Author Topic: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?  (Read 95358 times)

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2013, 09:36:19 PM »
And where that employer chooses who they put pressure on based on whether or not they have children... yes, that is discrimination on the basis of being childfree. Which is no more valid than any other form of discrimination.

^ This.

Spork

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #151 on: October 16, 2013, 08:14:37 AM »
My problem is that employers shouldn't be encouraging anyone to stay late for unpaid overtime
Eh. Isn't that part of the deal in most industries in exchange for being salaried? Maybe Oz is different...

Not really.  Or at least... that hasn't been my experience.  The deal I've generally made is: I'll work extra for no extra money in a pinch.  If you need to work overtime all the time, you've apparently not hired enough people.  Everyone has crunch times.  If it's always an emergency, it's not my problem.

hybrid

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #152 on: October 16, 2013, 09:10:13 AM »
Anecdotally speaking, in my years it's always been a given that workers with kids are by definition the least reliable (which is not to say unreliable, but less reliable than workers without kids).  Kids have this nasty habit of getting sick, having school plays, after school activities, day care that gets pricy if you are late, etc.

Now before someone gets hot under the collar I've raised two kids and I was one of those folks for a long time.  There were times where it was not at all convenient for me to be absent from work but I was absent anyway.  Same for my coworkers with kids.  You do what you have to do.

By definition if you are going to maintain work life balance there are going to be times when you will tell your employer you cannot be available for X because you need to take care of Y.  If Y is a sick kid, it's understood.  If Y is a round of golf?  Not so much.  Rounds of golf can be cancelled.  Sick kids cannot.

I've also found that most employers totally understand this.  So when it comes to someone getting a pass for missing work, having to miss work because you have parental responsibilities typically gets you that pass.   

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #153 on: October 16, 2013, 12:06:32 PM »
Quote
Eh. Isn't that part of the deal in most industries in exchange for being salaried? Maybe Oz is different...
No, it's not different here. Most people work more than their 'standard' hours, some work quite a lot more (I have a BIL who works a 70 hour week - yuk). I'm just a bit militant about work life balance. I choose to stay with an employer who at least makes some advances towards work life balance than earn twice the money and give up my entire waking life to work.
Let me put that another way: in my industry, in the US, nobody thinks that 40 hours is "standard" and nobody throws a fit if they're asked to work more. It's part of the expectations for both parties to the contract - it would be disingenuous to join the form and then pretend to be surprised when you're asked to work 60. I know not every industry follows that practice, but 'standard' is far too strong a word for accounting and finance.

wepner

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #154 on: October 17, 2013, 12:38:24 AM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

+1

I think this isn't as unfair as you are making it out to be.

IF (I'm not convinced it is very widespread) parents do get special treatment everyone can benefit by having more time with their parents when you are kids. It's easy to notice your coworker getting time off for some sort if lame kid related activity but it's impossible to know how many poor schlubs were hard at work on some project while your dad was chaperoning your field trip in 4th grade.

Wepner, would you care to elaborate on your point?  I'm not sure I'm completely understanding your position / thought process. If I'm understanding your position correctly you're saying
1) that perhaps parents don't get special treatment and
2) IF parents do get special treatment it's really not unfair?

I totally agree that parents receiving / not receiving "special treatment" may or may not be widespread. That type of anecdotal evidence can vary a great deal from person to person, and I'm unaware of any scientific data or studies that point to a definitive answer. However, I do have issue with the second point. If 2 workers, alike in experience / pay / compensation level receive different amounts of paid time off only due to one being a parent I find that grossly unfair. Of course it's wonderful for children to have 2 loving, present parents. It's not wonderful for child free workers to be required to work more hours than their parent counterparts.

Yeah I imagine everyone has a different idea of what is fair, IMO differing amounts of paid time off would be super unfair. I was thinking more along the lines of a little more flexibility for taking care of sick kids or a little more priority for not working on vacations or something like that. Sure that isn't exactly fair either and its ultimately subjective whether or not a parent spending time with a kid is inherently more worthwhile than a single person's free time but I feel like its worth some non zero amount. Also it is perfectly reasonable to look at how reliable a worker is when giving promotions as well so that might end up hurting parents more than the "benefit of the doubt" I was advocating would help them.

@happierathome

my response couldn't have been less heated, I don't really think that there is a "right" answer either way, I just threw out my idea because it didn't seem like people were taking into account that even if they never have kids they likely received some tangible benefit from parents getting some sort of "special treatment"

HappierAtHome

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #155 on: October 17, 2013, 01:51:14 AM »
Quote
I just threw out my idea because it didn't seem like people were taking into account that even if they never have kids they likely received some tangible benefit from parents getting some sort of "special treatment"

Yeah, and I think it's true that society as a whole benefits greatly from parents doing more parenting - lower crime rates, higher education rates, etc.

