that produce parts it will take years for that to come online and it may not even be cheaper than the parts with the tariff cost added on. However, as was seen in the first round of tariffs companies  didn't actually build new production in the US, they just passed on the costs to consumers and american exports became less competitive.

In addition to that, if in the future someone wants to create a competing tool, their options for production become limited to begging the very small number of  billionaires that own the means of production for permission to produce in their factories. Right now these start ups have a lot of options of where to manufacture around the world which decreases costs and reduces the power of oligarchs. In a world where america has to manufacture their own stuff the means of production will be owned by a very small number of people who will decide who the winners and losers are.

On top of that, the argument makes the assumption that there are available substitutes when in a lot cases there is not. For instance america does not have a substitute for vegetables in the winter, there are very real constraints due to the climate and availability of vegetable producing land in the US, a tariff on imported vegetables from mexico does nothing for american vegetable production because there are no substitutes, it just makes vegetables in january more expensive. For tools, they rely on inputs of materials that are often not available in the US in the quantities needed so all a tariff does there is drive up the price of tools.

And the argument also assumes that america are the only consumers in the world, which was true maybe in 1950 as the rest of the developed world recuperated from WW2 and heavy population centers like Brazil, China and India were not developed. Those countries are developing rapidly and is creating new consumer bases which will want american tools. However american tools will now be too expensive for them. America should be trying to drive down the cost of tool inputs so that they can export tools to these growing and developing countries instead of killing them.

The tariffs plan is just stupid, there's literally nothing good about this, it was already tried and what Trump says didn't actually happen, but whatever, fuck it. Let the morons put their face on a very hot stove. It will take america decades to recover from such stupid policy, if it's even able to, but whatever, maybe america has had it too good and it's time to suffer.

https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/federal/tariffs/

Before accounting for behavioral effects, the $79 billion in higher tariffs amounts to an average annual tax increase on US households of $625. Based on actual revenue collections data, trade war tariffs have directly increased tax collections by $200 to $300 annually per US household, on average. Both estimates understate the cost to US households because they do not factor in the lost output, lower incomes, and loss in consumer choice the tariffs have caused.

In December 2019, Federal Reserve economists Aaron Flaaen and Justin Pierce found a net decrease in manufacturing employment due to the tariffs, suggesting that the benefit of increased production in protected industries was outweighed by the consequences of rising input costs and retaliatory tariffs.

A December 2021 review of the data and methods used to estimate the trade war effects through 2021, by Pablo Fajgelbaum and Amit Khandelwal, concluded that “US consumers of imported goods have borne the brunt of the tariffs through higher prices, and that the trade war has lowered aggregate real income in both the US and China, although not by large magnitudes relative to GDP.”

A May 2023 United States International Trade Commission report from Peter Herman and others found evidence for near complete pass-through of the steel, aluminum, and Chinese tariffs to US prices. It also found an estimated $2.8 billion production increase in industries protected by the steel and aluminum tariffs was met with a $3.4 billion production decrease in downstream industries affected by higher input prices.

A January 2024 study by David Autor and others concludes that the 2018–2019 tariffs failed to provide economic help to the heartland: import tariffs had “neither a sizable nor significant effect on US employment in regions with newly‐​protected sectors” and foreign retaliation “by contrast had clear negative employment impacts, particularly in agriculture.”

[Just Joe]

High tool prices just leads people to do things they shouldn't like buying tools and then returning them once the repair is complete.

Many parts stores do this, by design: You buy one-off kits for esoteric repair jobs, and get a full refund when you return them in good condition.  This is common for ball joint tools, fan wrenches, and probably a range of other things I've not had to deal with.

I'm familiar with this and have rented/borrowed tools from auto parts stores many times. The someone from my tool returning anecdote was someone buying and returning ordinary tools not found in the auto parts store lending library. Those auto parts store libraries here don't usually lend screwdrivers, hammers and wrenches. Only "advanced" tools too expensive for the average weekend shadetree mechanic to buy.

Libraries lending tools are not a thing here. Our library is very good but they lend recorded media and books. No tools.

Many "buy American first" efforts impact people at the bottom first. I'm not so removed from starting out - at the bottom - to have forgotten what is like to have a $50 problem and $20 to deal with it in order to keep driving to my job. I borrowed tools from family and friends. Made due. Improvised. I asked for guidance, I studied free library books for answers pre-internet, etc. I remember removing an incorrectly installed distributor drive from a VW engine with a #2 pencil that was still blunt from the package. It fit better than any other tool I could find or imagine. It also fit my budget. 

