Author Topic: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?  (Read 95138 times)

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2013, 08:09:29 AM »
Yes, men often argue that there is no stigma attached to not having kids, I think because they don't experience it themselves. If you're a woman, there definitely is. I've lived in rural, suburban, AND urban areas all over the country. I rarely bring up my desire not to have kids but it is often pushed out of me "When will you have kids?", etc. I don't like to lie so I just simply say, "Oh neither one of us wants any." I don't preach or tear down parenthood but I am still often met with horrible response. One lady I work with actually started shouting at me that I was devaluing HER decision to have kids. I've had them respond that I will never understand how to love another person, that I am selfish, that I am missing out on a huge part of life. I have had them asked if I was sexually abused as a child, I've had them say that I will NEVER BE A REAL WOMAN if I don't have kids. I've heard that it's a woman's DUTY to have kids. Relatives refuse to even believe me and continue to say "when you have kids", which is kind of the equivalent of telling a gay person who comes out to you, "it's just a phase". Some people have said, "your mom must be heartbroken", even though I have a 34 year old brother who has no kids (he is never asked about it, I'm only 26). I've had women say, "I can't understand what happened to you to make you hate children", the list honestly goes on and on and on. Most women will tell you this, maybe not all, but most. 
Is it something that keeps me up at night tossing and turning? No. I realize that their violent reactions come from a place of insecurity and often unhappiness at their own life decisions. I've always been comfortable bucking the "in the box" way of life, it was harder when I was younger actually. But it definitely is an issue if you are female in this society.

+1.  People look at you like you have two heads when the subject comes up, even if you aren't the one who starts the conversation.

Personally, I know what it feels like to be raised by someone who really wasn't all that enthusiastic about being a mother, and have younger siblings I helped raise.  Given that I don't like the idea of pregnancy OR parenthood and cringe when babies cry/kids scream - I won't willingly inflict that on anyone even if "you'll change your mind/it's different when it's your own/I used to feel the same way/wait until you meet the right guy/etc etc".   Children should be born to people who have dreamed of having them their entire lives and know the magnitude of what they are taking on.

Mr. Minsc

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2013, 09:39:30 AM »
31 and no kids, though I would like to have some.  I haven't really put much more thought that on the topic.  It's something I'll have to discuss in greater detail whenever I meet the right woman. :)

Theadyn

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2013, 09:47:16 AM »
I had my one child very young, which I regetted.  My husband, at the time, made it pretty clear he was not cut out to be a parent, didn't want to be, did not enjoy it one bit.  I had a tubal at age 26, such was my desire as to not have more children.  You can't imagine the responses of most people that knew.  I became a single mom at 27, yes it was hard and not all sunshine and rainbows.  Was never the soccer-mom/bake cookies type to be showing pictures to complete strangers of my cute bundle of joy. 

My late hubby, second husband, had no children of his own.  He knew I would be unable to have any more, nor did I desire any  more, and he was cool with that.  He took in my half grown daughter as his own, he would have been a great parent!   Was better at it than I was.  Am thankful my daughter had him.

Now my daughter is grown and is an awesome person.  I understand her much better now, we are more great friends than mom/daughter.  Maybe that's why I deal better being a 'parent' now that she is grown.  Yes, she was an oops, and grew up to a beautiful bright being.  Was lucky in that respect, and very thankful for her.  But also thankful she is grown.   I shy away from dating guys with younger kids, I must admit.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 10:47:09 AM by Theadyn »

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2013, 09:51:01 AM »
You asked for examples, and when they are provided you shoot them down.  In this case my understanding of Mormon culture - much more than "having a Mormon friend once" -  hasn't met your arbitrary bar to qualify as valid in your eyes.
No, I was suggesting that you were changing the subject and your argument wasn't related. To support my position on abortion I could point out that 1) pro-life individuals generally still object to abortion in cases of rape; 2) pro-choice individuals generally don't object to voluntary abstinence and in fact argue in favor of abstinence; and 3) many pro-choice individuals support methods of pre-conception birth control, like condoms, at a higher rate than they support post-conception birth control, like Plan B.