But it's MY responsibility to gain financial security before I have kids so that I can afford not to work full time when I have kids, and thus be there for my kids and be a good parent (fingers crossed). I really don't like the idea of employers deciding who is more worthy of leaving on time, etc, because that is... hideous. And there is no way that I want my colleagues to have more pressure put on them when I have kids, because having ALL THE BABIES!! is my choice and my team mates shouldn't be disadvantaged by the functioning of my ovaries.

I think we actually agree, more or less? Parenting = good for kids.

jrhampt

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #156 on: October 17, 2013, 06:50:55 AM »
No kids, just turned 36, so I've got limited fertility left now anyway.  My spouse and I don't really want kids - I think if either one of us strongly wanted one, the other would cave, but it seems like an 18-year chore at the moment.  I spent years going to grad school and being tied to the school year schedule, and it's really nice to be free of that now.  We did get a lot of pressure from the in-laws when we first got married, but they seem to have given up.

NinetyFour

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #157 on: October 17, 2013, 04:32:53 PM »
Actually, Mrs. Green'stache, you bring up an interesting point--to me, anyway.  I am single, never married (never close), no kids.  Am currently on the outs with my sibs.  I have a friend who is 91 and her family is basically waiting for her to die.  At this rate, I don't think I will have anyone who even notice when I die.  So, yeah, having no kids does sometimes make me wonder about my future.  Hmm...

And I'm happy for you that you get to look forward to hanging with those neat young people you raised--good for you--sounds like fun!

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #158 on: October 17, 2013, 06:35:45 PM »
My question for people who don't plan to have children.  Do you have another support system or group of neighbors/friends who you are very devoted to?  I look forward to my home being filled with grandchildren at holidays, with my kids being there when we are elderly, sick, or widowed.  I just wonder what you feel your future looks like?  (Not judging, just curiosity).

While you are indeed fortunate to have raised children who are growing up to be adult friends, nursing homes are littered with elderly people whose families either can't or don't want to visit or be engaged.   Personally I subscribe to the theory that no child should be born with a job, which would include taking care of its parents in old age.  If they do, you are fortunate, but I would not count on it even if I were to have kids. 

I look forward to a lifetime of exploration, new friendships, community involvement, and a profound lack of children/grandchildren.  I will have had that same lifetime to prepare for old age - saving money for retirement home, mentoring younger generations, forming friendships.  My friends are my family now, why would that change just because we are older?  I am a part of more than one community which will grow with me over time.  I feel like my future looks like many parents when it comes to extreme old age: I may lose my wits, outlive all friends and family, and be at the mercy of my caregivers.  But being in a position where all of the planning is up to me, I will have made arrangements for a power of attorney, DNR, and a living will.

I will respond with a question.  Why do you think an elderly child free person wouldn't have a support system? 

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #159 on: October 17, 2013, 06:43:02 PM »
My question for people who don't plan to have children.  Do you have another support system or group of neighbors/friends who you are very devoted to?  I look forward to my home being filled with grandchildren at holidays, with my kids being there when we are elderly, sick, or widowed.  I just wonder what you feel your future looks like?  (Not judging, just curiosity).

While you are indeed fortunate to have raised children who are growing up to be adult friends, nursing homes are littered with elderly people whose families either can't or don't want to visit or be engaged.   Personally I subscribe to the theory that no child should be born with a job, which would include taking care of its parents in old age.  If they do, you are fortunate, but I would not count on it even if I were to have kids. 

I look forward to a lifetime of exploration, new friendships, community involvement, and a profound lack of children/grandchildren.  I will have had that same lifetime to prepare for old age - saving money for retirement home, mentoring younger generations, forming friendships.  My friends are my family now, why would that change just because we are older?  I am a part of more than one community which will grow with me over time.  I feel like my future looks like many parents when it comes to extreme old age: I may lose my wits, outlive all friends and family, and be at the mercy of my caregivers.  But being in a position where all of the planning is up to me, I will have made arrangements for a power of attorney, DNR, and a living will.

I will respond with a question.  Why do you think an elderly child free person wouldn't have a support system?


I don't think there was any pre-judgement in that question.  I think was asked in genuine curiosity. 

I know family units disintegrate over stupid things, major things, time, and distance.  But the general theory is that your family is your "village".  The respect your elders and help them is something that you are supposed to do and your kin are supposed to do for you.  My parents assisted both of my grand parents, and my wife and I will do the same and hope our kids do.

My brother is childless, spouseless, and has lots of friends -- yet he is also at times very lonely because he's depending on friends (whom have families) or social groups for that engagement.  I live a few hours from him and often worry about what his support system will be like when my parents are not around.  Right now, they are 45 min away for a little less than half of the year.   And it isn't that he isn't capable of having one or won't -- and I know having a spouse  and kids doesn't guarantee having one either -- but it just appears more likely.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #160 on: October 17, 2013, 06:50:45 PM »
I don't think there was any pre-judgement in that question.  I think was asked in genuine curiosity. 
  I wasn't being snarky, nor did I think there was any pre-judgement - not sure where that came from.  My question was merely why there was curiosity in the first place.

