Author Topic: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?  (Read 95295 times)

Freckles

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #300 on: February 12, 2014, 05:01:35 PM »
Well that's an interesting deduction you've made, smalllife.  My husband and I didn't have kids so we could get grandkids.  There was no means-to-an-end thought process.  We just wanted kids.  And I mostly look forward to having grandkids someday because I love my kids so much.  It's more of them, in a way, and there's nothing I love more than them.  It's um, thoughtful of you to offer me some advice for enjoying babies with an Adopt a Grandparent program, but no.  Someone else's grandkids are not what I pine for.  I don't really expect you to understand, but maybe marz1982 can at least see part of why her mom and her husband's mom would be hoping for grandbabies.  I have this feeling you will take that statement the wrong way so I'll just go ahead and so am in no way trying to make marz1982 (or anyone) change their minds if they've decided not to have children.  I think only people who want children should have them.

It can be done.  To want something and but not make a person feel pressured.  I know this because my mother did this.  She wanted grandkids for a long, long time.  She had me at 20 and then I didn't have my first until 35, so that's a while.  There's no one who loved kids more.  She loved them so much she did her best to save them, spending her life working in child welfare.  Still, she never pressured.  I knew she loved children, I knew she wanted to be a grandma some day.  You couldn't know her and not know these things.  But she never pressured or guilt tripped or asked leading questions.  She just let me live my life.  There's no way my kids could know me and not know that I look forward to being a grandparent.  They know I love babies, they know I love children.  I've spent my life working with children; it's kind of obvious to even those who don't know me well.  I can't hide who I am and I won't.  But that doesn't mean I will pressure them. 

And I never for a moment thought my mother didn't love me until I was finally pregnant at 34.  I don't think I'll need to tell my kids I'll love them anyway.  I could be sad for no grandchildren and wished my kids felt differently about the matter, without it affecting my love for them.  The two things aren't really even related.  ???
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:13:19 PM by Freckles »

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #301 on: February 13, 2014, 09:43:34 AM »
@Freckles: they might not be related for you or your mother, but they are definitely related for some people.  Some women have kids because it's expected and want grandchildren so their children can suffer as they did - if the child decides they don't want kids the mother takes offense and emotional rifts happen.  I wish that didn't happen and that all mothers loved their children regardless, but that's not always the case.  I've seen and heard true horror stories about children being shunned or called all sorts of names because they don't want kids, sorry for trying to present the other side. 

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #302 on: February 13, 2014, 09:46:06 AM »
@Freckles: they might not be related for you or your mother, but they are definitely related for some people.  Some women have kids because it's expected and want grandchildren so their children can suffer as they did - if the child decides they don't want kids the mother takes offense and emotional rifts happen.  I wish that didn't happen and that all mothers loved their children regardless, but that's not always the case.  I've seen and heard true horror stories about children being shunned or called all sorts of names because they don't want kids, sorry for trying to present the other side.

It is really sad how true this is. Just as kids get shunned for coming out as homosexual. 

While it isn't why we had kids, my mother was definitely one of those that pressured the "get married and have kids line".  I know she wouldn't have shunned me if I didn't, but there is definitely pressure with comments.

CommonCents

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #303 on: February 13, 2014, 10:11:27 AM »
Yep, my mom doesn't think she is pressuring at all, but my brother and I feel differently.  Smalllife is correct that at least some - and maybe a lot - of people that feel they aren't pressuring, do indeed send out signals that are taken as pressure.  Luckily for me, my (4 yr) younger brother has gotten the brunt of it as he married 6 years before me.

Freckles

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #304 on: February 13, 2014, 10:12:06 PM »
@Freckles: they might not be related for you or your mother, but they are definitely related for some people.  Some women have kids because it's expected and want grandchildren so their children can suffer as they did - if the child decides they don't want kids the mother takes offense and emotional rifts happen.  I wish that didn't happen and that all mothers loved their children regardless, but that's not always the case.  I've seen and heard true horror stories about children being shunned or called all sorts of names because they don't want kids, sorry for trying to present the other side.

To the bolded part I say, no, no way.  I don't believe this is true.  I am sure pressure happens, but not for this reason.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #305 on: February 14, 2014, 05:29:10 AM »
Imagine for a second that you don't like being a mother, that all of the motherly things that you actually love are now like pulling teeth.  Now imagine that you have to do those things - things that you hate, even if you may love the child - for 18-20 years with no respite.  And yes, these women do exist.  Couldn't you feel like you've "earned" a grandchild?  That's what I meant by "suffer".  It's like the change from "oh you'll love being a mom" when a woman is pregnant to "sucks, doesn't it?" once its born in conversation.

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #306 on: February 14, 2014, 06:49:25 AM »
Or the waking at night the first couple months. 

First couple of months?!??!?!?!  Let me know your tricks!!  (Our son was doing very well -- usually 8-6, until about 4 weeks ago.. now he's up at least once a night -- some of it is teething some of it was he was finally eating more and who knows what else :) ).

Hope he breaks out of it soon.