I suspect that, as is so often the case in these forums, you simply want to be in debate class and argue from a point of view.  It often seems that rather than trying to gain an understanding for someone else's point of view you simply want to be on a winning side.  Well, this debate's over, so have a good day.
There's certainly something of that in my nature, but it's something I consciously try to minimize, and I am earnestly interested in the degree to which people think that this bias exists. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. And I of course hope that you have a good day too.

Yes, men often argue that there is no stigma attached to not having kids, I think because they don't experience it themselves. If you're a woman, there definitely is.
I would agree there's a stigma (which is defined as "a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person") for women who decide not to have children, and it's been there pretty much since the dawn of time.
Again, what I'm finding issue with is the extremity of it. Even in hybrid's estimation it's something that would lead to "raised eyebrows", which is much more in line with how extreme I would have estimated the reaction is. I think the fact that I'm younger and most of my day-to-day interactions are with college students, combined with society's increasing tolerance over time may be coloring my view somewhat, but I've certainly never seen anyone disgraced or spat upon for not wanting children. (Incidentally, the most recent relevant paper I could find is from 1986.)

totoro

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2013, 09:53:04 AM »
I just realized I will likely be one of those pushy moms... I really want grandchildren.  I've already let my kids know how much I'm looking forward to that and how much I'm willing to help.  They seem to be planning for children themselves already so hopefully I'm not just being overbearing. 

matchewed

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2013, 10:02:02 AM »
Regarding the possibility of a stigma associated with choosing to be childless, there may be something (and to be frank I have nothing but thoughts in my head, no studies...) with a generational or gender difference. Being in a college environment would expose someone to more open ideas.

Also I imagine it would be hard to deny that in our culture's past that there was a certain amount of double standards between a childless woman or a childless man. Perhaps the current perception is just cultural reverberations of an idea that I hope most people would consider silly in this day and age (the idea that being childless is somehow bad of course).

Fletch

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2013, 10:42:06 AM »
The most extreme reactions I received, which were more than raised eyebrows were
a) from family (many in my family are religious)
b) men I was dating very seriously, and when we started to talk about our ideas for the future and they found out about the not wanting kids thing they. got. mean. (they, as in this has happened more than once)
c) women who have children, who go on and on about how much they love their kids, and start asking how many I want, then freak out say the unnatural and incomplete comments.

So, if you don't have a nosy and judgemental family, if you've never clashed with someone you hoped you would be spending the rest of your life with, or if it isn't expected of you to be hormonal and gaga over babies, then sure you haven't seen the extent of the stigma. These are strangers overreacting and stigmatizing (in my experience) they are people who I am close to and who therefore think they know what is best for me who are the most judgemental. 

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2013, 10:47:17 AM »
The most extreme reactions I received, which were more than raised eyebrows were
a) from family (many in my family are religious)
b) men I was dating very seriously, and when we started to talk about our ideas for the future and they found out about the not wanting kids thing they. got. mean. (they, as in this has happened more than once)
c) women who have children, who go on and on about how much they love their kids, and start asking how many I want, then freak out say the unnatural and incomplete comments.

So, if you don't have a nosy and judgemental family, if you've never clashed with someone you hoped you would be spending the rest of your life with, or if it isn't expected of you to be hormonal and gaga over babies, then sure you haven't seen the extent of the stigma. These are strangers overreacting and stigmatizing (in my experience) they are people who I am close to and who therefore think they know what is best for me who are the most judgemental.

For what it's worth:  I got a bit of flack (as a man) for my decision as well.  It was mostly from family... but also from acquaintance-level friends.  It was mostly in my 20s and 30s.  After that, I guess I was either accepted or "no longer in the prime to have kids" and people sort of shut up.

Elaine

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2013, 10:53:04 AM »
If you're interested in more current information about childfree people and responses/studies you should check out : http://www.childlessbychoiceproject.com/


ace1224

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2013, 11:08:15 AM »
i get flack at work about "how are ok with only one?" "its not fair to him" "don't you want more" "how could you not want more" "i don't get it, you must love kids you have one"
i have now started fucking with them all.  i won't go into my inappropriate responses because i don't want to offend anyone here but yeah, needless to say people leave me alone now.

its like you can't win for losing now matter what your situation is.  hell, i am guilty as hell of judging people with a lot of kids (like those duggars man!)

smalllife

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #110 on: October 03, 2013, 11:13:42 AM »
@grantmeaname: I would agree that the younger generation, especially those that have not yet started having kids definitely have less of an issue or don't even care.  The rate of people choosing not to have children is rising.  Among my friends no one cares, but family members, older coworkers, doctors, and random people who see me with my boyfriend all take an unhealthy interest in the future potential output of my uterus. 