This is a time when 20% of women are still childless by the age of 40.  Society will adapt and people will get taken care of, even if there is no biological village to do so.

perthcyclist

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #161 on: October 17, 2013, 07:21:31 PM »
No kids for me. I foster/rescue ex-racing greyhounds and they are enough work even though I can leave them at home for 9 hours a day! A lot of my friends have kids now and it does make it a bit harder to actually see them. I like kids but there are plenty of them around I can be a bad influence to, no need for my own.

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #162 on: October 17, 2013, 07:43:24 PM »
I don't think there was any pre-judgement in that question.  I think was asked in genuine curiosity. 
  I wasn't being snarky, nor did I think there was any pre-judgement - not sure where that came from.  My question was merely why there was curiosity in the first place.

This is a time when 20% of women are still childless by the age of 40.  Society will adapt and people will get taken care of, even if there is no biological village to do so.

I wasn't sure based on the phrasing of the question back.  My apologies.

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #163 on: October 18, 2013, 06:52:13 AM »
I was just asking if people who choose to be child-free have put thought and/or planning into their support systems. I've heard of people going through cancer who make "funny families" of friends and neighbors to help them get to chemo, take them meals,or clean their house when they don't have the energy.  I think it's really great. But I wonder if everyone is so lucky.

Visit any childfree forum online and you'll see this is a question that is often discussed. Of course people think about these things, but I wouldn't have a child when I don't really want one just to have someone who will likely visit me in a nursing home someday, y'know?

Also, I dislike the assumption that those who are childfree don't have "family"--not that you were saying that Mrs. Green'stache, just that this is kind of general assumption I want to challenge. The question to couples is often, "When are you going to start a family?" The thing is, I'm part of a massive family--my dad had 10 siblings, so I have close to 30 cousins on one side, a number of whom are older than me and have children, and some of whom are younger who are like nieces and nephews to me. I grew up nearby to many of them, so we are as "close" as siblings. I also have a sister who is quite a bit younger than I am, and she may end up married with kids at some point. We're a very close-knit family and spend a lot of time together, and have banded together to take care of those who need help. It's no guarantee that someone would step up to visit me in the nursing home someday (and my grandparents are nearly 90 and still living in their house, so who knows if that would even happen), but I think it unlikely that I would be entirely abandoned by such a supportive family.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #164 on: October 18, 2013, 11:08:48 AM »
I was thinking about people who say they do not like or, worse, hate children. Children seems, to me, to the only segment of the population we're allowed to say we "hate."

We'd never say (out loud) that we hate people due to race, religion, etc. Why do folks feel so free to hate an age group--especially when every person had to be in that age group at some point?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:02:28 PM by oldtoyota »

footenote

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #165 on: October 18, 2013, 11:42:26 AM »
I was thinking about people who say they do not like or, worse, hate children. Children seems, to me, to the only segment of the population we're allowed to say we "hate."

We'd never say (out loud) that we had people due to race, religion, etc. Why do folks feel so free to hate an age group--especially when every person had to be in that age group at some point?
+1 I've always been surprised by this and always want to ask "Did you hate yourself when you were a kid...?"

Jimbo

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #166 on: October 18, 2013, 11:59:47 AM »
Well, I hated being a kid and couldn't wait to grow up and do my thing...

Does that count?

Also, people having kids saying 'you'll be sorry when you're old and alone', and then saying not having kids is selfish... The things people say! Crazy.

News flash: We will all end things alone, in a way or another. I wouldn't have it any other way.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #167 on: October 18, 2013, 12:38:06 PM »
I've preferred the company of adults ever since I can remember (so even as a kid I didn't like other kids).   I didn't truly like myself until college.

I also cringe when I hear a baby cry, a toddler scream, or kids playing loudly anywhere indoors (to be fair I do the same thing when adults talk too loud or are rude in stores).  I like well-behaved, quiet kids who do what they are told and don't have meltdowns - those are few and far between though. 

Since when are children the only thing people are allowed to hate?  If anyone mentions they might not like kids they get glares, insults, and silence thrown back.  Not to mention if you do like kids but just don't want them for yourself you are assumed to be a baby hater.  It is not acceptable at all to admit that you don't like children.  It makes you a pariah among women and decreases your dating pool by 90%.   Depending on where you live it is also perfectly acceptable for people - in power and not - to say they distrust or dislike gays, atheists, women, the other political party, etc. etc.   I would say society likes to make labels and hate on the other . . . nothing to do with children in particular.

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #168 on: October 18, 2013, 05:33:49 PM »
There seems to be quite a few of myths / misconceptions / unknowns when it comes to child free individuals and couples. To address those I would like to share how I view and think about things.