DanielleS

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #307 on: February 14, 2014, 02:39:56 PM »
We are in our mid-40's with no kids. I never wanted them, even as a child when I first understood where they came from I thought 'there is no way in hell I am doing that'. :)

My husband was not interested in having kids when we met, though less adamant about it than I am :) Thankfully he is now very happy we don't have any so I am happy he has no regrets.

ginastarke

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #308 on: February 18, 2014, 12:23:00 PM »
37 Here, no kids, probably not going to have any. Would love to have been a parent but I would have needed to get my financial act together  much younger to be able to home or private school. The local public schools here are terrible.  I think I also spent way too much time listening to poor friends over the years and developed a fear of state involvement that higher incomes don't even have to consider.

Letj

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #309 on: February 19, 2014, 04:38:17 PM »
Smalllife I take it you don't have any children.  I don't know any mother that views child rearing the way you describe; I guess it's possible if they have mental illness or are on drugs or something. The reality is that most mothers love and adore their children even when they are stressed out by life's inevitable ups and down unless there are major stressors, drug use, mental illness, etc in their lives.  Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #310 on: February 19, 2014, 04:57:43 PM »
Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

Now that is patently not true, even if you think that mothers don't regret their children or see motherhood as bore/pain.   Don't assume that your experiences are felt by every other woman who gave birth.  Are the parents who abuse their child/ren included in this?  Those that neglect their child/ren?  Those that abandon their child/ren?  Please do a quick google search about parents who regret having kids, it's not that hard and should be illuminating to the parents who think that their joy is universal. 

killingxspree

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #311 on: February 20, 2014, 08:52:07 AM »
Smalllife I take it you don't have any children.  I don't know any mother that views child rearing the way you describe; I guess it's possible if they have mental illness or are on drugs or something. The reality is that most mothers love and adore their children even when they are stressed out by life's inevitable ups and down unless there are major stressors, drug use, mental illness, etc in their lives.  Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

I don't think mothers who regret having kids are mentally ill or drug addicts or something? That's going a bit far... maybe none of your acquaintances are the mothers that happen to regret having kids?

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #312 on: February 20, 2014, 09:19:24 AM »
Smalllife I take it you don't have any children.  I don't know any mother that views child rearing the way you describe; I guess it's possible if they have mental illness or are on drugs or something. The reality is that most mothers love and adore their children even when they are stressed out by life's inevitable ups and down unless there are major stressors, drug use, mental illness, etc in their lives.  Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

I don't think mothers who regret having kids are mentally ill or drug addicts or something? That's going a bit far... maybe none of your acquaintances are the mothers that happen to regret having kids?

I wonder how many of those would regret not having kids if they hadn't?

Regret is a funny thing like that..  All you are doing is taking an educated guess at how you would feel in a different situation…

Sparky

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #313 on: February 20, 2014, 07:01:06 PM »
No kids that I know about, totally "meh" on the subject. If it happens, so be it, if not, whatever. I'd say at best 50/50 chance I'll have kids.


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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2014, 07:06:07 PM »
Regret is a funny thing like that..  All you are doing is taking an educated guess at how you would feel in a different situation…

Good point.

Freckles

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #315 on: February 22, 2014, 03:40:50 PM »
I'm sure my dad would rather not be a dad but he's never given any indication that he resents the five of us.

Five?  Good lord!  You'd think that if you didn't want to be a dad you'd stop after one.  Maybe two if you really weren't sure at first...  unless you are one of a set of quintuplets?

I'm sorry that you think you dad would rather not be a dad.  That's sad. 

Gray Matter

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #316 on: February 23, 2014, 07:11:41 AM »
I know quite a few mothers that wouldn't have kids if they had the chance to do it over. Many won't come out and say they regret kids because it's so taboo to not unconditionally love them but when you listen to them talk you can tell they do. Some of these are great mothers but still wish they hadn't had kids.

Not having been part of these conversations, I can't say for sure, but I would be careful about thinking you can tell if someone wishes they didn't have kids by just listening to them talk.  When I get together with my girlfriends, we sometimes vent about our kids.  I am even more likely to do this with my friends who don't have kids, because I assume those who have chosen not to have kids don't really want to listen to me wax poetically about how they're the best thing I ever did, how they've given meaning to my life, how there's nothing else like it in the world, no love that comes even close, etc.  In a sub-conscious way, I think I try to validate their decision not to have children by exaggerating the downsides of having kids.  (Now you've got me wondering if any of them think I regret having kids, because that is absolutely NOT the case!)

You do have a good point about people not feeling like they can talk openly about this, and that there are taboos.  I read somewhere that an anonymous survey showed that approximately one-third of parents would not have children if they could do it over.  And considering that nearly one-half of births in the US are unplanned, that's not really surprising (I do think planned births can lead to regret, and unplanned births can be the best thing that ever happened to people, so it can go any number of ways).

I just wish we were better able to predict what will make our future selves happy, because regretting having children must feel horrible, as must regretting not having them.  It's damned hard being a parent, and the fierce love I feel for my children and the gratitude that they're in my lives is what makes it all worthwhile.

