Author Topic: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?  (Read 95400 times)

Freckles

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4972
  • Age: 2019
  • Location: West Coast, USA
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2013, 02:01:34 AM »
I'm 22, so far from needing to decide anytime soon... but whether to have kids or not has been on my mind for a long time. On the one hand I really want to have them and have wanted them since I was about 16. I'm not sure I trust that feeling though. I still have mixed feelings about my own upbringing this makes me harbor doubts about the nature of my desire for children. What if I only want them to fill a void? What if I later decide I hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress they provide? My partner would rather not have them for that reason but every time I care for  kids I think I could do this its not so bad but I haven't been doing it day and night for years so I can't say really tell if it's ok in the long run.
I'm not really sure what we'll end up doing when we can afford to have them.

I very much doubt that you would decide you hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress your kids provide if you had them.  I mean, sure, it's not always fun but honestly, it's mostly fun.  That whole love thing just overrides the difficult parts. If you like taking care of others' kids even a little, you'll be happy with your own.  It's different with your own, better, because of LOVE.  Most of us are pretty well programmed to love our children. 

I'm only saying these thing because I had the same kinds of thoughts before having kids and then when I had my first baby it was just like, oh, wow, now  I see.  That hard shit I used to worry about doesn't matter because I've got this amazing little being that I love more than I knew I was even capable of loving.  The feelings, they are big.  Awesome big.  And wonderful.  You don't mind the responsibility when it's your own kids- you cherish it.  It becomes a privilege rather than a burden.  Truly.

Vitai Slade

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
  • Age: 34
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2013, 02:05:49 AM »
24, no kids, don't want them. Haven't wanted them since I can remember, don't think it will ever change. People keep telling me it will, but they said I'd miss school too and not a fleeting moment goes by where I do. My future dogs will be my kids.

On another note, I too am really surprised by how many people here DON'T want kids. I thought it was an extremely rare thing to not want them. Maybe society is programmed to want kids... and with those of us that are "unplugged" from the drone life everyone else is living (and make our own choices), the numbers are skewed.

ace1224

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2013, 05:56:10 AM »
I'm 22, so far from needing to decide anytime soon... but whether to have kids or not has been on my mind for a long time. On the one hand I really want to have them and have wanted them since I was about 16. I'm not sure I trust that feeling though. I still have mixed feelings about my own upbringing this makes me harbor doubts about the nature of my desire for children. What if I only want them to fill a void? What if I later decide I hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress they provide? My partner would rather not have them for that reason but every time I care for  kids I think I could do this its not so bad but I haven't been doing it day and night for years so I can't say really tell if it's ok in the long run.
I'm not really sure what we'll end up doing when we can afford to have them.

I very much doubt that you would decide you hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress your kids provide if you had them.  I mean, sure, it's not always fun but honestly, it's mostly fun.  That whole love thing just overrides the difficult parts. If you like taking care of others' kids even a little, you'll be happy with your own.  It's different with your own, better, because of LOVE.  Most of us are pretty well programmed to love our children. 

I'm only saying these thing because I had the same kinds of thoughts before having kids and then when I had my first baby it was just like, oh, wow, now  I see.  That hard shit I used to worry about doesn't matter because I've got this amazing little being that I love more than I knew I was even capable of loving.  The feelings, they are big.  Awesome big.  And wonderful.  You don't mind the responsibility when it's your own kids- you cherish it.  It becomes a privilege rather than a burden.  Truly.
not to negate what you are saying because i know that most people feel that way after they have children, but i just wanted to put the point of view out there of someone who didn't quite feel that way after a kid.
i don't cherish the responsibility of having a child, i have accepted it.  i do love my kid, but like i said before i dislike being a parent and chose not to have more kids after that.  i never had and probably never will have those "oh wow" feelings.  i know most people do, but i feel like everyone always says that "once you have your own it will be fine" and no one ever wants to talk about what if it isn't your wildest dreams come true.  there is a huge stigma for people who wish they hadn't had kids.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything because everyone's journey is their own, and everyone will feel what they feel.  but having a kid is not a 100% guarantee the squishy love love heart bursting will commence and you will suddenly love parenting.