I had a wonderful childhood (it seems that some people think a horrible childhood is the reason for being child free). I love kids. Especially my nieces and nephews and close friends' children. I have changed diapers, been peed on, and cleaned up puke several times. I am the named guardian for one set of niece / nephew if the unthinkable should happen to the parents. I have helped my parents provide a loving and supportive home to 40+ foster children over the years. I have a wonderful caring and loving relationship with several people in my life including biological family and friends. DH and I have given thought to old age; however, I think everyone should. The presence / absence of children do not guarantee any type of care-whether good or bad. I will do whatever I can for my parents, but I have lived long enough to realize this is often not the case.

I have never wanted biological children. I have considered adoption at different times of my life; however, DH is not comfortable with that. In short, my life is complete in the ways I want it to be. My family is complete.

Katnina

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #169 on: October 18, 2013, 06:57:47 PM »
smallife, +1 to EVERYTHING you have written! 

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #170 on: October 18, 2013, 07:58:20 PM »

I also cringe when I hear a baby cry, a toddler scream, or kids playing loudly anywhere indoors (to be fair I do the same thing when adults talk too loud or are rude in stores).  I like well-behaved, quiet kids who do what they are told and don't have meltdowns - those are few and far between though. 


Have you ever read the book called The Highly Sensitive Person? You might like it. "Sensitive" is not used in a derogatory sense as in: "You're so sensitive!" The idea behind it is that 20 percent of the population has certain characteristics. The theory is that we developed this way because the highly sensitive person (HSP) (or cat or bird) would be on the outside of the pack and be able to let the rowdy and noisier ones in the center know about danger. Maybe you will find it a good read.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #171 on: October 18, 2013, 08:04:38 PM »
Since when are children the only thing people are allowed to hate?  If anyone mentions they might not like kids they get glares, insults, and silence thrown back.  Not to mention if you do like kids but just don't want them for yourself you are assumed to be a baby hater.  It is not acceptable at all to admit that you don't like children.  It makes you a pariah among women and decreases your dating pool by 90%.   Depending on where you live it is also perfectly acceptable for people - in power and not - to say they distrust or dislike gays, atheists, women, the other political party, etc. etc.   I would say society likes to make labels and hate on the other . . . nothing to do with children in particular.

My comment was mostly referring to this board. To clarify, I can't imagine someone writing on a (or this) message board that they hate old people or people of different colors or races. Maybe they have. I have not seen that here.

Although there may be some people who think the way you've outlined above, you are speaking in broad brushstrokes (as was I, I'll admit). I personally do not care if people have kids or not. However, if you said you hate kids then, yeah, I would find that caustic and rude. Maybe it turns off people around you because they think you sound angry.

For many years, I had no intention of having a child. When that was the case, I did not go around telling people I hated kids. I said I had no interest in having them and kept my other thoughts to myself. Eventually, I really wanted one and I'm happy for me that I went ahead and became a parent. At the same time, I don't care if other people have no kids or five kids.

Note: I spent about 10 years getting asked about kids and having to say I did not want them. I am familiar with the reactions. Other than longing, I noticed nothing bad. I had no trouble getting dates and even married someone with the idea that we would not have children.

I don't think it is kind or graceful to say you hate a certain segment of society due to their age, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I just can't imagine saying I hate a certain group. Hate is such a strong word and has caused such misery in history (thinking of the Jews, in particular).

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.



« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:09:04 PM by oldtoyota »

ender

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #172 on: October 19, 2013, 02:38:22 PM »
I never thought it would feel weird to be a 25-year old who would absolutely love to be a dad someday, but this thread definitely makes me feel like a minority :)

I know they will take tons of my time, tons of my $$$ (especially if I end up marrying someone who wants to be a SAHM), and be a ton of responsibility. And I still want them anyways for reasons I don't really understand.

perthcyclist

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #173 on: October 19, 2013, 07:09:14 PM »
Since when are children the only thing people are allowed to hate?  If anyone mentions they might not like kids they get glares, insults, and silence thrown back.  Not to mention if you do like kids but just don't want them for yourself you are assumed to be a baby hater.  It is not acceptable at all to admit that you don't like children.  It makes you a pariah among women and decreases your dating pool by 90%.   Depending on where you live it is also perfectly acceptable for people - in power and not - to say they distrust or dislike gays, atheists, women, the other political party, etc. etc.   I would say society likes to make labels and hate on the other . . . nothing to do with children in particular.

My comment was mostly referring to this board. To clarify, I can't imagine someone writing on a (or this) message board that they hate old people or people of different colors or races. Maybe they have. I have not seen that here.

Although there may be some people who think the way you've outlined above, you are speaking in broad brushstrokes (as was I, I'll admit). I personally do not care if people have kids or not. However, if you said you hate kids then, yeah, I would find that caustic and rude. Maybe it turns off people around you because they think you sound angry.