Dr.Vibrissae

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #317 on: February 23, 2014, 07:24:59 AM »
Smalllife I take it you don't have any children.  I don't know any mother that views child rearing the way you describe; I guess it's possible if they have mental illness or are on drugs or something. The reality is that most mothers love and adore their children even when they are stressed out by life's inevitable ups and down unless there are major stressors, drug use, mental illness, etc in their lives.  Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

I don't think mothers who regret having kids are mentally ill or drug addicts or something? That's going a bit far... maybe none of your acquaintances are the mothers that happen to regret having kids?
I know women who are mentally ill/drug addicts who do not regret having children, although how the children feel about it is a separate issue.  I just don't think the two are correlated, and it's this sort of reasoning that leads to the stigma around not wanting/regretting having children.  I don't think regret has anything to do with how much people love their children either.

I believe my father regrets having children, and is disappointed in a way that we're going to have one.  But I also know he loves us more than anything (direct quotes on both counts.) and that he will be an excellent grandfather.

Daleth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #318 on: February 23, 2014, 07:49:38 AM »
Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

Now that is patently not true, even if you think that mothers don't regret their children or see motherhood as bore/pain.   Don't assume that your experiences are felt by every other woman who gave birth.  Are the parents who abuse their child/ren included in this?  Those that neglect their child/ren?  Those that abandon their child/ren?  Please do a quick google search about parents who regret having kids, it's not that hard and should be illuminating to the parents who think that their joy is universal.

That would be why Letj said "most" mothers, not "all" mothers. Most mothers do love their kids; most mothers do not abuse or neglect them. I feel sorry for you for whatever awful experiences you must have had to make you have the perspective you have.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #319 on: February 23, 2014, 08:20:31 AM »
Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

Now that is patently not true, even if you think that mothers don't regret their children or see motherhood as bore/pain.   Don't assume that your experiences are felt by every other woman who gave birth.  Are the parents who abuse their child/ren included in this?  Those that neglect their child/ren?  Those that abandon their child/ren?  Please do a quick google search about parents who regret having kids, it's not that hard and should be illuminating to the parents who think that their joy is universal.

That would be why Letj said "most" mothers, not "all" mothers. Most mothers do love their kids; most mothers do not abuse or neglect them. I feel sorry for you for whatever awful experiences you must have had to make you have the perspective you have.


No awful experiences, just sick of judgmental women who think that giving birth is the be-all-end-all and that everyone who doesn't want kids has some awful experience to make her think that way.  Some people legitimately don't want kids and I wish that the stigma against those people would go away.  It gets frustrating. 

Edit: fixed quote tags
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 11:26:49 AM by smalllife »

Villanelle

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #320 on: February 23, 2014, 12:08:01 PM »
I think 95% (made up #) of mothers say, "I have never regretted having kids" say that because it's what a mom is supposed to say, regardless of whether it's true. Someone earlier cited  1/3 number in an anonymous survey, and I am not a bit surprised by that.  It feels awful, and like a betrayal to consider that one might have been better off in some significant ways without kids once those kids are real people and not just hypotheticals.  It's too much like wishy little Sally and Timmy away.   So I don't blame them.  There's a lot of societal pressure there, as well as some cultural norms at play. I think that for the moms (and maybe dads, to a lesser extent) who actually might regret it, they can't even admit it to themselves in most cases, much less to anyone else. So that fact that almost no one ever says that doesn't mean to me that it is quite as universal as it might seem.

I am nearly 40, don't have kids, and don't plan to change that.  (I am married and have been for over a decade.)  I get that they make some people happy, and that some people would feel utterly incomplete even if every other aspect of their lives were nearly perfect, had they no children. 

I don't have kids (which I find to be a common assumption when I tell people I don't want my own), and I don't look down on those who choose differently (defensiveness is another common reaction when I state my position on the matter).  I wish my choice was generally accorded the same respect, but it often isn't.  But that's okay, too, in the end.  They are the ones who come off as judgmental asses, and I go on being happy. 

Freckles

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #321 on: February 23, 2014, 01:33:57 PM »
I keep reading that on this thread, by people who don't have kids.  That lots of  parents wish they hadn't had kids.  But also on this thread I've read many, many parents say "Kids are awesome!  Hard at times, yes, but awesome!  I'm so glad I have them!"  And I think I read ONE person say that even though she loves her kid, she really doesn't enjoy being a mother. 

And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #322 on: February 23, 2014, 01:47:01 PM »
I keep reading that on this thread, by people who don't have kids.  That lots of  parents wish they hadn't had kids.  But also on this thread I've read many, many parents say "Kids are awesome!  Hard at times, yes, but awesome!  I'm so glad I have them!"  And I think I read ONE person say that even though she loves her kid, she really doesn't enjoy being a mother. 

And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

I think you are reading in this a bit. I don't think anyone on this thread said that anyone else on this thread secretly regrets having kids. I think citing studies saying that some portion of parents do regret having children is interesting and related, but not the same as the childfree people on this thread saying that the parents on this thread simply must regret having kids. I think mostly everyone on this thread is just being as honest as possible, since the question was "Who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?"