I would suggest doing a brief search of "childfree by choice" - there have been a number of articles lately about the subject.  (A few from Times Magazine: http://ideas.time.com/childfree/). 

Anecdotal examples:

-My gynecologist refused to tie my tubes because I might change my mind, never mind that 99.9% of those that regret tubals are those who already have children.  If I was sixteen and pregnant he would be happy to help me with the pregnancy.  That's unfair, but it's life.  30 seems to be the magical age of medical adulthood, so I will try again then.

-Former coworkers treated me like a pariah because I somehow threatened their ideas about life - all had bad relationships that they were hanging onto because they didn't want to raise a kid on their own, and they couldn't fathom the thought that someone would choose otherwise.  Some people believe that because they were aimless until having a child that it is impossible for others to find meaning in life without one.  And yes, I was told to my face that a coworkers child was more important than my free time after work.   And no, I never brought up the subject or rubbed it in their faces (I even stopped talking about my weekends because all I would get was "Oh I wish I could do that" or "You just wait")

-Any child-free forum is full of more examples, from the downright awful (parents disowning their children) to the simply annoying (Oh you got married? When are you having kids?)

NinetyFour

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2013, 12:06:28 PM »
I was (am) #5 of 7 kids.  You'd think my parents wanted kids, right?  Well, it seemed that we were just a general bother to my dad.  Not sure why he "wanted" 7 of us.

Also, (maybe related to what I said above), when we became adults, the two siblings who got married and procreated certainly got more attention and respect from my dad.  At one point, he had decided to split his estate equally among the kids AND the grandkids.  I (single and childfree) objected, and my mother got him to change his will.

EK

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2013, 12:22:31 PM »
I'm 26, no kids.  I do plan on having a child (A child.  As in one and only one.) in 3-5ish years from now when we're less vulnerable as far as employment and we're on decently solid financial footing.  If not for my uncertain future employment options without going back to school, I would probably be trying to get pregnant right now.  Hindsight is 20/20 though.  I made the choices I made and I don't really regret most of them.

When I got married earlier this year people starting asking a lot more frequently (even though my husband and I were together for almost 8 years before we finally got around to having a wedding) when we are going to have kids!  One of my grandmothers in particular really seems eager for us to procreate and was gossiping (not in a mean spirited way or anything) with other family members about if I was pregnant after I visited her a couple months ago.  Plenty people in my extended family are child-free by choice so I dont think I would feel stigmatized by them if I chose not to have a child! but my parents and grandparents will be just over the moon when we have a baby.

jfer_rose

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2013, 01:40:04 PM »
Re: childless stigma.

The work I do relates to preventing injuries/death of children among other things. I was working on a project and was meeting with someone who was opposed to it. She asked me if I had kids, and when I said no, she said that without being a mother I really couldn't know that the project would improve safety. Despite the data I had from actual research studies that showed the project would.

Also, I have a sibling that didn't have a kid until later in life and another sibling who did marry but never had kids and I've heard the negative things family members said about them (along the lines of what another poster mentioned, it isn't a  legitimate marriage if you aren't at least trying to have kids). Fortunately, the only thing family members have directed at me are that they are praying for my love life (although my Mom said I was no longer a spring chicken when I was 23 years old and still single).

So yeah, I continue to encounter stigma about those who don't want kids. Although it gives me so much hope for the future that there are college students who have trouble imagining that this stigma exists in today's world.

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2013, 04:54:03 PM »
Although it gives me so much hope for the future that there are college students who have trouble imagining that this stigma exists in today's world.
That's a novel interpretation. Glad I could help. Ignorance ... a force for good!

HappyHoya

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2013, 02:03:20 PM »
Although it gives me so much hope for the future that there are college students who have trouble imagining that this stigma exists in today's world.
That's a novel interpretation. Glad I could help. Ignorance ... a force for good!