For many years, I had no intention of having a child. When that was the case, I did not go around telling people I hated kids. I said I had no interest in having them and kept my other thoughts to myself. Eventually, I really wanted one and I'm happy for me that I went ahead and became a parent. At the same time, I don't care if other people have no kids or five kids.

Note: I spent about 10 years getting asked about kids and having to say I did not want them. I am familiar with the reactions. Other than longing, I noticed nothing bad. I had no trouble getting dates and even married someone with the idea that we would not have children.

I don't think it is kind or graceful to say you hate a certain segment of society due to their age, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I just can't imagine saying I hate a certain group. Hate is such a strong word and has caused such misery in history (thinking of the Jews, in particular).

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Perhaps people say they 'hate' kids to stop the conversation when they get sick of so many people asking them about it and then giving them those knowing looks and saying "I bet you change your mind someday"

Aloysius_Poutine

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #174 on: October 19, 2013, 07:55:47 PM »
I can only speak from personal experience, but I feel like my life truly began when I had a child. The depth of joy and sorrow, the incredible range of emotions and experiences and ways you grow while being a parent cannot be overstated. It is simply an experience that cannot be understood without first having a kid. For these reasons I can infer that the childless actually have no idea what they are missing, no matter how much nannying they've done or how many kids were in their family growing up.

I understand having tolerance for the lifestyle choices of the childless is the politically correct thing to do. But the very nature of LIFE is working against you. You are the first in your line of ancestors stretching back millions upon millions of years to not procreate. Whether you are religious or not, there is a grand design at play- there is a system that works incredibly well. I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

KMMK

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #175 on: October 19, 2013, 08:24:18 PM »
I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

Wow. This is unbelievably rude. I could list the specifics reasons but not worth my time.

Spork

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #176 on: October 20, 2013, 07:02:14 AM »
I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

Wow. This is unbelievably rude. I could list the specifics reasons but not worth my time.

So, going back to earlier in the thread:  anyone that doesn't think there isn't some bit of "society looks down on you for not having kids" ... I think M523's attitude is what was being referred to...

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #177 on: October 20, 2013, 07:10:36 AM »
anyone that doesn't think there isn't some bit of "society looks down on you for not having kids"
That was never the argument.

perthcyclist

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #178 on: October 20, 2013, 07:15:08 AM »
I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

Wow. This is unbelievably rude. I could list the specifics reasons but not worth my time.

Agreed!

Spork

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #179 on: October 20, 2013, 07:17:10 AM »
My point is:

but I don't see anyone criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

people often DO get criticized for choosing not to reproduce:

Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

So... yeah, that was sort of the argument.


grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #180 on: October 20, 2013, 07:58:52 AM »
That's a really compelling quote when it's entirely removed from context.

Spork

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #181 on: October 20, 2013, 08:29:40 AM »
That's a really compelling quote when it's entirely removed from context.

LOL... half sentence added for "clarity".

Quote from: grantmeaname
I agree that there's a stigma against admitting parenting is difficult (and especially against doubting whether you should have had kids), but I don't see anyone criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

I must say I don't really understand what you're arguing here.  Folks say they've been treated strangely for choosing not to reproduce.  It happens.  Now there's no reason for the childfree to get their feelers hurt by it... but arguing it isn't there is kind of silly too.

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #182 on: October 20, 2013, 08:41:52 AM »
You don't see how the first clause and the second clause describe different things, or you don't understand that I think there's a difference between something being "highly stigmatized" and something occasionally "raising eyebrows" or causing isolated strange comments?

Spork

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #183 on: October 20, 2013, 08:55:57 AM »
You don't see how the first clause and the second clause describe different things, or you don't understand that I think there's a difference between something being "highly stigmatized" and something occasionally "raising eyebrows" or causing isolated strange comments?

I understand the difference between the first and second clause.  I wasn't sure why you'd doubt that some folks can be a bit of an ass to the childless.  ...or why you'd argue with them over what they saw when you weren't around.

And I presume you also understand you really can no longer use the second clause.  You now have seen people criticized for choosing not to reproduce.

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #184 on: October 20, 2013, 09:01:43 AM »
I wasn't sure why you'd doubt that some folks can be a bit of an ass to the childless.  ...or why you'd argue with them over what they saw when you weren't around.
Also never the argument I was making.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2013, 09:20:09 AM »
Does anyone else think that part of the difference is self-regulation? That parents are more likely to ask for time off or flexible arrangements when needed, and that people without kids don't think to ask?

This is a good question.

Also, maybe they don't need to ask because they do not have school events (conferences, etc) to attend during the day?


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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2013, 09:23:27 AM »
I can assure you that my hubby doesn't get slack for having children. And he works plenty of weekends and nights after they have gone to bed. Just because he is leaving early once a week for soccer practice doesn't mean he is working less hours. He puts in 70 hours on a typical week. This month, it is much more.