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2013, 08:58:43 AM »
I very much doubt that you would decide you hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress your kids provide if you had them.

Doubt all you want, here is the perspective of a 47 year old with a 25 year old and an 18 year old.  The 25 year old is doing great but the 18 year old has had a lousy past few years and has put his entire family through the ringer.  I have no idea how he will ultimately turn out but I am optimistic things will get better.  But they could get worse, significantly worse.

I cannot tell you how many sleepless nights I've had in the past two years where I hated the responsibility and stress our little bundle of joy dumped on us.  They ain't always sunshine and rainbows....

hoodedfalcon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Deep and Dirty
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2013, 09:09:04 AM »
not to negate what you are saying because i know that most people feel that way after they have children, but i just wanted to put the point of view out there of someone who didn't quite feel that way after a kid.
i don't cherish the responsibility of having a child, i have accepted it.  i do love my kid, but like i said before i dislike being a parent and chose not to have more kids after that.  i never had and probably never will have those "oh wow" feelings.  i know most people do, but i feel like everyone always says that "once you have your own it will be fine" and no one ever wants to talk about what if it isn't your wildest dreams come true.  there is a huge stigma for people who wish they hadn't had kids.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything because everyone's journey is their own, and everyone will feel what they feel.  but having a kid is not a 100% guarantee the squishy love love heart bursting will commence and you will suddenly love parenting.

ace1224- Thank you for putting this out there. I don't think this is as unusual an experience as folks are led to believe. I don't have kids, and I don't plan on having them because I am almost certain this is how I would feel in the long run. I could be wrong, but that seems like an awfully big risk to take.

KulshanGirl

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 459
  • Location: Washington State
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2013, 09:50:11 AM »
Up until the age of 38 I was in the no-kids, not gonna have any camp.  Then my clock bonged but good.  And I had one.

I think that everyone has their own experiences, from lovey dovey to regret.  For me, it was much closer to the lovey dovey end.  What it was, was that when my daughter was born, I was also born in that instant.  A mom was born, and it was just as wrenching and jarring as actual birth.  I was prepared for things to change, but I was not prepared for that.  It's like having the world picked up, rotated 90 degrees, and plunked back down hard.  Everything is the same, but nothing at all is.

Now I'm a single mom and good grief, do I have my days where I wonder what the heck I'm doing. :)  It is as tough as anything I've ever done - tougher.  But I get to go to childrens museums and ride merry-go-rounds and attend goofy little ballet classes and spend days coloring and making messes and laughing my ASS off.  I get to be proud like no one but a parent gets to be.  I think that feeling probably surpasses every single other feeling that I've had in life so far. 

On the flip side, I arrived at my business-dress work today with a footprint on one pantleg and a dried boog on the other.  So ... there you go.

totoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2190
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2013, 09:55:36 AM »
Kids can create a lot of stress.  They can come with significant mental or physical health problems.  I can understand choosing not to have kids.

It is interesting though because what would be considered to be work or sacrifice from an outsider's perspective does not feel like it to me with my kids.  It feels like a privilege - even the hard stuff like health issues or teenage angsty behaviours.  I don't ever wish that I hadn't had kids despite the fact that there are challenging times and may be more in the future.

I wonder how much genetics plays into parenting.

Carrie

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 602
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2013, 10:17:59 AM »
I was not wanting kids for the first 10 years of marriage.  One day we just up and changed our mind (seriously, it was a two sentence conversation).  I got pregnant three months later.  When we decided to try for the second, we went through hell and decided after 5 losses to only have the one.  I was devastated for a while, but finally got over it.  (subsequently got pregnant when we weren't trying, so we finally got our #2)

Looking back, we probably would have been great and happy without children, but I am glad we have them.  I love their personalities and how smart they are.  I really dislike other peoples kids, and so for the longest time I thought I wouldn't be a good mom.  But, turns out, I'm an awesome mom.  :)  There are many, many days that are trying; I sometimes lose my temper; I miss my alone times with my DH; I miss sleeping all night.  The good times make up for the annoying times. Eventually they'll be pretty self sufficient and I can get sleep again, be with DH as much as I want and then I'll probably miss the little buggers.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:19:54 AM by Carrie »

Insanity

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2013, 10:21:16 AM »
I will be 39.  We have two kids.  one will be 4 and the other is less than a year.