Villanelle

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #323 on: February 23, 2014, 04:08:19 PM »
I keep reading that on this thread, by people who don't have kids.  That lots of  parents wish they hadn't had kids.  But also on this thread I've read many, many parents say "Kids are awesome!  Hard at times, yes, but awesome!  I'm so glad I have them!"  And I think I read ONE person say that even though she loves her kid, she really doesn't enjoy being a mother. 

And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

Not at all the same.  I think that *some* parents have some regret about that choice.  That is not even in the same ball park as saying to an individual that she will regret  not having kids, that one can't know love until she has kids, that not having kids is a selfish decision, or any number of other things the child free hear.  Has anyone ever said to your face, when you announced a pregnancy, "you'll regret it"?  Have they said to you, "it's so selfish of you to have children. Having kids is a really selfish choice.  And don't you worry about making your parents sad?"  Have you been told that while you may think you know what love is, you are actually deluded because you can't possibly know true love?  Have you been told you must hate children?  No?  Then it's not the same. 

Saying that some hypothetical portion of a group has regrets is not the same kind of judgment or insult or generalization as any of those things. 

As for the "needing [you] to be secretly happy about having kids", no one has said anything close to that and perhaps that's your defensiveness speaking, because you certainly didn't get that from this thread.  I don't need anyone to feel anything about their choices one way or another, whether their choices match mine or not.  I'm cool with my choice.  And I think most people who have kids (and those who don't) are cool with their choices.  That has nothing at all to do with the fact that I suspect some people have some regrets about having kids (and I admit the same is true for the child free), or that I think most who do have regrets find it hard to speak up. 

And no, it doesn't make me feel better or worse that I am quite certain a decent number of people have some regrets about their choice to have kids. (As do, again, some of those who chose not to have kids.) Does it make you feel better that there are probably some child free people who regret their choice?  If it does, you are kind of an asshole, just as I would be kind of an asshole if I get a schadenfraude hit of glee that some people feel a bit sad about their life choices. 

PMG

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #324 on: February 23, 2014, 08:32:43 PM »
No kids. 

30. Not sure I want them.  I'm selfish and not sure I can be the kind of person it takes to be a good parent.

I do feel maternal urges at times, and if the right man came along I might be convinced, but I've said no for so long it would take something extraordinary to make me change my mind.

limeandpepper

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #325 on: February 23, 2014, 08:49:20 PM »
And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

I think you're not reading the thread very carefully, given that you managed to interpret the discussion totally out of context and come up with the most negative spin.

No one is saying that everyone regrets having kids. They are saying that SOME people regret having kids, but that it's not socially acceptable to indicate this. And as for the reason why people are bringing up the regret aspect, it is because there is always someone who says something like, "you'll change your mind once you have your own." Now the point we are making, is that NOT EVERYONE falls in love with being a parent once they have their own children, so for someone who isn't particularly enamoured by the idea of having children, this is a dangerous assumption to make.

Hope it's all clear to you now. :)

iris lily

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #326 on: February 23, 2014, 08:59:29 PM »
I'm way too awesome to let my genes die with me.

That's funny to be so confident! I don't have kids but for about 2 seconds when I was 42 years old considered adopting, but it would have had to be a little girl from China. I wanted only Asian kids. They are smart and beautiful, nothing that I could produce, haha.

limeandpepper

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #327 on: February 23, 2014, 09:18:10 PM »
I'm way too awesome to let my genes die with me.

That's funny to be so confident! I don't have kids but for about 2 seconds when I was 42 years old considered adopting, but it would have had to be a little girl from China. I wanted only Asian kids. They are smart and beautiful, nothing that I could produce, haha.

Not all Asians are smart and beautiful, and I say that as an Asian - but I would like to think I am one of the smart and beautiful ones. :p

I must confess I have been tempted by the genetic thing... my boyfriend and I are of different ethnicities, so sometimes I think, our offspring can potentially be such an awesome combination! Maybe, just maybe... And then I remember we'll still be stuck with them even if they're not awesome. Haha! Jokes aside, I really don't think I have the fortitude to deal with a child that comes with issues, therefore I feel it is probably not responsible to have one unless I have the passion to overcome that hurdle - and I don't have the passion, I am quite ambivalent for the most part.

Freckles

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #328 on: February 24, 2014, 12:42:14 AM »
And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

I think you're not reading the thread very carefully, given that you managed to interpret the discussion totally out of context and come up with the most negative spin.

No one is saying that everyone regrets having kids. They are saying that SOME people regret having kids, but that it's not socially acceptable to indicate this. And as for the reason why people are bringing up the regret aspect, it is because there is always someone who says something like, "you'll change your mind once you have your own." Now the point we are making, is that NOT EVERYONE falls in love with being a parent once they have their own children, so for someone who isn't particularly enamoured by the idea of having children, this is a dangerous assumption to make.