Exactly. I might be gone at 10 am on a Thursday for a school event, but maybe others are not noticing I was working late at night three times the same week.



oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2013, 09:29:56 AM »
Since when are children the only thing people are allowed to hate?  If anyone mentions they might not like kids they get glares, insults, and silence thrown back.  Not to mention if you do like kids but just don't want them for yourself you are assumed to be a baby hater.  It is not acceptable at all to admit that you don't like children.  It makes you a pariah among women and decreases your dating pool by 90%.   Depending on where you live it is also perfectly acceptable for people - in power and not - to say they distrust or dislike gays, atheists, women, the other political party, etc. etc.   I would say society likes to make labels and hate on the other . . . nothing to do with children in particular.

My comment was mostly referring to this board. To clarify, I can't imagine someone writing on a (or this) message board that they hate old people or people of different colors or races. Maybe they have. I have not seen that here.

Although there may be some people who think the way you've outlined above, you are speaking in broad brushstrokes (as was I, I'll admit). I personally do not care if people have kids or not. However, if you said you hate kids then, yeah, I would find that caustic and rude. Maybe it turns off people around you because they think you sound angry.

For many years, I had no intention of having a child. When that was the case, I did not go around telling people I hated kids. I said I had no interest in having them and kept my other thoughts to myself. Eventually, I really wanted one and I'm happy for me that I went ahead and became a parent. At the same time, I don't care if other people have no kids or five kids.

Note: I spent about 10 years getting asked about kids and having to say I did not want them. I am familiar with the reactions. Other than longing, I noticed nothing bad. I had no trouble getting dates and even married someone with the idea that we would not have children.

I don't think it is kind or graceful to say you hate a certain segment of society due to their age, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I just can't imagine saying I hate a certain group. Hate is such a strong word and has caused such misery in history (thinking of the Jews, in particular).

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Perhaps people say they 'hate' kids to stop the conversation when they get sick of so many people asking them about it and then giving them those knowing looks and saying "I bet you change your mind someday"

I used to get that response. It was annoying to say the least.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2013, 09:31:36 AM »
Anyone who likes to insult those who took a different path - well that just makes you a rather unpleasant person. Which has nothing to do with the kids or no kids issue. My condolences.

And for the record, if your boss keeps giving the childfree people crappy shifts, it's not the fault of the parents. That's just bad management.

+2

Two excellent comments in one post. Thanks, Seattle!

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #189 on: October 20, 2013, 09:56:08 AM »
I can assure you that my hubby doesn't get slack for having children. And he works plenty of weekends and nights after they have gone to bed. Just because he is leaving early once a week for soccer practice doesn't mean he is working less hours. He puts in 70 hours on a typical week. This month, it is much more.

Exactly. I might be gone at 10 am on a Thursday for a school event, but maybe others are not noticing I was working late at night three times the same week.

See I just don't get this line of thinking. While I totally agree that your coworkers don't see the after hours / weekend hours work you do the reverse is also true. Whose to say they also don't put in additional hours?  In every office / job I've been in there have been ambitious go-getters and slackers. Oftentimes whether a coworker had children or not didn't correlate absolutely with go-getter or slacker.

Currently I work in the medical field, and work does not come home with us. There is no "making up work" for coworkers who miss, no matter what the reason. It just falls on the rest of the team to pick up the slack. I don't blame parents for missing for a variety of child centered reasons, especially those unforeseeable times like sickness, etc. However, I do find it unfair when parents feel they have a right to certain vacation times because it lines up with their child's school schedule or when child free/childless coworkers are recruited to work the holiday shifts because they don't have children.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #190 on: October 20, 2013, 07:05:10 PM »
I can assure you that my hubby doesn't get slack for having children. And he works plenty of weekends and nights after they have gone to bed. Just because he is leaving early once a week for soccer practice doesn't mean he is working less hours. He puts in 70 hours on a typical week. This month, it is much more.

Exactly. I might be gone at 10 am on a Thursday for a school event, but maybe others are not noticing I was working late at night three times the same week.

See I just don't get this line of thinking. While I totally agree that your coworkers don't see the after hours / weekend hours work you do the reverse is also true. Whose to say they also don't put in additional hours?  In every office / job I've been in there have been ambitious go-getters and slackers. Oftentimes whether a coworker had children or not didn't correlate absolutely with go-getter or slacker.

Currently I work in the medical field, and work does not come home with us. There is no "making up work" for coworkers who miss, no matter what the reason. It just falls on the rest of the team to pick up the slack. I don't blame parents for missing for a variety of child centered reasons, especially those unforeseeable times like sickness, etc. However, I do find it unfair when parents feel they have a right to certain vacation times because it lines up with their child's school schedule or when child free/childless coworkers are recruited to work the holiday shifts because they don't have children.

I think the person above summed this up:

1. If managers give childless employees unfavorable assignments, that's a management problem.
2. Don't hate people who don't do what you do (whether that is to have kids or not have kids).



« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:07:29 PM by oldtoyota »

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2013, 10:37:10 PM »
This thread (other than the intolerant vitriol from M235) has been a wonderful exchange of experiences and thoughts. I find that really refreshing on the interwebs.

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #192 on: October 21, 2013, 05:27:01 AM »

I also cringe when I hear a baby cry, a toddler scream, or kids playing loudly anywhere indoors (to be fair I do the same thing when adults talk too loud or are rude in stores).  I like well-behaved, quiet kids who do what they are told and don't have meltdowns - those are few and far between though. 


Have you ever read the book called The Highly Sensitive Person? You might like it. "Sensitive" is not used in a derogatory sense as in: "You're so sensitive!" The idea behind it is that 20 percent of the population has certain characteristics. The theory is that we developed this way because the highly sensitive person (HSP) (or cat or bird) would be on the outside of the pack and be able to let the rowdy and noisier ones in the center know about danger. Maybe you will find it a good read.

Yep, it is a good read!  I'll second the recommendation to anyone who perked up at the post. 

 . . ..  now if only the rowdy and noisier people would listen ("Quiet" would be a good book about that)

@Katnina: Thanks!

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #193 on: October 21, 2013, 07:37:02 AM »
This thread (other than the intolerant vitriol from M235) has been a wonderful exchange of experiences and thoughts. I find that really refreshing on the interwebs.

Agreed!

Norrie

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #194 on: October 21, 2013, 08:54:46 AM »
This thread has been a really interesting read.

We have kids, because I had always, always wanted them. My dh never wanted them, but was up for going there with me. Our kids are totally bad ass. I know that everyone thinks that, but these kids seriously are. They've literally never had a tantrum or melted down, and our youngest has seriously never even shown anger or frustration in his entire life. They're funny, quirky, and lovely.
Because they're so easy and mellow, we enjoy the hell out of them. But having kids has taught me that I'm not really a kid person. I like OUR kids (and the rad next door neighbor kid), but for the most part, meh. I don't enjoy having them over to play or hanging out with them or whatever. I like quiet, lots of downtime, and clean environments.

I had never realized that being child-free could bring negative responses until recently. Like Perthcyclist, my beloved aunt and uncle live in Perth, foster greyhounds, and are kid-free. At our wedding, they said that they only piece of advice that they'd give is to think long and hard about having kids. That there were a lot of other adventures out in the world that were ours to have, and that we shouldn't do it just because it's what everyone does.
They've had a wonderful, exciting, fulfilling life together. They have an extremely close marriage (after 40+ years), and they're in the U.S. right now, and have a blast hanging out with us and our kids. They're not lonely, and when they age, there are about 18 nieces, nephews, great-nieces, and great-nephews who will likely fight over getting to help them. They've been wonderful confidants when I've needed to talk to an adult who was not my parent, and even now I turn to them for advice (they have huge stashes).

All that to say, not having kids has always seemed like a healthy choice that someone could make. But then recently two of my favorite co-workers shared some of the nasty comments that people have been making to them, and I was floored. They've heard basically every shitty thing in the book, ranging from "you're selfish" to "you'll die lonely". These women are under the age of 30, and just haven't decided yet. I was infuriated on their behalf.

Parenting is a total crap shoot, and one that requires a lot more thought than I put into it. I never considered that we could have a child with significant health needs, or that we might not be cut out to be parents. I'm glad that we just dove in headfirst, because we love our kids an impossible amount. But we were foolish in how/when we went about all of it, and I have nothing but admiration for people who have considered it, and realized that it's not for them.

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #195 on: October 21, 2013, 12:57:53 PM »
I understand having tolerance for the lifestyle choices of the childless is the politically correct thing to do. But the very nature of LIFE is working against you. You are the first in your line of ancestors stretching back millions upon millions of years to not procreate. Whether you are religious or not, there is a grand design at play- there is a system that works incredibly well. I wouldn't say this to anyone's face, but the internet emboldens me. Not having kids makes you less of a person and is just plain stupid.

I'd rather be considered "stupid" than have children I don't want in order to make people like you happy. I assure you that the human race will continue on without me having a baby. And I hope you only think less of people who decide not to have children (childfree by choice), and that you don't think less of those who aren't able to have them due to infertility or other reasons (childless--not by choice).

The thing is that having a baby is a very personal decision, and while you may feel free to judge from the comfort of being behind a computer screen, you have no idea what ultimately led to someone deciding not to have a child. You may think, "Why don't you have kids?" is an innocuous question, but it's usually intensely loaded and not appropriate to ask unless you are extremely close to someone. Some people had terrible childhoods filled with abuse and neglect. Some have serious mental or physical illness in their family that can be passed along genetically even if they don't suffer from it themselves. Some people never find a life partner or find someone late in life and it's too late. Some people are gay and can't afford IVF, surrogacy, or adoption.

fallstoclimb

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #196 on: October 21, 2013, 01:16:03 PM »
OK, now that this thread is back on topic, I’ll overshare.