I will say this - I wanted them.  I wanted them slightly sooner than we had them (medical emergency pushed them off about 2 years).  I didn't want them earlier in life, but I regret not having them earlier in life as the energy level just isn't there anymore.   Dealing with the middle of the night waking up (even when SAHM mom gets up with them during the week, sleep is still disrupted).

As far as those who compare having kids to eating peanut butter -- the difference is you can have peanut butter and know you don't like it.  You can't be with someone else's kid a few hours and know you don't want one of your own.  It doesn't work that way.  I, honestly, did not like other people's kids.  I love my own.  It has made me more comfortable with other people's kids. 

That isn't to be condescending.  But, and you can try to be all scientific about as you want, the bond you have with your kids isn't something that can be mimicked.   There simply is no way to know how you'll feel about your kids until you have them.  Again, don't get me wrong, if you do not want to have them that is perfectly acceptable.  I'm not putting those types down.

limeandpepper

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4569
  • Location: Australasia
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »
Don't have kids, not sure if I want them. Sometimes I think it would be nice, other times not so much. I don't think I'm passionate enough about it so probably the safest thing is to not have them. If things turn out less than ideal, someone who truly loves having kids will able to deal with so much more than someone who is ambivalent. I mean, if I have a perfectly healthy, perfectly well-behaved child, then great, but even then, I don't know if I will absolutely adore being a parent - even with this ideal scenario! And the further away from the ideal scenario it gets, the more I will seriously struggle, and you just don't always get to choose the cards you're dealt.

Thank you to those of you (ace, hybrid) who provide a balanced perspective on the other side of parenthood. Society has made it almost unacceptable to say that it IS possible to regret parenthood, and I think it is dangerous to encourage people to jump in regardless of their doubts just because "it'll be different once you have them, love conquers all!" etc. Maybe that holds true for many people, but not all. If someone isn't completely enamoured with the idea, "Try it because you MIGHT like it because MOST people do" is not really a good enough reason to have kids, as far as I'm concerned. And then, if someone turns out to be one of those who're just not big on it, they are often ostracized for feeling differently and have to keep quiet or anonymous about it, which sucks.

I see having kids as probably the biggest decision in life and I wish I wasn't indecisive, and could just clearly be for or against it. However, at the end of the day, I would rather regret not having children than regret having children.

This thread is interesting:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feeling_depressed/1146040--deep-breath-I-regret-having-children/AllOnOnePage

Many people say it's crappy at first and then it's lovely, but there are also some who never get to the "no regrets" stage and have just come to accept things as they are. Several are looking forward to their children growing up and leaving home, others already have gotten to that stage and are enjoying it.

Inevitable

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2013, 11:15:31 AM »
My wife wanted to have a kid, so there's one on the way.  There will only ever be one though :-P

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
My wife wanted to have a kid, so there's one on the way.  There will only ever be one though :-P

You're having a Highlander?

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »
I see having kids as probably the biggest decision in life and I wish I wasn't indecisive, and could just clearly be for or against it. However, at the end of the day, I would rather regret not having children than regret having children.

This thread is interesting:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feeling_depressed/1146040--deep-breath-I-regret-having-children/AllOnOnePage

Many people say it's crappy at first and then it's lovely, but there are also some who never get to the "no regrets" stage and have just come to accept things as they are. Several are looking forward to their children growing up and leaving home, others already have gotten to that stage and are enjoying it.

Not only is it highly stigmatized in our society to say that one doesn't want children, it is also stigmatized to admit that you are drowning under the weight of it all when you have become a parent.  I didn't plan to give birth 11 months into our marriage at the young age of 23, but it happened.  I did plan on becoming a mother at some point, but a little later in life.  I am very happy to have my children.  I love them so much and mothering has become my greatest passion, but there are tough times in parenthood and it should be okay for people to say so.  One reason I am discovering more and more as to why online forums are good: it's great to have a means for expressing what society says you shouldn't and be able to receive support. 

A movie recommendation: The most honest movie I have ever seen on the subject of pregnancy and the first year of a baby's life (how it affects a woman and also a couple's relationship) is a French film called A Happy Event. http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/A_Happy_Event/70208818  I cried several times while watching it. It came out about a decade after my first baby was born but I still related so much with the story.