I don't have any affection for the Chinese gov't but it seems hypocritical to have spent the past 50 years here in the USA buying Chinese everything in all the big box retailers only to suddenly in late 2024 decide overnight that Chinese made products are suddenly made out of kryptonite. Seems like a bandwagon topic of the week. I'll continue to buy what I need and if that happens to be made in China then so be it. I suspect that at the retailers in my part of the USA, my choices will continue to be overwhelmingly from China as usual. If the retailers want to change to domestic suppliers then we'll see what happens next. I suspect my Trump voting neighbors and coworkers will cry uncle first when they see how much more expensive their new choices are. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.

[sonofsven]

Speaking of "Buy American!"; I had a good friend and fellow mountain biker in the 90's that decided to build a high end bike with only *made in the USA* parts.
It didn't shift well, or stop well (no Shimano).

[zolotiyeruki]

Congratulating and expecting some sort of an response of acceptance from someone who's politician won seems odd to me.  Maybe that's what you're experiencing or maybe I'm the only one who feels that way?

I agree with this. If someone knew how I voted (they don’t and won’t) and my vote went to the winner, it would feel super weird to get some congratulations. Similar if someone offered condolences if I went with the loser.

My friends who voted for Trump—mostly a bit reluctantly—are fine now and I don’t get anger or upsetment. Mostly they’re just hoping things turn out OK like I do.

This has been my experience, albeit not quite as moderately--I know a lot of people held their nose to vote for Trump, but also a fair number are totally on board the MAGA train, and a bunch of others voted third party because they don't live in a swing state and didn't like either Harris or Trump.  But I've found that most conservatives (and most people in general) are just hoping for an improvement over what they've experienced the last four years.  The most ardent supporters and vitriolic views grab the headlines, but aren't necessarily representative of the population.

I think HPstache hit it on the head.  Just because the candidate that Person A voted for got elected, it isn't a personal victory for Person A, worthy of congratulations.  Now, if Person A had actively worked on the campaign, then sure!  Absent that, I can see how the (well-meaning) congratulations can come across wrong, as in "congrats, now the country is going to be ruined."

[Phenix]

High tool prices just leads people to do things they shouldn't like buying tools and then returning them once the repair is complete.

Many parts stores do this, by design: You buy one-off kits for esoteric repair jobs, and get a full refund when you return them in good condition.  This is common for ball joint tools, fan wrenches, and probably a range of other things I've not had to deal with.

I'm familiar with this and have rented/borrowed tools from auto parts stores many times. The someone from my tool returning anecdote was someone buying and returning ordinary tools not found in the auto parts store lending library. Those auto parts store libraries here don't usually lend screwdrivers, hammers and wrenches. Only "advanced" tools too expensive for the average weekend shadetree mechanic to buy.

Libraries lending tools are not a thing here. Our library is very good but they lend recorded media and books. No tools.

Many "buy American first" efforts impact people at the bottom first. I'm not so removed from starting out - at the bottom - to have forgotten what is like to have a $50 problem and $20 to deal with it in order to keep driving to my job. I borrowed tools from family and friends. Made due. Improvised. I asked for guidance, I studied free library books for answers pre-internet, etc. I remember removing an incorrectly installed distributor drive from a VW engine with a #2 pencil that was still blunt from the package. It fit better than any other tool I could find or imagine. It also fit my budget. 

I don't have any affection for the Chinese gov't but it seems hypocritical to have spent the past 50 years here in the USA buying Chinese everything in all the big box retailers only to suddenly in late 2024 decide overnight that Chinese made products are suddenly made out of kryptonite. Seems like a bandwagon topic of the week. I'll continue to buy what I need and if that happens to be made in China then so be it. I suspect that at the retailers in my part of the USA, my choices will continue to be overwhelmingly from China as usual. If the retailers want to change to domestic suppliers then we'll see what happens next. I suspect my Trump voting neighbors and coworkers will cry uncle first when they see how much more expensive their new choices are. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.

My conservative family members have been actively avoiding Chinese products for two decades. This is not an "overnight" development or bandwagon topic. The biggest difference between today and 50 years ago is how close a communist economic superpower is to gaining military superiority over the United States and its allies. If you could sit through one top secret intel brief, your stance on supporting the Chinese economy might start to soften.