Hope it's all clear to you now. :)

I suppose it would be clearer to me if I thought what you are saying here in this post is what all were saying in all the posts.  What you said (in your second paragraph) is quite reasonable and understandable.  I thought most of the this now-eight-page thread was a rather thoughtful and interesting discussion.  But then I started to feel a little peeved, like those who have been judged for not having children must have felt peeved, because some of the comments were a little harsh "I think 95% (made up #) of mothers say, "I have never regretted having kids" say that because it's what a mom is supposed to say, regardless of whether it's true." Or even ridiculous (the reason a mother would pressure her grown kids to have children was so that her kids would suffer the way she did.)  I don't think I've interpreted the discussion out of context or given it the most negative spin.  I thinks it's fair to feel judged if I say "I have never regretted having kids" and then someone says that I only say that because I'm supposed to say that or am afraid to admit the "truth."  It couldn't be farther from the truth, in my case or in the case of countless parents I know, so I have to wonder why someone would think that or assert that.

For the record, I didn't read any parent here tell anyone that they would change their mind once they had kids.  So I don't think we need that talking-to about respect so much, or about making dangerous assumptions. I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to people having been rude to people in real life who chose to be childless, and now they have a bit of a chip on their shoulders about the topic. 

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #329 on: February 24, 2014, 01:01:10 PM »
And then the answer to that, by the childless, is that we just can't admit it if that's how we feel.

So it just makes me wonder, does it help you to feel better about not having kids if you think that those who did have them wish they didn't, and that those who don't say they regret it, actually do?  Or what?  Why?  If you're truly happy about not having kids, why do you need us to be secretly unhappy about having kids?  And how is that not being judgmental?  That's just doing the same thing you complain others do to you about judging you for not having kids.  Same coin, different side.

I think you're not reading the thread very carefully, given that you managed to interpret the discussion totally out of context and come up with the most negative spin.

No one is saying that everyone regrets having kids. They are saying that SOME people regret having kids, but that it's not socially acceptable to indicate this. And as for the reason why people are bringing up the regret aspect, it is because there is always someone who says something like, "you'll change your mind once you have your own." Now the point we are making, is that NOT EVERYONE falls in love with being a parent once they have their own children, so for someone who isn't particularly enamoured by the idea of having children, this is a dangerous assumption to make.

Hope it's all clear to you now. :)

I suppose it would be clearer to me if I thought what you are saying here in this post is what all were saying in all the posts.  What you said (in your second paragraph) is quite reasonable and understandable.  I thought most of the this now-eight-page thread was a rather thoughtful and interesting discussion.  But then I started to feel a little peeved, like those who have been judged for not having children must have felt peeved, because some of the comments were a little harsh "I think 95% (made up #) of mothers say, "I have never regretted having kids" say that because it's what a mom is supposed to say, regardless of whether it's true." Or even ridiculous (the reason a mother would pressure her grown kids to have children was so that her kids would suffer the way she did.)  I don't think I've interpreted the discussion out of context or given it the most negative spin. I thinks it's fair to feel judged if I say "I have never regretted having kids" and then someone says that I only say that because I'm supposed to say that or am afraid to admit the "truth." It couldn't be farther from the truth, in my case or in the case of countless parents I know, so I have to wonder why someone would think that or assert that.

For the record, I didn't read any parent here tell anyone that they would change their mind once they had kids.  So I don't think we need that talking-to about respect so much, or about making dangerous assumptions. I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to people having been rude to people in real life who chose to be childless, and now they have a bit of a chip on their shoulders about the topic. 

I'm the one who said that first bolded.  What's harsh about it?  Most (ballpark 95%) moms say they don't regret it.  And they say that whether it is true, or not.  For most, it probably is true, but for a few, it surely isn't.  How is that harsh? 

As for the second bolded, I do think it would be fair to feel judged if someone said that.  The problem is that no one has said that.  You are taking generalities that people claim exist and treating it as though they've said they are true for *you*.  No on has said anything about your situation specifically.  No one has said that *you* secretly regret having kids.  I'm not sure why you keep insisting that's the case.  What people have actually said is that some people do regret kids and don't speak up about it.  If that doesn't apply to you because you aren't part of that "some", then it doesn't apply.  Move on.  Nothing to see here.  But you seem intent on insisting that someone is claiming you regret your decisions, when nothing of the sort has been said.

You seem unusually defensive about things no one has actually said. 

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #330 on: February 24, 2014, 04:27:44 PM »
I imagine most of us on this thread are guilty of confirmation bias--we collect situations that validate our decisions and discard those that don't.  We grossly over- or under-estimate whatever we need to in order to feel like our decision was the right one.

If I chose not to have children, I am likely to over-emphasize how noisy and messy and expensive and time-consuming they are and also to over-estimate the number of women who regret having them.

If I chose to have children, I gloss over some of the truly difficult aspects and focus on the sheer joy of it.  I gather all the stories of women who changed their minds about having children and are over-joyed, and ignore all the women who are thrilled with their childfree lives.  And I over-estimate how empty my life would be without them.

If I want children, but am unable to have them, I probably over-estimate how much happier I would be with children.  Even so, these are the women who get the most sympathy from me, because the choice has been taken away from them.

I'm sorry we women face such judgement, regardless of the choices we make.  Those who don't have children get judged by those who do.  Those who do have kids get all kinds of judgement about how we're raising them, often from those who do not have children.  It's understandable that we become defensive and do what we can to justify our choices.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #331 on: February 24, 2014, 09:12:55 PM »
Well said, Gray Matter.