There's no way I would hold judgment against someone who chose not to have children.  That's a big decision to make.  More often than I should, I see people who have chosen to become parents and treat their kids like crap.  (I can't tell you how much that burns me!)  Those are the people I judge.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2013, 12:58:45 PM »
Not only is it highly stigmatized in our society to say that one doesn't want children
We must live in very different societies.

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2013, 01:05:27 PM »
Not only is it highly stigmatized in our society to say that one doesn't want children
We must live in very different societies.

Maybe.  I've never lived in an urban area, only rural and suburban.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2013, 01:07:18 PM »
I agree that there's a stigma against admitting parenting is difficult (and especially against doubting whether you should have had kids), but I don't see anyone criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2013, 01:25:58 PM »
I agree that there's a stigma against admitting parenting is difficult (and especially against doubting whether you should have had kids), but I don't see anyone criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

I have heard several people say that they think those who choose not to have kids are selfish.  Sad but true.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2013, 01:48:45 PM »
I agree that there's a stigma against admitting parenting is difficult (and especially against doubting whether you should have had kids), but I don't see anyone criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

I have heard several people say that they think those who choose not to have kids are selfish.  Sad but true.
I see things online where us voluntary non-parents are called selfish for our choices but what I get most is just people being absolutely baffled by our desire to not have any. I think too many people just view it as something that everyone does. The logical steps in their minds are dating-marriage-kids and if you decide to not get married or have kids once you've been in a long-term relationship they don't understand it.

And of course there's lots of family pressure for kids. Both sets of our parents would love for us to provide grandkids and our siblings that would love to be aunts/uncles (between us we have 9 siblings but only 2 have kids and only 1 has been able to keep custody of their's). Luckily for us they are all pretty understanding of our choice (and since we moved 3 states over they wouldn't see them much anyway :P ) but there are constant jabs coming from someone about when we're going to pop one out *sigh*

I don't personally find "selfish" to be a bad trait....   I don't have kids for selfish reasons.... And if I did have kids, it would be for selfish reasons as well.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2013, 02:12:33 PM »
  I do not like the idea of raising children alone.  So when I did not find a mate didn't.  Doubt I will now as I am to old to keep up with an infants supervision needs.  No idea if I would adopt older children in the future.
  As a man there has never been any real stigma for being single.  But know women my age who have dealt with that stigma. 
  I wonder if this group just examines all customs that several here can admit to not wanting them.  As one person posted, college - marriage - children - car - house -spend - spend - spend.

jrs

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Location: Henderson, NV
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2013, 04:00:23 PM »
I'd love kids (one or two). 
But for right now, I'm content being single.

EMP

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2013, 04:20:32 PM »
Not only is it highly stigmatized in our society to say that one doesn't want children
We must live in very different societies.

Society is very different for 30ish women v. 20ish men. 

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2013, 04:22:41 PM »
Would you like to provide examples of how it's highly stigmatized?

citrine

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2013, 04:39:28 PM »
I never wanted kids growing up, but the biological clock started giving me some trouble when I turned 30.  Thank God I married a man who has a vasectomy and comes with two sons who I can love as my own!  The joy of teenagers without the work of raising them ;)
We also have two cats who are the perpetual babies of our family.  I watch my friends juggling kids, jobs, debt, and life...they have no time to enjoy anything as they are running around like chickens! 

Fletch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Location: DC
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2013, 06:19:15 PM »
Would you like to provide examples of how it's highly stigmatized?

It's stigmatized for women that it is somehow unnatural to not want children, that you are selfish, unfeminine, incomplete and uncaring if you say you don't want or like children. Much like with money, it is going against the grain in a way that challenges peoples beliefs, choices, and assumptions, and people get nasty when they feel their choices being questioned. It is particularly bad with older family members, who like to dismiss your opinions as something you'll grow out of.

There is a lot of animosity between child-free women and breeder women as well. The breeders want very generous maternity leave and flexible time arrangements, but then the child-free people feel dumped on finishing the work of the people who clock out at 5:00, and they aren't given the same scheduling options. And every time someone raises a stink about maternity leave or some other mommy issue, it feels like that is all employers see when they are looking at future young women's  resumes.