I also appreciated this comment. I don't think not seeing the stigma is ignorance, I think it's a sign our moral priorities our changing. Although it's tough for me to image (late 20s), we have to remember that women our aunts', grandmothers', and perhaps even mothers' age often did not get to choose motherhood or not. I am convinced that a lot of these beliefs developed so strongly so that women's psyches could survive the complete lack of choice with something so personal and so changing. To be completely honest, I am looking forward to the generational shift (a nice way of saying: these people dying off), that leaves a lot of these moral touchstones behind.

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2013, 06:09:05 PM »
I'm 35, DH is 37. We are definitely child free by choice. Love kids, especially my 7 nieces and nephews. However, I have never wanted to have a biological child, and my DH was more than fine with that.

My "favorite" response(s) when people learn I don't plan on having children
  • But you don't really know real love until you have children of your own
  • Oh, you're still young. You have plenty of time
  • Really?  Don't you think that's selfish?  Oh, is it because you hate kids?

The scenario that hurt the most though is when I overheard several coworkers saying I shouldn't get my (already requested, already approved, already booked) vacation time because it happened to fall on Fall Break of the local school system. They were trying to get my supervisor to revoke my vacation time, cause I didn't need my vacation then because I don't even have kids.
 

geekette

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2013, 09:54:54 PM »
"The authorities have recommended that we not procreate" - stops 'em in their tracks.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2013, 10:40:20 PM »
I'm married, in my late 20s and my wife and I plan on having kids.  I feel like I should probably have a good reason laid out.  Not wanting them is a perfectly good reason not to have kids but wanting them seems a bit insufficient as a reason to have kids.  Unfortunately, unlike Kriegsspiel, I'm not sure I can make the claim that my genes need to be passed on.  My wife's are pretty cool, though.

I found a lot of the stories here pretty interesting.  I never realized non-family members would really care if others had kids or not.  I can understand why someone who had kids would be invested in the idea of having grand kids (although, hopefully they would realize it's not their choice), but I don't get why a third party would care.  I am not sure I have any problem with people asking "when are you going to have kids?", though.  I just shrug as my answer since the idea of answering that is bizarre to me.  Still, I think of it along the same lines as "when are you going to buy a car?" and not something particularly rude.  I think when people press beyond the question that's when it gets rude.

boy_bye

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2013, 06:20:04 AM »
I think this stigma goes even deeper than "do you want kids or not." I think it goes to the heart of what women are socialized to do from the moment we are born, which is to take care of the people around us, even if it means sacrificing our own dreams and desires. There's an expectation that women are good at care taking, and that if they don't enjoy it, there's something wrong with them -- they're selfish, they're cold, etc.

There's also the expectation that if someone needs to be taken care of, it should rightfully be done by a woman. Very little of this is spoken out loud ... It's mostly just embedded in people's behavior. I mostly noticed it when I was taking care of my grandma in the last few years of her life. Her expectations of me, and even the expectations of the medical and social work professionals  I encountered, were vastly different from the expectations folks had of my brother.

I don't think it was a conscious thing ... I think these people just expected me to be okay with being in the room when they'd change her (whereas they'd always warn my brother and ask him to leave the room) ... When some bureaucratic task had to be done it was assumed that I'd be happy to comply, and I definitely felt the negative vibes from the professional care-takers when I balked at such things. Much much more was asked of me than of him, and again I don't think it was conscious. It's just the default setting in our society. Women = care taking.

And it's true that I probably was a lot better at helping my grandma out than my brother was ... But it doesn't mean that it was something I was like pumped to do. And I have to admit that the embedded sexism in this situation really did piss me off.

I think it's the same with having kids. For basically the first time in human history, women have the choice as to whether they want to devote their lives to taking care of babies, and when we choose not to, it can be threatening or just plain incomprehensible to some people.

But it's just a remnant of the thousands of years during which a woman's inherent value was decided by other people, and how pleasing/useful she could be to them.

So it's no surprise that it's taking some time for people to get comfortable with women choosing to live for ourselves rather than for others. (And I'm not saying that all women who choose to have children are merely shells of people living only for others. But it definitely happens, and in fact it is still the default setting in our culture.)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 06:22:36 AM by madgeylou »

ritchie70

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2013, 11:57:41 AM »
BUT I am also very concerned about having them because I have babysit enough to know how hard it is when it's 4am and the baby won't stop crying. As someone said above:
Quote
we tend to like things peaceful, orderly, and without any stress, and kids tend to be anything but that!
This is my concern. Both the BF and I are easily stressed and prefer our home environment to be a peaceful, tidy sanctuary. And babies are not compatible with that :-(

You know, I think that the amount of things like 4 AM varies by child a lot. Our daughter is 18 months and I could probably count the number of times she's had us up (once the overnight feedings stopped) on my fingers. Maybe one hand.