And, yes, it was the wording.  Thanks for helping to clarify, Maigahane.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #332 on: February 25, 2014, 05:07:59 AM »
But then I started to feel a little peeved, like those who have been judged for not having children must have felt peeved, because some of the comments were a little harsh "I think 95% (made up #) of mothers say, "I have never regretted having kids" say that because it's what a mom is supposed to say, regardless of whether it's true."

I'm the one who said that first bolded.  What's harsh about it?  Most (ballpark 95%) moms say they don't regret it.  And they say that whether it is true, or not.  For most, it probably is true, but for a few, it surely isn't.  How is that harsh? 
It's your wording. I read it the same way I'm sure Freckles did "95% of moms say they don't regret their kids because that's what they're supposed to say" as in 95% of women who have kids regret them whether or not they are saying it

"Regardless of whether it's true."  That means it is true for some of those who say it. 

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #333 on: February 25, 2014, 05:37:17 PM »
Nowhere in this thread has anyone brought up the fact that many people are infertile. Making snap judgments on someone's life based on whether they have kids or not can cause a lot of pain to those of us that are infertile. I found out I was infertile in my mid-teens. It is actually very hard emotionally to grasp that at that age. Especially when you are told to keep it secret because no one really needs to know.

What do you think it worse: finding out you are infertile at a very young age, or always wishing to have children and finding out you are infertile after many painful attempts to try and get pregnant. There are downsides to both cases.

So I have heard all sorts of comments like:
Why don't you have kids?
Easy for you to do because you don't have kids (comments about my travelling, etc.).
A coworker once said out loud that he doesn't understand people that don't have kids. (as if it's always a choice!)

They don't realize how extremely painful it is to hear these things when you are childless due to infertility.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #334 on: February 25, 2014, 06:11:44 PM »
Great points there.  Well said.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #335 on: February 25, 2014, 07:20:21 PM »
I get that losing a child is hurtful, I really do, but you control how much something hurts your feelings and you get to choose whether an innocently-meant but inconsiderate offhand comment will ruin your day. Lots of things in life hurt very much, but getting really offended about them and telling other people that they could never understand how we feel prevents meaningful dialogue. That's why this thread has been so much firestorm and so little mutual understanding. If you want, you can stand on a little hill and be logically unassailable in how right you are that other people are assholes, but does it really do anyone any good?

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #336 on: February 26, 2014, 06:57:35 AM »
Nowhere in this thread has anyone brought up the fact that many people are infertile. Making snap judgments on someone's life based on whether they have kids or not can cause a lot of pain to those of us that are infertile. I found out I was infertile in my mid-teens. It is actually very hard emotionally to grasp that at that age. Especially when you are told to keep it secret because no one really needs to know.

What do you think it worse: finding out you are infertile at a very young age, or always wishing to have children and finding out you are infertile after many painful attempts to try and get pregnant. There are downsides to both cases.

So I have heard all sorts of comments like:
Why don't you have kids?
Easy for you to do because you don't have kids (comments about my travelling, etc.).
A coworker once said out loud that he doesn't understand people that don't have kids. (as if it's always a choice!)

They don't realize how extremely painful it is to hear these things when you are childless due to infertility.

Hi Daisy,

I'm very sorry to hear about your painful experience. I *did* actually mention infertility a few pages back in a couple of my posts. And I think you made some of the same points I did in the same post, that asking people about their status in relationship to children is complex and most likely doesn't belong under the heading of "polite conversation topics."

I understand having tolerance for the lifestyle choices of the childless is the politically correct thing to do. But the very nature of LIFE is working against you. You are the first in your line of ancestors stretching back millions upon millions of years to not procreate. Whether you are religious or not, there is a grand design at play- there is a system that works incredibly well. I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

I'd rather be considered "stupid" than have children I don't want in order to make people like you happy. I assure you that the human race will continue on without me having a baby. And I hope you only think less of people who decide not to have children (childfree by choice), and that you don't think less of those who aren't able to have them due to infertility or other reasons (childless--not by choice).

The thing is that having a baby is a very personal decision, and while you may feel free to judge from the comfort of being behind a computer screen, you have no idea what ultimately led to someone deciding not to have a child. You may think, "Why don't you have kids?" is an innocuous question, but it's usually intensely loaded and not appropriate to ask unless you are extremely close to someone. Some people had terrible childhoods filled with abuse and neglect. Some have serious mental or physical illness in their family that can be passed along genetically even if they don't suffer from it themselves. Some people never find a life partner or find someone late in life and it's too late. Some people are gay and can't afford IVF, surrogacy, or adoption.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:10:06 AM by rubybeth »

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #337 on: February 26, 2014, 07:05:48 AM »
I get that losing a child is hurtful, I really do, but you control how much something hurts your feelings and you get to choose whether an innocently-meant but inconsiderate offhand comment will ruin your day. Lots of things in life hurt very much, but getting really offended about them and telling other people that they could never understand how we feel prevents meaningful dialogue. That's why this thread has been so much firestorm and so little mutual understanding. If you want, you can stand on a little hill and be logically unassailable in how right you are that other people are assholes, but does it really do anyone any good?