So it feels like you can't win:called selfish by society, passed over by employers as just a ticking biological bomb. Stigmatized for both your actual beliefs and your assumed beliefs in different situations.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/15/why-the-u-s-has-fewer-women-working-than-europe-does/
Quote
So, the authors conclude, there's a trade-off. Generous leave policies promote women's continued participation in the labor force, but they also are associated with gender inequity within organizations.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 06:23:49 PM by Fletch »

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2013, 06:29:46 PM »
You didn't provide any examples, and neither of your links is about the stigma against women who don't want children.

Fletch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Location: DC
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2013, 06:36:42 PM »
My examples are all anecdotal, the "selfish, unnatural, uncaring, and incomplete" are taken verbatim from responses I have received when I talk about this. I understand you may not have experienced this, but that does not change the fact that other people experience this.

The links were for the stigma from what people imagine should be given to women.

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2013, 06:47:12 PM »
Wanted a bunch of kids, can't have any. Having to figure out what my life should be like with something like that not being part of the equation now.

Sorry to hear it. If you want to discuss feel free to PM me (or discuss on thread if you want). I know a lot about all that.

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2013, 06:51:25 PM »
For years I didnt want them, then I kind of did, then i really did but with reservations. Not over the moon at the idea of babies, I prefer kids once they're in primary school (I have 4 younger siblings and did more than my share of babysitting neighbourhood kids too) but would regret not trying. And DH is keen on the idea of kids, so we're trying during the limited amt of time I've got left.

So, for us, if we manage to have a kid in the next year, ok. If not, we'd happily adopt an older kid in a few years.

I have friends who were saying the same thing, so let me give you the same info I gave them: if you want to adopt in a few years, start soon, because it takes years and you can "age out"--in other words, different countries have different rules for how old you can be and still be able to adopt. Friends of mine in Germany tell me that you can't adopt in Germany unless both members of the couple are under 40! I think that's outrageous, but whatever, that's the law so they have to plan for it. And then of course, if you're adopting from another country, that other country will almost certainly have rules on the maximum age too.

Financial Threedom

  • Guest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2013, 07:23:25 PM »

I'm 36 wife is 37.  We recently had our first.  I have never wanted kids and my wife was always on the fence. 

Friends and family would always say "You'll change your mind, you'll be a great dad, etc..." That never did anything to change my mind.  In fact , those comments always seemed to be a bit intrusive to us.  I guess that would be a whole other topic. 

Having kids is one of those decisions in life where if you aren't 100% I want kids, you should probably not have kids.  I'm not saying I don't love my kid, I do love my child just to be perfectly clear, but being a parent has been extremely time consuming (even more so than I thought it would be) and very difficult for me at times, mostly due to the loss of freedom.   

Just some thoughts from a new parent who has never wanted kids. 

impaire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 240
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2013, 08:08:15 PM »
Would you like to provide examples of how it's highly stigmatized?
I wouldn't call it "highly stigmatized" myself, but I can give you examples of social pressure (all things that happened to me or in my presence):
1) one of my bosses (woman) told someone in our team "Well, you cannot understand it until you have children. A woman never really becomes complete until she has children." The topic had nothing to do with children.
2) A good friend asked me for justifications when finding out that I didn't want to have children, because she could not understand how I could be so selfish. Another laughed at me and said "wow, that is really super-weird."
3) A coworker mentioned that my career was going to slow down because I was hitting prime reproductive years (that was 8 years ago, at 28). When I said "well, that's discriminatory... And I don't want children, so I will not suffer from repeated career breaks", he replied "wow, don't let anyone know you don't want children. That's such a bizarre thing, and you don't want people thinking of you as a weirdo."
4) Every other year, my mother and I have to have a heart-to-heart, because she is convinced that I am going to deeply regret my choice and she is terrified of it for me.
5) A NYC gyno refused me an IUD because "it could make me infertile." This is pretty inaccurate, but I simply countered that I didn't want children anyway. He still refused me treatment, because he felt it was "an inappropriate choice for a woman your age to think she is making this kind of decision." I was 31.
6) A (conservative Catholic) cousin refuses to consider my marriage "valid" because the intention to have children is not at the heart of it.