And she's forced us to be much more tidy than we were, not less. Plus she actually spontaneously put her own toys away this morning!

Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2013, 12:08:55 PM »
BUT I am also very concerned about having them because I have babysit enough to know how hard it is when it's 4am and the baby won't stop crying. As someone said above:
Quote
we tend to like things peaceful, orderly, and without any stress, and kids tend to be anything but that!
This is my concern. Both the BF and I are easily stressed and prefer our home environment to be a peaceful, tidy sanctuary. And babies are not compatible with that :-(

You know, I think that the amount of things like 4 AM varies by child a lot. Our daughter is 18 months and I could probably count the number of times she's had us up (once the overnight feedings stopped) on my fingers. Maybe one hand.

And she's forced us to be much more tidy than we were, not less. Plus she actually spontaneously put her own toys away this morning!

Don't worry, that'll stop as she gets older ;-)

Adventine

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2013, 10:00:34 AM »
I think this stigma goes even deeper than "do you want kids or not." I think it goes to the heart of what women are socialized to do from the moment we are born, which is to take care of the people around us, even if it means sacrificing our own dreams and desires. There's an expectation that women are good at care taking, and that if they don't enjoy it, there's something wrong with them -- they're selfish, they're cold, etc.

There's also the expectation that if someone needs to be taken care of, it should rightfully be done by a woman. Very little of this is spoken out loud ... It's mostly just embedded in people's behavior. I mostly noticed it when I was taking care of my grandma in the last few years of her life. Her expectations of me, and even the expectations of the medical and social work professionals  I encountered, were vastly different from the expectations folks had of my brother.

I don't think it was a conscious thing ... I think these people just expected me to be okay with being in the room when they'd change her (whereas they'd always warn my brother and ask him to leave the room) ... When some bureaucratic task had to be done it was assumed that I'd be happy to comply, and I definitely felt the negative vibes from the professional care-takers when I balked at such things. Much much more was asked of me than of him, and again I don't think it was conscious. It's just the default setting in our society. Women = care taking.

And it's true that I probably was a lot better at helping my grandma out than my brother was ... But it doesn't mean that it was something I was like pumped to do. And I have to admit that the embedded sexism in this situation really did piss me off.

I think it's the same with having kids. For basically the first time in human history, women have the choice as to whether they want to devote their lives to taking care of babies, and when we choose not to, it can be threatening or just plain incomprehensible to some people.

But it's just a remnant of the thousands of years during which a woman's inherent value was decided by other people, and how pleasing/useful she could be to them.

So it's no surprise that it's taking some time for people to get comfortable with women choosing to live for ourselves rather than for others. (And I'm not saying that all women who choose to have children are merely shells of people living only for others. But it definitely happens, and in fact it is still the default setting in our culture.)

This, this, this.

hybrid

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2013, 01:39:12 PM »
I'm 35, DH is 37. We are definitely child free by choice. Love kids, especially my 7 nieces and nephews. However, I have never wanted to have a biological child, and my DH was more than fine with that.

My "favorite" response(s) when people learn I don't plan on having children
  • But you don't really know real love until you have children of your own
  • Oh, you're still young. You have plenty of time
  • Really?  Don't you think that's selfish?  Oh, is it because you hate kids?

The scenario that hurt the most though is when I overheard several coworkers saying I shouldn't get my (already requested, already approved, already booked) vacation time because it happened to fall on Fall Break of the local school system. They were trying to get my supervisor to revoke my vacation time, cause I didn't need my vacation then because I don't even have kids.

From what I've experienced over the years, the pressure to have kids increases significantly once a woman hits a certain age and increases with time.  For the younger folks that have commented, perhaps you are on to something, perhaps this is a generational thing.  I have my doubts.  I suspect that it has more to do with your age.  In college the pressure is on NOT to have kids.  Once a woman is married, settled into her career, a little older, many of her friends around her start having kids, expectations change.  You are 23 and don't have kids?  Well of course you don't dear....