Grant, I dare you to go into a bereaved parents forum or meeting and say/write something similar.


I don't think people suffering from grief/loss over losing a child (of any age--including stillborn or miscarriage) is as simple as you make it seem. I get that people can choose to have a positive attitude, people can choose their reactions to things, but the death of a beloved child is not something people choose to 'get really offended' by--it just hurts. And daily reminders of that loss happen in really weird ways for some people, like emotional triggers. Imagine these people are suffering from a kind of PTSD or trauma, because some of them probably really are. And so I think the attempts at understanding need to come from those of us who haven't experienced that loss, not the other way around.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #338 on: February 26, 2014, 08:46:08 AM »
You're threatening me for disagreeing with you?

This is what I mean.

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #339 on: February 26, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »
You're threatening me for disagreeing with you?

This is what I mean.

I'd look at it as a challenge more than a threat.

But it is true.  In some cases, you can't have meaningful dialogue because emotions do run too high and that should be considered ok as people need to grieve.

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #340 on: February 26, 2014, 02:40:51 PM »
You're threatening me for disagreeing with you?

This is what I mean.

Do you feel threatened? Because I dared you to actually say that to someone who has experienced the loss of a child? If you feel fearful/threatened at the thought of doing that, maybe that should be the clue that your response was a bit on the harsh side.

You can go ahead and disagree with me, and feel free to do so. I was not threatening you at all.

I happen to actually know some bereaved parents in real life, and would never say something like what you wrote to them, but to each his own. I don't see it as not being able to have a meaningful dialogue with them about the topic of having children or not, I just think of it as being sensitive to a person's emotional well-being.

Also, I am not sure this thread was meant to be a place for "mutual understanding." The thread topic is "who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?" and the OP started by saying they don't have kids, and don't want them. The parents coming here and saying things are welcome, I'm sure, but this thread was--I believe--originally intended for those who don't have kids to discuss either wanting them or not wanting them.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #341 on: February 26, 2014, 08:14:56 PM »
Nowhere in this thread has anyone brought up the fact that many people are infertile. Making snap judgments on someone's life based on whether they have kids or not can cause a lot of pain to those of us that are infertile. I found out I was infertile in my mid-teens. It is actually very hard emotionally to grasp that at that age. Especially when you are told to keep it secret because no one really needs to know.

What do you think it worse: finding out you are infertile at a very young age, or always wishing to have children and finding out you are infertile after many painful attempts to try and get pregnant. There are downsides to both cases.

So I have heard all sorts of comments like:
Why don't you have kids?
Easy for you to do because you don't have kids (comments about my travelling, etc.).
A coworker once said out loud that he doesn't understand people that don't have kids. (as if it's always a choice!)

They don't realize how extremely painful it is to hear these things when you are childless due to infertility.

I'm sorry to hear you've been through that. I totally understand.

Daisy

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #342 on: February 26, 2014, 08:32:09 PM »
Nowhere in this thread has anyone brought up the fact that many people are infertile. Making snap judgments on someone's life based on whether they have kids or not can cause a lot of pain to those of us that are infertile. I found out I was infertile in my mid-teens. It is actually very hard emotionally to grasp that at that age. Especially when you are told to keep it secret because no one really needs to know.

What do you think it worse: finding out you are infertile at a very young age, or always wishing to have children and finding out you are infertile after many painful attempts to try and get pregnant. There are downsides to both cases.

So I have heard all sorts of comments like:
Why don't you have kids?
Easy for you to do because you don't have kids (comments about my travelling, etc.).
A coworker once said out loud that he doesn't understand people that don't have kids. (as if it's always a choice!)

They don't realize how extremely painful it is to hear these things when you are childless due to infertility.

Hi Daisy,

I'm very sorry to hear about your painful experience. I *did* actually mention infertility a few pages back in a couple of my posts. And I think you made some of the same points I did in the same post, that asking people about their status in relationship to children is complex and most likely doesn't belong under the heading of "polite conversation topics."

I understand having tolerance for the lifestyle choices of the childless is the politically correct thing to do. But the very nature of LIFE is working against you. You are the first in your line of ancestors stretching back millions upon millions of years to not procreate. Whether you are religious or not, there is a grand design at play- there is a system that works incredibly well. I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

I'd rather be considered "stupid" than have children I don't want in order to make people like you happy. I assure you that the human race will continue on without me having a baby. And I hope you only think less of people who decide not to have children (childfree by choice), and that you don't think less of those who aren't able to have them due to infertility or other reasons (childless--not by choice).

The thing is that having a baby is a very personal decision, and while you may feel free to judge from the comfort of being behind a computer screen, you have no idea what ultimately led to someone deciding not to have a child. You may think, "Why don't you have kids?" is an innocuous question, but it's usually intensely loaded and not appropriate to ask unless you are extremely close to someone. Some people had terrible childhoods filled with abuse and neglect. Some have serious mental or physical illness in their family that can be passed along genetically even if they don't suffer from it themselves. Some people never find a life partner or find someone late in life and it's too late. Some people are gay and can't afford IVF, surrogacy, or adoption.