Now, all these things come from different places in terms of intention, intelligence, and appropriateness, and I don't care that much about any of them (well, except that I am sad to make my mother worry). But they are all examples of social pressure to conform to a model to which many cannot or do not want to conform.

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2013, 08:35:34 PM »
Maybe I was too extreme in saying "highly".  I am sorry if my wording choice caused the conversation to get a little too heated.

pachnik

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1897
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2013, 08:37:05 PM »
I posted up-thread about having no kids and that I knew that I wouldn't have been a good parent. 

Few of my close friends have kids either so I never got any flack from them.  In fact, when my then-husband and I split up about 10 years ago, my best friend told me she was grateful that he and I didn't have any children because I wouldn't have made a good single parent and he (ex-husband) would have made my life miserable in a joint parenting situation. 

My parents asked me once if my health was okay and I told them I was healthy but just not interested in being a parent.  When my ex-husband and I split up I was in my late 30's and my parents told me that if I wanted to have a baby as a single parent, they would help me financially.  I said thanks but no thanks.  I think that was really sweet of them.  They have never said anything about it since.  I guess now they know that I will have lots of time to take care of them when they get older.  :)

Work-wise, I don't believe I have been that affected.   I am actually all for longer mat leaves/parental leaves.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:32:54 PM by pachnik »

Eristheunorganized

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2013, 08:43:16 PM »
The stigma exists. I don't want to get married or have kids, and it's terrible.

"How are you gonna introduce him? Your partner?" "That's stupid, he should be your husband"

"You'll feel different about your own (kids)." Implication: you're going to have kids, everyone does.

Etc. Like much of sexism, it is so integrated it's completely acceptable to say these things and no one notices anything odd.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2013, 08:51:01 PM »
Maybe I was too extreme in saying "highly".  I am sorry if my wording choice caused the conversation to get a little too heated.
I'm splitting hairs a bit, too. I agree that there are strange reactions sometimes, it was just hard to imagine that it was to the extent of 'highly stigmatized'.

ichangedmyname

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
    • Luxe Frugality
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2013, 09:23:10 PM »
32, no kids, no plans to have any. DH and I like being childfree but aren't militantly anti-kid. I like my little cousins and friends' kids, but they are a lot of work.
I also prefer to call it "childfree" than "childless".

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2013, 09:26:28 PM »
Would you like to provide examples of how it's highly stigmatized?

I'll provide one - abortion.  For those who do not want a child and find themselves to be several weeks pregnant anyway, choosing to terminate the pregnancy is very highly stigmatized by a very a large swath of the population.  Up to and including making it difficult or impossible to do legislatively.

Personally speaking, if a person is completely against having a child I feel they are doing everyone, themselves, the unwanted pregnancy, society, a big favor when they terminate.   Children should be blessings, not burdens.  Now, try carrying that conversation over a dinner party and see how far that takes you....  I guarantee you a lot of people of faith will read this post and think "Wow, what a douchebag THAT guy is....".  So there you go.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2013, 09:28:04 PM »
I think they're mad because they consider it murder, not because they're so offended that some women don't want children.

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2013, 09:36:03 PM »
I think they're mad because they consider it murder, not because they're so offended that some women don't want children.

It's both Grant.  How could you not want your gift from God????

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2013, 09:40:57 PM »
I suppose you can interpret the caricature in your head any way you want to...

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2013, 09:49:58 PM »
I suppose you can interpret the caricature in your head any way you want to...

I suppose you have no clue what's in my head.  Stick to what you do know please.

So here's a second example - Mormons.  Some of my best friends were Mormons growing up, I spent a lot of time at their church, and some of my in-laws are Mormons.  Great folks.  I'm not one, but I have all the respect in the world for them.  Having said all that,  the expectation among Mormons is to have as many kids as you can comfortably accommodate (and that expectation is not zero).  Not having kids brings raised eyebrows in Mormon society.

And if I were to have the aforementioned conversation with the Mormons I do know, I can assure you I need no caricatures.

Now do you still want to argue this, or are you willing to cede the point? 

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2013, 09:52:38 PM »
I'm not clear on how having a Mormon friend once qualifies you as an expert on why people are offended by abortion.