Um, you're 35 and don't have kids?

BlueMR2

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2013, 05:50:39 PM »
We're both 39.  No kids, no desire for them.  With missing whatever gene makes one care about kids and feeling that bringing kids into today's world is a very selfish & irresponsible thing to do, nobody ever bugs us about having kids.

wepner

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2013, 08:20:50 PM »
We're both 39.  No kids, no desire for them.  With missing whatever gene makes one care about kids and feeling that bringing kids into today's world is a very selfish & irresponsible thing to do, nobody ever bugs us about having kids.

What's so bad about todays world?

patrickza

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #126 on: October 09, 2013, 04:12:17 AM »
I'm 34, with a 6yr old. Best mistake I ever made!

That said, I'm done. I'd get myself fixed but I don't like getting cut voluntarily.

The GF wants the whole family, settling down life, she knows how I feel and it's a sore point...

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #127 on: October 09, 2013, 08:28:24 AM »
I'm 34, with a 6yr old. Best mistake I ever made!

That said, I'm done. I'd get myself fixed but I don't like getting cut voluntarily.

The GF wants the whole family, settling down life, she knows how I feel and it's a sore point...

That will always be one too...it never changes, so clear and upfront about that or it only leads to resentment down the line.

hybrid

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #128 on: October 09, 2013, 10:48:44 AM »
That said, I'm done. I'd get myself fixed but I don't like getting cut voluntarily.

My procedure was simple, almost painless (the sedative knocked me out, I slept through it), and I watched TV for a weekend.  No biggie.  You are risking an oops baby. Biggie. Forget what you like, you should get it done.

legacyoneup

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #129 on: October 09, 2013, 06:26:58 PM »
No kids as yet. Want just one .. only one. Maybe in a year or two after I find that someone special and am financially better positioned.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2013, 09:44:16 AM »
31 and married, no kids. DH and I go round and round in circles about this....neither of us are sure what we want. If we had one, it would be only one, but so far, life together is so amazing that we really can't see changing anything. My only worry is that I will pass the age of child bearing and suddenly be struck with overwhelming regret.

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2013, 09:58:56 AM »
Me 39 wife 37 no kids and no desire for any. I had vasectomy at age 37 with then girlfriend, now wife's blessing.

When dating in my 30's it was difficult to find a woman without kids and who didn't want them. So the women here in this post are highly desirable to men like me.

I feel no stigma at all and my wife has never mentioned it. We are too busy going places and having child-free spontaneous adventures to even notice what the breeders are saying I guess.

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2013, 08:48:00 PM »
I thought of this thread earlier this week when I discovered that one of my employers changed his mind about not working Christmas Eve and will be opening the office for the day. He needs a staff of 4 for that day to cover various roles / tasks. 3 of those positions have been selected, 2 of which were selected because they have no children. My understanding is that these coworkers didn't volunteer, we're not asked, they were told we chose you from your department because you don't have kids. The third coworker has children, who are grown. The fourth role has yet to be filled; I am preparing myself for that conversation because I suspect I will be approached, since I have no children.

It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off. I'm not sure how I feel about how all of this has played out.

HappierAtHome

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2013, 09:02:54 PM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

rubybeth

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #134 on: October 14, 2013, 06:48:34 AM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

I've noticed that regularly coming in late and leaving early, and getting special permission to work from home, is also perfectly acceptable as long as you have kids.

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2013, 07:52:24 AM »
On another note, I too am really surprised by how many people here DON'T want kids. I thought it was an extremely rare thing to not want them. Maybe society is programmed to want kids... and with those of us that are "unplugged" from the drone life everyone else is living (and make our own choices), the numbers are skewed.

Interesting. When I chose to have a kid, I did not realize I was not making my own choice. =-)

wing117

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2013, 08:31:07 AM »
I'm 26, SO is 24. We are starting to lean more towards the no kids category, or the "one kid when we are in our early 30s". But definitely not in our 20's. I have some primal desire to pass on my family line, yet I also know that my cousin's have done a fine job of that. My amazing dog is more than enough to keep me happy right now.

Coming from a K12 working background, plus all the crap you see in public and with co-workers has really put us off to kids. We know they can be incredibly rewarding, but so are lots of other things. So I guess I'm in the 'meh' category.

Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

On this note, I've been fostering a large "We work to live" mentality instead of "We live to work" at my employment. The last year has seen a huge swing in folks no longer coming in early, staying late, working on the weekends, etc... and more conscious of their lives outside of work - regardless of children.  When I have to, I'll use my dog as my excuse to get home quickly. But yes, the mentality is that those without children are more "free and available" to work the extra hours.

When I was in consulting, I would explain to my boss that I can not travel as much as he was asking (90% travel) because of my commitments to the home. He couldn't fathom that there were any because I didn't have any children. Just an SO of 9 years and a dog I loved very much. I left after he then drafted me into a long term engagement taking place in multiple cities of the US where I'd only be home on the weekend once a month. Those with kids on the team weren't even considered for the role.

JessieImproved

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2013, 08:36:53 AM »
I have kids (two small ones), but I just wanted to offer up words of support.  I think that if society didn't pressure people to have children, and everyone had only the number that they ACTUALLY wanted, then our overpopulation problem would be solved.  Having children is a serious decision, raising them is NOT easy, and nobody else should be able to tell you what you want and what is "natural".  And just for the record, I don't think I'm any "more of a woman" now that I have children. :-)

pachnik

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2013, 08:42:43 AM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

+1

oldtoyota

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2013, 07:24:05 PM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

+1

This is all relative. I see childless people leave early because they are working on MBA programs.

At places where I've worked, I've never noticed people getting cut slack because they have children.

Also, it seems a little antiquated that people would have to "stay late" to work on a project. I sometimes leave at the "normal" time, come home and work the "second shift" (which is parenting) and then log back on to work after the kidlet's bedtime.

So, who's to say the workers with children are not working more later in the evening?

wepner

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #140 on: October 15, 2013, 07:05:07 AM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

+1

I think this isn't as unfair as you are making it out to be.

IF (I'm not convinced it is very widespread) parents do get special treatment everyone can benefit by having more time with their parents when you are kids. It's easy to notice your coworker getting time off for some sort if lame kid related activity but it's impossible to know how many poor schlubs were hard at work on some project while your dad was chaperoning your field trip in 4th grade.

hybrid

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #141 on: October 15, 2013, 09:27:08 AM »
At a law firm having kids and then spending time with them is not the formula to make partner, especially if you are female.  Billing your ass off for seven or eight years makes you partner.  But I have seen it happen all the same in recent years, so perhaps times are changing.

Katnina

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #142 on: October 15, 2013, 09:51:50 AM »
I'm 32, happily married to a 34yo man, and we are never having kids.  We are both INTJ, need quiet & alone time, and could not handle being needed 24/7.
I like kids that are well-behaved & can be given back to their parents.
Planning on being an awesome, involved aunt to my sister's child when he/she arrives, and that will be enough for me.
But we may be foster parents to older lgbt teens when we are older, since there is a huge need for non-bigot foster families for out kids.  But teens aren't really kids, more like quasi-adults who make lots of bad decisions ;).

Edited to add: hubs' mom had his half brother when hubs was 17 and still living at home, so he's seen how hard it is to take care of babies.  And I was a nanny so I get it too!  So yes, we do know what we are missing.  And no, he's not going to leave me because I won't provide him with babies (just refuting a few of the idiotic statements people in the real world have said to me when they found out we are childfree by choice!)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:56:45 AM by Katnina »

Hoerwolle

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #143 on: October 15, 2013, 01:58:22 PM »
Hi!

35 male here, married, trying to get kids right now (OK, not *right* now, I'm sitting at the computer, but one should be growing by the end of the year) :) Very happy to read it's possible not to go bankrupt by having kids ;)


Insanity

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #144 on: October 15, 2013, 02:27:50 PM »
Very happy to read it's possible not to go bankrupt by having kids ;)

It is also possible to go bankrupt, crazy, and sleep deprived :)
(the later is almost a guarantee -- unless you are lucky enough to have a wife like a friend of mine who got up with the kid all the time).

Koala0924

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #145 on: October 15, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »
Quote
It certainly feels like the implication is that those without children (or perhaps who have grown children) are not as deserving to have that time off.

I see this attitude all the time. I've also noticed that leaving on time is perfectly acceptable if you have children to get home to. Otherwise, why can't you stay late and work on that project??