Hi there,

I didn't mean this to become so heated in the discussions above.

Thanks, rubybeth, for your kind words. Yes, it's comments like the one you refer to that I am talking about. People making snap judgments about others from what they see, on the surface, as a childless person. You don't know if they are childless by choice or not. And those that do it by choice have their own valid reasons. Heck, I still need to defend why I don't adopt instead (even as a single person).

I thought I was missing out on something big in my life and I couldn't offer all I could as a woman. My mother actually told me to not talk about it with others since it was a private issue - so this is what I did growing up. It was definitely a strain on relationships and I think a big reason why I have stayed single. Only later as an adult did I realize there are actually many people that don't want or can't have children. I also get the questions on why I am not married, and I think this issue is a big reason why.

I have learned to accept it and can now openly talk about it, so there is no problem. I am in my 40s...no one expects me to be fertile now anyways!

I am a very happy adult with lots of time to do my own thing, travel, help elderly parents, and have been totally blessed with awesome nephews and nieces.

As a matter of fact, my niece inherited the same genetic issue I have and I have been able to talk with her about it and help her deal with it so that she doesn't run into the same emotional roadblocks I did growing up. She seems to be doing fabulously!

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #343 on: February 27, 2014, 07:23:47 AM »
As a matter of fact, my niece inherited the same genetic issue I have and I have been able to talk with her about it and help her deal with it so that she doesn't run into the same emotional roadblocks I did growing up. She seems to be doing fabulously!

I really am sorry to hear what you dealt with and that there were some feelings of shame around your experience and that you were told not to talk about it. I bet you are a really awesome aunt, and it's great that your niece has someone to talk to who knows what she's going through. :)

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #344 on: February 27, 2014, 09:18:55 AM »
Have 4 wanted more but started to late and didn't want to take chance. Having said that I respect the honesty of people that say they don't want kids as opposed to just having them for the sake of it. Its a choice and I am happy with our decision as I am sure most are with theirs. No one should be judged for one way or the other.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #345 on: February 27, 2014, 06:57:05 PM »
Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

Now that is patently not true, even if you think that mothers don't regret their children or see motherhood as bore/pain.   Don't assume that your experiences are felt by every other woman who gave birth.  Are the parents who abuse their child/ren included in this?  Those that neglect their child/ren?  Those that abandon their child/ren?  Please do a quick google search about parents who regret having kids, it's not that hard and should be illuminating to the parents who think that their joy is universal.

I think you missed where I said "almost". Obviously there will be plenty of women regretting their children but it's not as many as you think and often these are women with mental issues, drug habits and otherwise horrible lives.  Nature made sure that very few women would regret their children.  Are you a mother?  If not, I am not sure you'd be able to relate to this post.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #346 on: February 27, 2014, 07:11:39 PM »
Having children is a privilege and great joy that almost every mother couldn't imagine her life without her children.

Now that is patently not true, even if you think that mothers don't regret their children or see motherhood as bore/pain.   Don't assume that your experiences are felt by every other woman who gave birth.  Are the parents who abuse their child/ren included in this?  Those that neglect their child/ren?  Those that abandon their child/ren?  Please do a quick google search about parents who regret having kids, it's not that hard and should be illuminating to the parents who think that their joy is universal.

That would be why Letj said "most" mothers, not "all" mothers. Most mothers do love their kids; most mothers do not abuse or neglect them. I feel sorry for you for whatever awful experiences you must have had to make you have the perspective you have.


No awful experiences, just sick of judgmental women who think that giving birth is the be-all-end-all and that everyone who doesn't want kids has some awful experience to make her think that way.  Some people legitimately don't want kids and I wish that the stigma against those people would go away.  It gets frustrating. 

Edit: fixed quote tags

Not sure where your idea of motherhood comes from but I can tell you it's definitely skewed. A mother does not have to perfect to love, adore and not regret her children.  A few mothers have lots of issues in their lives that often lead them to neglect and abuse their children, for example, some of them have little education and money and grew up in abusive homes and may not be fully capable of handling the stresses of child rearing.  I know this may sound weird but it does not mean that they regret their children.  You may not like children and are trying to justify your choice; I don't think anyone here is taking issue with your choice so don't get uptight if some of us are extolling the virtues of having our children. It's not a slight against you.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #347 on: February 27, 2014, 07:15:55 PM »
21 years old. I only want kids if my future husband agrees to be the stay at home parent. I have big plans and I will not let some wiggling snot monster ruin them. So if he wants kids, he can take care of them.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #348 on: February 27, 2014, 08:02:41 PM »
21 years old. I only want kids if my future husband agrees to be the stay at home parent. I have big plans and I will not let some wiggling snot monster ruin them. So if he wants kids, he can take care of them.

That sounds like a battle  waiting to happen.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #349 on: February 27, 2014, 09:51:00 PM »
This thing exploded and keeps showing up in my unread list.  So I'll answer:

Yes I don't have kids

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!