Freckles

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4972
  • Age: 2019
  • Location: West Coast, USA
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2013, 12:37:39 AM »

not to negate what you are saying because i know that most people feel that way after they have children, but i just wanted to put the point of view out there of someone who didn't quite feel that way after a kid.
i don't cherish the responsibility of having a child, i have accepted it.  i do love my kid, but like i said before i dislike being a parent and chose not to have more kids after that.  i never had and probably never will have those "oh wow" feelings.  i know most people do, but i feel like everyone always says that "once you have your own it will be fine" and no one ever wants to talk about what if it isn't your wildest dreams come true.  there is a huge stigma for people who wish they hadn't had kids.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of anything because everyone's journey is their own, and everyone will feel what they feel.  but having a kid is not a 100% guarantee the squishy love love heart bursting will commence and you will suddenly love parenting.

That's fair.  I don't expect that everyone will have the same experience.  I just said what I said to killingxspree based on my experience and based on what I got from killingxspree's post- has wanted children, previously planned to have them, does like others' children, but has some fears and doubts.  I had similar fears so I thought I might share how it turned out for me. 

I feel kind of sad reading through the comments that lots of people feel that those of us who are gaga for babies think you're a wierdo if you're not.  Having kids was right for me but that doesn't mean I think parenting is right for everyone and that everyone should do it.  I think people who don't want to be parents shouldn't be parents, and I think it's excellent if they know that about themselves and plan accordingly.  It's not a commitment to take lightly, for sure.

Freckles

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4972
  • Age: 2019
  • Location: West Coast, USA
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2013, 12:46:17 AM »
I very much doubt that you would decide you hate the inconvenience, responsibility and stress your kids provide if you had them.

Doubt all you want, here is the perspective of a 47 year old with a 25 year old and an 18 year old.  The 25 year old is doing great but the 18 year old has had a lousy past few years and has put his entire family through the ringer.  I have no idea how he will ultimately turn out but I am optimistic things will get better.  But they could get worse, significantly worse.

I cannot tell you how many sleepless nights I've had in the past two years where I hated the responsibility and stress our little bundle of joy dumped on us.  They ain't always sunshine and rainbows....

That's tough, hybrid.  I hope for the best for your family.  My oldest is six, so yeah, it's kind of all sunshine and rainbows still.  I'll hold on tight for those teenage years...

But on the other hand, none of us know how anything is going to turn out.  My sunshine and rainbows could end tomorrow.  Death, illness, impairment, god knows what.  It's risky to love, it's risky to be a parent, it's risky to be alive.  You know?  Being a parent is so weird.  It make me feel simultaneously super strong and super vulnerable.  Even though it's a common state of being worldwide and throughout time, it's an existence of extremes.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 06:36:38 AM by Freckles »

unitsinc

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 188
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Houston/Denver
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2013, 01:51:49 AM »
28 with no kids and had a vasectomy a week ago.

expatartist

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2270
  • Location: Hong Kong/Paris
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2013, 03:41:41 AM »
Daleth, thanks for the reminder re. Age requirements for adoption. In our current situation no sane agency would allow us to apply (though come to think of it we might be eligible to adopt here in china because we live here and speak some Chinese) because our living situation is so unstable - we have a big move coming up next year, from china to the uk via another country (complicated visa situation). We'd want to start the process after settling in the uk.

Thanks to all of you who have been so candid re. The difficulties of raising children, and even regrets. My biggest fears relate to the toll it'd take on our relationship.

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2013, 05:49:28 AM »
I'm not clear on how having a Mormon friend once qualifies you as an expert on why people are offended by abortion.

And you are?

You asked for examples, and when they are provided you shoot them down.  In this case my understanding of Mormon culture - much more than "having a Mormon friend once" -  hasn't met your arbitrary bar to qualify as valid in your eyes.  I suspect that, as is so often the case in these forums, you simply want to be in debate class and argue from a point of view.  It often seems that rather than trying to gain an understanding for someone else's point of view you simply want to be on a winning side.  Well, this debate's over, so have a good day. 

rubybeth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
  • Location: Midwest
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #96 on: October 03, 2013, 06:59:04 AM »
I would agree there's a stigma (which is defined as "a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person") for women who decide not to have children, and it's been there pretty much since the dawn of time. You used to have remain single in order to not have kids. What are single older men called? Bachelors. Single older women? Old maids. Men without wives and children are viewed as happy-go-lucky, free, etc. while women without husband and kids are viewed as lonely, barren, and sometimes heartless.