I’m married, we are both 29, and we are both SO on the fence about having a kid.  Some days I feel completely overwhelmed by wrestling with the decision.  I’m comfortable putting off the decision until I’m 32,  but no later.  No judgment at ALL to those who wait longer, I know fertility is almost always solid past 32, but I just personally do not want a pregnancy at an advanced age.  So we have 3 years to decide, which sounds like a lot but doesn’t really feel like a lot.  Financially we will be able to swing it in a couple of years.

I don’t care for babies, I’m overwhelmed by toddlers.  I didn’t really connect with my niece and nephew until they were in mid-to-late elementary school, and even then, when I thought they were awesome, I found them exhausting and somewhat tedious.  I have 3 other nephews on the other side under 4, and I have basically no feelings towards them or interaction with them. 

I like a clean, quiet, peaceful and orderly home.  I’m an HSP for sure, and I worry about the environmental stress of a child.  I go to the houses of people with young children and I’m mostly horrified. 

I have a history of depression and actively guard my healthy habits of lots of sleep, regular exercise, thought-out meals and a mix of downtime (introvert) and socialization (preventing loneliness).  I’m afraid I’d lose all that if I had a child, and I’m afraid of postpartum depression, as I have a higher risk of it.

I’m a recreational cyclist and am so into getting stronger and fitter on the bike.  I don’t want to give all that up for a year of pregnancy+newborn at home, and then how do you even fit in cycling when you have a child you have to watch.  My husband and I love having dates of long rides on the bike and the logistics would be so much harder.  I also ride horses and do not want to give that up, but financially I expect I would have to, at least for a while.

I’m afraid of the stress a child would put on our marriage.  We have a strong marriage, but we both handle stress poorly.

I’m scared of having a child with special needs and not being able to rise to the challenge. 

I often get anxious about my husband’s safety when he is out biking or driving home late and I’m worried about that fear multiplying if I had a child to worry about as well.

All that said……I think kids can be pretty cool when they’re a little older and independent.  I think watching your child learn to be a human is probably one of the most amazing experiences there is.  When I think about the future I tend to picture it involving a child, somehow.  I am not sure what we would do with our lives to “make up” for not having kids – cycling doesn’t seem like enough.   

I think my husband’s hesitation is solely about losing free time to bike, general evening freedom, the likelihood certainty of us fighting more due to stress.  Until recently, when it became a real possibility, he always wanted children, whereas I was always, always on the fence.  If I decided I wanted them for sure, I expect he would be on board.  We are both afraid we will become people we don’t really like if we had a child.

We are under a lot of pressure from both sets of parents to have children.  I know my dad would be a fantastic grandparent, and he is getting up there in age, and it hurts my heart when I think about denying him the chance to have a grandchild nearby, or us putting off kids so long he doesn’t really get to know them.  But of course we can’t have kids for other people.

So….I spend a lot of time struggling with this.  If we had an oops we would keep it, but I’m not comfortable with putting us in a position where an oops is likely to happen.  I suspect we would be good parents, but maybe not happy parents.  I don’t know how to make this decision. 

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #197 on: October 21, 2013, 02:31:52 PM »
I don’t know how to make this decision.

Only you can make it. From an outsider reading about you personally, having a kid would not be a good fit for you. It is a very trying first 5 years of your life. Actually, forget you have much of a life for 5 years.

But then when you are teaching your 5yr old how to ride a bike, and soon enough they doing something you love with you, it's like you've found a secret pot of gold.

It's such a gamble...if you take it, just be prepared for the downs and look forward to the ups.

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #198 on: October 21, 2013, 02:35:08 PM »
fallstoclimb, your story sounds very similar to mine, except I was pretty sure, even as a kid, that I didn't want to have kids. You sound really, really on the fence about it. I would suggest going to a counselor and talking out some of your fears, maybe on your own and then maybe with your DH. I would guess that most parents here are going to say "All of what you are feeling is normal; go ahead and have a baby!" whereas CFers are going to say "All of what you are feeling is normal; don't do it!" Best of luck to you. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat more off-board.

Edited to add: you likely have plenty of time to decide. I suggest having your doctor test your fertility, and find out more about your family history of fertility. My mom had my sister at age 38 with basically no issues. I'm 32 and know that if for some totally wacky reason I change my mind in the next 6-10 years, I'm likely in fine shape. Plus there's adoption. Or foster parenting.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 02:40:47 PM by rubybeth »

footenote

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #199 on: October 21, 2013, 02:43:23 PM »
fallstoclimb - You and your spouse may also want to get genetics testing to see if either of you are carrying unexpressed genes that could make pregnancy problematic. Check out 23andme.com if you are interested.

Good luck and best wishes with whatever path you take