+1

I think this isn't as unfair as you are making it out to be.

IF (I'm not convinced it is very widespread) parents do get special treatment everyone can benefit by having more time with their parents when you are kids. It's easy to notice your coworker getting time off for some sort if lame kid related activity but it's impossible to know how many poor schlubs were hard at work on some project while your dad was chaperoning your field trip in 4th grade.

Wepner, would you care to elaborate on your point?  I'm not sure I'm completely understanding your position / thought process. If I'm understanding your position correctly you're saying
1) that perhaps parents don't get special treatment and
2) IF parents do get special treatment it's really not unfair?

I totally agree that parents receiving / not receiving "special treatment" may or may not be widespread. That type of anecdotal evidence can vary a great deal from person to person, and I'm unaware of any scientific data or studies that point to a definitive answer. However, I do have issue with the second point. If 2 workers, alike in experience / pay / compensation level receive different amounts of paid time off only due to one being a parent I find that grossly unfair. Of course it's wonderful for children to have 2 loving, present parents. It's not wonderful for child free workers to be required to work more hours than their parent counterparts.

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #146 on: October 15, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »
Does anyone else think that part of the difference is self-regulation? That parents are more likely to ask for time off or flexible arrangements when needed, and that people without kids don't think to ask?

HappierAtHome

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #147 on: October 15, 2013, 07:20:49 PM »
Quote
I think this isn't as unfair as you are making it out to be.

IF (I'm not convinced it is very widespread) parents do get special treatment everyone can benefit by having more time with their parents when you are kids. It's easy to notice your coworker getting time off for some sort if lame kid related activity but it's impossible to know how many poor schlubs were hard at work on some project while your dad was chaperoning your field trip in 4th grade.

Quote
I can assure you that my hubby doesn't get slack for having children. And he works plenty of weekends and nights after they have gone to bed. Just because he is leaving early once a week for soccer practice doesn't mean he is working less hours. He puts in 70 hours on a typical week. This month, it is much more.

I'm guessing the employees you mention are "getting slack" for the sake of their kids. Kids are much better off if they are able to have two parents involved in their lives.

Wow. This got heated fast.

Personally I have no problem with somebody leaving on time because they have kids. My problem is that employers shouldn't be encouraging anyone to stay late for unpaid overtime, and it's generally the childfree who have this pressure put on them at my workplace (I can't say whether this happens at other offices - but it definitely does at mine). And that, my friends, is discrimination on the grounds of whether or not you have children. Which I suppose is at least a choice, unlike other forms of discrimination like gender, age, race or sexual orientation. But I'm not sure if it being a choice makes it better or worse for discrimination on those grounds to occur. I can't say I'm a huge fan of treating people differently in the workplace for any reason other than ability and attitude.

In an ideal world, we'd all be working less to do the things that matter more to us than work, no matter what those things are - childraising, volunteering, painting little figurines of teddy bears dressed up as pirates.

grantmeaname

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #148 on: October 15, 2013, 07:55:47 PM »
My problem is that employers shouldn't be encouraging anyone to stay late for unpaid overtime
Eh. Isn't that part of the deal in most industries in exchange for being salaried? Maybe Oz is different...

HappierAtHome

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Re: who here doesn't have kids but wants them or never wants them?
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2013, 09:20:13 PM »
Quote
Eh. Isn't that part of the deal in most industries in exchange for being salaried? Maybe Oz is different...

No, it's not different here. Most people work more than their 'standard' hours, some work quite a lot more (I have a BIL who works a 70 hour week - yuk). I'm just a bit militant about work life balance. I choose to stay with an employer who at least makes some advances towards work life balance than earn twice the money and give up my entire waking life to work.

I just think that you should be able to make plans to go do something after work (whether that's childraising or volleyball or whatever), without your employer having the ability to put pressure on you to work beyond your standard hours. And where that employer chooses who they put pressure on based on whether or not they have children... yes, that is discrimination on the basis of being childfree. Which is no more valid than any other form of discrimination. I don't think it's okay to pressure one person to stay later than another because they aren't married, or because they're male, or because they've chosen to live close to work so they won't have a long commute (yes I've heard that one before)... Neither is it okay to pressure someone to stay late because they have chosen not to have children.