As an aside, I've been watching "Call the Midwife" on Netflix, and it makes me very thankful to have been born  in the 1980s instead of the 1930s. Just 50 years earlier, and I'd have probably elected to become a nun instead of get married.

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2013, 07:11:25 AM »
Daleth, thanks for the reminder re. Age requirements for adoption. In our current situation no sane agency would allow us to apply (though come to think of it we might be eligible to adopt here in china because we live here and speak some Chinese) because our living situation is so unstable - we have a big move coming up next year, from china to the uk via another country (complicated visa situation). We'd want to start the process after settling in the uk.

Thanks to all of you who have been so candid re. The difficulties of raising children, and even regrets. My biggest fears relate to the toll it'd take on our relationship.

You're welcome. Here's some info on adopting in the UK. Apparently you have to live there for a year before you can start the process.
https://www.gov.uk/child-adoption/overview
The UK apparently has no upper age limit, at least legally (though age may factor in when you're seeking approval--for instance if it's between you and a younger couple the younger couple may be picked instead). However, I've heard from other sources that it is virtually impossible to adopt domestically in the UK, so count on having to adopt overseas if you live there. And every foreign country I've ever heard of that permits its children to be adopted abroad does have an age requirement... except perhaps the US; I don't know if we have one but we do permit kids to be adopted abroad, to Europe at least:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/world/international-adoption-us-children-adopted-abroad/index.html

Elaine

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Age: 37
  • Location: NYC
    • Small Things Good
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2013, 07:48:20 AM »
Yes, men often argue that there is no stigma attached to not having kids, I think because they don't experience it themselves. If you're a woman, there definitely is. I've lived in rural, suburban, AND urban areas all over the country. I rarely bring up my desire not to have kids but it is often pushed out of me "When will you have kids?", etc. I don't like to lie so I just simply say, "Oh neither one of us wants any." I don't preach or tear down parenthood but I am still often met with horrible response. One lady I work with actually started shouting at me that I was devaluing HER decision to have kids. I've had them respond that I will never understand how to love another person, that I am selfish, that I am missing out on a huge part of life. I have had them asked if I was sexually abused as a child, I've had them say that I will NEVER BE A REAL WOMAN if I don't have kids. I've heard that it's a woman's DUTY to have kids. Relatives refuse to even believe me and continue to say "when you have kids", which is kind of the equivalent of telling a gay person who comes out to you, "it's just a phase". Some people have said, "your mom must be heartbroken", even though I have a 34 year old brother who has no kids (he is never asked about it, I'm only 26). I've had women say, "I can't understand what happened to you to make you hate children", the list honestly goes on and on and on. Most women will tell you this, maybe not all, but most. 
Is it something that keeps me up at night tossing and turning? No. I realize that their violent reactions come from a place of insecurity and often unhappiness at their own life decisions. I've always been comfortable bucking the "in the box" way of life, it was harder when I was younger actually. But it definitely is an issue if you are female in this society.

Zaga

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2903
  • Age: 44
  • Location: North of Pittsburgh, PA
    • A Wall of Hats
Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2013, 08:08:35 AM »
This is a very interesting discussion.  I have no kids and no plans for kids, but virtually nobody I've ever told that has made even a slightly negative comment.  Maybe I live in an area of the country that doesn't care if I have kids?  Maybe the people I spend time around, mostly highly educated scientists, fully understand me wanting to be childfree?    Maybe it's that I generally anwser that I have 17 neices and nephews so people figure my parents have plenty of grandkids (they do not, they only have 1, all the rest are on my husband's side)?  Maybe I am just really good at ignoring people's negative reactions?  Maybe people see that I love kids, but don't want to raise them?  Maybe the fact that I look like I'm in my early 20's even though I'm in my mid 30's gives me a pass?

Either way, I do know that this stigma exists, but it has almost entirely failed to be pointed in my direction up to this point, for which I'm quite grateful.